Which Uk company has Hats?

[captaintrigger]

Just wondering which Airlines have Hats at the moment.


I know first Choice do.....any others???

CT

[aces low]

Eastern Airways' pilots wear hats...and we get a bollocking if we are seen in public view without them. Airside there is more latitude, but in terminals etc we are supposed to keep our jackets and hi-viz vests done up and our hats donned. Aim is to make us look smart (which it does)...if a little anachronistic. Our hat design (IMHO) is not the best as it is less broader than military hats, yet slightly taller...more like a 19th century era sea captain's hat. :ugh:

[beamer]

First Choice - in theory yes, in reality....................................a gentleman of course would never wear a hat indoors whilst hats have no place near aeroplanes (FOD); that leaves the car park and the walk between the bus and the terminal front door ! Lady pilots of course are not required to wear hats which of course is sexist.

[IRRenewal]

Excel airways do as well. I handed mine back about a month ago. What a relief!

[Nigel_Normal]

BA but usually Captains and ex-forces only!

[Tubbs]

Loganair uniform policy stipulates the wearing of hats in and around the terminal, but not airside for FOD reasons. Mine looks ridiculous but does a fine job keeping my baldy heid warm and free from rain.

[Blackcap]

BRAL or is it BACX or is it BACON or is it Flybe or BACF? Did and do - but keeps the bald patch etc warm!

[Carnage Matey!]

BA but usually Captains and ex-forces only!

Neither and I wear the hat. Usually only pedants who want to make an issue out of being rebellious who take offence at wearing it.

[mad_bob]

We get hats at flybe but don`t have to wear them if we choose not to. :ok:

[fmgc]

Used to be my one act of non-conformity then they got rid of hats!!

What a pisser!:{

[Meeb]

I was appalled when I changed companies and never got a hat, how the hell do you stop looking like a drowned rat without one... especially in Scotland?

Glad to see flybe give you the option... :ok:

[Daifly]

What else can pilots now wear at a jaunty angle...?! :ooh:

[arem]

<<BA but usually Captains and ex-forces only!>>

How do you get a F/O to wear his hat - promote him to Captain - as we always used to say.

Was always useful at slip hotels for putting ties, epaulets and all those odds and sods in.

[Shagtastic]

I've got a Policeman's Hat...:oh:

Shags

[Mister Geezer]

Saw a copy of a chap's roster on the inside of their hat!

[Aussie]

The VS lads dont wear hats????????

Aussie

[b17heavy]

The Americans are the kings of crap hats, seen better on parking attendants :}

[Red 69]

I've got a shiny helmet :O

[Aussie]

So anyone? Virgin Atlantic, do they wear hats?

Aussie

[George Foreman]

My second airline so far and neither wear hats. Only my gran has ever commented, seeing me head out of the house "don't you have a hat, dear ?"

Anyway, I'd be top heavy...I don't have a sufficiently large chin.

George

[MaxReheat]

B17
Americans look like pilots; parking attendants look like parking attendants. And if you've not got a '50 Mission' variety with a nom de plume like that, suggest change your callsign.:ok:

[Jinkster]

VS do not wear hats.

[low n' slow]

Hats are hillarious.
I wear mine UNDER my headset. Makes me look like I'm flying a B-17 or something heavy and dangerous :}

/LnS

[silverhawk]

epaulettes on a raincoat or wearing a peak cap, either of those say so much

[matkat]

I was once told the only pilots who wear hats are wan#ers, must say have never been disapponted so far:p

[Smokie]

epaulettes on a raincoat or wearing a peak cap, either of those say so much

We have a few here at our Airline that do both!

[b17heavy]

Oh come now Max my boy, I’m not that old but I am familiar with the 50 cap. About as familiar as you are with reheat, the Miles M.52 and shock diamonds I suspect….:ok:

[jeff748]

The plastic envelope-sleeve-thing on the inside of your hat is a good place for a kid pic... May take a bit of altering but a good place. Also good for weather briefings, late flight plans, etc...

[SKI]

Aeroflot hats are fantastic or the hats worn by the soviet officials in red square on Mayday parade...also German U boat commanders come a close second!

[TRY2FLY]

The plastic envelope-sleeve-thing on the inside of your hat is a good place for a kid pic..... - or a spare condom or two !!!:E :}

Think the EI guys can be seen sporting hats with big shamrocks on the front .

