F-105

[SE210]

Dear Friends

Could anybody tell me the maximum low level level speed of a F-105?

Merry Christmas.

Cheers

SE210

[Kitbag]

Wiki has it as: Mach 1.1, 836 mph (1,345 km/h) at sea level; Mach 2.08, 1,372 mph (2,208 km/h) at 36,000 ft (11,000 m)

[Gainesy]

Well? What is it then?:suspect:

[Kitbag]

Depends if its African or European, surely? ;)

[LowObservable]

Wiki is quoting all official figures which is fine if that's what you want. The low-level speed is probably in clean condition at max power and could be sustained for about 35 sec before running out of gas. The high-altitude speed is also clean, and on a cold day to boot. I have heard it suggested that by the end of the Thud's career the aircraft were too knackered and modified to go supersonic at all.

[DelaneyT]

Could anybody tell me the maximum low level speed of a F-105?

KITBAG quickly had the answer -- but there must be some larger question you are pursuing ?

Are you particularly interested in the F-105 itself ... or in aircraft low level speeds, generally ??

[Shackman]

Surely it depends whether horizontal or vertical prior to impact!:uhoh:

[DelaneyT]

Surely it depends whether horizontal or vertical prior to impact!:uhoh:


...there was an F-105 that crashed straight down in full afterburner, after complete instrument/electrical failure in IMC {..Vandenberg AFB California, 25+ years back}
:sad:

[brickhistory]

SE 210
Is that at sea level at 15 degC? - (speed of sound datum) ie, circa 725 kts
More to the point - why were they called "Widow Makers" - could ask the GAF!
Low Observable - I think the "Thud" was a B57 employed in Vietnam


Ummm....no.

GAF flew F-104s. No other countries save the US flew the mighty 'Thud.' Although there was an interesting article recently by an RAF exchange officer who claims the last F-105D sortie years ago at Nellis.

B-57 was not the 'Thud.'

[SASless]

The F-105 Thunderchief was nicknamed the "Thud" due to the numbers of losses it suffered in the Vietnam War. The Thuds were the mainstay of the Air Force's effort and as a result had more exposure in combat than other types of aircraft.

There is nothing more impressive than a clean Thud in overdrive in the tree tops!

She is big...loud....and FAST!:)

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I used to go out with a girl fitting that description exactly!

[GeeRam]

There is nothing more impressive than a clean Thud in overdrive in the tree tops!


Recently seen reports that the Collings Foundation are seriously putting together plans to return a 'Thud' to the air to fly alongside it's F-4 and A-4.....:ok:

A certain 'warbird enthusiast and current UK based Eagle driver was salivating at the prospects of volunteering to be checked out in it if it comes to fruition...:)

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Dear Friends
Could anybody tell me the maximum low level level speed of a F-105?
Merry Christmas.
Cheers
SE210

SE

The F-105 Dash-1 (pilot manual) states that on a standard day, with 0 drag index (clean), and in full afterburner, the Thud could get to Mach 1.1.

[BEagle]

Apocryphal story of a radio exchange between a lead and his wingman doing a Pack Six over the nasty bits of Viet Nam.

"Where are you 2?"

"Lead - 2 is at bullseye blah, range blah at blah. An' about a hundred feet!"

"Watchya' doin' down there?"

"A THOUSAND MILES AN HOUR - SOUTH!"

[Yellow Sun]

A USAF Exchange Officer once described it to me as "The Triple Threat Bomber", Bomb 'em, Strafe 'em, Fall On 'em.

YS

[Min Decent Ht]

Beags, same story I guess, low level over Nam (did they use bullseye then?), but the version I heard was:

"2, where are you?"

"I don't know man, but I'm doin' a thousand miles an hour!"


No doubt some F3 mate wants to join in on this debate.... Only one thousand eh, then I selected burner on the other engine, blah blah

I never got one over 800kts, but that's when they were shiney and new....:}

[brickhistory]

Thud trivia:

610 F-105D's built (single seat)
143 F-105Fs built (two seats, most later converted to F-105G Wild Weasels)
334 combat losses in SEA.

Used by the USAF Thunderbirds for first half of 1964 season. One broke in half during a pull-up, rest of the season flown in F-100s.

[Brain Potter]

Must be a candidate for largest/heaviest single-engined aircraft. Any thoughts?

