Pilot jailed (alcoholism & pilots) [Archive]

grimmrad

9th Dec 2006, 23:53

I have read all of both (perhaps you missed one?) of SAS's posts - indeed now for a second time at your behest SLF.
I understand (and have personal reason to do so) his anger and the harm that was done to himself/family/friends by a drunk driver.
I will still not support the premise that the individual concerned should "never, ever flys [sic] again".
If under reasonable professional measurement he is treated and cured (and one contributor who, apparently knows the individual concerned, suggests it was a 'one off aberration' along the lines of SAS's self admitted "reporting whilst not feeling 100%" rather than a deeply infiltrated problem) for a medically recognised condition it is my opinion that he should then -and only then - be able to continue to enjoy the priviliges of his licence in the same way that Chuck, a couple of colleagues who I have known and a larger number of their fellow professionals have done.

Just a question here and I might add that I am not a pilot but have a licence as well - isn't it exactly this "pivilege" of the licence that should not be taken for granted but requires the proper proffessional behavior and attitude to deserve it?
I have seen enough vicitms of drunken drivers (including children) that I can absolutely understand calls to remove those who inflicted this from their responsibility simply as they did not hold up to it (including revoking a license etc.). Please note - I am talking in general and are not making any judgment on the person in question.

JackOffallTrades

10th Dec 2006, 00:09

And exactly why have we resorted to comparing drunken drivers with pilots who have been over the limits on a breath test???

How many people have been killed by drunken drivers?

And how many by pilots who had one too many the night before?

Come on you statisticians......?

ray cosmic

10th Dec 2006, 00:43

To all you defenders of the involved Capt: It shows you have a social attitude and show you hope to be treated as social once you get caught in a situation like this. Life doesn't work this way. The guy f*cked up, okay? Sad for him but thats life. You know the rules of the game and should play by them. If you your wife walks in on you cheating, do you expect a second chance? Why does everyone always need a second chance. If you activate your brain, you might be able to picture the dire consequences of your own stupidities. Most pilots are not mentally challenged so they certainly should be able to do this. If you still manage to get caught, then it means you are really, really stupid. If you were already able to cross the line knowing what the results might be, what guarantees does society have you won't do it again? I feel for the guy, but he really should have called in sick.

- alcoholism is a desease
Tell that the people with cancer who always did everything they could to live a healthy life and still get sick and die. These people might claim the guy could have avoided his own disease by not lifting the glass to his mouth.

sinala1

10th Dec 2006, 01:04

RayCosmic - aviation aside, your statement regarding cancer sufferers etc etc shows your total lack of understanding of the mechanics of any form of addiction

b17heavy

10th Dec 2006, 01:20

Is this the puritanical thread ? Wasn’t sure due to the number of sanctimonious posts. As for the American contingent – jeeeze. You guys have the strangest drinking habits of all…

Ignition Override

10th Dec 2006, 04:54

What would have happened in Singapore?

How about a situation where the pilot had used some sort of mouthwash?
My general impressions of there that it is operated by a harsh, steel-fisted dictatorship where no rules are broken, due to very stern penalties for everything.

And in the other lands of the Middle East?
Would the prison sentence be longer in a country where alcohol is officially forbidden, but privately tolerated? :cool:

Capt. Queeg

10th Dec 2006, 07:19

Ive been drunk down route...Ive reported whilst not feeling 100%,

BUT - Anybody who has had to suffer the consequences of a drunk driver, as I have, will know exactly where I’m coming from.

Hypocrite??

I'm not judging JD but since you've had no qualms about doing so, yourself: It sounds like you're no better than he or the drunken driver you also refer to.

Please name the airline you currently work for so the masses can avoid placing their precious lives in your neglectful hands.

Another Number

10th Dec 2006, 08:08

Maybe "alcoholics" cannot be reformed.

Who'd want them in really important roles. :ooh:

You'd never give the keys to the Oval Office to a "reformed drunk", now would you! :=

That would be ridiculous, putting a "reformed drunk" in charge of the goddam planet! :}

BTW: This talk of so & so times the legal limit ... was this from a reporter? What's the legal limit in the country in question!?

jack red

10th Dec 2006, 08:24

This chap doesn't fit the alcoholic profile for mine. I reckon he's made a bad error of judgment for whatever reason and it has cost him his job. arcniz is spot on with his assessment of the situation. He should have the opportunity to work in the industry again and I'll bet he will learn from this regrettable experience. I just hope he hasn't access to a computer and is reading all this vitriol from his prison cell.

For goodness sake, leave the poor guy alone !:mad:

Barndweller

10th Dec 2006, 09:33

As question and point interest to all the guys and gals who have been supportive of re-habilitation of this individual (who would seem to have disregarded his professional responsibilities and carried out a criminal act).
How many of you would be arguing for tolerance, understanding, re-habilitiation and re-integration if this was a teacher at your kids school who had been downloading kiddieporn? Not so many of you i think yet all of the arguments you use could apply. (treatment / supervision etc)
Alcohol is so much a part of our culture and it's use so widely accepted that anyone who falls foul of it is invariably "a nice bloke who made a mistake".
I'm a professional Pilot who drinks and enjoys drinking Alcohol. I also know that it is my responsibility to ensure that it does not affect my flying. If it does then it is right and proper that i suffer the consequences (before anyone else does).
Society is already suffering hugely as a result of the behavior of people who are addicted to or abuse various substances. Individuals are still responsible for their actions, even if they are addicted to the point that they cannot control them,.
Stands back and waits for uproar.

ATC Watcher

10th Dec 2006, 09:52

Judging a fellow by what one read not really knowing all the facts is unfortunately common today. One would expect a bit of understanding from its own breed, but it turns out in this case that your colleagues are your worst enemies.
Those colleagues of course never ever drunk a glass of alcohol in their career less than 10 hours before reporting to duty and would immediately report to the authorities even their best friend if they seven suspected he had one too many while a work.
They of course have never suffered any serious problems in their life and can judge without a doubt that they would never resort to drinking alcohol to soften the burden when that happens.
Now does that make it all right to drink on duty then ? , of course not, but sending the guy in Jail and prevent him for pursuing a career ever after is neither the solution one would expect from some of his colleagues..

And yes, it is all about giving second chances. The whole life is based on second chances, I would not be here today if I had not been given second chances a some point , and probably with similar “ Ayatollahs” in charge , the Wright Brothers would have continued making bicycles.

Now, I am going to open my bottle of St Julien for Lunch. :E

Thylakoid

10th Dec 2006, 10:11

Maybe "alcoholics" cannot be reformed.

There are enough evidence from medical records indicating that the disease can be controlled. Yet, since it is caused by a particular "genetic wiring" of the brain, such individuals (alcoholics) will never be considered "cured."
Like diabetes and hypertension, alcoholism is a "controllable" disease.

Who'd want them in really important roles. :ooh:

There are a few individuals who managed to stop drinking and went on to live and work as "normal" people. Not all ex-drunks, obviously, would be able to take charge of anything important.

You'd never give the keys to the Oval Office to a "reformed drunk", now would you! :=

Well, Mr. Bush Junior is there, isn't he?
What about the keys given to the late Dick Nixon?

That would be ridiculous, putting a "reformed drunk" in charge of the goddam planet! :}

The oval office is not in control of the planet; it tries to, but without any effective success. :)

BTW: This talk of so & so times the legal limit ... was this from a reporter? What's the legal limit in the country in question!?

As per company policy and the countrie's laws, the legal limit is ZERO. Apparently, in the UK, there is a limit of some 20 micrograms per a certain amount of blood, as I was told.

b17heavy

10th Dec 2006, 10:16

Ignition Override

Singapore is actually a very nice place, oh and it is not part of the middle east. This seems to be a common misconception…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0AhvoxW9XI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0AhvoxW9XI)

Had many a good beer there.:ok:

Thylakoid

10th Dec 2006, 10:27

Now, I am going to open my bottle of St Julien for Lunch. :E[/quote]

Hope you are not going to fly :E

I agree with you, though. I've known the fellow in question for some fifteen years. I have flown with him many times and he was always a very meticulous, cautious, and dedicated professional.
Something went wrong along the line.

Jail will not teach him anything; it will only serve as humiliation and severe punishment. Losing his job and career was severe enough.

Thylakoid

10th Dec 2006, 10:37

You might be right regarding these numbers.

As a non-drinker, all these limits mean very little to me :confused:

Wiley

10th Dec 2006, 10:57

Judging a fellow by what one read not really knowing all the facts is unfortunately common today.Too true, ATC Watcher.

ATC Watcher

10th Dec 2006, 12:45

Now, I am going to open my bottle of St Julien for Lunch. :E

Hope you are not going to fly :E

[/QUOTE]

Not today no, my aircraft is on maintenance this week,;) but I might have . But I just said I was opening the bottle, : you see there is a whole range of possibilities between opening a bottle and emptying it on my own .
If I was going to fly later in the day, I would have limited my consumption to a quarter of a glass with my meal and shared the rest with my lunch company.
This is our tradition in the country I am originating from.
.
Back in the good old days where Air France was an airline operating airplanes driven by cables and rods and flown by a team of 3 , it was customary for the cockpit crew to have a similar half a glass of wine with their crew meals. During that period the company did not crash an aircraft every 2 years like it does now. In fact if you look your statistics up you will find that AF did not have a single crash in 20 years during that period.

I leave it to you to draw your own conclusions , but not too serious ones please..:)

LProuse

10th Dec 2006, 17:57

My name is Lyle Prouse and I was the infamous Northwest Airlines Captain back in March of '90 who was arrested on Northwest Flight 650 (FAR-MSP) for flying drunk, along with the copilot and second officer.

Subsequently, I was fired by NWA, stripped of my flight certificates, and lost my medical due to alcoholism. I became a national pariah, was sent to federal prison for 16 months, served 14, and went broke within 30 days of the arrest. Furthermore, the trial judge put sanctions on me to insure I'd never fly again due to my age (51 at the time).

I want to be clear about a number of things. First, I make no excuses, I accept complete responsibility, and I openly acknowledge that everything that happened to me was fair and appropriate. Period.

Having said that, let me turn to some of the comments offered by a number of pilots in this forum. Some of those comments indicate some knowledge and understanding of the subject of alcohol/alcoholism and some indicate ignorance bolstered by arrogance.

When I talk about alcoholism I separate the issues between the acts and behavior (and the consequences that flow from that) - and the disease itself.

Being an alcoholic does not relieve me of responsibility for what I do nor does it grant me any immunity or excuse anything. Anytime I commit an unlawful act, alcoholic or not, it's incumbent upon me to accept the consequences of that act.

It should be noted that while alcoholism is not an excuse for behavior it very clearly explains a lot of it in the case of the alcoholic. It might surprise some to know that since I got sober over 16 yrs ago I've never flown drunk or received a DUI... Nor have I done any of the shameful, disgraceful, offensive, and embarrassing things that drunks routinely do.

One of THE first steps of recovery demands acceptance of personal responsibility and being accountable. So the talking heads, Bill O'Reilly for one, who declare that the only reason for treating alcoholism as a disease is so those with it can escape responsibility, is absurd beyond words. Those ideas only come from non-alcoholics...in my experience.

I have been sober since the date of my arrest, over 16 years and some nine months now. I am active in recovery, speak all over the United States and Canada (for free, of course), have been involved with virtually every major airline in their alcohol programs. I am of Native American heritiage and I've spoken on reservations in the US and Canada, and at Native American sobriety conventions.

I served out my prison time, came out broke and disgraced, and eventually earned back each of the four licenses I needed, commencing with the private and doing it, quite literally, from the ground up...after the judge miraculously lifted the sanctions on me. I did it the same way I stay sober, one day at a time, one thing at a time, one step at a time, and one license at a time.

I'd never had a private license - I came out of the Marine Corps as a Vietnam vet and quickly acquired a Com'l ticket and inst rating after a quickie test...and was hired 3 weeks later by NWA (Aug '68). I had gone in as a barely 18 yr old private and I left 11 1/2 yrs later as a Captain and jet pilot with an excellent reputation.

Not quite four years after my arrest and imprisonment, the Pres/CEO of NWA, Mr. John Dasburg, personally reinstated me to full flight status at NWA. It was an act of personal courage on his part that the word "extraordinary" doesn't even begin to approach.

I retired honorably at age 60, in Sept '98, as a 747 captain, having done all I could to fully vindicate all those who had believed in me. Additionally, the tough Minnesota judge who tried and sent me to prison suggested, as I retired, that I apply for a presidential pardon and said he'd support it even tho he'd NEVER supported a petition for pardon in his 16 yrs on the bench. Two years later I rec'd a Pres Pardon - a HUGE, life altering event for a federal felon!

To one contributor who said alcoholism is a lifetime disease and implied we who are recovering are delicately balanced on the razor's edge and might relapse anytime, I say he is only partially correct. It is a lifetime disease, that's why it's called Alcohol-ISM and not Alcohol-WASM. But so is diabetes and a number of other chronic diseases. And, yes, some never make it, never recover, and never stay sober - and they die (both my parents took this disease to their graves).

But to discount the millions of us around the world who live good, productive, solid lives in recovery displays a shallow and ignorant way of thinking. And to say no alcoholic should ever be trusted in the cockpit because they might relapse is absurd. Anyone in the cockpit might keel over, have a stroke, heart attack, brain anueryism, or some other possible problem and it's nonsense thinking to make a blanket pronouncement and condemnation of everyone based on what "might" happen.

Many don't make it. But many don't survive cancer, heart disease, and other calamities of life. The airlines have THE most successful rate of alcoholism recovery among any group, virtually double the norm in the rest of our society. And they do a good job of weeding out those who will not or cannot get sober - and that's as it should be.

I'm well aware that there are those, still today, who think I should have been put against a wall and shot; and that I most certainly NEVER should have been allowed to fly again. Fortunately, I don't think that reflects most of the heart and soul of the American character who, traditionally, support and encourage the underdog and applaud comebacks.

Alcoholism is a treatable, recoverable disease. Today there are over 3500 recovering alcoholic pilots flying for airlines. One of the leading docs I know (who's worked in the aviation/alcoholism field for over 30 yrs) says, "When I get on the plane I glance in the cockpit. If it's a face I recognize, I breathe a sigh of relief. If it's one I don't...then I sit in the back and wonder."

To each his/her own. I doubt anything I've said here will change any minds and may only provoke further debate. My only purpose here is to speak the truth as I know it and do it quietly and clearly.

Being an alcoholic was something I first viewed as a disgraceful, shameful, stigmatic curse. It has evolved into the greatest thing that ever occurred to me because of what it has forced me to do. My kids won't have to watch me die a grim, lingering alcoholic death, as I had to with my parents. My life today is geared toward giving back more than I ever took, making amends where ever possible, and being constantly grateful for the joy of sobriety and the brightness of each day.

What I have expressed here today is not something unique to me. It is shared by virtually every recovering person I know. I just came home a few minutes ago from speaking in Denver last night. As is always the case, I met people who inspire me and make me glad I was forced into a program of recovery I NEVER would have willingly accepted when I was drinking.

Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse
Ex federal inmate 04478-041
Ret'd NWA Capt 086140
Marine Capt 086099

Chuck Ellsworth

10th Dec 2006, 18:04

With any addiction or habit comes the issue of personal responsibility.

I have been and am a pilot for over 54 years, with my decision to seek help to cure an addiction to alcohol came an even greater resposibility to ensure that should I ever decide to go back to drinking again I would never ever again fly an airplane.

To concrete this resolve I gave both my doctor and Transport Canada access to my medical records at Shick Shadel Hospital with the instructions that should I ever decide to drink alcohol again my aviation medical and license was to be cancelled...period.

It is all part of decision making and a debt I owe to the industry.

And I do not hide behind anonimity as I have nothing to hide.

I only post this in the hope someone out there may be able to make the right decision in their own life.

Chuck E

Bof

10th Dec 2006, 18:17

About 20 years ago, I was a FM with an LGW airline. We had a captain who was always "smelling of drink" and I had received many complaints from cabin staff. We could never get to the bottom of things until he was caught out on an overseas detachment by the FO who called me one night and told me the capt had been drinking heavily during the early evening and was now in bed, but what should he do? I explained that as he was the only other crew member there, if he still suspected the capt was under the influence in the morning, it was up to him to stop the flight even if he "went sick" himself.
In the event, the aircraft got airborne and flew the sector and I assumed all was well. The CP had been brought into the story however and grounded the capt on landing where he was breathalized and found to be well over the top.
The individual was dowgraded to F/O and the we placed him on a monthly monitoring regime by the company doctor. He agreed to this action, but within a couple of weeks requested to leave the company. Although we felt he was taking his problem away with him, we let him go. He joined another small airline and within six months had been fired for drinking on duty.
Sadly the pilot concerned died later, but my point is that one can take a horse to water..... but.... We were prepared to go an extra mile for the guy but in the end he was determined to keep drinking and there was only one outcome possible.

CAT3A

10th Dec 2006, 19:55

L Prouse

Amazing post, well done.

fantom

10th Dec 2006, 20:07

Goodness Lyle, that is a wonderful post.

b17heavy

10th Dec 2006, 20:32

Per mare, per terrum, simper fidelis. My hat off to you sir.

Chuck Ellsworth

10th Dec 2006, 20:55

Lyle:

You have my admiration.

Chuck E.

Flying Lawyer

10th Dec 2006, 22:12

When I read comments such as those by niknak, who sincerely hopes the pilot “serves the full sentance (sic)” and “never, ever flys (sic) again”, rigga who thinks making him serve "all his small sentence won't hurt him much more” and Saskatoon who thinks the pilot deserves “no compassion at all”, I feel reassured.

Reassured that, despite three decades in a career in which I’ve prosecuted and defended people who’ve been sent to prison, and sent people to prison myself for anything from a month to Life, I can still have compassion for people whose lives have fallen apart because of a single mistake.

Those who speak so lightly about decent hard-working people being sent to prison clearly have no comprehension of the enormous impact of a prison sentence upon them, particularly if it happens late in their lives.
I've sat in a cell with them just after they've been sentenced, doing my best to explain what to expect after they are carted off in handcuffs to prison. Even when they knew prison was inevitable, they are reeling from the shock because their nightmare has now become a reality.
I also know that, however dreadful they feel then, they are going to feel much worse when they wake the next morning and the terrible reality really sinks in.

How anyone can have no compassion for the pilot is beyond my comprehension, as is the hope that his career is finished for ever.
(Opinions will differ about whether sending someone like this pilot to prison serves any useful purpose, but that's for another discussion. )

The suggestion by some that the majority view here is simply professional pilots being loyal to a colleague is silly. I’m not a professional pilot, and nor FWIW am I a heavy drinker.

Interesting, impressive and very moving posts by Chuck Ellsworth and Lyle Prouse.
I salute them both.
Their contributions are far more thought-provoking than some of the taboid-style drivel in the sanctimonious posts.

FL

Blackcap

10th Dec 2006, 22:45

Lyle

Fantastic post, many congratulations on your achievements. My heart goes out to you - must have been a difficult few years. Have a great retirement!

jack red

10th Dec 2006, 23:25

Well done Lyle and I concur with the above posters about the fine quality of your post. I stated earlier I just hope he hasn't access to a computer and is reading all this vitriol from his prison cell.

Well I do hope now he has been reading this thread and in particular your post. :ok:

LProuse

10th Dec 2006, 23:43

Thank you, sir. Your description of what happens to a client immediately after sentencing is disturbingly accurate.

At my sentencing, the judge offered to let all three of us remain free pending appeals, since this was the first time this law had ever been applied and there were many complex legal issues. The other two opted to remain free. I told the judge I had been convicted and it was time for me to go into prison...because I had learned how to "live life on life's terms" as we said in treatment, and I refused to whistle in the dark.

I was terrified of walking in there but I recalled something I'd learned as a Marine, that "Courage is not the absence of fear; it's the ability to continue in the face of it."

No one who has ever walked into prison will ever again glimpse life or the world as he or she once did prior. When I speak from the podium I never talk about prison...because I think it's irrelevant to my recovery. But my recovery, the power of what I learned in each of the 12 steps, and the principles behind each one, greatly impacted how I handled prison.

The comments that follow are simply a narrative; they are NOT a plea for sympathy because I deserved none. I did what I did and I got what I got, and it was fair. However, as my judge said when he sentenced us, "The greatest sorrow is reserved for the wives and children, but I do not have the power to ease that."

The public at large, as you so eloquently describe, has no clue about the impact of being locked up in the midst of 24 hour insanity that seemingly has no end.

The smell of rain is different in there, the moon looks different at night, and the feel of a breeze on one's face is not the same as free air. I was accustomed to being free...and it was not easy for me. So I did it one day at a time...shorter when necessary...for 424 days.

There are two incredibly sick groups in prison and the sickest group goes home every night. It is a system that is so sick, twisted, and obscene that no one believes it and it's self-protected in that regard. It is a system designed to emotionally castrate and permanently scar all who enter. And it is usually successful.

No one can describe the feeling of having a wife and children come visit their convict husband and father, dressed in drab prison khakis, treated as a sub-human by the guards, and surrounded by the oppressing prison atmosphere.

I had been the standard bearer in my family for duty, honor, country. I had been the one who espoused character, honesty, and integrity as my kids grew up. But in the disgrace I brought upon myself it all seemed hollow and for naught.

In the long term I was able to experience something one of my meditation books said. "My father didn't tell me how to live," it said, "He lived and let me watch him do it."

I never expected to have to be the example that was forced my way. But hopefully, what my children witnessed as I made the long climb back out of the blackest valley of disgrace and despair to the beauty of the sunlit mountain top, may have more impact on them than all the words I spoke in all the years preceding. Walking the walk will always take precedence over talking the talk. And it was a long walk indeed. A million miles, one step at a time.

There are those posting here who cavalierly dismiss and declare, with a wave of their hand and a smug smile, how frivolous prison seems to them. But no one who has been there, or who has had a son or daughter there, will do that.

Or they will utter what I consider the most inane comment of all: "Well...they should have thought of that before they did it." Think about it a moment. If people did actually did that there would never be any crime. What I did, and what the other pilots did who've gotten in trouble with alcohol, was not premediated; it was not intentional. We didn't sit down and weigh the pros and cons. Not one of us said, "I think, given the wonderful life and career I have, that I'll go out and destroy it tonight, end up in the headlines, and go to prison." It's a stupidly ridiculous comment that most of us simply nod affirmatively to and never give any further thought. It may sound good but it flies in the face of human nature.

