BA IR issues [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

twisted-diamonddolly

16th Dec 2006, 16:20

CM - don't think you know what you are talking about. joint statement from amicus /bassa below.

BASSA and AMICUS 15 December 2006
AMICUS HAVE ASKED BASSA TO PUBLISH THEIR LETTER TO THEIR MEMBERS. THEY HAVE ALSO ASKED ALL THEIR MEMBERS ENSURE THAT cc89 HAVE THE CORRECT ADDRESSES FOR THEM. THEY ALSO WANT IT KNOWN THEY FULLY SUPPORT BASSA's POSITION ON ALL OUR POINTS OF CONFLICT.

Dear Colleagues,

As you are aware your union posted a list of failures to agree and impasses at the most recent special NSP held on the 9th November 2006. The following list of issues affects ALL CREW across ALL BASES served by Amicus.

Breakdown in Industrial Relations

For the past year your representatives have battled with the employer at every day forums where unreasonable behaviour has been the rule of thumb; imposition sweeps away any chance of discussion, compromise or mutual agreement. AMICUS find it increasingly difficult to engage with BA on any points which are controversial, costly or both.

Merger of Post and Pre ‘97 Main Crew Pay Scales

Amicus, as your union, has addressed this issue with British Airways at each and every pay negotiation since 1997. We support our colleagues on the new entrant pay scales and believe that the benefits of the new entrant starter rates have borne fruit for BA.

It is our view that with the first group of crew directly affected by these scales, having now reached the top incremental pay point, it is appropriate for us to address this issue on behalf of our members once more.

Purser - Junior Swap on 747

This initiative, we believe, speaks for itself and the ramifications for the future are catastrophic. We believe this is the beginning of an initiative by British Airways to remove all but two of the supervisory crew onboard their aircraft.

Promotional opportunities are being removed for our members in BA and this we find unacceptable. A clear example of this can be seen in the imposition of a Purser in charge of the A 321 on EuroFleet.

Preferred Bar Operators

This is a thinly veiled attempt to dismantle our current seniority and bid system. We know from feedback that this system is the preferred method of determining your work position on board.

Your agreement allows you to have an input towards your onboard working position and we are not willing to sit back and allow your agreements to be eroded.

Will this be where British Airways stop YOU from having a choice?

Manchester Base closure

We do not believe appropriate consultation or involvement of the TU side was observed in the decision making process when BA chose to close the Manchester base.

With the sell off of BA Connect which part of the business is next? Gatwick? Heathrow EuroFleet? Heathrow Worldwide?

900 hours

We are all affected by this issue. The increase of unusable 24 XX has resulted in the loss of earnings and roster stability for our members.

BA was fully aware of the introduction of this piece of legislation yet appears to have taken very few steps to prepare for the impact this has had on our crew community.

Downroute report time

This issue affects YOU the cabin crew directly due to the increase in security checks/procedures post 9/11 that now result in our reporting anything from 1.5 hours to 2 hours before departure. BA has identified that the cost of this increased time being adsorbed by you, the crew, could amount to anything between 6 and 14 million pounds per annum in saved payments.

YOUR cabin crew agreement state clearly that you are on duty one hour prior to the scheduled departure time.

EG300

All parties accept that this process is not working to its fullest potential. We believe it is being used as a disciplinary tool as opposed a supportive mechanism to improve attendance.

Fixed Links

The trial that was conducted at Heathrow approx 2 years ago was proving unsuccessful, and was suspended due to the imposition of a single purser in charge of the A 321. Crew’s refreshment breaks were affected and now it is being revisited as a cost saving to BA. We believe this proposal will contravene certain aspects of the working time directive.

As you can see the list of disagreements is not exhaustive but at the present time BA has resisted all of the approaches made by your representatives to resolve these issues. In conclusion we would like to offer BA the opportunity to enter into meaningful and productive discussions to resolve the issues mentioned above. Should BA fail to respond to this request within 7 days from the date of this letter, we will have no option but to consult with you in a more formal manner.

If you have moved or your details have changed, please let the offices know so we can keep you up to date with developments.

Yours sincerely,

Amicus Cabin Crew Committee.

theskiesthelimit

16th Dec 2006, 21:01

PAX AGENT
Dont worry i am sure you will be enrolled and will be able to vote yes!
it is confirmed that our BASSA reps have been escorted out of LGW and LHR BA premises, with the full support and applauds of their members present!
I think this situation is unacceptable
strike is inevtable! as most of us as BA crew will vote yes!!
let's bring it on

eiggy

21st Dec 2006, 15:40

TO: All cabin crew

We recognise that this is a very difficult time for cabin crew and it is important that you have the opportunity to air and share your views, ask questions, and get honest and open answers from me and my team about any issues that relate to the strike ballot.

From 15:30 today, Thursday 21 December, you can do this on a new online Cabin Crew Strike Ballot Discussion Forum.

This forum gives you the opportunity to ask a question or air an opinion. Other crew members can add their views to yours, creating a discussion 'thread'.

My team and I will be looking to answer your questions online and contribute to the discussion. We will be watching out for new posts during office hours seven days a week during the Christmas period, and beyond. We will answer as many questions as we can, and as soon as we can, recognising that this will depend on how busy the bulletin board gets.

This forum is available for all cabin crew to use. Common sense rules apply – we will not censor content because we do not like what is being said, but we will remove posts that are defamatory or abusive.

The forum is easy to use, and can be accessed via ESS from home or overseas, as well as in the Compass Centre.

To get to the forum, either:

Log into ESS (https://essmail.baplc.com/Redirect/my.baplc.com/login.do) with your BSAFE password and follow the "Cabin crew strike ballot forum" link in the Crew section). If the link above does not work use https://my.baplc.com/login.do

amtba

21st Dec 2006, 19:53

BA managements are obviously ****ing themselves by setting up this ESS cabin crew strike ballot forum, BASSA has its own forum for its members on www.bassa.co.uk (http://www.bassa.co.uk) the ESS forum is biased and has only been set up to try and Brainwash crew into thinking Simon-Telling-Lies and Mark Lotsa-Hassell have the crews best interest at heart, they have not, If they are committed to working with the trade unions why have they kicked BASSA out of the Crew report centres? If you could work on an hourly rate, which will mean a huge pay drop, imaging you would have to work around a 12 hour day just to earn the same ammount as a Lunch allowance, If you don't stand up to Willie Walsh that is what his next plan is, Dont let him get away with it. VOTE YES

Carnage Matey!

22nd Dec 2006, 10:34

And there was me thinking BA had dropped the hourly rate proposal. Still if it was anything like the SFG hourly rate of 2.40ish per hour you'd have to work almost 3.5 hours to earn the same as a breakfast allowance, which is, ooh, a little less than the time it would take to do a CDG and back that would earn you a breakfast allowance. If your maths is that good I'll have 16 beers and 4 red wines from the crew purchase and I'll leave the 17p I owe you in your drop file.

Boy In Blue

22nd Dec 2006, 17:15

Guys,

I have read the pros and cons of possible industrial action being discussed on here. If you want to win you will need public support and the backing of your passangers. This is crucial. From what I have seen of your pay scales you are doing quite well. I am a cop and earn £2000 per month. My brother in law is a fire fighter and gets £1800. We do 40hr weeks, work nights and weekends. We are both aware that we get paid more than nurses who have to endure dealing with total nightmare people in casualty departments all over the UK. If you were to strike I believe you will not get public support at this time.

I am not advocating you let your management walk all over you but if you strike and loose you could suffer badly. I went out with an LHR WW girl a few years ago. She was intelligent and one of the smartest, quick witted people I know. A fantastic advert for you and your company. She worked hard for her money and deserved it. However, there are many who are envious of your position within the airline industry. You are an elite bunch but I bet the company could fill all you're jobs, with other airlines qualified staff within two weeks. They would not get the same quality that you DO give the company but do you think they really care.

Whatever you decide to do good luck. You will always have my admiration and support thanks to a fantastic time with one of you're colleagues as mentioned above.

Lucifer

22nd Dec 2006, 18:14

Lucifer

22nd Dec 2006, 18:16

Ok guys i'm crapping myself now!!! I'm in LGW SF and put my application in about 3 weeks ago! I've still not heard anything and have sent emails on ESS as to my application but to no avail! My next plan was to go and see them in person but having been in twice (inc today when i had just flown trans-atlantic and was shattered) and both times no one was there!!! Now they've been given the boot where do i stand if they walk out?
Yes! Hurry up and get in whatever it takes, as you don't want to be on the wrong side of your colleagues if it does happen.

SuperBoy

23rd Dec 2006, 12:24

I am a cop and earn £2000 per month.

We are police/safety officers onboard the aircraft.

My brother in law is a fire fighter and gets £1800.

We fight fires onboard the aircraft

we get paid more than nurses who have to endure dealing with total nightmare people in casualty departments all over the UK.

We get paid more than nurses and have to endure dealing with heart attacks, strokes etc. etc. on aircraft all over the WORLD without the facilities available to them.

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Disclaimer: The above post is not meant to insult or demean anyone or any persons chosen profession. ;););););););)

Carnage Matey!

23rd Dec 2006, 14:01

We are police/safety officers onboard the aircraft.
How many times a year do you use the restraint kit?

We fight fires onboard the aircraft
A raging warehouse inferno is not really the same as an oven fire. Lets be honest, you only get a days training in how to put on a smoke hood and discharge some BCFs into an oven, lav, or behind a panel then a refresher every three years. It's stretching it a bit to compare yourself to a firefighter.
We get paid more than nurses and have to endure dealing with heart attacks, strokes etc. etc. on aircraft all over the WORLD without the facilities available to them.
Whats the big deal about doing it all over the WORLD? The aircraft could be somewhere over Scotland or somewhere over Africa, you still have the same resources on board. Sure you have first aid training, a medical kit (only half of which you can use), and an AED, but you also have the back up of fully qualified doctors and nurses at the end of the phone 24/7 and the first thing you do when the situation looks iffy is make a PA for any medically qualified staff on board. Why bother with that if you are better at dealing with these things than a nurse?
I think you are pushing this comparison thing a little far, especially as the fire training isn't actually any more complex than what I did for my Boy Scouts Firefighters badge (honestly, it isn't, and I did that when I was 14. Had to put a real chip pan fire out too!).

TopBunk

23rd Dec 2006, 15:46

Carnage

Well said, but I must criticise your CRM, mate.

Don't you know that if you criticise BA CC they will require so much TLC or they will be so stressed out that they will need a 'lack of crm payment'. As for what is seen in routine SEP tests, well, say no more, it will be alright on the night, I hope!

About time some teeth were introduced into recurrent testing, imho.

Boy In Blue

23rd Dec 2006, 16:52

We are police/safety officers onboard the aircraft.

Fair enough. However, there is a difference between dealing with relatively wealthy people who are generally happy to be going on holiday etc and dealing with junkies and violent street robbers. Much as I appreciate the quality of SLF is getting poorer you do not have to have body armour, CS spray and a baton to deal with you're customers - thats easyjet!

We fight fires onboard the aircraft

You do not have to cut mangled people out of cars and the rest of the point has been made by CarnageM

We get paid more than nurses and have to endure dealing with heart attacks, strokes etc. etc. on aircraft all over the WORLD without the facilities available to them.

No violent, spitting drunks with stab wounds in Club I expect.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Disclaimer: The above post is not meant to insult or demean anyone or any persons chosen profession. ;););););););)

I really appreciate you saying this and you can see my thoughts on Crew above. :ok: :) :ok: :)

The basic point I was making though was that you will not get public support. Without this you will fail if you strike. I would suggest that the vast majority of the public do not think you perform the role of a police firefighting medical expert. Please do not think I am being critical. Its just an observation and I still enjoy flying with you boys and particularly you girls.

SuperBoy

24th Dec 2006, 09:04

Boy in Blue,

I understand what your saying I was making a lighthearted comment. :)

CM,

Where to begin. It would however be a waste of my time as you are obviously set in your opinions.

Flying_Sarah747

24th Dec 2006, 11:31

Carnage Matey, what's your problem? We are all aware that we are paid better than most airlines, and have better conditions, but what's so wrong in us wanting to keep up those standards?

We have obviously made a life for ourselves based on our current earnings and working conditions, so if they're taken away from us, there are some of us who won't be able to pay the mortgage anymore, won't be able to pay off our loans etc, etc, etc.

If I ever have to fly with you I think I'll off load myself! You've obviously got a chip on your shoulder about something. Just get over it!

To everyone else...Good luck guys in what ever we decide to do and here's hoping that we will still be able to keep what we have!

P.S. Carnage Matey, what do you feel about the pilots pension issue??? Bet you're gonna fight for that hey? We all want the same thing in the end...Just think about that next time you feel like going on one of your little rants.

HZ123

24th Dec 2006, 12:56

Sarah is correct in what she says. However life has moved on with far to many competitors offering the same or cheaper fares and better levels of service. I regret the passing of a BA of the 70's and 80's but that was the last time I recall us being the best and selling what the customer wanted. Whatever our views may be we will either accept change which must amount to loss of monies and conditions or find a proper job. Our case is not helped with CC always moaning and groaning about how complex and trying the job is, when we all know it is easy therefore make the most of it. How quickly we forget BA connect and their demise.

Get Smart

24th Dec 2006, 16:20

Excuse me? Without wishing to stir up a hornets nest, I'm full-time WW LHR crew on new contract. If I bring home £1800 per month, I'm over the moon! Only cleared £1066 this month (no leave, full-time). Whilst it's not always that bad, it very often can be. My average is about £1600 at the most after tax.

Taking more than a weeks leave is not an option. I'd loose to much money for lack of flying and my pay would drop beyond financial survival.
I live in fear of being sick as the loss of pay is again, way too much. My basic if I don't fly isn't more than £890 per month!

Even a lovely £1800 a month doesn't go far when you have dependants, a mortgage, a car, running expenses of a car, inflated utility bills and council tax, insurances, food (one must eat). I'm wondering what else Willie would like to take from us? If they succeed, I simply cannot afford to continue working for BA which I desperately don't want to happen.

The amount of 24 hours I'm now getting on my roster are also a financial killer. I'd get more money if I were a cop or a fire fighter - whom incicentally, also aren't paid enough. You guys do an amazing job. I admire and appreciate your dedication so please don't think I'm having a go at other peoples occupations as I'm not. Just don't think it's a bed of roses at BA. :=

This is not a 'poor me' thread. I love flying. I love my job at BA. I love the crew. I have fun at work and work extremely hard, but my point is, is that if WW wants to take more off people like us, there's no future. This is my third major airline, and it's the worst pay. I was earning more money (pro-rata) 10 years ago at EK!

As for getting the pax on our side, perhaps consider what you'd prefer on board your flight to JFK when you've paid a fortune for your club world tix? A 20 year old Vicki Pollard with attitude plus or a 35 + professional, experienced, groomed, mature crew member who enjoys the job? Because that's all that BA are going to get when they don't value what they have! :uhoh:

This thread has been the only place I've been able to find some valuable info so thanks to those who have provided it. :ok:

Carnage Matey!

25th Dec 2006, 01:35

Carnage Matey, what's your problem? We are all aware that we are paid better than most airlines, and have better conditions, but what's so wrong in us wanting to keep up those standards?
Nothing at all. I've never suggested you should take a pay cut, just that you should do some more sectors per month for that money instead of spending so much time sitting around at Compass.
We have obviously made a life for ourselves based on our current earnings and working conditions, so if they're taken away from us, there are some of us who won't be able to pay the mortgage anymore, won't be able to pay off our loans etc, etc, etc.
Nobodys talking about taking money off you. BA only reintroduced the hourly rate idea when BASSA demanded a huge pay rise by moving new contract pay scales to match the old contract ones. The hourly rate proposal has now been withdrawn so who is threatening a pay cut?
If I ever have to fly with you I think I'll off load myself!
But you have flown with me, and you didn't offload yourself. It's very easy to charicature people who don't agree with your view as "cabin crew haters", especially in an anonymous forum. The reality is that perfectly rational people, who have a fine relationship with the people they work with, can disagree with each others views and can certainly disagree with the BASSA propaganda. PPRuNe is not the BASSA forum, and here we are allowed to mention the working practices of cabin crew and BASSA without being accused of appauling [sic] CRM.
P.S. Carnage Matey, what do you feel about the pilots pension issue??? Bet you're gonna fight for that hey?
Damn right, just like most of the crew on my trip yesterday who don't like the idea of Willies pension raid on the staff. In fact, just like BASSA too.
We all want the same thing in the end...Just think about that next time you feel like going on one of your little rants.
Untrue. If you wanted to continue uncompetetive practices I could almost bring myself to support you, based on the principal that we need better than the average cabin crew to maintain our brand differentiation. The reality is that you not only wish to continue your uncompetitive practices, you want to make them even less cost effective by increasing everyones pay! Thats the reality of the situation. You can accuse me of ranting all you like, the reality is that you simply don't like people telling you the truth. I'd like you to provide value for money for BA. Is that too much to ask?

Con-Trail

25th Dec 2006, 03:34

Get Smart,

I really sympathise. I just hope that aspiring CC will see the new contract for what it really is: cr@p!

Eventually things will turn against WW. I just hope that the awareness of the whole situation amongst CC is as good as on this forum.
I think the best thing to do is talk about it on your trips... and get those votes in!

All the best

C-T

SuperBoy

25th Dec 2006, 11:27

CM,

Here is an interesting link.

http://www.futureairlinepilot.com/salaries.html

If you compare the VS and BA salaries for say a LH captain I'm sure you can deduce that a captain max salary at BA is GBP29 776 pa more than at VS.

I'm not denying you what is rightfully yours but that is a big percentile difference.

If you are so convinced that the company needs to stay competitive by cutting away at cabin crew t&c's maybe they should cut back Flight crew t&c's to be more competitive.

We are not asking for more than what we have now. We are only asking not to lose what little we have left.

I am sure you will come up with some clever, witty, clearly opiniated reply but you are entitled to it as you have mentioned numerous times before.

Like I said I know you guys deserve your terms and conditions. Don't begrudge us ours.

Carnage Matey!

25th Dec 2006, 11:47

Yes very interesting, particularly as it was last updated in January 2004, which is very nearly three years ago. Since then Virgin have had a pay rise of nearly 30%, which puts their top Captains pay at, oh what a surprise, virtually the same as BA! Also their Captains are only contracted to fly a maximum of 750 hours per year, not the 900 hours that BAs pilots are contracted to fly, not to mention that it takes 24 years to reach the top pay point in BA, whereas Virgin Atlantic haven't even been in business 24 years. So I guess that makes us fairly competitive. Like I've said before, it you want to examine out t&c's bring it on. We are benchmarked, we can show you exactly what we cost in comparison to other airlines and it's the going rate. Can you say that?

By the way, you are asking for more than what you have now. You are asking for the new contract pay scales to progress to the old contract pay scales. Asking for more than you have now is a central part of BASSAs ballot.

SuperBoy

25th Dec 2006, 21:24

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Merging the old and new contracts in your eyes might be asking for more but there should never have been different rates of pay for people doing the same job for the same airline.

You would feel the same way if you were paid 50% of another employee doing exactly the same job as you. Alas you don't else you might be singing a different tune.

As for the going rate of cabin crew. I am earning less now working for BA than I did working for another airline. My choice I know.

As I said before this discussion with you is pointless. It is however interesting to see your keen interest in the CC T&C's. It must be awful having to work with people you so clearly despise.

traveller5

27th Dec 2006, 08:40

From a public point of view, I'm sure most people will not support BA cabin and flight crews' overpay and current conditions! However, in their place, most people would want to keep the easy money given and would be liars to say otherwise. That considered, I'm not convinced a strike will achieve much other than more public inconvenience. BA's last 3 years of disruption -for whatever reason - is now as regular as the disruption seen with Alitalia, for example. The disruption, togther with a main hub that cannot cope with the current number of flights (waiting for a gate after 12 hours flying etc) and BA's very poor punctuality can only serve to permanently damage the airline's reputation.

I think we know the crew will strike, and so good luck to them. However, they need to think carefully about the timing and should aim to hit the heart of BA business for maximum effect, i.e. Premium travel. If the Monday morning premium longhaul traffic is dented, rather than half term family holidays, BA will soon react.

As for Carnage Matey, he seems to be a very bitter driver.

Carnage Matey!

27th Dec 2006, 12:05

Merging the old and new contracts in your eyes might be asking for more but there should never have been different rates of pay for people doing the same job for the same airline.

Not in my eyes, but in the eyes of anybody numerate. You are asking for an increase in the rates of pay for anybody who stays in the job more than 7 years. That is an increase in pay, no ifs, no buts. Whether somebody doing the same job ets more is neither here nor there. Thats the contract you signed. Striking for more is striking for a pay rise.

It must be awful having to work with people you so clearly despise.

As a community I think you really have to get over this precious sort of behaviour. It is a stock repsonse from many that if somebody doesn't support you it is because they despise you and wish to persecute you. Well it's wrong and its just a way of burying your heads in the sand and refusing to discuss the issues.

From a public point of view, I'm sure most people will not support BA cabin and flight crews' overpay and current conditions!
As stated previously several times, BA flight crews pay is very competitive. Please extend us the courtesy of actually reading the thread before chipping in with uninformed comments.

jerrystinger

27th Dec 2006, 13:52

BA cabin and pilot staff want, want, want from the company, but give very little in return. Does the company get value for money in terms of staff productivity? No, and hence the current "issues".

Carnage Matey!

27th Dec 2006, 14:05

BA cabin and pilot staff want, want, want from the company, but give very little in return. Does the company get value for money in terms of staff productivity? No, and hence the current "issues".

Another poster who doesn't bother to read the thread. If you would like anybody to take you seriously jerry then pay attention. Flight crew are not ballotting the company for more. In fact perhaps you would like to tell us what 'more' we are currently asking for? And once again, BA gets up to the maximum legal flying hours per year for its flight crew at a very competitive rate which even the management do not dispute. So please, if you can't be bothered to bring something worthwhile to the debate then go back to planespotters.com where people might be interested in what you have to say. Take traveller5 with you.

