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CherokeeDriver
13th Dec 2006, 08:59
Can't believe this hasn't been started as a thread. wtf is going on there? A human life is a human life, regardless of profession.:eek:

tony draper
13th Dec 2006, 09:06
The news media are over the moon with it, and as per usual the Police seem to be spending inordinate amounts of time pandering to the demands of the news channels rather than feeling collars.
Wonder how long it will be before the news channels start hiring their own detectives and start running parallel investigations

MyData
13th Dec 2006, 09:10
start hiring their own detectives and start running parallel investigations

Looks like they are already doing so with the number of ex-detectives and criminologists popping up everywhere to give their 2c.

What is disconcerting is that the Police have had a raised profile for the past few weeks and this killer has gone in and taken more victims from under their noses.

BigEndBob
13th Dec 2006, 09:15
What is so sad is how desperate some of these girls are to work.

My mother lived in an area frequented by prostitutes.
I would see them in the pouring rain stood by the side of the road getting soaked waiting for clients. Sad 'profession".

Wyler
13th Dec 2006, 09:17
I really hate the BBC at times like this. Yesterday they were trying to lambast the Chief of Police because he could not guarantee the safety of lone females on the street staright away. Also, the special bulletins popping up every hour or so. I too am sick of 'Armchair' experts clogging up the airwaves with their drivel.
The papers this morning are full of it.

Everyone also assumes this is a man doing the deed. Not necessarily.


The sooner this profession is recognised, legalised, cleaned up and properly run, the better.

ORAC
13th Dec 2006, 09:26
The sooner this profession is recognised, legalised, cleaned up and properly run, the better. The media you mean? :suspect:

lexxity
13th Dec 2006, 09:27
The sooner this profession is recognised, legalised, cleaned up and properly run, the better.

I couldn't agree more. Who grows up wanting to be a prostitute? My heart goes out to the women who have been murdered and to those on the game. I know we'll have the usual "if they weren't drug addicts, yadda, yadda", but what kind of lives have these girls had to lead them to where they are now?

Sad, very sad.

A report on Sky news is about one of the vicitims giving an interview saying she had to go out and work because she needed the money.

W.R.A.I.T.H
13th Dec 2006, 09:27
I also wasn't amused when in the bbc.co.uk article the police boss in the area asked the murderer to come forward, advising him that he (not likely she) has a problem and they can "deal it out". What's next, a money reward on offer for self-reporting, pretty please or appeal on his civil honesty?

Just make sure you don't infringe upon his rights!

Krystal n chips
13th Dec 2006, 09:42
What is disconcerting is that the Police have had a raised profile for the past few weeks and this killer has gone in and taken more victims from under their noses.

To be fair to the Police and Suffolk in particular, unless they have specific intelligence as to whom this person is / could be, what else can they do at present?. As the CC said last night, this is unprecedented and I would suggest murders on this scale would stretch the Met, GMP etc let alone a rural force. Then there is the very real possibility ( a mate of mine is a criminal pyschologist hence the comment I make in this respect ) that, despite the enormity of the crimes, the murderer may well have a very high llevel of intellectual development----so "outwitting" the Police would be part of the modus operadi anyway. Who knows at this stage. Just hope he / she is caught asap before other lives are lost. Murder is murder after all and it really doesn't matter a damn what the victims occupation was.

MyData
13th Dec 2006, 09:51
Krystal

I'm in no way having a dig at the Suffolk police in my comment. What I think is disconcerting is that we have someone here who has so much bravado that he (and I think it will be a male) thinks nothing of going back to a highly policed area for more victims.

tony draper
13th Dec 2006, 10:06
This morning the news media are pushing the message that the murderer,whoever or whatever he is as we have no information whatsoever on him/her/it is taunting the police! how the **** to they come to that fecking conclusion,as per they are turning it into a circus.
:confused:

Krystal n chips
13th Dec 2006, 10:10
My Data,
I appreciate that, hence my comment about the persons intelligence. As my mate said, "playing games" with the Police could simply be one of many complex elements that make up this persons overall traits.

XXTSGR
13th Dec 2006, 10:42
I'm just waiting for some idiot in the media to over-egg this person's ego by giving them some stupid nickname like "The Ipswich Tiger" or "The Fenlands Ripper" or somesuch, thus making them feel ever more important.