I will not take time nor space to share with you the experience I had with the attorney representing me. He was as impacted by this whole experience as I was and our relationship became a unique one as we went through this together. He worked for me for several years afterwards, refusing to take a cent (which I didn't have but would have paid over time) - and his response was always the same - "I believe in you and I'm staying to the end, wherever that is." And he did.

So many others also did.

Two weeks after I entered prison my wife came in and told me nine of my fellow pilots had self assessed themselves and were making our house payments. Two of them I didn't even know. And they did this for nearly four years in spite of four concerted attempts on my part to get them to stop.

There are many good people in this world...and then there are the grandiose, the smug, the superior, and the ignorant. To those who somehow feel they've lived a life free of fault I simply suggest they may have set their standards far too low.

Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse

Brian Abraham

11th Dec 2006, 00:50

Lyle, there are just too many words that are appro to your post - honest, eloquent, thoughtful, human, understanding, courage, determination, enlightment, educational. Rather than infamous, might I suggest an award winning tale of achievement. At the end of the day I stand somewhat in awe of your achievement and can say nothing but BRAVO ZULU. Also to Chuck congratulations - BRAVO ZULU.
Blue Skies to you both,
Brian
PS Lyle how come you use MY sign off. ;)

Wiley

11th Dec 2006, 06:55

Lyle, I'd like to think that there are a few who've posted on this thread who might, after reading your two excellent posts, reconsider the attitude they've adopted over this matter.

I'd also like to meet and shake the hand of the man from North West who gave you the second chance. Sadly, I don't think there are too many individuals out there in airline senior management today who practise that brand of management.

Crosswind Limits

11th Dec 2006, 07:38

Lyle,

Your posts are amongst the finest I have ever read, moving and thought provoking.

Thank you and enjoy a long and happy retirement Sir!

Another Number

11th Dec 2006, 07:50

Lyle, Thank you. That does indeed give one perspective. BTW: For those interested, a somewhat extended version of Lyle's story is contained at the AA site (amongst the personal stories - "Grounded"). {I trust there is no problem pointing this out for those who wish to read it?}

chuks

11th Dec 2006, 08:06

There's quite a range of responses here, from the knee-jerk 'ban him from flying for life' to some very moving accounts of recovery from alcoholism.

I have seen this from both sides, having to work with alcoholics (who usually went unreported and untreated until they could be quietly got rid of, in the old-fashioned way) and also being perched on the rim of the glass just about to slip on a wet spot and fall in. I was lucky to have moved way back from that but I can still think, 'There but for the grace of God go I,' when I read about someone being arrested in this way. People who come across all pompous and self-righteous probably are either deluding themselves or else lack imagination and compassion.

It really is pretty weird the way we have come to accept taking small doses of a neurotoxin ('intoxicated' simply means 'poisoned' in everyday speech, after all) to ease our way in society but it's a given just like smoking, and we have to deal with it. Some of us manage better than others.

Aviation is very strange in the way that it has a very boozy sub-culture (when I think about where I met this or that fellow pilot that was usually in a bar, of course) and now very strict surveillance of drinkers. You could call that 'schizophrenic' in layman's terms.

Perhaps it would be useful for us to be more willing to intervene before it gets to the stage of a fellow pilot being arrested and smeared all over the tabloids but that 'denial' stage of alcoholism usually gets in the way of that. I don't have a ready answer to this problem.

Heliport

11th Dec 2006, 08:45

The first pilot to be arrested at LHR (and subsequently jailed) for an alcohol-related offence under the new UK laws allowed the full facts of his case to be reported on PPRuNe in the hope that others might benefit from his experience.
It's an interesting thread (if you ignore the distraction of one poster making the same point over and over again in post after post): LHR Breathtest (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=136060)

Rigga's claim that this is 'just the latest of a continuing series of "misdemeanors" that are not given a high enough profile' is absurd.
Every arrest on suspicion has been reported here, whether or not the pilot was later prosecuted.
We even had a report of that nonsense at Manchester where two police constables decided to breath-tested both pilots after a passenger told police the pilots must be drunk because the aircraft had to do a go-around. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Yes, believe it or not, it actually happened: Pilots breathalysed after go-around (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=160845)

His lack of knowledge may partly be explained because (as he says) he's not a pilot but, given his comments such as "a continuing series" and "just another one", it may also be because the facts don't fit his preconceived notions and prejudices. It doesn't seem to occur to him that not many incidents are reported here because there aren't many incidents, despite what he and tabloid journos would like to believe.

The 'smoking hole' and 'hundreds may have died' stuff often trotted out when this topic comes up is not borne out by the stats.

We also had a very useful discussion when the new law was introduced (again, if you ignore distracting posts) : Alcohol and Flying: The new law (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=113035)

.

Doors to Automatic

11th Dec 2006, 09:30

This chap has lost his job, his house and indeed, his career. It is clear that turning up in such a state ahead of his flight is not something he did for the hell of it so I am at a loss to understand precisely what sending him to prison is going to achieve - especially as the prisons are supposedly so full that dangerous criminals are persistently given derisory sentences and let out early.

bear11

11th Dec 2006, 09:59

Doors - possibly it's because it's against the law? As a deterrent, maybe? It's safe to say that if you're going to turn up over the limit and try to fly, the Gulf region is not the cleverest place in the world to do it in. Not to pick on the Gulf, though - you've seen from other posts it isn't legal in the US of A either.

LProuse

11th Dec 2006, 10:16

Hi Brian,

I took the "Blue skies" sign off from a friend of mine, Frank Frey, about 12 years ago. Frank was a kind and gentle man, a former Marine Captain and pilot who was dismissed from the service due to his drinking. He was unable to pursue flying as a living and worked as a fry cook for Waffle House.

Frank was one of us who never managed to get sober and he killed himself after many struggles to recover. He was a tormented soul and he and I spent many hours together, talking about recovery, spending time together, and attending meetings.

Once, when Frank visited me in prison, he smuggled a Mrs. Winner's chicken and biscuit sandwich into the visiting room in his sock. After the visiting room filled up I gulped it down, so fast I barely had time to taste it. It was an act of kindness I never forgot.

Some would view Frank as a hopeless drunk. I saw him otherwise because I understand the disease of alcoholism, and I shed tears at the news of his suicide. Interesting, isn't it, how we view victims of cancer or Alzheimer's and have great sympathy and compassion for them...while we see alcoholics and have nothing but disgust and contempt.

In my sixteen years sober I have lost 36 friends to this disease. Some I have known better than others, but all have been personal friends. Early in my sobriety I was angry when these things took place, considering their loss of life as a needless and unecessary waste. I had always felt that way about my parents' deaths.

As time went on and I understood more, my attitude changed. As I viewed my sobriety more as a gift than an accomplishment, the level of my compassion grew. So today when I attend a funeral of someone who didn't make it, I stand over the casket, look down, and quietly think, "Thank you, my friend, for your sacrifice. Thank you for showing me what will happen if I do what you did. Thank you for allowing me to live another day sober." I am able to convert a negative into a positive if my attitude is what it should be.

And I never lose sight of the fact that the person in the coffin could be me, as well as the drunk sleeping in the doorway or in an alley. As has been said earlier, "There but for the grace of God..."

Blue skies,
Lyle

V1uhoh

11th Dec 2006, 10:43

Lyle,

Your posts are amongst the finest I have ever read, moving and thought provoking.

Thank you and enjoy a long and happy retirement Sir!

X2
As a graduate of UND up in good old Grand Forks. ND in 1989 i remember this story in the news. Wonderful to hear your "side" of things Lyle and what you have endured up to this point.
You're winning. :ok:
Enjoy retirement!

What became of the other flight crew? Did they go through the same sentencing as you? treatment etc....re certification?

LProuse

11th Dec 2006, 11:20

Dear Doors,

None of us would ever recover if we didn't have consequences to face. The compulsion to drink is powerful and something must be there to help overcome it. Sometimes it's the loss of family, job, self-respect, or blistering headlines and a prison sentence. We must "reach our bottom," where ever that may be. And sometimes the bottom is death.

If the price of our drinking (sometimes refered to as "the high price of low living") didn't somehow become more than we can afford, in whatever currency is important to us, we would continue - period. So consequences are important and vital.

The concept of "enabling" by friends and family simply means that they continually rescue someone who's drinking and allow them to avoid needed consequences. Bailing them out of jail, lying to employers when they miss work, or any one of a million other examples, only adds to the problem and prolongs it. Although usually motivated by love and concern for the individual, it is, in fact, the cruelest thing one can do and eventually results in literally "loving someone to death."

Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse

This chap has lost his job, his house and indeed, his career. It is clear that turning up in such a state ahead of his flight is not something he did for the hell of it so I am at a loss to understand precisely what sending him to prison is going to achieve - especially as the prisons are supposedly so full that dangerous criminals are persistently given derisory sentences and let out early.

Rainboe

11th Dec 2006, 11:26

Lyle- respect man! You have conquered that demon, and nobody is under any misapprehension it has been, and still is, easy. You are a glowing example that restoration is possible and justified. I don't think we should take pilot-jealous, idiotic posts like niknak's seriously. A more fatuous, spiteful posting we haven't seen here for some time. Good luck in your lifelong rehabilitation- the trust and respect shown to you is justified!

I wonder whether we will ever have violent criminals and murderers punished in the same way niknak wants this pilot punished for life?

Taildragger67

11th Dec 2006, 11:38

Chuck and Lyle - well done mates, on all counts.

If he's technically competent, then shouldn't we revert to the rule which says that you're not allowed to fly if you're under the influence?

Some have alluded to the driving analogy. I don't know of too many places which ban alcoholics per se from driving, but pretty well all ban anyone from driving if they're under the influence.

If he's sober, and can control the aircraft, then what's the problem? If he falls off the wagon and turns up blotto, then just like anyone else, he can't fly that trip.

QED and consistent application of the rules.

Maybe this guy's mistake was just to not call in sick.

chuks

11th Dec 2006, 12:14

I have seen guys out there reeking of booze but totally upright and able to fly very well indeed; terminal alcoholics running on booze far better than trying to cope without! You really think someone like that would consider calling in sick... for what? He's coping just fine, thank you very much!

I once had this very man 'on the carpet.' Of course mine was a very small carpet (acting Deputy Chief Pilot), I was ex-military but a former enlisted man not once an Officer and a Gentleman and I was taken to be just over-reacting to such facts as that, yes, he kept a bottle in his room.

I was told that was only 'to entertain guests.' I had to point out that I sometimes entertained guests too but that didn't entail keeping a bottle in my room! Well, nothing worked until the hammer had to come down, when the guy ended up having to go all the way down, no job, no licence, before he could work his way back up to living without booze. That is often how it is.

When you look at it in the light of experiences like that one it's much better to treat drinking as a disease (whether you choose to believe that or not) like any other that is treatable and often controllable. Otherwise you have your closet drinker putting people at risk until he's caught. It is much safer to get the problem out in the open, I think.

Big airlines are not really all that charitable towards their employees, are they? I think they take the approach they do, treating alcoholism as a disease, for very sound safety reasons.

FL460

11th Dec 2006, 12:27

Lyle
Check your PM's

LProuse

11th Dec 2006, 12:33

First, no alcoholic is "reformed." They're recover(ed), or recovering, as I prefer.

"Reformed" might be appropriate for someone who's lived a life of crime, but alcoholics are not bad people who need to become good. They're sick and need to become well. And that's what recovery is about.

Yes, I WOULD give the keys to the Oval office to someone you refer to as "a reformed drunk." Why? Because I know what it takes to recover...and to live a life of recovery.

Not only that but when I need a doctor I go to one I know who's in recovery. I do the same if I need an attorney. And I feel much more comfortable in a business deal if I know that person is recovering. I'll discuss why shortly.

You are shot-through with tons of misinformation, as much of your phraseology certainly confirms.

Recovery from alcoholism is not the same as with other diseases. A cancer victim, for example, simply wants the cancer removed and a return to life as he or she once knew it. For an alcoholic, the alcohol is NOT the problem; it's the solution and merely a symptom of the real problem, which is the manner in which he or she responds to life itself. How we see things, how we react to things, what our belief system is, or has become, and how it plays into our reactions - THAT is the problem, buried deep within us and often covered by many false fronts and facades. The bottom line is that we cannot merely excise alcohol from our lives and achieve our goal. By so doing we only address a symptom and not the root cause. And most fail when they attempt to do it that way.

One of the prevailing attitudes of society, and certainly yourself, is that a recovering alcoholic will always be "less than," damaged goods, never as good as others or as he or she should have been.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I know millionaires, CEO's of a couple of Fortune 500 companies, priests, ministers, a world-famous heart surgeon (among tons of other doctors), prominent attorneys, judges, congressmen, sports superstars, and a whole plethora of others - all solidly recovering. I also know the homeless, the spurned, and the hopeless who are struggling.

Not long ago a man came up to me after I'd spoken somewhere. Years earlier he'd been living under a bridge, a hopeless drunk. He smiled as he shook my hand and told me he'd just finished his PhD. I get to witness these things all the time, everywhere I go.

An alcoholic who recovers must change his or her entire life; they must go above and beyond anything previous in order to stay sober and live happily. I am infinitely better at anything I do today, or have EVER done, due to my sobriety. Whether it's being a husband and father, flying an airplane, or just trying to be a better human being.

I watch recovering people die from horrific diseases and do so with a smile on their face and a whispered sense of gratitude for sobriety clear up to the end. I watch them deal with the loss of children and never turn back to the bottle. I watch them confront every imaginable calamity that life offers and find refuge in their recovery and their fellow recovering alcoholics who never leave their side. Recovering alcoholics are, in my view, the toughest, most tempered and resilient - and inspirational - people I know. I've been sober a long while, spoken all over the US and Canada (and once in Spain), and I know virtually thousands and thousands of recovering alcoholics. And what I've reported here is not unusual in the least.

So, yes, I would turn the keys over to anyone in ANY position of importance...if I knew they were recovering.

I hope you open and widen your horizons, learn more about all this, and become enlightened about this subject.

Blue skies,
Lyle

Maybe "alcoholics" cannot be reformed.

Who'd want them in really important roles. :ooh:

You'd never give the keys to the Oval Office to a "reformed drunk", now would you! :=

That would be ridiculous, putting a "reformed drunk" in charge of the goddam planet! :}

BTW: This talk of so & so times the legal limit ... was this from a reporter? What's the legal limit in the country in question!?

chuks

11th Dec 2006, 13:22

I am not right up to speed on this one, and I don't even like the guy, but isn't part of George W. Bush's personal narrative that he was a bit of a booze-hound before Jesus H. Christ got him straightened out? It is certainly so that he was once arrested for DWI (Driving While Intoxicated). I remember that because there was a fuss about Bush family influence having the charge dropped from the records or something.

Now I believe it is so that he doesn't drink at all but he sure does seem to feature in a lot of photos of him praying. Well, whatever works!

Depending on how you wish to look at that you could certainly argue that there is indeed a former alcoholic in the Oval Office. Any narrative like this one about a politician should be taken with a grain of salt, of course. From the Bush side it could be that religion solved a big problem. From the anti-Bush side it could be that there was made out to be a big problem when there really wasn't. The truth could lie somewhere in between these two. You really cannot judge such things.

A lot of us who are very 'down' on 'problem drinkers' might well have a problem ourselves that we just don't want to think about. I used to read those boring articles about how many 'units' of alcohol one was allowed per week and be amused to note that was a bit less than what I often got through in a night, when I was by no means the champion toper! At least I wasn't all tanked up at 1 a.m. before an early start but in strict terms I was a 'binge drinker' for sure. So? Most of us living the life in West Africa were; if you weren't you had trouble fitting in.

For other reasons I was told that I could have one glass of white wine per day but that more than that would not be a good idea. I just laughed in my doctor's face at that one. I told him straight up that 'one glass of white wine per day' was PATHETIC! 'Doctor,' I said, 'you call that drinking?! Pah! Drinking is three or four pints of beer, at a minimum! Your offer is unacceptable. I QUIT!' That beat looking like a poofter!

boredcounter

11th Dec 2006, 13:25

Mind if I PM you as a non flyer? Groundie in dispatch

ManfredvonRichthofen

11th Dec 2006, 14:09

I think one of the earlier posts was by someone who claims to have known the pilot in question for some years. This post stated that the pilot is not an alcoholic.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the situation, what happened surely does not automatically make this man an "alcoholic".

Binoculars

11th Dec 2006, 14:28

I am an extremely infrequent visitor to this forum, but when I read the news article involved I dropped in to hear the views of Ppruners in regard to pilots and alcohol, because anybody involved closely with the industry knows there is a very close connection between alcohol and aviation. Does anybody want to deny that?

I simply want to say that the first two posts by Lyle Prouse were among the finest posts I have read anywhere on Pprune, and they don't apply just to pilots. God speed, Lyle. :ok:

ManfredvonRichthofen

11th Dec 2006, 14:34

anybody involved closely with the industry knows there is a very close connection between alcohol and aviation. Does anybody want to deny that?
:ok:

if you are saying there is any more of a connection between alcohol and those working in aviation as opposed to banking, law, journalism etc etc
then yes, I'd deny it

Huck

11th Dec 2006, 15:11

Capt. Lyle- my father, Gene G., was hired around the same time as you and spent 31 years at NWA. He told me many good things about you and was very happy when you got back on the line. He lives in BHM now.

I am humbled by your posts here. I lost a grandfather and almost lost my best friend to this disease. I pray you keep up your valuable work for many years to come!

Steve G.
Fedex MD11 f/o

flyingbug

11th Dec 2006, 16:06

Lyle,

your posts (particularly, for me, the first two) have been outstanding.
Thank you for taking the time to write so eloquently about alchoholism and its effects on you, your family and your career.
All the very best for your retirement,

Flyingbug

chuks

11th Dec 2006, 16:54

Binoculars, that is, when he states that there's a close connection between alcohol and aviation.

It starts in the military, I think, which is where a lot of my generation got their start in aviation. You have a lot of young guys, bored out of their skulls most of the time and scared half to death a little bit of the rest, with money to burn, time on their hands and not a lot to do but drink (given that most young men choose not to curl up with a good book, nowadays).

A macho, heavy-drinking sort of culture naturally comes from that and follows one along through the rest of the aviation career. I don't think your average banker knows how to perform 'The Dance of the Flaming *rseholes' or how to drink an 'Afterburner' but plenty of pilots do!

Most of us tend to grow up and move away a little bit from the heavy drinking but more than a few do become alcoholics. I am not aware of any statistics for this, and I agree that plenty of businessmen also drink to excess, but my best guess is that aviation has more than its share of heavy drinkers. It is pretty rare to meet a tee-total pilot or engineer, certainly.

jumbo1

11th Dec 2006, 17:10

Lyle,
What an unbeleivable post. Thank you for having the courage to post what you did. I think it should be an eye-opener for everyone with the lock him up and throw away the keys attitude.
Pilots or not - how many of you have woken up the morning after feeling a bit green around the gills and thought - should I drive to work today?...
It's easy to point fingers guys but there for the grace of god........
Take it easy out there fellas and keep the blue side up.
Jumbo

Chuck Ellsworth

11th Dec 2006, 17:45

Alcoholism does not affect everyone in the same way.

During my treatment at Shick Shadel Hospital we were told that about 10% of the population carry a gene that makes them more suseptable to becoming an alcoholic than others.

During their research into the why of alcholism they did many tests, one of which was using a breed of monkey that would not drink alcohol. However once injected with the spinal fluid of an alcoholic 100% of these monkeys drank themselves to death.

Further experimentation with these monkeys determined that regardless of the fact that an alcoholic had been dry for decades injecting the monkeys with the spinal fluid from a non drinking alcholic produced the same result, the monkeys drank themselves to death.

I am part native American Indian and we carry this gene that makes us far more prone to alcholism than say someone from Europe who have had alcohol as part of their life style for centuries.

So based on the findings of Shick Shadel and my reaction to the drug that was administered to me at the hospital I belive their findings to be true.

My reaction to the drug was dramatic and almost killed me, they changed the amount once they found out that I am part North American Indian.

Alcoholism is far from a benign affliction and we may be well advised not to be to judgemental of someone who has this disease.

Chuck E.

Barndweller

11th Dec 2006, 19:47

Lyle.

PM for you Sir.

Flying Lawyer

11th Dec 2006, 21:38

Manfred ”if (Binoculars is) saying there is any more of a connection between alcohol and those working in aviation as opposed to banking, law, journalism etc etc, then yes, I'd deny it”
Based entirely on unscientific observation, I agree with Manfred. I have many friends who are professional pilots and lawyers, quite a few who are bankers, and others in a wide variety of professions and jobs; I’ve never seen any sign that pilots drink more often or more heavily than those in other professions.
A study of alcoholism in the professions in the mid 80s found that it was the serious illness most likely to affect professionals in their first 15 years after qualifying. I don't know, but I doubt if that’s changed.

Chuks says that a ‘macho, heavy-drinking’ culture comes from the military. I don’t doubt he’s right but, in Britain, that culture is widespread, especially amongst young people and regardless of socio-economic background. There is a widespread British culture of people going out for the evening with the intention of drinking to excess – and measuring the success of the night before by how badly they feel the next day. They then boast about how much they drank/how drunk they were, saying they had a ‘fantastic night’ and were ‘slaughtered’ etc.
Quite a few British Ppruners list drinking (described in various forms) under ‘Interests’ in their Profile. And that’s by no means limited to those who are (or claim to be) professional pilots.

Binge drinking appears to be an integral part of the social life of many British youngsters, not just young males. UK women under 25 drink 2-3 times as much as young women in France and Italy. Teenage bingers are also more likely to take the habit into their 20s. Thankfully, as Chucks says, most people tend to grow up, but some don’t and, sadly, more than a few of those become alcoholics.

Generalisations are always risky, but my impression is that generalisations by country reveal more than generalisations by profession or job.

FL

J.O.

11th Dec 2006, 22:47

Capt. Prouse:

You are indeed an inspiration. I only wish that every professional pilot could have the opportunity to hear your words, whether they're drinkers or not.

I recently had the privelege of attending a course here in Canada where we learned the values and benefits of a Pilot Assistance Program. I admit that prior to attending the course, I looked at addiction as more of a character flaw than as a disease that affects the very core of the human brain. At the end of the course, my feelings on the matter were irreversibly changed for the better. I attribute much of that change to the pilots in the course who shared their stories of addiction. Their first-hand accounts of hitting bottom; being confronted with an intervention and eventually getting the help they needed to get better, affected me deeply. Short of witnessing the birth of my children, hearing their personal stories was probably the most profound experience of my life. All of those pilots raised your name as an example of someone they look up to. Having read your responses here, I can certainly see why.

