Engineer Shortage ?

[heli1]

Recent posts have suggested there is a growing problem finding engineere ,certainly in the UK.My local company is at least two down at the moment with no applications,leaving my aircraft gathering dust in between waiting for parts.

When you look at the recent Occurences List from the CAA SRG it also seems that there are a growing number of maintenance isssues coming up ,like incorrect bolts fitted to rotor hubs,missing bolts,incorrect assembly etc etc.
Is this symptomatic of a lack of experience and the retirement of older staff?

There has beeen much discussion regarding a shortage of pilots,but maybe they won't have any helicopters to fly at this rate !!

[SASless]

There has always been a shortage of "good" engineers. I have seen plenty of engineers that should have worn black and carried a scythe to work.

The industry has always tried to treat engineers like enlisted men in the military rather than accept them as the qualified professionals they are. Far too many pilots forget they are no longer officers in the military and continue to view engineers as lesser ranks.

[HeliEng]

To anyone who reads this, it is not meant as a personal ‘dig’ at anybody, and it is based on my own experiences and the people I have met and dealt with whilst at work.



I think that it goes without saying that there is a shortage of engineers. We are facing a problem of an aging workforce (sorry guys!) and there is little in the way of up-coming young people to take their places.
In my experience (and this is not a sweeping generalisation) the young people that I have seen, particularly those attending work placements, are not actually interested in becoming an engineer, or they thought it might be good idea until they get a taster of what we actually do, then they change their mind.
I believe the fire service and police force are going through much the same crisis, and I believe that it stems from this computer age that we are living in. People don’t want to have to get off their ar@*s and actually “DO” something!
There also seem to be a growing number of engineers opting for a change of direction. I know of at least half a dozen who have left aviation to pursue a career in another field.
Companies are not helping themselves either. With growing pay issues at more and more companies, with few doing anything about it, staff are getting more and more disgruntled, and seeing that other industries hold greater financial rewards. It is fairly accepted where I work that your average experienced car mechanic is likely to be earning more. Also with growing commercial pressure, people are expected to do more for less, overtime at a seconds notice, and things like that.
Our world is growing so money-orientated that people don’t do jobs because that is what they want to do, it is all to do with money. Personally I do my job because I love it. Fixing helicopters is what I do, and in my mind is what I am meant to do. Don’t take me the wrong way, the money is nice, and I wouldn’t do it for nothing, but I would certainly not leave the industry for another job because of the money.

I also totally agree with SASless.

I was once asked by a pilot: "Where do you see your career going?"
So I replied: "I'd like to get my licence and then one day maybe be Chief Engineer"
He went on to say: "Would you then go on to become a pilot?"
"No" I replied "Why would I do that?"

His answer will remain with me until I die: "Surely that is the next logical progression isn't it? You don't want to be an engineer forever?"

Stepping down off of my soap-box! :E

[Gael Warning]

HeliEng

Engineering in the UK, whatever the discipline has always been seen as "Lots of work, little reward".. I agree with your sentiments, albeit, speaking as someone who left Helicopter Engineering to pursue a more financially rewarding career. The military "Class" system can still be found in certain feckwits around the bazaars, but thankfully, most pilots are fairly decent blokes.. the same can be said of engineers.. for every pilot who is up his own arse, there is an engineer with a chip on his shoulder.

I think Engineers are very undervalued in the UK, and as long as this shortfall remains, then the recruitment problem can only get worse. It must be nice to do a job you love, purely for that reason, however I guess the young guys now, all look at the housing market, cost of living etc and rightly decide that aircraft engineering isn't going to pay the bills anymore.

I think its up to the companies to stop taking these guys and their skills for granted, paying them what they are worth, and recognising the effort and hassle these guys take on, for a few hours extra work here and there to keep the ships in the air.. Its not just about a few hours extra in work, its less time with the kids, the wife.. whatever.. I know a lot of guys who are very disillusioned with the business, and I don't blame them either.

GW

[jumpseater]

I seem to recall a comment that the average age for a UK engineer is in the order of their late 40's.
I do know an electrical mech engineer who's interested in finding out about aviation engineering, and sounds like he's prepared to do min wage to get the licences etc. He's in his late 20's/30's. Where should I point him to start. Location is near EGNE Nottinghamshire UK
Ta js

[NickLappos]

In the US we call them Airframe and Powerplant Mechanics (A&P for short) and they are trained in a system just like the one used for pilots. Considering the comparitave nightmare of getting a CAA pilot's license, as compared to an FAA one, is the perceived shortage of licensed UK "engineers" another symptom of the same "system" that prevents people from getting to the goal?

