Weather, BAA, LHR, Xmas, BBC, Fog, BA, etc. Rants (merged)

[olster]

According to the news BA is cancelling all domestic services today @ LHR.I find this bewildering as the last actual indicates 100'/600m which is of course well in excess of A319/B757 cat3B minima;I smelleth more BA/LHR pre Christmas chaos redolent of cock-up/mismanagement from the world's favourite -Merry Christmas

[haughtney1]

According to the news BA is cancelling all domestic services today @ LHR.I find this bewildering as the last actual indicates 100'/600m which is of course well in excess of A319/B757 cat3B minima;I smelleth more BA/LHR pre Christmas chaos redolent of cock-up/mismanagement from the world's favourite -Merry Christmas

Olster, BA are cancelling flights for a number of reasons...one of which is that due to reduced vis, the number of aircraft movements are severly restricted, both on the ground, and in the terminal area. Factor all this in, plus there are airports around that dont have cat 2 or 3 capability..which means you could take off, and have to divert as a matter of course, so what is the point of operating a flight?

[TyroPicard]

It's a question of runway capacity during LOVIS procedures.

[Megaton]

Very easy to tilt at BA management (with which I have no connection) but the truth is much more banal: flow rates reduced at Heathrow so somethings got to give and the company have decided to sacrifice domestic services. I understand that quite a few other operators have been forced to take similar action. I operated into LHR this morning and we held for an hour at LAM before landing in 400 m off a CAT 3B approach. Obviously flow rates aren't a problem if you operate into provincial airfields! :p :p :p :p

[GBALU53]

The slots into Gatwick this morning were in excess of two hours so I have at a guess similar slots must have been in force a Heathrow as well.

At least the out bound punters can see what was causing the delays but when you are an inbound punter two hundered miles down the round in clear blue sunshine the travelling public do not understand the delay.

It looks like the next couple of days will be a similar start each morning.

[Swedish Steve]

The B757 nighstop from ARN which should leave at 0910, finally departed for LHR at 1700, awaiting LHR slot.
BA has run out of aircraft because of the freezing fog.
What LHR needs is a system of landing CAT3 aircraft at normal flow rates, and an ILS is not the answer.
Synthetic vision, MLS, GPS. One day one of these will have taken over, but up to then Cat3 means long delays.

[ajamieson]

I think what the OP is getting at is why BA always abandons its entire domestic flying programme during irregular ops while other airlines manage between a 50% and 90% service. Seems all too convenient given the other operational problems faced by staffing issues right now (eg at outstations where redundancy looms).
Midland has managed to operate all but two flights to EDI so far today :cool:

[autothrottle]

ATC LVP's require 6 mile spacing-reducing landing runway rate to 24/60. Normally 2.5/3 miles equating to 45 movements per hour on landing runway=delays.:)

[DtyCln]

According to the news BA is canceling all domestic services today @ LHR.I find this bewildering as the last actual indicates 100'/600m which is of course well in excess of A319/B757 cat3B minima;I smelleth more BA/LHR pre Christmas chaos redolent of cock-up/mismanagement from the world's favourite -Merry Christmas

This submission merely proves your entire lack of Aviation knowledge!

Low visibility procedures reduce landing rates by about 25%, therefore the impact at LHR where we land 42-44 aircraft per hour is significant. The fact that BA has the majority of its operations based there means that it is therefore disproportionately effected.

The reason for the reduced rate despite CAT3 aircraft is basically complexity on the ground. Aircraft landing in fog tend to occupy the runway longer as the flight crew get their bearings and identify their runway exits in reduced visibility. Flight crew also tend to taxi slower in low visibility conditions for safety reasons. Air Traffic cannot issue landing clearance to the next aircraft until the preceeding aircraft has passed the CAT3 holding position. This position is further from the runway than the normal point where the following aircraft can normally be cleared to land. This is all being done in complete blindness in the control tower, with controllers completely reliant on Surface Movement Radar (where fitted).

Whilst not an airline employee I assume BA cancel shorthaul flights in order to prioritise what slots they have left, for higher pax number medium/long haul flights.

You smelleth nothing but your own S***!

Regards- Air Trafficer

[olster]

my lack of experience includes 30 years ops at the sharp end including cat 3A/B Airbus/Boeing(mainly command/training) and I should have realised that inevitably given the usual knee jerk over reaction prevalent on pprune that the insults would start flying.I am very aware of lo vis procedures,spacing,slow taxying etc.The intention of the post was to highlight the bizarre decision to cancel all domestic services through LHR -has anyone operated/paxed through LHR/LGW recently?-virtual meltdown has been my experience.And (supposed) air trafficer rather than fling insults why don't you go back to your dark room and shove it.

over and out

[Doors to Automatic]

Whilst not an airline employee I assume BA cancel shorthaul flights in order to prioritise what slots they have left, for higher pax number medium/long haul flights. Regards- Air Trafficer

It's as much to do with the options/cost of the disruption which would be far worse for long-haul. Short-haul pax can easily be transferred to bmi or onto an LGW flight whilst cancelling a daily BKK or SIN flight would be a lot more problematic.

[DtyCln]

"BA/LHR pre Christmas chaos redolent of cock-up/mismanagement" -Olster:D

"over reaction prevalent on pprune that the insults would start flying" -Olster:D

"Pot-Kettle-Black" springs to mind.

Regards DTY/CLN

30 years UK Air Traffic Controller

[SWBKCB]

I think what the OP is getting at is why BA always abandons its entire domestic flying programme during irregular ops while other airlines manage between a 50% and 90% service.

Entirely agree - this seems to be BA's standard response to this sort of disruption. If you're paying £300 or 400 to get you home to NCL, EDI, GLA, surely you should be able to expect BA to make a bit more of an effort.

[lexxity]

BA knocks the shorthaul programme to keep the longhaul programme going. It is much easier to redistribute domestic pax, crew and aircraft and get them back on schedule than it is the WW fleet. That is why it is always the shorthaul programme that gets hit.

[haughtney1]

If you're paying £300 or 400 to get you home to NCL, EDI, GLA, surely you should be able to expect BA to make a bit more of an effort.

OK, lets try again to explain the situation.....say you have a flight from LHR-NCL, and because of ATC restrictions relating to fog, the flight is delayed 4 hrs outbound. Now there is no guarantee it will be able to operate into LHR until the WX improves..before the crew go out of hours..effectively stranding an aircraft + crew, plus screwing up the schedule for the next day and so on and so on. Its that simple:ugh:

Depending on the type of ticket purchased, BA will hotac you, and re-book you on the next available flight. Which is the best you can expect....mayby perhaps you should book Easy next time? I wonder if they will hotac you? somehow I doubt it.

I can't believe that any of you believe that much more could be done...this whinging comes across as very very petty minded, without any real appreciation of the logistics involved.

(I say this as a non employee of BA, but as someone that has a much better idea of the problems caused when a base is weather restricted)

[olster]

DTYCLN -my last post on this -I originally started this post because I do feel that it is a bizarre decision to cancel all domestic services(why not CDG/AMS/FRA) and as one who lives in the regions I can emphasise very much with the poor sods who will be spectacularly inconvenienced by this so close to Christmas(been there).I cannot for the life of me feel that it is insulting to imply that BA or God forbid the BAA could possibly mismanage a deteriorating weather scenario(or anything).I would not ever imply that ATC @ LHR/LATCC were in anyway complicit in this.If you are of the same vintage as me I do believe that a certain level of mutual respect was traditional between pilots/ATC.Finally,as probably you and I have spoken frequently on the radio including cat 3b ops @LHR it is disappointing to think that you would feel it appropriate to call me or anyone ignorant of all things aeronautical and to imply I smell of **** which call me a bluff old traditionalist I interpreted as insulting(unsurprisingly).If you've had a tough day @LHR go and have a drink.

rgds

[Skylion]

Could also have something to do with short haul rostering agreements and the minimum turnaround times required by cabin crew in particular at LHR which means that the aircraft, pilots and cabin crew are normally rostered separately, so when inbound flights are disrupted it is very difficult to get all 3 components together for the outbound again. Pilots may be going out again on one flight and cabin crew on another and neither is often staying with the aircraft. Hence BA shorthaul is much worse affected than any other airline on days of disruption at LHR and domestics in particular end up getting cannibalised to protect international, the theory being that there is alternative transport, even if only by rail or even coach. At this time of year, with everything that moves being pretty well fully booked , several days of disruption on the trot takes a long time to unravel as passengers off cancelled flights go to the back of the queue for new bookings.To do otherwise would result in complete chaos. The deadline of Christmas makes the whole thing worse, and unlike normal periods of disruption there are few willing to just delay their travel plans. The next few days could be very difficult , with some high emotions.

[SWBKCB]

...this whinging comes across as very very petty minded, without any real appreciation of the logistics involved.

Logistics, what about customer service? Sounds like the poor SLF getting in the way of operational efficiency again...

I'm looking at this from the customers point of view, and it looks like BA take the easy option and just shut down domestic operations rather than make the effort and try to offer some sort of service to those who pay the wages.

[mmeteesside]

How about moving whatever's left of the long haul fleet across to LGW, and starting operating B744's or B772's on the domestic routes from there? Move the pax across to LGW on coaches and soon you'll have them all out of your way.

Do-able or not?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Er, if they have to cancel something, then surely it makes sense to cancel domestic routes where there is the alternative of taking the train??

Particularly as the train will get there quicker anyway, once you've added the delays to the normal check-in times and security nonsense and travel-to-the-airport time.

So this sounds like a perfectly sensible way to run a business - piss off as few punters as possible as little as possible. Duh :confused: :confused: :confused:

[NigelOnDraft]

Olster I originally started this post because I do feel that it is a bizarre decision to cancel all domestic services(why not CDG/AMS/FRA)6 of 9 LHR-CDG, 4 of 7 LHR-AMS and 5 of 8 LHR-FRA were canx today... and despite "all Domestics being Canx" this was a late am decision and so 3 of 9 LHR-MANs operated...
So whilst "all domestics cancelled" is the headline, in fact the whole SH program farily decimated.
By contrast, I don't think a single LH ex-LHR service cancelled today, and delays not outrageous...

[SWBKCB]

So this sounds like a perfectly sensible way to run a business - :

or alternatively come up with some reliable, robust contingency measures and give your customers something approaching what they've given you their money to do - we're not talking about a '100 year event' here, but something which happens 2/3 times a year.

[DtyCln]

My last post too...

Forget my professional involvement.

As a regular BA pax, 16 flights this year, Exec club member etc, primarily through LHR. Would I rather turn up on a day like today and find my regular trip to Belfast cancelled or my trip to Rome or New York cancelled?

I'd take the domestic cancellation every time. Just about to travel back home for Christmas as I do every December, flight cancelled, tough but other options open to me. Car, train ferry etc. Were I going to New York what options have I got? Swim? Would I rather BA cancelled their entire domestic operation every time, absolutely. And I write as a traveller who previously lived in, and regularly returns to Ulster and is an Exec Club member!

BA/LHR is limited by its own popularity as it expands within its geographical and planning limits, therefore when (occasional) disruption occurs its always going to be bad. Upside? We have some of the cheapest fares to all 4 corners of the world with a choice of airlines and schedules other world passengers can only dream of.

PS I didn't say you smelled of S***, read the quote carefully, smell your own.......

Regards.

[Miserlou]

I feel Olster got an unfair slapping here. I agree that it is odd to cancel an entire domestic schedule.

The problem lies within the company, it would seem. It is a question of service, not union policy and minimum turn-arounds times etc.

My solution?
As there is rarely a problem having too short a turn-around when the slots are being handed out, the cabin and cockpit crew all stay with the same aircraft and fly the next available route arriving back at their home base as close as possible to their scheduled check out time. Force Majorie.
If their contract says they can't be rescheduled to fly something that arrives back later than their original check-out time, then assure them that that flight won't be cancelled anyway and is subject to 'x' delay such that they would get home quicker by accepting the other flight.

Can't see what is wrong with calling a standby crew in to fly a delayed flight rather than cancelling it. These situations allow that you fly seriously good load factors when you have condensed two or three flights into one.

[helicopter-redeye]

With Christmas coming, and lots of fog about, why get a part of your fleet in the wrong place just before the busy time starts. That would ruin a few Christmases.

Loads of aircraft were out of position this morning due fog last night.

Last night could well have set a 'course record' for the number of missed approaches in one evening ...

[THE FLYING COOK]

Well well well. Its getting emotional on here tonight. Dtycln has it in a nutshell!! Totally correct. :D As for SWBKCB and NigelonDraft you really both need to get a sense of reality here. Don't take offence but when you get a peasouper like this for a few days just before xmas, its the worst possible scenario. As for saying LH managed to operate all their flights to LHR today then just have a peek at the BBC weather website and you just might find its quite clear over in Deutschland.
As for Olster you are unbelievable in that you have been at the pointy end for 30 years. I am totally lost for words!!!