[Max Angle]

Hats now optional in bmi, didn't make much difference to me as I never even bought it in to work much less wear it. The hat was utter c**p anyway, might have considered wearing a better one.

[Tandemrotor]

"Which company has hats"?

And other 'riveting' reads on the 'Professional'?? Pilots Rumour Network! :rolleyes:

Wow.

[Fix Info]

Gents, and all others,

I used to not wear my hat simply as an act of rebellion. In the depth of Scandinavian and North American winter I wore it to and from the car park because it was bloody cold.

I constantly got a bollocking for not wearing my hat by ex-Air Force Captains, and continously ran the risk of having a letter placed in my file by our pet-peevish Chief Pilot.

One day many moons ago I had a rebellious hat discussion with a colleague at a fellow airline. He said that he always wore his hat. It was for only one reason. He got sick of spending valuable time thinking about the hat issue. If individual airline regulations say that you must wear a hat, then simply wear the hat. I spend my time thinking of pretty girls and fast cars instead of thinking about hat issues.

However, there's a more grave issue at hand. Every time I step onto the tarmac for a walk around I put my life and limbs at risk. I've stopped counting the times I was almost run over by a service vehicle driven by some half-wit from a far flung country where the concept of personal safety seems all but forgotten. Every so often I read about some poor soul who ended his career, or his life, in such a violent manner.

Therefore, when I do my walk around, I use my jacket, with lots of shiny gold bars, my ridiculously tall hat, with an equally ridiculous amount of gold on the the brim, and a high visibility vest (which happens to be regulation many places). I do this in hope that some dimwit will pay attention to my existence, and possibly realise that there's a pilot walking around, and maybe, possibly, perhaps, take that extra step of caution, so not to run me over.

Regardless, it's worth the small effort. It's also compatible with company regs, and keeps me away from wasting any of my limited mental resources on such a lame issue as weather to wear a hat or not.

[TRon]

I love the guys with their bars on their raincoats....

[bruppy]

Both Turkmenistan & Uzbekistan airways issue Hats to be pround of, a top surface area large enough for odd jump jet (or two) to land upon, loads of shiny gold braid & a gleaming (see your own reflection) brim, oh it almost makes you want to enlist!!!!

[G-LOST]

bmir have outlawed hats, although a few die-hards refuse to put them away in the cupboard. I have 2 bmi hats, the old faithful which was a seat track buffer and rain shield for many moons, and a brand new one that I ordered when I heard the rumour of their demise, the latter for my hat collection. One day, I envisage retiring to spend my twilight years yelling at the missus from a huge oak-panelled study with pictures of my youth on all the walls and an enviable collection of hats on a shelf. On reflection, the old faithful would be a worthier, if shabbier, showpiece to impress anyone sad enough to visit.

It is fair to say that the only useful purposes for my hat were:

- keeping the cold and rain at bay,

- indicating when I needed a haircut (the hat gets too tight),

- sticking a list of door codes and other useful trivia to the inside.

The latter saved my hide on many occasions when my favourite hostie got sick of me ringing up for the crewroom door code.

Nevertheless, much as I hated the damn thing, I do miss it...:{

[dash6]

I'm with FCA and would love to have a hat! Unfortunately our uniform people seem not to be able to supply one,at present.Perhaps there is no demand? Personally I feel that the present uniform,without a hat,is a crap look.Perhaps we would look better in "hoodies"? And my balding pate would be hidden.:cool:

[beamer]

Dash

Please have one of mine - I can offer with or without scrambled egg.......

[CamelhAir]

What's the problem with hats and epaulettes on raincoats? If we want to be treated like professionals, we should look the part. If's bad enough having mol trying to turn us into bus drivers without helping him by self-downgrading the image. Have some self-respect.

[Thumperdown]

CamelhAir
I completely agree!
The pax have no idea as to our ability to fly an ILS or NDB. Their perception of our profession is purely from what they see in the terminal building.
I wear my uniform with that in mind
Regards
Thumper

[judge11]

CamelhAir

I'm in complete agreement with you, too. If the company says you wear a uniform, no matter what it might be, then wear it. If it includes epaulettes and hats then so be it.

[remoak]

I used to wear bars on my raincoat, for the simple reason that it identifies you on the ramp to all those people who want to talk to you, ramp agents, refuellers, etc.

