SIMOPS at YBTL

[Ratshit]

My run around the traps last week raised a few questions.

1) Did the guy in the tower mean to insult the Fork-tailed Dr Killer (BE35) by calling it a Debonair?

2) Do you need an Instrument Rating to fly a canopy in IMC? (See "IFR Meat Bombs")

3) As I had to fly the YMBA GPS RNAV approach to get into YATN, I wonder what would it cost me to access to the "private" YATN GPS RNAV approach? (See "YATN GPS RNAV Approach")

and lastly

4) What are the requirements for the simultaneous operation of aircraft on intersecting runways at YBTL?

I was on short final for RWY 07 (cleared to land and hold short of 01), when an Alliance F50 that was lined up on 01 was cleared for Take Off.

At that point I was looking at the two (out of three) green gear lights, fiddling with the one that was out, and contemplating a "go round".

Had I gone around, I would have passed, at low level, over the top of the F50 that was rolling on 01.

I have been a party to similar movements at Townsville in the past, and would be interested to hear from someone with a good knowledge of the rules whether such operations are a normal occurance.

I was involved in a similar thing in YBCS last year, and the crew of the other aircraft (QF 767) seemed quite concerned about it and sought reassurance from the tower that I knew they were rolling and that I was going to stop short of their runway.

Not suggesting that there was necessarily any safety compromise here - it just seems unusual to have a jet crossing your line of sight as you land.

Comments?

R:cool:

[Chimbu chuckles]

Seek out the information on the wiring of your undercarriage indicator...originally Bonanzas only had one light...and the same wiring drives your three lights (almost certainly) so you may have been concerned, almost certainly were in fact, about nothing. ANY one green light indicates all your wheels are down and locked otherwise you cannot get any green lights.

LAHSO (Land And Hold Short Operations) runway ops require specific training to participate in. Clearly you have never received that training so you should decline to participate...that means the departing aircraft waits in position until you're down and stopped. LAHSO also requires recurrent training so anyone so trained but lacking recency must make the ATCO aware of that and decline participation.

If you're participating in LAHSO and need to go around you initially point your aeroplane at the other aeroplane and then hold that heading...that way you cannot hit them...yes I am serious:ok:

[dragchute]

I was on short final for RWY 07 (cleared to land and hold short of 01), when an Alliance F50 that was lined up on 01 was cleared for Take Off.

At that point I was looking at the two (out of three) green gear lights, fiddling with the one that was out, and contemplating a "go round".

Comments?

R:cool:

I really got to ask this question.

If you select the gear down abeam the threshold or at the FAF and a ‘locked’ light doesn’t illuminate wouldn’t you discontinue the approach until it’s sorted rather than carry the doubt all the way to short finals?

[Ratshit]

Chuckles - I was aware of "ANY one green light indicates all your wheels are down and locked otherwise you cannot get any green lights", from one of your earlier posts (which just goes to prove that you can learn something from sticking your nose in PPRuNE). None-the-less, if I had not got the 3rd green light on by tapping the bulb with my finger, I probably would have gone round - and had a good play with the gear etc.

Your comments on LAHSO are interesting.

"you should decline to participate....."

I didn't ever agree to participate! I assume you are saying that when the F50 was cleared for Take Off, I should have REQUIRED it be held until I had landed?

Would it not be a little unusual for the Tower to assume that the pilot of a Bonanza would be LAHSO trained and current?

dragchute - I had 3 greens when I did my pre-landing checks as I turned base (I was joining on left base for 07), but only had 2 when I PUF'd on final.

As a matter of interest, I have also landed the Bo on RWY 01 at YBTL and as I turned off at the first taxiway had a RAAF Hawk touching down behind me!

R:cool:

[Chimbu chuckles]

Its all in your AIP Enroute...all you need to know about LAHSO...I tried opening it on the CASA website but my ADOBE is not up to it...might be because I use a MAC instead of a PC.

LAHSO is not open slather...there are specific procedures which must be followed. Things like it is a dependant procedure, it will be mentioned on the ATIS, specific read back requirements, pilot advice of LAHSO approvals, undertsnding of the distance to run markers...etc...all headings under which fascinating info lives in your AIP ENR section.

[Ratshit]

Its all in your AIP Enroute...all you need to know about LAHSO...I tried opening it on the CASA website but my ADOBE is not up to it...might be because I use a MAC instead of a PC.

LAHSO is not open slather...there are specific procedures which must be followed. Things like it is a dependant procedure, it will be mentioned on the ATIS, specific read back requirements, pilot advice of LAHSO approvals, undertsnding of the distance to run markers...etc...all headings under which fascinating info lives in your AIP ENR section.