[judge11]

DtyCln - with comments such as yours I'm glad I don't come into your neck of London airspace.

Returning to the topic, it's called preserving the bottom line and the operation will take priority over and above the service, and at the bottom of the list, the passengers for whom (supposedly) it is designed to serve.

[autothrottle]

DtyCln, that was a bit ott

[PAXboy]

SWBKCBI'm looking at this from the customers point of view, and it looks like BA take the easy option and just shut down domestic operations rather than make the effort and try to offer some sort of service to those who pay the wages.
As much as I find irritating about BA mgmt, I work on the presumption that they don't like to canx flights. It makes their day longer and noiser and more stressfull. They will have been through this many times and know what can be done and what cannot. The facts of what has happened and what will happen the next time there is bad fog at ANY airport ANYWHERE in the world are well known.

mmeteessideHow about moving whatever's left of the long haul fleet across to LGW, and starting operating B744's or B772's on the domestic routes from there? Move the pax across to LGW on coaches and soon you'll have them all out of your way.

Do-able or not?
No. How do you communicate to ALL your passengers to go to a different ariport? You might get 50% but if even 10% don't get the message and cannot get to the alternative departure point - they will be as upset as if you had canx the flight.

More critically, each ferry movement of an empty machine out of EGLL and across to EGKK is two more slots removed from a system that is already (wait for it) slot limited! Not to mention that it costs hard cash in fees and fuel and diminishes the hours of the crews who may already have to spend much time waiting - to send them on a ferry flight and use more time and money does not work. That kind of action would be reserved for a long term event - let us say that T1 was out of action due to a very bad fire.

[TheOddOne]

To be fair, BA have been pushing for MLS at LHR for years - they offered themselves up for the trial in the 80's (G-BIKA, a 757, wasn't it, from memory?) and have/had kitted out parts of the fleet. The trouble is, unless everyone else is forced to upgrade, we're still stuck with the 1960's CAT III localizer on VHF with its inherent beam-bending propensities.

25 years ago, there was a table published with the dates by when the 'old' localizer/glideslope system was going to be phased out in favour of MLS. I think we've gone WAY past that date, without a sniff of activity except for installations at LHR, but hardly anyone with the airborne kit. Remember, to make it work for the wx we had today (and right up to Christmas, by the look of it) everyone's got to be on the new system, if one aircraft is still hooked into the old system, you'll still need to 6 mile gaps.

It's only a few years ago that whenever LVPs set in, we all put our feet up and nothing stirred on the aerodrome for days on end. People EXPECTED flights to be cancelled - waiting around for days. The Terminals even had contingencies like 'Fog chairs' - special stores of extra seating. I doubt in today's crowded lounges if there'd be room even to put them out...

The Odd One

[DtyCln]

Pervious post was my last but.............

Flight Disruption due to Fog 21 December 2006

Question
British Airways is working closely with BAA at London Heathrow and National Air Traffic Services due to the restricted number of flights which will be able to operate at the airport on Thursday December 21 as a result of the severe fog.

As a consequence of the expected severe fog British Airways is cancelling all domestic services to and from London Heathrow on Thursday December 21.British Airways is doing all it can to assist customers and would urge customers due to travel on one of the cancelled flights to or from London Heathrow on Thursday December 21 not to travel to the airport.

Customers due to travel are advised to check the status of their flight before they leave for the airport.
To access our real time flight arrival and departure information please click here.

Just posted on BA.com

Well done BA, I personally support you decisions fully!

Standby for incoming.....to the shelters men!;)

[easy]

haughtney!,

Bit late to reply to your previous, but easy will also put you on the next available flight, and will also hotac you... we're not all ryanair you know! Probably why BA short-haul is suffering so much at LGW et al.

All the best for the festive season.

easy

[AUTOGLIDE]

From a MAN point of view, this in some respects is a good thing. Those in the habit of totting up the exec club points and in the routine of always using the laughingly named 'British' Airways via LHR for longhaul may use the excellent and often direct LH alternatives already in place at MAN instead, thus aiding further LH development there. This in place of using BA who are effectively just parasites and see the rest of the UK as a feeding ground for their LHR LH services, whilst making redundant/shafting it's so-called 'regional' workforce at the same time, i.e. MAN hangar, BACon etc.
The train is faster all in all (than flying) from central Manchester to central London also, something many people are beginning to realise.
Perhaps if BA just left (MAN) completely, it would finally free up some useful space.

[Not Long Now]

Excellent, nice quiet day at work tomorrow then. Apart from London City, Biggin Hill, Southampton and Farnborough types holding in all the usual and quite a few unusual places!!

[TheOddOne]

but when you get a peasouper like this for a few days

This ain't peasoup!

We're talking 1950's viz down to 3 or 4 yards, choking green filth, 12,000 people dying from breathing difficulties in a single event, Policemen on point duty wearing masks. I well remember my mother walking along the white painted line in the middle of the road, holding a hankerchief in front of the windscreen so that my father could steer the car. This was in Central London, not out in he countryside! Now, THAT was a pea-souper, named after the colour of the stuff.

And who cleaned it all up? Well, a certain Labour MP called Robert Maxwell introduced the Clean Air Act. Yup, that was him, Cap'n Bob as he became, of Daily Mirror fame (or is that infamy, as in 'infamy, infamy, they've all got it in fa me!')

TOO

[Stampe]

Only people to blame for this sort of thing is the government.All our transport resources roads/rail/airports are working at 100% capacity.No reserve for bad weather etc.Lack of investment and a crippling planning enviroment.What hope for the future of this once great country.

[DtyCln]

All our transport resources roads/rail/airports are working at 100% capacity.No reserve for bad weather etc - Stampe

100% agree. The nail on the head.

[jonesthepilot]

Flying Cook- Stick to cooking
DtyCln - What are you on about?
Olster - Quite right old chap!
BA Management - As ever, sod the pax, don't care about repeat bookings.
Aviators in general - Read the TAF and carry the gas!!

[Wycombe]

What mmmteeside talks about is I'd suspect a lot more difficult to achieve than it sounds (esp. as essentially the large a/c on long haul are pretty much ops normal), but it did remind me of the Christmas "push" BA used to do on the domestics out of LHR in the run-up to Christmas, going back a few years, with all those Tristars on the BFS shuttle, for example.

[biddedout]

Don't forget that only a few months ago when the industry was plunged into chaos by the Ministry of Insecurity (liquids ban), BA tried it's best to struggle on and as a result, took loads of flack for something that was very much out of its control.

Easy and Ryan took the other option and probably picked up less adverse publicity even though they cancelled virtually the whole days flying in order to avoid the knock on disruption. Maybe BA have learnt from this. If ever there was a case for a third runway at LHR, this is certainly it and I am sure WW will be making the most of it - good luck to him.

In the middle of all this, lets remember the 1000 or so BA Groundstaff in the regions many of whom who will be working well into the early hours trying to help thir customers, despite facing the axe in the new year when Santa Walsh dumps Connect and finally pulls out of the regions (apart form a few shutles). They could so easilly say "sod it, waterworld doesn't care about us or anything North of the Bath Road, so why should we bother", I doubt that they will though, they are on the whole all a great bunch of professionals with a great sense of duty and once again they will be going that extra mile or more.

Same goes for the BAconnect staff who will also be pulling out all the stops tonight to try and operate the non-LHR domestic and SH operation as close to normal as possible.

[747-436]

Hopefully the fact that BA have scrapped their entire domestic schedule for Thursday might mean that slot delays in to LHR for the other operators will be less than the average 4 hours recieved today!

Also surpirised to hear while at work there are minimal startup delays at LHR , the last time I did a shift while there was fog all day at LHR there were 2 1/2 hour startup delays at about 1800. I imagine that the cancelations and also huge inbound slot delays have helped reduce the burden on LHR somewhat!!

BA have done the right thing by knocking it on the head now rather than attempting to run the domestic schedule and have crews and aircraft in the wrong place for longer than needed. Hopefully when it clears the back log won't be too much!

[LYKA]

LHR not the only place have problems either!

Check out DEN

TAF AMD KDEN 202050Z 202118 34022G38KT 1/4SM +SN BLSN FZFG VV002
FM0400 35020G28KT 1/2SM SN BLSN FZFG VV003 FM0800 34015G22KT 3/4SM
-SN BLSN OVC005 FM1500 35012G18KT 1SM -SN BR OVC008=

KDEN 202131Z 34028G34KT 1/4SM R35L/1400V1800FT +SN BLSN FZFG VV002
M04/M06 A2984 RMK AO2 P0000 $=
KDEN 202112Z 35032G36KT 1/8SM R35L/0800V1400FT +SN BLSN FZFG VV001
M04/M06 A2983 RMK AO2 TWR VIS 1/4 P0000 $=
KDEN 202104Z 35030G37KT 1/16SM R35L/1000V1400FT +SN BLSN FZFG VV001
M04/M06 A2983 RMK AO2 TWR VIS 1/4 LTG DSNT NW P0000 $=
KDEN 202053Z 34030KT 1/4SM R35L/1000V1600FT +SN BLSN FZFG VV002
M04/M06 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP125 SNINCR 1/6 P0002 60005 T10441056 55014
$=
KDEN 202035Z 36026G48KT 1/4SM R35L/1400V1800FT +SN BLSN FZFG VV002
M04/M06 A2982 RMK AO2 PK WND 35048/2033 P0001 $=
KDEN 202008Z 36027G33KT 1/4SM R35L/1000V1800FT +SN BLSN FZFG VV003
M04/M05 A2981 RMK AO2 PK WND 35033/2004 SFC VIS 1/2 P0000 $=
KDEN 201956Z 36027G35KT 1/8SM R35L/0800V2200FT +SN BLSN FZFG VV001
M04/M05 A2982 RMK AO2 PK WND 36032/1956 TWR VIS 1/4 P0000 $=
KDEN 201953Z 36030G35KT 1/4SM R35L/1400V2200FT SN BLSN FZFG VV002
M04/M06 A2982 RMK AO2 PK WND 36035/1952 SLP122 P0001 T10391056 $=

[Dryce]

I'd take the domestic cancellation every time. Just about to travel back home for Christmas as I do every December, flight cancelled, tough but other options open to me. Car, train ferry etc. Were I going to New York what options have I got? Swim? Would I rather BA cancelled their entire domestic operation every time, absolutely. And I write as a traveller who previously lived in, and regularly returns to Ulster and is an Exec Club member!


I tend to differ. Family and friends generally avoid transiting through LHR because the airport is a pigsty and BA trash their domestic service as their first contingency. Today just confirms the good sense of this policy.

In days gone by you always felt that BA would use a larger aircraft and consolidate several flights so you'd get home late but you'd get home.

If they had declared that they were doing something like this today then they would have some kudos and gain some customer confidence. It would have demonstrated resilience as opposed to fragility.

[Stoic]

First, I declare an interest. I retired from BA a few years ago after flying BA’s VC10s, then B747s, for many years.

On a similar day to today, several years ago, I recall that I arrived over the UK in a 747 Classic from SEA to find LHR, LGW, STN etc. fogged out with un-forecast fog with 2 hours-plus holding delays for LHR. So we popped into MAN for fuel. [We were so keen to get our pax to LHR that I almost cocked up by putting too much fuel on (so exceeding max landing weight), but was saved by nothing more than pure luck]. We asked BA MAN staff to get us off to LHR asap. They responded: “Wait your turn” - 3 or 4 already delayed MAN-LHR shuttles. We said; “Hang on. If we don’t get away by whatever time, we shall run out of hours and we will have 340 SEA pax stuck in MAN.” BA MAN immediately understood our problem, we went to the top of the priority list, further delaying the short-haul shuttles and set off for LHR as soon as CAT 3 was anticipated so we could land. We landed with no delay in “real” CAT 3 at LHR.

I offer this to show that organising an airline operation at LHR during fog is not an easy matter. Whether or not it is the beloved “pea-souper” of a 1950s childhood is immaterial. Reduced landing/take-off rate due fog will disrupt all major airline operations, when an airport is operating to capacity.

In my opinion giving early warning of cancellation of tomorrow’s domestic services is eminently sensible. Passengers have early warning to make alternative arrangements.

Being aviation, sod’s law will ensure that tomorrow is fog-free.

Of course you can always try some of the low-cost operators when there is disruption.

Happy Christmas to All

Stoic

[747-436]

I am seeing on the news that they are saying it is too dangerous to land for shorthaul aircraft but Longhaul aircraft have more modern equipment so can land in poorer conditions!

