EASA Conversion Type Ratings

[fastbuck]

:\ :( I would like to share my views about the BCAR to EASA Type Rating Conversion. I am 44 years old Malaysian born, did my basic in Aer Lingus, got my first 747/RB211 type Rating in 1985 with MAS went on to get B747-300/400 with various engs& Twin Otter DHC6 Type Airframes, did 14 years with Emirates where i got A300/A310/A330/A343/A345 B777/200/300.
spent 2 years at Transaer Dublin where i was trained on A320-V2500. I am currently with Aer Lingus. Thats a total of 26 years, 21 as a certifying LAE. I have held BA/MH/EK/ authorisations & have certified BA/MH/EK/SV/KU/SQ/TK/MK/CI/AF/BALAIR/ & numerous other airlines which I cant list at the moment. I have an FAA A & P, UK CAA A & c LWTR, UAE GCAA A & C Type, Irish Dept of transport Airframes & Malaysia DCA LWTR & Type Airframes( now expired).
Most of my training was conducted in Boeing/Aeroformation(now airbus Training)/GE.
I have moved to Ireland to our family home & I am currently employed by Aer Lingus in Maintenance Control. I do not have any certifying authority at present. During the conversion process i was given a B1 & C Category. with limitation 1 & 9. The only Type Rating acceptable to the CAA was the BA conducted training on 747-200/300 Rb211, Everything else was discounted as non acceptable. I have already made one trip to the CAA, wrote letters & emails without success.
I am totally disgusted by the way EASA & the UK CAA have just dumped all my years & ratings just like that. I am currently engaging a UK solicitor with what little savings I have left because I have no other choice. If there are anymore engineers out there who may have a similar plight please email me on my home email: [email protected]
For those who you who I may have met or will meet in future, my full name is Andy Inderjit Singh Hullon. I was born in Malaysia & currently reside in Dublin, Ireland.
Seasons Greetings to All.

[spannersatcx]

Them's the rules I'm afraid, I am in the same situation, what can you do, nothing.:mad:

I did a 340 course with CX and on it was a BA guy who was looking after our a/c somewhere. He was issued with an approval by a JAR145 approved organisation (BA) he got the type rating on his EASA 66 on conversion from a BCAR. I did not as mine was only issued by a HKAR 145 organisation, same course to ATA 104 level 3 but not recognised by JAR/EASA/CAA.

[BAe146s make me cry]

Absolutely anything can be completed by the UKCAA at present.
The application simply has to be endorsed by your company's QA dept.

Virgin Atlantic Airways have an employee based in New York.
He held an IAA Part 66 CAT A AMEL and an FAA 'P' licence only.
He very recently has been converted to Part 66 B1.1 restricted
by the UKCAA.

As stated, anything can be done if the price is right,face fits
or a upon seemingly simple whim, right Mr O? :mad:

BAe146??:{ :{

[spannersatcx]

So are you saying if VS QA endorsed my application to add say the 340 course that I did with CX then I could add that as a type to my EASA licence?

I think the problem comes when you look at where and when the training was doone, remember they won't retrospectively endorse a course (including a manufacturers course).

Even though the courses were done to 'the industry' standard ATA104 level 3 it isn't recognised by the CAA/EASA as it HAS to be done by a part 147 approved training school.:ugh:

[bvcu]

Have been through the same process , No way legally around it at present with CAA. My time with EK was certifying JAR registered a/c with EK's 145 approval but still not able to put on licence. I also did 777 courses with BA/LH /AF personnel who were all able to put types on their licences because their employer was approved at the time !! How could one certify any work on BA/AF and Swiss with JAR145 approval number issued by UK CAA and then not be able to put this on licence !!!

[fastbuck]

Good to hear from you all. At the moment the CAA have buried their heads in the sand and basically blame their inability to recognise these courses on EASA. I would like to hear from anyone who is in a similar predicament in view to launching some form of legal class action suit which would involve UK solicitors. It all depends on how many engineers out there are willing to stand up against the EASA ruling. Please email me in strictest confidence.
Here's wishing everyone a very peaceful & Happy New Year.