3Greens

27th Dec 2006, 14:17

luoto

27th Dec 2006, 15:09

"A 20 year old Vicki Pollard with attitude plus or a 35 + professional, experienced, groomed, mature crew member who enjoys the job?"

The problem is that SOME passengers prefer to fly a carrier who has more of that sort than your breakdown of BA CC... and sadly an increasing percentage of customers fall into the self same category, even if they have carried the VP attributes into middle and older age :(

Air travel has become too much like a bus nowadays, combined with dropping standards and ... ;(

miche2

27th Dec 2006, 15:28

I think this forum is bad your aggressive blood pressure Carney Matey! I'm not quite sure what you resent in life (apart from everyone on this forum), but hey, no-one is perfect. I remember flying with you once when I worked at BA....the good ol' days of being paid thousands for doing, well, am not quite sure really.....you were the one sucking the lemon, remember?

You'll be pleased to know that some of the easy money I earnt now goes towards your wages while I sit as a passenger.

Safe flying...

Carnage Matey!

27th Dec 2006, 15:37

Nothing aggressive in my posts miche, just calm statement of the facts. The only aggression here is from all the emotional, hysterical types who can't seem to handle the presentation of facts and prefer to make emotive accusations about people despising or resenting other people, or just prefer to post rhetoric and soundbites without ever presenting supporting information. My blood pressure always was, and remains, comfortably low, but I thank you for your concern.:)

Get Smart

27th Dec 2006, 20:48

Tut tut Luoto! Pax can fly with whoever they like so please continue to enjoy your bus journey!

Premium pax that pay premium prices may have slightly higher expectations than yours. Is that ok? After nearly 20 years flying, my colleagues and I, pride ourselves on being just that ... professional. Naturally you have your own valued opinion of BA crew, however, the GPM's, filled out by you - the pax, reflect that they choose to be frequent flyers with BA becasue they like the level of service they receive. You may beg to differ with the millions of pax that fill our planes though? :=

Maus

28th Dec 2006, 17:43

Hi Carnage Matey!
Of course the management is trying to take money from us! Directly, by taking away breakfast allowances at LGW, and indirectly by removing the possibility of promotion for us. I don't want to strike, but I hope that a threat to strike might bring the management team back to the table to take our concerns more seriously and not just tell us that they will be imposed upon us whether we like it or not. I am in this job for the longhaul (ho ho), and I want this airline to be world-class. But it kinda sticks in my throat when our management are being given huge bonuses and I am being asked to tighten my belt.

I don't feel I am overpaid in the slightest. I recently enquired about a job in teaching and was surprised to learn that teachers earn more than me. So do nurses. I am not saying I am more qualified (although I have a degree - I know, my choice to do this job...but a job I KNOW I excel at..), but that lovely BOY IN BLUE mentioned that we are not trained to nurses levels or firemen's standards. And they also do shift work. While this may be true, few jobs expect you to do a day shift on day 1, a night shift on day 2/3, another day shift on day 4 and another night shift on day 5/6. And then expect you to do CPR on someone (yes, I've done that); be prepared and trained enough to fight a fire; console a breaved passenger, take the cheese tray up to the Flight Crew and exchange niceties with them; speak to a foreign passenger in their tongue; and all the while, stay awake, with a smile on your (groomed) face despite the fact that your feet are killing you.
No-one is saying that we are Florence Nightingale, and this is a job a lot of people choose to do because they love the life-style. I am good at my job, I enjoy interacting with my flight-and cabin crew colleagues and passengers alike. I have a brain and earned more temping as a secretary while I awaited the outcome of my interview, but there are not that many people out there that are equipped to do this job as well as I - or many of my lovely, hard-working colleagues are.
So yes, I am going to fight to keep my working conditions from deteriorating.

triple x

28th Dec 2006, 21:33

It is time for crew to teach the managment a lesson. We might not achieve must on this strike but hey we will let them know that we are not going to settle for less.
Oh yes we do have great conditions & agreement what is wrong in just want to keep them.
I just wanna keep my agreements and pay. I dont want anymore of what I am getting.
this is not a joke we are serious VOTE YES:D

keeperboy

28th Dec 2006, 21:50

Exactly Triple X.
We should not need to justify why we earn what we do, or the agreements we work to.
Yes, wages and agreements are amongst the best in the industry.
Yes, happy, well paid staff = bumper profits for BA.
Yes, purely because of the pay and agreements is why I chose to work for BA over Virgin, Britannia etc etc.
And Yes, I will certainly strike to maintain these agreements (and I wouldn't call myself a huge fan of BASSA either). In fact, out of all the trips I have worked on since rumours of the strike began i can count on one hand the number of collegues who will not be voting 'yes'.
Although to be fair BA have made it clear that they are NOT proposing and changes to our agreements. The main issues are the attendance management process, pensions, removal of a purser on the jumbo, an increase in pay increments on the post '97 contract and the correct application of us flying no more than 900 hours in any 12 rolling months.

This new management we have need to be shown that they can not walk over us. They cannot get away with 'negotiating' an attendace management process with BASSA and once it's agreed simply change the rules to benefit them.
Management whinging that we are too expensive while they award themselves with GBP75million bonuses. :=
Management that take months to sort out the simple issue of a woman wearing a cross around her neck.
I'm certainly not going to get on my soapbox about how poorly paid I am or how un-fair it is. Because it is not true. I am paid well, which is why I left Virgin for BA. I get more time off after trips, which is why I left Virgin for BA. Its also why I am so, so much happier when on the aircraft when I am at BA. Which I guess in some small way is why we make so much money.

GS-Alpha

28th Dec 2006, 22:24

I find it surprising that someone can find it surprising that teachers earn more than cabin crew. I hope this was a pleasant surprise?

I can understand someone wanting to protect the terms and conditions that they currently possess. I can also understand an employer wanting to reduce those terms and conditions as much as possible. BA are to some extent held over a barrel by their cabin crew because there are so many of them to replace, however, the bottom line is that a very large proportion of the general population could be trained to do the job, and also would like to do it. Would they do such a good job or be so dedicated if they were earning less? There in lies the crux of the argument. Unfortunately, BA management do not really care about that. They do not think of money being an incentive to do your job well. They just want to pay as little as they can get away with.

Apparently BA want to save £37m pa from cabin crew. Well that is not many days of strike action, but at the same time, Willie has a point to prove to strikers, so how far will he go to break the cabin crew? This is the most important question. One thing for sure, BASSA need to be totally convinced that their action is legal with all the Ts crossed and the Is dotted.

I personally think Willie will succeed in his mission to reduce cabin crew costs, but it will take him longer than he hopes. He has just pretty much replaced the whole workforce of long haul Gatwick crews by using 6 month temporary contractors at Heathrow and upping recruitment at shorthaul Gatwick for a while before hand. Could he do something similar in reverse for Heathrow?

One thing for sure, he will not stop at the cabin crew. Every workgroup is under attack. He just needs to do them one at a time, so that he can spread half truths about how one individual workgroup is fouling up the progress of the whole company when all other groups have agreed to changes!

Skylion

28th Dec 2006, 22:39

Some interesting exchanges,- and interestingly not so much as a nod towards the further battering LHR, the BAA and BA have taken in the customers eyes over the pre Christmas fog disruptions. Both the BAA and BA are lucky that there was a lot of fog about the fog and underneath the "Act of God, not our fault" cover is the fact were a lot of shortcomings despite many efforts to overcome them. BAs separate rostering of pilots and cabin crew due to different base turnaround times is just one of the problems. A further strike will just accelerate the customers growing dissatisfaction with LHR, the BAA and BA, all of whose fates are closely interlinked. The customers are not interested in the pros and cons of a dispute or any other factors behind disruption. They are just getting sick of it .Think about it. If you are travelling in 2007 who would you book with and which airports would you use for the best chance of getting where you want to with a minimum of potential hassle? The logical answer is a serious threat to BA's future,- and your jobs.

jerrystinger

29th Dec 2006, 10:51

GS-Alpha makes a sound point - crew costs WILL be cut significantly. It might take longer or it might mean a few days inconvenience because of a strike, but it seems WW has already decided.

LHR_777

29th Dec 2006, 12:46

Hi Guys n Gals,
Just a quick question - are they any definitive dates yet for proposed industrial action? I'm hearing 'the end of January' on the radio (LBC 97.3) but wondered if anyone knows anything more?
I'm asking because I have a family trip to Canada around that time and don't want to get stranded.
Best wishes to all our crews. You have to fight your corner accordingly. Good luck. :)

Off Stand

29th Dec 2006, 13:41

I just want to correct something GS Alpha said. The workforce wasn't replaced at LGW by the 6 month temps from LHR. At the end of their 6 months, they had the option to leave or go to the Single Fleet. There was nowhere near enough of them to 'replace' us. If the Single Fleet at LGW hadn't have happened, most of us would be happy to stay at LGW and the recruitment drive wouldn't have happened. There was a massive recruitment drive in the summer for the new fleet, not euroLGW.

LHR_777, there is no date as yet. However, the union (BASSA) have to give a minimum of 7 days notice to BA of strike action and the strike has to happen within 28 days of this notice. All ballot papers have to be in by 12th Jan, so you can safely say it'll happen (if a yes vote is received) between 15th Jan and 12th Feb.

keeperboy

29th Dec 2006, 14:17

That's right there were 400 temps recruited for the summer (there are 10,000 permanent cabin crew employed at LHR). At the end of their temp contract they were given the option of commencing a LGW Single Fleet contract under the LGW SF terms and conditions.

LHR_777 no dates have yet to be announced. I guess shortest possible notice = maximum disruption. However, the ballot will close on Jan 12th. The results will be announced at a union meeting on the 15th. By law, BASSA then needs to give 7 days notice to BA and any action must be undertaken within four weeks.

Just one point to make: THIS INDUSTRIAL ACTION IS NOT ABOUT CHANGES TO OUR AGREEMENTS, TERMS AND CONDITIONS. NONE HAVE BEEN IMPOSED (with the exception of changes to the attendance management process).

HOWEVER, relations between BA and BOTH cabin crew unions is at an all time low. We are basically being balloted on a 'breakdown in industrial relations'. This IS a crucial vote. Both BA and BASSA are awaiting the result of the ballot with great anxiety. if there is a low turnout for a YES vote, then that will be the end of BASSA's strength and BA WILL BEGIN IMPOSING CHANGES TO OUR TERMS AND CONDITIONS.
The main purpose of this ballot is to show BA management that we ARE united and that we will NOT accept the sort of 'bully boy' tactics being employed by some of our management (particularly one ex QF manager recently recruited).

The true cost of any industrial action to BA is incalculatable. BA cannot afford another PR disaster.

Although Willie Walsh as CEO has significant sway at BA he still needs to answer to the BA board of Directors. He will need to tread, therefore, very very carefully. Do you meet halfway with the unions? Or do you risk turning the perception of BA into another Alitalia or Olympic? There is still alot BA can do to win the siutation. The union has thrown as many issues into the pot as possible so that it will gauge maximum YES votes from crew. At least 1 or the 12 issues will effect every individual crew member. Whispers have started that management will start doing deals on certain issues, fragmenting support. There will be swayers that will throw in the towel for their own gains.

Carnage Matey!

29th Dec 2006, 14:49

An interesting post keeperboy. May I ask in your opinion what would constitute BA meeting BASSA half way? Over the last 5 years BASSA has vehemently opposed virtually every change in working practices BA has suggested, and IFS have been shielded from most demands for change by Mike Street. Now MS has gone there is huge pressure on IFS and other former Street departments to start contributing to the savings. BASSA decry every effort to change as an attack on their members. Where is the middle ground and what are BASSA members prepared to give up in order to meet BA half way?

GS-Alpha

29th Dec 2006, 15:01

How many of the original long haul cabin crew have elected to remain at LGW? I believe it is a very small number. Therefore long haul LGW cabin crew were effectively replaced.

Off Stand

29th Dec 2006, 16:32

We didn't really have much choice. The 3 options put to us were, a) take serverance, b) change onto the LGW SF contract or c) transfer to LHR. If you speak to many LGW WW crew, many would have seriously considered staying had we not have to change contract and our terms and conditions.

Your post implies that we were all 'replaced' by the temp crew from LHR, this cannot be the case as there are simply not enough of them. In fact, I believe very few opted to stay with the company and move fleets to LGW.

GS-Alpha

29th Dec 2006, 18:37

Off stand - from my original post:

"replaced the whole workforce of long haul Gatwick crews by using 6 month temporary contractors at Heathrow and upping recruitment at shorthaul Gatwick for a while before hand."

So I wasn't suggesting they were simply replaced by the temporary contract crew. It was a mixture. I also agree that you did not have much choice. And this too was my point. Willie will work out how to do things without giving you much choice. The attack on your terms and conditions will only happen when you are at market rate. Currently, you are not. I do not blame you one bit for trying to protect what you have, and I will personally support you, but whilst you might win the odd battle, you are unlikely to win the war.

Get Smart

29th Dec 2006, 20:13

I don't think a strike will make it any better for either side and no doubt, BA have will do all possible to avoid it.

My piont is that, no matter what occupation you do, you choose it because you enjoy it. Majority of BA crew like their jobs. We don't want to be school teachers, nurses or police officers. If BA get their way and totally erode our contracts to nothing, many of us will be put in a position where we just can't afford to work there anymore. Lets face it - when T5 comes along, BA will be saving plenty of money on box payments alone.

It's a real shame for people to be put in a position of possibily having to leave a job because their employer is only focused on one thing. People who enjoy their jobs breed happy customers - we all know that.

Sure .... We can be replaced. However, BA have already struggled to recruit crew particularly for the new LGW SF as the contract is crap. Many of the temps I spoke to have no intention of staying at LGW so BA have wasted their money on them and they will have to be replaced too.

The best way forwrad is to get talking again for all our sakes. The most worrying thing in my opinion is that WW has a reputation as a fiece formidable character who simply wont back down at any price!

I desperately hope I am wrong. :{

747-436

30th Dec 2006, 06:21

Unfortunatly the only person who will win out of any Cabin Crew strike will be Richard Branson who will sweep up a lot annoyed passengers.

Maus

30th Dec 2006, 11:43

GS-Alpha: Yes, it was a pleasant surprise about the teachers' salaries, as I have always heard about how they (and other key workers) earn so little - and I think it's a disgrace. I also live in London, so I know how high the cost of living is here. The reason why I was pleasantly surprised is because I have had enough of all this now and wish to re-train as a teacher, so I will not be taking the drop in salary that I feared.

Let me make it clear that I do not want a strike, but I want to make my voice heard in order that my management acknowledges my concerns. But the management have put themselves in a dangerous position when their employees feel they have nothing to lose anymore.

Carnage-Matey: BASSA is not a few militant people in an office, but representatives of the cabin crew community. So it is incorrect to say that we have not met BA management halfway on some issues: Our reps urged us not to accept the EG300 (turns out they were correct), but we as a union agreed to have it implemented; our reps urged those as LGW not to accept the SF-LGW, but we agreed to it (again, to our peril); post Sept 11th, we as a union agreed to help cut costs by signing up to the TEMPORARY removal of a crew member from our longhaul aircraft - and that has become a PERMANENT removal, bringing us below the level of crew complements on airlines such as Singapore, Malaysia, JAL, ANA, Virgin, etc. So it cannot be said that we don't make concessions.

I have been looking with interest at the other airlines' threads on this forum and have noted that the spin about BA cabin crew being the most expensive in the world is utter nonsense. Perhaps those on the old contract used to be paid above industry rates, but that is no longer the case. I have worked for the company for 10 years and I am paid pretty much the same as Virgin, less that Emirates and JAL, and more than Easyjet. I signed a contract prior to starting my course at BA and at the end of the 6 weeks, was given another contract to sign - cutting my salary effectively in half. I was told that I had to sign it or leave. That was a great start to my flying career. (One would wonder how that was legal, but 'zay hef vays and means'...) But at least there was the prospect then of going for promotion to increase my earning potential. That option has now been removed from me. I am working harder than ever; downroute time off has been reduced; the crew complement has been reduced; transport has been reduced (Central area bus and the 285; I can't afford a car - I know: boo-hoo, poor me); I have never called in sick when I have not been genuinely ill, but the EG300 makes me sufficiently scared that I operated to SFO recently with a streaming nose, sneezing on those poor Club passengers; some of our hotels have been down-graded (yes, I know: poor us, but it is the thin edge of the wedge, isn't it?); and the list continues. Yes, I know change is inevitable in our share-holder driven world, but at some point, enough is enough. Contributors keep on pointing out that other air crew have worse conditions - and that is exactly the point. When there is a united front and you are working for a profitable company that can afford to reward its managers and directors with the kind of bonuses that have been bandied about, it would only be someone very short on brains who would say: "after 10 years of loyal service you wish to make changes to my working conditions and pay, and remove the possibility of promotion for me? Sure go ahead." I have nothing to lose anymore. I love my job and know from passengers, cabin crew and flight crew alike, that I am very good at it. But I will put up a fight to protect my corner until WW DOES get his way (which I belive is inevitable) and replaces us with the like of McDonald's employees. I am going, I accept that, but not without a fight.

LHR-777: I am in the same boat as you. I am due to take my annual leave over the time of the proposed strike, but it is a price I am willing to pay. Hope you and your family get away ok.

HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!

LHR_777

30th Dec 2006, 12:02

LHR-777: I am in the same boat as you. I am due to take my annual leave over the time of the proposed strike, but it is a price I am willing to pay. Hope you and your family get away ok.

HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!

I appreciate and admire your stance, however, it's not a price I'm willing to pay when I have to be somewhere for a specific date, so my money has gone to American Airlines for confirmed, commercial tickets instead. I just don't need the uncertainty of either not getting to Montreal, or getting stranded when I'm in Toronto and not being able to get back home in time.

Carnage Matey!

30th Dec 2006, 12:23

Carnage-Matey: BASSA is not a few militant people in an office, but representatives of the cabin crew community. So it is incorrect to say that we have not met BA management halfway on some issues: Our reps urged us not to accept the EG300 (turns out they were correct), but we as a union agreed to have it implemented; our reps urged those as LGW not to accept the SF-LGW, but we agreed to it (again, to our peril); post Sept 11th, we as a union agreed to help cut costs by signing up to the TEMPORARY removal of a crew member from our longhaul aircraft - and that has become a PERMANENT removal, bringing us below the level of crew complements on airlines such as Singapore, Malaysia, JAL, ANA, Virgin, etc. So it cannot be said that we don't make concessions.

I have to disagree with you. BASSA IS a few militant reps in an office who don't so much represent the cabin crew community as lead them by the nose to BASSAs own agenda. Take the recent farce of the strike ballot. It was decided on a show of hands of less than 1% of your community and issued before anybody knew what it was about. Now we have the place being plastered with "Vote Yes" stickers but half the members don't know what they are voting yes for. The BASSA Newsletter was such an appalling work of fiction I thought I could have been reading the Daily Sport! "FACT" my @arse!

Your knowledge of history is somewhat selective too. BASSA recommended you voted for EG300 and you took the money BA offered, which is why it's a bit rich for you to know complain that you don't like it. I don't know about the background to SFG. I do know that people like to bring up the removal of the 16th crew member from the 747 (note that this was at a time that the seating capacity was reducing from 395 to 351 or 295). That may indeed take us below the crew complement of Singapore, Malaysia, JAL, ANA, Virgin etc but they also squeeze a lot more passengers on their aircraft and Virgin regularly fly one or more crew members down.

I have worked for the company for 10 years and I am paid pretty much the same as Virgin

Please, don't even go there. Anyone who's seen the figures knows that is untrue, unless after ten years you regularly take home less than £1300 per month.

What I would like to see is a list of all the savings BA crew at LHR think they have made in the last five years. As far as I can see they consist of one crew member of the 747.

Maus

30th Dec 2006, 13:50

Carnage Matey, you must be reading different BASSA missives to me. I don't know where this idea has sprung from that the breakdown in IR is a recent event and we haven't been banging our heads against a brick wall for years. As you well know, with our flying schedules and the fact that many of us commute or live quite a distance from the airport, it is very rare that we are all able to attend these meetings. That is why we have the BASSA forum and noticeboards on the internet. We feel safe and secure enough to raise our concerns with our reps (who, as you know, are also crew and, therefore, share the same concerns.) I have never been led blindly by my union and have always made my own decisions based on information I can glean from the tools at my disposal. I have never been militant in the slightest, but if even a reasonable person such as myself, is contemplating strike action, then there must be something wrong with picture. I feel very let down by the management. I agree some crew were not informed about what they were voting on, which is why a newsletter was dispatched and, while it may not be in the tone you or I (being reasonable, rational people?) might correspond, that is what we pay them for: on the one hand I have my management telling me lies and reneging on agreements, and on the other I have reps baying for blood. So I stand in the middle and read both sides, draw on my own experience and then make my decision. Too many of us in the crew community feel the same for it to be dismissed as a militant few.
Regarding the EG300, BASSA did not tell me which way to vote but asked us to read all the facts carefully before voting. Which I did, according to my conscience. Ooh, gosh, I think I may have contributed to saving the company some money there. Careful! Now the management has reneged on their agreement (something that I believe the flight crew community also has issues with. I flew recently with a 747 Captain who said, "The day the first Flight Crew is dismissed under EG300, is the day I strike". Maybe that was just his opinion, though.) and people like me who are genuinely ill, feel compelled to come to work no matter how unprofessional we appear to our passengers or how it may affect our cabin and flight crew colleagues down the line. (c/f my SFO)

The removal of Nos. 16 and 11 was another cost-saving we agreed to in the light of BA heading for bankruptcy post Sept 11th. They promised to bring them back when we were back in the black again, but now, only because of pressure from our union do we have them re-instated on 10 of 73 747/777 destinations. And the reason given was due to those flights being incredibly taxing, rather than anything to do with seat configuration. Let's be clear, though, that removing World Traveller seats does not equate to less work. They replaced those seats with Club seats, albeit less seats. I regularly choose to work in Traveller now as it is less demanding than the Club service. I have face-to-face interaction with a World Traveller passenger an average of about 7 times on a transatlantic flight; I have interact with a Club passenger a minimum of 20 times on that same flight. The Club service on a high-J is almost invariably the last to complete the meal service. The removal of the 16 and 11 has resulted in a significant increase in the work load.