Of course then the hi-vis nazis had their day, so now the bars are a bit irrelevant... until I can work out a way of glueing them to the the hi-vis... :}

Hats... wore one for the first few months in Loganair, many years ago, then gave up after the third time I had to chase it across the ramp at ABZ. Haven't worn one since, although the kids like to use them for dressing up in. Of course, if the hat was of a decent quality, I may have continued wearing it, but most of them are horrible.

[747-436]

Both Turkmenistan & Uzbekistan airways issue Hats to be pround of, a top surface area large enough for odd jump jet (or two) to land upon, loads of shiny gold braid & a gleaming (see your own reflection) brim, oh it almost makes you want to enlist!!!!

The ex Russian states all seem to like big hats, have been to a Krygystan and Azerbaijan and the Hats are huge, some look like the ones you see on TV worn by North Korean Soldiers!! Must be a communism thing!

[silverhawk]

Self respect I already have. My professionalism is not displayed by wearing 'look at me' hats and apaulettes on raincoats.It is displayed by my demeanour and day to day attitude.

If you want respect then earn it. Don't wear a badge of office and just expect respect.

At one place where they still issued hats they only had one in my size, very very small. It was about 20 years old already, but never used. Full of metal and it used to set off the beeper every time. I was able to kid the FOs it was real gold because it was so old. That was the only benefit I ever saw in a hat.

[yeoman]

It used to be a respectable profession. Like everything else, the issue of no hats is a cost one, as are plastic buttons and see through, boil in the bag, plastic crap uniforms that fall apart.:ugh:

Early in Line Training I got a fearsome bollocking from "The Man" for wafting about with my jacket undone and you know what, he was right. At least then you had to make an effort to look like a sack of ****e tied together with bailing twine - now all I have to do is put my uniform on. As for my raincoat, even the local; garage couldn't do any alterations to it and the dog now sleeps on it.:zzz:

As for respect, I would venture to suggest that you need a bit of self respect first. CRM handles the inter crew respect even if you pitch up in jock strap and spurs and maybe, just maybe I wouldn't have to spend half my life sorting out pissed up morons if they saw a bloke dressed in a way as to give the impression "don't screw me around and I'll get you there safe and quickly.:ok:

So, bring back metal buttons, gold braid, decent, well cut uniforms, epaulettes on rain coats and hats. Let's get a bit of self respect back into this once proud profession.:mad:

[remoak]

...and like any other profession, it has a uniform, the purpose if which is not to enhance the ego of the wearer. It is simply to identify who is in charge, whether it be the flight deck, the cabin, or the ticket desk. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "look at me".

It always makes me laugh, the people who think it is so cool to try and have the largest "negative ego" when it comes to uniforms. If you have so little self-respect, by all means try and hide your profession. Maybe you aren't particularly good at it...

Personally, I am proud of what I have achieved, and see no problem with identifying myself accordingly... along with policemen, ambulance drivers, and others who occupy positions that they have had to earn. Not so sure about McDonalds uniforms though...

Maybe the antipathy towards uniforms is indicative of the whole trend towards budget this and low-cost that. If you want to be thought of as a glorified bus driver, by all means carry on; the public will think of you in exactly that way, and any authority and standing you might have had will be gone.

There was a time when a member of the public would never dream of challenging an airline captain on flight-related issues. Now it is commonplace, and this discussion is why.

[Old King Coal]

The only time I ever thought a hat might be useful were those occasional instances when the (ex) Mrs OKC wanted me to give her a damn fine rogering whilst I'm wearing my uniform... uhm, and come to think of it, she's not been the only gal that's wanted me resplendent in my Company 'threads' (preferably including a hat, no doubt perched at a jaunty angle) whilst doing the horizontal boogie... strange creatures women! ;)

[Tooloose]

That should remove any doubt about the destination of the Gobshight of the Year Award for 2007. Well done OCK.

[CamelhAir]

Well said Remoak.
Half of these replies must be music to the ears of mol and co. They must be thinking that, not only are we trying to turn them into bus drivers, with attendant T&Cs, but they're willing, in the name of "coolness" it seems, to discard as many identifiers of authority and respect as possible. Remember the cause and effect gentlemen. If you're perceived to have less and less authority and professionalism, it makes his job easier to justify ever less money and the removing of authority (but not responsibility) from the crew.
As was well pointed out, the public know nothing of your flying ability, they judge you purely from what they see.
I understand some of this anti-unform "rebellion" is a form of "**** the company", and while I fully subscribe to almost any and every potshot to be had at many companies, I submit that using the uniform as a form of protest is to miss the target altogether.