Wish the media would use the real reason which is the drastic cut in the flow rate and the subsequent slot delays this causes for European traffic, which means everything runs very late and aircraft and crews are in the wrong place. :ugh:

Long haulers come from outside of Eurocontrol airspace so no inbound slot delays = less disruption!

Guess the real explanation doesn't make as good a story for the press!

[BEagle]

Fingers crossed that my policy of never using ba and avoiding LHR like the plague will pay off tomorrow as I try to get back to the UK to a regional airport with another carrier.

Interesting that ba should be so badly affected by fog. Historians may correct me, but I seem to recall that, forty years ago, it was a BEA Trident which made the first commercial landing at LHR in 50m of fog when no other aircraft could land?

Come a long way since then, haven't you Nigel?

[747-436]

It is not the inability to land in the fog that is affecting BA, it is the drop in the flow rate and subsequent inbound delays that are causing the cancelations!!!!!

[BEagle]

Yes, sorry - my point was that once upon a time it was only the pioneering BEA Trident which could keep going - whereas now ba short haul domestic has ground to a halt.

For whatever reason, progress that ain't!

"Eight-Thirty Trident!"

Airport movements rates, airline manning levels and crew duty limits have all played a part in this current situation. Operating too close to the surge margin, as it were.

[Leezyjet]

I think that what the original poster was getting at is that other airlines are able to operate their s/haul flights albeit by combining flights and more than likely with heavy delays, but at least they try and maintain some sort of operation rather than just cancelling outright as BA seemed to have done.

:hmm:

[woodpecker]

Bealine 456 are you Cat3?

Affirmative!

Cleared to start!



Those were the days, "Prime Land" and all that the Trident had to offer.

[Stoic]

Beagle: Surely the point is that when an airport is used to capacity, and the movement rate is degraded due weather, delays are inevitable.

When the Wx-affected airport is your main base, as LHR is for BA, the disruption has to be managed as well as possible. What makes you think that any other airline would manage the LHR disruptions better than BA if it were their main base?

Regards

Stoic (long-retired BA)

[smith]

They have cancelled all domestic services and Paris and Brussels.

The clue is there, they can get most of the pax home via Train(UK) and Eurostar (Paris and Brussels) at least in the same day.

Try getting someone to Warsaw for example via boat, train or automobile etc and it will be far more trouble.

They are trying to reduce disruption to a minimum, so us brits will have to take the train but at least we'll get home on the same night. Good policy as AFAICS.

[mocoman]

Hopefully the fact that BA have scrapped their entire domestic schedule for Thursday might mean that slot delays in to LHR for the other operators will be less than the average 4 hours recieved today!


Is that not the major part of the reason that BA have cancelled Thursday?

I would hope so; weather is marginal and they know it. Why risk long/medium-haul delays by catering for their domestic ops. Heathrow deals in transit passengers as much as end-point traffic; Long-Haul takes priority..:hmm:

Traffic on the ground can be massaged; traffic in the air is a given.:}

[ajamieson]

What makes you think that any other airline would manage the LHR disruptions better than BA if it were their main base?
Possibly the fact that LHR-based Midland has. Cancellations, yes...but they were still flying tonight.

[sat1]

hey gertrude with common sense in abundance(as you clearly have) what are you doing in this business???

[Dryce]

Heathrow deals in transit passengers as much as end-point traffic; Long-Haul takes priority..:hmm:
Traffic on the ground can be massaged; traffic in the air is a given.:}

Not much use transiting through LHR if your inbound or outbound
domestic has been scratched.:{

[mocoman]

Point being that International Transit is a major part of BAA, oops BA..:} , business and that it is far more worthwhile sacrificing UK Domestic to Euro-Worldwide or Transit customers...

Aircraft will continue to arrive and depart; only the rate will decrease and domestic/short-haul will take second-place.

Remember that there is no landing or departure block; purely a lowered arrival and departure rate due to LVP's.

:hmm:

[PAXboy]

Well, here I go again: I certainly agree with stoic... when an airport is used to capacity ...One of the problems that we have in the UK is that almost all organisations/companies/institutions/government departments now plan to operate at capacity with no reserve.

One can understand why: It is cheaper. The accountants have proved to the boards/shareholders/owners that the occasional problem like four days of fog, can be dealt with in three ways.

Everyone provides extra capacity - wider motorways or ALL aircraft having the latest autoland gizmo.
The big boys provide extra capacity but gain no benefit because the little boys won't pay. So there is no benefit from paying for the extra capacity.
No one pasys for extra capacity and so everyone 'gains'. When the fog hits the fan :E just bunker down and pay compensation - it will be cheaper than trying to fit MLS all round AND to get the rest of the EGLL users to do it.

Of course, HMG (via CAA) could specify MLS for all but everyone loves 'light touch' regulation because you need less regulators being paid by the Gov and you can 'sell' the idea that we are keen to let comemrcial companies 'do what they do best'. What they do best is make money for their shareholders and for that - don't bother to make MLS compulsory.

EGLL was out of capacity years and years ago and we are now building T5. Even the new short runway (Ten years from now?? Probably more like 15) will make no differance because no one will stop booking yet more flights into slots which mainly exist on paper. The time and money wasted in the stacks really is disgraceful. But the Gov ar lucky that that price is paid indivudally by each pax and the carriers and thus back to the pax, of course. If the sum of money were put in one place it would be very large.

I am not in favour of nationalised airlines but I am in favour of the main airports not being owned by a company (BAA, not their owners) that specialises in selling duty free and hamburgers. :*

[clicker]

While the main conversations have been around Heathrow, has everyone taken into account the WX at other airports?

If you only have a problem at one end of all your sectors it maybe worth it to keep running but what if both ends have problems as appears was the case yesterday.

I myself agree with many other posters. Better to be able to use coaches, trains etc than SFA

[BMEDbus]

Yes Fog does reduce the landing rate at LHR. But rumour has it this has come as a blessing to BA as the baggage handlers are on a go slow due to new working conditions. The union reps where escorted out of the compass center a few days ago.

Willie must have some powerful friends in the heavens. " BA STRIKE CHAOS" doesn't look good on the sun any more!

[SWBKCB]

They are trying to reduce disruption to a minimum, so us brits will have to take the train but at least we'll get home on the same night. Good policy as AFAICS.

Mine haven't got home yet.

[Megaton]

LHR
SA210720 210720Z 00000KT 0400 R27L/1100 R27R/0700 FZFG VV/// EGLL M00/M00 Q1042 NOSIG -
SA210650 210650Z 00000KT 0350 R27L/1000 R27R/1100 FZFG VV/// M00/M00 Q1042 NOSIG -
FC210600 210605Z 210716 VRB02KT 0200 FZFG VV/// TEMPO 1016 1500 BR FEW001 PROB30 TEMPO 1116 6000 NSW BKN005 -
FT210400 210430Z 211212 VRB03KT 0200 FZFG VV/// TEMPO 1212 1500 BR FEW001 PROB30 TEMPO 1217 6000 NSW BKN005 -

More of the same today then!

[sirwa69]

Young Miss Sirwa was heading back from Uni yesterday for Christmas with dear old daddy and she got caught up in this.

She was sitting on BA1433 due to take off 6.30 from Edi when they were told they would be delayed till 9.00. It might have been nicer to tell them in the lounge rather than having them sit on the plane!:mad:

New arrival time in LHR 10.08 so bang goes her connection to Bah at 10.15
When she gets to T4 she is given some options which all mean hanging around till 21.40 and going via Dubai or Kuwait. She opts to take the 12.30 to Dubai and wait overnight there rather than risk not getting on the later flights. (Good girl learned from her Dad, always take any oppertunity to get into the general area).
Arrived at DBX at midnight local, sits in the Costa till 4.30 whereupon she manages to persuade Cathay to put her on their 6.00 flight to Bah.

She arrived here at 6.00 local this morning describing it as not so much a journey but more an ordeal.

At the moment nobody has any idea where her bag is :( Hope they find it it's got my pressies in :mad:

On On

[bbrown1664]

Whilst I fully understand why BA has done this, it could have been partially avaoided.

Some years ago BA made it a policy to move as much to LHR as possible and move out of LGW. Yes many people transit LHR and connections in one place are nice, but lets face it LHR is not a nice place. Far too congested for PAX and a/c and a crewing system that cant cope with lots of delays.

My solution, change the crewing system, move flights back to LGW and re-introduce the airlink that was scrapped when the M25 promised short transfer times.

As for getting out of this mess, yes, use a couple of slots to get a few a/c out of LHR to LGW or somewhere else for the longer flights (NI/Scotland etc) and bus the PAX to/from LHR for the rest of the country. Combine flights and get people moving rather than stranded.
It may not be as quick as a flight but the PAX will get to their destinations sooner.

[THE FLYING COOK]

[quote=Stoic;3030444].

I offer this to show that organising an airline operation at LHR during fog is not an easy matter. Whether or not it is the beloved “pea-souper” of a 1950s childhood is immaterial. Reduced landing/take-off rate due fog will disrupt all major airline operations, when an airport is operating to capacity.

In my opinion giving early warning of cancellation of tomorrow’s domestic services is eminently sensible. Passengers have early warning to make alternative arrangements.

You are so right Stoic. An airline operation is a nightmare at the best of times - I have a friend who does the network planning for BA. It's makes invading Iraq seem like a walk in the park. Its so much more difficult for those airlines who have a short/longhaul mix than those just operating longhaul like virgin for example. Whats depressing about all this is ALL flights are full at this time of year making it so much worse for the poor old air traveller

[boeingbus2002]

Sirwa...
There are several reasons why your daughter was notified so late about the late slot. Most common is that boarding is commenced as normal, sometimes a slot is received by ATC just before departure. Even though the flight maybe fully ready to go, they must wait.

If the delay is within a specified time (dependent on operator) they may continue boarding in the hope that the slot improves. Of course if at 0630 a slot was received of 1100 for example, then usually pax are kept in gate rooms/lounge and told to listen out in case there is any improvement.

Hope yr pressies find their way over soon...:} !!

[Hotel Mode]

My solution, change the crewing system, move flights back to LGW

BA moving flights to LGW would make no difference, do you really think that those slots would then be unused by others?

[bbrown1664]

:ugh: Of course the slots would be used by someone else but, for example, if half the flights moved to LGW then only 50% of 50% would be affected by this (or other reason to shut LHR) rather than 50% of 100% (as good as).

Overall it would be better for BA if no different for LHR.

[172driver]

Forgive me for going off a bit on a tangent here - but does anyone know if the jet engines installed many, many years ago at CDG actually were effective in reducing/eliminating fog ? I remember seeing them installed on swiveling mounts along the main RWY, but never saw them in action. Did that system work at all ? Was it de-commmissioned because of being ineffectual or because of improved (CAT3) landing capabilities ? Just curious.....

[The Otter's Pocket]

Moving more ops to Gatwick may sound like a good idea, however there are several problems.
1 Single Rwy, how many more movements would it take before the same problems as Hrow result?
2 The internal flights at Heathrow are to connect people for their onward jorney. At least that was the original plan.

With the reduction of ticket pricing more people are more than eager to just hop on a flight to Manchester. Prehaps it is time for ticket prices to start rising. (The railways are now at capacity and the ticket prices are huge).

With regard to the MLS.
I heard that the NIMBY's created such a stink it was shelved.
Why?
People living in the backbeam area complained that their frozen chickens kept going....
B-Ding:}

[Lon More]

In an interview on ITV Lunchtime news the Airport Manager insinuated that the problem was all caused by the ATC LVPs: no mention of any other cause.

[Crepello]

Disappointing to see the armchair experts and Walter Mitties saying how it should have been done better. While I sympathise with domestic pax whose flights were cancelled, at least the strategy was made very clear, doubtless saving many wasted journeys to airports.

It seems personnel have been trimmed to the point where there are insufficient staff to recover from issues of this kind, and that's a p!sspoor way to treat customers. But I transitted LGW yesterday and, while I was miffed to spend 2 hours waiting in the connections line, BA's people did a great job. My bags didn't make it but just arrived by courier. And credit to BAA for using back-office staff to assist the security screeners.

Let's hope the weather improves soon...

[eidah]

I see Ryanair have been delayed today but not many cancellations. Why is it that Ryanair can do it but BA cant. I am sure there is a simple explantion but if one airline can do it why cant others.

[PAXboy]

bbrown1664for example, if half the flights moved to LGW then only 50% of 50% would be affected by this (or other reason to shut LHR) rather than 50% of 100% (as good as). Overall it would be better for BA if no different for LHR.
You are presuming that BA wish to keep LGW operating in the longer term. You might not be aware of the trend to concentrate everything at LHR and cut away all the rest. T5 is both the clue and the key.