I mentioned that after 10 years with the company I am paid the same as a Virgin crew member. And I stand by that. I have 2 friends who work for Virgin (one has been working for 2 years, and the other for 3.5 years). Sometimes they take home less than me and sometimes more. As I mentioned, I AM on the new payscale. I said "AFTER 10 YEARS". If I had applied for Virgin instead of BA, I would most likely be a Number 1 by now and reap the resulting increase in my wages. At BA, I have been giving chicken and beef out now for 10 years and it's getting a little dull. Not even First trained yet. And no Promotion in sight for a great many years. Hence the change in career.

LHR-777: I, like most of the crew community, do not want a strike - I just want my managers to start managing the company coffers correctly and keep their dirty mitts off my money. That doesn't help you, I know. But I am not taking any chances with my holiday either, which is why Virgin, via Touchdown, is getting my money. Sad, isn't it?

WeLieInTheShadows

31st Dec 2006, 00:10

C.M.
I guess your not one of the "I wish BALPA was more like BASSA" pilots then, when EG300 was agreed to by BALPA long before it was by cabin crew. Indeed there are many pilots out there who believe BALPA could be "a bit more mlitant" now and again.
I'm not saying negotiation isn't the best way forward, and admire the way BALPA has carried on during the pensions negotiations. Something I think our unions could learn a lot from.
Obviously BALPA has it's faults too and I'm sure Rob Hall shared a few of them with good old BA when he sold you all down the river.
But less said about that one the better I guess.
Not many ex union reps from the crew community in management jobs now that I know of.......
I'm in CC89 by the way.

Carnage Matey!

31st Dec 2006, 00:24

"Rob Hall selling us down the river" is somewhat subjective, and certainly not my view. There were inevitably aspects of our pay deal which lead to unforeseen disadvantages but on the whole we came out of the whole thing very well as a community. I haven't seen the cabin crew unions make such gains any time recently. EG300 is a pain, it was signed up to without consultation by a single BALPA rep and he was thrown out at the next elections. Lesson learned there, but its frankly not that big a deal to me. We had less than half the sickness of cabin crew before EG300, despite our more stringent medical requirements, and still have much lower sickness levels. EG300 has not changed the way I or any of my mates operate. We are our own judges of our fitness to fly and we do or don't according to how we feel and not because of the fear of an interview with a junior office dweller. If some people feel intimidated by that well thats unfortunate. I don't. Personally I don't want BALPA to be more like BASSA and I wouldn't be a member if they were. I don't want to be told what to think and I want to achieve something more than just saying no.

PS The reason there aren't many ex-CC union reps in management jobs is because they lack the appropriate skills. I think that says more about the calibre of your reps than ours, something which is reflected in the results they achieve. I never fail to be amazed by the appaulling[sic] spelling in the BASSA newsletter.:)

miche2

31st Dec 2006, 08:23

Off Stand

31st Dec 2006, 14:38

Just had a thought. If and when the cabin crew do go on strike, will the aircraft continue to operate with just cargo in the hold and thus potentially still make some money?

TopBunk

31st Dec 2006, 14:52

Unlikely, BA 'management' aren't that clever.

I agree that it would sense, even if not a profit, to keep regular contracts sweet, and maybe even pick up some extra work, but I refer my friend to the answer at the top:mad:

tofster

31st Dec 2006, 21:13

Hi guys, I'm an Amicus member of crew at LGW SF. I totally agree with the strike, I would strike for the breakfast allowance at LGW alone. I know that a few of my colleagues at LGW are also Amicus members and in favour of striking however, we have not been part of the ballot process. Does this mean that we don't have the right to strike and if we do, do we have a leg to stand on as it seems to be a BASSA thing? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Off Stand

31st Dec 2006, 21:34

Tofster, i am afraid you cannot skrike until your union has balloted for it. If you do, it iwll be considered as an illegal strike and thus could lose your job. Sad, but true.

I only asked about the cargo thing as earlier this year when we were short of crew, I believe aircarft were sent out empty but packed full of cargo and thus were worth while sending there and back. Obviously, it would only be worth while to some destinations.

keeperboy

1st Jan 2007, 00:34

I think that apart from the many issues that are being balloted on, the overriding dissatisfaction is with the ways our (new) management seem to work.

Come in - slash slash slash - obtain massive goody bag of £££ - leave.

We never make enough profits (despite being one of the most profitable airlines in the world). We are never working hard enough. We are too expensive. This is all we ever hear.

Carnage, i totally agree with a lot you say about BASSA (this despite being a BASSA member). They are somewhat inflexible and militant and i wouldn't like to be an employer having to deal with them.

Saying that, even AMICUS have publicly stated that the BA management are treating them like crap and that more 'formal' discussions (read notification of ballot) will need to take place if BA isn't more forthcoming.

I'm not going to get into discussions about the number of Pursers we have (yes, we do have too many of the 747) or the loss of a crew member post 2001 etc. I believe these are all side issues.

The real issue (for me personally) is EG300 and our inept management. Management that don't seem to be able to see further than their next bonus/profit share.

EG300 is a farce. How can an operation under general anaesthetic NOT be discounted under EG300??? I had my appendix out 3 months ago and was off ten days. At my Attendance Review Interview I was told I had 'triggered an occassion' because they only 'discount' 48 hours after a general anaesthetic. Are they saying I should be back flying after 48 hours of having my appendix taken out??

I believe that BA and BASSA should engage an Independent Arbitrator.

Carnage Matey!

1st Jan 2007, 15:45

Carnage Matey, despite your disdain - verging on bitterness - towards cabin crews, you seem to spend more time on this section of the forum than any other. You would appear to have such a specialist knowledge of BA cabin crew terms, conditions and agreements that it would surely guarantee you a top score on Mastermind - with no passes!
Would it not be of more (professional) use for you to be on the pilot pages talking over things like the most appropriate moment to press autopilot or even how to get passengers from A to B with the cabin crew on strike? When the crew do go on strike, you'll probably have to make tea yourself and while pressing the "brew" button does require some skill, it is as easy as presing "autopilot". PM me, if you need further instructions.

Well you're flexible if nothing else Miche2. Having already pointed out the stock response of most crew is to say that I hate them, you subtley change it to "disdain - verging on bitterness". However as I previously stated, insults don't really at to the debate and are more suited to the BASSA forum than so please refrain. Do you ever wonder how I have such a good knowledge of cabin crew agreements if I dislike the crew so much? Somebodys got to tell me about them. I could discuss more things on the technical forums, but there are plenty of qualified people to discuss the appropriate time to engage the autopilot and those who blatantly fib or are selective with the truth are quickly exposed by others, so I tend to fill that role here instead! Anyway, I know how to work a bev maker and an oven thank you very much (you know we fly aircraft around empty sometimes). Can you tell me the necessary prerequisites for autopilot engagement?

jerrystinger

1st Jan 2007, 20:52

carnage matey - yawn!

Maybe it's time to get back to the issue in question.

flybywire

2nd Jan 2007, 14:17

I would strike for the breakfast allowance at LGW alone. I know that a few of my colleagues at LGW are also Amicus members and in favour of striking however, we have not been part of the ballot process..
Tofster, you're not alone there. I suggest you join us in the conversation on the BA cabin crew forum (via ESS) the last point is all about LGW breakfast (and sadly is the only point about us, if you do not consider EG300, and the only one that mentions us).
I would urge you to join us as the more the better. Both WLITS and myself have started a thread asking for clarifications. The response I got from Mike-somebody has left me without words.
(BTW WLITS I have posted my reply to mr Mike on your thread)

And no, until Amicus ballot us, Amicus members cannot do anything "legal".
It looks like if a strike is going to happen I will already be on mat. leave, which is a shame, for Mike-somebody's WORDS alone I feel like striking, but not the silent way, the proper way like Alitalia, AirOne, Volare, Meridiana and AirEurope used to do in Italy - going in the streets making life difficult for those people who really COUNT.

flybywire

2nd Jan 2007, 16:08

Can you tell me the necessary prerequisites for autopilot engagement?

Aircarft ABOVE 1,000ft radio and in trim.

Carnage Matey!

2nd Jan 2007, 16:14

Asking a 737 pilot is cheating.:= Go and sit in the naughty corner.:}

flybywire

2nd Jan 2007, 16:20

Asking a 737 pilot is cheating.:= Go and sit in the naughty corner.:}

Hahahaha! :E I would love to be spanked right now, but I have to disagree.....he's away on a long trip....I just happen to sit in the F/D VERY often, and I do revise for his sims with him (I am just a veeeeeery helpful, understanding girl!!) :ok:

eiggy

3rd Jan 2007, 01:16

O.M.G I thought this was a serious forum for serious people! Enough about spanking and naughty corners....please....or else! :8 I'll have to get naughty!!!!!!!!!!!!

flybywire

4th Jan 2007, 11:25

O.M.G I thought this was a serious forum for serious people! Enough about spanking and naughty corners....please....or else! :8 I'll have to get naughty!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hahahahaha! Serious but naughty people are what we need! Even the longest doubles (fix-linked even:ouch: ) feel shorter than some boring MAN there& back's when you work with seriously naughty people on both sides of the bullet-proof door!! :E

Good, healthy naughtiness is always welcome on any one of my flights, and we always end up having a laugh (even when flying with some sort of mummies!!) :}

These IR issues have been spoiling my otheriwse reasonably good mood, so it was time for a break - thanks CM for giving me the opportunity to have a laugh! On that note....Tea anyone? Oh wait, I have to look up in my manual how to operate the Brew switch first :E :E :E

FBW x

Volant77

4th Jan 2007, 19:47

I just need to add to this forum that at LGW BA cc don't earn more than £1100 on average, so that should put things into perspective now.

flybywire

4th Jan 2007, 20:51

I just need to add to this forum that at LGW BA cc don't earn more than £1100 on average, so that should put things into perspective now.

So true. But then if you've had a look at the ba forums on ess there's only ONE point (the last) that mentions us. And it's the breakfast allowance that they want to take away from our short haul flights (and not give it to us on long haul) for an increase in pay of 9p per hour.:rolleyes:

Sporran

4th Jan 2007, 22:00

Keeperboy,

Good post - balanced and fair.

The expression 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter' would seem to size up nicely the often found divide between cabin crew and flight crew.

I have had some very interesting discussions recently with cabin crew when down route. It would be fair to say that the vast majority know even less than I do about the issues involved. I have even found a very senior cabin crew member who was adamant that the 'hourly rate' issue alone would make her vote yes.

A lot of the pilots are amazed that BASSA have chosen to lump so many issues together - obviously to increase the chances of a yes vote!! It saddens me that so many appear almost gung-ho about the possibility of going on strike. I understand that if BA offer to accept even one of the ballot demands, then they would have excellent legal grounds to have an injunction granted against any strike action.

reverse thruster

5th Jan 2007, 09:19

From the first time I took up a role in a customer service position, way back in the 80’s can you believe it; it was like a switch flicked inside of me. I spent four years at hotel school, trained to be a chef, worked around various parts of the world, and knew I was good at it (this post is not about modesty). I have always worked in top class establishments, hotels and restaurants, and earned good buck for my experience and knowledge. Now I had always wanted to fly, I swear the first time I saw Concorde gracefully fly over my home town I nearly pee-ed myself. I was a late starter getting into flying, only having been in the air for four years now, and loved it from the word go. I have taken my customer service experience, and tweaked it to the needs of being cabin crew. Long days don’t bother me, neither multi sector days and trips, working holidays, early mornings, weekends, being away from home, family and even my partner, these I can cope with. Ok, I don’t want to do night flights, but that’s just personal preference and so far I have managed to “beg, borrow and steal” my way out of the dreaded DME night duty.

99% of the time, I give 110% (I reserve the right to be human). The customers we fly around the Eurofleet network get seriously whacked in the face with warm welcomes, helpfulness, knowledge of our airline, routes, connections, our award winning website and all its features, our executive club, our product and our pride in working for our national flag carrier. I spend a lot of time keeping current with our ever changing airline. I try and see the rationale behind changes in product, pricing, challenges we face as a massive company in trying to balance the needs and expectations of our customers with the need to make a profit and those of a responsible employer. I make excuses for the disappointments our customers experience, from daily late departures and arrivals, lack of catering, lack of continuity in customer service between departments, bags not making flights, misinformation, appalling airport conditions, broken seats, tired looking aircraft (all the old airbus aircraft spring to mind), rank smelling aircraft and toilets, appalling food ( £1600 for a club ticket to Moscow and insufficient choices to go around of bad quality food!), running out of product, under-catering, warm wines and champagne, poor quality in-flight entertainment on Eurofleet.

I looked today and our latest customer satisfaction rating of cabin crew is 84%. This is fairly standard for us. We are constantly told that it’s our performance and outstanding customer service that keeps our customers coming back again and again. We seem to hit the right balance of care, respect, informality and genuine heartfelt desire to give a service experience that sees that our customers have the best flying experience we can give despite the daily disappointments our company keeps on throwing at our customers. All you need to do to know the feelings of our customers is to read some of the reviews that various airline internet review sites post as well as the board up in the compass centre with letters of appreciation from our customers. We shine compared to a lot of our competitors in customer service, the very nature of our jobs.

On another note, I promote our company in many ways. I question family and friends who chose to fly with other airlines so I can understand why they made that choice, I regularly check flight prices for people and most times we come up trumps, I extol the virtues of buying multi sector point to point tickets with BA instead of looking for the cheapest option on various carriers which could leave passengers in the deep should something go wrong, I reckon I have booked approximately £10 000 worth of tickets for family and friends in the last year alone, I explain and promote the use of ba.com and all its features such as online check in, I get upset when people I know ( and sometimes don’t know) tell me of bad experiences they have had with British Airways, I try and explain why it is that certain things happen and why they don’t live up to passengers expectations, win them round you may say. In other words, I fly the flag for this company.

Now you may ask where this is all going. Well, firstly, for those of you that may be thinking that Eurofleet crew are apathetic to the cause of the industrial action that we are currently facing, let me tell you that I have stressed out enormously about what is happening at the moment, I regularly keep my ears to the ground at work to see where the lands lies with my colleagues, I am saddened by the mud slinging between company and union, crew and management, individuals. I will be the first to stand up and say that there are times when I don’t know who to believe, is it company propaganda or the ugly side of union politics that I do not like one bit. I don’t know if I have the ‘bottle’ to stand up to intimidation, I also know that if I am to go the distance with this fight, it could put me in a serious short term financial dilemma.

But, I will tell you what I do know, that for all the things mentioned above that I put in to this job, not just the basic requirements of getting the job done, but the extras that come with it, for that I deserve a fair wage. At present I am happy with what I earn, I think the company gets incredible value for money from me. I don’t go sick unnecessarily, I don’t take dependency days unnecessarily, I work to the maximum hours our agreements dictate without question or complaint, I even think ( shock and horrors) that there is room for improvement to our productivity on Eurofleet and this should be approached and negotiated in a mutually beneficial way.

If British Airways wants to erode my terms and conditions of employment and ultimately pay me less, I will be faced with two choices: one I can leave a job I love and want to stay with for a number of years, or, two, I can change the way I work and this is how it will go: when a passenger walks on to the aircraft, I will not greet them by name, not recognise them from the flight the day before and welcome them back warmly, I will check their boarding card because that is a safety requirement, when I am standing at the overwings, I will not chat animatedly with passengers about their holidays, their tan or the book they are carrying, I will not bust a gut to move a passenger who wants to be seated elsewhere, I will not be caring about the bad customer experience they have had on their journey to the aircraft, I will not ‘find’ a newspaper for the person who hasn’t had a chance to read the Daily Mail in weeks, I will not recommend a wine, I will not pour champagne with grace and slip them another bottle because it is their anniversary, I will not move a passenger to the front of the aircraft to give them the best possible chance of making the connection to their next flight, I will not stand and talk a nervous passenger through the stages of flight that scares the living hell out of them, I will not make up cool, wet towels for the mother distraught at her child’s discomfort or illness; and I will not apologies for lack of catering, cleaning and late departure/arrival. I will also not promote British Airways as a full service airline, I will not inform passengers of the best way of getting the best deal out of their choice of airline, I will not explain new routes/destinations, I will not read up on changes to our airline to keep our customers informed and I certainly will not be booking flights for friends and family any more.

You see, the bottom line for me is that I was recruited by British Airways not just because I could open an aircraft door in an emergency, or deal with a medical case on board, but because I come with a range of skills and experience and maybe even a little bit of flair which I could use in the role of customer service to provide a fantastic journey for our customers so they would come back time and again and recommend us and promote flying with us to their friends and family, and ultimately make a profit for our airline and pay me a decent wage for doing a damn good job.

There is a difference between working on minimum wage for McDonalds where you don’t expect to be greeted with a smile but just get your mediocre burger, because it’s a means to an end, or working for the likes of the Savoy or the Ritz at a higher wage where your skills and experience are used and appreciated and for that you can command a higher wage and better terms of employment and future prospects.

So, Mr. Walsh, if you, the board, the shareholders and the our paying passengers want me to flip a British Airways burger and slap it in a box and send customers on their way like they are on a production line, then tell me that is what you want and I will make the decisions I have to make accordingly. But if you want me to provide a ‘service that matters for people who value how they fly’ and you still want to cut back on the fair and just way you remunerate me for these skills, then you better believe that you will have a fight on your hands from me!

I vote resoundingly in favour of a yes vote!

flybywire

6th Jan 2007, 15:05

reverse thruster, that was a great post.

However, why don't you post it on the BA forum (ess)? It would really stand out where it counts. Mr walsh won't read pprune, but Mt Talling-Smith and the lot do (despite they answer only when they want!). It would be much more useful there :ok:

reverse thruster

7th Jan 2007, 10:39

the post is already on the ess forum under two different headings and simon has responded.

oldflyboy

7th Jan 2007, 19:35

Lots of interesting stuff here guys, only word of caution is that you are not dealing with the good guys! Just ask any crew, either ex BAR crew ( i.e. joined BA in the regions) or anyone who currently works or worked in BAConnect; delivering high GPM results every month, working for £1:90 per hour flight pay at some of the lowest pay rates given to crew wearing the BA uniform, if the current paymasters are warm and fuzzy!

:= NOT! If you don't fit into the 'plan' pal, you are out, sold to the nice man in the red uniform!

My message? Stick together & stay focused! Listen to both sides and vote according to the facts.

Oh, and by the way, BAConnect only has TU representation via base representatives supported by the TGWU, BASSA have no recognition! Get my drift?

Good Luck to all!

Pax Agent

8th Jan 2007, 22:27

Hi guys....just thought i'd add to the pot my feeling about BA this eve!

Not only have we got all this bad feeling regarding the IR issues being balloted for but until the takeover of the WW routes are complete many of us are lucky to be working enough to earn anything over £1000 a month due to over crewing. Now I understand why we are overcrewed until next month and we are generally all willing to put up with this until the money starts to roll a little.
So you can imagine how important any rostered trips are to us!?

Well today my 3 day trip included a NEW nightstop! Yes a LGW nightstop!
With no anual leave this month this is my first flight of the month (remember its the 8th already) and I managed a 3 day trip to 2 places in europe.

Well on the 1st/2nd leg we are delayed by 1 hour and low and behold the next leg gets re crewed by standby's so we lose out first city! Oh well we think maybe we can see why they have done this and I suppose at least we are still ding the 2nd city the next day (as per information from the captain as they were meant to be with us all the way).
We get to our crewlink messages and we see a roster change but oh no not to say we are reporting tomrrow.....no...that we are on standby for 2 more days!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
This trip is in effect worth £150 approx and when we aren't expected to clear £1000 this month taking £150 out of our wallets just isn't funny!
Its not even as if the flights were full....most had about 50-70 pax booked.
We were all sure that we should have been given the rest of our trip to maintain our roster stability!?!?!?!? By no means were the standby crew entitled to that 3 day trip.....there was no reason for them to complete the whole trip and they could have satisfied 2 sets of crew. Instead they lose the last of my goodwill and I won't be there to help them until they stop putting stupid links between trips when one of the destinations is notorious for being late.
We all know that if we were on a nasty double BA would have accepted that (relatively) small delay...
I know im going to get replies from people who think im being unreasonable but why not transfer £150 out of your bank account into mine and see if you like it?!? :ugh:

Paxy.

Rant over.

flybywire

9th Jan 2007, 13:58

Paxy.....I understand your frustration, believe me, however that's not how crewing works unfortunately.

There's not such a thing as "those standby crew were not entitled to that 3 day trip", as once they call out somebody to do any kind of trip it can be easier and less complicated (from a planning point of view) to have the standby crew do the rest of the trip and transfer their standby's to the crew who got delayed.

Again, I understand your frustration very well, I know how you feel, however the company doesn't care whether you get annoyed or not, they have an operation to run and try to do it in the easiest, cheapest way possible, and in this case most likely passing the rest of their standby's to you and your crew was just that.

Morale is going really down at LGW, it's such a shame :{

frontcheck

9th Jan 2007, 15:51

pax agent
whilst none of us would want to loose money, you must appreciate the idea is to get as many flights as near to on-time as possible and not to inconvenience the customers , they come first not the staff.