GeneralMelchet
13th Dec 2006, 10:52
Very interesting watching the news last night. Each channel had wheeled out its own pet psycologist to give their impression of who could have done this. Funnily enough they were not all the same.
Have you noticed that after a storm of critisisim the victims ( God rest their souls) are now be refered as people (mums, daughters, women) rather than simply prostitutes. The first BBC radio reports must have used the word prostitute 20 times in the one report.
One point of semantics. Isn't this guy a spree killer rather than a serial killer. i.e. he has started a rapid killing spree rather than a protracted series of killings.
After a watching a series of CSI and Criminal minds I feel qualified to make my own psycological profile.
This chap will be white, aged 25 to 55,will have a criminal record for a sexual offence, will have attacked before but maybe not killed, will have had a recent stressful event to trigger the spree , is not a user of street girls 'cos he cant get it up (spot the no sexual assault bit in the reports),drives a white van and will keep going until caught.

bjcc
13th Dec 2006, 11:00
XXTSGR

The expression Suffolk Stranglar seems to be the latest.

To be fair to Suffolk Police, the first body was only found 10 days ago, and the other women went missing shortly afterwards, but that didn't become apparent till this weekend.

Suffolk is a small force, about 1500 officers, that's all in, and includes management, those employed on things like custody officers, comms, etc, spread whats left over a 24 hour period, and obviously there are not many for any given area.

The issue of prostitution isn't going to go away, it's about time it was legalised and regulated.

Mr Lexx
13th Dec 2006, 11:00
I'm just waiting for some idiot in the media to over-egg this person's ego by giving them some stupid nickname like "The Ipswich Tiger" or "The Fenlands Ripper" or somesuch, thus making them feel ever more important.

XXTSGR

You only had to wait 17 minutes :rolleyes:

The Ipswich Ripper (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/13122006/344/massive-hunt-ipswich-ripper.html)

Gainesy
13th Dec 2006, 11:04
I was slightly amused by a live view of Ipswich on Sky news last night showing "the deserted streets of a town in terror" or some such balls in the commentary.

Ipswich is normally deserted after 7pm anyway.

G-CPTN
13th Dec 2006, 11:10
What evidence is there for 'ripping'?

tony draper
13th Dec 2006, 11:59
Not I Mr Chloride, I watch the main news in the morning and the main news in the evening we have little choice I refuse to watch the 24 hour news cartoons,sadly even the reporting on the main news is dumbed down to the point of imbicility now.
:cool:

VFE
13th Dec 2006, 12:05
I agree that the media seems to be loving every minute of this drama. This morning we were treated to a 'special' broadcast. They're just pandering to the innocent minds of the seriel killer novel reading Joe Public! Let us not make any mistakes here - the TV news teams are out for viewing figures. I bet news chiefs cannot wait for the next murder to come along. They repeatedly chew the fat like some pre-match studio debate amongst 'professionals'.... and that's just BBC1 and ITV - lawd knows what the Sky news channels are like at the moment - I haven't had the inclination to check them out for fear of nausia.

VFE.

Polikarpov
13th Dec 2006, 12:06
As someone who has lived in that area for many years of his life, I've found much of the coverage astonishing. The main irritant being the patronising view of the Suffolk constabulary (that is, after the media managed to find Ipswich on the map).

The bodies of the poor victims are barely cold and there's already extensive speculation on whether the local police are "up to the job" (presumably because they're not the Met).

This despite the fact that all neighboring forces have offered unconditional support and resources, should the Suffolk plod deem it necessary. There’s even been some Government wonks noting sagely that they should have merged the East Anglian forces after all. A little premature for that, don't you think, you t***s?

In the media handbook of all things stereotypical, I assume the entry under "Suffolk police" notes that this quaint, sleepy backwater employs two bobbies on bicycles and relies on dotty old ladies for most of it's sleuthing capability.

Grr.

flugholm
13th Dec 2006, 12:46
Well, media bashing... here's more:

A few minutes ago in the news program on German Pro7 TV, with the background of prostitutes standing around in streets:

"Despite the killings, the majority of Suffolk women continue in their profession unchanged."




What?!?!?

Ah, journalists and words... If everybody treated their tools of trade like many of them do...

phnuff
13th Dec 2006, 13:14
This morning, radio 5 had an interview with the editor of the local paper (east Anglian Times). He was on about the fact that he was being interviewed by people from all over the world and that in the last few days, they have been running 20 page spreads on the murders. Now, exactly how can a number of 20 page spreads be justified and what can they put in them? Interviews with other clients of the dead women or someone who went to school with someone who once bought a dog from the bother of a mate of a dead girl. At times like this, the media feeding frenzy is utterly hideous and something that we should all be ashamed of.

frostbite
13th Dec 2006, 13:26
Don't hold your breath for a result.

Some years ago, a young girl (not a prostitute) was murdered on their patch, and I happened to know that a man with 'form' was in the area at the time of her death.

I passed this information to the (clueless & disinterested sounding) female on their 'Crimestoppers' hotline.