[Kuchan]

You have never been to UK long enough to understand the UK laws.
CAA would stick to the rules no matter how much money you spend on solicitor or lobby it in your way. Unfortunately, only CAA approved courses and EASA 147 approval organisation course certificates are recognised by CAA.
It is better to convert into Ireland EASA or other EU EASA AMEL ( if accepted) before approaching CAA for conversion. Afterall, other EU EASA AMEL is as good as CAA EASA AMEL in EU.

[fastbuck]

Dear Kuchan,
Thank you for your reply. True I havent had the opportunity to reside in the UK long enough and even if I did I would probably still would not understand the laws completely. Because i have held te BCAR Licence I decided to do the conversion with the CAA. I suppose if I had been wiser I should have converted in Ireland. I still will try my utmost to see this through. If the governing NAA's feel that the previously qualified certifying Engineers are no longer qualified to hold the ratings because the courses are no longer recognised, shouldn't the NAA's inform the airlines concerned that the remaining engineers in their employ are no longer permitted to certify EU reg aeroplanes. Furthermore a review of the certificatons carried out should be scrutinised and recertifications effected. A serious contradiction exists at the moment whereby the non EU airlines non EASA licenced engineers are allowed to certify EU reg aircraft on the strentgh of their company approvals.
Take a close look at the certifying LAE's in the Gulf/ Asia/ Africa. When these expats leave their respective employers they will find themselves seriously disadvantaged. Once again I would advise anyone else who feels the same way to pm me or view their opinions in this excellent forum.

[Kuchan]

You mixed up between licence and approval.

CAA issues AMELicence. Company issues approval, not licence.
CAA polices the UK CAA Part 147 Organisations by way of auditing etc.
Other EU EASA licensing authorities do the same for other EU approved organisations.

An organisation may issue an approval to any personnel she (QA) deems qualified to sign off her fleet of aircraft. CAA will audit the company to ensure she is in full compliant with the regulations.

UK CAA has authority over her own CAA approved organisations, and not Malaysian CAAs’ or An African CAAs’. CAA can only vet her approved Schools (fee payable, not free), and not MAS Training School or Saudi Aircraft School.

To approve your course(s) would set a precedent for an influx of applicants as far as from Laos. Once a precedent is set, it becomes a rule. Then CAA would find it hard to turn down any unapproved courses from any countries. That is why CAA has the rules as a bible to adhere to.

It is not CAA that fails you, It is your previous employers and their CAAs not having an agreement with UK CAA. I believe Brunei courses are recognised by UK CAA.

I have friends having the same predicaments as you. I had worksheets returned for lack of elaborated work tasks and coverage after 6 months of experience. I felt resentful considering that other EU personnel could have an EU EASA AMEL type rating after a month of work experience. I had to do an APPROVED two years A & C course to qualify for CAA AMEL exam because my A & C course from other country was not recognised by CAA.

CAA would stick to her rules to keep her integrity. Her unique and unbiased integrity make UK CAA the best demanded AMEL all over the world.

I doubt if UK CAA has any recognition with US NAA or FAA AMEL. A & P is not recognised by CAA here although N registered aircraft can land and certified by A & P in UK.

Remember that if you follow the rule, no one can blame you although they hate you.

It is the same as many driving licences (except international) or University degrees from other countries not recognised in UK even though many are no doubt better drivers and knowledgeable than British.

[Kuchan]

You mixed up licence and approval.

CAA issues AMELicence. Company issues approval, not licence.

CAA polices the UK CAA Part 147 Organisations by way of auditing etc.
Other EU EASA licensing authorities do the same for other EU approved organisations.

An organisation may issue an approval to any personnel she (QA) deems qualified to sign off her fleet of aircraft. CAA will audit the company to ensure she is in full compliant with the regulations.

UK CAA has authority over her own CAA approved organisations, and not Malaysian CAAs’ or An African CAAs’. CAA can only vet her approved Schools (fee payable, not free), and not MAS Training School or Saudi Aircraft School.

To approve your course(s) would set a precedent for an influx of applicants as far as from Laos. Once a precedent is set, it becomes a rule. Then CAA would find it hard to turn down any unapproved courses from any countries. That is why CAA has the rules as a bible to adhere to.