Litebulbs

10th Jan 2007, 00:51

My Honoured Gentlefolk

I am an ex BA employee. I flew to MAN today for pay negotiations with my current Charter airline. I sat on the bus from X car park LGW mulling over the forthcoming meeting, when three BA crew got on. Now being a union activist, (Amicus), I was very interested to listen to the debate about the forthcoing strike, (its gonna happen, so they said). The two girls were about to be relocated to LHR, the chap was soon to be flying longhaul out of LGW, but wasn't really bothered about doing it, but didn't stop talking about it.

Now, I went through some troubling feelings and emotions on this 10 minute journey. The things I picked out of the debate were that LGW were going to strike because they were having some breakfasts taken away? and LHR were going on strike because a 10 hr duty to Houston is an unacceptably fatiguing duty with only two days off afterwards. I was puzzled why I instantly felt annoyed by the comments that were made. How dare they feel hard done by? Come and work in the rest of the UK industry and see what working is all about!!!! Then, my sensible head appeared. OK, striking for breakfast is a bit extreme, but someone really has to draw a line in the sand and say that YES, the days off after a duty where jet lag involved, is important! Who better to raise the issue to the public eye than the Flag Carrier! I have been caught in the downward spiral of constant reductions of terms and conditions and found myself almost agreeing with BA managements view. It passed after a couple of seconds, but I couldn't help feeling that joe public may not feel the same way.

The money side of things is somewhat confusing though. I left 8 years ago and when I left, LH cabin crew were paid somewhere in the region of Bill Gates and the flight deck were paid in gold, frakinscence and muur! Looking on the pilot pay scales web site, nigel/la and his/her younger brother/sister, nigel/la are paid well, but WW crew paid between £1100-£1800 clear; thats a shock. Juniors at my lot get roughly the same! However, do they have to work for it! The longest duty with positioning is about 18hrs and no crew rest. They have agreed to fit a curtain around three seats at the back of the longhaul jets, but as yet, they are still in a store room somewhere!

Anyway, we had our meeting, I had a chat with my director about my journey in the morning and we discussed why Virgin employees love Virgin and BA employees are not quite as loving to their employer. He also suggested that BA would go the way of Qantas in the not too distant.

Anyway, meeting over, back to T3 for flight back to LGW, already checked in, so straight through security, looked up at the screen, delayed for an hour!! I wish it was a one off, but generally it isn't; where the Jet2 flight is generally on time. As an airline employee, I completely understand how delays happen, (tech, weather, unacheivable schedules unless a perfect day), but it is still damn annoying, so what do the SLF feel?

I have just re-read this and I don't really know what I want to say other that I agree with why you feel the way you do, but will the majority of your flying guests feel that way? Still, you have to fight to survive and good luck to you. I will bib as I drive past the pick-nik line on the RDB outside North.

oldflyboy

10th Jan 2007, 09:20

Good post Lightbulbs!

Spose its summed up by the fact that after years of it happening a feeling of being cacked on as a regular part of life by your employer and that the money men always want the extra pound of flesh starts to build up on one.

Yes the industry has changed dramatically, BA are no longer the airline of choice in Europe, the Irishman and the Greek chap have opened the continent up via lo fares, and frankly we have not adapted. ( Bet they wish that we still owned 'GO'!) Yes we have to cut costs and adapt, everyone understands that, and perhaps if we crew felt valued and included things might be different, but we are not.

I still as a professional deliver excellence every time I fly, but it's getting harder believe me! All I ask is that when it comes to voting on action you vote with understanding of the issues and just ask yourself, does my boss know me & what I contribute to this business? If it's NO then this must mean you are only a staff number to him/her and perhaps BA needs reminding that you are actually a person and deserve respect, recognition and to be valued.

Good Luck All!

nurjio

10th Jan 2007, 16:28

oldflyboy..honestly, I'm interested to know:
1. What would make you feel valued?
2. Why is it getting harder to deliver excellence? Can you suggest ways to make it easier?
3. Who is your boss? Do you feel you need to have a face-to-face relationship with him/her? Do they need to 'know' you?
4. What do you contribute to the business?
5. Why do you think that 'we have not adapted'. BEP et al, was all about adapting - wasn't it?
6. Do you feel that by taking IA, BA will recognise, value and respect you?
7. Finally, where does it state that BA was ever "the airline of choice in Europe?"
I'm not a cc manager, by the way, I just wonder sometimes what 'professionals' like yourself really, really, really think.
nurj :}

Maus

11th Jan 2007, 00:07

Despite not wanting to come back to this site (because I feel some contributors feel compelled to create division amongst the company employees: Flight crew/Cabin Crew; Management/Crew, and post inciteful comments) I just couldn't help myself: I wanted to see how the thread had progressed. It seems a little calmer and more thought-provoking now that some of the knee-jerkers have left the party!
I feel that it is really sad (and indicative of the Manager-Crew divide) that there needs to be a threat of a strike in order for some of our concerns, (many of which we have tried to convey for years) to be addressed. Yes, there are some who are always spoiling for a fight, but for such a large cross-section of the crew community and one of the first times, historically, for BOTH unions to be in agreement, speaks volumes about the state of affairs of our company.
I have stated before that I consider myself to be one of the moderate, law-abiding types. By that I mean that I have never been in any trouble with the management, indeed my manager (who I met for the first time in 10 years!) looked at my file and told me that BA needs more people like me; I have only ever reported unfit for work when I have been seriously unable to operate (I think 3 occasions in 10 years), and despite being in the possession of a brain and an honours degree, have chosen to do a job that doesn't tax my mind at all, but I believe I am good at and possess the right qualities for the job. If I were on a flight, I would want to be served by me. (ooooh, get me!). I digress...
I worked at Marks & Spencer's HQ in my last job and saw first-hand how a monolithic company operated. At the time, M&S was in severe financial trouble - and I might have saved the company a few years of turmoil, had I the chance to point out to the CEO that the way to turn the company around was not to cut the conditions and pay of the sales assistants and order them to be more productive, but to rather get rid of all the consultants on a £100 an hour and many of the anonymous middle management who I would observe flitting from one meeting to another, never accomplishing anything on their To Do lists and merely treading water. I would prefer for us to operate in the John Lewis model of a partnership, where we all work for the common good and the financial benefit of the company, but not being in the possession of a Economics degree, I don't know the ramifications of that...
Despite being the Teachers' Pet, I feel that our management operate solely on a "Stick" mentality - no Carrot, no reward. I go the "extra mile" - it is part of my job and the reason I was hired. I don't want to go on strike, and I dare say many of my colleagues don't either. But is this what it takes to get the management to listen to our concerns and try and find a suitable middle ground? Is it only because of a threat to managers' bonuses and fear for the safety of their own jobs (and unfortunately the resulting financial impact on ALL BA employees, shareholders, and disruption to our long-suffering customers) that someone like me can be given a voice?
Why did it come to this? Many of the 12 points of dispute have been on the table for OVER 10 YEARS. Those in charge of Industrial Relations now have to earn their paycheck and do what they were employed to do: resolve the dispute by involving all parties concerned and foster a culture of better communication, understanding and respect amongst us. No spin. No touchy-feely "You are not just a number, Miss 123456, you are an INDIVIDUAL" nonsense. Just honest engagement. If that were the case, there would be no need for Trade Unions. (But I still thank goodness I have them.)
Apologies for any spelling mistakes and for the length of my post, but I am jet-lagged and need to get this off my chest. Ta-ra!

knavesmire

11th Jan 2007, 10:55

litebulbs if your in amicus (cc89) what would you know about strikes ?

brush

11th Jan 2007, 11:20

Having worked in a previous job as middle management, I know how the game works, make a presentation that raises "issues", this leads to another presentation/meeting, which leads to another and so on and so forth...The ultimate aim is to spin this process out for as long as possible in order to justify your job, and when someone comes along demanding answers make sure that your not in the firing line. I know I was very good at it, even getting to the stage of not doing a single days work in two months. Eventually I grew up, my conscience got the better of me, and I resigned.

The point is, for the BA management who are reading this, is that we are not stupid we know what you are doing,(mostly nothing), and we don't feel you should be rewarded for it while we are asked to pay for it.

TopBunk

11th Jan 2007, 11:58

litebulbs if your in amicus (cc89) what would you know about strikes ?

answer ... probably as much as the vast majority of BASSA members who, when faced with a strike call, just went sick through lack of resolve in 1997.

It will be very interesting to see what the ballot returns, I expect a 80% vote to strike from a 60% return at best (for BASSA), meaning under 50% of he electorate voting for strike action. Should a strike be called, I would expect less than 300 on strike in total (and half of those manning the picket line will be reps and those on days off), with the rest choosing to put themselves into AMP rather than strike.

I wish BASSA good luck as they are treated very badly, but I fear that there will be many tears over this one, with the vast majority being financially badly damaged through loss of basic pay and allowances, which they can ill-afford.

ABird747

12th Jan 2007, 11:13

litebulbs if your in amicus (cc89) what would you know about strikes ?
Judging by your idiotic post, not much more than you by the looks of it. :rolleyes:

I read a very interesting thread from the BALPA forum that someone had printed out yesterday, in it it detailed how BASSA's behaviour over the pensions issue left more than a little to be desired. It even went to the extent of detailing the behaviour of the BASSA chairman which left me aghast (but not suprised).

I went and spoke to one of the BASSA reps sitting upstairs in the coffee bar and they more or less confirmed the sequence of events, admitting that the pensions deal was not agreed by BASSA purely to avoid losing face.

Now if that's the kind of people that you want representing you then far be it from me to stand in your way... Just give a thought every now and then that the propaganda that is churned out by the offices in Compass is not as truthful as it claims to be on occasions, although of course the glossy 'diary of a crewmember' that has just been produced (at what cost I do not know) does not claim to be fact.

Hotel Mode

12th Jan 2007, 12:07

although of course the glossy 'diary of a crewmember' that has just been produced (at what cost I do not know) does not claim to be fact.

Ah BASSA's "dodgy dossier" Apparantly BA have the capability to deploy the hourly rate in only 45 minutes. :)

ABird747

12th Jan 2007, 13:53

Shame they can't deploy crew buses that quickly too!!!

Litebulbs

12th Jan 2007, 13:55

Knavesmire

Been out on strike a couple of times in my career. Its not very nice, but sometimes you have to draw that sandy line. I was on leave when we went out, so after the event, I withdrew my leave and gave BA the money back. It was pointed out to be by someone who didn't want to be out (but still was!) that I was still living at home, so it was only beer money I was giving back. Yep, it was, so It wasn't that much of a gesture, but I can't help that. It was the days of the AEEU and I am not cabin crew.

I have said many times before, don't fear the management, fear the person who you are sitting next to in the crew room, bus, plane, hotel bar etc, coz I bet most of you won't be standing next to each other outside the gates!!!

knavesmire

14th Jan 2007, 13:08

a bird i suggest you up your medication and stop ranting about things you know nothing about and leave the bassa reps alone im sure cc89 are more your cup of tea

triple x

14th Jan 2007, 21:29

in less then 24 hours results will be out.

YES

Sunshine Express

14th Jan 2007, 21:29

To 'Tofster' and others at LGW.
Check the 10 points in the ballot, Gatwick breakfast allowance isn't there.

SuperBoy

15th Jan 2007, 12:52

96% voted in favour of IA.

ABird747

15th Jan 2007, 13:10

96% voted in favour of IA.

What a spectacular result, 80% return and 96% in favour...

Shows the strength of feeling. Lets hope BA sit up and listen.

strake

15th Jan 2007, 14:42

ABird747
I'm a passenger, use your service, help pay your wages along with two hundred and thirty five others here who can fly BA premium. Obviously, our powers-that-be sat up and listened this morning...instruction just through to all PA's "Prepare to use alternative to BA for travel....."
Job done?

knavesmire

15th Jan 2007, 14:44

changed your tune now a bird `jump on the bandwagon then

katie1407

15th Jan 2007, 16:51

Would be lying if I said I was happy about striking, but what other option do we have? Have been shafted by BA too many times in cost-cutting on other depts over the 16 years I've worked for them. Time to stand up for ourselves.

Anyone heard any rumours about when the strike(s) likely to happen? How much notice do BASSA have to give BA?

Katie

Airside London

15th Jan 2007, 17:28

Rumour has it will be the first week of Feb ..

I hope British Airways does not go Under for this strike and I heard the Franchise Airlines will do Charter Flights for BA Mainline with there spare Aircraft . This is not fact but just Rumour !!

OzzieO

15th Jan 2007, 17:36

23rd January is the earliest date we can go on strike.

Enough is enough.

katie1407

15th Jan 2007, 17:57

I heard a rumour (and its just a rumour) that it was going to be last Saturday in January, then every Friday after that til it's sorted out one way or the other.

apaddyinuk

15th Jan 2007, 18:11

Well I was at the meeting today and they said it will be a series of 3 day strikes!!!

No dates have been set. It all depends on tomorrows meeting with management and action will be swift!

Sigmond

15th Jan 2007, 18:16

I can't see how the strike is going to help us as an airline? Lost revenue means that we will have to tighten our belts even more - the airline is convinced it needs 10% operating margin. That means any lost revenue/profit will force us to try even harder next year to meet 10%! And say good bye to the annual bonus! I think if cc are so cnvinced that they are being hard done by, they should challenge the company to independent arbitration, and then see who telling lies....:confused:

twisted-diamonddolly

15th Jan 2007, 18:24

sigmond... there is only one person telling lies and its simon. I was at the meeting today and have to say was never so proud to be crew:D

Tropicalchief

15th Jan 2007, 18:31

Believe me Sigmund, with 34 years experience in the industry, its management that lies.

Thumperdown

15th Jan 2007, 18:38

I heard a rumour (and its just a rumour) that it was going to be last Saturday in January, then every Friday after that til it's sorted out one way or the other.
Katie
Define the 'one way or the other'!
I would suggest
1. You surrender and get back to work in the real world
or
2. You end up with no job and have to get one in the real world.
Either way - get real and welcome to the world! :ok:

Sigmond

15th Jan 2007, 18:40

Sounds like after years of mistrust, we need a fresh new start and build up trust again! I think we need independent arbitration to help us (crew and management) to start building up some levels of trust again!

PS - I am not part of crew management in any way! just trying to add some common sense to the issues!:ok:

Tropicalchief

15th Jan 2007, 18:57

My dear Sigmond,

Management are not interested and never have been. Had you experienced the conditions under which CC flew in the 60's/70's you would understand that BOAC/BA management never gave anything to CC. Everything that CC have today was hard fought for by your predecessors. The enemy is management.

TightSlot

15th Jan 2007, 19:01

Folks - forgive me for stepping in, but...

As with any industrial dispute, passions run hot and things can get pretty tense, especially if a dispute becoms protracted. Your mods will of course support your postings in here as best we can, but we also rely on all of you to post sensibly - by that we mean by arguing the issues and not the personalities: Everybody has a right to express their opinion, whether you may agree with it or not, and not everybody who takes a different view is a management stooge. This doesn't apply yet, but may do so in the future.

Please forgive me if I add one more point, from experience. In the initial heady rush of a decision to take action, it is easy to forget the grim realities of what is going to happen. The press and media may become hostile, and friends and family may take up positions that surprise you. Above all, however, remember that your take-home pay may be reduced whenever you have strike days, and you need to plan for this as best you can.

Sigmond

15th Jan 2007, 19:12

I dont think we can strike about what happened in the 70s! we have to deal with things as they are today! that is the current management, the state of the industry, and the strength of the competition! Having views within our ranks thinking of the good old 70s will have Branson and O'Leary opening up the bubbly! Comeon guys and girls - lets have a REAL discussion with the management about the REAL issues of the day, namely pension and tc and cs:bored:

katie1407

15th Jan 2007, 19:37

Thumperdown, I am in the real world and believe me I, like many others have not voted yes without thinking long and hard first.

I have been in the real world of British Airways for nearly 17 years. I have had my contract bought out for next to nothing (my choice but with false and ambiguous promises from management about how long my wages would be frozen)...then had my wage frozen for over 8 years. Then my office closed leaving me with the option to leave or commute from Glasgow to LGW. Both of these were cost cutting measures...leaving me now on the same wage I started on in 1990! Sorry, but it's someone elses turne(ie management) to cost cut now. I can barely afford to work for BA and commute as it is. If hourly rate comes in, I'll be off anyway.

Sorry if all this sounds selfish, but each of us has our own reason for voting yes.

katie

rhythm method

15th Jan 2007, 19:48

Thumperdown, I am quite surprised at your attitude about a strike which doesn't affect you personally (You are BACON aren't you, or am I missing something?).

I would have thought that anyone who has just been shafted by WW's big giveaway to flybe would be glad to see the little pr!ck get his comeuppance.

I have family who are both mainline crew and they are adamant they have had enough of BA's lying and constant cost-cutting at their expense. Fair play to them... Go girls (and boys!) and see if the shareholders are still happy with the leprechaun!

Tropicalchief

15th Jan 2007, 20:11

The reality Sigmond is that CC are considered a liability by management. The current woes re pensions, ask yourself, who created the problem by underestimating the monies required. Your T&C's, who agreed to them and now want to change them, and not improve them. Who does managements "dirty work" on site and then gets "blamed" for the bad decisions made by management.

Another reality is that the cult of managerialism that pervades the business world at the moment is that it is all based on theory. Most airline managers at the moment would not have a clue as to the day to day trials and tribulations of airline crew. It is all about money, taking it out of your wallet and putting it into theirs.

Bar Plus

15th Jan 2007, 21:19

Reverse thruster I have read your post this evening and I applaude you. Like yourself I thank BA for many things. I love the the quality of life that flying for BA provides me with. Like you, I also recognise that we are treated well (mbts and pay) in comparison to other peeps doing the same job elsewhere. However I WILL NOT roll over and bark to Willy Wonkas beck and call. I voted YES and this evening after hours of watching the news, reading the bassa website and ess forums I am proud of myself that I did!!

Today is a proud day for us. we have proved that we are united and p*$@ed off to an airline that pecieves everything to be rosy. I am not crazy enough to think that WW is hiding behind his sofa, like some people have been stating elsewhere!!! I think when he does rear his ugly head he will put up an even uglier fight. It was ugly at Air Lingus and I am sure he will use the media to his advantage just as he did then.

Are we ready? I hope so. I am first to admit the thought of a strike terrifies me. I hope it wont come to that...... but i think somehow I may be deluded to think that it wont. Its not about loosing money as to my reason. Its the hope that we dont cause too much commercial damage why we try to fight our corner. I love my country and to me, working for any other airline other than our flag carrier just doesnt do it for me!! I love wearing our red white and blue....... I am not prepared to settle for plain old Virgin red without a damn good fight!!!!!!!!!!!

Thumperdown

15th Jan 2007, 21:41

Rythm don't be too suprised - I would love to see willy wonka get it where it hurts. :D I also think that the BA cabin crew, on occasion, have had a somewhat condescending view of the rest of the aviation industry. (i.e. when we were described as a bunch of pipefitters and electricians). Whilst I do not wish to see anybody lose anything they have, the real world outside of BA is coming faster than some may think. BA cabin crew are not exempt from the real word or willy wonka. I hope it works out well for all and without too much inconvenience to the fare paying pax. :)

brush

15th Jan 2007, 22:37

Lots of posts here about BA cabin crew having to get real, and consider what others earn etc.
But the fact is we earn a wage, and have done for many years, that we rely on to support ourselves and our children.

I would understand the need for us to change our terms and conditions should the company be in a postion similar to 9/11, when we did change our t & c significantly in order to survive.

But this attack on our t & c is at a time when the company is doing well, thanks in no small part to our efforts post 9/11, and not to those of an opportunistic management, many of whom weren't around in those difficult times.

P.S. I have no doubt that many posts on this forum are from BA managers in disguise, rumour mongering, scare tactics....dirty tricks....

Carnage Matey!

15th Jan 2007, 22:47

But this attack on our t & c is at a time when the company is doing well, thanks in no small part to our efforts post 9/11,

Ok so you took one crew member off a 747, but what else have you done since 9/11?

kedhandi

16th Jan 2007, 07:00

I read these pages with interest. I am not crew but fly around 80 times a year for business using mainly BA. After the announcement regarding strike action, like an earlier post, our company issued instructions this afternoon, with immediate effect to use alternative airlines to BA.

As a business our employees cannot afford to be left 'flightless' or 'stranded' by the actions of an airline or its staff. Whilst we are not the largest customer of BA by any means we are not your average holiday maker or traveller taking a couple of flights a year. I estimate as a company we use BA anything up to 750 times a year.

Whilst I wish you well in your negotiations, please also consider the impact of your customer. There are too many choices in the market these days, and whilst the service may not be as good, at the end of the day other providers will also get me from A to B.

Ancient Observer

16th Jan 2007, 07:33

reverse thruster

16th Jan 2007, 08:54

Kedhandi, the descision to vote yes was taken with the impact to our customers in mind, that in itself should tell you how far we have been pushed by our heavy handed, confrontational management. a lot of those who voted in favour of a yes vote did so in the hope that it would make those that run our company wake up and stop taking from the 'little' people while lining their own pockets.
i am sorry to read that you have been told to take your business elsewhere, after all it is the cabin crew, mostly, that are the face of British Airways and give the customer service that brings you back time and time again. we have now been pushed way too far and need to redress that balance and if that means we have to take it all the way to the wall, then we will.

Carnage Matey!

16th Jan 2007, 09:23

Kedhandi, the descision to vote yes was taken with the impact to our customers in mind,

Looked like it when you were all cheering on the telly!

52049er

16th Jan 2007, 09:57

You have to be realistic for this to work - and statements like

thanks in no small part to our efforts post 9/11

simply don't help. Since 9/11 I've worked on SH and LH and for whatever reason BASSA has given no alleviations other than the (paid for) working one down on the 74. In my experience crew have still walked off the a/c at the first limiting opportunity, still made bunk rest on transatlantics a SOP and still refused to do fixed links at LHR.