He was never even questioned, and since he is still in the general area, could even be involved now.

forget
13th Dec 2006, 13:35
Don't hold your breath for a result.
Some years ago, a young girl (not a prostitute) was murdered on their patch, and I happened to know that a man with 'form' was in the area at the time of her death.
I passed this information to the (clueless & disinterested sounding) female on their 'Crimestoppers' hotline.
He was never even questioned, and since he is still in the general area, could even be involved now.

Have you called the police again? I'd have thought that's a must.

panda-k-bear
13th Dec 2006, 14:00
So this thread is about slating the police and the media is it? How interesting.

Me - well I'd rather express my disgust at the stomach turning incidents that have taken place over the last few weeks. I couldn't give a damn if they were prostitutes or lorry drivers or pilots. They're human beings, for goodness sakes. Irrespective of how they ended up on the game (no doubt some tragedy - it's not a profession most would select, I suspect) these poor girls have been taken to their deaths. Yes, prostitutes have feelings, too.

I hope that they can just rest in peace and they catch the evil, twisted SOB who did this to them.

And I agree, fully, with the sentiment that it's time to legalise and regulate prostitution so that they don't have to walk the streets in this way any longer. These girls are ususally at the lowest, most desperate point in their lives. They need protection, not vilification.

Whirlygig
13th Dec 2006, 14:05
Thank you Panda for bringing this thread back to its origin. It may be easy for those who are far removed from the area to find the Suffolk Police and population amusing and to be appalled at the media frenzy but please, which is the bigger crime?

Cheers

Whirls

Wedge
13th Dec 2006, 14:28
The news media are over the moon with it

Just for once, I totally agree with Draper.

The media love a story like this. It will keep them in cocaine and scotch until well into next year.

It's all rather unedifying, hearing the News of the Screws vomit-inducing statements about putting up the £250K reward because 'they wanted to do something, whatever they could to help'. Bollocks. They wanted to do something alright, sell as many papers as possible on the backs of five poor young murdered women, who happened to be prostitutes. They'll make their £250K back with interest. Win-win for them.

It's a terrific 'story' for them. But for the families it's far from a fiction.

That said, we all like a good murder mystery don't we? I would be lying, and so would everyone watching, if I claimed I watched this purely out of a sense of concern for the victims.

btw - totally agree about legalising it too - time to take a mature appraoch to 'the oldest job in the world', legalise and regulate it, which would make it safer for all the women involved.

panda-k-bear
13th Dec 2006, 14:39
Oh good grief. We're back to hammering the media again are we? :rolleyes:

Nobody seems to give a damn for these 5 poor girls.

Sad.

Utterly sad.

bjcc
13th Dec 2006, 14:52
The press wouldn't print it if it didn't sell....Sadly the responsibility is all round, press and public.

The press have a role to play, reporting this sort of thing can have a positive effect in terms of jogging memory of those that may not live in the areas concerned, but did pass through at a time when they could have seen something that seemed innoculous at the time. But sadly they do have a habit of turning things into a 3 ring circus.

To the Police it doesn't matter what the occupation of the victims is, it gets investigated the same way.

I've nicked a number of prostitutes, and the reasons they go on the game are verried, so they told me at the time. For some it's an easy way of making cash, yes, others do it to support drug habits. But they are certainly not all stupid, vunarable or forced into it.

VFE
13th Dec 2006, 15:00
Not at all Panda - I have yet to hear anyone disrespect those poor girls or make light of the way in which their sad lives ended up. The lack of respect and insult to their dignities appears to be coming from the media seeking to sensationalise the events by regurgitating 'the sickening facts' etc... Yes, it needs to remain in the spotlight for reasons bjcc mentioned but it's all a touch insensitive from where I sit.

The BBC One O Clock news presenter asked the chief inspector leading the enquiry:

"So, have you got any theories on who the attacker might be?"

"No" he replied....

"We are however following a number of leads".

"Okay, so what other theories do you have chief inspector?".

I mean for gods sake! Talk about pushing for news that ain't there. How many times in one report did they mention the 2000 calls from the public? Six times was it? Oh, not forgetting the "new footage" of the forensic officers examining the murder scene.

We are all appalled Panda me old mate, but listening to the media rehashing the same news over and over "with the latest developments" thrown in for good measure, is seriously begining to grate on my nerves. Some respect for the dead might be better displayed with less sensationalism from the media. This is not a convoluted point we seek to make here.

VFE.

Polikarpov
13th Dec 2006, 15:01
Nobody seems to give a damn for these 5 poor girls.

What on earth leads you to that conclusion?

Are feeling sorrow for the victims and passing comment on any other aspect of the reporting of this crime mutually exclusive?

:confused:

panda-k-bear
13th Dec 2006, 16:21
The reason, Polikarpov, is because most people here seem to see this as a way to have a crack at the media or the police - have themselves a nice little whinge about how awful the media is from the comfort of their office- or armchair.