It is not CAA that fails you, It is your previous employers and their CAAs not having an agreement with UK CAA. I believe Brunei courses are recognised by UK CAA.

I have friends having the same predicaments as you. I had worksheets returned for lack of elaborated work tasks and coverage after 6 months of experience. I felt resentful considering that other EU personnel could have an EU EASA AMEL type rating after a month of work experience.

CAA would stick to her rules to keep her integrity. Her unique and unbiased integrity make UK CAA the best demanded AMEL all over the world.

I doubt if UK CAA has any recognition with US NAA or FAA AMEL. A & P is not recognised by CAA here although N registered aircraft can land and certified by A & P in UK.

Remember that if you follow the rule, no one can blame you although they hate you.

It is the same as many driving licences (except international) or University degrees from other countries not recognised in UK even though many are no doubt better drivers and knowledgeable than British.

[bvcu]

Kuchan, just to clarify, this is all about bits of paper, not the courses, the EK school is now approved under JAR147 , so CAA will now accept course. However those of us that did the same course before cant put it on our licence. Many of us did these courses at Boeing and Airbus , also with personnel from 2 UK airlines and 2 major european flag carriers who were all able to put them on their JAR licences because they were deemed to be under their own airlines approval.Your analogy of the FAA system isnt really relevant although i see your point. If you hold an A&P this is a mechanics licence with relevant level of responsibility , any additional responsibility which corresponds to our B1/B2 level would be under company approval e.g RII approval, CAT 11/111 cert etc. Have spoken with CAA on courses and another problem is that companies like Singapore whose courses were accepted by them pre JAR on ICAO system are barred now because of EASA system. All i can say is join ALAE and get lobbying as this is just one issue affecting us of many that are cropping up , especially the guys on the lighter side of aviation who have all of this slowly coming in !!!

[fastbuck]

bvcu i have applied to join alae. kuchan thank you for your post.
rgds fastbuck

[BAe146s make me cry]

Kuchan

To date, the UKCAA have converted over 20 'approval holders' to
B1.1 restricted AMLs. The initial 'approvals' were granted on the basis of
a basic AML being held, the FAR 65 A&P AMT licence.

The UKCAA really can claim what they like about the A&P not being recognised but had it not been for the A&P, these chaps would NOT have gained the initial company approvals, therefore NOT have gained Part 66 B1.1s, restricted or otherwise...

I sympathise with Fastbuck's plight and my previous post just
re-iterates that EASA/UKCAA can adjust the 'regulation interpretation to requirement ratio' as and when needed - ££££££ :mad:

Regards

BAe146???:{ :{

[Kuchan]

If we all join ALAE, we can get more pressure on CAA for a change.

It is good to hear that CAA has woke up to some reality of life and have converted over 20 ' A & P approval holders' to B1.1 restricted AMLs.

People like fastbuck from Malaysia and my friends are good engineers, but are denied the UK CAA AMEL as bvcu has rightly said that it was a paper exercise.

Presently, CAA has not woken to the reality that many Eastern Europe EASA AMEL holders are not near the standard of people from CX and Malaysia, yet swamping the aircraft market, lowering the LAE pay and occasionally frightened us of their incapability.

I wish people good luck like fastbuck.

[BAe146s make me cry]

Kuchan

I personally don't mind these conversions BUT officially,
according to the UKCAA, the FAA A&P didn't play a part
in the conversions - 'the approval + Part 147 type
training + experience' were used in the conversion reports.

Myself (and others) would like to see some consistency from
EASA/UKCAA soon (like today) if they can possibly acheive it...
The system as it is is precluding some of the better LAEs out there.

Make yourselves heard, register a complaint to the EC today::
http://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/form/en/default.htm

In closing, I'm proud to be a member of the ALAE 1981.