I despise our managers as much as you do - but I fear for the response you will get. WW cannot afford to be seen to be soft, whatever the rightness of your position (and for gods sake no more cheering on telly please). Make sure you know the legal situation re being sacked too. You can be - and yes it will be illegal but dont expect to get much compo as a result. See the thread on General for details.

twisted-diamonddolly

16th Jan 2007, 11:46

The cheering was more for the the actual numbers involved as people and management had been saying that it would be a poor return. To get a 96% yes vote and more importantly an 80% return was a FIRST in ALL transport IR ballots. We made history yesterday - that was what got everyone on their feet. It was relief that a strong message has been sent to our management ( sigmond did you get it?) so we can avert a strike and NOT inconvenience our pax.

BUT if management keep sticking to this mantra that we have to achieve a 10% operating margin ( bearing in mind we are already the most profitable legacy carrier with a margin of 8.2%) then I'm sorry we WILL strike. I'm not prepared to loose alot of my T&C's just because "its in the business plan".

keeperboy

16th Jan 2007, 12:09

Many of the e-mails on here are "inward looking". If BA CC are to succeed with their strikes, they must gain public support. I'm not convinced that current "sickness" levels in BA - at more than twice the UK average, and current working time arrangements (working half the time of teachers), will help BA CC gain public support. I think that CC need to pick an issue which will be supported by the public. The current tactic of complaining about everything is not a good tactic. As with other customers who have posted here - I have a choice and do not have to fly with BA. I happen to prefer to fly with BA, but I need certainty.

We will not gain public support and we know it. Nurses and police officers have a hard enough time getting any public support, i think our chances are nil.

The large majority of UK public is interested in the cheapest fare they can get with the maximum amount of perks thrown in....end of.
They are not really bothered with the impact this has on pay or working conditions.

A bit like a pair of Nike training shoes. Would the average shopper pay £200 for a pair of trainers made in the UK? Or £80 for the same trainers made in a sweatshop in Cambodia?

I think the 'success' of any industrial action is dependant on the unity of the workforce involved. And with a 80% return and 96.1% 'yes' vote the unity is certainly there.

The true 'success' now rests with the union and BA being able to sit down and thrash out a fair deal for both sides.

FACT: The post '97 basic pay at BA LHR is the market rate.

FACT: The starting basic salary for crew at LGW is significantly below the market average. The LGW take home is in-line (or lower) than most UK LCC's.

FACT: LHR variable pay is generally much better than most UK airlines. But this is VARIABLE. We are not guaranteed a penny of 'variable' income per month. BA are under no obligation to roster us ANY flying. If they wanted we could have 3 months of standby with no flying at all and a takehome pay of around £850.

FACT: When sick we do not have the opportunity to hide behind a desk or 'work from home' with a laptop. The prospect of going to the developing world for a trip when you are not feeling well is not great either. The pilots also whinge about EG300.

FACT: There are un-doubtably a number of BA cabin crew that take the p#ss with attendance. Time off during school holidays, sporting events etc. But EG300 seems to punish the genuinely sick. Yet if you 'play' the system strategically and are careful with dates you can abuse it.

FACT: There is room for change within in-flight service that could save BA money. But there is also a lot of changes that BA could make to improve the working lives of their crews that would not cost a lot and would bring our conditions in line with other airlines. Such as a decent staff travel system (able to have a set number of any nominees, the ability to buy Club ID90 tickets, not having to wait 10 years for our first freebie). A decent bidding system for long-haul (we can request two trips per year and cannot swap any -except back to backs-). A little 'give and take' maybe?

The media and the net chatrooms tend to include the two extremes: the extreme militant faction of cabin crew and those that seem to have a personal grudge against cabin crew. It is usually these two groups that scream the loudest and gain the most attention.

The overwhelming majority of us are just looking for a solution without the need for a strike. However a solution that does not see us being walked all over like a bunch of doormats.

Rach-G

16th Jan 2007, 13:21

What people who are attacking us on the forum are forgetting is that we are not asking for more, we just want to keep what we've got, I understand the need to stay competitive in the market place but shouldn't management also streamline and not just be lineing their pockets.

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////EVENING STANDARD 09/AUG/2006//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

£75M SHARES POT TO REWARD BA,s BOSSES

BRITISH AIRWAYS is setting aside 20 million shares currently worth £75m to reward its top brass, headed by chief executive Willie Walsh.

The share will be ring-fenced in a special savings scheme which pays out to BA executives depending on their success in running the business.

The future looks brights for the airlines' executives directors after a 57% leap in first quarter profits gave them a flying start in the quest to drive up performance.

Walsh, who received a total of £961,000 from his May 2005 start date to BA's year end in March,can earn a bonus equivalent to 100% of salary split between cash and shares.

Last year, Walsh who stepped into the chief executives role in october was awarded a £270,000 bonus on top of his £548,000 pro-rata basic pay. His pay has since increased to £600,000.

Other likely beneficiaries of the executive share option scheme-open to middle management up to board director level-include chief financial Kieth Williams.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Hotel Mode

16th Jan 2007, 14:57

What people who are attacking us on the forum are forgetting is that we are not asking for more, we just want to keep what we've got,

But Rach BA have no announced plans to change your terms and conditions at all, BASSA are trying to make it sound like they are but there is no actual proposal. When there is I will happily picket with you.

Pacific Blue

16th Jan 2007, 15:13

Hotel mode wake up. There have been many proposals to cut cabin crew terms. Increase the retirement age to 65. Get penalised for going sick.
Removal of pursers so reducing chances of promotion further. Shafting of crew based at gatwick.
So please dont think for 1 minute BA cabin crew are being pedantic. They are fighting for what every employee deserves.

Hotel Mode

16th Jan 2007, 15:37

Increase the retirement age to 65

Which has been negotiated away should you wish it.

Get penalised for going sick

Which your union agreed to and you happily took 1000 pounds for

Removal of pursers so reducing chances of promotion further

Worth striking for loss of 20% of senior crew on 30% of fleet? Ie a 6% reduction in promotion. Especially as once again your union has agreed to 2 supervisory crew on the 777 at LGW.

Shafting of crew based at gatwick.

Which again your union has already agreed to.

Every employee deserves to maintain their current T+C as an absolute minimum. Again show me where BA are trying to reduce your current T+C's? I personally hope the new contract crew get some more money especially the Gatwick crew who have the worst T+C mostly cos BASSA dont care if its not LHR.

Carnage Matey!

17th Jan 2007, 03:07

What people who are attacking us on the forum are forgetting is that we are not asking for more, we just want to keep what we've got

BASSA want to increase the new contract pay so that it transitions onto the old contract payscales. That, by any definition, is asking for more.

Pacific Blue

17th Jan 2007, 10:39

Once again we seem to be hell bent on not supporting cabin crew at a time when they are being targeted left right and centre for ridiculous cost cutting demands.
We could debate on here for hours about the finer details of eroding terms, but still there are the same bitter pilots who regard their cabin collegues as waste of space and use the same management rhetoric that has caused the 96% vote of yes.
Its a shame because we fly on the same aircraft, the same routes, albeit doing a very different job, surely a bit more understanding and compassion wouldnt go amiss.
Maybe because the company has now agreed to inject a further £9million into pilots pension, the 'im alright jack' mentality seems to be spreading. Well im sure not too far down the road Mr walsh will move to the sharp end of the aircraft and see where savings can be made.
Happy Flying.:cool:

Hotel Mode

17th Jan 2007, 11:27

If BA were actually after your T+C then you would have my unqualified support but they're not (at the moment) Nowhere in this or the other thread has anyone given a sensible, unemotional reason why the 12 items are worth bringing the company to a standstill for. What happens when they actually go for something significant? like the hourly rate or short haul scheduling do you think the crew will have the stomach for another strike?

I presume you wont be accepting the 6m BALPA negotiated for you in the pension settlement either?

Perhaps you could be more specific on these ridiculous cost cutting issues that BA are targetting you with. Can you justify the MAN base? 5 supervisory crew out of 15?

The fact is despite your union inspired petty sniping at the flight crew there arent actually many savings to be made with us, we work maximum hours with no silly scheduling agreements at a competitive salary by worldwide standards. Fortunately rather than always saying no our union chose to engage the company producing savings for the company and lifestyle improvements for us.

As for the 96% yes vote well what did you expect? Noone knows what they voted yes to and certainly have no idea what they'll go back to work fot but who cares, we got the vote.

Honest question now had you considered strike action on anything other than the pension a possibility before BASSA's famous show of hands in Nov? None of my friends in crew did. Do you not find that odd

Sporran

17th Jan 2007, 15:09

I can well understand the euphoria from BASSA members at such a large YES vote, but a YES vote based on what?:}

The 12 points as I understand them:
1. EG300. Not ideal, but since BA cabin crew have such an appalling sickness level what else do you suggest. You signed up for it and took the money!!
2. Down route report times. :ugh:
3. Preferred Duty Free Seller. Best person for the job seems fair to me.
4. Fixed Links. Excellent idea for the 21st century.:D
5. Buses (for commuters). Trivia, all local buses at LHR are free for crew use.
6. Manchester Base. What?:ugh: It's gone.
7. Working Times. BASSA want 900 hrs and stop working, even if it is within the max 2000 hrs duty.
8. Loss of CSD in Eurofleet. CSDs not rqd in S/H, particularly on single isle aircraft!
9. Purser/Junior Swap on 744. What other job do you know that has one big boss & 4 smaller bosses to 'manage' 10 people?:ugh:
10. 1997 Payscales. Have sympathy on this one, but you cannot expect BA to suddenly offer a major increase - UNLESS you guys give up some of your archaic practices: destination payments, one-down payments, MBTs, lack of flexibility re industrial limits etc etc.
11. Pensions. BASSA lied through their teeth! A 'decent' pension decision had already been agredd.
12. LGW Bfst Allow. the need for a bfst allow in L/H is totally different to S/H. Anyway BASSA have totally ignored and deserted the LGW people over the years - so was this just a guilt thing.

I am still totally bewildered at the number of cabin crew that voted YES, but had no idea what they were voting YES for. lots of them still seemed to be under the impression that it was about hourly pay!!!:ugh:

I think WW will take BASSA on, because Rod E did not seem to have the bottle for it.

OzzieO

17th Jan 2007, 15:44

Sporran are you BA crew? Are you serious?

Pacific Blue

17th Jan 2007, 19:32

It seems we have management plants on here too! Hello, the powers that be are going to pocket huge bonuses if they can pull through all the targeted cost savings from cabin crew.We just want what every employee in the 21st century deserves:
To have the chance for promotion,
To get rewarded at a level that is equal or more than we are currently getting,
To be able to report sick without persecution,
To be be provided accomodation on trips that is deemed safe,
To be able to retire at 55 with an achievable pension that means stability.

If only some of the negative comments about our hardest working employees could be directed to the fat cats that are draining our profits, then that would be refreshing.

You guys are not flying for DHL, we actually have customers who pay your wages sitting behind you. It is the cabin crew who bring them back time and time again. Not the latest management cost cutting spin.

As for :ugh: , thats what its like posting on here, as the message doesnt seem to get through.

3Greens

17th Jan 2007, 19:53

Pacific Blue

At least 3 out of 5 of your "wish list" are not on the BASSA strike agenda, and 1 (the pension) has fufillled your wish!!

TightSlot

17th Jan 2007, 20:54

It seems we have management plants on here too!

Do not assume that anybody expressing an unpopular or different view is a manager, or similar. These forums are anonymous, and therefore any such assumption will make you look foolish - play the ball, not the player.

the departed

17th Jan 2007, 21:39

Talks have now ended and BA have requested BASSA to put forward their final proposal re the strike issues by Friday am.

I doubt that BA will accept it. With neither side backing down it's going to be even worse than 97 with that leprechaun at the helm and we'll all be caught up in a nasty dispute that no-one really wants.

I understand frustration from loyal pax, but if you look at the past few years, it's actually never been the fault of CC for any distruption. Ground Staff wildcat strike - nothing to do with us, staff shortages couple of years ago resulting in severe disruption - nothing to do with us in fact BA actually made public statement taking blame, GG/baggage loaders illegal strike - nothing to do with us. Fog, cross debacle, lost baggage, etc etc,

I attended a 'csd in touch' forum with BA managers other day. They said they were 'not suprised' by the the 96% yes vote. That saddens me. What kind of managemet skills have they bought to the company then if such a large majority of their staff feel so unhappy, yet there are soooooo many managers there at our service? There are 3000 pilots at BA with fewer than 20 odd managers. The CC comminity have hundreds! Want to cost cut? OK put your money where your mouth is then guys. All for one and one for all!!

I don't need a CSD, PUR, PE, CCM, DOM etc etc. I'm happy with my direct managers on borad being my CSD/PUR and a DOM for any needs on the ground. My IFA's (of which there are many) relfect I'm doing a great job. I couldn't even tell you my PE's or CCM's name? I've never needed them. Never met them. If I have a problem, there's a perfectly functional DOM on duty all the time.

If they want to save some dosh, fair enough - but lead by example then. You first ...............

By the way, take it from me, (new contractor) BA are NOT as highly paid as the public think.

tristar2

17th Jan 2007, 21:40

I think sporran must be taking some of whatever WW and the rest of the waterside flumps are taking.
Point 1 was never agreed to by most areas of BA but instead forced upon staff without any fight from the unions.
If point 3 is true i can't see a problem with that because it eans a beter cut for the crew at the end of the day.
Point 8 is wasted comment from you because the 757/767 do require a CSD.
A reply to point 9 is loo at Waterside or the Compass Centre and thats where a huge similarity exists.There are more senior/junior managers,PA's,assistants to PA's in these places who really don't do alot to help the staff who keep the company going through the hard times or care about the passangers but instead are only interested in their own personal ego.

And there has been no official word from the unions to the staff throughout the company about any agreed pension deal.the members have not agreed to anything and once again it looks like BA has issued another bunch of lies just to ensure the shareprice goes up and to try and deceive everyone.I for one back the cabin crew strike 100% and would also back any action taken buy ground staff.WW is just a bully and since his arriva at BA has set out to demoralise every staff member and change every thing that the company used to stand for.A one point BA was an icon it's now just the laughing stock of the industry.

wiggy

17th Jan 2007, 21:52

What kind of managemet skills have they bought to the company then if such a large majority of their staff feel so unhappy, yet there are soooooo many managers there at our service? There are 3000 pilots at BA with fewer than 20 odd managers. The CC comminity have hundreds! Want to cost cut? OK put your money where your mouth is then guys.
That's probably the most perceptive comment made on this subject on this or any of the other threads running on this topic.
Good luck

DaveO'Leary

17th Jan 2007, 22:35

Err do I detect a thread drift here? (Moved from BA strike post) Good luck to you guys and girls, don't let the bast:mad: grind you down. Main thing is, none of you have experience of working a picket line, I trust you'll be picketing?

Tell you this, the nice cops you knew at LGW will no longer be nice cops.
a) They will chat as old pals. Never EVER talk about the union plans/your thoughts about the strike. All is fed back to the Met/Gov Depts/BA in this order.

b) Never, EVER (on your own) talk to members of the press.

I wish you all well, and a speedy victory. I'll be at LGW with coffee and sandwiches to support you guys/gals. But don't expect your parking privileages, BA will 'knock them on the head' for all strikers/people who want a living wage. Train/bus will be the transport to LGW.

Dave
.

Twrecks

17th Jan 2007, 23:34

They said they were 'not suprised' by the the 96% yes vote. That saddens me. What kind of managemet skills have they bought to the company then if such a large majority of their staff feel so unhappy.

BA has lost touch with the people that drive it's business. It has put cost over both staff and passengers. This strike did not happen over night, it has been brewing for a while for many different reasons. The cabin crew are just voicing what many BA staff already feel.

BA needs to re-examine their HR policies and the rethink the current relationship on the ground and in the Air if they wish to continue to be a world class leader.

The EG 300 'Sickness Policy' can only be described as 'disgraceful' . as it does infringe on many basic Human rights. A destructive policy which punish's the group instead of those responsible, whilist slowly posioning the staff against the airline.

Yes , We need to protect decent working conditions, as well as reasonable pay, which is not an "unreasonable" request.

The numerous contracts and scheduling agreement's which have been introducted into the Regional crew's and ground staff over the past 8 years, is alarming and caused much ill feeling. Mainline has so far escaped the many changes to staff working conditions by remaining united. Well done. :ok:

Hope TU can resolve this with swift talks, and move forward, as punishing the passenger is route most BA staff do not wish to see happen.

Twrecks

Pacific Blue

18th Jan 2007, 12:07

At last, some postive posts on here that see the true picture.
What BA want is to have the same sweeping changes to inflight services at LHR that has been imposed at single fleet gatwick. ( and yes hotelmode, we know that this was agreed, A BIG MISTAKE.)
All gatwick crew now have 2 days off after every long haul flight (instead of 3), work 2 crew down on a 777 and only 3 crew on 737. But most importantly only get £2.48 an hour duty pay.
Not only are they stuggling to complete a normal cabin service in under 4 hours they cant afford their average take home of £1200 a month after tax.

I would like to ask any pilot to imagine for 1 minute that they are cabin crew at LHR. If you could either fight for what you already have or let management take it all, which option would you choose?

We are not all as fortunate to be in such a highly qualified role as flight crew, but that doesnt mean our careers as cabin crew are not important. Someone mentioned we need to accept 'change' and 'modernisation', these are just buzzwords from america that have created giants like ryanair, where their terms are a joke.
Imagine if a whole new approach was taken, whereby all frontline staff feel valued, rewarded and proud of their management and company. This would make BA the real money machine that everyone wants.

sammyjayne

18th Jan 2007, 12:27

just deviating off the topic slightly but i'm on annual leave at the moment up until the end of jan, (i didn't request it off, they had to allocate it to me before the end of the tax year) anyway, just wondering, if a strike was to go ahead and they needed cover for flights would they call me in off my annual leave? thanks guys :}

OzzieO

18th Jan 2007, 12:48

No is the short answer.

luksy

18th Jan 2007, 17:02

...by the way.....LGW hourly rate is 2,32 per hour :(

traveller5

18th Jan 2007, 20:18

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: They want it all! Woe is me................:{

Where were the CC when LGW/MAN/EDI/GLA etc got turned upside down??????? Double standards? Yep.

I've lost all sympathy with the crews as I have since learned LHR longhaul crews live on another planet. Can BA survive yet more terrible press? What a shameful national carrier.

tristar2

18th Jan 2007, 21:44

I terms of ground operations why should the crew show any proactive signs to back the changes to LGW/EDI/GLA/MAN.**** boy Walsh is only interested in T5 and wants rid of the regions and is trying to do it as sneakily as possible.If he can get away with shafting the ground staff whats to say he won't continue to treat the crew like crap and continue to make many illegal moves to further line his own pocket.

3Greens

19th Jan 2007, 08:27

Tristar2

What "illegal" moves has Walsh made so far? I don't like him anymore than you but could you please quantify your statement?

Maus

19th Jan 2007, 15:16

I log on to this site occasionally and and always leave it feeling disappointed that I did.
The same old names keep on popping up: CarnageMatey and Sporran, in particular, to add their little gems of wisdom. It saddens me that there should be such divide between our cabin crew and our flight crew. I have noticed on a lot of the other threads, Flight crew from other airlines (Australia and the US) seem to be more supportive of their cabin crew colleagues and the theme that they are doing "a great job" seems a common one. I thought that perhaps this breakdown in CRM has become pervasive, but I have noticed to my relief that without exception, all the flight crew I have flown with since the start of these current IR issues, have had little in common with the thoughts of CarnageMatey or Sporran. I am glad the days of "us" and "them" is firmly behind us.
And as for the :ugh: : I just don't get it. That should be our response to your opinions. You have asked the SAME old questions over and over again. And we have responded over and over again, only to be faced with the same list of questions. Do you feel that if you state your views enough times, that will cause them to miraculously become true?
I am proud that we have, in my opinion, some of the world's finest flight crew and I am equally proud that we are some of the world's finest cabin crew. So I just don't understand the beef some seem to have over other's incomes and working conditions.
It is simply not true that crew didn't even know to what they were saying "Yes". Weeks ago, some may have mistakenly believed that the hourly rate was part of the ballot, but all the various forms of communication from the union set them straight.
I am a reasonable, rational person. I have an Honours degree from a recognised university and have turned my back on an office-based career to do something I love and I know I am good at. If you flew with me, you'd know I was a credit to the company from both a crew and a passenger perspective. But if someone as level-headed (IMHO) as I am unhappy with my management, then there is something wrong. Some of these 12 issues have been on the table now for almost 10 years. A 96.1% "Yes" vote paints a rather dire picture and points to a very disaffected workforce.
I believe BALPA is a good union and, as a result, I get the impression that our pilots are, on the whole, happy with their wages and with their working conditions. So I would argue that it is perhaps difficult for them to try and walk a mile (or 7) in our shoes.
I have friends who work for Delta and Virgin as Flight attendants/cabin crew, and I would agree that we have fairly decent working conditions and pay (there are SOME things I would like to change in my favour, but hey-ho...), and I would like to hold on to them. I don't want us to become easyjet/Ryanair/Delta or even Virgin. We are one of the world's best airlines and we should maintain that image. None of us wants a strike. It is just so sad that the first time the management have actually listened to our grievances is in the face of industrial action. Let's hope that the current talk are fruitful and that we can put this all behind us.
Happy flying everyone!

Carnage Matey!

19th Jan 2007, 15:54

The same old names keep on popping up: CarnageMatey and Sporran, in particular, to add their little gems of wisdom. It saddens me that there should be such divide between our cabin crew and our flight crew........ I thought that perhaps this breakdown in CRM has become pervasive, but I have noticed to my relief that without exception, all the flight crew I have flown with since the start of these current IR issues, have had little in common with the thoughts of CarnageMatey or Sporran. I am glad the days of "us" and "them" is firmly behind us.