[heebeegb]

I see Ryanair have been delayed today but not many cancellations. Why is it that Ryanair can do it but BA cant. I am sure there is a simple explantion but if one airline can do it why cant others.

It's not a BA issue - simply overcapacity at LHR.

[BEagle]

Quite so - LHR is overly reliant on being able to operate without LVP restrictions. With ba having most of its aircraft there, it's hardly surprising that they are the worst affected when LVPs are in force.

Today I flew back from BRE-FRA, then FRA-BHX. Only 30 min late at BHX - and I was kept fully informed by Lufthansa throughout both by sms and at the departure gate. A reasonable drive home to British West Oxfordshire avoiding the M40 - 2 minutes held up in Chipping Norton, but that's about all.

I feel very sorry for those poor folk caught up in the chaos - people should really look at flying with other carriers and from anywhere except LHR, given the choice. If you haven't tried Birmingham, I thoroughly recommend it.

No doubt the services from BHX will improve even more when flybe finally absorbs baConair......

[tristar500]

Nice to see that 'The Jewel In The Crown' (LHR) has lost the shine of its World-Wide reputation this week!

Its time the airlines (BA in particular) looked outside and finally admit that there are plenty of other capable airloprts in the UK up to the job of operating long-haul flights!

Never mind... As we are contiually being told (force-fed) LHR T5 is the answer to all our problems :ok:

PS - Yes I know there isnt a demand - BECAUSE there are no flights on offer from the regions! Try a limited schedule and see the pax numbers rocket - trust me, people would rather fly point-to-point (which suits WW) than connect vial LHR/LGW etc...

[AUTOGLIDE]

[QUOTE=The Otter's Pocket;3031187]
With the reduction of ticket pricing more people are more than eager to just hop on a flight to Manchester. Prehaps it is time for ticket prices to start rising. (The railways are now at capacity and the ticket prices are huge).


Sorry, but don't agree with you there, MAN-LHR traffic has been falling anyway since the completion of the West Coast Main line work and the subsequent reduction in train journey times.
As for increasing the prices to reduce demand, well, how very Gordon Brown of you. Instead of actually doing what the rest of the world does, and increase capacity to meet demand, lets just make it so expensive people cannot afford to fly.

[bbrown1664]

:ugh: Paxboy

You are presuming that BA wish to keep LGW operating in the longer term. You might not be aware of the trend to concentrate everything at LHR and cut away all the rest. T5 is both the clue and the key.

You have missed the point. The point is BA want to centralise everything. It reduces their costs.

From a PAX and therefore revenue perspective, many people do not like LHR because it is such a hole T5 or no T5 the apron/runways are at capacity already. All they can hope for is larger jets like the A380 to take off (scuse the pun) and they can get more shoppers, I mean passengers, through the terminals.

LGW, Bristol and Stanstead are all viable alternatives to the customers if only BA would start giving a half decent route network to them that did not involve transitting through LHR they would see for themselves.

[gordonroxburgh]

The thing that nobody has suggested is that the 8 hours overnight should be used for flights

Yes there would be staff implications, but it does not take that much to re-rota crews and bring in some extra staff. Overnight you can use a 777, waiting for an AM long haul dept, to bring 2 short haul flights together.

What capacity figure does that put back, you would get up to around 90%.

For sure, you piss off a handful of Locals, but thats better than 100,000 pissed off passengers.

Come on guys think outside the box!

Personally I've canx my BA booking and will enjoy a nice train ride up north.

[chrism20]

[quote=gordonroxburgh;3031860]The thing that nobody has suggested is that the 8 hours overnight should be used for flights

Yes there would be staff implications, but it does not take that much to re-rota crews and bring in some extra staff. Overnight you can use a 777, waiting for an AM long haul dept, to bring 2 short haul flights together.


A 777 has seemingly made it up here to EDI from LGW tonight was due in around 1740

[woodpecker]

172driver,

BEA never used the jets (time expired avons) at Paris as there was a substantial cost and we had Cat3 on the Trident. Their use would increase the vis to 400m if there was no wind, but was rather turbulent.

Oslo, yet again if there was no wind, used to seed freezing fog with silver nitrate (or something similar) which turned the fog to snow. Alas only worked with freezing fog below -3 degrees.

[PIK3141]

This and the autumn's security farce just underline that those of us in the regions shouldn't even think of using BA or transiting LHR. Imagine arriving longhaul at LHR to transit North and ending up dumped in this. BA used to make the effort and combine shuttles into widebodies and send them up to GLA. Fog at LHR is nothing new. People in the regions should be well advised to use Ryanair or Easyjet for Europe, in many cases going direct, use Emirates for the Middle East, Far East and Australia/NZ, and use Continental or whatever for the USA. That way you probably won't even loose your luggage.

[BusyB]

I have to say that I understood all night movement bans are cancelled when weather problems arise and that being so I am staggered that BA cancelled so many flights rather than delay them.:confused:

[Flightman]

BusyB

Wrong!. However its very complicated and long winded, so I'm not going into it!
:}

[overstress]

BEagle why such a downer on BA? You must have had a bad experience at some point, why not enlighten us? :E

[172driver]

172driver,
BEA never used the jets (time expired avons) at Paris as there was a substantial cost and we had Cat3 on the Trident. Their use would increase the vis to 400m if there was no wind, but was rather turbulent.
Oslo, yet again if there was no wind, used to seed freezing fog with silver nitrate (or something similar) which turned the fog to snow. Alas only worked with freezing fog below -3 degrees.

woodpecker, interesting, thanks for that. Have you ever seen them in action ? Did they only clear a sort of 'tunnel' above the RWY or did they clear the area ? In other words - would the use of this (admittedly somewhat stone-age) technology keep LHR open during a period of fog like this ?

PS: Before anyone chimes in I am aware that LHR IS open, flow rate, etc, etc....

[tristar500]

BA2940/BA2941 LGW-EDI-LGW ops by B777-236 tonight.

In BAs case, why not bus pax to LGW and use 'nightstopping' longhaul acft to clear the European backlog?

Things wont return to normal for some time, as aircraft and crews are out of position so the longer this goes on, the longer it will take to return to some form of normality...

The fog is only a taste of whats to come if the cabincrew decide to take action regarding their terms and conditions, never mind the pension crisis, the threat of major job losses to regional staff etc etc...

[chrism20]

[quote=tristar500;3032209]BA2940/BA2941 LGW-EDI-LGW ops by B777-236 tonight.


Last one in tonight and first out tomorrow also a 777

[PAXboy]

bbrown1664[PAXBoy] You have missed the point. The point is BA want to centralise everything. It reduces their costs.Oh, I'm sorry. I thought that I had been saying for the last five years that BA want to centralise everything to reduce their costs. That is why I said in my post, "... trend to concentrate everything at LHR and cut away all the rest."

From a PAX and therefore revenue perspective, many people do not like LHR because it is such a hole T5 or no T5 the apron/runways are at capacity already. All they can hope for is larger jets like the A380 to take off (scuse the pun) and they can get more shoppers, I mean passengers, through the terminals.Yes, I have been saying that for many years.

LGW, Bristol and Stanstead are all viable alternatives to the customers if only BA would start giving a half decent route network to them that did not involve transitting through LHR they would see for themselves.Indeed they could but I have also been saying for some years that BA also want to cut away all short haul and return to a BOAC airline. Therfore, they will not do what you are suggesting. They wish to abandon short haul.

gordonroxburghThe thing that nobody has suggested is that the 8 hours overnight should be used for flights. Yes there would be staff implications, but it does not take that much to re-rota crews and bring in some extra staff. Overnight you can use a 777, waiting for an AM long haul dept, to bring 2 short haul flights together.

And where do they get the 'extra staff'?
What if the a/c is delayed by wx or terminal handling delay and is not back in time to do it's morning schedule?
How do they restructure the maintenance of the a/c when it is no longer on hand to be inspected overnight? (Not every night of course but extra hours will bring forward the inspections)
Also, night flying restrictions?
Also, getting the all the staff for check-in, fuel, baggage, ramp, despatch - when everyone is already scheduled to the maximum to cope with the delays? There is a limit to how much overtime people can do. If you cannot get EVERYONE for ALL aspects of the flight prep and operation, then it cannot run. To do this at minimum notice and repeat ad hoc for a couple of days would be, IMHO, a very difficult exercise.

[WHBM]

The cancellation of all the domestic programme any time things get a bit difficult at Heathrow is an increasing farce.

We have had fog before but never just thrown away the entire domestic programme for days. This increasingly seems to be the BA gut reaction to any difficulty.

I am getting fed up with BA spokesmen appearing on TV trying to do a poker face, giving a very amateurish (and sometimes plain wrong) explanation of Flow Control, and feeling that it exonerates them from making any attempt to operate to certain destinations.

Just looking at the situation in recent days, all 10 daily flights to JFK have all operated, no cancellations, and seats available on all of them at departure. No attempt whatsoever to consolidate them and free up slots for destinations where the complete programme has been cancelled.

If the CAA did their job properly (some hope) they would be down at BA pronto saying that if they did not make a serious attempt to serve all destinations in an optimum manner during restricted operations, a little bit of legislation and their slots at Heathrow would be taken from them and given to someone who was more prepared to make the effort.

Presumably while all this is going on the latte-quaffers over at Waterworld are wondering what all the fuss is about .....

[Hotel Mode]

Overnight you can use a 777,

There arent any 747's or 777's at LHR overnight except those on Maintenence. Even the first long haul departure (JFK) is generally operated by the 1st T4 arrival.

[skyman771]

Just looking at the situation in recent days, all 10 daily flights to JFK have all operated, no cancellations, and seats available on all of them at departure. .....
Hmmm....! well there would be seats available cos' everyone is sitting out in the regions trying to make a connection onto the bl**dy flights that they booked months ago !:sad:

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

WHBM: I suspect that, even the 'latte-quaffers over at Waterworld' must by now be getting an inkling that this is yet another huge PR disaster, for BA and LHR. The story is running and running, and making headline news across the world. I've alluded, on another thread, to Simon Calder's comments on Sky on this very subject. Millions of people will be viewing this and deciding not to go anywhere near LHR in future. You can almost hear the chortles of glee coming from Amsterdam, Paris, and Frankfurt.

If the game-plan is to turn the clock back to BOAC, as is feared by a substantial number of staff at BA, then it's pretty short sighted.

[AUTOGLIDE]

I cannot guarantee the following is 100% correct, spoke yesterday to 2 people who flew on seperate BMI flights (on the 21st) from LHR-MAN. They both claim the aircraft were 'half full'. IF that is indeed true, can anyone at BA/BMI explain why BA's backlog passengers were not put onto BMI?

[WHBM]

BusyB
Wrong!. However its very complicated and long winded, so I'm not going into it!
Night movement bans (and their temporary relaxation).

Flightman :

You sound as if you are close to the action on this one. Can we ask therefore, has anybody asked the Govt. department responsible if the movement quota can be relaxed, and if so what was the reply ?

"We were ready to work all night but the Government told us to put the voters of Manchester and Edinburgh into unheated tents for the night instead" would be a great quote for the press baying for something to print.

[Flightman]

Night movement bans (and their temporary relaxation).
Flightman :
You sound as if you are close to the action on this one. Can we ask therefore, has anybody asked the Govt. department responsible if the movement quota can be relaxed, and if so what was the reply ?
"We were ready to work all night but the Government told us to put the voters of Manchester and Edinburgh into unheated tents for the night instead" would be a great quote for the press baying for something to print.


It would be a great quote wouldn't it. But its not one of mine! DfT are aware of current situation ( obviously ), and are supportive, within the rules that allow flights during times of severe disruption. 45 aircraft operated in the night period on 20th, 80 last night.

Can't say anymore on the subject, sorry. :sad:

[lexxity]

Just looking at the situation in recent days, all 10 daily flights to JFK have all operated, no cancellations, and seats available on all of them at departure. No attempt whatsoever to consolidate them and free up slots for destinations where the complete programme has been cancelled.

Perhaps the return sectors were full? It may explain why they weren't consolidated.

IF that is indeed true, can anyone at BA/BMI explain why BA's backlog passengers were not put onto BMI?

BA would need to endorse the tickets over to bmi and in this day and age of etickets each ticket would have to be printed out. However, in situations such as this, fims are, usually, written for the disrupted passengers as it's much quicker. I can't actually believe that BA wouldn't be rerouting it's pax on bmi deliberately. I assume that the shear backlog of passengers was really slowing things up.

The other answer to your question is this; my husbands collegue was due to fly to the Bahamas on Thursday from LHR with BA, she was due to fly down from MAN and connect. On Wednesday she recieved a call from BA advising that she had been booked into LGW and would be bussed over to LHR. Perhaps this is happening for other disrupted BA pax ex LHR to the regions?

