Dafur

[JagRigger]

And the next deployment is..............

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6178209.stm

Are they serious about a no fly zone, and are we expected to police it. I know the Jag's might like a swansong, but surely not! ;)

[Data-Lynx]

This theatre has a the shortest odds at the moment for Op Deny Christmas 06.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Surely this is just the ticket for our glorious leader, a nice 'safe' peacekeeping operation to take the attention away from Iraq and Afghanistan and all those troops who keep inconveniencing his PR people by dying.

[Kitbag]

No doubt the Jags would do a sterling job as always, might take them some time to deploy by surface though, I don't think there's any spare AT to move them out as befits an urgent operational deny Xmas 06. :ok:

[SirToppamHat]

Why would you police a no-fly zone with Jags?

My understanding is that the Sudanese (which I assume to be the aggressor at which this no-fly zone is aimed?) have in the past had Fulcrums, but there seems to be some doubt as to whether any are still flying due to attrition and spares problems. Also read somewhere that they have some old F-5Es and Chinese F-7s. Anyone have better (open-source) info?

Of course to police this area you'd need some sort of radar cover - now where did we put those flying pie-storage aircraft?

Op DENY-XMAS .... GO.

Good job we're just under-manned and not over-stretched, but at least the allowances will not be affected by recent changes to the system so no-one will lose out ...

STH

[ORAC]

FX-Based: (http://fx-based.********.com/2006/05/darfur-part-4.html) .....Based on Jane's information, the SAF has at least 16 operational MiG-29s. These aircraft are probably operated by Russian mercenaries. In addition, the SAF is known to operate at least two MiG-23 Flogger aircraft.

The MiG-29 squadron is located at Khartoun, while the two MiG-23s are based at Bur (Port) Sudan. The MiG-29 purchase represents an expenditure of approximately $400 million.

Reports indicate that Chinese jets sold to Sudan by China and Iran since the 1990s include over 40 Shenyang J-6 and J-7 jet fighters, and more recently some F-7 supersonic fighters, an improved version of the Russian MiG-21 Fishbed.

Based on Jane's, the Sudanese operate two modern air traffic control (ATC) radars that cover the southern approach to Darfur. Both of these Alenea-Marconi radars have a dual-use air defense capability along with civilian ATC.

According to Jane's, Sudan has 20 SA-2 Guideline SAM batteries, with associated Spoon Rest and Fan Song radars. Only three of the batteries are believed to be operational.......

[Pontius Navigator]

yup, my SinL is on unspecified but short NTM.






T W A N G



snap!

[airborne_artist]

I heard a while back that UK was thinking of offering some SH for a limited period. 33 Sqn?

[London Mil]

A Punch and Judy (sorry Bush & Blair) stance not quoting the War on Terror. :hmm: Get a move on Sudan.

[Gainesy]

Don't the French have a bunch of Mirages in Chad? They could do something useful for a change instead of making wazzing videos.

[greycoat]

Much of the air launched violence in Darfur is courtesy of the Hinds operating out of El Fashir and iron bombs pushed out of the back of fixed wing transports. The former thumbing their noses at the AU headquarters as they overflew despite the no-fly policy in force in Nov04. Not sure that the fast jet took any part in the atrocities in Darfur (although that may have changed in the past few months).

[Green Flash]

So, we know where they are based and we want them to stop flying. Jobs for the Boys?!!!!!!:} :ok:

[Wensleydale]

Why not send somebody called "Gordon" to Khartoum and send 2 Jags in for support. Don't bother with the relief column this time though -we'd be well rid!!

:E

[airborne_artist]

Wensley

That has raised a good laugh on what has otherwise been a trying day. VMT AA

[enginesuck]

Bet you they send Typhoon - got to be seen getting value for money......

[Green Flash]

Any thoughts on potential FOB's?

[Climebear]

I heard a while back that UK was thinking of offering some SH for a limited period. 33 Sqn?

Your informant was/informants were wrong

[pipl]

No, no, no!:mad:

[Mr Point]

Any thoughts on potential FOB's?
Nairobi perhaps? http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/2005/news_0506_09.html

[Pontius Navigator]

Mr Point, nice thought and a great job for the Flt Ops branch.

Start with a large, basic global political chart and red pen. Cross out all those countries neutral friendly to Opfor. Take an orange pen and cross out all those countries not friendly to us.

Take a ruler and blue pen and draw in tracks from MOD to potential FOB via staging posts. Measure distances. Use kilometers then no one will have the wrong type of miles.

Problem with Nairobi, from a bomb truck or interceptor POV is that it is 1000 miles the wrong side of the action.

Kampala is better but still the wrong side.

Egypt is about the same distance from the action but closer to home.

Now Chad is a bit far from home but closer to the action and the wrong side from the POV of Opfor. It will also have a decided advantage in more than adequate stocks of Vin Rouge :}

[Gouabafla]

According to the press in West Africa the French have a number of aircraft in both Chad and Central African Republic. In both cases they are being used against rebels who are staging out of South West Sudan.

If this is true, then the French would seem to be pretty well placed to police any no-fly zone in Darfur. M. Chirac has shown no sign of reluctance to get involved in African conflicts.

[MAN777]

Afriend of mine visited Khartoum last year and observed numerous Hind type helicopter movements and several AN12s(bombers ?) operating from the military area with no markings on, ironically every other movement was a UN relief aircraft !

[c17age]

We could always send prescot and his Jags then see how he chuckles at PMQs. UFB!!