I'm afraid the bad old days of "us" and "them" never went away. We've tried very hard with CRM to bring the cabin crew community into the team (heck must of us even steer well clear of talking about this ludicrous ballot in the workplace just to keep a lid on things). Unfortunately an awful lot of crew seem to think that CRM means they can do what they damn well please. I have lost count of the number of times I've encountered crew who have had to be either corrected (diplomatically) or occasionally reprimanded by someone, only to find they see no error on their own part and accuse the flight crew of "bad CRM". Here are some very current examples of great team work from the IFS side:

LGW trainers instructing trainees they must not give flight crew first class food. (This is presumably out of spite)
LGW trainers telling trainees the above is necessary as flight crew get thousands of pounds each year not to eat it. (An outright lie)
BASSA intervening to stop the B2B bus routing from T4 to the car park to the crew hotel (presumably to spite the pilots again)
BASSA reps telling hotels they must not offer room upgrades to FOs unless the CSD can also be upgraded.
BASSA reps telling their members they were prevented from attending pensions meetings (they weren't) and BALPA have stolen their members money to fund the pilots pensions (they haven't).

Thats five examples straight off the top of my jetlagged head, all occurring within the last 12 months. With that sort of provocation on a continual basis do you wonder why relations are strained?

Maus

19th Jan 2007, 17:20

Perhaps it is in your OWN experience that the "bad old days never went away". I work a lot on the Upper Deck and I have almost always enjoyed a good relationship with the flight crew - of course there are a few bad apples, but aren't there everywhere? I try not to take it personally and tar the entire flight crew community with the same brush. Some people bring their own little issues to work, so one tries not to take the bait...
I must say: it is the first time I have come across the purported LGW training methods. As I have no first-hand knowledge, I can only assume that it is either part of the rumour mill or an isolated case (perhaps ANOTHER person with an axe to grind?). If those allegations were even slightly true, I think that's all pretty sad really. Of course we are told on our training courses what is and is not allowed on the flight deck and where the flight crew catering can be located, but a little rule-breaking and goodwill go a long way. I treat others as I would hope they would treat me. Apart from a few exceptions, I treat the flight crew with respect, kindness and humour and it is reciprocated.
I confess I am ignorant, too, of the accusations of BASSA's behaviour that you mention. It does seem wholly reasonable to me, with regard to the bus and the car park, that majority rule would dictate that 11/15 people should be catered for before the remaining 2.
And I imagine that it would be fair to ask that a CSD also be upgraded should the flight crew get upgrades. Crikey, BAPLA negotiated better seats for flight crew when positioning than their cabin crew colleagues get - so give us something, won't you?
And as for the BASSA/Pension meeting clash: BASSA was given a date for a meeting by the T&G. When it came to the Pensions meeting. BASSA informed the management that they could make any meeting apart from THAT day, so the management chose to hold it then, thereby forcing BASSA to choose between sorting out the ballot issue and the Pension issue.
And I am tired of hearing the same old drum being beaten: "What have you given up as cabin crew since Sept 11th?" "How have you saved the company any money". Now I know you think we are morons (and you are entitled to any opnion you choose), but you must think us REALLY soft in the head if you expect us to say, "Hell, yeah, please DO take back some of my money as I have SO much left over at the end of every month; please take some more crew off our aircraft so we can aspire to the heady heights of Aeroflot, please make me work until I am in a wheelchair and of course I'll make a bigger contribution to my pension to get less back when I am old (how much does cat food really cost anyway?). Because, like the present British goverment and taxation, I just KNOW that my cost-saving and money will be put to great use. How else can we employ yet more cabin crew "managers"? How else can we organise yet MORE useless courses to put crew on and take them away from their flying duties; and how else could we give our executives super-fat bonuses? How, indeed, are we to lure outsiders in with golden hellos and hefty pay-deals to allow them to attempt to drive this airline into the ground in their 2 or 3 year internship, before sending them off on their way with golden handshakes (but if they've been particularly naughty, let's put them on gardening leave!).
We have saved the company money in ways that are not entirely quantifiable: since Sept 11th, it has become part of our working practice to save the company money on every flight that we do. We are not ORDERED to, good sense dicates that we operate thus: I will use my own examples, but I know that it is the norm. It may take me longer and slow the service, but I only open wines as they are required; If only one passenger is drinking a certain wine on the Upper Deck, I run up and down those blasted stairs to share an opened bottle of wine with the main deck - the same goes for juices; I replace every piece of catering and round-trip it in order that salad dressings, raid the larder, etc, may be re-used either on the return sector, or on another flight; after all the passengers have disembarked, I go through all the seat backs to save the magazines, and washbags. Those stairs and baggage "slope" outside Compass are treacherous (don't laugh: YOU do it in heels!), but we grudgingly negotiate them when using the BA1 service (now that the Central Area bus service has been withdrawn) and during back-to-backs; I think you'll also find that with the airlines that pay their crew peanuts, many of them are on the fiddle: I have never had the "pleasure" of working for a charter company (yet?), but I have many colleagues who have, and who swear that it is the rule rather than the exception to cook the books on the selling of alcohol, and that they were used to seeing everything that wasn't nailed down disappear from the aircraft, something at BA, that would be unthinkable. Boy, was that a boring illustration! I think I nodded of half-way, so please excuse any spelling or grammatical mistakes (I, too, am jet-lagged).
So, let's get on with it. You concentrate on your pay and conditions and we will look after our own. We KNOW we are going to get shafted, but at least we are putting up as much of a fight as we can - if we didn't, YOU would be writing in 6 months time about how we "agreed" to the conditions and "signed up to them". The only reason we have the conditions we enjoy at LHR, is sheer numbers and a stubborn union.

Carnage Matey!

19th Jan 2007, 18:11

Perhaps it is in your OWN experience that the "bad old days never went away". I work a lot on the Upper Deck and I have almost always enjoyed a good relationship with the flight crew - of course there are a few bad apples, but aren't there everywhere? I try not to take it personally and tar the entire flight crew community with the same brush.
I've worked places in BA where the "bad old days" never even existed. It's purely an LHR thing and particularly bad on long haul.
I must say: it is the first time I have come across the purported LGW training methods. As I have no first-hand knowledge, I can only assume that it is either part of the rumour mill or an isolated case (perhaps ANOTHER person with an axe to grind?). If those allegations were even slightly true, I think that's all pretty sad really.
Sadly not an isolated case. There have been numerous incidences, enough for senior Flight Ops management to have to take the heads of SEP and Customer Service training to task over the issue. They've been warned they are being watched......
It does seem wholly reasonable to me, with regard to the bus and the car park, that majority rule would dictate that 11/15 people should be catered for before the remaining 2.
It is questionable whether the majority would be going to the car park on a B2B anyway, but that was not the defence BASSA employed. They simply said "thats the way it was, thats the way it will be", so we are faced with the ludicrous situation where the bus drives past the car park, round the block to the hotel where it waits for ten minutes while 8 cabin get off and do their air kisses, then drives back round the block to the car park where the remaining 7 cabin crew and 2 pilots get into their cars to drive home. Sensible teamwork?
And I imagine that it would be fair to ask that a CSD also be upgraded should the flight crew get upgrades.

Couldn't agree with you more. The hotel contracts actually state that should the hotel be upgrading (at no cost to BA) then it should be done in the order Captains, FOs, CSDs. So, you can imagine our surprise when BASSA reps start appearing in hotel lobbies telling their staff they cannot upgrade the FOs if they are not upgrading the CSD also. Or CSDs start making a scene demanding an upgrade because the FO has one and BASSA says that the agreement demands they get one too (strangely, BASSA are the only people who claim to have seen this agreement, and cannot produce a paper copy or even the minutes of a meeting where this was 'agreed').

We have saved the company money in ways that are not entirely quantifiable: .......
Your examples are all very admirable. The problem is that savings like those are a drop in the ocean, they are not even of the same order of magnitude as those truly required. How many bottles of wine does that save per flight, and how does that compare with the pay differential between main crew and purser on that flight? What does it cost to delay a 747 for 30 mins while we wait for the QRS? How many washbags can you buy with the sum of the payments for working one down? These are the big savings Willie wants, but BASSA seem to think he'll be content with saving a bottle of salad dressing from each Club tray. They now appear to be very concerned that BA haven't folded on the strength of the ballot result and almost surprised that he might be spoiling for a strike!
Those stairs and baggage "slope" outside Compass are treacherous (don't laugh: YOU do it in heels!), but we grudgingly negotiate them when using the BA1 service (now that the Central Area bus service has been withdrawn) and during back-to-backs;
You have cabin shoes don't you?:ok: On a serious note, the BA1 is coming back, but the demand for its return is symptomatic of some of BASSAs issues. If people choose to live in far flung provinces and commute into LHR then it isn't really BAs job to provide a dedicated bus. It's nice if they do but it's not really a strike issue if they don't.
I think you'll also find that with the airlines that pay their crew peanuts, many of them are on the fiddle: I have never had the "pleasure" of working for a charter company (yet?), but I have many colleagues who have, and who swear that it is the rule rather than the exception to cook the books on the selling of alcohol, and that they were used to seeing everything that wasn't nailed down disappear from the aircraft, something at BA, that would be unthinkable.
Serious allegations which do, I'm afraid, colour an otherwise reasonable post. Virgin aren't on the fiddle. I doubt Britannia, Monarch et al are on the fiddle either. I've seen plenty of room parties on Eurofleet where there were a suspiscious number of miniatures that didn't come from crew purchase so I know plenty of stuff gets nicked from BA too. Pint of milk here, couple of gins there. It goes on.
We KNOW we are going to get shafted, but at least we are putting up as much of a fight as we can - if we didn't, YOU would be writing in 6 months time about how we "agreed" to the conditions and "signed up to them". The only reason we have the conditions we enjoy at LHR, is sheer numbers and a stubborn union.
It didn't have to be that way were in not for Mike Street opposing any serious reform to his empire for about ten years. Now the target is too fat and too juicy to be overlooked. Its the elephant in the savings room and people can't ignore it any longer. Several of the conditions you currently have were signed up to by BASSA, like EG300 and the new contract pay scales. However it seems that when BASSA sign up to something and they don't like it it's BAs obstinance thats to blame (they still claim talks on the new pay scale have been going on for ten years - they were over and done with when BASSA signed the deal in 97!). It contrasts interestingly with their repeated slating of the flight crew, about how we sold out on EG300 (err so did they), how we sold out for money on the hourly rate and now we regret it(the vast majority don't and did rather well out of it) and numerous other examples. They like to portray themselves as the last bastion of the oppressed cabin crew, holding out whilst all around betray them. The reality is that all around have been negotiating sensibly and transforming the way they work with a bit of give and take whilst BASSA have been pulling up the drawbridge. This siege mentality is, I fear, going to lead a lot of our more moderate and valuable crew into an industrial catastrophe that they didn't want and cannot win.

GalleyWench

19th Jan 2007, 22:42

I would like to wish the BA cabin crew best of luck in their negotiations. We at UAL support your efforts to maintain a living wage for all and stop the firing of crew based on sick leave. Our mgmt is doing that to us, unfortunately we have no contract wording on sick leave/discipline. Please stand together regardless !!

Carnage Matey!

19th Jan 2007, 22:57

BA hasn't proposed a pay cut nor has anyone been sacked for being sick. However BASSA are striking for a large pay rise for half their members!

Maus

19th Jan 2007, 23:46

Oh dear, seems there are just two of us left in the room.... When I came back to this site to try and gain another perspective on the issue (apart from only Management and BASSA's, I mean), I had a feeling I would be faced with the same old faces: either you or Sporran. But that's ok. Gosh, where to start...

The "old us and them mentality" was not purely an LHR thing. I agree with you that it was almost solely a Longhaul thing as the shorthaul pilots work as hard as the cabin crew and there is more face-to-face contact, resulting in a better feeling of 'comraderie'. I have been Eurofleet, Gatwick Longhaul and Heathrow Longhaul-based, so I speak from experience.

I still don't believe you about the allegations of SEP instructors at Gatwick. It certainly wasn't taught in my day, and anything in the rumour mill makes its way to the BASSA website pretty quickly - and that would be far too juicy for people to keep to themselves...

On both the BA1 bus and the crew bus to the Arora, I disagree with you: In my post, I was not referring to the BA1, but the Central Area bus. That service has been withdrawn, and it does make sense, but it has added half an hour on to my commute to work. Although I understand your "you have cabin shoes, don't you" comment was made in jest, I should point out that I am prohibited from wearing cabin shoes or loafers with my uniform skirt - (a "court shoe" is recommended.) I love your manipulation of the figures of crew wanting to go to the car park - in my many years of flying, there is ALWAYS a small minority of people not staying at the Arora. Furthermore, your observation of all the air kissing that goes on is not news to me. I don't know how often you have to endure those torturous few minutes, but I have to live with it 3 out of every 4 trips I go on, ie: trips other than back-to-backs. Which brings me neatly to my next point: not everyone chooses to live in "far-flung provinces". You and I have had this conversation before: I am on the "new" contract, find it difficult to make ends meet every month, and so cannot afford to run a car (queue sad music - ha ha) I don't live in a far-flung place - I live on the outskirts of London, so I have to rely on any transport that will get me to work in a timely fashion. First we stopped subsidising the 285 bus, so that was withdrawn, then the Central Area bus disappeared, then they started only running the BA1 to service the Waterside/office based community- so thank goodness that is coming back - I don't know what your experience of public transport is, but I allow a great deal of wiggle-room when it comes to getting to work and in all my years of flying, I have never been late. It is a trying experience dragging my suitcase, cabin bag and handbag up and down stairs, on and off transport, in rain, high winds and on sweltering days in my heels, and that last slope is the one that nearly breaks the camel's back, but I try to come to work groomed and eager. (I was almost drowned out by the violins there...)

I will forgive you your comments about the fiddling that goes on, as I believe you are as jet-lagged as I. I said "charter companies" and I refer to the likes of Air2000, Monarch, Brittania, etc. Not Virgin. I obviously meant it to refer, amongst other "fiddles", to the practice of SELLING alcohol on board, a method which charter companies, and NOT Virgin, employ. Many BA crew are charter veterans, so if you have not been filled in on the various stories, bring it up at your next room party, without prejudice and sit back and listen to the various "cons". I was quite amazed, and although it goes against the grain of my principles (ooh, get me!), I secretly thought it was quite enterprising and showed incredibly ingenious thinking.

I know the small savings I am making are a drop in the ocean, but I was told that those cr*ppy little washbags were worth £26 each (unbelievable!), so each one recycled must make some difference - and times that by the number of flights per day. It's small, I don't get paid extra to do it, but every little bit helps.

You have misunderstood the EG300 issue.The EG300 was agreed to with stipulations by the union, that the management swore they would adhere to - and then went back on their word. We agree it was a necessary change, but the rules were broken by the very people who drew them up, and we take issue with that. We were assured that due to the "special" nature of our job, discretion would be applied - and they even employed a whole new management team to deal with that (hmmm: cost saving...) - so was discretion applied? Was it heck! When someone has their appendix removed and is then told that only 2 days of their recuperation (including the day of operation) will be "discounted" - that is a sorry state of affairs.

The whole payscale thing is my own personal bugbear. I think I am giving my anonymity here by divulging this, but I have had enough face-to-face conversations about this, not to care. The issue HAS been going on for 10 years as there is a band of about 400 crew who started on one contract and were forced onto the new contract or told they could leave. One would suppose that was illegal, but one would be wrong. We were also assured that when we reached the top of our payscale, the issue would be "looked at" again. I reached the top of the payscale 2 years ago, and I am wanting answers now. I realise that I will be sacrificed yet again, but that, I guess, is the art of negotiation.
I just wonder, CarnageMatey if you shouldn't be directing your ire at our management and their MISmanagement of our company and its resources, instead of all the issues you have with your cabin crew colleagues?

I agree my union are a little over-dramatic, but perhaps they are taking a leaf out of our leader's book: to paraphrase our wonderful CEO, "a reasonable man gets nowhere". I reiterate what I said earlier: yes, I am going to get shafted, but I'm damned if I am going to let them do it to me with my smiling, willing co-operation.

It seems senseless you and I going over old ground. You look after your interests and I'll look after mine. Although I'm sure we have both learnt a bit from another perspective, it hasn't truly changed our opinion, has it? Let's just agree to disagree.
On that note, I bid you farewell, as I need to get my sleep in and my energy up, for tonight is Saturday Night! Whoo!

The Blu Riband

20th Jan 2007, 07:59

Cabin Crew management is appalling, no doubts there.
But, is that because they have to deal with the TGWU and Bassa's ridiculous work practices and union agreements and their never negotiate tactics.

CC are very inflexible and maybe Bassa have given BA the opportunity to finally sort out some of those issues once and for all.

Time Bassa's lies were exposed too!

Carnage Matey!

20th Jan 2007, 14:04

The "old us and them mentality" was not purely an LHR thing. I agree with you that it was almost solely a Longhaul thing as the shorthaul pilots work as hard as the cabin crew and there is more face-to-face contact, resulting in a better feeling of 'comraderie'.
There is a better feeling of cameraderie, but I can assure you the EF crew don't work anything like as hard as the Airbus crews. Lots of Compass and CAT turnarounds, no fixed links, the famous one out- standover - one back HEL trip, a third of all trips involving a single sector day. Hmmmmm
I still don't believe you about the allegations of SEP instructors at Gatwick. It certainly wasn't taught in my day, and anything in the rumour mill makes its way to the BASSA website pretty quickly - and that would be far too juicy for people to keep to themselves...
Which is part of the problem. You never get told anything bad by BASSA. I tried to tell somebody about the LRBL being built in the wrong location recently, they called me a liar! You do know about that, don't you? I don't blame the crew for the lack of feedback, it's weak IFS management who don't like to feed anything negative back. As for the no first class food thing, it's all over the BASSA forum. Have a dig in the SFG forum. ;)

Maus

20th Jan 2007, 14:20

...oh dear. When I really thought it wouldn't come to this, it appears my worst fears have been realised: word on the street is that talks have not so much "been adjourned" as broken down. It seems that the only concession that has been negotiated and agreed on, is the re-instatement of the BA1 bus on weekends... I thought that was a done deal? So that is the sum total on what the two sides have been able to agree on? In THREE days? That is pathetic!
I just find it all so depressing. Either way, it's a death knell for my 'career'. If I can only just make ends meet now (and that is WITH no room service, no getting p*ssed downroute and fancy schmancy meals, Delsy dining and not running a car), I sure as hell am going to struggle over the next few years, so a change of career beckons, I guess. Teaching inner-city delinquents, here we come! Sad really, as I am one of the "cheap" crew - I guess the older ones and those with financial support from partners will stay.
So may I bid all on this site adieu. I expect the inevitable divisiveness will ensue and that is too embarassing and depressing to bear.
Galley Wench - thanks for the support. Tough times ahead for all...

Sporran

20th Jan 2007, 15:08

Maus,

Whatever you think - I am most certainly NOT anti-cabin crew. If we were to meet on board an aeroplane tomorrow I am certain you would agree with that promise.:ok:

What I do feel very strongly about is that your BASSA reps have been on an ego-trip and have led a lot of really good folk into a very difficult situation. I am pretty certain that CM is not the rottweiler that he appears to be - well surely not!!!!!:p I do think that we all vent our frustrations on an anonymous forum, more so that if we were face-to-face. There are a lot of points (from both sides) raised on this forum that I have a lot of empathy with. However, to often pilots are insulted for telling the truth!! :ugh:

Problems:
- The incident regarding building a LRBL at the wrong door, without evening informing the captain, is appalling.:uhoh:
- The garbage that is being spouted by some cabin crew instructors at Cranebank is wrong.:eek:
- The downright lies that came from BASSA regarding the pension 'agreement' and the totally pathetic personal attack on one of the BALPA reps who had spent so much effort in trying to secure the best pension for ALL of us. Were these lies just to try and gain some 'political gain' and to touch egos that could not comprehend the financial ability of the BALPA rep they villified.:mad:
- At a time when BALPA & BASSA had been working together to secure our pensions some of us thought (and hoped) that it might be the dawn of a better atmosphere - until the unwarranted attack above.:sad:
- The atmosphere either side of the flight deck door is certainly very present, but almost exclusively on L/H. Thankfully there is a really good working relationship on S/H - well 99.9% of the time!!

The expression 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter' sums up some of the seemingly polarised views on here.

I was pretty certain that WW was going to take BASSA on, but I dare not think what will happen next. I'm really sorry that you have been led by scaremongering and rhetoric, rather than by hard facts and and considered debate.:sad:

ABird747

20th Jan 2007, 18:22

The situation that we as crew and our management find ourselves in seems to be entirely different depending on whom you listen to...

If you listen to BASSA and read the postings on their website it seems that the company is doing a large-scale smash and grab on our Ts&Cs with imposition being the order of the day.

If you listen to Amicus they are in talks with the company and have made some progress. I had a letter from their full time officer on my door mat when I got home with an update on the issues in dispute as follows:

Pensions - BA Reps will be meeting on the 22nd Jan to discuss the proposals prior to membership being consulted.

Buses - Will be extended to run over the weekend.

LGW Breakfast - Offer has been made by BA, the decision on whether to accept it rests with LGW fleet reps and LGW crew.

EG300 - Matter is of major importance, any review is the property of all BA employees. There are items specific to cabin crew that Amicus are adressing and BA have acknowledged this and proposed a number of changes. Proposals have been made to change ill-health retirement arrangements also.

Report time - BA admit there are issues and have agreed that it can be dealt with at Worldwide Steering.

WTR - BA agree that 900 hours is the maximum number of flying hours permissible. Training days are now being considered as duty. Discussion are continuing.

MAN - Objections at the manner in which the closre was managed have been registered along with concerns over the future of GLA. As the decision on MAN will not be reversed, the closure will not be included in ongoing discussions.

Preferred Seller - BA's proposals have been withdrawn. BA invited Amicus to come forward with ideas to maximise revenue.