[172driver]

lexxity,

the answer to your puzzlement may lie here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2516150,00.html)

[spanishflea]

BA, BAA, NATS etc are all over the news currently being asked for comments on the situation. Why oh why are they not coming out and saying that if LHR had its 3rd runway these kind of mass cancellations would not happen?

They have the perfect opportunity to explain to the NIMBYs the precise advantage of a 3rd runway in a context that is relevant to them. How many of the people do you expect are sitting in the terminals, or have family sitting in the terminals now, who before this week would have been against the 3rd runway, but when told that it would reduce problems like this, would most likely increase their support for it?

AMS, FRA, CDG etc are all in fog this week too, but are coping with just a handful of cancellations because of the benefit of their extra runways. I just dont understand why all the relevant agencies aren't using this opportunity to trumpet this fact and drum up support for a 3rd runway.

[UL730]

Ghost flights….

Confronted with some of the most horrific PR any organisation could imagine – why is nobody surprised that pax who could fly today have elected not to use Heathrow.

I would imagine you would have more fun having a mini break in Fallujah than entering the confines of that wretched BAA enclave.

[172driver]

BA, BAA, NATS etc are all over the news currently being asked for comments on the situation. Why oh why are they not coming out and saying that if LHR had its 3rd runway these kind of mass cancellations would not happen?
They have the perfect opportunity to explain to the NIMBYs the precise advantage of a 3rd runway in a context that is relevant to them. How many of the people do you expect are sitting in the terminals, or have family sitting in the terminals now, who before this week would have been against the 3rd runway, but when told that it would reduce problems like this, would most likely increase their support for it?
AMS, FRA, CDG etc are all in fog this week too, but are coping with just a handful of cancellations because of the benefit of their extra runways. I just dont understand why all the relevant agencies aren't using this opportunity to trumpet this fact and drum up support for a 3rd runway.

Because they're a bunch of tossers, that's why :yuk:

[PAXboy]

spanishfleaBA, BAA, NATS etc are all over the news currently being asked for comments on the situation. Why oh why are they not coming out and saying that if LHR had its 3rd runway these kind of mass cancellations would not happen?Because the 3rd runway would almost certainly not make a big enough differance.

In the first year of it being open - Yes, then it would. BUT once the runway if fully operational, BAA will sign up more international flights and BA will transfer more/all from LGW and so the two main tarmac strips will be as fully occupied as ever. YES the third will provide some capacity but not that much because the airport will be aiming for over capacity once again.

The one glimmer of hope is that enough people will have been so irritated by EGLL and it's useless managers that the overall demand for the field will have dropped and it will then be working within capacity and a reasonable margin of reserve. So ... it looks as IF BA and BAA have been planning very carefully (once again).

[offa]

It's taken a couple of days of fog to expose LHR for the fraud it really is ..... not the World's Favourite Airport but an antiquated tip that really doesn't deserve to be included in anybody's travel plans any more. Shabby carpets, ceilings falling down, endless walkways added to connect the dots, eternal queues, congested pickup points and a security nightmare with one-tunnel access / exit to traffic chaos on the M4.
As previously mentioned this weeks chaos has been caused because Heathrow is operating at near capacity even under normal conditions - there are no other competitive hubs operating with only two runways. BA has greedily put all it's eggs in the Heathrow basket over the years and now pays the price. The only development at LHR has been to add more terminals to an already congested airport that has no decent road or rail connections to the outside world (No! I don't want to go into London nor sit in a traffic jam on the M25) Successive governments have proposed all sorts of grandiose alternative airports and done precisely NOTHING.
Any solutions? Ban everything under 200 seats? Build two more runways immediately? Connect Staines to the mainline rail services at Reading? Make LHR a domestic airport only and develop one of the RAF or USAF fields as an International hub?
There's lots of competition these days and CDG; AMS; BRU and FRA all get fog but they don't need to "close the shop" as they planned and made their investment in their own airports years ago .....

[neil armstrong]

they cant help the fog but ofter the lack of information can be blamed on them!
I was stuck in LHR a year ago with lots of cancelations ,with out any info from BA!
So a kicking ,NO ,but keep waiting people informed!

Neil

[smith]

seems to be some spare seats left on ryanair STN-PIK for saturday and sunday, thought they'd have been snapped up. maybe people are too scared to take the risk of booking up and being cancelled again.

[jethro15]

Over the past few years, there has been a steady decline in the standard of news reporting from the BBC. What was once considered the crème of broadcasting now seems to resort more and more to sensationalism and inaccuracy in it's reporting on any subject.

[sox6]

NG708

Perhaps it might be better to give the pax the BA phone line - or would you rather we all just give the BBC duty officer 'a kicking' instead?

English is my second language but I can see the pax was not inciting violence but using the richness of the English langauge to express a probably greater deserved displeasure that you can justify sitting on your sofa watching whinging about how the media report that displeasure.

[ceedee]

On tonights reporting from a fogbound Heathrow, the Six O'clock News carried an interview with a couple who, when asked about the fog delays, expressed the opinion that 'it just wasn't good enough and someone in BA should get a good kicking!'
Could have sworn the guy was criticising BAA (rather than BA) after complaining about being kept hanging around in the freezing tents...
Maybe I've got fog in m'ears?
:O

[Jamie-Southend]

Here is the SLF concerned :hmm:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ukfs_news/hi/bb_rm_fs.stm?news=1&bbram=1&bbwm=1&nbram=1&nbwm=1&nol_storyid=6201719

[Algy]

Nonsense - the travelling public have been almost surreally calm in the face of an air transport system that is frankly broken. "BA should be given a good kicking" - which, let's face it is pretty run of the mill English as it is actually spoke - is barely worthy of comment.

As I have said before a tedious number of times, airlines have a uniquely confrontational relationship with their customers. It is only their utter power over them that lets them get away with it. Their miserable, capital-destroying, financial performance is a direct result.

Fortunately, thanks to the likes of the much-loathed (by the legacy industry) Ryanair, the clock is ticking.

If I buy a £500 suit and the store screws up the tailoring, I don't even have to argue - the store just says "sorry, we'll fix it". If it's an airline, it's just the beginning of my doomed fight for a halfway reasonable response. And in the meantime the airline will trash my life. These are companies that deserve to fail.

[olster]

thanks,offa you've finally brought the debate to the point I was trying to make as the original OP -ie that BA/BAA are a national joke with the heady amalgamation of mismanagement and incompetence that culminates in the cancellation of the short haul network even though the aircraft are technically capable of autoland/cat3a/b landings;anyone who lives in the regions route via the near continent to fly further afield -I speak from experience.I do feel very much for those stuck/spectacularly inconvenienced by this.b/rgds

[Miserlou]

Enticement to violence?

[PAXboy]

The BBC are only reporting what is being said. They might not, on this occasion, have found someone who said "It all went well and I am buying BA shares from now on" but they will seek balance. They have to because that is in their book of rules. (No I do not work for the BBC).

Perhaps, if BA and BAA had done a better job of informing people about the delay and looking after them, the BBC would not have found anyone to say this? Besides, as stated by Algy, it really is a rather mild syaing and one that children use in the play ground every day.

Inform the public and they wil be OK and I add my voice to those that are surprised we have not seen really bad behaviour thus far.

[Kit d'Rection KG]

I think that these pax feel the same way for a few days that I do about the big supermarket chains all year long, every year.

Hugely powerful businesses driven only by providing the cheapest goods regardless of their quality or the cost to our society... Companies that don't care about anything but their revenue... People who probably can't spell 'quality' any more, much less might understand what it means or why civilised society developed the concept...

Regardless of the very unusual met conditions, having people staying overnight in marquees in the depth of winter is not a mark of a first world country...

[Masai]

If the comment was directed at the BAA I do not think it would be going too far to suggest it is long overdue. Their security is a joke, the whole of the airside operation is woefully mismanaged, and it seems all they are interested in is keeping pax in the shops as long as possible.
High time the airports were split up and BAA was put out of its (and everyone else's) misery.

[PaulW]

Yeah thats right because Ryan Air would just say... sorry thats life.. act of god, sort yourselves out and no you cant have your money back. If you want customer service fly another airline.

I have watched some of the news 24 reports and the reporters seem most disappointed when they speak to passengers that say, well we have had a really nice lady looking after us, we were given meal vouchers for a hot breakfast in the hotel we were provided. And now we have just been given sandwiches and drinks in the marquee put up to keep us out of the rain.

Lets see what has Ryan done for the passengers that have had their flights cancelled. The BBC hasnt mentioned that all Lufthansa and Air France flights were cancelled and what about other airline cancellations. Id like to see Ryan Air operate out of Heathrow.

BA isnt perfect but the staff are working very hard and do a lot more than low cost airlines during disruption. There are a lot of volunteers giving up their free time to help passengers.

As for the BAA with regards security matters and baggage system problems... many of us here could write a book. Especially those passengers who have had their bags miss their flights or have had them lost due to the baggage tunnel repeatedly failing between T4 and the central area. Im not going to mention numbers but pick a number with 4 zeros and thats how many bags need repatriating due to baggage problems in one day over the weekend. The BAA monopoly has to stop, its a crime that they can keep increasing landing fees and provide a shocking infrastucture to operate with.

[Sunfish]

Yes, the Airport needs a good kicking, as does BA, as do pilots who call passengers "Self Loading Freight".

For a ****ing start, why the **** reservations people ask for your phone number and/or email address?

I've lost count of the number of times I've checked out of hotels and got myself to an airport in good time, only to find that the flight has been delayed for up to twelve hours. Why couldn't they let me know, so I could do something else with my time? They seem to be oh so ready to contact me to try and bump me if they have overbooked!

The behaviour of major airlines under these circumstances really annoys me because they assume you will patiently stand around for hours waiting to climb into a dirty aluminium tube crewed by sullen morons who will eventually attempt to take you somewhere near where you want to go.

Anyway Merry Christmas to all.

[silverelise]

Absolutely plumbing the depths of journolistic integrity to give this thug airtime.
Are you suggesting there is more journalistic integrity in only interviewing people who say nice things?:eek:

[ornithopter]

"Giving someone a good kicking" is hardly a mild thing to say. Just stop and think for a moment what it means.

Algy - while we can be quite scathing of some aspects of BA, I have to say that the facts in this case have been horrendously mis-reported, by most of the news sources around. If you take your suit back, it can be replaced. If a flight is cancelled, you cannot re-make the time, try comparing eggs with eggs. Look at other service industries (not industries that supply products).

When I had to divert for very good reasons one day, which were very well explained by the Captain and crew, some passengers were very understanding. A vocal minority were real gits, rude and very agressive. These are the type of people the newscasters interview, regardless of the facts, and they misrepresent the facts too because they are aggreived.

If BA was run by Richard Branson, the same facts would be reported very differently. BA need to learn that, but I fear they never will.

[PaulW]

Nice try about journalistic integrity. But when you can see the displeasure in the interviewers face that he hasnt got a bad news sound bite live on tv..it says a lot with no words required.

Anger and distress sells, discomfort and understanding doesnt.

Your right never mind the fact BA workers on the rock face are working hard. Where are BAs press office?......anyone....and if they do appear they are woefully behind events. Thats where Virgin has it sown up... they are on the ball, and Richard Branson is a master of timing and PR.

[Stoic]

For goodness sake Olster, you sound like the man in the pub! Heathrow operates at almost 100% capacity thanks to market demand. When movements are dramatically slowed by prolonged low vis operations, it is inevitable that services will be cancelled.

Please throw out your prejudices and apply some logic. Good luck to the regional airports. But living, as I do, near London, LHR is easily my preferred departure point followed by Gatwick and Southampton. But I am much more likely to be screwed up by traffic problems on the M4/M25/M3 than by the rare air traffic problems at LHR, so I prefer, as do many people living near London do, to use LHR. That is the reason for its astonishing success despite the fact that it is a prisoner of its history.

Until technology provides a system that does not require increased separation during low vis operations, there will always be delays at LHR during prolonged fog.

Why aren't you whingeing about the complete closure of London City and Coventry?

Merry Xmas.

Stoic - Long-retired BA747 Classic.

[Binder]

Well if 'BA' in the so called 'thugs' original quote was replaced by 'Ryanair' then I suspect nobody would be so quick to condemn this guy or the BBC.

He was expressing his own opinion, something which we are less at liberty to do in 'Blair Britain'.

His mistake of course was chosing to fly from LHR which is nothing short of a third world airport. If he was flying short haul he would have been better off flying Easyjet (96% flying program intact) or other LOCos.

Are BA really bothered about short haul?

Binder

[Algy]

Sure, there are plenty of obnoxious passengers, just like every other sector of humanity. The point is that if you're making money out of a service industry then you've got to deliver.