What I'm getting at is, and I think Whirlygig got my point, I don't think this thread was created as the opportunity for us all to have a whinge.

bjcc I take your point that not all girls do this for the same reasons. But consider the case of one of the latest discoveries. She was interviewed last week, after the case was already running with the murder of at least 1 of the girls at that stage, on television. When asked why she was still working the streets in the knowledge that there was a murderer (possibly it was thought at that stage that it was a double murder) on the loose targetting prostitutes, she replied that she needed the money (in her case to feed her drug habit). Most reasonable people would surmise that she wasn't lying as you wouldn't put yourself at that sort of risk for nothing. She's now lying dead and naked in a field. It's my personal opinion that these 5 girls actually are all victims but maybe I'm naive.

I reiterate - legalise it and regulate it. Don't pretend that you're going to police prostitution out of existence. Now that is naive.

Give the girls a chance.... (and think of all the tax Fat Gordon would get)

bjcc
13th Dec 2006, 16:43
panda-k-bear

I don't recall seeing any of those who have been murdered interviewed on TV, so I'll take your word for what she apparently said. I need money, thats why I go to work, the same as all of us. I am not suggesting that prostitutes do it for fun, well, some may, but not your street walking variety. What I am saying is that while there are those that do it out of desperation, or to feed drug habits, there are those that do it because it's a job, and bring in a 'wage'. Just like many in conventional jobs, some do it because they want to, some for other reasons.

Of course all 5 of them are victims, they have been murdered, thier occupation doesn't alter that.

I agree, legalise it, as I said previously, and no police officer is going to pretend that you can police prostitution away.

On the subject of tax, I understand that there was a tom a few years ago who tried to pay tax on her earnings, but that was rejected by HM Tax people, on the grounds you couldn't pay tax on illegal earnings?????????!!!!!!!

panda-k-bear
13th Dec 2006, 17:03
bjcc - I agree with everything you say - I wasn't having a crack at you. Whilst we may not see eye to eye on traffic matters, I have nothing but respect for the poor buggers who have to pick up the pieces in these awful situations - and put all the pieces together to find the twisted (ahem, expletive deleted) who did it.

As an aside, where does the term "tom" come from? Never have understood that... maybe you could enlighten me?

CherokeeDriver
13th Dec 2006, 17:03
Can I just say, as the thread starter, I didn't intend this to be a media or police bashing thread. If people unmount from thier high horse / soap box and stop to think what is really happening here it is very frightening indeed.

1. There appear to be 5 'linked' murders in a very short time scale in a very localised area. This has never been seen before, in a large city or in a small province.

The media will always enlarge, and possibly distort, any story of interest. Heaven knows we all see some of the reporting that comes out regarding aviation related news - a topic we all know quite a lot about. We know how inaccurate the media can be, and how sensational stories are published when in reality there was little of interest to the informed reader / listener etc.

May I reitterate my origional point - there are 5 young ladies who have lost thier lives in thier line of work. OK - statistics show that that, on average about 6 prostitutes get murdered in a year, but 5 over a very short space of time - that's what I wanted to discuss. OUR attitude to the reality of the situation, not how the press "big it up" or how useless the local bobbies are. I think we all know the local bobbies are dealing with a situation that has never been encountered before - they are human too, they have feelings, families and professional integrity. Let them get on with the job - I have a feeling they have their work cut out to get to the bottom of this case.

tilewood
13th Dec 2006, 17:04
panda-k-bear

On the subject of tax, I understand that there was a tom a few years ago who tried to pay tax on her earnings, but that was rejected by HM Tax people, on the grounds you couldn't pay tax on illegal earnings?????????!!!!!!!

Give Gordon Brown time, he has taxed everything else!!

And to add my comments to the many others. Prostitution should be legalised. The law will never stop it, so why not bring it out into the open.
Provide clean, secure premises, regular health checks for the girls, and
immediately much of the criminal element would be removed.

It is the hypocracy within our society that has contributed to the deaths
of these prostitutes, driving them into an underworld where they can only
ply their trade in a furtive manner to furtive clients.

Perhaps it says more about us than it does about them. :hmm:

forget
13th Dec 2006, 17:48
Don't hold your breath for a result.
Some years ago, a young girl (not a prostitute) was murdered on their patch, and I happened to know that a man with 'form' was in the area at the time of her death.
I passed this information to the (clueless & disinterested sounding) female on their 'Crimestoppers' hotline.
He was never even questioned, and since he is still in the general area, could even be involved now.

frostbite. The mother of the girl murdered 14 years ago has just been interviewed on TV. She's 'hoping' for a connection so as to close the file - if/when they catch the killers(s).

