Qantas culture will pollute JetStar

[max autobrakes]

We've all heard it a million times from management on both sides,
Can't have Qantas pilots polluting the JetStar culture.
The MOU was never indended to be honoured etc, etc.
A simple question was asked of me the other day and I must admit I don't have an answer for that question.
"Well if Qantas culture , culture from a full service airline, is so abhorrent to JetStar management, how come their training section is so full of ex-Ansett people, weren't they from a full service airline?"

Open to answers.

[Mud Skipper]

Max, lets look at the bloke thanks to http://www.leishman-associates.com.au/ami/presenters.php
http://www.leishman-associates.com.au/ami/images/sp_joyce.jpg
Alan Joyce
Chief Executive Officer, Jetstar
Alan Joyce was appointed Chief Executive Officer of Jetstar in October 2003.
Alan has more than 16 years’ experience in the airline industry, principally in fleet and network planning and business improvement.
Most recently he worked for Qantas Airways as Group General Manager Network, responsible for Network Strategy, Network Analysis, Schedules Planning and Schedules Variation.
Prior to his role at Qantas, he worked at Ansett Airlines in a variety of roles including Vice President / General Manager Network and Schedules Planning and Route Development Manager. As Vice President at Ansett, Alan oversaw Network Planning, Schedules Planning, Fleet Planning, Demand Forecasting and Route Economics.
Alan spent nine years at Aer Lingus working in a variety of roles that covered network planning, business improvements and fleet planning. He also played a key role in devising Aer Lingus’ low cost strategy.
Alan holds a Master of Science degree from Trinity College, Dublin.
So he comes to us from Ansett which sadly finished the way it did. Prior to this Aer Lingus, probably an airline with great people but struggling from what I understand and a target for a Ryanair takeover. Great credentials.
Whilst we can all sing our own song and compare our shlongs, it must be said the companies he's been associated with have not really flourished.
But he 'knows' the Ansett pilots from past association so it's no surprise Jetstar has becoming a mini-me of said company, nasty Qantas pilots are not welcome.
What has go me intrigued though was him speaking to mainline Qantas people recently, Geoff did the spin in Sydney and Alan (Jetstar) in Melbourne.
Mel: Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology (RMIT)
Lecture Theatre
336-342 Swanston Street
Storey Hall Building 16 (at the street entrance)
09.30 - 11.30
Speaker: Alan Joyce
This meeting has already occured - don't go to RMIT at 9.30:}
I didn't bother to go as I'm disengaged to the max now, perhaps Alan can also put Qantas mainline down to airlines he's been associated with which have gone bad.:hmm:

[toolish]

It is the Qantas culture not the Ansett or full service airlines culture that is the problem :ok:

But seriously we know this whole polluting thing is just a big MANAGEMENT wank

[hoss]

"Qantas pilots polluting the Jetstar culture!"

Is it just me or do others see 'shades' of Dick Marmon, be careful.

[Sunfish]

What about the Qantas safety culture and it's world wide reputation for safety courtesy of Dustin Hoffman in "Rain Man"?

You know - all those wonderful dedicated australian engineers, pilots whose skills were honed flying for thousands of hours in the outback who can put a 747 down on a claypan if necessary, and those resourceful cabin crew who can do open heart surgery with a few knives and forks from first class?

Of course we'de like that to "pollute" Jetstar wouldn't we?

[Mobi LAME]

Gingerbeers meet all kinds of pilots and there are all the 'ex-s' at J*. We don't see different cultures but there is also the occasional ****** and J* isn't unique in having one or two but here is a pearler. Monitoring the company frequency the other day as flights called up for bays and to pass on fuel uplifts etc, when this person asked the TAC whether she was busy (does a bear sh!t in the woods). We thought this was most considerate of the said pilot inquiring as to the workload of said ground based work colleague. The TAC replied cautiously as to why such info was required and was there a problem. No, no problem at this end but if she wasn't too busy could she duck into the terminal and get them a couple of cups of coffee (which they would reimburse her for later) it would be greatly appreciated. Don't know where he came from but it took a while for us to pick ourselves up from the floor.Don't you hate it when you laugh so much your sides hurt.