Any manager who would elect to dismiss an employee who may be an alcoholic is treading on very thin ice, particularly if they're doing business in a place that has laws that ban discrimination against people with a medical condition. Yes, a pilot who arrives at work under the influence must be removed from duty pending a medical evaluation. It would be foolhardy to do anything less. If the medical evaluation concludes that they are suffering from an addiction, then their medical must be held in suspension until they can prove that they are medically fit to return to duty. Transport Canada has endorsed the concept of Pilot Assistance and the process that pilots must go through to get their medical back. As you said, the success rate of programs such as this is quite remarkable. Although I know you would humbly deny it, I believe that you are owed some credit for that.

I will close by saying that we all must understand that a pilot who is labeled as an alcoholic will suffer from a great deal of shame and guilt for having been found out. Pilots pride themselves on being seen as calm and rational individuals who are capable of handling a great deal of stress. The need to medicate (i.e. drink or take drugs) to feel better is tough for them to admit to themselves, never mind to their loved ones and colleagues. They must be shown that they are not alone, and that there are many colleagues out there who, like yourself, have lived life "on the edge" and with time and some help, have learned how to live "in the middle" again.

Many thanks to you and all those who give so much of their time to help others.

Jeff

Brian Abraham

11th Dec 2006, 23:16

Mods - would I be out of place suggesting this be considered for sticky status. Change the title to alcoholism or something equally appropriate. Lyle is such a powerful writer and has such a real story to tell. I must admit to a measure of vision impairment reading his story.
Blue Skies,
Brian

armada

11th Dec 2006, 23:54

About Mr. Lyle Prouse's amazing story - notice that as soon as he started treating HIMSELF with the respect that he deserved, that other people followed suit and did the same. And when he treated himself badly, the system and other people did likewise.

As soon as he took responsibility and accepted the prison term others saw this strength and rallied around him. He did not lose faith in himself. People don't like a lost cause, however they will rally around a good cause/person no matter how weak it is at the time. That old paradox, we often must become weak and helpless in order to become strong, to lose everything for a chance to start again. The house is often so rotten that is must be stripped down to its foundation, and rebuilt again.

Another Number

12th Dec 2006, 01:00

Dear Lyle,

I was aware when posting the comment, that it may not been seen for what it was ... tongue-in-cheek ironic.

Perhaps not the best idea in an international forum, and on such a subject. :O

My intention was actually counter to what might be initially read into such a post... as is the case with irony.

My intention was actually to respond to those so quick to write off anyone who's experienced the results of alcoholism, by pointing out that society has allowed someone with such experience to obtain the "top job".

Maybe I should have been more obvious, but that's not in my character! :)

My own position is far from that which may have been assumed ... ;)

First, no alcoholic is "reformed." They're recover(ed), or recovering, as I prefer.

"Reformed" might be appropriate for someone who's lived a life of crime, but alcoholics are not bad people who need to become good. They're sick and need to become well. And that's what recovery is about.

Yes, I WOULD give the keys to the Oval office to someone you refer to as "a reformed drunk." Why? Because I know what it takes to recover...and to live a life of recovery.

Not only that but when I need a doctor I go to one I know who's in recovery. I do the same if I need an attorney. And I feel much more comfortable in a business deal if I know that person is recovering. I'll discuss why shortly.

You are shot-through with tons of misinformation, as much of your phraseology certainly confirms.

Recovery from alcoholism is not the same as with other diseases. A cancer victim, for example, simply wants the cancer removed and a return to life as he or she once knew it. For an alcoholic, the alcohol is NOT the problem; it's the solution and merely a symptom of the real problem, which is the manner in which he or she responds to life itself. How we see things, how we react to things, what our belief system is, or has become, and how it plays into our reactions - THAT is the problem, buried deep within us and often covered by many false fronts and facades. The bottom line is that we cannot merely excise alcohol from our lives and achieve our goal. By so doing we only address a symptom and not the root cause. And most fail when they attempt to do it that way.

One of the prevailing attitudes of society, and certainly yourself, is that a recovering alcoholic will always be "less than," damaged goods, never as good as others or as he or she should have been.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I know millionaires, CEO's of a couple of Fortune 500 companies, priests, ministers, a world-famous heart surgeon (among tons of other doctors), prominent attorneys, judges, congressmen, sports superstars, and a whole plethora of others - all solidly recovering. I also know the homeless, the spurned, and the hopeless who are struggling.

Not long ago a man came up to me after I'd spoken somewhere. Years earlier he'd been living under a bridge, a hopeless drunk. He smiled as he shook my hand and told me he'd just finished his PhD. I get to witness these things all the time, everywhere I go.

An alcoholic who recovers must change his or her entire life; they must go above and beyond anything previous in order to stay sober and live happily. I am infinitely better at anything I do today, or have EVER done, due to my sobriety. Whether it's being a husband and father, flying an airplane, or just trying to be a better human being.

I watch recovering people die from horrific diseases and do so with a smile on their face and a whispered sense of gratitude for sobriety clear up to the end. I watch them deal with the loss of children and never turn back to the bottle. I watch them confront every imaginable calamity that life offers and find refuge in their recovery and their fellow recovering alcoholics who never leave their side. Recovering alcoholics are, in my view, the toughest, most tempered and resilient - and inspirational - people I know. I've been sober a long while, spoken all over the US and Canada (and once in Spain), and I know virtually thousands and thousands of recovering alcoholics. And what I've reported here is not unusual in the least.

So, yes, I would turn the keys over to anyone in ANY position of importance...if I knew they were recovering.

I hope you open and widen your horizons, learn more about all this, and become enlightened about this subject.

Blue skies,
Lyle

Left Coaster

12th Dec 2006, 02:09

I was going to skip the thread as it was full of "holier than thou" attitudes about this issue, but I am really glad I didn't. Thanks Lyle, Chuck and others who have reminded me that running through life with our eyes wide shut serves no great purpose. Thanks for helping me to remember what real human nature is about. I can't think of anything else to say except...Thanks
:\
Best wishes to you all this holiday season, and safe skies in the future.

expatula

12th Dec 2006, 05:04

Dear Lyle,

I am at a loss of words to descibe how i felt after reading your post. But to sum it all up, your post has been the most humane, most compelling and most touching post i have ever read all thorughout this forum.

What i would like to say here, is that no matter what our circumstances in life are, still i think that everybody deserves a second chance. Life on this earth is always a constant struggle, so for those who are in the right path, well and good, but to those who have stumbled, get up, fight and live on.

Happy retirement, Capt Lyle, and may you live long and continue to inspire more people.

Wishing you bright and blue skies ahead. Merry Christmas!

Expat

Binoculars

12th Dec 2006, 10:40

if you are saying there is any more of a connection between alcohol and those working in aviation as opposed to banking, law, journalism etc etc
then yes, I'd deny it

And you would have every right to, Baron! It was a poorly worded generalisation, as befits the 1.28am time of posting. I suppose the crucial point from your post is "any more of a connection". No, I don't think there is any more, perhaps my point should be that I don't think there is any less.

It's also possible that my geographical location has influenced my views. I could, but won't, make a very impressive list of incidents I have myself witnessed in my thirty two years involvement in the game as it is played where legends were made, and almost all of them involved alcohol at some stage. I suspect those who have flown in Papua New Guinea could tell you three times as many similar stories. Anyone can be as sanctimonious as you like, and perhaps pilots from other countries are miraculously free of this trait; I can only call it as I see it. And let me hasten to add that I am including controllers equally in my generalisation.

The important points remain those pointed out by Mr Prouse. No man is an island, and few are those who can throw stones within their glass houses. Personal insults mean nothing to me, so save your breath.

Edited to add that last comment was not aimed at anybody who has posted in this forum, rather a couple of trolls in JetBlast.

olster

12th Dec 2006, 13:37

Lyle,pretty much the most articulate,moving and coherent post I've ever read on pprune.Well done to you sir for striking the balance between admitting culpability and finding the strength to move forward.Also,well done to those who stuck by you-compassion can go a long way.Have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Tigs2

12th Dec 2006, 19:59

Lyle
please check PMs

Doors to Automatic

12th Dec 2006, 22:02

Dear Doors,

None of us would ever recover if we didn't have consequences to face....... Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse

Lyle,

This is true, and believe me I am no wooly liberal, however a situation where you not only lose your job, but also your house and then to know that you will never fly again, is one hell of a consequence.

Reading your posts, it is very clear what sort of a person you are. Reading some of the other posts it seems clear that the pilot in question is an equally sincere person. What you both had in common was an illness, not any criminal intent.

Now compare that with the sorts of feral gutter-trash which New Labour have encouraged to infest our cities. These gangs beat people up for a laugh, police do nothing and god help anyone who gets in a ruck with them - it is likely the police will prosecute the victims - as they are firmly on the side of the scum.

Just last week one such vile gang were finally hauled up before the courts, having murdered a family man and deprived his son of a father for life. The harshest sentence was 15 months (yes months!!!!!)

Now tell me this country has its priorities right!!?

Rgds, Doors.

LProuse

12th Dec 2006, 23:36

The tongue in cheek entirely went past me, and I apologize to you.

The comments, and reference to "reformed drunks," was very much what I've encountered from many in the public sector for years now. So...I reacted.

Please accept my apology.

Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse

Dear Lyle,

I was aware when posting the comment, that it may not been seen for what it was ... tongue-in-cheek ironic.

Perhaps not the best idea in an international forum, and on such a subject. :O

My intention was actually counter to what might be initially read into such a post... as is the case with irony.

My intention was actually to respond to those so quick to write off anyone who's experienced the results of alcoholism, by pointing out that society has allowed someone with such experience to obtain the "top job".

Maybe I should have been more obvious, but that's not in my character! :)

My own position is far from that which may have been assumed ... ;)

LProuse

12th Dec 2006, 23:57

Thank you for your kindness, Jeff,

I have but one brief comment her and it only applies to one small portion of your comments. I only want to clarify a common misunderstanding about employers and the American Disabilities Act.

There is a common and sometimes encouraged misconception that the American Disabilities Act (ADA) allows alcoholics and addicts to retain their jobs due to their "medical condtion." That is FALSE.

I've been in a number of workshops dealing with ADA and it does NOT protect alchoholics and addicts from being terminated for their behavior. Nor should it.

It's designed to keep employers from discriminating against people like me who are recovering from alcoholism. They (theoretically, anyway) cannot pull up my hospitalization records for treatment years ago and then deny me a job based on that. But they are under NO obligation to hire me (or rehire me) if I'm untreated, still drinking (or drugging), and engaging in egregious behavior.

I was fired for flying drunk; not for being an alcoholic. I committed an act that was both egregious and unlawful, and the ADA law, very properly, did not apply to my situation.

I don't know what the Canadian version of the ADA is (if you have one), but ours gets a lot of misinformation put out about it.

I applaud you for your openmindedness and willingness to learn about alcoholism/addiction. It's a difficult task for non-recovering folks.

Again, thank you for your very nice words.

Blue skies,
Lyle

Capt. Prouse:

You are indeed an inspiration. I only wish that every professional pilot could have the opportunity to hear your words, whether they're drinkers or not.

I recently had the privelege of attending a course here in Canada where we learned the values and benefits of a Pilot Assistance Program. I admit that prior to attending the course, I looked at addiction as more of a character flaw than as a disease that affects the very core of the human brain. At the end of the course, my feelings on the matter were irreversibly changed for the better. I attribute much of that change to the pilots in the course who shared their stories of addiction. Their first-hand accounts of hitting bottom; being confronted with an intervention and eventually getting the help they needed to get better, affected me deeply. Short of witnessing the birth of my children, hearing their personal stories was probably the most profound experience of my life. All of those pilots raised your name as an example of someone they look up to. Having read your responses here, I can certainly see why.

Any manager who would elect to dismiss an employee who may be an alcoholic is treading on very thin ice, particularly if they're doing business in a place that has laws that ban discrimination against people with a medical condition. Yes, a pilot who arrives at work under the influence must be removed from duty pending a medical evaluation. It would be foolhardy to do anything less. If the medical evaluation concludes that they are suffering from an addiction, then their medical must be held in suspension until they can prove that they are medically fit to return to duty. Transport Canada has endorsed the concept of Pilot Assistance and the process that pilots must go through to get their medical back. As you said, the success rate of programs such as this is quite remarkable. Although I know you would humbly deny it, I believe that you are owed some credit for that.

I will close by saying that we all must understand that a pilot who is labeled as an alcoholic will suffer from a great deal of shame and guilt for having been found out. Pilots pride themselves on being seen as calm and rational individuals who are capable of handling a great deal of stress. The need to medicate (i.e. drink or take drugs) to feel better is tough for them to admit to themselves, never mind to their loved ones and colleagues. They must be shown that they are not alone, and that there are many colleagues out there who, like yourself, have lived life "on the edge" and with time and some help, have learned how to live "in the middle" again.

Many thanks to you and all those who give so much of their time to help others.

Jeff

LProuse

13th Dec 2006, 00:44

Folks,

This will be my final post. I've said what I needed to say and it's time to go.

To all of you who have been so very kind with your words and comments, I say "thank you." They are deeply appreciated and, frankly, they were unexpected.

I hope some may have gained a little understanding about a most difficult and complex disease - alcoholism. Sometimes called "the disease of a thousand faces."

I considered a brief explanation of the disease itself, the three axes it affects (I think that's the plural of axis, isn't it?), and some of the science behind all this. The problem is that there isn't any way to do it "briefly," so I'll leave it where it is.

The only one who really has to really understand it is me, since I'm an alcoholic and will either live WITH this disease...or die FROM it.

In the final analysis, giving up alcohol (and any other mood altering substance) becomes a small price to pay for the life I live today. I'm asked to do one small thing...refrain from ingesting something that's become toxic to me. Other than that I can go anywhere and do anything on the face of the planet that others can do. I can climb mountains, fly airplanes, drive race cars, hunt and fish with my son, watch sunrises and sunsets - and laugh and hug my wife and my grandkids.

In the telling of my story, I neglected to mention that the beautiful 20 year old girl who pinned my gold wings and USMC second lieutnant bars on me is still with me. When the devastation blew our lives apart she never flinched...she just continued to believe in me.

I entered treatment the day after my arrest...on my 27th wedding anniversary. The 20 yr old girl is now 63 and more beautiful than ever - and she is truly...the wind beneath my wings. She was there to pin the wings on her cadet in 1963...she was there when I lost them in the midst of disgrace and dishonor... and she was there to pin them back on for the final time.

I am blessed to have lived such a wonderful life and to have had such a great journey. I have received the most of something I know the least about - grace.

Blue skies, all, and goodbye...

Lyle Prouse

Another Number

13th Dec 2006, 02:30

Lyle,

Apology not required but accepted.

Thank you for your insightful contributions to us all here.

I'm without a doubt that there have been many winners from your battles - your inspirational and motivational remarks/texts/speeches are very powerful.

Good luck in all you attempt, and achieve.

Shore Guy

13th Dec 2006, 03:54

I’ve been a “PPruner” for some time now, and visit other aviation forums.

This is by far the most profound thread on any forum I have witnessed.

Made more so due to dealing with a friend and a relative (brother) in the midst of this demon.

Capt. Prouse, I salute you. Unfortunately, few who have “hit bottom” have recovered with family, friends, and career restored/intact. You are fortunate.

I have forwarded your posts to my brother…..in hope of hopes that he sees inspiration in your story…..and sees the light……..before he winds up dead or in jail.

Tigs2

13th Dec 2006, 19:26

Lyle
Thank you. I think there are many of us who really did not envy you for the dreadful process you went through. However, after reading your last post i am left feeling completely envious of what you now have. How i wish i could look forward to that. Maybe the experience you went through will prove to have been to an incredible advantage. Good luck, enjoy your retirement, live to a long ripe old age and love and savor every moment of what you now have. It is something that is only a pipe dream to many people, and something which you and your family have been through a great deal of pain to achieve. Yours Humbly.
Tigs2

I really believe because of the issues raised in this thread about a problem that does exist in aviation, that it should become a sticky somewhere. I for one would like to read parts of it every now and again, and i know there are many who never even visit 'Rumours and News'.

Millski

14th Dec 2006, 04:39

Lyle, I would luv to shake your hand.
Regards Dave :ok:

Wiley

14th Dec 2006, 06:28

Wow! From what would have to have been about the most unpromising start imaginable, this thread has grown into one of the best examples of what I think Danny might have had in mind all those years ago when he stared this site.

Danny, could I endorse Brian Abraham’s suggestion that this thread be re-named and placed in an easy to find place on the Home Page (similar to the now sadly missed Humour Page)? It would be a tragedy for it to disappear onto page ‘n’ of the archives.

Thanks almost entirely to the truly inspiring posts from Lyle Prouse, (but also some others), this thread has moved on well beyond the unfortunate incident that sparked it off, and I know that JD, if was able to see ALL of what’s been written here, would be glad something so positive has come of it despite his - and perhaps even moreso, his wife’s – current quite horrible situation.

3 Holer

14th Dec 2006, 07:19

Danny, could I endorse Brian Abraham’s suggestion that this thread be re-named and placed in an easy to find place on the Home Page (similar to the now sadly missed Humour Page)? It would be a tragedy for it to disappear onto page ‘n’ of the archives.

I second the motion Wiley.

MamaPut

14th Dec 2006, 08:10

In common, I'm sure, with many others, I was tempted to skip this thread and when I read some of the early posts I almost gave up reading further. Thank goodness I didn't as it has been the most inspiring thread I have ever seen on PPRuNe, thanks almost entirely to Lyle Prouse. Lyle, your profound observations and inspiring story have truly touched my heart and made a great impression on me.

In my childhood I had an uncle who was a leading surgeon, a brilliant man who suffered from a terrible flaw - he was an alchoholic who never admitted his problem. He often operated when under the influence but, thankfully for his patients, he never made a life-threatening error. Sadly he made a huge life-threatening error with his own life. Over the years I watched as my aunt divorced him, my cousin cut him out of her life (to the extent that even today, more than 30 years after his death she will not talk about him), he spent more time in hospital and eventually died in his mid-fifties, of cirrhosis of the liver.

Many years later, I almost went the same way. My parents died, my marriage ended and I started drinking far too much for my own good. I knew it, but I had nobody like Lyle to give me good counselling and get me to admit that I had a problem. A couple of times, after a heavy night, I called in sick and once I turned up for work in an unfit state to fly. Thankfully my aircraft was unserviceable and I was sent home. I didn't seem to be able to do anything about it, except drink more, feel sorry for myself and start crying tears of self-pity. My saving grace was a wonderful woman who took me as I was, put up with my drinking and gradually through her kindness and understanding helped me to realise that I was sick - in the mind as much as the body. I never quite (I think) graduated to having full-blown alchoholic, but I definitely had a drink problem which affected my personal and professional life. My employers at the time would probably have fired me had they known. I now drink purely socially, just an occasional glass of wine and never spirits, but I know how easy it can be for drink to get the upper hand if your personal problems get to the point where they overwhelm you and there's nobody to talk to about it. Luckily, I now work for an enlightened employer and 2 of my fellow pilots are receiving company support for treatment of their alchoholism.

Thank you Lyle, for your inspirational words and your compassion and thanks also to Chuck Ellsworth and FL, who have put many of the arrogant and pompous to shame.

Danny, I third the motion to make this thread 'sticky'

Wiley

14th Dec 2006, 09:17

If there's anybody out there interested in reading about the subject in detail without getting stuck into heavy text books, I'd highly recommend "Matthew Flinders' Cat" by Bryce Courtenay.

A truly excellent read which might make you look rather differently at those deadbeat blokes selling "The Big Issue" next time you pass one on the city street.

Charley B

14th Dec 2006, 13:23

Lyle,
A truly remarkable story.

May you enjoy a long and happy retirement.

God Bless you for what you have done/are doing for others.

This was the most moving posting that I have ever read on the Forum.

Happy Christmas and New Year to You

Charley B

bubbers44

14th Dec 2006, 14:53

Lyle:

You have reached so many people by your posts here on this subject that lurk but don't post. Thank you for helping us understand what you have learned and sharing it with so many people. Everybody heard about Fargo but few have heard your success story.

Foss

14th Dec 2006, 15:36

Lyle
You are a gifted writer, Your posts were inspiring and touching.
And the same for Chuk.
At my office, there's one recovering, I hate that phrase, one who's a complete drunk, and one who can't drink anymore because of health reasons.
It's a common problem.
Fos

Capt.KAOS

14th Dec 2006, 16:15

Amazing story....

I can climb mountains, fly airplanes, drive race carsBeware: drive race cars is intoxicating and I've heard so is flying airplanes.. ;)

Chuk, enjoyed your posts, as always...

barit1

14th Dec 2006, 16:53

J.O.

14th Dec 2006, 17:36

Purely scientific inquiry - please don't read any ulterior motive here:

Is there any research showing the practical effects of, say, relatively low level of intoxication on flying skills, versus effect on driving skills? Put another way, what reaction time is essential for competent piloting, versus competent driving?

Aviation has rightly called for "zero tolerance" in this matter, but various jurisdictions have different limits for drivers. I'm interested in whether this makes practical sense.

The vast majority of aviation authorities specify that flight "under the influence" is not permitted. This means that any level of alcohol above zero is not legally permitted, so the question is essentially moot. As to the affect on a pilot's skills, physiological factors such as the metabolic rate of alcohol depletion are not a constant, making it difficult to give any meaningful answer.

Flying Lawyer

14th Dec 2006, 18:13

The vast majority of aviation authorities specify that flight "under the influence" is not permitted. This means that any level of alcohol above zero is not legally permitted .....

"any level of alcohol above zero" does not = "under the influence".

In the UK, until the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003, the relevant law was contained in the Air Navigation Order which provided that no member of an aircraft’s crew shall be under the influence of drink or drugs to such an extent as to impair his/her capacity to so act. It did not set a blood alcohol limit (nor did it require pilots to submit to a breath-test.)

The Act introduced two separate offences:

Being Unfit for Duty (Section 92)
Performing an 'aviation function', or carrying out an activity that is 'ancillary to an aviation function', at a time when your ability to perform the function is impaired because of drink or drugs.