[dakkg651]

Can't think of anythink heavier but there must have been bigger aircraft. Wasn't the Vigilante single engined for example?

Jack Broughton's book Thud Ridge describes flying the 105 beautifully. Nothing faster at low level, could haul an unbelievable load, no turn rate worth a damn, had a real Vulcan cannon up front, vulnerable hydraulic system and a seat which was likely to break your back if used in anger. Loved to have seen one in the flesh. What a great looking bird.

[Pontius Navigator]

The USAF did a trial, back in the early 60s, IIRC, to investigate the lethality of supersonic flight on ground troops. They determined that it was indeed possible to incapacitate, or even kill, ground troops through supersonic overflight.

There was a catch.

The Thud had to fly supersonic at 5 feet. It would probably have killed more enemy using the airbrake as an axe.

[Kitbag]

A5, RA5 Vigilantes were twin engined (GE J79s)

[henry crun]

I was in a tower at an air display when a 105 was practising, the main part was supersonic down the runway at whatever height he, the C/O, wanted.
The squadron exec was in the tower as duty pilot.

The first run, which was at about 50ft, produced a bang but not a very loud one.

The exec took the mic and growled "Yer gonna have to do better than that Colonel".
Next run produced the loudest bang I have heard, and not only gave the tower a good shaking, it also blew a bloke off a ladder about 2 miles away, fortunately without causing injury.

I later asked the Col. what speed the second run was at, and he said "just under 1.1, and it wouldn't go any faster".

[PFR]

It may be of interest but there's a "Thud" as a gate guard along with an F-100 at RAF Croughton:) Just off the B4031, which is shortly after you cross the A43 roundabout coming from Buckingham on the A421.
It came as quite a surprise when passing on a cross country jaunt to the Cotswolds recently.
RAF Croughton have a website but nothing about the Guardian's sadly...:rolleyes:
http://www.croughton.af.mil/
Cheers,
PFR.

[The Helpful Stacker]

RAF Croughton's Thud (http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/types/usa/republic/f-105/F-105-3.jpg)

More info (http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/types/usa/republic/f-105/F-105_Thunderchief.htm)

[SkyHawk-N]

Recently seen reports that the Collings Foundation are seriously putting together plans to return a 'Thud' to the air to fly alongside it's F-4 and A-4.....:ok:


Maybe not....:(

[GeeRam]

Maybe not....:(

Hmmmm.......yes, just caught up on what's seem to be happening:ugh: :mad:

Time to turn their attention instead in the direction of a Crusader perhaps:ok:

[LowObservable]

Must be a candidate for largest/heaviest single-engined aircraft. Any thoughts?

I think it held that record in its day and still beats the heaviest F-16s (Block 60 and F-16I) by a few hundred pounds... but the JSF is way heavier by any estimation. The heavy F-16s get to 52,000 pounds, the Thud is a little bigger and some simple crunching says that the Dave C is over 65,000 pounds with any external stores.

Remember when JSF was the Common Affordable LIGHTWEIGHT Fighter?

[Brewster Buffalo]

It may be of interest but there's a "Thud" as a gate guard along with an F-100 at RAF Croughton:)
PFR.

Some years ago Lakenheath has one (G model 24434) and there was another at Upper Heyford (G model 24428) ..not sure where they are now..

[SASless]

Requiem For A Heavyweight

THE STANDARD JOKE AROUND THE BAR IN THE OFFICER'S CLUB IN THE EARLY SIXTIES WOULD GO SOMETHING LIKE THIS: AN F-4 DRIVER WOULD RAISE HIS VOICE AND DEMAND, "WHAT'S THE SOUND AN F-105 MAKES WHEN IT HITS THE GROUND?" CAME THE ROUSING CHORUS RESPONSE, "THUD!!!" NUMEROUS CHORTLES, SNICKERS, AND GUFFAWS.

"THUD" - THAT'S ONE OF THE MOST RESPECTED NAMES IN THE HISTORY OF AMERICAN AVIATION. SHE WAS CALLED A LOT OF THINGS THEN...HYPER-HOG, ULTRA LEAD SLED, ULTRA HOG. DROP FORGED BY REPUBLIC AVIATION AND A LOT MORE NAMES THAT ARE UNPRINTABLE. NO ONE EVER CALLED THE F-105 BY HER OFFICIAL NAME "THUNDERCHIEF", EXCEPT THE PRESS. SHE WAS ONE BIG JOKE EARLY IN THAT DECADE. SHE WAS TO ALL, THAT IS, EXCEPT THOSE OF US WHO FLEW HER.