[Pete Conrad]

Ha..that be the ex Impulse culture!! "can you get me a toasted cheese sandwich while your at it" ... You should hear the ex Impulse legends across the Tasman on their discreet frequency!!..talk about w@nker BBQ scene!! You can almost just make out the Top Gun anthem playing in the background... They got kicked off 123.45 as it was becoming beyond a joke!

.

[Mobi LAME]

No it wasn't, I've been listening to Tech crew for about 5 years now and I've never heard that accent before. He is a new boy on the block, definitely not of the Impulse school. All the Impulse Techies I know wouldn't have the gall to try a caper like that.

[Sue Ridgepipe]

Can't have Qantas pilots polluting the JetStar culture.
The MOU was never indended to be honoured etc, etc.

Well it looks like all that has been thrown out the window.
5 Jetstar A330 commands were recently advertised to any budding QF F/Os ready for the change of seats (and with some spare cash lying around to pay for an endorsement if not already endorsed on type).

And it seems that no less than 50 applications have been received to fill said positions.

After the barrage the Jetstar guys copped for signing off on their EBA, you'd have to assume no one from QF would go there to work under those conditions, so what exactly will they get?

Will it be the same pay scale as they are currently on at QF, or perhaps the same package as the direct entry captains employed from OS?

[Mud Skipper]

After the barrage the Jetstar guys copped for signing off on their EBA, you'd have to assume no one from QF would go there to work under those conditions, so what exactly will they get?
Your logic flows like a blocked Sue Ridgepipe.

RH et al, deserved a barrage for there was no need to accept such poor conditions. These are however the conditions which now exist and, moving on, our F/O's must now, pragmatically, decide if they really want a LHS so badly.

For just a little more money 330 F/O's will go from a life of leisure, abet with a reduced income, to working like a dog for 3 years with few days at home and lots of sitting in average hotels around asia and Honolulu. At the same time they will be helping to destroy their very own future pay and conditions.
Will J* get 5 suitable applicants, most likely. But they will probably not get them that quickly or easily. Only the top 45% of our 330 F/O's have the experience requirements, that cuts the number of candidates down to around 50, 6 of these pilots are relatively senior and could have bid for 767 Commands or better long ago (they are out), down to 44 applicants. 24 are either Melbourne based or commute and by going to J* they will loose their current staff travel and have to start day one. No staff travel priority and having to be in Sydney on AV days means next to no time at home, perhaps 2 days a week. The majority of these pilots have young families, possibly working partners, safe to say 20 would just not be interested. We are now down to 24 potential applicants. You'll need only 20% to jump.........

I don't think even 20% are that myopic to not consider if they hold out the'll still get a command within 2 years. A command with fair pay and conditions which they have earnt and reinforced by not supporting anything less.

When you hear people use terms like fighting for conditions, that's precisly what this is going to be, a fight. There is a cost involved and that's these guys having to wait a little longer for the LHS, short term pain.

No doubt however lets say 2-3 go for the MOU upgrade. Looking further down the list there is possibly 8 330 S/O who may have the experience requirements from past employment (Ansett) and a few are willing to fork out the $ to get there careers moving again, that will give the company the 5 pilots they are seeking even before you consider pilots from other fleets. Great J* is happy they have the pilots they need, abet some may require a little more training than they had hoped.

2 more J* A330's arrive soon and will also need to be crewed and current 330 pilots will be off to train for the 787 before too long. This is only the first offer of slots under the MOU I'm sure. There will be many more vacancies advertised this year and perhaps even under better conditions than the JPC negotiated deal which even the A320 pilots are reticent to work under.
At the very least anyone being interviewed should be asking for better T&C's, perhaps we'll see a AWA for Qantas pilots after all.

This is the front line of the fight.:ok:

[ShockWave]

Didn't Fridays Australian report that QF 767 fleet was going to go to Jet star for domestic ops? What happens then to all the QF 767 crews and others hopeing to get an transition/upgrade on to it?

[rammel]

The report in fridays Australian, was that 4 international 767's were being transferred to domestic. And that Jester was getting 9 new A320.

Back to the topic now. A couple of weeks ago there was an internal vacancy notice for expressions of intrest from people in QF who would like a secondment to J* for 12 months in Operations. Doesn't this go against their whole ethos also.