In my business we sell information. If people think we're rubbish then we may curse them, but we do it in private and at least most of the time we quietly admit that perhaps we did something that was rubbish. And if someone actually calls me then I'll have the guts to admit it was rubbish. But, above all, if we keep doing it then we know we're toast.

I'm sorry, but the air transport industry is in collective denial. It's a financial failure, it's a laughing stock among its customers, and it still thinks it's doing a great job.

Well, there are tens of thousands of people in the business who are doing fantastic jobs - a lot of them built this forum and I salute them - but unfortunately they're let down by dire collective management.

I know about this - I think I'm doing the best job I can in an industry that gets just as much contempt. Difference is - you don't have to buy a magazine, but you may have to get from A to B.

[PaulW]

If you were running an airline and had to choose between cancelling 3 low yield paris flights which passengers could find alternative forms of transport and most importantly be replaced with one 747 or 777 flight later in the day with most passengers having hand luggage only, or prioritise high yield longhaul flights which are which have a low frequency of services and cannot be corrected through using a larger aircraft type later in the day. That and the head ache of dealing with all the luggage to repatriate and store on the airfield. What decision would you make?

[Algy]

I've got my doubts about them - see here (http://shortlinks.co.uk/t9) and here (http://shortlinks.co.uk/ta). But they have a business model that (for now) works, and which I have no doubt they will tilt towards the passenger if more competition emerges.

The scene: with (my) wife, satisfactorily smutty, artistic and gastronomic weekend in Tuscany. Screw up buses in downtown Siena, miss flight from Pisa. Go to Ryanair desk (initial fare £180 each), admit incompetence, charged 75 euros supplement each, booked on flight at crack of dawn next day. Total time ~10 minutes.

Next day, leave hand baggage in taxi at 05:00, endure wrath of wife, quietly wish for gentle coronary. Go back to faintly surprised Ryanair guy, admit have only got passports in my posession - please, please re-issue tickets. Sure signor, no prob. Total time ~10 minutes.

(Taxi driver returns with hand baggage, marriage intact, on-time to Stansted, 2hr stationary on M25...)

But the point is: I get precisely what I pay (not very much) for, delivered with total efficiency.

[DJRC]

If (as the man in the video suggests) it was the top dog at BAA who put the fog there, then I would be first in line to give him a festive kicking, as I have just had to fork out anther £210 to get home for Christmas.

[Jox]

Dear Santa,

Please may I have for Christmas, an airport near West London where the sun always shines, where the wind never blows, where BA are not recognised as being the only airline that operate from it, where the BAA are not to blame for everything including the weather and where ATC do not get a kicking for every other issue that is not the responsibility of the aforementioned two.

Please may the world now live in peace and harmony and blame the big man upsatirs who allegedly has responsibility for the weather and who never receives the blame and whose name is taken in vain by every whinging pax in front of a camera.

Merry Christmas

Jox ( aged 13 3/4 ) I wish..............:ok:

[Jox]

Just so that Santa does not get the blame...........:E


'TWAS THE NIGHT...etc., etc.

Twas the night before Christmas, and out on the ramp,
Not an airplane was stirring, not even a Champ.
The aircraft were fastened to tiedowns with care,
In hopes that come morning, they all would be there.
The fuel trucks were nestled, all snug in their spots,
With gusts from two-forty at 39 knots.
I slumped at the fuel desk, now finally caught up,
And settled down comfortably, resting my butt.
When the radio lit up with noise and with chatter,
I turned up the scanner to see what was the matter.
A voice clearly heard over static and snow,
Called for clearance to land at the airport below.
He barked his transmission so lively and quick,
I'd have sworn that the call sign he used was "St. Nick".
I ran to the panel to turn up the lights,
The better to welcome this magical flight.
He called his position, no room for denial,
"St. Nicholas One, turnin' left onto final."
And what to my wondering eyes should appear,
But a Rutan-built sleigh, with eight Rotax Reindeer!
With vectors to final, down the glideslope he came,
As he passed all fixes, he called them by name:
"Now Ringo! Now Tolga! Now Trini and Bacun!
On Comet! On Cupid!" What pills was he takin'?
While controllers were sittin', and scratchin' their head,
They phoned to my office, and I heard it with dread,
The message they left was both urgent and dour:
"When Santa pulls in, have him please call the tower."
He landed like silk, with the sled runners sparking,
Then I heard "Left at Charlie," and "Taxi to parking."
He slowed to a taxi, turned off of three-oh
And stopped on the ramp with a "Ho, ho-ho-ho..."
He stepped out of the sleigh, but before he could talk,
I ran out to meet him with my best set of chocks.
His red helmet and goggles were covered with frost
And his beard was all blackened from Reindeer exhaust.
His breath smelled like peppermint, gone slightly stale,
And he puffed on a pipe, but he didn't inhale.
His cheeks were all rosy and jiggled like jelly,
His boots were as black as a cropduster's belly.
He was chubby and plump, in his suit of bright red,
And he asked me to "fill it, with hundred low-lead."
He came dashing in from the snow-covered pump,
I knew he was anxious for drainin' the sump.
I spoke not a word, but went straight to my work,
And I filled up the sleigh, but I spilled like a jerk.
He came out of the restroom, and sighed in relief,
Then he picked up a phone for a Flight Service brief.
And I thought as he silently scribed in his log,
These reindeer could land in an eighth-mile fog.
He completed his pre-flight, from the front to the rear,
Then he put on his headset, and I heard him yell, "Clear!"
And laying a finger on his push-to-talk,
He called up the tower for clearance and squawk.
"Take taxiway Charlie, the southbound direction,
Turn right three-two-zero at pilot's discretion"
He sped down the runway, the best of the best,
"Your traffic's a Grumman, inbound from the west."
Then I heard him proclaim, as he climbed thru the night,
"Merry Christmas to all! I have traffic in sight."

[fox niner]

Priceless....Exellent!

With all the fog around it looks like a white christmas after all...

[Bandit650]

That is pure class.:D
Cheers and merry xmas;)

[firstchoice7e7]

Just watched the video, Yawn not another whinging Ozzie! for a nation that are supposedly laid back id wish they would chill out a bit. Rant over:ugh:

[skyman771]

Please throw out your prejudices and apply some logic. ............... LHR is easily my preferred departure point followed by Gatwick and Southampton.
There clearly must must be other factors of influence for you to come out with this ! Speaking from 'out in the regions' you are as ever quoting self justifying garbage !:ugh: 'apply some logic' ??.... what IS the difference between 'preferred' as opposed to 'zero chioce' departure point when considering longhaul from the UK ? Also you conveniently choose not to pick up on the point made by 'offa' as to the disgusting third world conditions that exist in some passenger terminals even on a good day.
Construction of a new runway at LHR outside the current airport boundary is NEVER going to happen, nor can I see that Northolt can be incorporated into any effective strategy both for the same reasons that have proved so successful in preventing Maplin, and obstructing LGW & STN second runways. What we now experiencing at LHR are the unavoidable results of inept politicians who for over 25+ years have chosen to sit in their own personal comfort zones rather than developing a long term workable transport policy.

[JackOffallTrades]

Don't you just get sick of whinging aussies?

[Stoic]

771: The delays and cancellations are domestic and some European. The longhaul operation at LHR has, more or less, kept going.

If there is a market for regional longhaul, fine, go for it. You can, for example, fly on Continental from Bristol to New York. The brute fact is that the prosperity of the UK is centred on London and the South East and that is where the major market for longhaul aviation is centred.

We live in a market economy. You would hardly like to return to the days when the target load factor on BOAC was 56% so that there was always spare capacity and Tridents were the only aircraft capable of autolanding at LHR.

Regards

Stoic

[geraintw]

Whilst the chaps comments may be unpalattable to most here, if that's his view then so be it. I very much doubt anyone stood out in the queue on a cold December day with holiday plans going down the pan would be praising BA, BAA or any other airline. I also very much doubt the journo concerned would know what his interviewee was going to say, the usual rules are no swearing etc and then the journo will tell him/her what questions will be asked.

I very much suspect it was a figure of speech and despite all the indignant righteousness that appears here I'm sure people here have been peeved enough to make similar comments when narked off about things in life be it a traffic jam or something else.

Yes, there's sloppy and poor journalism, the same as occasionally there are sloppy standards at airports and dare I say it, onboard aircraft. Annoying - undoubtedly, but they are not pilots etc - they're journo's - after facts, more often than not quickly and, unfortunately, as you see from the range of 'professionals' speaking out on topics not everyone seems to sing from the same hymn sheet. So, who do you interview and believe? Certainly when I've seen people on here who do take the time to ask, they are met with pretty negative comments.

And no, i'm not a journo :}

[BYALPHAINDIA]

they cant help the fog but ofter the lack of information can be blamed on them!
I was stuck in LHR a year ago with lots of cancelations ,with out any info from BA!
So a kicking ,NO ,but keep waiting people informed!

Neil

I am sure Lord Marshall & Lord King would give BA a 'Proffesional' old fashioned kicking if they were still running the shop!

I have always believed BA has gone 'downhill' since they left?

Regards.:hmm:

[TBirdFrank]

This situation is now in its third day and I just can't for the life of me see why there isn't a different management approach to the problem

Surely most of the people at LHR are now long distance connecting travellers. No-one traveling internally into the UK should be there at all - London with its surface transport to all parts is only an hour away - as for baggage - why is that not going to the carousels rather than waiting forlornly for a connecting flight that isn't there?

After half a day there should have been some liaison with the ferry operators surely - The continent is only an hour away from Dover and there is an almost infinite number of ferries there still.

Once on the continent there are fast links from Calais and Dunkirk to AMS and CDG.

This really is a crisis of forethought rather than a crisis that is unavoidable

[mocoman]

mmm, hang on Frank,

I am a regular flyer and yet tomorrow I have to go to EGLL and deal with these apparant field-hospital conditions to go and visit the MIL.

I'm a regular driver to and thru the Continent so it doesn't scare me but THIS time we wanted to fly for various reasons.

Am I complaining? No.

I am anticipating a nasty experience at T1 that will NOT be due to any front-seat or NATS personnel.

The whole nissen-hut experience seems to engender some kind of camraderie in the media mind and I cannot imagine why these sort of situations are handled in this way. Beeb and SKY love it; Dunkirk Spirit and all that bo**ox.

If any of those horn-playing wan*ers come within 100ft of me tomorrow I may not be held responsible for my actions!!

[Jerricho]

Nice work Jox :ok:

I love that prose ;)

[fmgc]

I am sure that he said "BAA needs a good kicking", "not BA", but the second "A" was very faint.

[Few Cloudy]

Well the good news a bit further up the thread is that the airline "which had you trooping up to Luton..." was Swissair!

Nice to see you back guys.

By the by, that comment goes to show how little Joe Public tries to understand ops decisions by airlines in the face of weather problems.

Someone should do something about it - but er not if it inconveniences me...

[El Grifo]

I think the guy was not too far off the mark.

In a Corporate sense I believe that a "good kicking" is exactly what BAA requires.

The operation is a blot on the UK corprorate landscape and an embarrasment to the nation.

Merry Christmas to the hard working and long suffering staff of said dis-organization. :ok:

[offa]

There are three guilty parties in this farce .....
1) BA who made a business decision to put all it's eggs in one basket(case) airport that is at least one runway too little or two terminals too much and with no decent rail connections to the rest of the UK ..... London is NOT the UK!
2) Successive governments who have made NO decisions regarding expansion of UK airports over the past 50 years.
3) BAA who has turned their airports into shopping arcades connected to aircraft with dismal little passages and threadbare carpets.

[flaps to 60]

Stuck out here down the line with only BBC News 24 to listen to (dont speak French Spanish or Italian etc) Im pretty sure the news reporter said (note at the end) that BA had cancelled the same proportion of flights as other LHR operators like British Midland or what ever they're called today.
This for the BBC represents fair and balanced journalism.
I am pretty sick of the anti BA stance of the press when earlier this year with the liquid bomb plots which were targeted against US airlines and yet every report on TV had a BA plane as the back drop. Not once did i see an American airline ie the ones targeted used in any news flash. Unfortunately some SLF are not blessed with a full deck or read reasonably decent papers to understand the difference and will cancel or not book with BA.
Note how the British just said Dashed shame old bean or jolly bad show and the Aussie wanted to give some one a good kicking:ok:

Sunfish

Do i detect a dislike of pilots and cabin crew.

"Yes, the Airport needs a good kicking, as does BA, as do pilots who call passengers "Self Loading Freight".
The behaviour of major airlines under these circumstances really annoys me because they assume you will patiently stand around for hours waiting to climb into a dirty aluminium tube crewed by sullen morons who will eventually attempt to take you somewhere near where you want to go."
Its that very attitude that pilots call passengers SLF except freight doesnt get shirty or abuse crew (who want to get home just as much as you do) or arrive late at the gate and delay everyone else.
Merry Christmas one and all and i hope those of you stuck due to this act of nature and not BA or even the BAA get home safely

[yoda1]

I don't think the genral public understand why fog causes such a disruption so don't be to hard on them := :O .