BUT, "THUD" STUCK. AND WE THUD CREWS JUST SMILED A KNOWING SMILE AND QUIETLY CONTINUED SEPARATING THE GIN FROM THE ICE. WE KNEW SOMETHING THE OTHERS DIDN'T. SHE WAS ONE OF A KIND. SHE WAS AS STABLE AS A SWISS FRANC AND SHE COULD HIT. SHE COULD HIT WITH THE GATLIN GUN AND SHE COULD HIT WITH BOMBS - LOTS OF BOMBS. SHE HAD LONG LEGS AT LOW ALTITUDE. SHE WAS FAST. IT WAS VERY EASY TO GO FAST WITH HER - ESPECIALLY ON THE DECK. AND NOBODY ELSE COULD GO THAT FAST.

THEN WE WERE PRESENTED WITH VIETNAM AND WE FOUND OUT SOME OTHER THINGS.

FROM 1966 TO 1968 SHE WAS THE ONE TO CARRY THE BIG IRON DOWNTOWN. SHE WASN'T EXACTLY DESIGNED FOR IT, BUT THUDS HAULED 75% OF THE SMASH CARRIED DOWN ROUTE PACK SIX. AND IN COMBAT, SHE MAINTAINED A 90 PERCENT IN-COMMISSION RATE.

MAYBE IT WAS BECAUSE SHE WAS USED TO TAKING HITS FROM ANYONE AND EVERYONE, FOR WE FOUND OUT THAT SHE COULD TAKE OTHER KINDS OF HITS, THE REAL KIND, AS WELL, AND STILL FLY. AS AN EXAMPLE, NUMBERS 0512 AND 0376 (TWO DASH TENS) TOOK DIRECT SAM HITS AFT AND CAME BACK HOME. SO DID 0167 (A DASH FIVE), RETURNING WITH THE ENTIRE RIGHT STABILATOR SHOT OFF.

BUT SHE WASN'T PERFECT. NO REAL LADY IS. SHE COULDN'T TURN WORTH A DAMN. WE FOUND THAT OUT EARLY ON IN USAFE; ANYTIME WE TRIED TO ENGAGE A HUNTER OR A MARK SIX. WE FIGURED EVEN A FRISBEE WOULD OUTTURN THE THUD.

TO IMPROVE HER CHANCES IN THE AIR COMBAT ARENA, THERE WAS A PROPOSAL IN 1967 TO UPGRADE EACH THUD BY EXTENDING ITS WINGS 18 INCHES; REMOVING THE DUCT PLUGS AND DEPLACEMENT GEAR TO DECREASE WEIGHT; INCREASING INTERNAL FUEL CAPACITY BY SEALING THE BOMBAY; INSTALLING A LARGER TANK; INCREASING THRUST BY 5000 POUNDS; AND ADDING OTHER COMBAT IMPROVEMENTS.

AH, WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN! SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN A SUPER THUD!!

SHE DIDN'T ALWAYS COME BACK. SHE DIED A LOT. HER CORPSES LINE THUD RIDGE, HANOI, THANH HOA, AND A LOT OF OTHER PLACES UP NORTH. SHE WROTE THE EPITAPH FOR A LOT OF GOOD MEN LIKE KARL RICHTER. OVER HALF THE INVENTORY WAS GONE BY THE END OF 1968; MOST LOST IN COMBAT.

SHE BECAME A LEGEND AND LEGENDS FLEW HER. ROBBIE RISNER, KARL RICHTER AND LEO THORSNESS, TO MENTION A FEW. SHE WAS FLOWN BY OTHER GREATS SUCH AS DAVE WALDROP, BILLY SPARKS, AND PETE FOLEY. AND SHE WAS HANDLED BY MANY UNKNOWNS LIKE BOB GERLACH, JIM STILES, AND ME.

AS A WEASEL, SHE REIGNED SUPREME. SHE KILLED SAM SITES, SAMS, MIGS, AND EARNED THE MEDAL OF HONOR FOR TWO MEN; LEO THORSNESS AND MERLYN DETHLEFSEN.