Alcohol Exceeding the Prescribed Limit (Section 93)
Performing 'an aviation function', or carrying out an activity that is 'ancillary to an aviation function', at a time when the proportion of alcohol in your breath, blood or urine exceeds the 'prescribed limit.'
Prescribed Limits:
Blood: 20 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres.
Urine: 27 milligrammes / 100 millilitres.
Breath: 9 microgrammes / 100 millilitres.
These limits apply regardless of whether the pilot's ability (to fly etc) is impaired.

So, a pilot may be guilty of the 'excess alcohol' offence (s. 93) even if he/she is not remotely 'under the influence'.
Of course, the headlines would still say the pilot was 'drunk'.
'Pilot 4 milligrammes over the limit' doesn't make a good story.

Tudor Owen

atiuta

14th Dec 2006, 23:46

This thread has developed into an eloquent and informative source on an illness that many misunderstood, including myself.

When JD's situation evolved, the majority of pilots reacted in a similar way, sympathy for his situation but acknowledgement that a guilty verdict would result in imprisonment. Many of us knew that individually we had probably been close to or in a similar situation over our flying careers. My personal observation of individual’s behaviour on layovers is that our profession has moved significantly from where it was, say 15+ years ago, to now with respect to probable occurrences of FUI (flying under the influence!).

Lyle has identified/highlighted two separate issues; flying drunk (which JD is guilty of) and alcoholism (which JD may or may not suffer from).

My understanding is that most airlines (including JD's former employee) will support an individual seeking help prior to any criminal event taking place. After any such event, dismissal appears to be the only recourse available to the employer.

Should a single case of FUI classify an individual as an alcoholic?

It appears that the alcoholic stands a better chance of rehabilitation into the work force after recognition and treatment. Unfortunately I don't think that JD's previous employer would entertain that prospect and there is certainly no legislation to cover it.

The non-alcoholic who 'flys drunk', becomes cast in stone.

In many respects, this individual is worse off than someone who is identified as an alcoholic. There is an invisible line out there for the non-alcoholic/alcoholic alike that is too easy to overstep, the line is neither straight nor can it be consistently applied. Through others misfortune/experiences raised in this forum, my personal approach to enjoying a beer or wine in the evening will continue to be cautious and more enlightened.

Captain Calamity

15th Dec 2006, 02:26

Whilst I am not a professional pilot, I do work in a profession which has problems with drink and drug abuse (I am a family doctor). Sadly I have witnessed this many times both in my colleagues and in my patients. If you care to look for it there is a wealth of published evidence that confirms my observations to be widespread, not just amongst doctors, but amongst many professional groups, including pilots.

It seems that two separate entities can be identified here; flying whilst drunk, and being an alcohol addict.

The second entity appears to have been well covered in the posts above, with at least some posters accepting that addiction to alcohol at some point in one's career does not necessarily mean a lifelong inablility to fly or take up any position of responsibility.

The 'lock 'em up and throw away the key' attitude of some towards the first entity saddens me a little though, and makes me wonder what kind of society we live in that demands such vengeance.

Please don't misunderstand me, putting lives at risk by turning up to work under the influence (surgeon, pilot, bus driver, whatever) is indefensible, and should be punished according to the full extent of whatever law applies to the profession.

What next though? Should the pilot (or doctor, whatever) automatically be denied any return to their profession? For a pilot who is too old to change career this may well mean loss of their home or spouse, as well as having their self-esteem demolished at a time when perhaps support is needed to overcome the problem that led to the drinking in the first place. I have a patient will quite possibly spend the rest of his life in his bedsit drinking special brew after similar happened to him. I doubt he will ever return to any form of work or independence. A little harsh for someone who made just one out of character slip up don't you think?

Let me tell you what happens in medicine; after being punished the doctor is assessed. A decision is made essentially as to whether they have made an error of judgement which is unlikely to be repeated (i.e. they are able to return to work safely, perhaps with retraining and/or supervision) or alternatively whether it is likely that the error of judgement is likely to recur (in which case they will not be allowed to return to the profession).

Happily, the medical profession spends a good deal of time and effort to help identify and treat alcoholism before a problem that compromises safety occurs. In those cases where a problem does occur, help with either rehabilitation of the doctor, or with establishing a new career elsewhere is provided.

I would take little pride in a profession where we looked upon a fallen colleague without such mercy.

Chuck Ellsworth

15th Dec 2006, 02:50

" I would take little pride in a profession where we looked upon a fallen colleague without such mercy."

Fortunately for aviation Captain Calamity our colleauges with normal human compassion and the ability to see things in a clear light far out number those who are either ignorant or are possibly afraid due to self doubt and fear.

Chuck E.

atiuta

15th Dec 2006, 10:43

I don't think my original post was taken out of context. Just to clarify, I agree completely with the last two posts.

In the aviation profession, the typical airline manager treats an alcohol related dismissal decision as a professional error - that is a rule (FUI) has been broken and dismissal is seen as the only recourse. The cause, however, is medical related with all kinds of nuances that are best assessed by the medical profession.

I can understand that there will be a greater understanding in the medical profession about alcohol related problems in their work place because alcoholism/alcohol errors of judgement are physiological and therefore, part of their profession. A pilot making an error of judgement more closely related to his profession e.g. weather, fuel, technical etc, will have more understanding of the cause from his superiors who are pilots themselves.

We haven't been trained to understand the physiological aspects of alcohol related issues other than the "rule" aspect of thou shall not fly whilst under the influence. The manager has come from the same breeding and will apply the same philosophy in his adjudication "without mercy". In the latest case the airlines domicile, culture, society development and legislation all played a part in job retention and no one was in any doubt as to what the outcome would be. The case was heard in the UK but the job was lost in Dubai.

The alcoholic pilot in some more developed societies appears to stand a chance of being cured and reinstated. The pilot that makes an error of judgement will most likely lose his entire career. Is it fair? Not in my mind, but some areas of our profession are far less developed than others. The example given of what occurred in NWA identifies that there is an equitable solution for alcoholic/non-alcoholic. Sadly it will be a long time before that level of understanding is adopted by society as a whole.

What would I do if an individuals career was (hypothetically) in my hands, and thankfully it's not? Extensive medical assessment to ascertain the degree of dependency and risk, review previous records. Retain if the risk was low enough, dismiss if it wasn't. Remove from flying until all assessments had been completed. There would be a demotion to F/O for a period until risk was reassessed or restriction of upgrade in the case of an F/O. Most importantly, I would ask that the individual assist the company in some form of peer support. Naturally if the individual wasn't willing to support such a program with complete conviction, that would form part of the retention assessment as well.

Alternatively if a return to flying was not an option, conduct the same assessment and offer an option to assist in a peer support program for a period of time. After the agreed period had elapsed, allow the individual to retire with benefits. Self esteem is supported, company gets a return on it's investment and the individual and his family avoids a sentence beyond what the courts have applied.

My main query for debate remains the inconsistencies of alcohol related errors/illness in aviation.

late developer

16th Dec 2006, 11:53

I am troubled by this thread.

jeff748

16th Dec 2006, 11:58

Why are you troubled by this thread, late developer? Please tell us.

late developer

16th Dec 2006, 14:20

Jeff I just posted a longish reply but foolishly lost it by not copying it before the dreaded login screen that appears after a timeout.

I am now doubting the attractiveness of my own views to an extent, so I won't try to rephrase it all just now.

I think it might go with the territory that many pilots could be of the opinion: "No-one judges me as critically as I judge myself".

One of the things I am troubled about is what message the thread now gives, both to young pilots with important social lives, and to older pilots too who have learned to manage 'normal' lives including use of some alcohol and some other drugs alongside their voluntary roles as 'commanders of aircraft' or as 'leaders in adventure'.

EI-MPE

16th Dec 2006, 15:17

I see no confused or negative message from this thread. I view the thread only as hopeful and positive.
It has been said many times that alcoholics have great difficulty in coming to admit that they may have a problem with alcohol - either to themselves or to anybody else. The source of this difficulty (of admitting that they may have a problem) is often associated with an overwhelming fear of how the admission will be received, whom to share this information with, the consequences of the admission and what exactly does the future hold for the afflicted person post admission. Think of it for a moment - it's a lot for an ill person to consider in parallel to coping with all the struggles (financial, family, physical health, constant consealment etc) that go with an active untreated distructive disease. Ultimately a full and unconditional admission is essential in order for the problem to be sucessfully addressed and this full admission will require the sufferer to face up to and deal with some very painful issues.
An important matter has been raised here and because it is being debated in a balanced, compassionate and considered manner (for the most part) it may motivate a person who suspects or knwos they have a problem to make that vital step and seek help.....instead of proceeding into the cockpit undetected while under the influence.

late developer

16th Dec 2006, 15:37

EI-MPE

16th Dec 2006, 16:00

SAFE and soft landings are always preferred.

J.O.

16th Dec 2006, 21:06

Sounds like you may be extolling the virtues of a promise of a soft landing for the few, EI. I only wish it were so simple. How about the message to the many who on one day (or two, then three ... ) will have a bad day on the flightdeck with a hangover, or maybe just a little bit of performance lag?

Or have I got the many and the few mixed up?

Sounds like random breath-testing might be part of a solution.

I appreciate your concern, and I apologize if I may be misunderstanding your meaning, but I do not believe that anyone who has really read and absorbed the message in this thread will see us as advocating that an understanding of the problems of alcoholism at the management level will serve as permission to enter the flight deck with a hangover (or under the influence) in the knowledge that a "soft landing" will result if they have a performance lag (or worse). It has been pretty universally stated that any intent to fly in such a state is worthy of immediate suspension of one's flying priveleges, with reinstatement only after management is satisfied that there won't be a repeat performance.

Personally, I would have no problem with random breath testing, but it would be a rather expensive waste of resources, IMHO. There is simply not enough evidence to suggest an endemic problem among pilots which could justify the cost. The vast majority of pilots arrive at work in a state which would not result in a positive breath test. Are there exceptions? Yes, without a doubt. I admit to having stepped over the line a time or two in the past. Not any more, I can assure you. There is a far more effective and less expensive prevention method is available. It starts with education so that pilots gain a true appreciation of the hidden effects of alcohol on cognitive ability. Such effects do not require a significant level of alcohol saturation to become prevalent and we all need to appreciate that when we're on the way to work. Like understanding that busting weather minima can put our careers (or our lives) in jeopardy, it's pretty hard to justify having alcohol in the bloodstream at work once you know the consequences.

Flying Lawyer

16th Dec 2006, 22:53

late developer One of the things I am troubled about is what message the thread now gives .....What message has it given you as a PPL?

How about the message to the many who on one day (or two, then three ... ) will have a bad day on the flightdeck with a hangover, or maybe just a little bit of performance lag? The many?
What's your basis for that assertion?

Sounds like random breath-testing might be part of a solution.Solution to what?
Are you suggesting there's a flight safety problem needing such a solution?

Tigs2

17th Dec 2006, 09:27

Late Developer
I am sure you have used the term "I am troubled by this thread" on other threads. You should stop feeling so troubled. If you do feel troubled then leave the thread without comment and then maybe you wont feel so troubled, and then the rest of us wont feel troubled about you being troubled.:ok:

stator vane

17th Dec 2006, 10:30

firstly i am not troubled, though at times, in trouble.
nor am i troubled that others might be troubled.

i are a peealot my self and have been known to drink from time to time.

personally, i would be willing to forgive and forget another pilot for making the mistake under consideration here. in fact i have flown with some pilots who would be dangerous if they did give up drinking or smoking completely.

but on the other hand, knowing what i do about the view of others, i would not be a bit surprized if i were kicked off the pitch if i were to make the mistake myself and really would not raise much ruckus. we know the hardliners are there in positions of authority and should not be surprized when the axe falls on us as a result of our lapse into stupidity. but nonetheless, personally, if i were in one of those positions of authority, i would be all for possible rehabilitation. (that's a big word).

back into the darkness....

The Real Slim Shady

17th Dec 2006, 11:04

Tudor wrote:
Being Unfit for Duty (Section 92)
Performing an 'aviation function', or carrying out an activity that is 'ancillary to an aviation function', at a time when your ability to perform the function is impaired because of drink or drugs.
What would be considered an 'aviation function' ? Apart from flying the airplane or acting as cabin crew or as ATC or the engineer who Ramp checks the jet, does it extend to the dispatcher or the guy in Ops who produces the flight plan and Met? Is the refuelling guy performing an 'aviation function'? Is the marshaller or the guy responsible for switching on the guidance system?
Is the driver who drives the catering truck / baggage truck into the aircraft going to be breath tested from date X onwards?
Are the check in staff / ticket desk sales staff performing 'an ancillary to aviation function'? Is the guy who drives the bus from the car park to the terminal doing the same?
I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but where is the line drawn? One could argue that the Duty Manager at the Airport who has a glass of wine over a business lunch whilst discussing renting shop space to a retailer, or consortium of retailers, falls under this catch all definition.

chuks

17th Dec 2006, 16:21

but whether there is enough of a problem in aviation to warrant that is dubious.

The statistics for the numbers tested versus the very few found to be positive for alcohol or other drugs seems to show that aviation does not have a large problem with this. In any case, drug testing is here to stay, along with having to take off your shoes for some renta-cop if that is what he wants you to do in the name of fighting terrorism. It is just an unpleasant fact of life.

I think we are better off with having alcoholism up for open discussion, compared to the way it used to be when it was just another closeted activity, known about but not spoken about except as a subject for gossip.

Even if some of us are stuck with old-fashioned attitudes, seeing an alcoholic as a morally weak person, just as we might view all homosexuals as commie faggots and women as biologically unfit for aviation, well, times have changed. We all need to get 'on message' insofar as possible with the new way of doing business. Just as hand-flying and individual decision-making have given way to the use of the autopilot and the other crewmembers because of a general consensus, when each of us has had to adapt to that, we also have to shift from other ways of doing business that were once the norm. Otherwise you might as well retreat to some corner of a aviation museum to sit there burbling away about iron men in wooden airplanes to anyone who would bother to listen. That can be a very tough thing to manage, especially if you have something not quite right in your own equilibrium.

I don't think any reasonable person would read what has been written here and take that as an invitation to develop a drinking problem AND hope for a trouble-free aviation career. It can still be the kiss of death, just not automatically so. Yes, it is troubling that such problems as alcoholism exist in aviation but I don't think it should be troubling that that is open for discussion, particularly when we get a first-hand account of how one can make it back from being an alcoholic to being an airline pilot.

hobie

17th Dec 2006, 20:20

Something worries me after reading a report on the case by Martin Wainwright of the Guardian Dec. 9th 2006 ......

Surely someone going on duty with the Guy must have realized something was very wrong and been in a position to stop it developing ................... :confused:

A drunken airline pilot who tried to fly a packed plane to Dubai when he was seven times over the alcohol limit was sent to jail yesterday.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, 51, was sentenced to four months by a judge who told him he had brought an unblemished 25-year career to a stupid and ignominious end.

The Australian pilot for Emirates had been on such a bender, Isleworth crown court in London heard, that his drink level sent monitors through the ceiling, even though he claimed to have observed the ban on pilots taking alcohol within 12 hours of a flight. He was arrested after stumbling around during a routine search at Heathrow, making incoherent jokes about "not blowing up my plane" with his breath smelling strongly of drink.

Douglas Adams, prosecuting, said that tests found 134 micrograms of alcohol per 100 ml of blood, compared with the allowed limit of 20 micrograms for a pilot. He was arrested minutes before the flight was due to leave, stranding hundreds of passengers.
Judge Usha Karu told him that his behaviour during the search had been extraordinary. While waiting for security staff he drank water and ate a whole packet of chewing gum. She said: "Your face was red, and the security guards could smell alcohol on you."
"You also stumbled as you took your shoes off for the security gate and again as you passed through the metal detector, hitting the side and activating the alarm." The behaviour belied defence claims that xxxxxxxxxx did not realise the state he was in. He pleaded guilty to preparing to fly while over the alcohol limit.
Judge Karu accepted that he was suffering from stress and fatigue and that the debacle had lost him his job and his home in Dubai. But she told him, before he was taken from the dock after a brief glance at his wife in the public gallery, that an immediate jail sentence was unavoidable. "The courts take a very dim view of passengers who get drunk on an aircraft," she said. "It is much worse if it is the pilot, who has a high level of duty of care to those he would have been looking after."

Airbubba

17th Dec 2006, 21:03

Even if some of us are stuck with old-fashioned attitudes, seeing an alcoholic as a morally weak person, just as we might view all homosexuals as commie faggots and women as biologically unfit for aviation, well, times have changed.

Yep, even browsing porn sites at work may become a protected disability under the Americans with Disabilities Act:

Saturday, December 16, 2006

IBM aims to end ex-worker’s suit

Fired vet: Trauma led to sex chat at work

A 2004 lawsuit brought by a former East Fishkill IBM employee against the company was back in the news this week.

James Pacenza was fired after IBM found him in a sex chat room while at work. They said he was behaving inappropriately at work. But the Vietnam veteran filed a lawsuit saying he had an Internet addiction because of his combat experiences.

‘‘In his legal action against IBM, James Pacenza admits that he spent time in chat rooms during work hours, but claims his behavior is the result of an addiction and that IBM should have offered him counseling instead of firing him,’’ Information Week reported. ‘‘Employees with much more severe psychological problems, in the form of drug or alcohol problems ... are allowed treatment programs’ at IBM, Pacenza argues in his lawsuit.’’

‘‘... In his suit, Pacenza says his use of Internet chat rooms is a form of ’self medication’ he uses to treat post-traumatic stress disorder suffered as a result of combat experience in Vietnam...

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/WorkplaceInternetAbuse.aspx

...But cases like Pacenza's, which involve Internet misuse, may no longer be quite so simple, thanks to a growing debate over whether Internet abuse is a legitimate addiction, akin to alcoholism. Attorneys say recognition by a court—whether in this or some future litigation—that Internet abuse is an uncontrollable addiction, and not just a bad habit, could redefine the condition as a psychological impairment worthy of protection under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA).

That in turn would have far-reaching ramifications for how companies deal with workplace Internet use and abuse. For starters, businesses could be compelled to allow medical leave, provide counseling to, or make other accommodations for employees who can't control Internet use, says Brian East, co-chair of the disability rights committee of the National Employment Lawyers' Assn. East says recognizing Internet abuse as an addiction would make it more difficult for employers to fire employees who have a problem. "Assuming it is recognized as an impairment…it is analyzed the same way as alcoholism," says East...

http://www.businessweek.com/print/technology/content/dec2006/tc20061214_422859.htm

I wish Lyle all the best in retirement, too bad the other two crewmembers were not able to retire as 747 captains at NWA.

Flying Lawyer

17th Dec 2006, 22:59

hobie
Surely someone going on duty with the Guy must have realized something was very wrong ………. Not necessarily. Bear in mind that the reading was (almost) 7 times the limit for pilots - not 7 times the limit for drivers, with which most people are more familar. People who drink a lot wouldn't necessarily show any abnormal signs at that level.

It’s always wise to be cautious about press reports of court hearings. Understandably, journalists select the parts most likely to make an interesting story, and some are extremely selective. In this instance, as is often the case, there is virtually nothing about what was said by defence counsel.
As for the particular report you cite, I tend to be rather cautious when a journalist uses language such as “his drink level sent monitors through the ceiling.” :rolleyes:

The report quotes the prosecution allegations contained in the statements of prosecution witnesses – the security men – which may or may not be true, and may or may not be grossly exaggerated. The pilot was charged with and pleaded guilty to excess alcohol, so the allegations made by the security guards weren’t tested in cross-examination.
Just because someone pleads guilty to being over the limit, it does not mean that he/she agrees with every allegation made by every prosecution witness.

I thought part of a (different) report I read was rather interesting. The judge said: "When your luggage was searched and some items were rejected ... you made the irrational comment 'I would not blow up my own plane' …..”
There are many who wouldn’t consider such a statement to be even remotely “irrational” - although many who are more familiar with the industry might think it very risky to irritate security guards by saying it.
Maybe the pilot now dearly wishes he hadn't?

Real Slim Shady

The people you mention are not covered by the Act. The 'line is drawn' in Section 94:(a) acting as a pilot of an aircraft during flight,(b) acting as flight navigator of an aircraft during flight(c) acting as flight engineer of an aircraft during flight,(d) acting as flight radio-telephony operator of an aircraft during flight,(e) acting as a member of the cabin crew of an aircraft during flight(f) attending the flight deck of an aircraft during flight to give or supervise training, to administer a test, to observe a period of practice or to monitor or record the gaining of experience,(g) acting as an air traffic controller in pursuance of a licence granted under or by virtue of an enactment (other than a licence granted to a student), and(h) acting as a licensed aircraft maintenance engineer if he issues a document relating to the maintenance, condition or use of an aircraft or equipment ……………………. or, he carries out or supervises work on an aircraft or equipment with a view to, or in connection with, the issue by him of a such a document.An activity is treated as ancillary to an aviation function if it is undertaken by a person who has reported for a period of duty in respect of the function ………… or who in accordance with the terms of an employment or undertaking holds himself ready to perform an aviation function if called upon.

Tudor Owen

rmiller774

18th Dec 2006, 04:18

I think that I read in one of those moving earlier posts by LProuse that there are over 3500 recovering alcoholic pilots flying commercial passenger planes today. I need to go back in this thread to look for that figure again. Such a number would astound me. It is my understanding that not every recovering alcoholic is able to stay sober and such a policy troubles me. As a passenger who has flown for over 20 years without knowing of this practice I would feel reassured if random breath-tests were allowed.

chuks

18th Dec 2006, 08:12

One requirement for holding an AOC (Air Operator's Certificate) in many parts of the world, or for bidding on an aviation contract for many customers, is having a drug-testing program in place.

When you sign a contract of employment it is usual that you agree to submit to random drug-testing. If you refuse such a test then you shall be fired without any right of appeal. Well, I suppose you could try an appeal but I don't think you would get very far with it.

As far as the States goes I definitely remember reading somewhere the number of tests given, in the thousands, and the number of people found to be positive for drugs, which was single digits. I might be wrong about that but it was not so that drug-testing had uncovered a great, undiscovered number of pilots who were abusing alcohol and other drugs. To suggest that the small number of high-profile cases is just 'the tip of the iceberg' would seem to be unfounded.

Most of us in aviation are reasonable adults who understand that we put everything at risk if we indulge in drug abuse. There are an unfortunate few who are addicts to one drug or another, just as these people are found in the general population. Then there are those who are simply irresponsible, even though most professional pilots have been selected to exclude this misbehaviour.