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

I arrive at the airport using a different building from the pax. I use a different checkpoint to get through security, even if I had a hat I would not wear it while doing the walkround- so the only time when the pax are likely to see me, it is irrelevant. By the time the pax board, I am in my seat, probably doing paperwork. A boilersuit be overkill for the walkround, so in terms of presenting a professional and reassuring image to the pax, the best I can do is have an ironed shirt and comber hair- that is all they are going to see as they board, even if they happen to look up as they cross the tarmac.

[MrBernoulli]

I was once told the only pilots who wear hats are ******* , must say have never been disapponted so far:p

From the profile;Occupation:
Aircraft technical rep

Salesperson? So what the heck do you know about flying anyway?

[Atishoo]

I think Pilot hats are shhhhexyyyyyy

But then tell me a girl who DOESNT like Uniform eheheheheh :ooh:

[JW411]

An old friend of mine sadly found himself partly in Boston harbour in a DC-10 through no fault of his own (he was completely exonerated). It was dark and it was winter and it was snowing like hell. He threw on his raincoat to assist with the evacuation but found himself twice being manhandled into the back of an ambulance.

He kept insisting that he was the captain but the burly medics simply did not believe him and assumed him to be a passenger in a state of shock.

The reason was that he did not have his bars on his raincoat so the rescuers simply did not recognise him for what he was.

In this case, not having bars on his raincoat was a very bad move.

[remoak]

that is all they are going to see as they boardWell unlike you Mr CarltonBrowne, I greet my passengers as they arrive at the door (the ones that aren't late, at least), and I say goodbye when they disembark, all from the cockpit door. I am easily observed from the terminal windows as I perform a walkaround in my shiny and completely useless hi-vis tabard, and, if there is a delay or a tech problem, I often go up into the gate to speak to the pax. Most pilots do not use a different building for arrival and departure at the airport, and a large proportion don't have the luxury of a crew security point either. They are VERY visible.

But it isn't really the point - this is about taking pride in yourself and your profession, and being seen to be doing so. If you want the respect of the travelling public, you have to earn it in ways that are visible to them - they don't care about your paperwork.

If you don't want the respect of the travelling public, you won't get it, and your life will be increasingly filled with off-task distractions like dealing with drunks, having pax question your every decision, being treated with contempt by management, and so on.

You get to make your own bed in this game...

JW411, good illustration. It is important to be able to identify key personnel on the ramp (or accident site). At a Company Council I once served on, we suggested that the hi-vis tabards have our rank on the back, just like the Police or Fire guys do. Of course, it was deemed too expensive... go figure.

[silverhawk]

Rank on your hi-vis!!!!!!

What about stripes on your trunks in case anyone has the audacity to forget who is the captain around the pool?

Just get your shoulders tattooed and be done. Don't ever get demoted though!

Just a small reminder, this thead is about hats. They are not practical and should only feature in 70s porn movies.

[boeingdream787]

Air India and its low cost subsidiary(surprise surprise),Air India Express have some pretty decent hats.Dont like the "scrambled eggs"on the captains headdress though.Would be enough to deter a potential captain..........:}
BD

[Yakshimash]

I heard of a captain who had a customised car number plate that read 'J41Capt'....Rumour has it he got demoted back to an FO, whoops!!!:oh: Aren't hats just for the military.....

[Tempsford]

Talking of hats, about 20 years ago, a mate of mine who was an ex WAFU was on a boat trip round the Grand Harbour in Malta. He kept glancing over the side of the boat and one of the crew noticed this. 'Have you lost something?' asked the crewmember? My friend replied 'Yes, my hat'. The crew member said 'when did you lose it?' to which my friend replied
...'1941'

I'll get my hat....


Temps

[David_Lid Air]

I cannot understand why so many have issues with uniforms. It exists for a purpouse, if you do not like it then take another job!

It seems like everyone wants to be a rebel these days.

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

remoak, you fly your aeroplane, I'll fly mine. My company does not require, or even suggest, the captain's presence at the door during boarding. Space would be an issue anyway.
Furthermore, during a 25 minute turnaround, the loss of briefing time would be a great way of delaying the flight.
As for uniforms in general, David Lid Air, spend a few years wearing them, observe the year-on-year deterioration in quality as each successive replacement is bought from a cheaper supplier, and then let us know if you are still so keen to be seen in it. Our uniforms are so cheap they have to be replaced every 18 months- even then, after about 7 or 8 they start to look very tired indeed. Two pairs of trousers and one jacket is not enough to be able to cycle them around and keep them looking good.