One lady presenter on sky news said "i don't underatand why planes can't fly in this weather with all their modern electronic devices" and my father said the same thing! Off course after i explained it to him he understood. partly the media's fault.....

:p

[Phil Space]

It is a sad fact of life that for most of us in the UK Heathrow and to a lesser degree Gatwick are the airports from which most long haul flights depart.

To get to the departure gate usually takes hours from the point of departure via maybe a couple of hours trying to check in.

The nightmare of the M25 is part of the process.

Is it not time for a more strategic approach to long haul flying to avoid the funnelling of passenger to a choke point. I wonder how many London departing passengers live outside the S.East.

I tend to use regional airports such as Norwich to connect to Schipol en-route to the Far East and Oz. Ten minute check in with no queues and baggage checked to destination.

[Algy]

Some other people who you'd think would do better. (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6665744)

[emnm]

I am SLF myself and i feel that I have to stick up for BAA and you pro`s regarding all this media hype and passenger moaning.
The main point seem to be is that why can`t planes take of and land in fog. Well yes they can, but not in the same amounts as on a nice clear sunny day when you can see for miles, not just yards.
It seems to me that the flights were cancelled due to safety reason, for me thats the best possible reason.
I for one don`t just only read the media hype, I read what the people who matter say, you Gents and Ladies, and it does seem that BA cancelled some flight to take the pressure of the fog bound airports. Another good choice.
As for some of the passenger comments, don`t they read papers of watch news channels, they could then see that there were problems, not caused by any human factor. Not one person has blamed Mother Nature.
I just hope that if some of you pro`s are stuck somewhere, that you do get home and have a great Christmas.

[Bagso]

....problem is not with another runway its simply force of nature...

plus how will a 3rd runway increase the capacity in the air over the South East that is the real problem, too many flights and too little airspace.....!

A 3rd runway is only of use if traffic stays at the same level - it would just be filled up !

I don't suppose you could spare us a few more long haul flights up here at Manchester, we have as many domestic connections as AMS and that way us Northerners wouldn't clog up Heathrow, and we would'nt have to get in the way by being shuttled down to an already overcrowded South East airports system !

[daedalus]

Excuse my pathetic ignorance of technical aviation matters, but I always thought fog was a problem for landing and not taking off. This fog was caused by high pressure which keeps pollutants close to the ground by the pressure of descending air. The layer of fog should therefore be relatively shallow and an aircraft taking off soon out of it and in clear blue sky.
Is the problem then manoevring on the ground, finding the correct runway and such or is it the taking off as such once on the correct runway?
Would be grateful for elucidation on this point.
Live in Luxembourg and the airport at Findel is notoriously subject to fog, especially in November. Apocryphal story is that when the Nazis invaded in 1940 they asked the locals where the best place to build an airport was and the locals said "Findel, of course."
I have taken off from Findel in fog and the fog was dense but only about 15 metres deep. If you ascended a fire-brigade ladder you were out of the fog and into brilliant sunshine.:confused:

[Carnage Matey!]

The fog is not caused by pollutants, is caused by water particles in saturated air. The delays are due to problems landing, not taking off, and only mildly exacerbated by ground movement problems. We could fire all the aircraft off into the sky in fairly short order, the problem is it would take half the week to get them back to LHR.

[13Alpha]

Bagso

Absolutely correct.

Not only that but some more international flights to the North (and better rail links) might attract more jobs and more tourism away from London, meaning we don't all have to move South for work, thereby reducing the pressure not just on the transport network in the SE, but the NHS, the greenbelt, house prices, the reservoirs, the sewers, the pie shops :p ...

You can't really blame the airlines, like any business, they're going to favour whatever will give them the best return for their shareholders over the shortest period. What's needed is a bit of leadership from central government to address the causes of the overcrowding in the SE, not just sticking plaster over the symptoms.

[Gonzo]

Daedalus,

Our departure rate does go down in LVPs, but nowhere near the decrease in the landing rate. The problem comes, as Carnage Matey says, when we run out of a/c to depart, as they're still waiting to land!

[PAXboy]

BYALPHAINDIAInstead of being 'just another number' I co
I am sure Lord Marshall & Lord King would give BA a 'Proffesional' old fashioned kicking if they were still running the shop!Really? And which of those nice Lords presided over the Dirty Tricks against Virgin Atlantic??

The Dirty Tricks episode was in the late 80s and early 90s. As far as I recall without searching out my copy of the book, the face of Lord King appeared on the front cover of one of the paperback editions. AND for those that like to bash SRB, don't forget that he divided his compensation among his staff, calling it the "BA bonus".

No, I am not employed by any airline company I am a passenger. Just please don't have such short memories as the meedja.

[Airbus Unplugged]

Heathrow is a microcosm of today’s UK. Everywhere you look, creaking infrastructure, systemic underinvestment, a total absence of integrated transport policy, private contractors squeezing every penny from the operation for management reward, the cheapest staff they can get, every facility operating on max to overheat, a constant state of crisis.

Add to that a government with an insane paranoia over security, and the whole place grinds to a halt at the first perturbation.

I’m not accusing Heathrow not trying, it’s just that every other airport in Europe does it so much better. I’d feel 20 years younger if I reported at MUC everyday!

No longer fit-for-purpose.:ugh:

[cwatters]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2516881,00.html
As queues grow, planes take off with empty seats
Selected quote:
The Times discovered that dozens of BA flights took off with empty seats. The 7.45am to Munich left with 11 empty seats, despite a queue of more than a hundred passengers trying to leave for Germany.
Elyse Kerr, 42, a hotel manager, said that she had been waiting for a seat to Munich since Thursday morning. When she asked BA staff yesterday if she could get on the flight, she was told it had taken off with empty seats. “I was there waiting for that flight queuing non-stop and it went without us, with empty seats. We cannot believe it left without us,” she said.
PS: I don't think the persion who was interviewed meant "a good kicking" to mean "beaten up". His tone of voice suggests to me he meant "a kick up the backside".

[tilewood]

BYALPHAINDIAReally? And which of those nice Lords presided over the Dirty Tricks against Virgin Atlantic??
The Dirty Tricks episode was in the late 80s and early 90s. As far as I recall without searching out my copy of the book, the face of Lord King appeared on the front cover of one of the paperback editions. AND for those that like to bash SRB, don't forget that he divided his compensation among his staff, calling it the "BA bonus".
No, I am not employed by any airline company I am a passenger. Just please don't have such short memories as the meedja.


Lords King & Marshall turned round a union ridden, over staffed throwback
to the 1970's, into a world class airline. Many of the decisions they took
were not popular, and were sometimes ruthless, but they paid huge dividends
in securing the airline's efficiency, and therefore it's future.

However I am sure there are plenty who would like it to go back to being
Britain's answer to Aeroflot!

[Navajo8686]

As somebody who has spent the last 36 hours working at Heathrow repatriating passengers (sorry customers) by ground transportation who had to return from whence they came because they could not get to where they wanted to go I feel a bit qualified in commenting.

Most of them did not blame BA, most of them did not blame BAA and most of them did not blame God for the fog.

What they all said was a shambles was the organisation and lack of information - even though the situation was very fluid they weren't being told anything. Knowing that your Christamas is definitely screwed up - bad as it is - is not as bad than somebody either giving false hope or deliberatley giving out false information to 'keep them quiet'.

The attitude of the BAA/HAL MD on Radio 4 tonight made me want to puke - when asked if the fog had damaged Haethrows reputation internationally as so many international flights had been cancelled he casually said that it was, in effect, a minor problem and as it was only domestic flights and short haul European flights that had been affected. I assume he does not know that Europe is international!

The multitudes of customers who had to transit down to Gatwick to make onward flights will no doubt have a view of Heathrow competence which will differ from his. Every one that transits via a Europen airport in the future instead of LHR is a fare lost. They (BAA), and all LHR airlines, staff and 'suppliers', cannot afford to p*ss off one passenger!


Nav

[chiglet]

daedelus,
I work in the Tower at Manchester, and I agree that in fog, we are "sometimes" in clear blue sky :ok:
However, imagine you driving a car at 240kph on a perfectly straight road.....then somebody suddenly puts a hood over your head, and says that you HAVE to slow down to 50kph inside 2.5km AND turn 30degrees left...then slow to 20kph to go to your stand.
Now, sit on the end of the runway. You have still got the hood over your head.....advance the throttles..you are moving...you get to [approx] 220kph and pull back on the stick...10 seconds later you are in clear blue sky... not a problem is it...but an engine has just failed... Put the hood back on....
Simplistc, YES but it is an "approach" [sorry] to the problem
watp,iktch

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

cwatters: I speak for all airline staff when I say that they'll be upset about having to send flights with some seats empty. However, given the inordinate length of the check-in queues, plus the current security arrangements, just getting passengers to the gates is equivalent to working a miracle. At some stage, the doors will have to close in order for the aircraft to meet its ATC slot, full or not.

I too think that the Antipodean gentleman's 'kicking' remark is fairly mild. "You snotty-nosed Limey purp!! Get me on that Goddam airplane!!" is one of the more memorable (and printable) forms of abuse that I've received in similar circumstances. :ooh: (Yes, he was from New York, or thereabouts.)

[silverelise]

If this fog episode has shown us anything it is IMO the slim margins within which the whole Heathrow operation exists. The system runs so close to limits normally that as soon as bad weather reduces flow rates there is massive disruption. In a peverse way it's a credit to the people who keep the machine running so smoothly so often that it takes something like this to highlight something which we take for granted is running on such a knife edge. The train system and tube system in London is run in a similar way - when its all running fine you take it for granted and its only when there is a disruption that the whole system collapses and you realise how fragile the whole thing was in the first place.
Ultimately it's the governments fault but not this governments. The trouble is the longer we leave it the more we will just continue to paper over the cracks.
In the case of aviation unless they sanction second runways at Gatwick and Stanstead and further expansion at Heathrow then situations like this "bit of fog" (no belittling intended) will constantly highlight the United Kingdom as a third world country.

[Two's in]

Interesting that Denver has been shut down for 3 days due to snow, United and Frontier's schedules and positioning will be trashed for days, and yet somehow the public here seem to understand that the Wx is a function of someone a bit higher up the org chart than a BA or BAA Exec. Yes people are frustrated, yes people are angry, but why does the UK need someone to "blame". Too long on the Welfare tit to know any better I suppose.

[occasional]

In the case of aviation unless they sanction second runways at Gatwick and Stanstead and further expansion at Heathrow .......

Far more sensible would be to scrap the monopoly which benefits from the fact that passengers from all over the UK are transitted through the airport shopping malls of SE England.

[PAXboy]

tilewoodLords King & Marshall turned round a union ridden, over staffed throwback to the 1970's, into a world class airline.Yes they did and then they ruined their reputation, along with that of some of the staff. What I was saying is that we should not think that they were altogether wonderful. They are the reason that BA has been my second choice for travel for some 15 years and I am not the only one.

However I am sure there are plenty who would like it to go back to being Britain's answer to Aeroflot!Eh??? I don't think that for a momnent and have never heard anyone suggest it! They do however, want the airline to return to the levels of service and scope of destinations that it had ten years ago.


silvereliseThe system runs so close to limits normally that as soon as bad weather reduces flow rates there is massive disruption.Yes, that is a well known fact.
In a peverse way it's a credit to the people who keep the machine running so smoothly so oftenIt is not a perverse credit - it is an actual credit and one that many are aware of. If you think of the days when one of the runways is closed for even an hour, leave alone a day, the back-log takes a long time to clear.

The train system and tube system in London is run in a similar wayCorrect. All governments of the past 30 years (and probably longer) have all banked on the staff to keep the merde and the rotating blades separate.


occasionalFar more sensible would be to scrap the monopoly which benefits from the fact that passengers from all over the UK are transitted through the airport shopping malls of SE England.I cannot see how it makes any differance. If LHR is owned by one company who do nothing elses it will still be first choice for the majority and over subscribed. The only way out of the chaos is to have a third runway but only a VERY limited increase in a/c movements. Say an increase of 33% and then the a/c on approach won't have to hold all the time (saving tons and tons of fuel and time) and then there will be spare capacity for when one of the actives has to be closed or, some fog.