What can I say, except that aviation is just another activity involving fallible human beings? If someone reading this really feels that more needs to be done, well, there are all sorts of politicians ready and willing to get behind any sort of aviation safety proposals going. Of course it is so that as a commercial activity there is always a reasoned judgment about the cost of safety measures versus the savings from accident prevention.

You could assume that every pilot is some sort of potential drug fiend and put him in quarantine for 24 hours before allowing him to fly, if you were just willing to pay the costs of that. Of course then we should assume that every passenger is a potential terrorist, so that one could only travel in irons with a heavy dose of Thorazine and two guards. Then we need two guards for each of the guards, since they cannot be fully trusted either, making six guards per passenger. The final safety measure should be a dog in the cockpit, trained to bite the pilot if he touches anything.

hobie

18th Dec 2006, 09:54

Flying Lawyer ..... many thanks for some very valid comments as always ....

Bearing in mind the guy was 7 times the legal flying limit some 12 hours after he stopped drinking (his words) I can't help thinking there were warning signs that could have been spotted by those around him ......

who was he with during his drinking session ..... who did he have breakfast with ..... who did he ride into the airport with ..... who did he pre-flight with .....

My own guess is this Pilot is not an Alchoholic ...... this was an isolated incident that could have been avoided ....

The Real Slim Shady

18th Dec 2006, 10:24

Tudor

Thanks for the explanation.

Heliport

18th Dec 2006, 14:43

rmiller74 As a passenger who has flown for over 20 years without knowing of this practice I would feel reassured if random breath-tests were allowed.
Doesn't the fact that you've flown for 20 years and are still here to write about it make you feel reassured?

If you need more reassurance, there are some interesting statistics in the link below.
They relate to the Australian aviation industry over a 31 year period, but I have no reason to think the worldwide stats would be much different.

CLICK LINK (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=256203)

niknak

18th Dec 2006, 14:48

Having started this thread with what some insensitive comments I admire the frank posts by those who fly and have been directly affected by alcohol.
I have a very close family member who, had his profession been avaition, would have undoubtedly made it to the top of the tree, as it was, his professional talents lay elsewhere and he became an authority in his particular field. He was a very clever man, he made advances in his field which were beyond imagination, he also managed to cover up the fact to most people, that he was an alcoholic but he wasn't clever enough to hide from me or let it kill him.

Perhaps my asertion that the Emirates pilot should never fly again was over the top, but I dont regret the fact that he'll probably never find another job with a major airline.

I just hope that he accepts any help available to him, gets on with his life elsewhere and recognises the enormity of what could have happened.

Flying Lawyer

18th Dec 2006, 15:11

niknak
but I dont regret the fact that he'll probably never find another job with a major airline.
So you don't mind if he finds a job with a smaller airline? :confused:
You've lost me, but no doubt it makes sense to you.

________________

It's interesting that some people (including the press) get very excited about extremely rare incidents involving alcohol and pilots, as if it was a serious flight safety problem, yet show little or no interest in pilot fatigue which actually is a serious flight safety issue which needs to be addressed and resolved.

FL

J.O.

18th Dec 2006, 16:13

niknak:

How nice for you to be judge and jury. You attempt to put out the flames by saying you were insensitive, then you go being insensitive yet again. The man has been punished for breaking the law, but you'd go on punishing him for life for a human mistake. How nice it must be to be perfect. :ugh:

Given the much greater societal problem of drinking and driving, I trust that you will never go near another automobile or roadway again in your life. Come to think of it, given the statistics about death caused by medical error, you'd best stay away from doctors and hospitals too! Have fun living out life in your little rubber room.

Bronx

18th Dec 2006, 17:43

I'm wondering if our vindictive friend niknak maybe's just got a chip on his shoulder about pilots? His attitude to controllers going to work when they been on a bender is kinda different. Check this out. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=256716)

:rolleyes:

Nick NOTOC

19th Dec 2006, 07:21

My company has the following procedure:

1) Alcoholism is indeed a sickness from which people can be cured
2) The company will assist you to get proper treatment
3) All crewmembers are responsible for each other with respect to the abuse of alcohol while on nightstops (as far as is sensible)
4) If a crewmember is susspected of being intoxicated he will be given the choice of reporting sick or being checked, if then found intoxicate immediate termination of employment will follow, if not no record will be kept.

To me this seems a simple but fair procedure, basically you'll be ok as long as you are not caught. Crewmembers who suspect alcoholism with a fellow crewmember are encougaged to seek indipendent aid for this abusing (sick) crewmember.
So far this procedure has helped two great pilots to overcome their addiction, possibly even more but such information is kept confidential of course.

Nick

Wiley

19th Dec 2006, 09:09

I think a point many seem to be missing is that there isn't some clearly defined "line in the sand" where, if you stand, as close as you like, but to one side of it, you're not an alcoholic, and one small pace left and suddenly you are.

***********

Getting back to the unfortunate case that triggered this thread, it needs to be said that the pilot involved:

(a) Had not had a drink for 17 hours - that's seventeen - before departure time, or 16 prior to sign on.

(b) Was suffering from high stress levels bordering on depression - and had been attempting to get treatment for this some time. (And any EK pilot will recognise how hard it is to get an appointment at the EK Clinic, where EK staff are obliged to go.)

(c) Much like Lyle Prouse, he has made absolutely no attempt to fight the charge, (which in my opinion, while - like Lyle - is admirable, is unfortunate, because I believe a proper medical assessment would have shown that his liver function is shot and much of that can be attributed to the stress he was under).

(d) Despite what was said in the media, neither the FO nor any of the cabin crew noticed anything unusual in his behaviour. I don't know for certain, but I'd suspect he didn't know himself that he was still over – or even anywhere near - the limit. He was simply feeling like **** at sign on - as many EK pilots do damn near every time they sign on lately, particularly since lately most are flying almost 100 STICK hours every 28 days. (Didn't I read somewhere that fatigue can impair performance as badly as being drunk? If that's the case, we've all been flying around as if drunk lately - and very cheaply, as we've rarely got time between flights to spend any of it in a bar!)

(e) The incident occurred when the craziness of “absolutely no liquids” had just been introduced and the security person was being… shall we say.. a little over eager in his enforcing of this then new dictum. The argument that led to the so-called inappropriate joke was over a tube of lip balm. I don’t know about most readers on this site, but I for one admit I would be in quite some discomfort towards the end of a seven hour flight if I wasn’t able to grease my lips. His “inappropriate” remark was anything but – I’ve said almost exactly the same thing myself in utter frustration to overzealous security personnel – “do you think I’m going to crash my own aeroplane?” - and left unsaid, “would having a tube of bloody lip balm in my nav bag make one iota of difference if I took it upon myself to do so?!!!”

(f) I know the man in question wears elastic-sided boots, which are a little more difficult to get on and off than lace ups. I know I present a less than graceful sight getting my lace ups off in the cramped space available at the head of the conveyor belt at LHR security.

As has been mentioned already on this thread, I suspect there are quite a few of us who enjoy a drink still "out there" for whom 12 hours (and in some airlines - 8) are not enough to clear the system to under .02 after a heavy night, and hopefully, this terrible incident will be a wakeup call to us all.

Whether any of us will admit to ourselves that we may be on the wrong side of that very ill-defined “line in the sand” is, I understand from what I have read (and observed in more than one of my friends and acquaintances), the hardest and most difficult step to take.

Sadly, despite the many enlightened comments made here, the stigma is still there, and many men, (and if I am being brutally honest, I'd have to include myself), would find it difficult to completely shake that attitude were I to find myself having to make the decision to making that first, huge admission to myself that I may be on the wrong side of the line.

EK Pilot

21st Dec 2006, 13:55

Is there any hope in returning to aviation life after such a penalty has been imposed? What happened to the ex Royal Brunei pilot who was arrested at Heathrow and served a prison sentence? I believe he is flying again in Asia. And what happened to the other Royal Brunei pilot who was chased through Heathrow by police having tried to get drugs into Brunei? He escaped whilst on bail but is he flying again?

niknak

21st Dec 2006, 20:49

Some of you may have noticed that this post was deleted, (by me) then ressurected by the Moderator Heliport.

My reason for deleting was because I recieved a number of abusive emails from sources which I've been unable to identify, directly linked to my original comments.
I had - perhaps rather naievly - put my family email address on my public profile, and the emails were opened by my young children, the nature of the abuse in the messages was, in this modern world, not entirely beyond their understanding and enough to cause them considerable distress.

I know that there are a small minority of mentally challenged individuals on any such forum who partake in such activities, but my kids don't.

In future, at least have the balls to abuse me by PM - then I can find out who you are!

ironbutt57

21st Dec 2006, 22:13

NikNak..as an airline pilot with 25+years invested in my career, I appreciate and admire your post...my first encounter with this situation was on my first check as a new capt...imagine the distress I suffered as I had to report sick to delay a flight when actually the check capt was still well under the influence...eventually thanks to an intervention program this individual became a "recovering alcoholic" and continued his career to a successful retirement...your concerns very justified...how do you know the surgeon performing surgery on yourself or family member is not a recovering alcoholic....or the driver who passes your car on the motorway wih a closure rate or 200kmh+ it is just "publicly correct" to publicize flt crew problems with alcohol...and rightfully so....remember some flt crews operate some horrific schedules with unbelievable time zone changes interrupted sleep patterns etc...etc one resorts to alcohol consumption which leads to abuse...not by any means attempting to justify these actions....just to shed some light on one of many reasons why it happens....so accept apologies from my colleagues from me....and please keep in mind that out of millions of airline departures daily these abusers are a very very small minority..an unacceptable one mind you..

Mac the Knife

22nd Dec 2006, 06:17

"...how do you know the surgeon performing surgery on yourself or family member is not a recovering alcoholic...."

You don't. I personally know two very successful surgeons, in recovery for 7 and I think 18 years now. Both are highly regarded in their field and one went on to develop pioneering techniques that have saved many limbs and lives.

If 'ol niknak had had his way both would be driving taxis now...

Mac

SEAN911

22nd Dec 2006, 19:02

For some insight into alcoholism I recommend:
"I'll Quit Tomorrow" by Vernon E. Johnson.
It's worth reading.
Sean

FlexibleResponse

24th Dec 2006, 12:10

Well done Chuck Ellsworth!

You are a special person with incredible self discipline. Your comments blow a lot of the naive posters here out of the water.

SLATS_EXTEND

24th Dec 2006, 16:14

niknak

It's interesting that some people (including the press) get very excited about extremely rare incidents involving alcohol and pilots, as if it was a serious flight safety problem, yet show little or no interest in pilot fatigue which actually is a serious flight safety issue which needs to be addressed and resolved.

FL

That sir is one of the most Intelligent statements made on any aviation forum...

Well Done!:D

rmiller774

28th Dec 2006, 04:27

rmiller74
Doesn't the fact that you've flown for 20 years and are still here to write about it make you feel reassured?

If you need more reassurance, there are some interesting statistics in the link below.
They relate to the Australian aviation industry over a 31 year period, but I have no reason to think the worldwide stats would be much different.

CLICK LINK (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=256203)

I did click on the link as you suggested and I got some email also. I have flown several hundred thousand miles without a scratch. What's to worry about?

Pinkman

28th Dec 2006, 06:55

As often happens on PPrune, the testosterone is drowning out the debate in some of the posts. Niknak has admitted he was insensitive, so leave him alone. This is an important debate for the industry and needs to be aired. Having been married to an alcoholic in denial, its easy to spot the posters who have been there and those that just don't 'get it'.

- Chuck Ellsworth, Lyle Prouse, and many others like them are the gold standard in what SHOULD happen - and frequently doesn't. In the 1990s Time Magazine ran an article about Lyle (one of several over the years) which included the following statement:

".......cockpit drunkenness is relatively rare. According to the Federal Aviation Administration, the rate of alcoholism is roughly the same for commercial pilots as for the U.S. population as a whole, affecting about 1 individual in 7. "We are not in a general sense concerned about alcohol use," says a spokesman for the Flight Safety Foundation, a Virginia-based research group. "We are always on the lookout, but there's no evidence that we have a significant problem."

Sorry if this sounds pompous, but when I read that, I was utterly appalled. I can only hope its got better, because expectations have changed in the last 25 years - we expect the aviation community to NOT be the same as the population as a whole - we expect that number to be vanishingly small. The fact that this is reported in the media a couple of times a month means that its probably happening daily, multiple times around the world.
I work in a safety critical field with zero tolerance for degradation of performance through Drugs and Alcohol (D&A). Employers conduct random D&A tests for safety critical jobs, and employees know they will probably get fired if they fail. Astonishingly, some still turn up pi***d for work. But we also know that the employer will go to extraordinary lengths to support us if we are honest and if we admit to having a problem. There is no easy answer to this one but there are a couple of 'no-brainers' for employers to help the good guys get back on track and get the bad actors out of the system:
- Don't drive it underground - make D&A Voluntary Counselling and Testing easy, confidential, and non-discriminatory.
- Adopt a zero tolerance policy and make the penalties for non-compliance more severe (yes, that includes losing your license). Tough. You knew the rules.
- The moving post from Lyle speaks for itself. While it may have added to the wake up factor afterwards, as a deterrent, prison is a pretty blunt and fairly dumb incentive to change behaviour.

Like you gave Niknak a hard time, you all can abuse me if you like, but I think this cozy 'don't ask - don't tell' and Nicks 'if you report in sick if challenged then you are OK' tells me that some parts of the industry just haven't 'got it' yet.

Sorry Guys. We expect more.

Pinkman

As a Postscript, I want to thank you Lyle, for your inspiration. Reading your story back then, and your description of your climb again to a 747 pilot gave me - a classic enabler - the courage and determination back in the late 90's to persevere with trying to get help for my wife. Sadly she refused to acknowledge the problem, but at least I can face myself in the mirror.

J.O.

28th Dec 2006, 15:39

Pinkman:

As you found out first hand, the most important step in getting better is in admitting the problem. For some, that day may never come.

I agree that a 1 in 7 ratio would be completely unacceptable, but I believe that professional pilots are better behaved than that. We are far less accepting of those who "push it" than we used to be. That said, there is still obvious room for improvement.

I also believe that this debate should transcend our industry and that it should be addressed by society in general. As long as society continues to view addiction as a behavioural problem which is best corrected by punishment (loss of a job/career, loss of priveleges, time in jail etc.), people will continue to hide from their problem for fear of retribution, even if someone in their life tries to transcend society's view and show them a better path. We need to treat these people the same way we treat anyone with a medical condition, with treatment, aftercare and a program which helps them cope with recovery.

I am not advocating that we coddle and hug people who put the lives of others in jeopardy while under the influence. They need to understand that society cannot accept putting others at risk. Sometimes that should mean incarceration. But, a large percentage of people who are nipped for DUI are repeat offenders, many of whom have done time in jail and/or had their driving priveleges suspended, but who have been allowed to drive again without any requirement to enter into a treatment program and a recovery process such as Alcoholics Anonymous. A program such as the ones Lyle and Chuck took part in is something we should offer to all of our peers, not just the ones who do the same job.

IMHO

Jeff

Pinkman

28th Dec 2006, 17:13

Spot on Jeff, couldnt agree more.

Pinkman

Flying Lawyer

29th Dec 2006, 09:42

Pinkman As often happens on PPrune, the testosterone is drowning out the debate in some of the posts. :confused:
We're each entitled to our opinions.
IMHO this has been an excellent discussion, with considered and informed contributions by the professional pilots who've posted. A few hang 'em and flog 'em posts (early stages) are inevitable.

JO "a large percentage of people who are nipped for DUI are repeat offenders, many of whom have done time in jail and/or had their driving priveleges suspended" That may be true of Canada, but not of the UK.
In the UK, only about 12% of drink/drive offenders are convicted of a second offence within 10 years (Department for Transport figures) and there is no evidence (so far as I'm aware) that any significant proportion of those have previously been imprisoned for drink/drive offences. Their 'driving privileges' would normally have been suspended for 12 months (minimum) following the first conviction.
(More severe penalties are imposed for a further conviction within 10 years so the figures are readily available for that period.)

FL

rubik101

29th Dec 2006, 14:35

Am I being a bit OTT when I say that Lyle Prouse's posts should be compulsory reading for all pilots? I found them enlightening, enlightened and moving. I have never read anything on PPrune that comes close to getting to the heart of an issue quite so eloquently and accurately.
As an added thought, is it significant that the originator of the thread, niknak, went awfully quiet during the time that Capt. Prouse was posting his thoughts, only to emerge once he had signed off? I for one, regret his absence and fear this thread will be the worse for his leaving. Perhaps it's time to close it, save it, print it and post it via CHIRP to us all.
Indeed, Blue Skies!

J.O.

29th Dec 2006, 18:28

JO That may be true of Canada, but not of the UK.
In the UK, only about 12% of drink/drive offenders are convicted of a second offence within 10 years (Department for Transport figures) and there is no evidence (so far as I'm aware) that any significant proportion of those have previously been imprisoned for drink/drive offences. Their 'driving privileges' would normally have been suspended for 12 months (minimum) following the first conviction.
(More severe penalties are imposed for a further conviction within 10 years so the figures are readily available for that period.)

Hi Tudor:

I suppose the term "large" is subjective. I'm sure you'd agree that if someone said that 12% of pilots were alcoholics, there'd be a loud cry for change. I happen to believe that if 12% of drunk drivers are repeat offenders, it is a large percentage (and our statistics in Canada are similar). I also believe that we are missing an opportunity by not making it mandatory that all offenders undergo an assessment to determine if they have an addiction to alcohol, or if they are alcohol abusers (as they are different animals). The assessment should be followed by mandatory participation in an appropriate treatment and/or prevention program as a condition for the reinstatement of driving priveleges. The same could apply to anyone who is found to be performing any regulated "safety critical" activity while under the influence.

Jeff

Bring Back The Biff

30th Dec 2006, 02:17

(a) Had not had a drink for 17 hours - that's seventeen - before departure time, or 16 prior to sign on.
(b) Was suffering from high stress levels bordering on depression - and had been attempting to get treatment for this some time. (And any EK pilot will recognise how hard it is to get an appointment at the EK Clinic, where EK staff are obliged to go.)
(c) Much like Lyle Prouse, he has made absolutely no attempt to fight the charge, (which in my opinion, while - like Lyle - is admirable, is unfortunate, because I believe a proper medical assessment would have shown that his liver function is shot and much of that can be attributed to the stress he was under
Sorry to question your medical credentials Wiley, but regardless of the time he claims to have taken his last drink; he was drunk - and not just over .02 - he tested 0.23.
Secondly, liver function is not affected by stress - it is affected by long term heavy consumption of alcohol.

niknak

30th Dec 2006, 15:26

OK, I'll say it again, I was OTT and "holier than though" in some of my original comments but, for good or bad, it has bought out some fairly graphic descriptions of what alcohol can (or to those in denial - cannot) do to any of us.
Keep the thread going - if it only helps one of us, I'd be happy to take all the abuse you can sling at me...

rubik101

30th Dec 2006, 16:16

Nuff said NickNak. Honesty is something we all lack, when we look inwardly, myself included. I think we have all learned something from this thread and I thank you for starting it in the first place. I also understand why you tried to pull it but I, like you, am glad it was reinstated.
I like to think that I am a social drinker. I am sure most of us on this site think the same thing. However, a couple of beers before dinner followed by a bottle of wine in the evening are well on the way to being alcoholic. Particularly if you are as old as I am!
I, for one, have reappraised my drinking habits recently. I now insist my wife drinks at least one glass of wine!
Seriously though, how many of us walk that fine line between addiction and social drinking, if there is such a thing? If you, like me, drink every day after work, then you are probably, like me, an alcoholic. You are dependant, like me. Try stopping for a day, two days, three days and tell us all what affect the effort had on you. Go on, try it. I did and the result was a real eye opener. I craved a drink at 9.30 pm on day 1. Pathetic. I gave up the struggle and opened the wine on day 2 at about 10.pm. Even more pathetic.
There, but for the grace of your god, etc.........Cheers.:confused:

tankermytanker

30th Dec 2006, 16:44

Many years ago in college I quit for a week. I did crave a beer/alcohol, but resisted for the week. What I found very interesting was that one of my roommates said, "You know you can do it, just have a beer with us!" This made it particularly difficult of course to continue the last two days of my abstinence. But I told him and myself, that it was my judgment that was in question. Could I actually tell myself that I 'could make it' if I actually didn't.
Great Thread & Happy New Year to all (especially to those on an early New Years Day!!, like me)
Tank

LProuse

31st Dec 2006, 14:56

Sure, go ahead.

I've stayed out of the fray since signing off but have responded to several via PM's.

Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse

LProuse

2nd Jan 2007, 16:25

This is offered for what it's worth although it's longer than I intended. I offer it based on decades of studies and research, all of which is available for your objective assessment. You may accept this, reject it, pooh-pooh it, or whatever. It's what I've learned in 16 plus years of being sober and working in the field of alcoholism/addiction. It's also very personal.

One definition of alcoholism is "When one continues to drink in the face of adverse or even lethal consequences." The simplest one (I think) is: "If one experiences problems due to alcohol and continues to drink." Problems can be relationships (husband/wife, family, friends, coworkers, etc), legal problems (DUIs, jail, lawsuits, etc), employment (excessive absenteeism, poor or declining performance...), financial, health issues due to booze, and many others.

If one cannot stop drinking - and stay stopped - it's a good indication of a problem. I quit many times, sometimes for a month, two (usually before an FAA physical), or whatever, but I never intended to stop permanently. I was convinced that my ability to stop for a month or more was proof positive I could NOT be an alcoholic. And I was dead wrong.

Statistics can tell you anything if they're tortured enough, but the following is considered both true and accurate. In the U.S., 7 out of every 10 people drink. Of the 7 who drink, only 2 are genuinely "social drinkers," although we all claim to be. A social drinker is a person who could care less if they finish their drink and only have a drink to "be social." I always thought an unfinished drink was an example of alcohol abuse.

The remaining 5 will abuse alcohol to some degree, some more than others (driving home drunk from a bar), over-indulging from time to time, etc. Of those 5, 1 will become alcoholic, so there's a 10% overall alcoholism factor in the general population. I am aware that some ethnic groups are different.

Most abusers eventually slow down as they age and time takes its toll; that has certainly been true among my friends over the years. But while they were slowing down, my tolerance was still rapidly increasing. In the midst of abusers it's difficult to pick the alcoholic out of the crowd, especially since alcoholism is a long process and not a sudden event. All alcoholics first use alcohol, then abuse it, and eventually slide into alcoholism, and there is an early, middle, and late stage to the disease marked by certain symptoms along the way. Most of us visualize alcoholics in the late stage (drunks in doorways, alleys, drinking out of brown paper bags, etc) and we're blind to those in the early and middle stages.