THE THUD PILED UP THOUSANDS OF COMBAT HOURS ON EACH BIRD AND SHE WAS SAID TO BE WEARY AND WORN OUT. BUT ASK ANY F-15 DRIVER WHO TRIED TO PACE HER AT LOW ALTITUDE DURING RED FLAG 80-2. IT WAS "CHECK TWELVE, TURKEY", AND I'LL BE WAITING FOR YOU AT THE CLUB BACK AT NELLIS. SHE'S THE ONLY BIRD I KNOW THAT CAN GIVE YOU "THE BIRD" WHETHER PARKED ON THE RAMP, TAXIING OUT, OR IN-FLIGHT.

SHE ENTERED THE INVENTORY ON 26 MAY 58 AND ON 12 JULY 1980, SHE MADE HER LAST SCHEDULED OPERATIONAL AIR FORCE FLIGHT AT GEORGE AFB BEFORE GOING ON FOR A BRIEF STINT WITH THE GUARD AND RESERVE.

SHE STAYS WITH US AS AN AMERICAN CLASSIC AND A REAL THOROUGHBRED. SHE COULD BREAK YOUR BACK BUT NEVER YOUR HEART. SHE IS GENUINELY LOVED BY ALL WHO FLEW HER AND A LOT WHO DIDN'T.

THE EPITAPH FOR ANOTHER AMERICAN LEGEND, JOHN WAYNE, "FEO, FUERTEY FORMAL" FITS THE F-105:

SHE WAS UGLY, SHE WAS STRONG, BUT SHE HAD DIGNITY.

By Blake Morrison



Blake Morrison is a former F-105 pilot and Editor, Fighter Weapons Review.

[Pontius Navigator]

SHE WAS USED TO TAKING HITS FROM ANYONE AND EVERYONE, FOR WE FOUND OUT THAT SHE COULD TAKE OTHER KINDS OF HITS, THE REAL KIND, AS WELL, AND STILL FLY. AS AN EXAMPLE, NUMBERS 0512 AND 0376 (TWO DASH TENS) TOOK DIRECT SAM HITS AFT AND CAME BACK HOME.

I don't know if this is one of the same Thuds as mentioned by SASLess but the combat report went something like this:

The mission was briefed for 4x4 ship north of the DMZ and was ingressing at 300k at 16k. Charlie, in a single Mig 21 was identified by AEW and called in to the formation. The Mig was at 21k on a 180 at 700k. As the Mig rolled in to attack, Atoll from 6 o'clock 2 miles, one of the trail formation identified the intended target and called the bandit but due to excessive R/T chatter the target aircraft did not get the call.

After launch the Mig 21 exited north and disengaged. His target was the No 3 in one of the lead formations and it was believed that the Mig had been visual with only this formation.

The target aircraft was hit by an atoll missile in the starboard side of the jet pipe below the stabliator and detonated. The expanding rod warhead was contained by the steel jet pipe and all the pilot noticed was a momentary fluctation in his JPT. The mission was continued and the aircraft recovered with the rocket motor protruding from the side of the aircraft.

[brickhistory]

One remembers cutting hay in central Georgia and having the bejeesus scared, but thrilled, out of him when the last US users of the Thud, the GA ANG flying the WW F-105Gs, would scream overhead on the low level route that ran across our farm. Minding my own business on the tractor, then it sounded like God was pissed off at me personally and a shadow would go over to rapidly fade from view. Would have hated to be on the receiving end of anything more lethal than noise from them!

[spekesoftly]

Can't think of anythink heavier but there must have been bigger aircraft.

The wingspan of the Lockheed U-2 is probably greater than any other single-engined jet, and still in service some 50 years after the first flight.

[PFR]

Great thread:ok: Thanks Helpful Stacker for the identity.
Anybody got any history of our "Thud" at Croughton (63-428). Seems she was at Heyford earlier as a BDR.
Blake, your piece is inspiring - great to read. Thanks PFR:)

[SE210]

Dear Friends

Thanks for all your replies.

Merry Christmas

Cheers

SE210

[Pontius Navigator]

Blake, your piece is inspiring - great to read. Thanks PFR:)

er I think you will find SASLess was quoting Blake.