4 Participation in LAHSO operations
4.1 For the purposes of regulation 5.11, it is a condition on a private pilot licence, a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence that the holder must not, while operating an aeroplane, actively participate in LAHSO unless the holder:
(a) carries out the operation in the course of the holder’s duties as an
employee of an operator who has a training and checking organisation
approved under regulation 217 and has been assessed by an appropriate
person in that organisation, in accordance with the check and training
manual, as competent in those matters specified in Appendixes 1 and 2;
or
(b) is certified in the holder’s personal logbook by an appropriate person as being competent in those matters specified in Appendixes 1 and 2 and
able to actively participate in LAHSO; or
(c) is being instructed or assessed by an appropriate person for the purpose of enabling the person to determine the holder’s competence in those matters specified in Appendixes 1 and 2.
4.2 For the purposes of regulation 5.11, it is a condition on a student pilot licence that the holder must not, while operating an aeroplane as pilot in command, actively participate in LAHSO.
4.3 For the issue of a log book endorsement under subparagraph 4.1 (b), a pilot must be shown to have met the requirements of the Achievement Record as set out in Appendix 2. For that purpose, the Achievement Record must be signed by the pilot and an appropriate person before being submitted to CASA.
4.4 For the purposes of subparagraphs 4.1 (a), (b) and (c) and paragraph 4.3, an appropriate person is:
(a) a CASA flying operations inspector; or
(b) the holder of a grade 1, 2 or 3 flight instructor rating (aeroplanes) who has the log book certification referred to in subparagraph 4.1 (b); or
(c) any other person approved by CASA; or
(d) for a person referred to in subparagraph 4.1 (a) — a person approved by the operator to provide training and checking in accordance with the
operator’s check and training manual.
Civil Aviation Order 40.0
5
4.5 A logbook certification referred to in subparagraph 4.1 (b) must be in the following form:

(Name of pilot and ARN)
has been instructed in and found competent to

actively participate in Land and Hold Short Operations (LAHSO) in
accordance with subsection 4, and Appendixes 1 and 2, of section 40.0 of the Civil Aviation Orders, on (Date).
Signed: (LAHSO instructor)
ARN: (of LAHSO instructor)
Flying Training Organisation: (Name, if applicable)


Its OK Chuckles - I did not "actively partcipate"!
(Is that like " I did not have sex with that woman"?)

My participation was quite passive!

R:cool:

[Ratshit]

.... but having now read the documentation, I do not have any reason to think that LAHSO procedures were officially in operation at YBTL last Thursday!

R:cool:

[Genisis Dreaming]

I would be calling the SATCO at YBTL and telling him/her what had happened.

Get some 2-way discussion happening.

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Cmon guys...

The runways don't even intersect/cross. It's not a LAHSO operation - it's a CROP if anything - Converging Runway Operation, as used in Brisbane with RWY 14/32 and RWY 01/19 (except 19/32 combination).

The ADC has to time the 01 Departure at YBTL to be satisfied the situation is recoverable in the case of a missed approach.

The hold short instruction was just to stop you rolling through on the crossing taxiiway I would suspect.

The YATN approach is for QES and as far as I am aware commissioned and paid for by same - often used to get HELO to Atherton Hospital AFAIK.

[Green on, Go!]

I've never been to YBTL but here's a couple of things I do know:

LAHSO is a procedure for use on crossing RWYs, as opposed to the RWY orientation at YBTL
Use of LAHSO requires specific airfield signage, which YBTL doesn't have
As stated earlier, LAHSO needs to be included on the ATIS
The only RAAF ATCOs that are routinely assessed on LAHSO theory, regs and practical application are the Darwin guys, as that is the only RAAF controlled airfield where it's use is mandated
My suspicion is that the TWR guy/gal was just trying to stop a couple of holes in Mr Reason's Swiss cheese to line up by getting you to reaffirm the requirement to not roll off the end of 07 and cross 01/19. I daresay it has happened in the past...
As to the disposition of traffic, I'd prefer not to comment other than to say that it does not sound ideal. As stated earlier, give 'em a call.

Sounds like you've had an 'interesting' week RS, hope it gets better.:ok:

[dragchute]

Landing climb performance CAO 20.7.4 is 3.2%.
Runway 07 YBTL is 3600 feet long.
Threshold crossing height is 50 feet.

Assume RS set himself a go/no-go altitude of 300 feet, he would have 250 feet to loose from his go-around point to his threshold crossing point.
If the aircraft is descending on a 3 deg profile, the distance to traverse for the loss of 250 feet is (250 / 3 * 60) = 5000 feet. Therefore he would go-around 8,600 feet from the upwind end of RWY 07 and at a height of 300 feet.

My calculations: (3.2 * 8600 / 100) + 300 = 575 feet above runway 01 centreline. As long as he didn’t turn left in the same direction as the departing F50 there shouldn’t be a problem.