[Avtur]

Finally a job for the E3-D fleet after their continuous flying for hours and achieving nothing in a non-operational exercise role environment? Can't wait to hear and see how the pimary Lincolnshire ISTAR Sqns will gloat at thier self-importance and mission critical inputs to locating and vectoring the Typhoon fleet onto some unsuspecting goat-hearder... assuming they are squawking of course.

Sell the lot; buy some more AT for those of us (the majority) that need it to do the operational stuff.

[Tombstone]

That's a little harsh AVTUR,

The E3D fleet act as good COMAO managers & they are excellent for CAS stacking etc.

Although they are an expensive and under used asset, that's not their fault & at the end of the day, I quite like the idea of having ACI talking to me in the background, might come in handy when, sorry if, Bush & Blair decide to push us into Iran with all those F4s etc floating around.

I do agree with your point about the Fighter Controllers loving themselves though, you'd think they fought Allied Force single handed when talking to some of them! Lets not associate those gimps with the WSOps onboard, I don't think they'd take it very well!;)

[WE Branch Fanatic]

But, what if the Sudanese Government decide to hit back at the West?

Attacking shipping in the Red Sea with aircraft (MiGs etc with sophisticated anti ship weaponry as well as iron bombs, or bombs pushed out the back of a transport) would cause real problems for the West. Sinking an oil tanker here or a container ship there would cause serious political and economic problems for the West, not to mention the threat to NATO/coalition naval forces operating in (or transiting through) the Red Sea? If Sudan is not above butchering their own indigenous black population, then it is not above blackmailing Western governments this way.

In late 2004 I mentioned this type of situation on the Sea Jet thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=98152). Try using the PPRuNe search function to look for "Red Sea Roulette".

[Confucius]

Any thoughts on potential FOB's?

It will be the :mad:tyist of hellholes imaginable, in all likelihood.

[Pontius Navigator]

But, what if the Sudanese Government decide to hit back at the West?
Attacking shipping in the Red Sea with aircraft (MiGs etc with sophisticated anti ship weaponry as well as iron bombs, or bombs pushed out the back of a transport) would cause real problems for the West.

Case for a Harrier Carrier.




ooops, sorry, I'll get me 'at

[Gainesy]

Operation Mahdi Shar?



Hold the cab please Pontious...

[Avtur]

Harsh; Yes, but with good reason:

"The E3D fleet act as good COMAO managers & they are excellent for CAS stacking etc"

Sounds like good exercise speak to me as not seen it operationally... Apart from defending us from a Viking II attack they are a nil requirement in the current and future ops given that any mushroom role is usually filled by an especially useless NATO or US contingent.

"talking to me in the background" ...this hardly sounds like an operationally efficient asset, but does remind me of their role in in Allied Force.... The one when I was almost taken out by an F16 and JSTARS within 30 mins due to "screen clutter".

I do agree with your ground trade supporting aircrew (ie fighter controller) v WSOp comment though.

Sorry about my negativity, but I struggle to see their relevance given the current op tempo and their non-op chest expanding. Seasons greetings (even to you shrooms).

[Wensleydale]

Avtur..

Having over 200 operational missions under my belt (not as a FC though) I wonder how many near misses you would have had without any AWACS cover... Procedural separation is fine until every USN/USAF who arrives in theatre flies without reading spins (happened every time a new USN task group entered the adriatic - F14s off the deck straight up to F200 without looking). The problem is that most JJs are spoiled during small trg exercises - on Ops one cannot give full attention to each and every aircraft on console (usually anything up to 200 on ops not including the passing airliners - I remember a 100 page plus ATO) we don't have enough consoles on board. Especially true during Telic, although we were fairly safe being so far ahead of the F3 back-stop cap. Unfortunately, some-one in NATO has said that E-3s cannot deploy without a DAS, (duty of care and all that) and so until that nice man in the treasury pays for one.... you will get the other sort.

I will admit that ISTAR needs another operation. Having been on constant ops without a break from a few of months after entrering service (1992) to the end of Telic (2003), we need to be back leading where we belong. I miss flying 900 hours a year.

[pzu]

Excuse the Intrusion, but note my 'nome de plume' PZU = Port Sudan


Was based at Oil Terminal by Port Sudan 2001-2004 just 5K from PZU airfield the new one built by Osama bin Laden c 1998/99 - 25K south of Port Sudan

Sudan Air Force presence was occaisional and limited to 2/3 Shenyang F6's or F7's parked on apron with a tractor and an APU plus lying on the grade what appeared to be half a dozen 'home made' bombs of approx 500kg

The permanent presence at PZU was a battery of 6/8 twin barrelled 'bofors looking' presumably Chinese 37mm AA cannon in a parade gound battery formation plus at the NE corner of the perimeter a long defunct/scorched wreck of a Mig 19/21 type

Just to the North outside the perimeter there was what a Dutch ex SF type described as the remains of a SA2 battery, further North adjacent the oil refinery & power station was another AA battery in similar condition to that at the airfield

Further North again right on the edge of Port Sudan town lies the old PZU airfield now purely military, throughout my time there this was occupied by a DC7C abandoned in '70's/80's by someone involved in Aid flights plus between 3 & 5 piston Trainers Nanchang C6? - during my time only saw them airborne about 10 times and max 2 at once

But since 2003 Sudan has been exporting in excess of 250000 bbls/day and that buys a lot of kit

PZU - Out of Africa

[escapee]

E3D is not the only ISTAR platform. I know some of the others will get a little upset if you lump them in with the mushroom farmers.:{

[WizzopWannabe]

UN no fly zone? thought they never worked?
How bout NATO no fly zone, that should do it!
http://www.ippr.org.uk/pressreleases/?id=2476