[SASless]

It was certainly Blake's writing and not mine....just did an edit to clarify the previoius post.

[PFR]

Oops, my mistake:ouch: Never-the-less SASless, was a great read - thanks for posting:ok:

[Brewster Buffalo]

.............
The target aircraft was hit by an atoll missile in the starboard side of the jet pipe below the stabliator and detonated. The expanding rod warhead was contained by the steel jet pipe and all the pilot noticed was a momentary fluctation in his JPT. The mission was continued and the aircraft recovered with the rocket motor protruding from the side of the aircraft.

Apparently a F-105 was also hit by a Sidewinder on one mission...:(

For a strike plane it also managed to rack up 27.5 MiG 17s kills.

In answer to my previous post the Crougton Thud is the one that used to be at Upper Heyford though it seems to be wearing a different s/n.

[SASless]

For you Typhoon promoters.....all but 2 of those kills were made by gun...the other 2 by missile. Thus 25:2 ratio of gun over missile kills and done by an airplane that did not turn well at all.

Now explain why having a gun is not necessary!

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

The Thud was also known as the ‘The Squash Bomber’ early in her career; detractors of the programme (politicians, of course) claimed that the F-105 was so big and heavy and needed so much runway to get airborne with a full load, that that only way it would destroy a target was by taxying over it and squashing it!
Also very nearly went back into production in the late sixties to replace losses sustained in SEA.
Great looking intakes, aren’t they? :)

[LowObservable]

"Now explain why having a gun is not necessary!'

Because the AAMs of the day had a Pk approximately equivalent to that of a rolled-up newspaper. Except of course for the AIR-2 Genie, which had a Pk of 2.0.

[Immelmann]

What ever is aid about the 105 - I did not have the pleasure to fly this bird. But I saw the bird at takeoff and heared the sound of the "exploding" burner! Impressive.
My F-4 sounded more like a cat´s meow!:)

[wileydog3]

I don't know if this is one of the same Thuds as mentioned by SASLess but the combat report went something like this:
The mission was briefed for 4x4 ship north of the DMZ and was ingressing at 300k at 16k. Charlie, in a single Mig 21 was identified by AEW and called in to the formation. The Mig was at 21k on a 180 at 700k. As the Mig rolled in to attack, Atoll from 6 o'clock 2 miles, one of the trail formation identified the intended target and called the bandit but due to excessive R/T chatter the target aircraft did not get the call.
After launch the Mig 21 exited north and disengaged. His target was the No 3 in one of the lead formations and it was believed that the Mig had been visual with only this formation.
The target aircraft was hit by an atoll missile in the starboard side of the jet pipe below the stabliator and detonated. The expanding rod warhead was contained by the steel jet pipe and all the pilot noticed was a momentary fluctation in his JPT. The mission was continued and the aircraft recovered with the rocket motor protruding from the side of the aircraft.

I knew well two Thud drivers, one my T-38 instructor and the other a KC-135 instructor.

The first was with Thorsen when he got his Medal of Honor. Hoeft took an 85mm round up through his wing. He had a picture of him standing IN the wing. They bolted on steel plates and flew the airplane to Taiwan to repair it. During tests, the wing failed at about 3Gs. Hoeft said he was lucky he did a straight in when RTB..

The second was Doug Beyers (sp?). Beyers brought the missile home with a dud warhead. Beyers had a picture of him standing beside the Thud with the missile dangling from the Thud.

On my two tours to Thailand in -135s, we refueled a lot of Weasels. The main thing was to always ensure the pumps were off for a disconnect as the intake on the Air Cycle Machine was near the receptable and if there was any spray, the Thud driver could get doused and that didn't make for a happy fellow.

[mlc]

I believe a shortage of 105 drivers led to a large number of AT and 135 pilots being given crossovers to onto the Thud. They then suffered heavy losses due to their inexperience with the jet.

[Pontius Navigator]

WD3,

I seem to recall the 85mm hit but the atoll hit was definitely not a dud. The expanding rod was contained my the jet pipe skin.

[wileydog3]

WD3,
I seem to recall the 85mm hit but the atoll hit was definitely not a dud. The expanding rod was contained my the jet pipe skin.

Doug???
or were there two Thud drivers who brought missiles home??