Fixed links - Has been referred back to EF Steering. Amicus raised the issue of rest breaks under the WTR. BA has been asked to demostrate their compliance with this in their duty time allocations. Further discussions will take place on this matter.

Single Supervisory Grade - Amicus believes that this has been dealt with outside the current discussions and therefore does not form part of their current discussions.

PSR/JNR Swap - This is of primary importance to Amicus. Further discussions will take place on this issue although BA have stated their determination to go ahead with this proposal. Amicus has asked for guarantees in respect of promotion and employment continuity. Discussion will continue.

Post '97 Payscales - Item is of utmost importance. BA has said they could make money available to help resolve the issue. In terms of over all costs there seems to be no opportunity for levelling of the payscales. Discussions are ongoing.

Maybe I am reading this wrong but it does not seem that discussions have ground to a halt as the 'walking egos' of BASSA seem to suggest. I'll hold my hands up now and say that I am not a great fan of industrial action, I've been out before and will do again if I need to because I am left with no choice but we do not seem to have reached that point yet.

Unfortunately a large number of my colleagues seem to wait on every word (and text message) uttered by BASSA and consume each pearl of wisdom with unnerring trust without stopping to question a thing that they have been told. The reps are held in such reverence that to dare to consider any other point of view except that which is passed down from on high is shouted down as herecy and treason by their coterie of bully-boys.

Here's hoping that one day the politicking and double-speak that is used to brainwash a large number of cabin crew is seen for what it is before too much damage is done.

Sporran

20th Jan 2007, 18:51

ABird747,

Your post makes more sense than those who state that only the bus situation was resolved.

I would strongly suggest that there has been some movement on several of the issues, but that would not suit the BASSA cause.
- In a BASSA posting that I saw some weeks ago BASSA were stating that what THEY said was the absolute truth!!:eek: It is a very BIG statement to make that you are 100% correct and that means that the other team are 100% wrong.
- Words such as 'fair and balanced' were being used regarding proposals. What is fair and balanced to one party most certainly will not be to the other party.

ABird747, I hope that the info in your post is closer to the truth. At least that means they did negotiate, which is not what 'other sources' would have you believe.

I suggest we lock them all in the same room - and not let them out until they have sorted the situation out. ;)

keeperboy

20th Jan 2007, 21:45

Both BASSA and BA management have always been totally useless at 'negotiating' anything.

Just to clear up one common mis-conception here.

Box payments, overtime, crew rest periods etc are NOT included in this.

The only changes that BA can 'impose' on us are 'consultative' matters. In other words, those terms/conditions/structures/perks that we have or enjoy, but do not actually form part of our contract of employment. Attendance management process, shuttle buses, number of pursers on board etc etc. BA are meant to consult with the union on these issues but can impose changes. Of course the union can retaliate by announcing industrial action (which they are likely to do at midday on sunday).

Our other terms and conditions, such as allowences and those contained within out agreements (mbts, bunk rest periods etc) are contractual agreements that BA cannot impose changes to.

The only way these can be changed is with the consent of the employees.

Just thought i'd pass the above info on as I spoke to an IR lawyer yesterday for clarification as I was getting worried about all this talks of losing thousands cos we were going on the hourly rate and it would be imposed and blah blah blah.

ABird747

21st Jan 2007, 12:06

The hourly rate is not on the table though! I have been in to the BASSA office (both the Compass one and their lovely bedsit) and asked to see the proposal from the company to introduce the hourly rate and NO ONE can produce it.

But even if we did go on the hourly rate do you *really* think we would be that hard up? Look at the SFG pay for the ex-NSP routes, all of the trips that we used to do based on meal allowances are now worth nore under their hourly-rate arrangement.

Every time someone starts banging on about how the hourly rate wil be so bad on the bus or on the aircraft I suggest they go and ask the pilots how they are getting on with their hourly rate as I don't hear many complaints coming from the other side of the door.

If the money that BA is going to make available for an hourly rate includes all the money that they would have spent on meal allowances (and DES, NIA and DOA I think) rolled into one big pot and then divided out by the total number of flying hours that every crew member does and divvied out. It's the same pot of money just being divided differently. Therefore I fail to see how if it is the same pot of money that's being given out AND the tax office have said they will not tax it, how it can be said that we would be worse off. True, when we go to NRT we won't be on $$$ for meals but when we go to DEL, HRE, BOM, JFK et al we will be making up for it. I for one go to the 'other' places much more than I go to NRT so for me it can only be a good thing.

Glamgirl

21st Jan 2007, 13:49

Carnage Matey, I feel compelled to reply to your claim about LGW training and pilots and first class food. I did my 777 conversion course in Dec 06 and at no point during the 5 days were we told about who can and cannot eat first food. I don't understand where this has come from apart from someone with a grudge (I'm not saying you btw). At LGW (can only speak for EOG and SF) we've been well known for our Crm and looking out for each other. I did a there and back yesterday (flight time 1 hr each way). I was on my own in CE, but I still went into the flight deck at least 4 times during each sector (no, I'm not a floozy :}). I believe it's nice to be nice, and most of our colleagues do the same. Unfortunately it's the few (from either side) that ruins it for many. Ever heard of such a thing as "kill them with kindness"? That's what I do when I don't get satisfactory responses, whether it's cc, fc or pax. I dare you to try it for at least 5 flights, and see what happens.

Also, please remember that most of people who post on the SFLGW threads on the bassa web site are actually LHR crew. Go figure?? Confused the hell out of me I have to say.

Get Smart

21st Jan 2007, 15:15

74 Bird. I love your post. I'm in BASSA but I have to say, I think CC89 are being far more professional about this. I want to hear BALANCED facts from my union to whom I pay £16 per month to. Not newsletters slagging off management and name calling. And what's the 'diary of a crew member' about? I'm an adult. Talk to me like one. I'm a little disillusioned at BASSA at the moment. I'm not saying BA are right and they're wrong. Far from it. I'm just not so sure that talks are being as constructive as they could be. If BALPA can do it and CC89 can do it, then BASSA must be able to.
As for the hourly rate, I may well be in favour of it. I don't necessarily think it would be a bad thing. Lets see what they propose. I for one, would l like to earn a more consistent wage. Our pays now are totally dependant on what kind of trips you have and not the hours. If we're all doing our 900hrs then we shoud all be paid accordingly. It makes more sense.
Sporran - you're right. Lock them in a room and don't let them out till they resolve it!

Tiger

22nd Jan 2007, 10:16

ABird...BA is also a short haul airline so regards to hourly pay there is a difference. And how about loosing unpopular payment desination payments?

ABird747

22nd Jan 2007, 16:39

There was some arrangement on shorthaul that took care of their - lots of duty hours but not many flying hours - situation. I can't remember what it was as it didn't concern me, it may have been some kind of flight pay (that rings a bell actually).

What about the destination payments? I haven't had one for months but I'd be getting a slice of the DES pot everytime I came to work if it was rolled into the hourly rate.

I wish CC89 had had some simple tag-line that was easil picked up and understood aloong the lines of :

'the same money - distributed per hour - not taxed'

Maybe that way crew would not have been caught up in the bluster that BASSA was spouting all emanating from their rep who was doing the negotiation who didn't even understand the proposal.

GalleyWench

22nd Jan 2007, 22:50

It seems that your managements PR are working in overdrive to turn the public against you, sadly. They are quoting an average sick usage of 22 days per year. While on the surface that seems high- does that factor in maternity leave or occupational injury days lost as those would explain that high number??

plodding along

23rd Jan 2007, 08:07

Oh dear, what a mess you cabin crew have got in to, if the company had actually railroaded any of your (mostly ludicrous) payments and agreements you would have a point because these form part of your contract of employment.
BA hasn’t though have they? They are making a few legitimate changes in an attempt to get the magic 10% operating margin that the company needs to SURVIVE.:ugh:

I notice the crew put up a smoke screen to try and hide how good you have it, remember a lot of us here are not stupid and we know what is going on.
My sister in law is LHR shorthaul and my brother is a longhaul Purser.
He does clear over 3K some months what with back to back payments, destination payments, one down payments and overtime payments.

Shorthaul wages are more respectable but look at how much you work, I know you have long days but these are all due to you having to be bussed back to compass for 2 and a half hours plus between flights, for shorthaul if you add up your actual flying hours (block time spent on the aircraft) over a month you average 51 verses 80 for pilots, that’s 63%, so a shorthaul pilot on a 75% contract still works harder than a full time crew member. To do an annual comparison my sister did 493 flying hours last year including some overtime, most pilots are 800-850.
Take your £1700 monthly wage and multiply by about 1.65 to get a realistic equivalent wage.
It’s not so bad then really is it?

Remember it’s your union agreements that keeps the inefficiency going and that’s what rattles BA. If BASSA ever showed any flexibility in keeping the operation going then you would't have the parent-child relationship that now exists.

Now having said all that nothing is changing, you are NOT loosing any money, all the payments stay, you will still keep doing 500 hours per year, you still keep the 1-2-1 trips (and please don’t tell us these are rare, we see your rosters, there are 2 files full of them on top of your drop files in compass), I would urge all pilots and ground staff to go and have a thumb through and see for yourself how little actual FLYING is on them as opposed to actual duty hours.

I don’t want to see you stripped of money or given awful rosters like easyjet and you aren’t!!! I don’t want to see you all miserable, I don’t want you to have to leave. Just please realise that you have something amazing and due to the inflexibility of BASSA from the 70’s you cost the company a fortune.

All the company is asking is that you actually work for what you are paid and not go sick every sunny weekend / Ascot / Wimbledon / Christmas / Lagos / Kuwait etc etc (don’t deny it, some crew actually brag about it!)

If the payscales are unfair then help each other out and merge them not just demand an increase, sure the top guys would take a cut but it would end up fair, and that’s what you want isn’t it? It worked for the pilots, a linear scale with hourly meal pay AND an hourly flying pay in lieu of box payments and the wage bill stayed exactly the SAME.

Please don’t believe the BASSA hype, please don’t destroy this airline, at least not until you actually have something real to strike about.
Please come to work, you will be supported and most of you would be very surprised at how many of your colleagues have no actual intention of striking anyway.

There, my first rant.

cambioso

23rd Jan 2007, 13:51

Well.....Are you on strike from 29th or not?
I can't make head or tail of the BA emails sent to my exec club "box"!!
I've got quite a lot of interlining to do over the next couple of weeks and I always (used to!?) "Fly the flag" where I can......
Camb.

Litebulbs

23rd Jan 2007, 14:27

Plodding Along

It must be a great atmophere in you family at the moment!

Do you also work for BA?

The Black Baron

23rd Jan 2007, 14:43

I have it on good authortity that WW has plans to sack any crew who are striking. Whilst BASSA keep saying it is not possible to be sacked, any employment lawyer will tell you otherwise and BA know that. All dismissals during the strike will be automatically deemed unfair and crew will have the option to take BA to an employment tribunal. This will have to be privately funded (legal aid not available) Crew may however have the option to sue BASSA for informing them incorrectly about this situation. Willie is prepared to make an example out of the first few hundred who don't report for duty. This, in the grand scheme of things, adds up to very little in unfair dismissal claims. (max £60000) Realistically cabin crew could expect a payout of between £8000 and £30000 depending on length of service.

He will have broken the strike on the first day as crew won't hesitate to report to work on day two after seeing their collegues sacked and there will then be a massive distrust between CC and BASSA. Crew will withdraw support from BASSA and BASSA will effectively be finished.

In the short term there are still many LGW crew who are fully trained on the 777 and 747 who could be used in the short term till those dismissed could be replaced with new entrants. With a weakened union and a strong if not ruthless BA management team in control very few would be brave enough to take them on , not just cabin crew but all areas of the company.

Just a piece of advice to any cabin crew thinking of striking, it may be well worth a quick phone call to a solicitor or citizens advice to confirm the facts regarding diamissal during legal industrial action.

Litebulbs

23rd Jan 2007, 15:08

Black Baron

If WW carried out the action of sacking strikers, I would imagine it would unite every unionised worker in every department throughout BA. A direct attack on a legal strike undermines every union within BA whether you agree with the BASSA position or not.

I think that BASSA might cover the legal aid side of things.

plodding along

23rd Jan 2007, 16:10

Plodding Along

It must be a great atmophere in you family at the moment!

Do you also work for BA?

Yes I do, such a shame at the moment though, great airline, the best routes, best terms and conditions yet some of the most ungrateful employees. Still it will all be over soon and we can all look for jobs somewhere else.

Litebulbs

23rd Jan 2007, 16:25

So are your family BASSA members? What do they think?

Get Smart

23rd Jan 2007, 18:06

Hate to admit it, but sounds like a jolly good plan to me? Why would BA even have to let it go to court? Surely they would settle outside and save more money? Whats a few hundred crew? I do feel that BASSA have not informed crew of all the facts. They have been lenient with the truth. They consistently deny that staff could be sacked, but they can be! This risk should be known to the cc so they can at least weigh it up themselves. Most of them would probabaly still choose to strike, but at least they would be under no illusion that it could go either way. Whether Barons theory is right or not, BA will pull out every trick in the book and one way or another, WW needs to find a way of successfully challenging the unions and with neither side perpared to back down, it's going to be handbags at dawn!! :{

whattimedoweland

23rd Jan 2007, 20:24

OK folks I attended an open meeting yesterday with Simon Talling Smith,Genaeral Manager of Cabin Crew.

He was asked if crew could/would be sacked if they went on strike?.

His answer was a clear NO as the strike was legal.

WTDWL.

Human Factor

23rd Jan 2007, 20:35

Best he reads THIS (http://www.dti.gov.uk/employment/employment-legislation/employment-guidance/page18476.html) then (about half way down).

The consequences for employees of taking industrial action

Employees who take industrial action will know that there may be damaging financial consequences for them, since they are unlikely to receive any pay if they withdraw their labour. They should also be aware that they are putting their jobs at risk.

An employer may take various measures, up to and including dismissal, against any employee who takes industrial action. An employee who is dismissed by his employer while taking industrial action may lose his right to claim unfair dismissal.

A tribunal would automatically rule that the dismissal was unfair as the action is legal. However, there is no automatic right to reinstatement and the compensation is limited.

boredcounter

23rd Jan 2007, 22:08

'If WW carried out the action of sacking strikers, I would imagine it would unite every unionised worker in every department throughout BA. A direct attack on a legal strike undermines every union within BA whether you agree with the BASSA position or not.'
BA workers exit stage left, enter stage right 'Eastern EU workers'
Just a real silly thought.
Lite, look at unionised industries in the UK that go before you. All failed, all blamed the management when they did.
BA is no bigeer than Rover?

Litebulbs

23rd Jan 2007, 22:10

Of course they can sack anybody. You can speed, steel, kill even, but it is not legal and therefore you will suffer the consequence!. If you are paid money in compensation for being sacked unfairly, then the company has broken the law, that is why you are being compensated.

apaddyinuk

23rd Jan 2007, 22:20

Can anyone actually provide details of when BA last sacked workers for LEGAL industrial actions??? Also when Willie Walsh sacked people for LEGAL industrial action...he didnt do it in EI!
Scare mongerers are pathetic, they really are!

boredcounter

23rd Jan 2007, 22:41

You are a qualified avionics engineer, why get so fired up, you'll get a job elsewhere. If the BA Cabin Crew stike, well it is their jobs

Litebulbs

23rd Jan 2007, 23:14

Boredcounter
Its coz I'm a leftie tradesunionist. I fully understand that probably a majority of the people who have voted to strike, would not back any one else, but it doesn't mean I can't!!!

Glamgirl

23rd Jan 2007, 23:36

As mentioned by several others, crew who strike can be sacked. Whether STS said "No, we won't sack anyone" at the meeting or not, crew can still be sacked. And you can bet your bottom dollar that there's a big team going through everyone's files at the moment, looking for even the smallest excuse for getting rid of strikers.

The more I hear/read, the more annoyed I get. Most Yes voters don't even know the reasons why they said yes. I've been on to the bassa forum, where I got such a bashing for having a different opinion. The behaviour of the members of that forum has left me so disgusted that I'm now leaving bassa because I felt bullied by my so-called colleagues (so much for them being bullied by management). By one poster, I was told "nobody likes you, nobody cares about you, why don't you just F*** off?". So much for being adults, eh?

I can't believe these people may lose me my job.

For the record I really like our girls and boys who wear stripes (well, most of them anyway). We have some great times on the 73, and I usually come back from work with a smile on my face :) (for the record, not THAT kind of smile :ooh:)

keeperboy

24th Jan 2007, 14:04

BASSA has cancelled the first day of strike as willie walsh has intervened and requested direct one on one talks with T&G head.

Shanwick Shanwick

24th Jan 2007, 14:10

It's interesting that BA are still taking bookings for the strike days during the 2nd and 3rd periods but not the first.

A few sackings will certainly focus the minds on days 2 and 3!

twisted-diamonddolly

24th Jan 2007, 23:21

Dick Deadeye

25th Jan 2007, 03:40

Glamgirl

I've had a peek on the BASSA forum, courtesy of an old "Auntie" of mine, I bet some of the rubbish on there makes you want to cry! Contrary opinions not required or accepted on that site.

And how about this sparkling gem.

Those people you refer to will not loose you your job , more like they will enable you to keep doing a job I guess you Like I love.

:yuk:

If she really believes that, perhaps Twisted Diamond Dolly might be interested in buying a half share in the Brooklyn Bridge from me.

Lemmings!

THE FLYING COOK

25th Jan 2007, 10:07

GlamGirl
Having read your provocative comments on the bassa website I can say that members were not annoyed at your stance more at your tone. Winding up members of the forum was never going to go down well. I respect your decision not to strike even if I think its shortsighted. But your attitude sucks. Those people you refer to will not loose you your job , more like they will enable you to keep doing a job I guess you Like I love.

Whats interesting is that the bassa forum has become a complete rant against ANYTHING or ANYBODY that even dares to say one word against the mighty bassa. The problem is that a lot of bassa's members don't realise that their union is political in many ways and MOST of the 12 points they are argueing about are nonsence in the big scheme of life.

Twisted diamonddolly - look at the big picture out there, the real world. Its dammed hard I can tell you. Glamgirl - well done for standing up for yourself.:D

JIM JAM

25th Jan 2007, 10:28

Glamgirl, not sure who you are but from one of the 'stripey ones' -Well Done!!
I just wish that everyone had your attitude,a real breath of fresh air, I know most do and here's to hoping we can keep our little community at LGW intact.

Dozza2k

25th Jan 2007, 10:49

so if ww has cancelled all the services out of london on the strike days, how is he going to know who is striking and who isn't?
he can't expect a crew to turn up for a canceled flight/trip

Hotel Mode

25th Jan 2007, 11:13

Crew are being told to report as usual so yes he can. They may fly crew out on empty aircraft to start the operation quickly when the strike ends

WeLieInTheShadows

25th Jan 2007, 11:48

It's so they know who to take staff travel away from:uhoh:

Zimbo5

25th Jan 2007, 12:01

I'm one of the "stripey sort" previously mentioned - and thought I'd pose a question for those of you who are going to strike.

I'll be operating a trip which returns on the first day of the strike. How do CC feel about operating this trip and what does BASSA advise.
Will you simply not report for the duty as the return date infringes the first stike date ( Leaves Monday 29th but arrives Tuesday 30th ).
Will you opt to remain down-route and perhaps operate/position home a few days later.
Will you operate both sectors without a thought as you don't feel you're infringing the strike by working inbound and not outbound.

Why do I pose this question ? Because in these somewhat divisive times it won't be a bed of roses for those of us at work with you - when it comes to crew relations in particular. It might be helpfull to know not only your thoughts/feelings - but also are there any union rules regarding this that you are aware of & we are not.

Forwarned is forearmed.

THE FLYING COOK

25th Jan 2007, 12:20

Zimbo5

It only affects crew who are reporting for duty ex LHR/LGW on the days of the strikes. If you are flying back on Tues 30th, you are expected to work - thats both BA and Bassa's view. Hope that helps.

keeperboy

25th Jan 2007, 12:20

Only crew belonging to BASSA and reporting for a duty ex LHR/LGW on either the 30th or 31st of January are legally able to strike.

If you are downroute on 29th/30th/31st you are expected by both BA and BASSA to operate home if required.

blackace

25th Jan 2007, 12:23

Not really my business but if I can be allowed to make a comment it might be useful for some of you to know.

Just a comment from one who has been involved in a few industrial disputes from both sides.

Sacking staff is not the preferred option of most management. It escalates the dispute and alienates the management in the eyes of the public.

If a dispute continues to the point of bringing in temporary labour (The management have every right to do this), the situation takes a turn for the worse as far as the strikers are concerned.

Mostly striking staff are informed upon returning that due to losses during the strike action their jobs are no longer available, in other words they are to be made redundant. This effectively terminates legally any existing contract of employment. By law you must be told this prior to actually being made redundant (normally about 2 weeks notice but can vary greatly).

Prior to actually issuing redundancy notices staff are then offered alternative employment with the same company, but the terms and conditions of the new contract reflect what the management wanted in the first place. The job can even be the same but the job description must be different (a simple rewording of your job description and perfectly legal).

Employees then face either signing the new contract and agreeing to abide by the new terms and conditions, or refusing to sign and accepting the redundancy.

Here is the nasty bit. Because you have refused to accept an alternative offer of employment from the same employer you are said to be resigning yourself, in that case the company has no legal obligation to pay you any compensation and you are not even entitled to redundancy pay. You must work your normal notice period as if you were resigning normally.

Many industrial disputes large and small end up going down this road and almost all management know its a card they hold up their sleeve.

That is the reason most unions will not strike for more than a day at a time, it prevents the company installing temporary staff.

I wish you all luck in your dispute, but I also cannot think of one dispute that has resulted in the unions actually winning in the end after extended strike action. the days of powerful unions are long gone.

Just listen to the Miners, Wapping Print workers, Rover. all have gone down this road and the management eventually pulled this card from their sleeve.

I hope you don't mind me commenting and I hope the information above is of some use.