[Geoffersincornwall]

.........if what we read on PPRUNE is true helicopter pilots in the US are treated worse than truck drivers. So does that make A&P chopper mechanics the equivalent - or worse than - truck-menders. Not wishing to cast aspersions in the direction of diesel mechs. They are highly skilled and I hear they are highly paid but aviation is a different discipline ....... isn't it?

All those flight safety posters showing bi-planes poking out of oak trees with the captions referring to the unforgiving nature of aviation surely infer that this world we live in is special.

Having lost a very dear friend when a nut came off a bolt I am particularly sensitive to the notion that just because a guy (or gal) wants to be an engineer or pilot it follows that his path should be greased by a system that makes it easy to get through the licensing process so long as you have the time and the cash to keep taking the tests.

I'm not saying that the JAR system is perfect either but somewhere along the line there needs to be ability and competence and a process that tests for the right levels of ability and competence.

When you find that a licensed A & P guy in Brazil cannot even use a micrometer then you have to wonder about the system...... and when that system is modelled on the FAA system you cannot help but wonder about how comprehensive THAT system is. I don't know how good or bad it is but the anecdotal evidence does not lead me to feal that the US has got things absolutely right.

One thing is for sure and that is the fact that it is extremely hard for a good engineer to function well in a poorly managed engineering department that is starved of resources and facilities. IMHO the biggest problem we face is in this area. These guys cannot function (FAA or JAR 66) without effective and informed management. My recent experience leads me to believe that the commercial guys have their heads up their a****s and think that cost cutting in the engineering world is a sound way to proceed. Think again - before it's too late I say. A company that relies on commercial people to make operational decisions is heading for a fall.

G

:ugh:

[NickLappos]

Gotcha going, eh Goeff?

Yes, we have on one side the rough tough CAA certification system and on the other side the namby-pamby FAA system where licenses are given out in gum ball machines, but the facts remains that the accident rates of the two systems are identical!

The UK system must be better, you have heli1 saying, "....leaving my aircraft gathering dust in between waiting for parts." He must be safe, he's not flying!

[SASless]

Geoffers,

Your prejudice shows through again I fear.

I too lost a friend to a broken bolt....a patently clear case of engineering failure on the individual and management level. The engineer was from the CAA side, the supervision was also CAA approved....and all concerned considered themselves superior to the FAA version.

There are bad apples in every barrel. I have run off FAA mechanics because they were incompetent and if I had been in a position to do so....would have run off some CAA/JAR engineers that were incompetent as well.

Those are individual cases.....and neither indicts the licensing system. They do indict the company that employed them.

I have seen mechanics and engineers from each system that were miracle workers thus again, I would suggest it is not the system as much as the people involved.

Ultimately, management decisions will be made by the management....hopefully they will have the background and experience (either hands on....or provided by someone that does) to make valid and safe decisions.

[Geoffersincornwall]

.........just had to vent my splean. There is nothing more galling than watching a good bunch of engineers who toil through the night to deliver the goods only to find that .....

no they can't have a hangar with proper lighting heating and ventilation.....or....

no they can't have the staff to keep pace with a 10 flight hour per day flying programme for each aircraft because the manpower budget was written around 5 hours per day.... or .....

no they don't have the staff licensed on the new type yet because some t***er (not sure what the US equivalent of t***er is but maybe w***er is better understood in a world where 'fags' are definately not cigarettes) who planned the whole project had an MBA from the Kellogg's School of Management ..... or should that be Wrigley's.... as in 'gum'!!.... and thought that licensing was done on the internet by return of post. (mail!!) Grrrrrrrrrrrr

:ugh:

G

PS. We used to say 'Lions lead by donkeys' but there is a case for saying that's unfair to the poor bl***dy donkeys.

PPS. sorry everybody, wont go on about it any more

PPS. SAS - My chum was a victim of a CAA system so don't get me wrong. As Nick says, both systems seem to achieve the same results in the end but IMHO that's no excuse to ignore those wrinkles that need ironing out.