[wileydog3]

Some years ago Lakenheath has one (G model 24434) and there was another at Upper Heyford (G model 24428) ..not sure where they are now..

Oftten 'gate guards' are painted with numbers that are NOT the actual number of the airframe.

Research shows 62-4434 was shot down over Laos with the pilot ejecting. The pilot died enroute after being rescued.

4428 started off as an -F but was converted to a G. The last listing is the gate guard at Croughton. No combat history found but if it was a G it is very unlikely it sat on the sidelines.

Here is a picture of 4428 and it appears she served with the GA ANG.
http://www.cybermodeler.net/aircraft/f-105/images/f-105g_24428.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

I believe a shortage of 105 drivers led to a large number of AT and 135 pilots being given crossovers to onto the Thud. They then suffered heavy losses due to their inexperience with the jet.

Story we heard at the time was that the USAF was run along the lines of once in SAC always in SAC, once on B47s always on B47s. When the 1600 B47s were retired there were an awful lot of spare aircrew with no need to transfer them to the Buff.

Also, since the Buff crews had a cushy job pulling alert in the US all the load was falling on TAC.

The solution, and the effect, was as you suggested. Not just lack of experience on the jet but lack of the whole single pilot tac stuff.

[Pontius Navigator]

Doug???
or were there two Thud drivers who brought missiles home??

WD3, no idea but I do remember the mission report vividly.

Another report, this time sanitised as it was a year or so earlier, related the experiences of a jet-jockey who evaded a number of Guidelines. He did 'this', then he did 'that' and so on. As we read on, counting the engagements off, the article stopped describing his evasive tactics after a dozen or so, In all we made it a count of 21.

Now this could have been any type. At the time we had not heard of the weasel or that type of mission.

If it was a weasel sortie it must have had one hell of an AUW at take-ff to get those balls airborne. :)

[Brian Abraham]

F-105 was so big and heavy and needed so much runway

Twas said of Republic that if someone built a runway around the world they would build an aircraft that needed every inch.

[brickhistory]

When the F-105 was first designed, it was, pure and simple, TAC's purpose-built nuclear bomber. Starved for funds by the then more glamorous SAC, TAC needed to compete.

Unlike the F-100 and others pressed into nuke deliveries, the -105's fast and low design, as well as its cavernous internal bomb bay (Buccaneer anyone?!), was optimized for the tactical nuclear role.

[wileydog3]

Story we heard at the time was that the USAF was run along the lines of once in SAC always in SAC, once on B47s always on B47s. When the 1600 B47s were retired there were an awful lot of spare aircrew with no need to transfer them to the Buff.
Also, since the Buff crews had a cushy job pulling alert in the US all the load was falling on TAC.
The solution, and the effect, was as you suggested. Not just lack of experience on the jet but lack of the whole single pilot tac stuff.

As one exiled into SAC after a tour as a FAC, it was a culture shock. And pulling alert week after week was not a 'cushy' job but one filled with lots of mission study, mission tests, more tests, verbatim EP exams, more stuff... It was 7 days on.. 2 crew rest days and then maybe 1 or 2 sorties and then back on alert.

Fortunately for me, when the IG came in, I didn't write the EP *verbatim* and it was considered a bust. To punish me, they sent me to Thailand. I told them had I know this was the punishment, I could have screwed up a lot earlier to the benefit of everyone.

And yes, my -38 instructor came out of BUFs to Thuds (improbable path) but turned out to be a real tiger.

And as for once a SAC 'asset', always a SAC asset, correct. I had a volunteer statement in for a second tour (the two 3 month Thai tours didn't count) and I was told, "Give it up..you've got your ticket punched and you're going NOWHERE." Even when a friend of mine (wife and 2 kids) got an OV-10 and wanted out of the assignment, I called and said he could stay and I would take the assignment, they said, "You don't get it.. you're going nowhere!" And they asked me many times in the months before I left the USAF why I didn't want to stay. DUH....

[wileydog3]

WD3, no idea but I do remember the mission report vividly.
Another report, this time sanitised as it was a year or so earlier, related the experiences of a jet-jockey who evaded a number of Guidelines. He did 'this', then he did 'that' and so on. As we read on, counting the engagements off, the article stopped describing his evasive tactics after a dozen or so, In all we made it a count of 21.
Now this could have been any type. At the time we had not heard of the weasel or that type of mission.
If it was a weasel sortie it must have had one hell of an AUW at take-ff to get those balls airborne. :)

Doug's machine was a D, not a G or F so not a WW.