On his side he would have the prevailing south easterly wind, and about one minute to raise the flaps and improve climb performance. I’d pull the CB on the gear so I didn’t inadvertently select it up and do more damage if the fault is mechanical.

I’m sure the tower controller was comfortable with the procedure anyway.

[topdrop]

My run around the traps last week raised a few questions.

1) Did the guy in the tower mean to insult the Fork-tailed Dr Killer (BE35) by calling it a Debonair?


There's literally hundreds of aircraft types and they got one wrong - whoopee. Heard a Virgin flight accidentally called QANTAS today - now he did sound peeved.

3) As I had to fly the YMBA GPS RNAV approach to get into YATN, I wonder what would it cost me to access to the "private" YATN GPS RNAV approach? (See "YATN GPS RNAV Approach")

Why don't you give AsA a ring and ask them. Ask for Procedures Design section - I'm sure they'll be able to tell you whether the Approach is avbl to you or not (given CASA may have operational requirements for it's use) and if it is avbl, will be able to put you onto the people that will tell you the cost.



4) What are the requirements for the simultaneous operation of aircraft on intersecting runways at YBTL?

I was on short final for RWY 07 (cleared to land and hold short of 01), when an Alliance F50 that was lined up on 01 was cleared for Take Off.

At that point I was looking at the two (out of three) green gear lights, fiddling with the one that was out, and contemplating a "go round".

Had I gone around, I would have passed, at low level, over the top of the F50 that was rolling on 01.

I have been a party to similar movements at Townsville in the past, and would be interested to hear from someone with a good knowledge of the rules whether such operations are a normal occurance.

I was involved in a similar thing in YBCS last year, and the crew of the other aircraft (QF 767) seemed quite concerned about it and sought reassurance from the tower that I knew they were rolling and that I was going to stop short of their runway.

Not suggesting that there was necessarily any safety compromise here - it just seems unusual to have a jet crossing your line of sight as you land.


As stated by others, LAHSO requires the runways to cross and when they do procedures are laid down for it. In Cairns, there are procedures laid down for the use of 15/33 against 12/30, which do not cross. Limitations include downwind, wet runway etc. The sytem in place has proven pretty safe up to now and was examined by CASA in detail at last audit. I know some who will think a tick from CASA proves it unsafe. :}

[Ratshit]

I’m sure the tower controller was comfortable with the procedure anyway.

I was not particularly uncomfortable about the procedure either - although it does strike me as a little odd whenever they do it (this is not the first time - the last one was that new superquick QF Dash 8). I guess I am just not used to having a large aeroplane rolling into my visual field from the right as I come over the fence.

Last week was a little more unusual as I was actually contemplating a go-round from short final.

My strike rate with successful landings/approach (training excepted) is about 99.99%.

I think my last go-round was at Ardmore in NW Qld in November 2001 - just as I flared a C210 - courtesy of an old man roo who came out of the scrub for a looksee!

R:cool:

[Gnd Power]

QUOTE:
1) Did the guy in the tower mean to insult the Fork-tailed Dr Killer (BE35) by calling it a Debonair?


Did you perchance insult an Alliance F100 by calling it a F50? :)

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Rat****

Jump in your B737 / DHC8 and fly it down to Brisbane.

You will be landing RWY 14 all day and night from the North while departures and arrivals come and go RWY01/19.

If they didn't do this, the holding times for RPT alone would regularly blow out to 30+ minutes (next year will prove it!). [Chris Higgins will no doubt be posting here shortly telling us again how there should be NO holding in Australia EVER due traffic. I look forward to it.]

But it is not SIMOPS/LAHSO, just as it isn't in YBCS.

[Ratshit]

QUOTE:
1) Did the guy in the tower mean to insult the Fork-tailed Dr Killer (BE35) by calling it a Debonair?


Did you perchance insult an Alliance F100 by calling it a F50? :)

Damn it Gnd Power, you are right. There is no immunity from ignorance!

However, I didn't do it where the F100 might hear!

R:cool:

[Unhinged]

My run around the traps last week raised a few questions.
I was involved in a similar thing in YBCS last year, and the crew of the other aircraft (QF 767) seemed quite concerned about it and sought reassurance from the tower that I knew they were rolling and that I was going to stop short of their runway.

It can't be LAHSO since Cairns doesn't have intersecting runways. To go from rwy 30 onto rwy 15/33, you'd have to cross two (2) separate hold lines.
While I sometimes wonder about what would happen if I had to go round from an approach to rwy 30, there should be no debate at all that if you actually land on rwy 30 you're going to stop a long way short of rwy 15/33.

[megle2]

Don't like to break away from the thread but
****zu, can you elaborate on " next year will prove it ".
Not bringing the closure forward of 14 are they?