[HeliEng]

I think that both systems, (FAA & EASA) have their merits, but I think that the FAA are closer to the mark. Not only do you have to be able to retain a bit of knowledge, but you have to be able to show that you can DO the job also. Not just remember a load of stuff and answer some multi-guess questions.
On one hand I think that EASA/CAA were foolish to get rid of the Oral examination, on the other hand I have seen too many blo*dy good engineers passing all the exams, and then not been able to get through the oral.

There are certainly bad apples in every barrel, and the unfortunate thing is that I think that the EASA system breeds them. There are engineers out there who can pass exams every day of the week, but with a spanner in their hand, they are quite literally, and honestly, LETHAL!!!!

I would agree again with SASless and say that these people, individually, have done nothing wrong, and are not at fault. The companies that employ, and approve them however, are. But there is a problem, in one breath we are saying that there is a shortage of engineers, and that the guys who are retiring are not being replaced, then in the next breath we are condeming these people who are perhaps a little mechanically challenged, for going out there and getting their licences!!

The other problem that we face is that as companies become more and more short staffed, they are being pushed into employing contractors, which can be, for the engineer, significantly more financially beneficial. This then takes engineers from permenant employment, leaving their company short staffed. Here begins the viscious circle.

It is a very difficult time we, as an industry, are entering, and only time will tell.

[kissmysquirrel]

so what's required for someone who is qualified as an engineer in another multi-discipline role, say marine mechanical/electrical/electronic, can they start as helo engineers without having to do exams then work their way up the ladder?

Just wondering.:hmm:

[quichemech]

If they can find an employer, are willing to work for a few years on crap pay and also wish to devote a lot of their spare time to studying, then yes is the answer.

[h73kr]

so what's required for someone who is qualified as an engineer in another multi-discipline role, say marine mechanical/electrical/electronic, can they start as helo engineers without having to do exams then work their way up the ladder?

Just wondering.:hmm:

Anyone can work on aircraft, provided the work is then certified by a Licensed engineer. That's the theory, but are you really going to let just anybody, even at mechanic level (and there's nothing wrong with being a mechanic) who doesn't know what he's doing work on your expensive aircraft? I think the lack of UK aviation manufacturing plus the rundown of the forces is resulting in a big lack of civvy engineers. If it means an increase in the value with which they are held then so much the better. It is heartening by the way to read the comments from some of flight crew on here who obviously have a grip on the value of good engineers, which is not something I have always experienced on the line at first hand. We aren't all failed pilots, some of us actually enjoy and choose to do it! :)

[robsrich]

The Oz fleet is about 1,300. Half these are piston machines. Growth is about 7% pa (8% in NZ).

Depending how you start your calculations, it is thought the average age of a work force in near 43, when the work force is static in size.

Some data suggests the average age of Oz engineers is about early fifties - ten years older than the ideal model. (Pilots are late forties).

Two problems: Ageing workforce and a lot retiring in a short space of time; and a growth rate of 8% means you will doubled your fleet in maybe six-seven years - where will the engineers come from?

The end result is obvious. (I failed maths at school).

That is, we have to replace those going off chasing grandkids; and also provide new blood to both replace these and sustain the growth of the fleet now becoming rather high tech and engineer hungry.

Just try and get your autopilot fixed these days.

Why is this so? Our education system pushes the uni programmes (money) and not technical colleges (not popular with Mum’s).

Solution: Engineers have to hard sell their industry!! They generally get good money (more than pilots in many cases), have job security so far as medicals go, they need to try and get world standardisation of their qualification and not be bullied by the JAA system which seems to exclude people and makes travel harder.

Any thoughts??

[markysharky]

If they can find an employer, are willing to work for a few years on crap pay and also wish to devote a lot of their spare time to studying, then yes is the answer.
Hello Quiche my old mate! I think the company that you work for (now) has the answer- i.e . young, keen (ish!), apprentices- experience is the key in this game as you know & I personally think that it is difficult to teach old dogs new tricks
Sharkster

[moosp]

In HKG here our engineers are certificated by our local Civil Aviation Department, which is strongly based on the old UK system, with local additions. Further addtions and complexity have been added in the last ten years as we have become a, "one country, two systems" administration under China. It is becoming a monster.

Fully licenced and competent engineers from other jurisdictions have to take a multitude of local exams if they wish to work here. Many choose not to, and take up other jobs or professions, or simply move on. Local graduates see the difficulty of getting licensed, and self select away to other engineering disciplines.