Regards

BAe 146???:{ :{

[fastbuck]

Its been a while since i posted on this forum. I can say now that I have given up completely. There was a glimmer of hope when the EASA Rule making body were to review my case for the benefit of all the other engineers in my situation. I have heard no more. The CAA position is steadfast and until & unless EASA changes the rules UK CAA engineers will be seriously disadvantaged compared to their EU counterparts. Best of luck to any of you out there who decide to move away from the sandpit. The UK CAA will not endorse any Emirates Pre 147 courses even though it has been proven that the course content and examination standard were on par and in some cases exceeded 147 requirements.
If I can be of help to anyone please send me an email and i will do my best.
Brgds:

[super engineer]

Hi fastbuck,

Been a year since your last reply, I was in a similar situation. A year back I sent application for Type Ratings endorsement to CAA. But was rejected. :ugh:
Few years back, I got my UK EASA 66 LWTR and succesfully converted to my Hong Kong 66 License.:D Did several Type Courses with CX and got my HKAR66 License endorsed. Was trying to endorse the Types into my UK EASA 66, but then just found out CAA did not recognise Hong Kong 147 standard.:sad:

Have you got any update in this issue to share....??
or any one else could advise....??

Any feedback/update/info would be much appreciated.:)

Brgds/
super engineer

[lloyd_dsouza]

Hi guys went through the whole list of your discussion, so i guess u ppl r more experienced than me. I need a little help on this. I hve an AME license og DGCA, India. And i want to hold an EASA license. IS there any way that i can get it converted, meaning are there any relaxations or credits that I have for the EASA exams or do i hve tro appear all the modules. Not to mention I also work for an EASA approved company.

Many Thanks

[bvcu]

Have recently heard a rumour that CAA are now accepting HAECO courses ? We're still looking at doing a type exam in dxb to get our pre 147 types on licence. has any one done it with an SQ course yet ?

[Capot]

CAA would stick to her rules to keep her integrity. Her unique and unbiased integrityUnfortunately the reality is that the CAA, for a number of reasons, no longer has any integrity; its people are - with some notable exceptions - only there because they are unemployable elsewhere in the industry, and they stick to the letter of the rules simply because they are too incompetent or lazy to do anything else.

They focus on the minutiae of process rather than results, because that's all they understand; they do not have the wit or will to apply common-sense.

They are far more interested in finding more revenue sources than they are in achieving real improvements in safety. Maybe this is forced on them, but that does not excuse it.

I'll believe in their integrity when I hear that they have told BA to get its house in order or stop flying, and mean it, when they stop using money they receive in fees to invest in commercial ventures, when cronyism ceases to be the primary recruitment method, when they stop openly and officially supporting businesses set up by ex-CAA staff, and most of all when they get back to being a highly competent, tough, fair regulator, no more and no less.




To lighten the mood.....

An RAF Tornado pilot was badly wounded in Iraq, and lost his scrotum. On being invalided out, he was offered a job in the CAA as an Aerodrome Inspector. He accepted and was given his Induction briefing to Aviation House.

"OK, we all start work at 08.30. At 10.30 we break for tea and biscuits. At 11.00 we start again and work really hard until 1230. Then we break for the subsidised lunch that the suckers pay for, and then we resume at 1.30 pm for another stretch of hard work until 3.00pm when we stop for tea. From 3.30 to 4.30 we tidy up and get ready to go home, which we do at 4.30, congratulating ourselves on putting in another long day.
However you, old boy, don't have to start until after the 10.30 tea break. Any questions?"

"Well, yes, why don't I start with everyone else?"

"Ah yes. The thing is, old chap, how can I put it, all we do from 08.30 to 10.30 is stand around and scratch our balls."

[Ned Coates]

I'm in the same boat and have been scratching my head....To figure out why someone, with three decades of maint experience, who can be placed anywhere on the planet and safely maintain Airbus and Boeing jets,could have ended up with no relevant qualifications and un-employable in Europe.

I think the answer may lie in finding the true purpose of the UKCAA. What we think it is and what it actually is, may be two very different things. Try Companies House in London. Du Pont.

[super engineer]

You may wanna googling this one : Foreign_EASA_Part_147[1].pdf

this is EASA website listing all non EASA land approved 147 company, not sure if it talking about 147 Basic or Type course though......

[spannersatcx]

Have recently heard a rumour that CAA are now accepting HAECO courses
HAECO is an EASA 147 approved training school, as long as the course certificate states that then the CAA HAS to accept it.