Ironically, I learned that 95% of all alcoholics are upper income over achievers, and that only 5% fit the picture I had. None of my initial beliefs or ideas was accurate.

Two of the most significant symptoms for me were preoccupation and loss of control, or predictability. And they were both extremely subtle. I knew where most of the liquor stores or bars were on most of my layovers. I knew which liquor stores were open on Sunday, which closed early at night, and when I needed to carry my own booze. I attached no significance to this, however, as I just considered it "good planning." Checking my booze supply at home to make sure I had plenty, selecting restaurants that had liquor licenses so I could have drinks with/after my meal were only two examples of my preoccupation with alcohol.

I was never a morning drinker nor did I check my watch for the 5 o'clock "cocktail hour." My drinking patterns varied and I did not always drink every night or every weekend. I did not beat or abuse my wife and kids. I didn't do a LOT of things I was convinced all alcoholics did...but I also operated from a base of zero actual knowledge about it. Like many pilots, I assumed my ideas and opinions constituted knowledge and facts.

One strong symptom is loss of control, or more accurately, loss of predictability. Many years ago, it was no problem for me to "stop for a couple," have them, and go on my way. Later, I would stop "for just two," and I might have them and head home - or I might stay and close the bar, stay longer than I intended at a friends and drink, and call home to say I'd miss dinner. More and more and ever so slowly, my intentions failed to match my actions...after I'd had that first drink. Of course, there were times I fully intended to make an evening of it, but that's not what this is about.

I learned later that it's not the 10th drink that causes me to get drunk - it's the first one that triggers the so-called "phenomenon of craving," or loss of predictability. After that first drink I can no longer accurately or consistently predict what I'm going to do.

I am an alcoholic. I metabolize alcohol different than you but will not go into that here. I also have the usual (but not always) close, genetic predisposition since both my parents died of this disease. The genetics can skip generations but the connection is very parallel to that of diabetics and just as deadly. If one parent is alcoholic, the child is 4 times more likely to develop the disease. With both parents alcoholic, the risks increase exponentially, not linearly.

There is no shame in being a recovering alcoholic; there is only shame in continuing to drink. I'm not a victim of anything because I've taken action to recover and I refuse to be a victim. No one I ever knew intentionally set out to become an alkie...anymore than any smoker I ever knew did so with the intention of dying from lung or other cancer. (I've never smoked)

One gent sent me a message saying, "Alcoholism is a self-inflicted disease." I responded by saying I'd heard that before and believed that idea was supported by the need to feel superior, much as I could point to someone obese and feel the same way - if I chose. Most things that come our way due to poor choices and bad behavior are "self-inflicted"; and that includes many things we visit upon ourselves due to poor lifestyle choices, which often includes the top killer diseases of heart disease, cancer, and stroke. But none of us use the "self inflicted" comment for those situations.

Some will undoubtedly choose to take issue with this, I'm sure. If you do, how about using facts versus injecting opinon and visceral reaction. Having been a pilot since 1961 I'm familiar with the propensity of pilots to be authorities on things we know nothing about -and I include mself in that group...although I've done much to try to change that.

Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse

egbt

2nd Jan 2007, 21:31

An exception thread, thanks to Lyle, Chuck et al for their excellent posts made more poignant for me by the recent death of my sister-in-law from alcohol abuse at the age of only 38. RIP

fullCircling

3rd Jan 2007, 06:33

Excellent post, LProuse! Very insightful!

Marooned

3rd Jan 2007, 06:57

LProuse:

Very interesting and inspirational posts. Your candor & eloquence on such a sensitive subject has been touching & enlightening.

I began a thread on the health forums on pilots and depression through which alcohol featured very frequently as cause and effect.

If anyone should write a book, you should... and when you do, let me know where to get it.

Happy New Year to all.

smellysnelly2004

6th Jan 2007, 15:36

Quite simply an awesome thread.

A wonderful depth of passion and consideration from some truly inspiring people.

Capt Prouse, your words are both powerful and considered. At the start of this thread I had the 'lock em up and throw away the key' mentality. You have permanently changed that.

Thank you

:D

rmiller774

7th Jan 2007, 04:28

LProuse

Yes, very educational. I wish that the many bosses and fellow workers that I was associated with during my working years (forget about any clear thinking after lunch) had been able to follow the path that you took.

I have a question about your post where you say " There is no shame in being a recovering alcoholic...". What advice do you give recovering alcoholics about revealing their state when they are seeking employment. Should they keep such a personal matter to themselves, if within the law, or is this something that they are encouraged to reveal? I ask because some unenlightened recruiters might just select the "other guy" everything else being equal.

Marooned

7th Jan 2007, 13:07

LP
Thank you for your PM and my apologies for not replying likewise but I am in a region where my posts are far from favorable to my current employer (deservedly so) and think it wise not to use PMs for the time being (it pays to be paranoid).
I would ask that you PM however when item is available as discussed.
Regards.

LProuse

7th Jan 2007, 13:54

Dear Mr. Miller,

You've asked a tough question. My answer will most likely be one that some, perhaps many, will not fully understand.

As far as employment is concerned, the Americans with Disabilities Act, known as the ADA, was enacted to prevent employers from discriminating against people with disabilities - such as being a recovering alcoholic (altho I don't consider that a "disability"). It's a complex act, contrary to the often simple and misdirected intent many ascribe to it. In a perfect world my status as a recovering alcoholic would not affect my chances for employment. Most of us know that's not the reality.

Let me set a foundation for what I'm about to say. Most of us who recover for the long term are involved in a 12 step program. Chuck is an example of one who's not; his treatment was a different model but he's successfully remained abstinent so who cares. It makes no difference to me how someone recovers; but I like the process I've chosen.

Honesty is perhaps THE most emphasized part of recovery (in the 12 step model) from the very outset. It cannot be selective or compromised in any way if the alcoholic is to remain sober...because dishonesty is one of the prime ingredients for active alcoholism. I have to lie to myself, my family, my friends, my employer, and to everyone else in order to successfully continue to drink. I lie when I say, "I only had a couple," or "I'm not hurting anyone but myself," or "You'd drink too if you were dealing with my problems," or "I work hard and I deserve a few drinks," and it goes on and on with a hundred more examples. I lie about where I was, how long I was there, what I did, ad nauseum.

So one of the first of the dubious luxuries I have to give up is dishonesty in any form, whether it's cheating on my income tax, telling "a little white lie" or anything else. We learn that anything we put ahead of our sobriety will be eventually be lost, and unless we believe that with every fiber of our being we will find ways and reasons to end up losing our sobriety. If you look around you will see ample evidence of that everywhere. Relapse requires self-deception and I cannot afford to tease the tiger in any way, big or small, because of the subtle, cunning, baffling, powerful, and patient nature of this disease.

I do not meet people in a shopping mall or any other setting and say, "Hi, I'm Lyle, and I'm a recovering acoholic." Yet I never shy away from or try to hide that fact. I believe I should disclose when it's appropriate and leave it alone when it's not. For the most part, it never comes up.

If a job application asks if I've ever been treated or diagnosed for alcohol or drug abuse my answer is a solid YES. To answer in the negative would be a lie and I cannot risk my sobriety by compromising my honesty. There are those who have never been treated or diagnosed professionally but who came to sobriety as a result of their own self-discovery. I do not think they are obligated to answer in the affirmative, but they may want to consider that very thoughtfully. Most employers do not ask this anymore due to the ADA, but in this day and age they can usually run a computer search and find out. And they can deny employment without ever mentioning the reason why.

As to whether or not I would volunteer the information openly, there's an old Marine Corps saying that "it depends on the situation and the terrain." Personally, I tend to disclose as I don't want something waiting to ambush me, but others have their own decisions to make in that regard.

Alcoholism is costly. Although I'm recovering, doors have been closed and I have been denied opportunities as a result of it, primarily because I chose to openly disclose it. But I need to accept it peacefully because "I did what I did...so I got what I got." I was denied life insurance, for example, but eventually a company asked me to sign releases for all my hospital records, sent people out to interview me and my wife, and I was eventually granted a very selective premium policy at a "less risk" cost (!) than the general public pays. Go figure. When the doors close, my job is to patiently and peacefully keep knocking until one opens.

I fly charitable flights for Angel Flight here in America. I fully disclosed everything to them prior to becoming one of their volunteers, and they welcomed me aboard. I will never put myself in a position where I must fear discovery.

If I take a flying job and try to hide, disguise, or camouflage my alcoholism, I will forever cringe when I get a notice from the chief pilot about something...wondering if this will be the time he calls me in and confronts me about it. I can think of nothing worse than to prematurely end my career due to some sort of happenstance where the past is dredged up and I'm let go due to a fraudulent employment application I filled out 10 or 15 years ago.

Recovery grants me freedom. Freedom from alcohol is the first I am allowed to experience. As I actively do the hard work demanded by each of the 12 steps (repairing the damage of the past when possible, making amends, continuing to take a daily inventory, etc.), I am granted more and more freedom. But freedom from the past, freedom from fear, freedom from shame and guilt, and all the myriad other ways I am allowed to experience it, can only come from total, uncompromised honesty.

Today I can walk anywhere, look anyone in the eye, hold my shoulders back, and move through life with nothing to fear. Sobriety has given me that I guard it jealously.

If someone chooses to look down on me, that's their business and none of mine. My job is to keep working on me; they have their own journey.

Blue skies,
Lyle

rmiller774

7th Jan 2007, 23:27

Dear Capt Prouse

Thank you very much for your reply. I didn't mean to put you to all of that work answering my trivial question.. As most of the others reading this thread have indicated I also have learned a great deal from your several remarkable posts. I intend to continue to follow this thread. Anyone who served in the Marines for ten years has got to be a tough and determined individual. Thankfully you now use your knowledge to help others. This is a blessing. RMiller

blueside^

9th Jan 2007, 05:57

Bravo Lyle, Bravo.

I must admit to have avoided this post, as the Gentleman in question that prompted it, is a mate of mine. Now I have to say (with selective reading) how glad I am I returned to read what you wrote.

Wiley

9th Jan 2007, 07:34

Ten or so pages ago on this thread I recommended a book that gives some insight to anyone who may want to learn about the incredibly difficult road a recovering alcoholic takes when he makes that all-important decision to fix his (or her) problem.

I think - thanks almost entirely to Lyle and Chuck, (and we should all thank them both again) - there might be a few more of us now in a state of mind to look further than the knee-jerk reaction of "sack the guilty bastard and throw his licence away forever", so let me give the details of the book again:

"Matthew Flinder's Cat" by Bryce Courtney.

As I said above, it ain't a smooth downhill highway, and Mr Courtney certainly shows that in some detail.

Chuck Ellsworth

10th Jan 2007, 16:07

I thought I would post again to mention that 22 years ago today I started my treatment at Schick Shadel hospital, since that day I have never had a drink of alcohol in any form.

I can only wonder if I would still be alive today had I not quit but one thing for sure this past 22 years has been far different from the days I was a slave to a drink with all the baggage that went with that addiction.

None of us think or feel exactly the same about things in our lives and each of us have only ourselves to answer to in the final analysis.

I wish to make a rather different comment at this point in time, most alcoholics who quit drinking think of themselves as recovering alcholics, I am going to step out of that mold and think of myself as recovered due to the fact I no longer have any symptoms of the disease.

I hope you all will give me that privelage to at least in my own mind step from recovering to recovered?

All the best to all of you in the coming years.

Chuck E.

J.O.

10th Jan 2007, 21:08

Chuck:

Thanks to the thoughtful words of Lyle and yourself, I now realize that recovery is as much about mindset and self awareness as it is about being medically clear of the addiction. If 22 years of successful sobriety doesn't qualify you to consider yourself recovered, then I have no idea what would. I believe you've earned it.

All the best,

Jeff

Classic Dick

11th Jan 2007, 08:22

J.O. I gave up smoking 20 years ago. A nicotine addict, I could start smoking again tomorrow - very easily. I believe in another 5 years I will still feel the same, but will never let the weed control me again.

I smell the air, taste my food and never cough anymore. I don't wreak of smoker's breath, my teeth and fingers are no longer stained brown and I walk 5 kms a day without breathlessness.

Like the alcoholic, I shall never be rid of this wretched addiction no matter how much time passes, but I enjoy life without smoking cigarettes.

LProuse

11th Jan 2007, 13:35

So...who cares? Each person must find their own level of comfort with this disease in order to accomodate their recovery and achieve - and maintain - their sobriety.

Since alcoholism is a chronic, progressive disease I consider myself recovering vs recovered. Chronic means "it never goes away, or it recurs". And, as I mentioned in another post, it's called "Alcohol-is'm...not alcohol-was'm."

Medical science shows that alcoholism never goes away but can be arrested. (Grin) - Once "pickled," a cucumber will never be a cucumber again!

So...recovered...or recovering...I've always smiled at the issue of "ed" vs "ing" as it seems pretty trivial as long as one is sober today. And I'm always curious as to why it should even be an issue. But...to each his/her own and it just simply makes no difference to me how someone else chooses to handle this. Each of us has to decide how we'll handle our alcoholism. If someone has been abstinent for 22 years then whatever they're doing must be working - and good for them.

I've had no desire to drink for nearly 17 years so in that sense I display no symptoms, either. But the disease is still active and hidden inside and will come alive the second I ingest the first sip of booze. The fact that it can't be seen is meaningless, in my view. Or perhaps, that makes it even more dangerous.

The use of "ing" (as in recovering) keeps me in the present as a reminder that I need to be ever vigilant about relapse. It's easy to "forget," after a number of years, just how bad it was and how bad it can be again, and many an alcoholic has discovered that to his or her chagrin - and sometimes demise.

Others may do what they wish, but I never want to believe that I've beaten this disease or got it made. My alcoholism will never be a thing of the past so I do not choose the past tense..it will never go away. My active alcoholism (as in "drinking") is, hopefully, a thing of the past but I never want to become complacent and think all my battles have been fought. Thus, I maintain a healthy level of fear and respect for my disease, remembering that the time to plan for war is in time of peace. I've watched far too many become victims of a mental/emotional ambush, wondering afterwards what the hell happened. Alcoholism is mental, emotional, and physical and two of the three axes reside where no one can see them.

So, "ed" or "ing," whatever... Again, to each his/her own. But I will always be recovering and am just fine with that. Once they put me in the casket (sober), they can change it to "ed". In the meantime, who cares..?

Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse

Chuck Ellsworth

11th Jan 2007, 15:47

I wish to clarify something so no one gets the wrong impression regarding the horror of being an alcoholic.

Lyle said:

" But the disease is still active and hidden inside and will come alive the second I ingest the first sip of booze. The fact that it can't be seen is meaningless, in my view. Or perhaps, that makes it even more dangerous."

Of all the mistakes made by alcoholics forgetting that 100% true fact is the most dangerous thing one can do, I never, never, never ever lose sight of the brutal fact that I must never ever even think of even ingesting one gram of alcohol in any form. I never even eat a piece of cake without checking to see if it was soaked in rum before being cooked. For us alocholics that is like picking up a gun and putting it to our head and pulling the trigger to find out if it is loaded.

So please do not think that I feel I think of my self as recovered in the true sense of the word.....I only used that word to describe this moment in time.

Each of us must use whatever means we are most comfortable with to motivate ourselves to remain recovering forever.

Just thought I would clarify my thoughts so as not to have anyone think that an alcoholic can ever control his/her drinking by any means other than abstenience.

Chuck

kiwi express

13th Jan 2007, 09:34

booze and flying..........zero tolerance. end of story.:=

olliew

24th Jan 2007, 13:27

It just cant be done. End of story...:=:=
But the story will go on for as long as there is alcohol available in society and I am most definitely not proposing the return of prohibition.

I flew commercially for some years and in that time I was often 'under the influence' from the previous nights excesses. This is not something I am proud of but I have learnt lessons since which I hope might benefit others. My Flying career came to a sudden end when a melanoma was found on one of my retinas and subsequent operations led to a partial loss of periphal vision. My reaction was to drown my sorrows in a three month binge the details of which I won't go into except to say that in that period I reached a rock bottom the likes of which I would rather not return to. More importantly I came to believe and admit that I had a serious drink problem (of thirty years standing) and that I could not lick it on my own.
I have now not touched alcohol for well over a year and am most relieved and grateful to be able to class myself as a recovering alcoholic.

That I did not kill myself or, more importantly, anyone else when I was flying, and alot of the time certainly not fit to be doing so, is a miracle about which I have beliefs. That I have been given an opportunity to live a life as a recovering alcoholic is a fact for which I owe a large debt of gratitude.

I believe that an active alcoholic is nine times out of ten living a life of denial. Initially denial that any sort of drink problem exists and at the same time a denial of reality. Just as a drink driver might believe that he is not only capable of driving but maybe even better at it than the next person an alcoholic pilot can believe that he is completely capable of performing his duties and will rationalise his arguments to the extent that he knows he is right beyond doubt. I know this in no way exonerates him for his actions but it is an undoubted part of the illness

So to say that this cannot be done is unfortunately not the case. The story will continue and I feel an important question is how can the situation best be handled.

For my part I now work as a ground instructor and when not at work dedicate alot of my time to working with fellow alcoholics. One of the most challenging aspects (and at times rewarding) of this is addressing the question of denial. Once the problem has been recognised and admitted to, then and only then can steps be taken to make good damage done in the past and hopefully prevent further damage being done.

J.O.

24th Jan 2007, 18:13

Well said Ollie. Thank you for taking the time to help others. I wish you continued good health.

gulfairs

25th Jan 2007, 02:40

I am near the end of my flying life,(now recreational) but reading most of the pontifications on JD( who I do NOT know) I am forced to become very Biblical
He without sin may cast the first stone.
I would venture to say that most of the authors of the diatribe holier than thou, at some time of their flying life have broken the Bottle to Throttle flying rules be whatever thay were/are.
JD sound like any other Red blooded male who had a slip in judgment, but I would bet the remainder of my pension his F/O or Senoir Cabin attendant would have had a word in his reddening ear about pissing off home sick.
And called for a standby pilot due "ill health."
( he was Ill. just lost his marbles on one occasion) so now ostracised for the rest of his Life.
Come on Guys and some Girls,
Grow up and shoulder together.
The public envy us enough as it is, because we are all millionairs yeah.
BBG

Little Boy

27th Jan 2007, 10:37

Unfortunately it's quirk of human nature that the imprisonment of one pilot and the ensuing possible total loss of livelihood is likely to stop more pilots from drinking before flying, than an accident with massive loss of life where alcohol was shown to be a contributing factor.

I'm full of praise for the successes of those posters who are recovering alcoholics, but there are also failures in the fight with alcohol and can we afford those.

L'aviateur

27th Jan 2007, 22:49

i'm directly responsible for 1800 souls for 8 hours a day, everyday for 8 months a year. I would never hand over a duty to someone intoxicated, and i believe that anyone intoxicated who decides to try and take responsibility should be punished to the maximum extent and never should be given a second chance considering how important life is!!!!

I think anyone who believes otherwise should try to consider the position from a managerial point of view,.

Flying Lawyer

27th Jan 2007, 22:56

........................ says L'aviateur, aged 22. :rolleyes:

flown-it

27th Jan 2007, 23:04

1800 souls...thats one hell of an airplane

J.O.

27th Jan 2007, 23:09

I think anyone who believes otherwise should try to consider the position from a managerial point of view,.

Have you read even one tenth of this thread? Somehow I doubt it, but in any case, it will no doubt be a surprise to you that many flight operations managers (myself included) do not take your view at all. Rather, we take the much more human view that people are an asset and that you manage them accordingly. Yes, you must intervene if they try to work under the influence, but you do not toss them aside as if they're trash. You show them the path to getting better, and you try to help them get back on their feet. When they accept responsibility for their past behaviour and they take the necessary steps to get better, you welcome them with open arms. The day you make a mistake (and you will, it's only a matter of time), I certainly hope your manager has a more open mind than yourself.

Flying Lawyer

28th Jan 2007, 05:57

1800 souls...thats one hell of an airplane

:)

According to his Profile, he's a ship's navigator and student PPL.

Ironically, he lists "drinking" amongst his 'interests'.

Little Boy

28th Jan 2007, 15:21

Consider the following transgessions, then consider their possible effects on third parties, the normal punishments and ultimate effect on the livelihood of the offender:

1). Professional athlete - tests positive for prohibited (not illegal) substance, bearing in mind that prohibited substances may be found in over the counter medicines.

2). Joe Public - attempts to drive or drives a car whilst under the influence.

3). Bus Driver - attempts to drive or drives a bus under the influence.

4). Airline Pilot - attempts to fly or flies a plane whilst under the influence.

Which do you consider to be the most serious? Seems to me that professional athletes get a pretty rough deal in comparison!

I lived in Dubai for 9 years and routinely watched Emirates pilots drinking to excess before flying and some of those observed were repeat offenders. This suggests to me that these actions are not being policed by the peers of the offenders or the industry. Again these people were "nice guys" not alcoholics. They were enjoying a social drink and knew exactly what they were doing. I'm reasonably confident that Dubai is not unique in this.

We have all read from earlier posters the notion that "we have all done this at some point and got away with it" and seem to be offering it as some sort of defence for the offenders. If this statement is correct the colleagues of these individuals have also knowingly ignored the events, so the internal policing scenario seems a bit flawed.

In Dubai, where JD has been jailed, this punishment certainly is not extreme as you can end in prison simply for being the manager of a company in which an employee has been injured or killed. No defence is being offered for Dubai here.

No one wants to see anyone lose their livelihood but certain individuals are not taking their responsibilities seriously. If the industry cannot take care of its own dirty laundry then it deserves all it gets

Wiley

28th Jan 2007, 16:35

Judging by a few of the recent posts, it would seem we’ve found ourselves a whole new readership for this thread – and one that hasn’t bothered to wade through the very many posts that make it up before illuminating us with their wisdom. Little Boy, you say: I lived in Dubai for 9 years and routinely watched Emirates pilots drinking to excess before flying and some of those observed were repeat offenders.Which begs the obvious question: …and you “watched” this “routinely” for 9 years and did nor said nothing?

I suspect your routine watching of EK pilots drinking to excess before flying can be given about as much credibility as the accuracy of your “knowledge” of this case. In Dubai, where JD has been jailed,

LProuse

28th Jan 2007, 18:25

(Laughing lightly....)