[Hydrant]

Mud Skipper just reading your post you quote that only the "top 45% of our A330 F/O'S have the experience requirements".



Just out of interest, what insular, backward thinking requirements have been placed on getting a A330 command that doesn't allow the other 55% of A330 QF F/O's to qualify for a command at J*?

[Mud Skipper]

Went for coffee with an F/O whom had applied and he was said they want 1500 hours F/O widebody I think, so I guess you'd have to be online as a PLH for about two years or so. Some may have come from the 767 I guess, they may already have this requirement and some, X Ansett, S/O's & F/O's may have been on the 767 or 747 over there and also qualify?

See what happens:bored:

[Chimbu chuckles]

So while an FO with 1500 hrs RHS in mainline qualifies for J* widebody command current J* captains with several thousand hours 717 command and current command on A320 does not because he doesn't yet have 1000 hrs command A320.

:confused:

[Mud Skipper]

Errrrr,
Chimbu, you'll probably find those accepted have 12-15K hours total and have been in this or another airline over 12 years. Some perhaps x 89 crew and some from years in the regionals, lots of experience all up.
They would have had a command years ago if J* had not been set up at any rate so your poor bleeding less than a 1000 hr 320 drivers will have to wait perhaps a few months longer for a 330 Command - Big deal.
The F/O's are coming over in the terms of the MOU, these slots are set aside for Qantas Mainline pilots, that has nothing to do with the experience of J* A320 drivers.
Just how would any of those have several thousand 717 hrs anyhow, didn't think the aircraft was around that long - must be getting old - time speeds up ya know. How at anyrate is that experience going to help them get around in Honolulu or Japan etc. Any who are equally experienced will no doubt still get an A330 slot this year and if they have any brains will most likely be happier on the 320 as international flying has hairs on it in comparison to the local routes and the pay being offered doesn't come close to making up the difference.

[Keg]

These slots too are in the J* seniority system post the MoU date which was only a few years ago so the J* crew who are 'missing out' have been with them for only a few years. The QF crew going across have most likely been with QF for in excess of seven or eight years- probably all before QF even bought Impulse to start off with.

No J* pilot before the MoU date is missing out because my understanding is that they're all senior to the QF 'ghost' numbers anyway. Those employed since would (or should) know that 7:20 slots are ghost numbers for QF drivers. They should also know that they have 7:20 ghost numbers in QF as well. These numbers will one day qualify for mainline F/O and command slots.

[TineeTim]

Mud skip,

What was the motivation of the bloke you caught up with? Any insight as to the others? It only makes sense to me if you're planning on heading elsewhere. This whole concept of which seat you sit in being more important than your pay packet is foreign to me but then I fly to live, not the other way around. Each to his own I guess. TT

[Mud Skipper]

Tinee,

Yes, it was suggested it gave him the op to move on as there was no such thing as a secure job in Qantas. Pilots are more worried about themselves now than giving 2 rats about the roo.

Love for the company and flying are being ripped away from us;

your pay packet

is all an accountant can see and it will going to cost them several times over.

I see and can understand your attitude, I just don't like it as it walms on me.

[puff]

Mudskipper - Perhaps related, perhaps not but back in the old Ansett days a lot of the F/Os were lifestylers who stayed in their preferrered base as a F/O rather than take a command on an a/c type they didn't want, or a location they didn't want. Whats the hurry a lot said i've got my whole career.

After the collapse a lot of the F/Os found it a lot harder to get work on the international market, and some of the guys more junior to them who had some command time by taking the crap basing somewhere found work easily on the basis of the command time.

Rightly or wrongly perhaps this is the reasons why some guys are electing on taking commands at JQ? Lets face it a lot of people are either lifestylers or career seekers not just in aviation.

Think it's true that for everyone in aviation after AN went the notion of a job for life in australian aviation. It was crushed forever and a lot of people are a lot more cautious in their decisions since.

[blow.n.gasket]

Which might go some way towards the reason why less and less young Australians are contemplating becoming pilots.
Costs too much , no job security, crap conditions, ****e pay, etc, etc.
Interesting times indeed!:{