Sorry to keep on at you but I hope you've already passed on to the police what you know.

Whirlygig
13th Dec 2006, 17:58
bjcc, nearly but not quite. The "tom" in question (a delightful term meaning prostitute) was Lindi St Clair AKA Miss Whiplash who tried to avoid paying tax as the Inland Revenue, and hence the State, would be living off immoral earnings. She lost. She then tried to set up a Ltd Company and was refused but it was later granted.

The shock of the murders is quite unprecedented in this area and I would suspect that much of the media coverage is a manifestation of this shcok.

Cheers

Whirls

bjcc
13th Dec 2006, 18:24
panda-k-bear

Thanks for clarifying.

Tom? I'm sorry, I really don't know where it came from, it's just one of those expressions used by Police, certainly in London, and I presume elsewhere. As Whirlygig rightly says, it means a prostitute.

Having thought about what I said regarding legalising prostitution, it is actually not an offence to be one. The offences surround soliciting for prostitution, living off imoral earnings and running brothels. So while being one is perfectly legal, just about any form of operating as one isn't.

I can see difficulties with having legalised brothels, if only in terms of regulating them, and keeping the pimps & protection gangs out. Any plan would have to be carefully put together (which counts goverment involvement out!) to ensure that it didn't just create more problems.

lexxity
13th Dec 2006, 18:58
Could we not follow the Dutch's lead?

This might help answer the where does Tom come from?

Tom" meaning a prostitute is a slang term used in London UK
Another theory revolves round "tom" being an abbreviation of "tomboy", which used to carry a pejorative meaning of a bold or immodest woman, in contrast to today's sense of simply "boyish or boisterous girl".

Here are some relevant entries in Slang and Euphamism, A Dictionary, by Richard A. Spears, Signet Books, 1991:

Tom: a prostitute
Tomato: a prostitute (U.S. underworld, early 1900s)
Tomboy: a rude and sexually uncontrolled girl; a strumpet (Primarily British, 1500s - 1800s)
Tomrig: a girl or woman, especially one who is sexually loose (colloquial, early 1700s - 1900s)
Tom Tart: a sexually loose woman. Rhyming slang for "tart"

G-CPTN
13th Dec 2006, 19:28
Some have claimed that "tom" meaning a prostitute derives from "Thomas More" equalling "whore".

tony draper
13th Dec 2006, 19:37
Tom is also a underworld euphamism for Jewelry derived from rhyming slang,ie Tom Foolery Jewelry,shortened as is the custom to just Tom.
:cool:

Miserlou
14th Dec 2006, 00:08
Whereas I may sympathize with the prostitutes' families for the loss of life, how does it compare with the hundreds who die everyday from, for example, hunger?

What did irritate me was that the BBC, after holding a debate with some woman, began calling the victims 'sex industry workers' (as the woman wanted) rather than the more specific, and frankly more accurate and useful, 'prostitutes'.

The news item, when refering to prostitutes, clearly identifies the people who are at risk.

The fact that the police rep. refered to the local prostitutes as 'the girls', even though they are all legally adults was obviously not in any way condescending to her.

bjcc
14th Dec 2006, 00:20
Miserlou

The term 'sex industry workers' is, I guess, an attempt by groups like the English Collective of Prostitutes, to make their trade sound less sordid.

I agree, the use of that term is a waste of words, and misleading, sex industry workers could include the ladies who work for Anne Summers, I don't think they are at risk, unless they are selling things other than those that go buzz.

panda-k-bear
14th Dec 2006, 08:56
Miserlou, I'd say it was very different. Having your life extinguished at the whim of a single person - murder at the hands of a single maniac - is a bit different. Perhaps no less tragic. But very, very different.

Sorry but I just can't seem to raise the same distate for prostitution that some here demonstrate. Is it a respectable "job" inthe U.K.? Well, no it isn't. But why is that? Is it because it is outlawed? (bjcc - it is true to say that the act of prostitution is not illegal in and of itself. It has, however, been effectively outlawed by other legislation, though...). I rather think that it is.

Again, if it (the "job") were legalised then it would clean up its act and the perception would change. You only have to look towards the Netherlands, Germany, Australia etc. to see that.

The added bonus is that the safety of the girls improves as well...

Widger
14th Dec 2006, 09:10
There seems to be much comment on here that if Prostitution were legalised then the problem would go away. This is a very naive view. Almost without exception so far, all of those murdered have been heroin or crack cocaine addicts. They are Prostitutes, to pay for their drug habit. The drugs are supplied by criminals. Legalisation of prostitution will not get to the root of the problem in that this country is awash with drugs, which fuel a huge amount of crime and violence. Have any of you seen the series with Monty Don? To root out the problem, we need to have a much better co-ordinated attack on dealers, mcuh improve re-habilitation schemes to get addicts off their habit, improved border controls and a greater emphasis on the family unit. I know I am beginning to sound like the editor of the Daily Mail and I apologise but, I have a very real fear that this country is slipping into the abyss and some of these overpaid idiots in government need to do something out it.