[Orvil]

Hi,
I think this situation is a national disgrace. BAA should be broken up. They should have been better prepared. After all the incidents in the last few years (Gate Gourmet/Terrorist Incidents), a plan of action should of been acted straight away, preventing such a mess.
Here's some suggestions:-
Set up marques for destinations (not airlines), then empty flights wouldn't exist as people could be found to fill them up.
Airlines should now be able to in this day and age text all pax to specific flights. If advertiser and scammers can send me texts why not airlines? The technology is there why not use it?
Sack the peolple in charge.
Make it an airport again.
In the future, this will happen again. The govt haven't got the balls to do anything as they're in hock with big business. The only winner I can see is SRB and Virgin. I predict that he'll swollow up BMI in the next 12 months.
So when this happens again He'll move his pax around the country on His trains to airports at minimal cost. Eg, London to Manchester, flight cancelled put them on the train! BA will be wrong footed (again) and will have to pay a premium to use the same service. He'll also be able work the long haul operation around the train arrival times.
The futures Orange? No a lady in Red Swimsuit!
Merry Christmas
Orvil

OOps, slightly off track (no pun intended)

[Gonzo]

Expansion at Heathrow (third runway, mixed mode etc) would have only made this week far worse than it has been. Does anyone really think that BAA will build a third runway and [B]not[B]fill all the slots as soon as it can, but leave some quiet periods of the day as 'firebreaks'?

[M.Mouse]

Orvil

You are sadly deluded if you believe what you have just written.

[harpic]

From the DT today ..............

Heathrow's problems hidden by fog

Cancelled flights, packed terminals, angry passengers, ruined holidays. The folk who run Heathrow airport will smile with relief as they raise their glasses in a silent toast of congratulations. Because they got away with it.


Link

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml;jsessionid=PGC2ZO11QFPUPQFIQMGCFGGAVCBQUIV0?xml=/opinion/2006/12/24/do2410.xml&posted=true&_requestid=425598

[DUB-GREG]

Interesting slant on the whole thing... how true it is, thats another story!

Good read though! ;)

[bilderberger]

Having flown out of Heathrow for many years I don't doubt the truth of this piece. In fact it's probably more true than the author realises.

[View From The Ground]

The DT has it spot on...an astute bit of observation...he is quite right that the tents were going to go up even before the fog hit, to manage pax loads in T1. I also experienced way back in September a 90 minute wait for my baggage in T1, so this issue has been going on for some time without resolution.
Although a break up of the BAA is a good idea, if they still hold the ace card of LHR it will I am afraid be a largely pointless exercise. The only way to ensure true competition would be to have different Companies managing each Terminal. Unfortunately this is an operational impossibility unless someone much brighter than me can think of a way to make it work.
In truth the frontline staff of both organisations do a reasonable job, given the mismanagement that they are lumbered with.

[Getoutofmygalley]

Orvil

Do you know how many different destinations LHR serves? You would need marques from Heathrow right up the piccadilly line to Central London if you had marques for the destinations, rather than the way it has been done.

Text messaging is a fine idea, but at this time of year you can not guarantee a sent text going through straight away. I am sure everyone with a mobile phone has experienced a text delay of a few hours (usually at busy periods) - so it can not be deemed as a reliable piece of technology. Who would be responsible for the text message failure? the airline? The mobile phone service provider?

[occasional]

Far more sensible would be to scrap the monopoly which benefits from the fact that passengers from all over the UK are transitted through the airport shopping malls of SE England.


As a passenger who has spent the last 30 years transiting through London airports because of the inadequacy of flights from elsewhere in Britain, I have to suggest that there is considerable doubt about the real necessity for new London runways.

For example, it makes no sense at all that until very recently, on many days, there were no flights at all from Scotland to Malaga, and yet one could choose from over 50 from London to the same destination.

The part played by BAA and its predecessors in this is probably no worse than idleness, but when they start claiming that new runways are needed it is appropriate to consider why they have apparently failed to examine more sensible alternatives.

[Liam82]

Sometimes as we know the problem with airlines not giving passengers information is they to do not know whats going on themselves, not in every case, but some.

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

...he is quite right that the tents were going to go up even before the fog hit....

Ahhh, tents at Heathrow. We come full circle. Weren't there tents at Heathrow when the airport first opened in the late 1940s because part of the original terminal wasn't ready ?

[BIGBATMAN]

The tents would normally go up because chrismas tends to be busy and tends to attract people to arrive alot earlier becuase they are told by the press its christmas they need more time!! therefore increasing the passenger figure at the airport at anyone time and filling up the terminals.

Also the staff know that is going to be crap and go sick, stop O/T, only go in when they a rostered who wants crap at work if you can avoid it by just doing what your rostered!!
And them who do have a bad time late breaks, etc, then they get the understandable hassle from the passengers. I dont blame the staff leaving!!

The fog was known about at the airport at least a good 24 hours before it arrived at least at the airport, even the weather people on the tv got this one right!!

Maybe if all them years of public reviews about T5 were not wasted it would be open and have more indoor space for the passengers just another thought, not the answer i know just a factor.

preparing to get blasted.

[woodpecker]

If you look closely, to the north of 27R/9L, the taxiways are still there that lead to the original apron served by the tented village. The original "tower" is still there (used to have a plaque next to it) just to the east of the central area tunnel entrances.

[ABX]

I have always thought that departures were delayed by fog because of the risk that you might need to return to the fog bound airport you just departed for some reason (EFATO for example).

I once witnessed a Chieftain depart ABX when the airport was closed by fog, the pilot was later summoned by the tower and CASA to explain ...

I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Cheers,

ABX

[Flightman]

"Next year, the new Terminal Five will open"

No. It will open in 2008. Muppets.

[Piltdown Man]

But will T5 really solve Heathrows problems? It will just be a place for pax to wait whilst the approach, runways and aprons are full to capacity. For too long LHR has been baled out by the incredible effort by ATC and it's Ops guys (and girls). When seasonal weather causes LVP's to be put in place the true capacity of the place becomes very apparent. I'm glad my livelihood doesn't depend on the bean counters at BAA!

PM.

[spinnaker]

I have always thought that departures were delayed by fog because of the risk that you might need to return to the fog bound airport you just departed for some reason (EFATO for example).
No. You have to have a Take Off Alternate.

[att]

The golden age of flying has long since departed the terminal.
I enjoyed whilst it lasted, it was fun.
The only single reason I will not fly any longer is the attitude of the Western population.
The prospect of going to an Airport in this country(UK) leaves me cold, as does the American situation.
The travelling public of the UK now see the experience as something else to whinge, moan about, whilst at the same time practising their territorial rights:rolleyes:

The US are more paranoid than ever and it is only a question of time when mob rule takes over in an airport near you.

The situation in the UK does not suprise me one iota, we have had 10 years of being fed and operating on bulls*it from the top (Bliar)
This has permeated every sector of industry and society and what we are seeing now are the results of a Country that has no substance or base to which it can operate from. Sad really that a once great Country is now only a tracing paper image of it`s former self.

RIP UK.

[cwatters]

cwatters: I speak for all airline staff when I say that they'll be upset about having to send flights with some seats empty. However, given the inordinate length of the check-in queues, plus the current security arrangements, just getting passengers to the gates is equivalent to working a miracle.

I agree it's difficult and I'm sure staff on the ground have worked exceptionally hard (eg it's not your fault). If I wanted to play devils advocate I would point out that an aeroplane can only hold so many people so in theory there is a maximium length to a check-in queue....and since traffic flows were reduced there were less people who actually needed to check in. It's managing the rest of the people that needs improving.

Another letter in the papers also made the point... I'll paraphrase... "They are quick enough to call me when they want to bump me off an over booked flight... Why can't they call me to tell the flight is cancelled?"

[fireflybob]

This might sound a bit simplistic but surely the answer is do NOT fly into or from LHR!

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

The 'Tented Village'. Note 'Security' at the entrance.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/Georgeablelovehowindia/lhr46pax.jpg

and the 'Operations Block'. The bus is a British Airways one.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/Georgeablelovehowindia/lhr46ops.jpg

:)

[Shagtastic]

Wasn't surprised to see Natasha ('Doh..' meaningful glance downwards) Kapinsky standing next to a fogged out LHR asking the General Manager of NATS why he had chosen to cancel all flights..:ugh:

Ah, the BBC.

Shags

[Iceman49]

The problem is numbers…the population is now increasing at an exponential rate. The NIMBYS (not in my backyard crowd), do not want any expansion of the airports because of noise and traffic, but they want the convenience of a close travel center. That coupled with ridiculously low airfares, makes for a disastrous recipe. Just filling aircraft with low fares causes abnormally low yields with nothing left over for improvements to the basic infrastructure. Itis not going to get better as long as its cheaper to fly than to drive.

[jayceehi]

The BBC??

Should we start a new thread on CNN?
Cut from the same cloth I figure......
Merry Christmas to all
jaycee

[Orvil]

M.MOUSE.
Why am I deluded? SRB has more or less implied that he wanted to join up his train service and airline. He said this when the Stern Report came out in October. He said that short-haul was more polluting and that it would be more environmentally friendly/efficient for people to use trains. He used London to Manchester as an example.
He has already "joined up" is media empire (NTL/Virgin mobile/Digital TV) which is now going to be called Virgin Media. Why should Transport be any different?
Getoutofmy
May be I wasn't clear enough. It could be a group of destinations, I didn't mean to imply that every destination would have a individual marque. It still would be simpler to put people in destinations ie. France/Germany than the mess at present with all people mixed up.
The mobile phone system wouldn't crash as it would be a general broadcast from a specific cell/transmitter at LHR. An example of this is the RAC/AA traffic watch you can use when travelling. The technology is very specific now. So if you had 120 pax going to Frankfurt stuck at LHR it would only broadcast at the LHR cell for those specific pax. It's the only good thing about GPRS.
Even if it wasn't possible why don't BAA have those mobile message signs that you see at road works? They portable and could be put any where but then again that would inform people and prevent people from shopping!

Ho Ho
Orvil

[Goldstone]

The blame rests with BAA who fill up the terminal buildings with shops leaving no room for passenger holding areas when delays are being experienced.

Someone should point out to them that the purpose of airport terminals is to process passengers .... if people want to shop they can go to shopping malls or the high street.

[PAXboy]

occasionalThe part played by BAA and its predecessors in this is probably no worse than idleness, but when they start claiming that new runways are needed it is appropriate to consider why they have apparently failed to examine more sensible alternatives.I do not think that it is just BAA's fault. When they were privatised - what responsibility was placed upon them for:

Maintaing spare capacity for emergencies?
Providing alternative destination departure points in the regions?
Ensuring that any growth in consumer demand was met in a measured way?
Keeping a balance of traffic and the capacity of the area surrounding their airports?
???
The answer is, I think, None. They were privatised in 1987 for the usual reasons: To make a short term financial gain for the govt of the day and to release future politicians from being asked awkward questions when things went wrong.

Unless I much mistake, this is another triumph of Margaret Thatcher's era that has come home to roost.

[harpic]

Goldstone wrote -

The blame rests with BAA who fill up the terminal buildings with shops leaving no room for passenger holding areas when delays are being experienced.

Hear Hear never a truer word. I get really p****d off having to walk through acres (or should that be hectars) of retail space before reaching the gate. Airports are part of the transport infrastructure not a marketing opportunity.

[Rollingthunder]

And it's not even duty-free. I buy mine on-board and save 30-40% over prices at LHR.

[ABX]

Thanks for your reply. :ok:

ABX is a regional airport with the nearest alternate over 75km away, would fog make a difference to your answer given that there is no alternate close by?

Cheers mate & merry Christmas.

ABX

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

ABX: 75km! On the 737 and 757 in my UK airline our takeoff alternate had to be within 250nm. and on the DC-10 it was 400nm.

Merry Christmas to you too. I suppose the celebrations are well and truly underway Dununda, although Mrs G's Auntie Pat says it's not such a nice day in Sydney. :)

[ABX]

Yep, we're right into it here, SYD and ABX are pretty cold - well, in perspective, 19 degrees C and windy is cold for our typical summer - but we wouldn't let a little thing like the wx hold us back from a celebration now would we?

Regarding my posts on alternates, I guess 75km is pretty close in a jet, I am more used to thinking in terms of a 172.:}

Cheers,

ABX

[Semaphore Sam]

Of course. Talk about captive audiences! If they weren't able to get huge (30-40%) overrides on prices, would these retailers even bother? They have an audience with time on its hands (and very little else to do, inasmuch as few people nowadays read for recreation). So, it's all to the 'good' (for retailers and Authorities) to have huge delays, and check-ins 3-4 hrs ahead of blockout times. Same in the States...Dallas, SF, Kennedy are huge marketing bonanzas for the retailers who control the 'waiting' areas. No place to sit, only to wander, wander through the wonderland of.....the forced shopping mall! So...who expects any change? Sam

[alexban]

I wonder how will be if the 380 ever starts flying into LHR,making it a more congested 'hub',if possible...