Zimbo5

25th Jan 2007, 12:25

Cheers for that - should help me keep my size nines out of it by coming up with duff gen should the need arise ;)

Re-Heat

25th Jan 2007, 13:41

Financial Times:

British Airways’ troubles

Published: January 25 2007 13:25 | Last updated: January 25 2007 13:25

The challenge of dragging its workforce into the 21st century is not one faced by British Airways alone. All the European flag carriers are grappling with the same Herculean task. Planned industrial action by BA’s cabin crew staff, though, appears to be a big step backwards.

The proposed strikes would be the first official action for a decade, and their financial impact could be significant. BA earns an estimated £20m a day in traffic revenues. Potentially forfeiting at least this for each strike-day will make it more difficult for Willie Walsh, chief executive, to meet his elusive 10 per cent operating margin target.

Rather surprisingly, though, Mr Walsh has some reasons to feel encouraged. The dispute does not seem to centre around the two main problems he faces – reducing the pension deficit, and changing working practices before the imminent move to London Heathrow’s Terminal 5. Instead, BA’s cabin crew, which represents nearly a third of its 44,000 workforce, seems most upset about attempts to reduce sick leave to BA’s target of nine days a year. This is still well above the UK average of seven, and is but one indication of how far BA still has to go towards competitive industry norms. After five years of restructuring, its average costs per employee remain among the highest in the industry globally, and 25 per cent above those of low-cost competitors Ryanair and Easyjet.

Cabin crew staff’s focus on a relatively minor issue, though, shows that Mr Walsh is making some progress. Two-thirds of BA’s workforce have apparently agreed to the changes in working practice necessary to make the move to T5 a success. This is immensely positive for the long term. And shareholders’ ability to weather shocks has often been tested. BA’s shares have risen 64 per cent over the last 12 months. But, at about 12 times 2007 consensus earnings, they are bang on their long-term average valuation. An extended strike, though, would be a severe test of investors’ tolerance.
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2007

J.Don.

25th Jan 2007, 15:06

I can not believe most of what I have read about the Strike, does,nt any-body realise that you are playing into managments hands & afew days of this behaviour will result in a lot of loss making services being cancelled for good, no service , no cabin crew.

misshostie

26th Jan 2007, 07:42

It's a risk most seem prepared to take.
I'm not sure where BA stands and how long they can go before they have the possible chance of folding, but one would assume that it is a calculated risk these people have taken. People don't strike for no good reason. A strike is usually the last resort when communication has broken down.
Blackace - I have no prior knowledge or experiences with strike action however I am a bit concerned as to why staff don't strike one day, come back the next, strike another, come back etc if this is to avoid temporary labour.
This strike to me is not a public transport strike, it's not a car manufacturer strike, this is a strike on a MASSIVE scale. Some 75,000 passengers are affected each day. One could hypothetically assume 50% are in favour of the strike but are inconvenienced, the other 50% are not sure what all the fuss is about and are annoyed they had to make alternative arrangements.
This is a big kick in the guts for BA management and should be taken seriously. Like you say Blackace, you are correct about being offered your job back for less conditions however it is in my opinion that history will repeat itself again and again should this course of action be taken.They're already unhappy, make them unhappier and the knives will come out.
If BA were to recruit a whole new crew it would cost them a lot of money and time, not to mention their reputation while flights are cancelled in the mean time to train new crew.
They're not asking for much in my eyes ANYWAY!

Lucifer

26th Jan 2007, 09:18

People don't strike for no good reason. A strike is usually the last resort when communication has broken down.
Hence why BASSA refusing to go to ACAS is peculiar...actually it is not peculiar really if BASSA are just being provocative fools.

Lucifer

26th Jan 2007, 09:21

They're not asking for much in my eyes ANYWAY!
Quite right - they are inconsequential, little, silly matters, which if imposed have a huge cost on the airline for little gain for the cabin crew.

misshostie

26th Jan 2007, 09:26

Dogs_ears_up

26th Jan 2007, 10:12

What I cannot understand is that this situation has been made a mountain out of a molehill. Why can't the management just accept! Perhaps they should do a simple pros and cons list and they might see!

Gee!!! It's all so simple really, now we look at it that way. Negotiations, profitability - nah! Who cares about all that boring stuff.

Let's all just throw a tantrum and stamp our feet until we get what we want.

misshostie should become a BASSA rep, if she' not already: With those negotiating skills, crew will be sitting pretty in next to no time.

:ugh:

blackace

26th Jan 2007, 11:01

There is the ulterior management motive for not budging, the fact that they have to soften up the union for the coming move to T5. I am heavily involved with the T5 project and a lot of people are going to have to get used to a lot of changes there.

the problem with these kind of disputes as misshostie rightly pointed out is that it is NOT a car plant or something similar, it is the public who ultimately suffer the most, so the best comparison would probably be a London underground transport strike. Similar numbers affected, but not losing anywhere near as much money as airline passengers will.

Any strike that dramatically affects the public will never get public support, WW is counting on this.

If BA were to recruit a whole new crew it would cost them a lot of money and time

Woops, the old "I am irreplaceable" mistake, you are not of course, no one is. that was exactly what Wapping print strike workers said and everyone else believed, within days new workers appeared and production resumed. The strike was lost almost as soon as it had started. a very clever management with clear ideas what they wanted. Even well trained firemen can be replaced if the need arises, no one is safe and no one should count on the "It took months/years to train me so it will take months/years to replace me" gambit.

Remember where WW comes from and his past conflicts with the unions, he was brought in to be hard nosed and he's doing exactly what he was told to do. He's clever, be careful.

T5 looms, I actually think WW has already achieved some of his goals and is already suppressing a smile. The vote was huge, but internally staff opinion is divided, and divided we fall. The real test will be just how many staff actually do strike, that will be the final whistle that decides who has actually won the dispute regardless of whether it continues on or not.

I am all for your strike if you feel its justified, and even if I am not, the vote being so overwhelming gives you the right to take such action. But to win or even compete you need to be cleverer than your opponent, and in this case I dont think BASSA are because their thoughts are still clouded by old unionistic attitudes.

Lets just hope that some compromise can be made before Tuesday, but if it is, it will have to come from the unions I think, I cant see any possibility of WW compromising anything, after all its his brief, its his job to do exactly what he's doing and he has a long time to work out his strategy.

OscarCOG

26th Jan 2007, 16:18

blackace
vote being so overwhelming :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:
The often quoted 96% support is actually 96% of BASSA members who voted. :eek:
Those who voted to strike 8300 divided by CC in BA 14500 is a less than impressive 57% :eek:
Factor in the "strike breakers/thorw a sickie mob" and this strike will quickly collapse. :uhoh:
I suppose that is why there are 6 LH services running from LGW plus all the other routes with cargo. On Tue when it is known how many won't strike a few more services will be reinstated. :)
After the 12 week industrial action protection limit is reached the hardcore strikers will be shown the door!!! :ok:

Smell the Coffee

26th Jan 2007, 20:26

What I find sad is that many of the crew I am flying with are now expressing doubts as to whether BASSA are justified in organizing this strike...it seems many people voted 'yes' not out of conviction, but out of intimidation..especially so for the most junior crew, mainly on shorthaul. How very, very sad.
What is even worse, many crew do not apparently know what exactly they are striking for...that really says a lot. :bored:

blackace

26th Jan 2007, 23:37

The often quoted 96% support is actually 96% of BASSA members who voted.
Those who voted to strike 8300 divided by CC in BA 14500 is a less than impressive 57%

NOW THAT I DID NOT KNOW !!!

apaddyinuk

27th Jan 2007, 00:16

Stormin and Coffee, thanks for your comments, but as I said this is not here to discuss the situation. Its simply a request I suppose to not discuss the situation on duty.

However the ballots were sent to our residence and posted so there was no one standing over the balloters shoulders telling them what to vote.

And secondly, EG300 is not the primary reason for the strike. There are many many issues. And for the record, the reason why EG300 is included is primarily because management have been breaking agreements made regarding the origional introduction of EG300. And I assure you that we are not going on strike over "ingrown toenails"!!! Must admit, thats the funniest thing I have heard since all this started!

900

27th Jan 2007, 01:04

I like the way mishostie blames BA management. Nobody else then?
I'm not travelling staff but I know you are not as "world class" as you think you are. Look at the press!
Go on strike -nobody in the real world (that is The Cty, Wall St. Japan China) gives two monkies about your collective hissy fit.
You will lose pay, staff travel and performance bonus - what will you get back?
Byeeee!

900

27th Jan 2007, 01:47

I have been told that pay office was Thursday and Friday fielding calls asking :

1) how do I terminate check off to T&G?
2) how do I transfer to Amicus?

Clever that! Same union in May 07. Still, shows BASSA persuasion / intimidation on wain.

Dick Deadeye

27th Jan 2007, 02:37

What I cannot understand is that this situation has been made a mountain out of a molehill. Why can't the management just accept!
And there you have it! :*

My view is the right one, cos I say it is, and I is a stewardess, so there!

Until BA gets rid of this precious attitude amongst some of its CC, whereby if you dare to disagree with them on any point then you are automatically in the wrong - and you only said it because you don't understand them / hate them / are jealous of them / got turned down for CC - then there is sod all chance of a meaningful dialogue or negotiated settlement with them.

Whilst some may have talents and qualifications that could earn them more money in other fields, the fact remains that 2 "O" levels and a few weeks training are all that are required of them, and the vast majority could not earn anything like the levels of remuneration they receive in BA.

Cabin service standards are slipping, with the increasingly prevelant attitude of "sling the meals out and retire to the bunks as fast as possible" becoming ever more commented on by those who pay their wages.

They are being led into a battle they can't win, by a union that cares little about anyone other than senior long-haul CC grades at LHR.

BA did not arrange this battle in order to lose it, a point that seems lost on many cabin crew as they ponder why the airline is being sooo nasty and beastly to them.

The inexorable march to the edge of the cliff continues.

TopBunk

27th Jan 2007, 08:58

I agree that it is improper to raise the subject on duty. If, however, it is raised by CC then that is different, athough it is better to defer discussions until off-duty downroute. Indeed, it would be almost unbelievable not to discuss the biggest single issue that the company faces.

At the same time, I would not expect my colleagues or them to expect me to issue platitudes but to voice opinions that are held. They may well be diametrically opposed to those held by my CC colleagues, and vice versa. So long as the debate is conducted in the right manner (ie not a screaming lecture, or refusing to listen to counter views), everyone has to accept that and deal with it in any free society.

My personal opinion is that there are personailty issues and the overall relationship between BA and BASSA will need honest arbitration after this is over to get away from the parent-child relationship that has existed for too long. BA undoubtedly are the deaf parent and BASSA the petulant child in their pram with lots of toys. What needs to be recognised is that both sides can gain more by working together than by continual bickering.

Also to be recognised is that the company have chosen the timing of this dispute (BASSA may like to think they have by holding a ballot, but ask yourself about the behavioural patterns beforehand that have forced the BASSA hand). The timings are all in BA's favour; low time of year, just after Xmas and no pay since before Xmas, cabin crew with big Xmas credit card bills to pay - Feb pay could be much reduced if strike happens.

No, as I see it, BA are running rings around BASSA on the publicity front and the CC have no public support at all. However, the T&G and BA have both to find a way out, and both sides have to come out able to proclaim some sort of victory. Who gains what we will have to wait and see.

As I said before, after this is over, a 3rd party will have to get BA and BASSA around the table after analysing the relationship and formulate a plan to move forward. For sure the relationship cannot remain as it is. After the 1996 near-strike by the pilots, People-in-Business, iirc, were brought in to do the same job for BALPA/BA. I know that there are still many issues between BALPA and BA, but I believe in the immediate aftermath of 1996 it served a useful purpose.

The difference is, of course, that BALPA have always proved to be open to reasoned debate and had a management who accepted that they were needed.

BASSA/T&G have not proved, imho, open to reasoned debate and as a result the BA management won't play ball. The big question therefore is, can they both accept the challenge of the 21st Century and cabn BASSA regenerate themselves from a 1970's style TU?

Ancient Observer

29th Jan 2007, 12:19

As a sector based, but not-BA person, I do hope that CC are reading post 206. Blackace is spot-on.

I do hope you resolve it before post 206 is brought in!

Qstar

29th Jan 2007, 15:52

Well done guys for standing your ground! Seems like a win win situation has been resolved!!! And as the union said Cabin Crew are getting the respect about what a great job you do and how much we are the Airline. Wish Qantas would do the same!!:ugh: :D :D

Stuntman Steve

29th Jan 2007, 18:18

It certainly is a win-win situation. A win for Willie Walsh and a win for Simon Talling-Smith. There is nothing on the table that wasn't there a month ago. A review of EG300 was already scheduled. The pension offer was the one the pilots negotiated. The pay rise has been self funded by removal of a purser and not backdating any rises to October 2006 as was due. Respect? This whole tawdry affair has made the crew the laughing stock of the airline. They have been marched up the hill by their reps, pilloried in the press as lazy, militant, greedy malingerers and at the end they've all been marched back down again with nothing new except a bus service at the weekend for commuters.

Some victory.

nurjio

29th Jan 2007, 18:21

hear, hear, Stuntyboy..:}

nurj

nurjio

29th Jan 2007, 18:25

...and I have just read Dick Deadeye (post 222). Absolutely spot on. :D

:} nurj

Flying_Sarah747

29th Jan 2007, 19:25

Where are you guys getting your information from? I've looked on the BASSA website, but they've not really posted anything much about what they have actually agreed to. I'm a little worried to say the least. When are they gonna tell us what has been agreed???

So let me get it straight, they still ARE going to take the purser off the upper deck???? Oh dear... :(

Olympus593

29th Jan 2007, 19:52

Sarah, as far as I am aware, The purser may not be removed from the upper-deck. Somewhere else. Maybe.

NOTHING is set in stone, BASSA needs the majority approval from its members to accept ANY changes to agreements.

Stuntman Steve

29th Jan 2007, 20:00

The Stasi have shut down the BASSA forum because people were questioning their sell out. You have got:

A review of EG300, but nothing too substantive.
Four new non-pensionsalbe pay points for LHR new contract, paid for by not backdating your pay deal and losing the 4th purser
The commuter bus back
A large supply of white flags (sorry made that one up)

All info available via ESS mail or the BASSA forum when they've had time to censor the criticism and spin the capitulation into a victory. Anyway, wasn't this supposed to be "Victory Day" on the BASSA forum?

PS You aren't getting a vote on it. Tony Woodley and Duncan Holley have made it clear this is the final offer. There's nothing left for you to vote on.

Olympus593

29th Jan 2007, 20:36

Anything that is on the table has to be agreed upon by the majority of BASSA members.

Bassa stated to BA (many months ago), that anything imposed would automatically result in a walk out by its members.

nurjio

29th Jan 2007, 21:21

..err, and who exactly is going to organise the walkout, after todays' 'struck deal'. :}

nurj

Get Smart

29th Jan 2007, 21:26

The Purser absolutely has gone from the upper deck as of Sept. 07. If anyone is in doubt, please check on ESS.

It seems that BA have gotten exactly what they want and the few minor changes will make no impact on BA's operation.

For any post 97 crew with high hopes of a big pay rise, forget it. It was never going to happen anyway. Personally, I think a basic of £18600 is fair.

I'm pleased this crisis didn't reach pitch fever as I do believe that blackace is also completely SPOT ON with this info. We, the crew would have lost anyway. I'm new contract myself, but I don't believe this strike would have solved any problems. Just being realistic I guess. :(

Flying_Sarah747

29th Jan 2007, 22:55

I hope I don't get shot down for this, but if they have put new incriments into the new entrant pay scale, upto £18600 that's not too bad, and I don't feel too bad about them taking the purser off the upper deck because to my knowledge, doesn't a junior purser start on £17000 basic anyway, therefore they may have made it so it'll take longer to get promoted, but at least our pay will still be the same or better than if we got purser anyway. Just wondering now though, what happens to all the pursers? Surely we're gonna have an excess of them??? Will they just work down a grade? Does that mean less trips for everbody therefore less money and more 24 hour availables?

I'm not totally sure about what I'm saying though, so I hope I've got the right end of the stick. Have to say, the way it stands at the moment I'm still more than slightly dissapointed about the purser thing. Glad we didn't have to strike though. Let's see what comes forth in the next few days!

YONGE

30th Jan 2007, 05:25

Does anyone know if LGW fleet are included in the new pay deal?

lgw30

30th Jan 2007, 09:46

yes lgw are getting the 4.6% pay rice but not the incriments :* what have bassa done for lgw not much looks like we have lost the breakfast extra 11p on the hourly pay

traveller5

30th Jan 2007, 10:48

Oh dear! BA crews have been shaf*** good and proper and have been sold off cheaply by their union - of which 2 reps resigned over what they see as a poor deal. More importantly well over 1,000 crew went sick yesterday (Monday) prior to 'the' announcement - that 96.1% YES vote was therefore all show.

Glamgirl

30th Jan 2007, 14:07

For those LHR crew who are worried about the purser removed on the 747 and the longer wait for promotion, here's a suggestion... why don't you pop down to SFLGW for a while (we are NSP after all now) and get your promotion that way? If it was that important to you, you could do it. :}

(Gasps of shock and horror and growling in the background) :E

The Blu Riband

30th Jan 2007, 16:22

Or leave altogether and get a proper job that pays more money.

Get Smart

30th Jan 2007, 22:12

Personally, I don't think BA crew have been 'sharfted'. I don't think we had a strong enough case to strike if the first place. But, whether you like it or not, BASSA enabled the BA crew to decide for themselves.
Sure, some issues needed addressing (EG300 for instance), but I would have to ask, in all honesty, what main crew member in the UK earns £18600 + generous allowances, earns 3 mbts after most trips, has an 'early report' day off before a 7.30am duty, stays in a hotel during standby AND gets paid £79 for that, gets proper bunk rest with special fluffy sleeping bags etc etc. In comparasion with other airlines, we don't do badly. It's true to say, I joined BA for quality of life. I have no complaints therefore, I don't feel 'sharfted', I don't feel like I'm the 'laughing stock' of the industry as some put it. I feel quite lucky.
Oh, and usually, it works out we only ever do 4 trips per month. :cool: I have plenty of friends in other airlines that work 3 times as hard with very little reward. Life outside of BA is a different story.

BA Boi

31st Jan 2007, 18:56

edited original post as thought better of it.

keeperboy

1st Feb 2007, 07:51

I am post '97 contract and really happy with the deal.

As get smart said, we already had among the best terms & conditions in the industry. I was happy with my lot as it was in terms of money. Not complaining that it's improved now though!

flybywire

1st Feb 2007, 11:18

Personally, I don't think BA crew have been 'sharfted'....

...Life outside of BA is a different story.
Actually that might be true for LHR. As we say in Italy, get that ham off your eyes people. Life inside BA is a different story for some of us.
LGW crew have been shafted biiiiig time. I urge everybody to spare a thought for us and support us in whatever action we might take now. Blood is boiling at LGW. We all work for BA plc and have been sold down the river once more.

The only positive thing is that finally the EG300 has to recognise what FCO states that is crew cannot fly with ear infections or sinusitis.

Volant77

1st Feb 2007, 11:33

Well said, flybywire!

I am LGW and I've had enough/ I earn on average £1000 a month.

I am quite confused though because at LGW it seems that most people couldn't care less about the strike. They are content with their conditions (the ones who have been there years) and didn't feel the strike concerned them. I have just come back from a trip and I was the only one who felt strongly about the srtike.

What's going on in this mad world?

flybywire

1st Feb 2007, 12:52

They are content with their conditions (the ones who have been there years) and didn't feel the strike concerned them

Of course, they are on totally different contracts!!!!

So much about that EC Art 141 that says that people who do equal jobs and paid by the same source MUST be paid the same money!!!
Disgust, disgust, disgust :yuk:

By the way, I was against a strike, as I thought that negotiations were the way forward. But the unions have really sold us for pennies so that they could achieve what they wanted most (LHR interests). So no increments for LGW, thank you very much, and yet we all work for BA Plc. I am on a post 1997 payscale and I am fuming.

I think it's time to elect brand new reps for both Bassa and Amicus at LGW. It's time we have some serious people who keep our interests at heart. I just cannot tolerate seeing them (ooooh one of them in particular!!!) at JH happily sipping coffee and not doing anything significantly constructive in times of crisis.

Glamgirl

1st Feb 2007, 12:55

Volant77, it's not that we don't care. Most of us just didn't feel that the issues brought to the table by bassa had anything to do with us. We've been sold down the river for so many years by bassa at lhr especially, and as much as it's frustrating, there isn't that much we can do about it. We're still fighting for breakfast (whatever bassa says, it's not decided yet).

What you'll have to realise is that we're trying to compete with lo-co's and other airlines at lgw. I don't believe that we should get paid less for that, but it's just the way it is (v annoying I know).

We've been fighting to enter the NSP for years, and we're finally in there, as such. Unions at lhr put as many spanners in the works for years, and now there are still restrictions in place. You know it says we can't do more than 12.5hrs? We can, after negotiations, but that was put into our MOA as lhr were worried we'd come in and "steal" spaces on their duties, an example being not enough wwlhr crew to operate NRT, but plenty from lgw. In theory we could do it, but it would have to be agreed by unions. I just wonder what happened to helping colleagues out, really.

I truly wish there wasn't such a divide. I wish we could all fight for the same issues. I wish this world was fair. However, I'd rather earn a bit less, get my promotion (oh, did that already), and most of all have FUN at lgw. It's all about finding out what's important to you. Basically, if we were to be paid as much as lhr, with the same restrictions as them (cat lounge etc), we wouldn't have a fleet at lgw. Simple as that. Unfortunate, yes.

The last 3 routes have started today, and hopefully we should all see some improvement in our rostas and pay soon. It will get better, Carmen will get better (she's terribly confused at the moment) and soon you'll be having the time of your life.