My condolences and thought are with the families of those murdered. I cannot imagine how they must feel. I have two young daughters myself and am full of apprehension about their future in this country.

panda-k-bear
14th Dec 2006, 12:36
Widger, I don't think anyone would believe that legalisation would instantaneously solve the problem. However, it would go some way towards stabilising it. At least they would be able to operate either in a safer environment (I suppose I mean a brothel) or with a certain amount of protection by the police (if they were going about legal business then they would be able to expect that, don't you think?) As it is, the "blind eye" situation that we have today clearly isn't working.

Let's face it, if they weren't forced to get into a car straight off of the street, then they wouldn't be as vulnerable to murder, would they?

Equally, on the punters side of the fence, regular check-ups (as Nevada, for example) might ensure less risk of STDs.

The drugs part surely is a second phase?

First and most important job is to stop this slaughter, don't you agree?

Tackling the root cause has to be a second step.

XXTSGR
14th Dec 2006, 15:08
It's not often I agree with panda, but on this issue I'm with him 100%.

Prostitution needs legalising. Keep the women safe, possibly license them, make sure they get regular medical check-ups, tax them, have brothels provide parking space to keep kerb-crawlers off the streets, tax their income, get the nuisance away from the so-called "respectable" people's areas, stop them taking up court time with stupid prosecutions for soliciting, get drug habits under some sort of control and SAVE THEIR LIVES.

VFE
14th Dec 2006, 15:44
Another intelligent posting there Kalium... :rolleyes:

I am all for legalising prostitution too. Not only could we then tax it and regulate it accordingly, but lives would be saved - not just the prostitutes themselves. With regulation would come proper regular screening for STI's which would benefit the consumer and prostitute ergo the alarming rise of STI statistics amongst the population.

VFE.

bjcc
14th Dec 2006, 17:12
Kalium Chloride

I don't think that this 'crime' is worth keeping 'illegal'.

As things stand, stamping out prostitution, in terms of the street variety, is impossible without massive amounts of Police time. Is that effort worth it considering the offence? I would say no, it's not. There are far more important things Police could and should be doing.

If it is possible (and I would think there would be very serious problems to overcome) then that effort is no longer required. What regulation that would be needed, should be fundable through the prostitution it self.

That said, there are other things to consider. A woman that failed a medical would be effectively made unemployable in a 'legal' brothel, and would be forced back to the streets, so we are back to square one. Then there are the pimps to consider, they make thier money through thier girls, and legal brothels would not stop them recruiting and making thier money (probably by undercutting the legal product).

My opinion is that it should be legalised, but I can also see that it may not be as successful as some think.

TBirdFrank
14th Dec 2006, 18:06
The example I am about to describe may or may not demonstrate a generalisation, but a young lady hereabouts was recently detained for price sticker swapping in B & Q

The constabulary investigated her possessions amongst which was her notebook, which revealed her sideline - approx 1m worth of earnings from the "profession"

These were both on her own part and from girls working for her in premises which she operated so whilst she was a "madame" she was also a "working girl" too.

The proceeds had been invested into properties - several houses which she let out. She was accordingly ordered to pay some 300,000 in Income Tax from her previously undeclared earnings.

What habit was she supporting? - an addiction to obtaining money apparently, judging from her DIY activities at B & Q.

Not all women in the sex trade are doing it out of desperation, or passing money back to a despicable pimp.

No matter what the handwringing as this unspeakable horror emerges, this trade has always existed, and always will - best to work with it to try to ensure safety, standards, supervision, and its removal from residential areas.

Hopefully this would even further marginalise those who will never work within any framework, rather than there being a semi hidden layer of activity as at present.

Lets hope he has made some mistake already that will take him out of circulation before anyone else is killed

Choxolate
16th Dec 2006, 15:51
Panda and XXX are all for legalising prostitution on the grounds that the prostitutes would be safer - some logic in that, however would it have gone anywhere to preventing THIS particular crime?

We do not know the motives of the murderer, making "street girls" safer may just have made him pick another easily accessible group to attack. he may have a major downer on prostitutes alone - so he follows them from their "safe" place of work and then kills them.

From what I have gleaned from the press the young women who were killed seemed to have been making their living on the streets because of drug addiction. At least a couple of them (if not all) appear to have been raised by good loving parents in secure homes but ended up "on the game" after getting involved in drugs.