Looks like the Merry Go Round has come full circle.

It's easy for me to take the high road of smug superiority and wallow in self-righteous delusions of grandeur, believing in my own near-perfection. Thus I can render all sorts of pronouncements, judgments, and brilliant argument to lesser beings.

The only thing I have to do is set my own personal standards low enough to let me think like that...

Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse

Recovering alcoholic, and honorably ret'd 747 captain of considerably more than 22 years of age and experience.

Little Boy

28th Jan 2007, 21:33

Wiley
I apologise for my error over the venue of JDs imprisonment, and yes it did seem fairly lenient for Dubai. I had read a large number of the posts before posting and a couple of those suggested that the offence occurred in Dubai. I have now read all of the posts including #135 which contained UK information.
I also note that you appear to work for Emirates so matbe you know what I'm talking about. So, whether you accept the information in my previous post as credible or not means nothing to me, it happened.
Which begs the obvious question: …and you “watched” this “routinely” for 9 years and did nor said nothing?
I do not and did not work for Emirates but did know some of the pilots to talk through my friendships with FAs and recognised others ditto. I suppose I could have called the cops or something, but aren't you guys who share a flightdeck in a better position to deal with it with less risk to these guys' livelihood.
I'm not on a soapbox ranting about sacking and banning people because they've had a few drinks. Flying whilst over the limit is an offence, its happening and if the industry doesn't deal with you can be sure, in this day and age, someone else will.
I work in the offshore oil industry where a number of companies now operate a zero tolerence policy where passengers can turn up at a chopper, fit to fly a plane, but will be sacked for failing the breath test and subsequent blood test.

J.O.

28th Jan 2007, 22:18

Consider the following transgessions, then consider their possible effects on third parties, the normal punishments and ultimate effect on the livelihood of the offender:

1). Professional athlete - tests positive for prohibited (not illegal) substance, bearing in mind that prohibited substances may be found in over the counter medicines.

2). Joe Public - attempts to drive or drives a car whilst under the influence.

3). Bus Driver - attempts to drive or drives a bus under the influence.

4). Airline Pilot - attempts to fly or flies a plane whilst under the influence.

Which do you consider to be the most serious? Seems to me that professional athletes get a pretty rough deal in comparison!

A flawed argument I'm afraid. First of all, athletes who take banned substances get a "rough ride" not because they are putting lives in danger, but because they are cheating at their chosen profession. To compare that to flying, you'd have to be talking about a guy who got a flying job with a falsified log book. He too would deserve a "rough ride" when caught.

As for the car driver vs bus driver vs pilot, this too is a flawed argument. You make it sound like the pilot should be treated differently (i.e. more harshly) because of the number of lives at stake. Putting even one person's life in danger is wrong, period. Same would apply for a doctor or a trainman or anyone else. No one here has suggested that JD wasn't wrong in what he did. We simply believe he deserves the chance to redeem himself and get back in the seat, just like the car driver, or the bus driver, or even your professional athelete can do once their penance has been paid. The fact that EK would let their desire to save face get in the way of that is a shame. It certainly pushes them down several notches on my list of companies I'd want to work for, and I rarely drink at all!

For pilots who have returned to flying after completing a detox program and the twelve steps (or some similar support process), the success rate (i.e. staying sober) is over 90%. From a management perspective, that number represents a significant benefit by retaining alot of valuable experience. Those who succeed often go on to help others as well, such as Lyle, Chuck and the others who have spoken of their personal experiences in this thread.

Finally, unless you can prove beyond doubt that those EK pilots you claim you "saw" drinking to excess were actually under the influence when they went to work, you may want to think twice before making such provocative statements.

Wiley

29th Jan 2007, 05:14

Little Boy, allow me to give you an example as to why I reacted the way I did to your – let’s face it – very serious allegation. And as you read on, the fact that you mention that your contacts with EK pilots was via your friendship with some EK FAs might be particularly pertinent.

A little over 12 months ago, (mid Jan 2006), a senior EK pilot was doing his annual line check, an 8.00am departure to another Gulf port. On the first leg, the check captain had left the flight deck briefly for the usual reason and when he returned, asked the captain if he could speak to him in private in the forward galley. He told the captain that one of the FAs had just told him that she had seen the captain at a party the night before ‘absolutely wasted’ only an hour or two before sign-on for the flight.

The captain was mystified, as the last thing even the most cock-sure of us is going to be doing before his early morning line check (or any flight!) is even attending a party the night before, let alone being ‘absolutely wasted’ at it. He asked to speak to the girl who had made the allegation.

“Oh, I didn’t see you; one of the other girls on the crew did.”

The other girl was asked to come to the galley and she was asked if what the first girl said was true. “Oh, it wasn’t last night – it was last week at *****’s party.”

“That was New Year’s Eve!” said the captain, (over a week earlier). “And I had the first few days of January off.”

“Yes, but you were really drunk.” replied the girl.

The two captains involved laughed the incident off – a classic case of Chinese Whispers.

I’m not sure I would have been so laid back about it. Those two young ladies needed to be made aware that there are consequences to making comments like that.

In your original post, you say you saw“Emirates pilots drinking to excess before flying and some of those observed were repeat offenders.”Although you don’t actually say it, most people reading a comment like that would take it to read “drinking to excess immediately before flying” (ie, late at night the night before an early morning departure).

It would seem from your second post that your sources who introduced you to these EK pilots are EK FAs. Is it possible that your routine sightings might have been a bit like the one I’ve detailed above? If they weren’t, and your recollections are accurate, I’d hate to think how you’d have felt if just on one of the many occasions over that 9 year period where you routinely saw EK pilots drinking to excess before flights, 300+ people had died due to the pilot being drunk.

Little Boy

29th Jan 2007, 16:56

Wiley,
Sadly, neither rumour nor conjecture. The only uncertainty on my part arises from the fact that I did not see these guys board the aircraft, that they did is the subject of 3rd party information. However I am pleased that this has shocked you as maybe the practice is (or was) not as widely spread as I had imagined. I don't know how long you have lived in Dubai, but the period I am referring to was from 1991 to 2000 although I am still a frequent visitor. Dubai during this period was a very different place from what it is today. In 1991 the majority of a relatively small ex-pat community congregated around certain bars in Bur Dubai and the Lodge and it was rare to see people you didn't recognise. At this time I lived in the Hyatt Galleria and later during the mentioned time frame frequently visited a certain bar just behind 5 towers (they were considered to be towers when built) on Sheikh Zayed Rd. Depending on how long you have been in Dubai you may or may not know the significance of these 2 venues.
My own recollectons in conjunction with reading this thread prompted me to post and I am trying, successfully or not, to raise questions in order to elicit an informed response.
JO
I find it hard to believe that my arguments are flawed as I have offered none. I proffered a set of scenarios and asked for answers. I did put forward my opinion that maybe Professional Athletes are treated a little harshly. Typically, those testing positive for prohibited substances will recieve a ban ranging from from 2-10 years which in a number of sports is effectively ending their career and their livelihood. We can look at this offence as cheating or as breaking their contract of employment. The other 3 activities involve breaking the (UK) law and possibly breaking a contract of employment as well.
We may or may not believe the legislation and / or the penalties to be fair but they are there and have to be accepted. Whether you or I agree with it or not is irrelevant, somebody somewhere obviously believes that drinking and flying is a more serious offence than drinking and driving hence
20mg/100ml and 2 years max
as opposed to
80mg/100ml and 6 months max
I am asking questions to which I do not know the answers, which arise out of what I believe to be a logical thought process.
Usually legislation is introduced in response to a problem or specific event.
Why was the legislation introduced?
Is there a problem?
Is the industry successfully policing itself?
If we look at the cases of the Royal Brunei and Emirates pilots sentenced to prison terms. Both had (please correct me if I'm wrong) BACs not only in excess of the flying limit but high enough to be considered legally drunk. In both cases they were flagged by security and in both cases their colleagues seemed to state that they noticed nothing wrong with them. From this thread and others it is obvious that there is some animosity between aircrew and security.........So, some more questions.
Did security on the days in question flag a number of pilots and these were the only positives?
Are most pilots flying drunk and therefore security have a good chance of a hit?
Do security flag any pilot who they may feel has a bit of an attitude? If so what's the success rate?
Did security on the days in question only flag these pilots and correctly diagnose the cause of the supposedly abnormal behaviour?
I don't know the answer to the above, I wasn't there.
Give me some sensible answers and put my mind at rest!

Flying Lawyer

29th Jan 2007, 18:19

Little Boy

Usually legislation is introduced in response to a problem or specific event. Why was the legislation introduced?
In relation to the UK: No. The legislation was not introduced in response to a problem or specific event.
The Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 was the first convenient legislative opportunity to bring UK legislation relating to alcohol/aviation into line with most of the rest of Europe. The blood/alcohol limit for aviation personnel is lower than that in shipping or on roads or railways, but reflects the Joint Aviation Requirements Commercial Air Transportation (JAR-OPS), adopted by the Joint Aviation Authorities (JAA) in 1996. The UK's adoption of this limit was intended to further the harmonisation of standards across Europe.
Before the 2003 Act, the relevant legislation was contained in the Air Navigation Order. In very brief summary, the new Act created an additional offence of being over the prescribed limit, introduced breath-testing and changed the wording of the offence relating to being impaired by alcohol.

Is there a problem?
If you mean in terms of flight safety, no.

Is the industry successfully policing itself?
Yes, IMHO.

The Royal Brunei and Emirates pilots sentenced to prison terms. Both had (please correct me if I'm wrong) BACs not only in excess of the flying limit but high enough to be considered legally drunk.
I can only comment on the Royal Brunei pilot who was dealt with in the UK. I represented him and am familiar with the facts of the case.
He was prosecuted for being over the legal limit.
There was no evidence that he was 'drunk'.
Had there been, he would have been prosecuted for the alternative and more serious offence.
There is no such thing in UK law as "legally" drunk, although evidence may be given which, if accepted, entitles a court to find as a fact that someone was drunk. I mention that only to correct your misunderstanding. It has no relevance to the Royal Brunei case for the reason I've explained.

Give me some sensible answers and put my mind at rest!
I have no idea why your mind isn't already at rest.
There is no evidence that alcohol is a serious problem in terms of flight safety. ie The stats show that the chance of an aircraft crash/incident being caused, or contributed to, by a pilot's ability being impaired by alcohol is so remote that there's no sensible reason to be worried.
If you've actually read this thread, as you say you have, then perhaps you missed the link to the result of a study into whether there is a problem. Given the tone of your posts, I think you would have found the conclusions reassuring.

If you want something flight safety related to be worried about, I suggest you read up about pilot fatigue.

FL

mr. vicodan

30th Jan 2007, 12:18

I just started reading this thread and I have to commend Lyle on his frankness and honesty. Not many people could own up to this type of behavior, take responsibility for it and then use it as a positive experience to mentor others.

I myself am struggling through this addiction and I can't seem to stop from drinking no matter how much I tell myself I need to. I've never had any life changing events that others have had that spurn them into recovery, like getting arrested or something. I have a spotless record, a loving wife and wonderful kids. I have no reason to get bombed nightly and yet I do almost every evening. I'm 32, have been drinking since I was 16 and I see the old alcoholics at the bar and realize I am heading right into their bar stool once they pass away. I'm not 20 anymore, not in college drinking with my buddies before a game or on a Friday evening. Drinking isn't fun anymore. I don't have a beer to take it easy. I drink to get drunk, to feel something more than what I feel when I am sober...which is something I can't exactly put my finger on.

I'd blame being on the road alot, in fact I have used that excuse before to justify drinking alone in a hotel room or at a hotel bar by myself, but I now understand it doesn't matter where I am, who I am with and what I am doing...I constantly crave having a drink and once I get the first one, I need to the second and then the third...etc. I am up to about 12 beers just to catch a buzz and another 6 after that to feel good, happy, relaxed.

I often wonder how things got this bad and who I could blame. Well the answer is no one except myself for being so weak to let this one thing have total control over me. I also worry what kind of example I am setting for my children. Obviously not a good one.

Anyway, once again Lyle thanks for the perspective.

J.O.

30th Jan 2007, 22:23

Mr. Vicodan:

I would encourage you to make contact with your local chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous. I'd also encourage you to find a physician who specializes in addiction treatment. In the end though, it is you who must decide deep down that you want to get better.

Little Boy

31st Jan 2007, 11:40

Flying Lawyer

Thanks for the information, at least some of my questions have been answered.

Although "put my mind at rest" may have been a little tongue in cheek I do consider it to be a serious issue and agree that pilot fatigue is certainly a more serious one. Nevertheless the alcohol issue is within the realm of respopnsibilty of individuals and does not rest solely with employers and legislation as does the fatigue issue.

Flying Lawyer

31st Jan 2007, 12:33

I do consider it to be a serious issue
That's the main difference between us.
I don't.

Another is that you base your opinion on hunch whereas I base mine on facts.
If you find evidence (current or historic) that there is a serious problem of accidents being caused by pilots being impaired by alcohol, no doubt you'll post it. (I assume if you'd found any so far, you would have said what it is.)
Even if you go back many years, and even include 'suspected', you'll find very few - a minute fraction of the millions of flights each year.

Frankly, I can't help but wonder how much (if any) research/reading you've done into what you regard as a 'serious issue' before describing it as such.

FL

flyingbug

31st Jan 2007, 13:50

Quote: by flyinglawyer:

According to his Profile, he's a ship's navigator and student PPL.

Ironically, he lists "drinking" amongst his 'interests'.

BRILLIANT!!

FL, you make me laugh (and talk sense!).
FB

niknak

31st Jan 2007, 14:21

F Lawyer

I have the utmost respect for most of your postings - as you say, they are nearly always based on black and white facts, but with alcohol problems, that's where your argument falls to pieces.
Alcoholics and people who are affected by alcohol but may not realise it or wish to admit it, but they are very good at hiding the facts, in fact the worse the condition becomes the better they get at self denial, in fact on the same basis, they would probably whip your butt in any court of law, (I don' mean to be flippant, but I suspect it's a good possibility).

Your assertion re accidents related to alcohol are probably perfectly correct, it's a matter of statistics - will you get caught?
The odds are probably the same as winning a substantial sum, (but not the first prize), on whichever lottery, slot machine or drinking establishment you partake in.

Flying Lawyer

1st Feb 2007, 18:35

niknak
Thank you for your generous comment.

I didn’t say my postings “are nearly always based on black and white facts.” I’ve been around far too long to see things in b&w.
And, if I may say so, that’s a little strong coming from the very person who started this thread with: “I sincerely hope that he serves the full sentance, gets the help he needs to accept the gravity of his problem, and never, ever flys again,”
I can’t find anything other than a black and white approach in that assertion.
Nor in your revised version: “Perhaps my asertion that the Emirates pilot should never fly again was over the top, but I dont regret the fact that he'll probably never find another job with a major airline” - unless apparently not minding if he eventually finds a job with a non-major airline was meant as some sort of compromise.
(I’m sorry, but the logic of that distinction, if there is any, escapes me.)

The only time you adopted a non b&w approach was when you wrote this in the ATC forum (just a few days after your comment about the Emirates pilot):A colleague ... on his way to work today, (3pm start), ….. minor shunt ….. observed by the local plod. He was breathlysed. He'd had a bit to drink yesterday but stopped at around 6pm, had a big meal and solid sleep until 10am, nonetheless, he still registered on the machine as having alcohol in his system, albeit below the legal driving limit. Plod asked his occupation, which he gave without thinking and said Officer immediately and strongly suggested he turned around, went home, and phoned in sick. Thumbs up to Plod. :ok:Perhaps it’s just a coincidence you happened to adopt a less b&w approach when it was a fellow ATCO and not a pilot?

“but with alcohol problems, that's where your argument falls to pieces.”
Does it? :confused:
My argument is that, despite what you correctly say about alcoholics often being able to disguise their problem, and despite the possibility that there may be pilots with alcohol levels above the zero (or virtually zero) limit who escape undetected, there is no serious flight safety problem.

You don’t seem too keen on evidence; people with strongly held preconceived beliefs rarely are if the evidence contradicts their unsupported claims. IMHO, looking at the facts is not a bad place to start, especially before expressing a strong view on a subject.

Despite what you and others who share your view wish to believe, there is not, and there never has been (since the advent of aviation accident investigation and since records were kept), evidence of a problem of accidents being caused by pilots’ ability to fly being impaired by alcohol.
I am not arguing it’s never happened.
I am not arguing every pilot who’s ever flown over the limit has been caught, or will be caught.
I am not arguing there should be no legal limits.
I am not arguing it's acceptable to fly while impaired by alcohol.
I am not arguing it's acceptable to break the law.
I am arguing that accidents caused by pilots being impaired by alcohol are so rare (since records began) in relation to the millions of miles flown safely every year (since records began) that it cannot sensibly or reasonably be regarded as a flight safety problem.
How has my argument fallen to pieces? :confused:

“Your assertion re accidents related to alcohol are probably perfectly correct, it's a matter of statistics - will you get caught?
The odds are probably the same as winning a substantial sum, (but not the first prize), on whichever lottery, slot machine or drinking establishment you partake in.”
Let's consider that proposition.
Whether caught in an accident or caught by the authorities, either way, you can only be 'caught' (in this context) if you're doing something wrong, just as you can only win a gamble if you gamble.
So, for your analogy to be correct, there would have to be an enormous number of pilots regularly flying over the limit. (Gambling that they won't be caught.)
Is that what you believe/assume?
Even if (we've all at least heard anecdotes) some pilots were more inclined to take a chance years ago, my impression (no evidence, just chatting to pilot friends) is that there has been a change of attitude in more recent years towards drinking/flying - long before the law was changed to bring breath-testing into aviation. If that's correct, it would be consistent with the gradual but significant change it attitude towards drink driving.

BTW, re your ATCO colleague:
Nothing to drink after 6pm, big meal, then slept it off until 10am the next day, yet still over the aviation limit almost 21 hours after his last drink.
Sounds like quite a bender. (Assuming he told you the truth.)
If it was a one-off, it was a big one.
Or perhaps it wasn't a one-off and he's disguising his problem, in the way you correctly described alcoholics often do?
"Thumbs up to Plod. :ok:", you say, because the policeman saved him from the risk of getting caught at work, being sent to prison and losing his job.
That's curious.
Given your views expressed in this thread, shouldn't you be wishing (in the interests of those whose lives depend upon ATCOs) that he'd been caught upon arrival at work?

FL

(Edit)
Apologies for the length of the post. It's turned out to be much longer than I intended when I started.

egbt

1st Feb 2007, 21:36

FL
Would I be correct in thinking you are only referring to professional airline / military pilots in your last couple of posts?

I do recall a number on instances over the last few years of PPL’s or more frequently student PPL’s, perhaps with only a few hours, becoming the focus of accident/ incident reports by the FAA. Sometime also "taking and flying away"?

IMHO that is a problem, although different from the main thrust of this thread, and I’m not sure how it can be fixed - other than keeping the keys secure!

As usual, good posts and I’m sure you are right in the generality.

(PPL, Sober when flying)

swordsman

2nd Feb 2007, 07:33

FL wise words.
Tiredness is much more of a threat than alcohool.It has the same effect and is more widespread, causes more incidents and reduces the performance of pilots.When is the CAA going to make it mandatory for a third pilot on all transatlantic operations like the US companies do and overhaul flight time limitations to stop pilots sometimes going across the pond and back up to 7 times a month ?

Flying Lawyer

2nd Feb 2007, 10:48

egbt

Yes, I was.

FL

CFC

4th Feb 2007, 20:55

mr vicodan,

Good luck...and well done for sharing the 'truth'.

expatula

6th Feb 2007, 03:49

Excuse me guys, time for a commercial break!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQLp3Z7jUm8

Enjoy!

olliew

7th Feb 2007, 13:36

It would appear that the "change of tack" of the previous post has caused a bit of a lull in what has, to date and in my opinion, been a highly constructive thread. Has anyone got any further input or has the problem of alcohol(ism) in aviation suddenly disappeared?

expatula

7th Feb 2007, 14:19

I was getting drunk already reading all the posts, so the video was meant to be an ice breaker!

Ok guys, commercial break is over! Back to the original topic. Hik! :p

olliew

7th Feb 2007, 14:34

Thank you everyone for your wisdom. I bow out.

carholme

7th Feb 2007, 14:36

Ladies/Gentlemen;
I have been in aviation for 45 years and sober for 27. AA was the lifesaver for me and has given me the last good 27 years of my life and career. I won't go into a long story about my situation but a few of the posts here took me back to the days in the uK when I would walk shakily into a pub and the waiter would have a large neat gin sitting behind one of the posts at the bar. He did this knowing that I would spill half of the drink if I tried to lift it. I thought I was so clever as I kept looking around to see if anyone was watching and then bent my head down to suck the drink from the glass.
I feared everything but most of all that somebody would figure me out. The trouble was that they already had me well figured, long before I sought help.
The day I left the UK for Canada after being kicked out by my wife was the worst day of my life, not because she kicked me out, rather that as I was getting ready to board one of the last Laker DC10s to New York, I had to decide whether or not I could make it to the a/c without entering the pub. I knew I would die if I didn't have a drink and knew also what would happen if I did.
I made the flight without a drink and I shall never forget to the day I do die, how well I was looked after by the stews on that trip. Somehow they seemed to know of my predicament and it was their kindness on that flight that allowed me to make it to my mother's home in Canada. That was Valentine's Day, 1980.
My single greatest fear during the latter part of my drinking was what if I have to stop drinking. I knew I had to find some way to stop and yet, what was I going to do when they took away the very last friend I had in the world.
Remembering what the stewardesses had done for me on the flight, I stood in the airport in Toronto overnight waiting for a flight home the next morning. I stood in front of a bar and watched people drinking inside and tears ran down my face for what seemed like hours. I was so completely ashamed of myself for my inability to deal with this problem, so afraid to quit. The kindness of those girls was what got me through the night without a drink.
I got in touch with AA with the help of my Mum after a terrible bout with the DTs and they gave me my life, career and family back.
I was one of the lucky ones and as much as I am grateful to AA, I again will never forget those stewardesses.
As one who suffered many blackouts while drinking, I have encountered others who have related tales of flights from city to city with absolutely no recall. It may sound strange to some but the people reading this who may have a problem will know exactly what I am talking about.
There is a similar thread on Av Canada relating to the use of marijuana (sp) in aviation today and I see that nothing ever changes, it just remains the same.
I sincerely hope for all of you that may find you have a problem, that you get the help you need and that you too come to experience life without that irrational fear. I was addicted to alcohol but I was afraid of living.
Regards
carholme

LProuse

11th Feb 2007, 11:25

I've sent you a private msg.

Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse

J.O.

24th Feb 2007, 18:30

Take a look at this monologue from Craig Ferguson, where he speaks on his past problems as an alcoholic. He's living proof that there is help and there is hope.

Jeff

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7bbaRyDLMvA

ksbress

1st Mar 2007, 16:02

Lyle, Carholme,

I can relate...I have had problems related to alcohol my entire life but never put 2 and 2 together until I was completely out of control of my choice to not drink. Anyone that has been there knows the unbearable horror of alcoholism. While flying for the Navy, I was arrested for DWI and put through a program and given periodic urinalysis testing to ensure that I was complying. The Navy considered me a "problem drinker" so my skipper didn't give much attention to the fact that as soon as I was transfered I went right back to my old ways. Booze has been a millstone that I have carried and it has caused much grief. I finaly began to get health problems as well as blackouts where 3 and 4 day periods are completely lost to memory. I haven't flown since 1992 and my last career as a stock trader along with my perpetually drunk or hung state has gotten me into legal problems that may result in a felony (not alcohol related). I finaly went to rehab on my own and at the ripe age of 46 I am going to try to get back into flying. I will have to start from square one with the licenses but believe that it is all still in me. Of course ATP is not in the cards but a small local puddle jumper I would consider an accomlishment considering where I have sunk to. I agree that alcoholism is a condition that must be managed but I also believe that people should be given a second chance. Lyle, you are something of a public figure and an inspiration since you have some similar experiences. Does anyone know if I am correct in my research that one may obtain FAA licenses with a felony? Any information or inspiration would be appreciated. Sorry if I sound like I am whining but some of the previous posts just rang so true that I felt that my gut spilling would be well empathetically recieved.

KB

carholme

3rd Mar 2007, 12:27

KB
I can offer no opinion on the felony situation and would suggest you contact the FAA directly.
When I managed to put the cork in the bottle, I was 34 years old and will be 60 this month. At 34 years old I was given a second chance. I was approached by an employer who knew me and offered a position with only one stipulation, that if I took a drink, I would be gone. It wasn't presented in harsh terms, it was just a fact. They wanted me to work there but knowing my past history, they had to put it on the table.
Only six months sober, the glow was wearing off and the reality of living was starting to set in and I took the challenge and literally, one day at a time.
It became one of the greatest experiences of my life. In a senior position with the company, who knew very little about alcoholism, I will never get over how supportive they were in many strange ways. From the floor sweepers to the President, they would ask how things were going, if I was attending meetings, if everything was OK, etc.
It was all very subtle and in a strange way, next to AA. that gang helped to save my life. Many of the people in that company had booze problems of their own and I never interfered in that, I had my own problems to deal with trying to stay sober. What they did provide was an opportunity for me to get back into a society that suffered from all kinds of problems, all kinds of joys and sorrows, flight and technical problems and people problems. They allowed me to be one of them again.
Do we deserve a second chance? Of course everybody does but my experience has taught me that it is not a case of whether I deserve it or not, it is a case of staying sober one day at a time. As long as I am able to do this, chances will present themselves as they have these many years.
I am one of the most fortunate people alive for I was given a second chance to have my life back and to be able to make choices.
I hope that you are able to get some form of license back but even if you can't and you are still sober, you have to ask yourself if you have already been given that second chance.
I wish you every success.
Regards
carholme

ksbress

3rd Mar 2007, 16:56

"There are those of us that have and there are those of us that will." This cliche is true for many things in life but none more so than alcohol. To personify it, it is like a skillful conman that appeals to you when you are desperate and weak. I to used booze as a coping mechanism but in reality the escape doesn't fix the situatuions it only makes more of them. Until I came to grips with my own problem I didn't realize how many others were in the same trap. The ravages of alcoholism run broad and deep in our society. No wonder it was outlawed more than once throughout history. Thanks for the encouragement that you offer through your personal experience and I hope I will be able to find some small measure of your good fortune. I am at the point that you were in that I will not screw-up any chance I get to get my life back on track regardless of the challenges. Now that I can think claerly again I am amazed that I let things get so far out of control but that is the nature of the booze beast. I just hope that now as I try to get back into society that people will look past the "me" on paper and see that I am worth a chance. Having to always explain the stupid things that I have done as a drunk is not going to be easy but what choice is there?

Beaver diver

5th Mar 2007, 19:29

This thread has the most views out of all. Did you ever wondered why?
The answer lies inside you my friend....

bushpig

7th Mar 2007, 06:15

I've been there as well, lost the family, done all the silly stuff. Given myself all the good reasons and excuses as to why I needed to drink etc I don't now and haven't for several years. I'm only putting in my two cents worth so anyone who is in grip or cycle of alcohol use (or any other addiction for that matter), can hear it from yet one more person. You can get past it but you will need help. It is not something to treat lightly and I believe it definitely is an illness. I took some convincing of this some years ago (even though a user myself) until a counsellor explained that any serious illness falls into several categories including...life threatening (can cause death, your and others), physically debilitating, requires help to cure, severely effects family and others around you....there was more. I still wasn't totally convinced. However now when I look back on the madness of it and the things I did and how I justified myself to myself..well I need no convincing.

I voluntarily got away from aviation for a while. I had been in it earlier in ATC and later as a pilot for most of my life. I went back to college studying something quite different but a subject I had always had a very strong involvement and interest in anyway. While I don't advocate that as a necessity for myself or anybody else it is the route I chose. I also had an excellent Doctor as well who although not having been an addict herself (and they are usually the best counsellors) was terrific. I also had a great AA group. When I started going to that one I couldn't even keep a cup of coffee half full my shakes were so bad.

You can get out of it. Take responsibility for yourself by asking for and getting help. Make it a project to complete or overcome, one of the steps in life that has been dealt to you. But get help, it is there.

swilly300

11th Mar 2007, 03:53

I am new to this site and this is my first post. I am a Private Pilot, got my ticket at 18 in 1976, 40.0 hrs, not that I was that good, but unique- 40.0 hrs? Every pilot I talk to got theirs at 40.1 or 45.1, or 50.1, If anybody got theirs at 40.0, please let me know. OK, drunk flying. I got my training at Ohio University and it was well known as a "party school". I think the Aviation Dept was top notch, and I feel I had the best training. One night, a pilot and friend, met me at one of the many uptown bars. I was well into the evening, he had -0 drinks-. He says "lets go flying". No way, 12hrs from bottle to throttle. He said, "thats why I going to take you up tonight." OK, lets go. I could T/O and fly the C-152 just fine, but when it came to the landing. I was way off, maybe 30' high on the flare (ground fog). My friend saved the day and took over the controls (that is why we went up). I was embarrased. I have had some bad landings, but that would have been the worst. I learned that night, drinking and flying don't mix well. We tied down the plane, and then we had some beers together. He now is a most senior pilot for a major airline. I drink, and I fly, but not at the same time. Should my little 1/2 hr flight be part of our training. I don't think so, but maybe. It changed me. I cannot do both at the same time. I can fly, or I can drink. I do both, but not at the same time. My opinion.

TheMonk

17th Mar 2007, 16:03

NikNak
Some of you may have noticed that this post was deleted, (by me) then ressurected by the Moderator Heliport.
My reason for deleting was because I recieved a number of abusive emails from sources which I've been unable to identify, directly linked to my original comments.
I had - perhaps rather naievly - put my family email address on my public profile, and the emails were opened by my young children, the nature of the abuse in the messages was, in this modern world, not entirely beyond their understanding and enough to cause them considerable distress.
I know that there are a small minority of mentally challenged individuals on any such forum who partake in such activities, but my kids don't.
In future, at least have the balls to abuse me by PM - then I can find out who you are!
NikNak, if you're that concerned with your kids reading the family emails, why didn't you just change your password? You want us to show simpathy for your family while you showed none for the family of the pilot in question?

olliew

22nd Mar 2007, 07:59

You say that every kind of belief prevents the understanding of relationship. Yet I believe in a higher power and equally believe that higher power has taken away my obsession with alcohol. Am I therefor to abandon that belief and if so what of my alcoholism. I have not had the desire to drink for eighteen months and I do not want to return to the personal hell that drink took me to so what of my relationship with my higher power? I don't understand your message!

J.O.

22nd Mar 2007, 12:40

michael744:

You quote one man's non-scientific opinion and accept it as fact. May I suggest you look at some other resources for an alternate (scientific) view of the problem.

Some basic facts about alcohol:

http://www.utexas.edu/research/asrec/alcoholfacts.html

The science of addiction:

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/units/addiction/

and another:

http://healthgate.partners.org/browsing/browseContent.asp?fileName=14185.xml&title=The%20Science%20of%20Addiction

There are literally hundreds more. I too love Google!

carholme

22nd Mar 2007, 13:15

Ladies/Gentlemen;
Please remember that this is my own experience and opinion.
I am constantly amazed at the "Science of Alcoholism". I can assure you that after all these years, I can very well remember my last bout with the bottle and my first few days of sobriety.
If somebody had offered me any of the definitions of my problem through scientific explanation or any other means, I would probably be dead by now.
What I was seeking was hope, desperate hope from somebody who would understand me. Deep within myself somewhere, was my own understanding that I was in serious trouble and I couldn't have given a tinkers damn about the reasons why. I had already tried all that and drank my way through it.
What I needed and found was another person who had the same problem as I did and could help me find a way out of it and get the monkey off my back.
I believed the people I met, gingerly at first, as I could relate to them, they seemed to have had the same problems as I was having. Hope was at last there and I could see by the way they were living and the stories they were telling, that they were just like me.
If science were to invent a pill today that would allow me to start drinking again, do you think I would attempt it. Not on your nellie. Living was my problem and I drank to escape it and these people showed me how to live again.
Remember the old adage, "KISS", Keep it simple, stupid!.
For those of you whether it is flight crews, FAs, mechanics, rampies or whatever, and you are experiencing that irrational fear that is driving your every moment, find another person to talk to who may have had the same problem. Even at first, it may not solve your problem but it will spark something inside you that will arise again when needed and may prompt you to get the help you need.
I wish I could crawl into this screen and offer each one of you who may be in trouble, a little bit of what I have. I am in the land of the living again and so happy to be here. My life has all kinds of problems today but they pale in comparison to what I had before the cork went in the bottle.
Best wishes to all,
carholme

J.O.

22nd Mar 2007, 13:42

carholme:

I agree completely. But non-addicts who dismiss addiction as being a character flaw, while ignoring the chemical realities of the brain and addiction, do a great disservice to people like yourself who've been there. I am quite sure that you never "wanted" to be there, or that a weakness of self got you there. The inability to regain control that cries for help and understanding comes from the addiction, not the other way around.

olliew

23rd Mar 2007, 16:53

Michael744

Thank you for your reply and your offer to discuss this off forum. Perhaps my feelings, beliefs and understanding of this topic (if limited) are relevant as I am both a recovering alcoholic and a pilot who flew commercially for some years so for that reason I would be more than happy to discuss any issues 'on' forum in the hope that it might help others.
I know that without the help which I reveived from AA I would never have been able to put down the bottle and I firmly believe that it was a higher power that led me to AA. AA in turn enabled me to not just believe in a higher power but moreover to have faith in that power. I have also learnt that, for some, alcohol sets off a reaction within the body which in turn leads to both an obsession and further craving. When this reaction is strong enough an alcoholic loses control of his power over alcohol and thus begins a decline that for many can only end in death. If a belief in a higher power (and for that some might read God) can relieve anyone of their powerlessness over alcohol then who am I to question their understanding.
I will not bore you with the gory details of where my alcoholism took me but I can assure you that thanks to my Faith and to the love and kindness of AA I need never drink again and therefore need not repeat the harm that I have, in my times of drinking, done to others.

Ollie

Chuck Ellsworth

23rd Mar 2007, 17:05

I try and have as little input here as possible, but I must address this idea that being an alcholic is a character flaw my thoughts are this.

Having been throught the alcolism nightmare and found my way out of it I am quite happy with being able to deal with my character flaw sober, rather than drunk.

Chuck E.

Tigs2

31st Mar 2007, 02:54

There are some amazing posts on this thread, ones that have taken me hand in hand with you to dark places i never wanted to go again, but ones i had to go again.

I was talking to a very famous Psychologist once and asked the proffessor to give me some advice. He said he had been paid his entire life for very little, because the best advice a man will ever get, is the advice he gives to himself, but in order to do that he needs a 'big pair of ears on listen mode' to effect the desired outcome.

I am convinced that this thread has allowed many people that experience, and for many of us, perhaps a moment to reflect on how our own stories are, in a comforting way, so similar to others. We prove here that we are not alone. I read some of the posts and think' that has happened to me, why didn't i have the courage to write it?' Maybe one day.

MODs please never let this stickey be deleted, it is an outlet for many of us and also for some of our finest.

carholme

31st Mar 2007, 22:06

Michael 744;

Sir;

I do not want to get into a discussion with you about the merits of some fancy writings in a book. I am an alcoholic and I can only tell my story but until I was able to admit that I had a problem, I didn't stand a chance for survival. I know I am an alcoholic and for me to mess around with my thinking that maybe I am not is the most dangerous and ludicrous thing I have ever heard. This is like I said before about science and the pill. Do you think if science invented a pill that would relieve me from my problem that I would start to drink again? Not a chance and for me personally, I have to stay away from this long winded,flowery writing of yours.I don't know if you have experienced the effect of alcohol consumption and what it did to people like me but I would be surprized to meet many people that talked themselves out of it. My experience and recovery on a daily basis has shown me that I am an alcoholic and unless I accept that, every waking moment of my life, I and the thinking I am capable of sometimes can risk the sobriety I have enjoyed these years. I for one am happy to have some understanding of my problem and know that I am not smart enough to risk a good thing that saved my life.

carholme

witchiepoo

6th Apr 2007, 07:54

...so back to the topic at hand, anyone know any more about the Danish FO, currently going through the union process after being sacked for his inability to get on with collegues. after asking the FC if he could smell alcohol in the cockpit.....coincidence?? :=

derbyshire

7th Apr 2007, 15:33

Hi Carholme,

We share an AA birthday year; many, many days at a time! I wish I had your articulacy and have much enjoyed your posts. Thankyou.

stilton

9th Apr 2007, 23:52

Mr prouse had an amazing story with an incredible ending.
A shame his First officer and Flight engineer did not receive the same consideration.
Their welfare was his responsibility and he hung them out to dry.

J.O.

10th Apr 2007, 01:05

I believe the F/O and F/E were adults when that fateful night occurred. Lyle didn't lift the glass to their mouths; they were with him all the way. They simply didn't choose the same path that Lyle did to get back on the line. What he did to put his life right took more courage than you'll ever know.

stilton

10th Apr 2007, 02:33

It would have not taken much more 'courage' for 'lyle' to have had the decen cy to tell the other two pilots BEFORE they took off, 'the morning after'

That a representative of the FAA (unfortunately poorly trained and out of his depth in this scenario) had approached him and warned him not to fly that morning.

His behaviour the night before was stupid, disregarding his crews welfare totally abrogates his responsibilty as a captain.

Solely based on this, I have no respect for the idiot, but contempt for his selfishness and conceit
.
You would think he was the only one in the cockpit.

dudduddud

10th Apr 2007, 11:12

"A shame his First officer and Flight engineer did not receive the same consideration.
Their welfare was his responsibility and he hung them out to dry."

No they did not recieve the same consideration, they recieved even more. They chose to remain free on appeal (which they lost?) rather than taking it with the same courage and dignity as Lyle.

He did not hang them out to dry, they hung themselves in every way.

saudipc-9

11th Apr 2007, 03:20

My reason for deleting was because I recieved a number of abusive emails from sources which I've been unable to identify, directly linked to my original comments

They were probably drunk when they sent them:=

golden06

11th Apr 2007, 12:29

i think this argument has two well founded sides to it. You all make relatively pertinent points. however, i have a more simplistic way of looking situations like these. Life is like two escalators, one going up and one going down. I think we've all been on both at different stages in our lives. It's my belief that those going up have a responsibility to help those going down, rather than turn their backs to them and watch them fail. If this respected and experienced pilot slipped up, it could have happened to the best of us. I mean in fairness it's not as if he planned on making such a mistake, so why hold it against him? If anything imagine how careful he'll be if he ever did get his license back. Although you might say i'm naive (I'm not a pilot yet), I think people deserve second chance, with the right help and rehabilitation. It's so easy to make judging remarks when you feel invincible. But wait till something happens to you, and other people turn their backs on you rather than give a helping hand... anyway that's what i think, I'm not going to get into an argument/debate with someone over it.

J.O.

11th Apr 2007, 14:55

Well said, golden06. I think you have the right idea. Good luck on getting past "yet".

Tipperary

14th Apr 2007, 09:53

Reputation is an idle and most false imposition; oft got without merit, and lost without deserving.

Othello, II. iii.

Bridge69

14th Apr 2007, 10:08

He should be dealt with appropriately - a life ban and imprisonment are not the answers. Imprisonment should be to protect the public, not to punish. As he is grounded (and should be for 5 years or so in my humble opinion) the public are protected. A sentEnce (note the coorect spelling, NikNak) of 300 hours community service would give hime time to reflect, and supply so tangible benefit to society. After that, a compulsory course on alchohol abuse might be in order.

LProuse

16th Apr 2007, 13:47

Dear Sir,

I rarely check back and read any of the posts here but I just came across yours in which you say I "hung the other pilots out to dry," and "was responsible for their welfare," ad nauseum.

Arrogance and grandiosity often get in the way of fact checking before spouting off, and you provide a great example of that.

You seem to imply that I somehow kept information from the other two crewmembers about the FAA inspector, along with some other assumptions that are so confusing I can't fully understand them. And all of your opinions, which you seem to convert to fact, are erroneous.

First, let's talk about responsibility. It seems fashionable in our current social system to always look to others for blame, deciding that our troubles are the result of he, she, them, they, or it. One of the first tenets of recovery from alcoholism is acceptance of personal responsibility and being accountable, understanding that our problems are of our own making - and not someone else's. And that applies to everyone, not merely alcoholics. We're a nation of victims, always blaming others and remaining victims because we refuse to take responsibility. It's just plain easier to blame someone else than to look in the mirror, where the problem really is.

Using your "blame system," I suppose I should blame the events that transpired on the First Officer. I was peacefully sleeping in my room when he called and suggested that we go to the Speak Easy for some drinks and hors d'oeuvres...so it must have been HIS fault. Never mind that I made a decision that I was responsible for - to go.

Furthermore, using your blame system, it must have been the Second Officer's fault we got into trouble because he mouthed off to some patrons and drew attention to us...never mind that I made a decision to sit there, drink, and be part of the whole thing. I had the First Officer assist the S/O out of the bar and attempted to repair the damage. As the evening progressed I added to the difficulty as well - and I accept that.

I have no one to "blame" but myself. I am responsible for my decisions, and no one else. Nor am I responsible for your decisions, the First Officer's decisions, or the Second Officer's. They didn't put a gun to my head, force me to go, and threaten to shoot me if I didn't drink; nor did anyone do that to them.

Prior to this incident, NO pilots had ever been arrested and publicly foisted into the media limelight around the world...and there had certainly been many, many situations of pilots drinking too much and flying the next day. It had gone on for years...and all of us know that.

The three of us were involved in a common tragedy. We went off the edge of a cliff together...but from THAT moment on we were on our own. We fell separately, landed separately, and had to pick ourselves up separately. They had choices to make and I had choices to make. I made mine, put one foot in front of the other, lived one day at a time, and as the years passed I watched miracles occur. None came quickly and none came easily.

They were on their own path, following their own journey, and were in charge of their decisions;and they did the best they could just as I did.

There is a helluva lot that you don't know. One such thing is that I made a deeply heartfelt and impassioned attempt to get the First Officer back to Northwest. He was the least culpable among us and was - and is - a class act and a gentleman. There were reasons that he wasn't able to return and I wasn't responsible for any of them. The Second Officer lied to the MEC chairman when he attempted to return to NWA and ALPA dropped their support. And I'm not resposible for the S/O's actions, either.

I would suggest that you consider, just a teensy bit, that you don't have all the facts, weren't there, and don't know what is or what isn't. It would behoove you to remember the old saying: "A closed mouth gathers no feet."

Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse

Ysatis

21st May 2007, 11:05

I found this interesting article from the flight safety foundation, avition medecine, titled "WHEN BOTTLE MEETS THROTTLE". In it, statements about how ICAO supposedly deals with alcoholism among pilots are stunning...
http://208.37.5.10/asw/sept06/asw_sept06_p32-36.pdf

The problem about alcool in a cockpit should not be analysed at a personal level, nor should we draw conclusions based on generalism. But more importantly alcool problems do not start, nor end, in a cockpit, far from that.
Alcool amoung pilots IS A PROBLEM, and it all starts with
-Medical exams: I do not know about the US, but in Europe, in Africa, and in Asia, the medical exams are jokes.
-Random checks: again, in all continents above mentionned, they are non existant.
-Airline responsability: I strongly believe airlines have more responsability than just writting in an Ops manual rules concerning alcool... I personnaly know so many colleagues having serious alcool problems, and never ever did I hear about mesures taken by any airline, pro/actively, to prevent alcoholic personal to be in command of an airline aircraft (not being drunk does not mean the person is not an alcoholic!!).
-Culture: it seems to me that for most anglo/saxe, drinking is a proof of virility. Again, any heavy drinking habit is easily detectable by medical check, so why is it that nothing is done to tackle the problem (an alcoholic can only heal through abstinence, according to medical studies).
-Last but not least, ICAO: in that article (http://208.37.5.10/asw/sept06/asw_sept06_p32-36.pdf), you can read that according to ICAO "alcoholism amoung crewmembers is relatively infrequent, and taht less than 1 pilot in every 5000 worldwide loses his/her license each year because of problems associated with alcoolim...". Well, that proves what I was trying to develop, the problem is not tackled seriously. My airline has around 5000 pilots, and I personnaly know let say... 100 pilots that have serious alcool problems, that are by medical definition alcoholics.
Now, as a pilot, we have the choice. Let the media trash a pilot now and then because he/she was caught drunk or with a alcool level in his/her blood that is illegal while on duty. Or should we rather start to solve our problem by accepting that there is a problem, and more importantly impose on the ICAO that mesures are taken at all level to eradicate alcoholism amoung the pilots (and not just drunk pilots to show up at work).