Doug was an easy going guy with a quick smile and great stick and rudder guy. He brought a tanker home with one engine out, one surging and he got chewed out when he got on the ground for not calling the command post and having a pre-landing conference since he was an 'emergency aircraft." He was told there were many considerations that had to be discussed before an emergency aircraft landed. Doug just smiled...

Later he had another engine shut down and came back to the home base. He called in to the command post (like a good little soldier) with the fact that he had shut down an engine, had x0,000lbs of fuel (enough for many hours of flight) and when he finished his report, he added, "So... what are MY intentions???"

The heavies didn't see his sense of humor. I think Doug finally made Lt. Col. but he was far to apolitical to make full bull....

[Pontius Navigator]

WD3, I gained the impression that the guy who took 21 shots was a single seater. These were all SA2 shots not AAMs and the closest was, IIRC, 500 feet although some actually passed closer before detonating.

I also believe this was when they were making single guided shots, albeit lots of them, rather than the later, often unguided, multiple launches.

No this was a quite different incident. Remember the first I recalled as a single engagement on one aircraft of a 16 ship formation of bombers.

[Brewster Buffalo]

I knew well two Thud drivers, one my T-38 instructor and the other a KC-135 instructor.

The first was with Thorsen when he got his Medal of Honor. Hoeft took an 85mm round up through his wing. He had a picture of him standing IN the wing. They bolted on steel plates and flew the airplane to Taiwan to repair it. During tests, the wing failed at about 3Gs. Hoeft said he was lucky he did a straight in when RTB..

The second was Doug Beyers (sp?). Beyers brought the missile home with a dud warhead. Beyers had a picture of him standing beside the Thud with the missile dangling from the Thud.
...........

These photos may be of the incidents above...

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o212/sirius100/F-105wingdamage1.jpg http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o212/sirius100/F-105taildamage1.jpg

[SASless]

The Bucc when compared to the Thud comes second by far.

A very quick comparison of various aircraft can be done at the following site....

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft_comparison.asp

[wileydog3]

These photos may be of the incidents above...

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o212/sirius100/F-105wingdamage1.jpg http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o212/sirius100/F-105taildamage1.jpg

I think you may be right about the first... I thought the second incident, with the Atoll, was in the left side of the Thud. As always, *I could be wrong*.

[M609]

Doug's machine was a D, not a G or F so not a WW.

According to Brig. Gen Ken Bells book (100 missions north) , "D" models often filled the 2 and 4 position in a WW flight (Or indeed the nr 3 as well), carrying CBU or iron bombs.

Bell mentions a flight of 1 "F" model leading 3 "D" models on a WW flight to JCS 51.10 outside Puc Yen, a flight commanded by Thorsness. The flight got sepearated over the target, and Bell (flying nr 4) has few kind words about the idea of trying to follow a lightly loaded "F" in a fully loaded "D" model.

Nice book as well.

[Brewster Buffalo]

The Bucc when compared to the Thud comes second by far.

A very quick comparison of various aircraft can be done at the following site....

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft_comparison.asp

Republic tried to sell the F-105D to the RAF in 1960. Part of the proposal was to modify the a/c for the Olympus B01 22R the engine developed for the TSR2.

The maximum 34200 lbs of thrust from the Olympus would have made a substantial improvement in the F-105D's performance.

[BenThere]

Red Flag was born from heavy Thud losses, primarily, and the mission concept has always been to provide a realistic combat environment to train in so the inevitable mistakes will not teach their lessons in reality.

USAF training doctrine always held (until the late 90s) that a UPT grad was universally assignable, hence tanker pilots and such were thrown into the Thud and sent into combat after a short RTU exposure. The 'fighter-qualified' label only mattered for the initial assignment out of UPT.

The process was reversed in my case, as I was involuntarily shunted from RF-4s to the KC-135. Bitter at first, I quickly realized it was the best thing that could have happened to me in the air force. I stayed on the tanker in the reserves for the remaining 26 of my 30 years.