My solution? execute drug dealers and murderers. If it doesn't deter others it sure as heck stops them doing it again.

OK XXX et al can now give us the mantra of some executed people being innocent and "better that 10 guilty men go free than one innocent man is hanged", as a society I think that is a chance we should take - and yes I would pull the handle.

G-CPTN
16th Dec 2006, 16:01
Prostitution (apart from CHILD prostitution) is not a crime. It is perfectly legal to accept cash for sex.
The illegality arises in the soliciting, pimping and then 'avoiding tax'. It is also illegal to provide premises for the activities of 'several' prostitutes (which is deemed to be a brothel). It is also an offence to 'live off immoral earnings' (which is the catchall that ensnares pimps). I also believe that (at least in certain areas) that 'kerb-crawling' in pursuit of a prostitute is deemed to be an offence.

Of course it is also illegal to kill (or seriously harm) another human.

Funny old world.

G-CPTN
18th Dec 2006, 09:43
ARREST!
36/37 year old from Trimley, Felixstowe @7.20 this morning.
Well done, Suffolk Police. Hope that they've got the [email protected]@rd!


http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1244453,00.html?f=dta
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6189409.stm

tony draper
18th Dec 2006, 09:51
Heard what has to be the crassest quote of the year from the sky news studio lady yesterday.
"Digital viewers can press red and join our Ipswich murder trail"
Presumably with a phone in contest.
:uhoh:

scruggs
18th Dec 2006, 10:13
LOL Tony!

Yep - the media have done a great job of whipping up fear around the UK.

My favourite was when Sky News went straight to Bradford and started talking to prostitutes up there about the Yorkshire Ripper. Talk about making a bad situation worse!

Then the best line from one of the Bradford prostitutes during a Sky News interview - "Oh god, Ipswich is only down the road"

G-CPTN
18th Dec 2006, 11:18
Latest from the media:-

(The Police have stated that they will NOT be issuing any further bulletins, as the case is 'sub judici, however, local gossip and ferreting by the reporters has uncovered the address and identity of the suspect.)
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1244453,00.html
http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/news/tm_headline=ripper-hunt%2D-the-suspect%26method=full%26objectid=18275623%26siteid=62484-name_page.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6189409.stm

tony draper
18th Dec 2006, 11:30
Indeed the fearless Ipswich war correspondent(he wasn't wearing a flack Jacket or any camo gear) just stated
"we shall have to be carefull what we say from now on we do not want to prejudice any trial".
It wont stop the buggas sending out a thousand of their miked up ferrets to hunt down all the chaps relatives/exe milkman/girlfriends/someone who sold him a dog in 1987/ anybody who knew his grandad ect.
:cool:

scruggs
18th Dec 2006, 11:33
What happened to "The fat man in the BMW"? :confused:

lexxity
18th Dec 2006, 12:28
Poor old Tescos, apparentely he works for them and that is being shouted about now. := :=

Ozzy
18th Dec 2006, 13:48
And here's the dude's MySpace page (http://www.myspace.com/85784962). The scary thing? He's got 8 friends.

Ozzy

G-CPTN
18th Dec 2006, 15:32
This case is developing in a MOST unusual fashion!
BBC Radio have an interview with 'the suspect' which was apparently given as 'background' and 'not for broadcast', however, the powers-that-are at the Beeb have decided that his subsequent arrest has significantly changed the circumstances under which that undertaking was given, and now see fit to release significant extracts of the interview to air. Now I would have thought that such 'evidence' would prejudice the suspect's right to a fair trial, and might significantly compromise the case(s) against him. The Sunday Mirror's article was published prior to the arrest, and they can legitimately claim exemption, but now that the case is sub judice I'd have thought that such behaviour as that being indulged in by the Beeb was a definite no-no.

What on EARTH are the Beeb playing at?
If the guy is innocent then they have compromised their agreement with said suspect, and if he is guilty . . . ?

NOW the Beeb is to run an item on BBC Radio Five Live Drive programme (starting at 16.00 GMT on medium wave 909 and 693 AND on the Internet http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/index.shtml?logo 'Listen live') on how the Police are alleged to have mis-managed the media during this case . . .

Krystal n chips
18th Dec 2006, 16:38
I could well be wrong----but---something tells me all is "not quite right " here re this arrest--and the person concerned. That said, and probably because they all want to get home to London anyway :rolleyes: ---the tabloids / sections of the media seem to have done the judge, jury and executioner bit----again:mad: --so that's that then--as far as they are concerned.

Maybe if they went from max.mil to flight idle then see what happens.

frostbite
18th Dec 2006, 18:22
You may well be right, Knc.

The police, under huge pressure for a 'result', may well have settled for a village idiot.