[Thumperdown]

Remoak said
"But it isn't really the point - this is about taking pride in yourself and your profession, and being seen to be doing so. If you want the respect of the travelling public, you have to earn it in ways that are visible to them - they don't care about your paperwork."
Couldn't agree more!
Scruffy pilots are like waiters with dirty fingernails.
Of course some pilots don't take much pride in their performance either ;)

[Flying_bear]

regardless of whether your a rebel, a ******* , traditionalist or just don't care what others think, this thread still hasn't said who does and doesn't wear hats, so far bmi aren't sure, bmir don't logan air do, i'm sure there are more airlines out there.

FB

[b17heavy]

Ah come on silverhawk – hats are cool, in 70s porn or not. Why so serious ? What about tashes, along with flares and a large wedge of cheese… We are getting so boring. Previous posts have talked of the usefulness – storage devices, rain protectors and of course wearing so people can tell us apart from the bus driver.

[Ready]

Well said Carlton Brown.
But I have to admit, pilot hats are the perfect size and shape for cat or dog food.
And what a pain when deadheading.....in uniform or not in uniform.

[remoak]

ready (or not)

And when pax are boarding and deplaning, stay the cockpit, actually where you belong. We're in 2007 and not 1947.The company requested that we do so. Some did, some didn't, but the pax certainly noticed. In every subsequent customer satisfaction survey, customers overwhelmingly appreciated being greeted by the captain. But that was in an airline that actually cared about it's pax, I assume that you work for a loco, where nobody gives a s#*t about the people that pay your salaries.

[aerobat]

In days of AirUK and F27s one line of the evacuation checklist read,
"Captain................Dons hat".

[David_Lid Air]

Ok I havent worn a uniform yet.. But I know that the uniform goes hand in hand with the pilot profession

I dont think it is a good idea to let go of the uniform, would you like to fly with a guy that has a ugly t-shirt and a pair of dirty jeans? it would look damn unproffessional to me, and I think it would look bad in the passengers eyes too.

But I can understand that people dont like crappy uniforms that doesnt hold together more than a few days.

But here it seems like pilots want to fly in their jeans and shirts.

There are many jobs that require uniforms, with stripes or not it is still a uniform.. So what is the problem really? our are at least better than the Mc Donalds one...Still...

[dash6]

Thanks beamer. I'll take it with scrambled egg, 6.7/8 or whatever that is in metric.
I think the hat goes well with the jacket,but is probably a bit OTT in shirtsleeves. Lack of hat as a form of rebellion? Sounds like the fifth form.:p
Speaking of old fokkers,there was a bloke who only ever ironed one side of his shirt,cos that was all the customers could see......
Dons Hat.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

That bit about the Air UK F27 captain donning the hat...
Tried to find the old check list, to no avail.
Didn't it say something like:
Dons hat, takes crash ax, clears cabin?
Or is that a point of confusion with a 748 evacuation? :confused:

[Cyclone733]

18 months training, 70k and no guarantee of a hat at the end of it. I knew I should have become a traffic warden...

[Ready]

To Remoak:
Well, my point was that some (too many actually) pilots take advantage of situations like greeting pax at boarding time, to show off with their stripes, hats, and scramble eggs etc,. Come on, sometimes it's too obvious!
To answer one of your comments, yes I'm a pilot, just like you. Unless you have more than 11 type ratings or more, I have more than you. Unless you have 20,000 hours or more I have more than you. Unless you fly a 744, the airplane I fly is at least as big as the one you fly....no bragging here, no joke.
Moreover, unless I could do a walkaround and a cockpit prep in 15 minutes or less, I don't see how I could find time for pax greeting (to board 300 pax +, figure it out yourself), no matter how much trust I have in the good First Officers I fly with.
You were saying that it's in your sop to greet pax (hat on of course) and that not all of your collegues do it. There is a good reason not to do it, it's because the cockpit is the right place, most of the time anyway, to manage a better and a safer departure. Situation Awareness comes before showing off. I'm not putting everybody in the same basket here, please.
Back to wearing a hat or not, it should be optional like some airlines do. This is what we see around the globe anyway, one guy wearing it, next guy not wearing it (probably me). I have never worn my hat outside home base in more than five years, and all the young FOs do not wear it when I do not wear it myself, and I always get the same comment "Thank you! Thank you! for not wearing that piece of @#**, this is something of the past, Thanks!". At home base a bit different, but one verbal warning so far, I can afford a couple more.
I'll remove the anal comment Remoak, in case I misjudged you.
Cheers!