I hve an AME license og DGCA, India. And i want to hold an EASA license. IS there any way that i can get it converted, meaning are there any relaxations or credits that I have for the EASA exams or do i hve tro appear all the modules No, no credits or exemptions.

[din]

Hi ,
I have friend who converted to B1 but UK CAA denied him the endorsement because the certificate from Airbus did not have it's Part 147 approval number on it. Unlucky for him the EASA approval was granted to Airbus training few days after his course commenced.
funny!!!!!!!!!

[fastbuck]

Its been a while since I posted on PPRUNE. Its a pointless exercise trying to battle the establishment. By the time you move one step forward its two steps back. I did my re exams with my former employer for my B777 conversion but I cant get them on my EASA Licence because the Airline im with currently doesnt operate the type, so I cant get work experience on Type without which the CAA wont endorse the licence. Bearing in mind this a Grandfather rights issue. I wont be using the Rating anyway as I would need to resit Approval Exams So it would have been no loss to the CAA. The same will apply to all my other types. Also my former employer is not running any more exams for the likes of us former expats who have left the sandpit. So thats the end of that. Years of work down the drain. My advice to the Expats still out there. Stay there!
Good Luck
fastbuck

[NutLoose]

Look on the bright side, if you had say the DC3, DC4, DC6 etc on your CAA licence, you would of had to jump through all the hoops and things to get an EASA licence to find that a year or so further on that EASA in an about turn would decide these would now go back onto your National CAA issued licence!!!

Of course, as your EASA licence is not renewed for 5 years they will still appear on your licence, as will a lot of other things since removed or the limitations removed and the type shuffled around in the listings into groups.....

So you now have a licence showing aircraft not actually still on it or even limitations on certain aircraft that are now in groups you hold giving you full coverage under the group even though it appears you have a limitation on the type, which you no longer have!..... what is printed on my licence is fiction to what I actually hold and even then if I get asked to fix XYZ I need to trawl through the web to see if this week I am still cleared to sign it off.

To compound the issue, think of companies operating the likes of the DC3 having had to go through the grief and expense of getting full EASA 145 approvals to find the aircraft then going back to the CAA Approvals they previously held!!!!!!

At least they have taken steps to rectify the stupid system where your EASA licence was valid for 5 years but your accompanying CAA one (Issued free) reduced to only for 2 years, it has since gone back to 5 years the last time I checked, shame it now still throws it out of sequence with my EASA one.......suppose to have originally done both at once thus saving costs and postage would have been too simple. :ugh::ugh:

:oh:

[airlineguy1980]

I AGREE completely with many guys here on conversion.let me tell you some thing i heard from one UK caa guy.i asked him how can i convert my singapore license to uk easa license.i did all my module exam again and now comes to experiance part i asked him how many years log book i need he said 5 years.but i know some guys who have given just 2 years experiance and 8 years as technician letter from quality department he got his basic license.there are so much irregularity on whats the standard.now here comes super part of part 147 crap.there are some companies in asia who have part 147 type rating courses.but they wont issue the certificate using that number in.for example X will be given local 147 numbers y will be given easa 147 certificate.even though both attend the same course.i dont know why.but what uk CAA care is the easa 147 number printed on certificate then you can get it on your license.thats it.why we can go long and long.but we are civilians they are authority.end of the story.i have converted my asian license into croatian jar 66 without sitting for single exam with all type rating once croatia join the EU guess what i get all my types and can exercise and gona look at the uk caa guy one more time in his face.all this is possible that guy in croatian authority like to help.nothing more he prepared his own assesment report compared everything pain stakingly .but next time when we do type course outside eu ask them if its not part 147 certificate refuse the course.then that create a lot of worm at work place.life goes on mate. if there is a case to be built we need proof of the virgin or BA guys on our side to support the case to pin caa on the wall

[airlineguy1980]

forget to mention.the guy sent 2 years log book experiance and 8 years technician experiance letter from non part 145.uk caa issued him license when just a month ago the caa informed in person at gatwick they need to see 5 year log book to count