[SASless]

To understand the fighting spirit of the Wild Weasels.....one might read this article about Thorsness and his back seater on a mission to Hanoi area.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/0485valor_print.html

[GeeRam]

The Bucc when compared to the Thud comes second by far.
Unless you wanted to operate off a carrier of course.......;)

[mlc]

I've recently ordered 'Thud Ridge' and 'When thunder rolled', both covering the 105 in Vietnam. Looking forward to reading them.

[Brain Potter]

The Bucc when compared to the Thud comes second by far.
A very quick comparison of various aircraft can be done at the following site....
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft_comparison.asp
That website is more like "Top Trumps" than reality. I suspect that they are getting range and radius confused for the Buccaneer. In "Top Trumps" a Tornado beats a Bucc, but in reality, apart from avionics....
As already mentioned Red Flag was born out of the Thud loss rates and proved to be an arena in which the Bucc performed spectacularly well, much to the surprise of the hosts. I guess they had been playing "Top Trumps" :)

[brickhistory]

Another good Weasel book that deals a lot with F-105s is "First In, Last Out: Tales of the Wild Weasels."

Lots of short (er) stories dealing with recollections of both missions and equipment.

[rustybh]

Wiki has some mission tapes and transcripts on some Thud wild weasel missions over Hanoi:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Category:Vietnam_War

Pretty enlighting stuff!!! :eek:

[Zoom]

The photos in Posts 57 & 59 show just how much the F-105 benefitted from its protruding tailpipe. Remember how the Israeli Air Force added tailpipe extensions to some of its fighters (Mirages and A-4s, I think) so that any heatseekers that got 'up their chuff' exploded more or less in empty space without doing significant damage to the main workings of the aircraft.

[Captain Kirk]

SASless,
Interesting site, but the adage 'Rubbish in, rubbish out' holds true.
The Bucc would happily exceed 561 knots and, indeed, I suspect that the 938 miles quoted as max range must be AT 561 kts, AT 100 ft and WITH at least 8 x 10000lb'ers (disregarding twin and triple store carriers and clearly exceeding the max 7 stores quoted).
That said, I would love to get my hands on a Thud - one cool ac, and I suspect that the Thud and the Bucc were of the same stable.

[Brewster Buffalo]

SASless,
........ I suspect that the 938 miles quoted as max range must be AT 561 kts, AT 100 ft and WITH at least 8 x 10000lb'ers (disregarding twin and triple store carriers and clearly exceeding the max 7 stores quoted).


Anybody any info on a typical low level range for the Thud? I'm tempted to think that the two-turbofans of the Bucc should give a greater range over the Thud's single turbojet...

[BenThere]

As I recall, the Thud could refuel on both the boom and basket.

[wileydog3]

As I recall, the Thud could refuel on both the boom and basket.


You are correct although I never dragged a basket for any Thuds.. only RB and EB-66s.

We did refuel the Thuds awfully low.. we were in the "Fruit Bowl" (refueling anchors in Thailand were named Apple, Peach, Cherry, etc) and picked up some Thuds down around 14-16,000...but they were fast. As I remember, Thuds refueled at 315IAS.

[rlsbutler]

Graham Pitchfork's "The Buccaneers" seems to have no listing of performance or specs. However page 28 instances an unrefuelled flight from Goose Bay to Labrador of 1950 nm.

On the other hand, on the same page, a standard hi-lo-hi Beira patrol with refuelling seems to have extended to only 500 nm radius.

[Captain Kirk]

Check out Song 3 here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dickjonas2
:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Graham Pitchfork's "The Buccaneers" seems to have no listing of performance or specs. However page 28 instances an unrefuelled flight from Goose Bay to Labrador of 1950 nm.
On the other hand, on the same page, a standard hi-lo-hi Beira patrol with refuelling seems to have extended to only 500 nm radius.

Slip of the fingers me thinks. I think you meant LOSSIEMOUTH. The jet was fully fuelled and had a problem starting one engine. It taxied out and then had its tanks topped up by gravity feed IIRC.

OTOH the RN did a Hi-Lo-Hi attack on Gibraltar from the Ark while the Ark was in the south west approaches. Haven't worked out the distance and I am not sure if they used buddy-buddy refuelling.

[rlsbutler]

Pontius Nav - agreed Lossiemouth - oh dear, slip of the brain not the fingers.