[Tubbs]

'UNIFORM' - the clue is in the definition

[Thumperdown]

Ready said
"I have never worn my hat outside home base in more than five years, and all the young FOs do not wear it when I do not wear it myself, and I always get the same comment "Thank you! Thank you! for not wearing that piece of @#**, this is something of the past, Thanks!". "
Well that says it all! - Obviously ill disciplined & prepared to break the rules but only when not being watched - a poor attribute for such a senior commander. Setting a bad example which is a poor influence to the young FO's and encouraging them to follow suit. :hmm:
"At home base a bit different, but one verbal warning so far, I can afford a couple more."
Your colleagues will see you for what you are and will hold you in less regard for your double standards.
This has nothing to do with your ability on the flightdeck but forget the verbal warnings - it is their trainset, if you don't want to play by their rules, get a job somewhere else.

[Ready]

No I do not fly a 747. Read again. And forget the number of type ratings I have, but when somebody assumes that I'm not even a pilot because I feel that it's time for hats and stripes on raincoat to go, I felt that I had to clarify a bit, that's all.
And I agree, I'm ill disciplined when it comes to wearing my hat.
I guess we all know the expression "If the Hat fits, then wear it"
Ready for more flak.

[remoak]

Ready

My post duly edited also.

As your dick is apparently far larger than mine (although I do have more type ratings), you are of course entitled to your opinion... however, mentioning your qualifications is no different to poncing about in a uniform for the wrong reasons. QED.

Our SOP was not to greet pax with a hat on, as hats were optional in that company. I never wore one, never even took it out of it's wrapper.

You must have a lot to do when planning your departure. All I do is a walk-round, check the fuel, get the clearance and clip the plate on the holder. All the other stuff comes later, during the checks. More to the point, greeting pax has absolutely nothing to do with Situational Awareness, nothing is going to kill you whilst parked at the gate. I suppose you could say that greeting the pax actually helps SA, in the sense that you can spot the problem pax early.

If your company requires hats, and you refuse to wear one to the point of receiving warnings, one has to wonder what other rules you are breaking...

[Dan Winterland]

Ready If your company requires hats, and you refuse to wear one to the point of receiving warnings, one has to wonder what other rules you are breaking...

Not wearing a hat is a bit different to busting minimums. In my company we are required to wear hats but often don't as baiting the manager who has the job to write to us to tell us to wear our hats is the only bit of sport still available to us.

[b17heavy]

Is there to be a duel - remoak and ready. Or are we to just whip the old boy for a measure contest ? Come on ladies greeting pax with a big grin is always fun, with bars, hat and feather duster…

Dan man my hat of to you sir :p

[remoak]

Nah, we shouldn't fight... we should be big boys. Maybe even men... :}:}

BTW I did once wear a hat whilst greeting pax, but it was a red hat with a white fringe and a flashing bobble thing on the end of it.

I agree that baiting managers is good fun.

I'm sure that ready is a good judge of what constitutes a sensible rule, but in the end I just couldn't resist. Sorry...

[yeoman]

Hats:

Thomsonfly don't.

Garuda used to insist we did whilst doing the Hajj run.

[Ready]

Remoak,
I just went quite a bit back on this thread before posting here one last time, and have to admit, had I read your very first postings, maybe I would have held a different speech, maybe not. No @rse licking here. Maybe, only maybe, we're not that different after all, maybe you see it very differently, it's ok. I know where you and some other guys stand, and you know where I stand. It's ok. If some of my comments offended some guys here, my apology, nothing less, nothing more.
What was this thread all about again?
Happy Landings to you all.
Ready (or not), I'm done done.

[TACHO]

Keep it up chaps... this is highly entertaining. :D

[rhythm method]

BA! :} (first week of having mine, the buttons were falling off the jacket, and the lining from inside the trouser leg was shredding). Less than 12 months later the buckle detached itself from the belt (No!!!! I have actually lost weight and dropped down a notch! :} )