China has an aircraft engineering system which when you hold it up to the light looks very like that of the FAA. It it appreciably easier to ensure compliance, and engineers with an A&P can work there with relatively easy licence conversion.

The net result is that aircraft owners in Hong Kong are now looking to register their aircraft over the border where the engineering compliance is much simpler, and to American standards. (And yes it is- a well run Chinese engineering organisation has world class standards.)

The future should be that HKG CAD will slowly loose all their registrations, as operators transfer to the mainland. And so it should, as we only had 50 years from 1997 to integrate.

Aviation Authorities should be looking to simplify their systems, to make them more efficient and effective, just as manufacturers have to improve to ensure that "foreigners" don't eat their lunch. Otherwise the future is aviation flags of convenience, as happpened in the merchant marine, and the ensuing safety issues.

[robsrich]

Well said ..... we are regulating ourselves of of business.....

[tbtstt]

Hi all! By coincidence I’m actually starting on the road to Engineering Licensing and, thus far, my experience with the CAA has been less then pleasing. Having spent a number of years (and a number of £’s…) acquiring the various college and University qualifications that the CAA recommended to me, I was expecting them to be pretty receptive when I started on the process of becoming a licensed Engineer.

After managing to secure a job as an engineer – which is easier said then done, as 95% of helicopters operators (& the aviation industry in general) don’t want to touch inexperienced engineers – I made my initial application to the CAA. Upon making this application I was surprised to learn that, despite acquiring all the qualifications they had encouraged me to get, I would receive no credits for any of the Engineering examination subjects. My frustration was further compounded in that, of the 12 exams required to obtain a B1.3 license, 11 of them were subjects I had already specifically studied at Higher level. Still, given that I have to have at least 3 years “tool time” to my name, retaking a few exams in the meantime isn’t really an issue – the CAA’s lack of co-operation is still pretty frustrating though.

I’m in total agreement with HeliEng’s post. The vast majority of folks who graduated with me have ended up either in Sim Tech jobs or as Hanger Line Managers, all of which are immediately better paid than similar “hands on” engineering positions. For most of the people graduating their thoughts were something along the lines of “why bother with hands on, when I can make more money sitting at a desk?”. Given that I’m a stubborn type though, and have always wanted to work ON aircraft rather than being stuck behind a table all day, I went for the hands on option and, minor gripes with the CAA aside, I’m still bloody glad I did.

If all goes to plan and I get my Engineers License, I’d love to have a crack at getting a PPL(H) as well - and I already have no doubt in my mind that, if I do, I’ll once again be starting at square one with the CAA!

[Gael Warning]

I think a lot of the problem stems from the fact that people are trying to make a lot of money out of helicopter engineering.. thus cutting costs, facilities, capping salaries etc.

Its the old cliche.. wanna make a small fortune out of helicopter engineering?? Start with a large one.

[Rigga]

I've had A&C LWTR Jet Helicopters since 1989, and have 15 years of military rotary work under my belt. I always enjoyed working on Helicopters.
I also have plank Licences and even a Type Rating I don't use any more.
I don't like Plank work!
I even find big boeings (that I work on) boring and mechanically unsophisticated. They don't 'excite' me at all.
There seems to be a shortage of Heli Engineers due to the amount of adverts and repeated adverts for the same positions, seemingly desparate ads offering free type ratings or even sponsoring Licences to applicants.
For the last year I have been trying for Jobs at Helicopter places that don't want to know me. It could be my age, it could be my lack of recency, it could be my experience (though I have done some work for Bristow and PAS). Maybe its because I would expect too much? I have never been given the chance to find out.
I have now plumbed for a Desk Job on Helicopters. (Strangely, using my LWTR!) with as much as Licenced pay.
No, I think a "Shortage" may have accomodated even me.

A seemingly desperate Rigga. (No - I'm not)

[thecontroller]

quote: "Our world is growing so money-orientated "

i think insane UK house prices has something to do with this. its just like the shortage of UK instructors at the moment. why earn £23k a year working like a dog, and never having the opportunity to own ANYTHING in the UK, when you go go work the north sea, earn £40k a year and work half the time...

[helimutt]

or go to the North Sea, get paid and don't fly. Seems there's a few guys doing just that now. No S76's or staff to train them. Nice work if you can get it.