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ORAC
20th Dec 2006, 07:02
The Independent: (http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2086680.ece) France hopes to set world speed record of 342mph with new TGV

The French railways will attempt to raise the world speed record for a conventional train to at least 342mph in the new year - smashing their own 16-year-old record. Tests with a new generation high-speed train, or train à grande vitesse (TGV), will attempt to push the speed record for steel wheels on steel rails to at least 550kph (342 mph) and possibly 570kph (354mph).

The tests will try out a new line to the east, from Paris to Metz, which is due to open to the public at a maximum speed of 320kph (200mph) in June. The record attempt will also make a strong statement that France is ready to take on competition from Japan and Germany in the multibillion-pound market for high-speed trains.

The record for conventional trains is 515.3kph (320mph), which was set by the French railways, SNCF, in 1990. Monorail or magnetic levitation trains have reached higher speeds on experimental tracks. The tests will form part of a "programme of French high-speed excellence" launched yesterday by the Transport Minister, Dominique Perben. A new, more powerful type of double-decker TGV - to be unveiled in the next couple of days by Alstom, the French transport engineering company - will make runs east of Paris from February.

Philippe Mellier, the president of Alstom's transport division, said yesterday that a shortened train of two power cars and two carriages would attempt to reach 570kph. M. Mellier denied reports that SNCF and Alstom would try to smash the 600kph barrier. The tests will nonetheless take rail travel almost up to commercial aircraft speeds. In the medium term, SNCF hopes to upgrade all its high-speed lines to 320kph, possibly 360kph (224mph), for ordinary service trains........

green granite
20th Dec 2006, 07:54
Soon won't need aircraft for continental travel it'll be quicker by train :hmm:

Meanwhile Britain still goes "click click click clack" :ugh::ugh:

ORAC
20th Dec 2006, 08:06
No, no, it´s "diddledydum, diddledydee, diddledydum, diddledydee, diddledydum, diddledydee, CLICKETY CLACK, CLICKETY CLACK, diddledydum, diddledydee, diddledydum, diddledydee.........

chuks
20th Dec 2006, 08:44
I was flying down the middle of Spain once in clear weather with one of those high-speed trains down there below me when I was doing about 390 knots. The usual sort of train just passes behind the aircraft fairly quickly but this thing took a long time to overtake so that it must have been doing a good 200 knots or so.

We often use the German ICE, the main competitor to the French TGV design. It's really nice to go wafting along with the speed display showing big numbers. Just don't start doing the maths for the amount of energy you get by halving the mass and multiplying that by the square of the speed. You are sat there in a rolling bomb!

tony draper
20th Dec 2006, 08:58
Time we went back to Clip clop clip clop clippity clop!,all this lust for sped int natural I tells yer,no good will come of it.
:rolleyes:

Shaggy Sheep Driver
20th Dec 2006, 09:53
How come the French (and most of the rest of europe) will invest in really useful infrastructure like a high speed train network, while we tinker about with our 19th century railway (wasting billons in the process) and think it's good if a train occasionally gets up to 125mph (when it's not broken down, that is).

The only bit of high speed line in UK links London to that European network. :rolleyes:

Arm out the window
20th Dec 2006, 10:00
Oi Draper, have you written a book yet? If not, get to it!

The SSK
20th Dec 2006, 10:23
Soon won't need aircraft for continental travel it'll be quicker by train :hmm:


The Thalys does Paris-Brussels at an average speed of about 185km/h. It then continues to Amsterdam at an average speed of about 65km/h.

Reason? It stops in Antwerp, Rotterdam and The Hague.

Therein the problem with HSTs. They are competitive on point to point journeys where they can keep the speed up but where they pass big cities that brings them down to conventional speeds.

The biggest air market by far on the Thalys network is Paris-Amsterdam, but to do that at true high speed would require the trains to go rocketing through the four big cities enroute - or the construction of a dedicated line - and why should Belgium give up a huge chunk of its countryside so that the French and the Dutch can get together quicker.

Krystal n chips
20th Dec 2006, 10:41
And in contrast.........

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3245706.stm

tony draper
20th Dec 2006, 10:43
Bah! trains used to travel at a sensible speed, the frequency of the clickity clack diddle bom diddly bom was just right to lull one into a contented kip in one's plush compartment,especialy if one had just returned from the dining car with a excellent dinner and a few [email protected] under ones belt,also the scenery moved past the window at a velocity that allowed one to appreciate it,if one was given to rubber necking.
Alus enjoyed the journey from Kings Cross to Newcastle,behind a proper steam locomotive of course.
:rolleyes:

chornedsnorkack
21st Dec 2006, 08:39
I
We often use the German ICE, the main competitor to the French TGV design. It's really nice to go wafting along with the speed display showing big numbers. Just don't start doing the maths for the amount of energy you get by halving the mass and multiplying that by the square of the speed. You are sat there in a rolling bomb!

Planes are flying bombs.

And unlike ICE, planes carry huge amounts of flammable jet fuel that will incinerate them once they crash. ICE energy comes by wire as needed, and hopefully the circuit might be somehow disconnected when the train crashes.

perkin
21st Dec 2006, 10:09
and why should Belgium give up a huge chunk of its countryside so that the French and the Dutch can get together quicker.

High speed line Brussels-Amsterdam and I think on into Germany is due to open shortly...Brussels to Calais & Paris already exists...

chornedsnorkack
21st Dec 2006, 10:29
The Thalys does Paris-Brussels at an average speed of about 185km/h. It then continues to Amsterdam at an average speed of about 65km/h.
Reason? It stops in Antwerp, Rotterdam and The Hague.
Er? Is it reason enough?

65 km/h is the average speed of Munich S-bahn, for crying out loud! Which has more than three stops.


The biggest air market by far on the Thalys network is Paris-Amsterdam, but to do that at true high speed would require the trains to go rocketing through the four big cities enroute - or the construction of a dedicated line - and why should Belgium give up a huge chunk of its countryside so that the French and the Dutch can get together quicker.

As the French boast, LGV Nord takes up less land than Roissy airport.

The Brussels-Amsterdam HSL would not only serve Paris-Amsterdam. It would also serve Brussels-Amsterdam and Brussels-Antwerp.

The SSK
21st Dec 2006, 10:57
The Brussels-Amsterdam HSL would not only serve Paris-Amsterdam. It would also serve Brussels-Amsterdam and Brussels-Antwerp.
That’s the point. If such a rail service were to be truly substitutable for air, there should be hourly Brussels-Paris and Brussels-Amsterdam nonstops, a slightly lower-frequency Paris-Amsterdam, plus 4x daily shuttles (high-speed railcars?) on Antwerp-Paris, Antwerp-Amsterdam, Rotterdam-Paris…
Plus you want to serve the airports, so you need a few Paris-Schiphol and Amsterdam-CDG nonstops in the mix, as well as Brussels to either airport.
Then you add Dusseldorf and Cologne into the mix (the Thalys network is basically T-shaped). You’ve got something like nine major citypairs and at least the same number of secondary ones, plus the airport routes, all served over the same tracks. There is no way it can be optimised for dedicated nonstop trains, they have to be stopping services – bye-bye high speed.

chornedsnorkack
21st Dec 2006, 11:16
As I mentioned, the Munich S-bahn is designed for average speed (with stops) of 65 km/h.

The other assumptions were 2,7 km average distance between stations, 0,1g acceleration and deceleration and 30 seconds dwell time in a stop.

65 km/h or 1,08 km/min means you have 2,5 minutes for a stop. 30 seconds dwell time, so this leaves 120 seconds doors closed to doors open 2700 m away. So, 81 km/h.

Now acceleration. If you accelerate in 30 s from 0 to 30 m/s, you have covered 450 m. Another 450 m is in 30 s deceleration... and 60 s at 30 m/s gives 1800, so here is your 2700 m.

30 seconds in stop, 30 seconds acceleration to 108 km/h, 60 s cruise at 108 km/h, 30 s deceleration. That´s how S-bahn has 65 km/h. The maximum speed is 120 km/h or so.

Now, imagine a TGV that has the capacity to accelerate at 0,1g. This is a comfort issue, so little point in accelerating faster.

If you are moving at 320 km/h, then deceleration to stop at 0,1 g would take about 90 s. Meanwhile, you cover 4 km. Accelerating to 320 km/h again is another 90 seconds and cover another 4 km. The dwell time in the station is unaccounted for. A train speeding along undisturbed would cover those 8 km in 90 seconds. Thus, a stop costs 90 seconds + dwell time in station.

If Paris - Amsterdam could be shortened to 2:00, would it be worth adding a few major destinations even if this stretches the time to 2:10 or 2:20?

perkin
21st Dec 2006, 11:17
Plus you want to serve the airports

Why serve the airports when the train is competing against domestic/short haul flight market? City centre to city centre is where the trains can compete. I just priced up The Hague to London by Thalys & Eurostar, changing once in Brussels & stopping at Rotterdam & presumably Ashford, at least. It takes 4.5-5hrs and is about the same cost as an airfare AMS-LGW/LHR, and centre to centre, takes about the same time...or considerably less if you got caught up in Tuesdays fog delays as I did...

chornedsnorkack
21st Dec 2006, 11:27
Why serve the airports when the train is competing against domestic/short haul flight market?

In order to undercut the connecting short-haul hops, perhaps?

If you want to catch a longhaul KLM or Martinair flight from Schiphol, what would you do? Fly to Schiphol and embark the plane? Travel by train nonstop to Amsterdam centre and start looking for taxi or bus or airport express to Schiphol? Or embark on a train to Amsterdam and simply get off in the stop before Amsterdam centre?