ShyTorque
18th Dec 2006, 23:05
I wish the media would stop using the title "Prostitutes". Why can't they just accept they were women?

We now all know what they did for a living but surely it shouldn't be used as the primary description of them, as if their murders were less valid than "non-prostitutes".

tony draper
18th Dec 2006, 23:10
It adds spice Mr T and thats what news is all about now, entertaining not informing.
:cool:

ShyTorque
18th Dec 2006, 23:18
Yes, Mr. D, sadly you are no doubt correct.

Hey, shock horror - there are women out there who are PROSTITUTES and what's more, there's five of them got murdered!

phnuff
18th Dec 2006, 23:26
I agree with Krystal n chips. Something does not seem right here. I hope the police havn't made the mistake of trying to nail the first 'possible' they come across in order to satisfy the media.

Assuming that the police feel that they can make a case against this guy, what are the chances of that case getting chucked out of court due to the massive overload of publicity today? I mean, naming him, allowing photo's, saying where he worked etc. Unless there is definitive forensic evidence, it seems pretty hard for him to now get a fair trial.

tony draper
18th Dec 2006, 23:57
You just watch, the next thing will be cameras in court,as I understand it they are already pushing for it,and the way things are they will probably get their way,every body in authority seems to be as scared of our news media as Capitol Hill was of J Edgar Hoover.
Then we can look forward to some juicy OJ Simpson type trial home grown entertainment on our news channels.

RatherBeFlying
19th Dec 2006, 01:33
Here in Canada, a man is about to go on trial for the murder of several prostitutes -- this after close to fifty had disappeared over some five years or so.

If somebody is so full of hate that he wants to murder women, these are easy victims as they generally have to agree to get in the man's car in order to pursue their trade.

As to whether the current arrestee is the perp, we shall have to see if he's more than just a regular customer without the social skills to get it for free. If any of the victims got some DNA under her fingernails, we shall see in not too long a time.

Mariner9
19th Dec 2006, 04:21
Have been overseas for a while, following this on BBC world, missed all the main UK media hysteria thankfully.

He seems such an obvious suspect given that radio interview. Could that predjudice a trial? I'm not sure, given that the interview would prolly be produced as evidence in the trial and the jury would hear it in any event. Perhaps FL could elaborate.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
19th Dec 2006, 04:28
under huge pressure for a 'result', may well have settled for a village idiot.Are you talking about Ipswich, or the 2000 US election?

ChocksAwayUK
19th Dec 2006, 08:22
And here's the dude's MySpace page (http://www.myspace.com/85784962). The scary thing? He's got 8 friends.
Ozzy

Myspace is firewalled where I am so I can't check for an update - but certainly yesterday afternoon after Ozzy's post he only had 7 friends left. Anyone still showing some loyalty toward their buddy?

lexxity
19th Dec 2006, 09:04
A second person has been arrested, a 48 year old "person" this time.

kissmysquirrel
19th Dec 2006, 09:17
Myspace is firewalled where I am so I can't check for an update - but certainly yesterday afternoon after Ozzy's post he only had 7 friends left. Anyone still showing some loyalty toward their buddy?


The site is now closed down/page removed whatever. I always thought you were innocent until proven guilty? It seems that naming a guy who maybe had nothing to do with it is a bit unfair. Why don't we just bring back the death penalty. Hang him tomorrow and hope they got the right guy?

:rolleyes:

Curious Pax
19th Dec 2006, 09:24
Ref the interview with the first guy arrested - anyone see a parallel with the Soham murders? Ian Huntley was keen to be interviewed, as an eager helper in the quest for the culprit (:yuk: ). 2 ways to take that - either the police have thought the same, and nabbed Tesco man on that basis, but have jumped to conclusions; or murderers have a penchant for talking to the media about crimes they have been involved in.

The second arrest is a little odd too - doesn't seem like a crime that 2 would be involved in, unless one of them is the Maxine Carr 'lookalike'.

Regardless of any oddness about it all however, I just hope they have got the guy(s) who did it, and have a case that will stand up in court.

tony draper
19th Dec 2006, 09:28
Sky reporter on the spot just bragged after this morning news conference that "It won't take us long to track down this new suspect"
Tell me they are out of control.
:uhoh:

gravity victim
19th Dec 2006, 13:14
That Tom whatsit character is probably not the Suffolkator - a Renault Clio is surely far too small for multiple corpse transportation?

Mind you if it is him, a smart move to do all the media interviews, which may allow him to claim the trial is prejudiced - also by getting out in advance the story that he had had all the girls in his house partying, there goes any forensic evidence.

Krystal n chips
19th Dec 2006, 16:06
Sky reporter on the spot just bragged after this morning news conference that "It won't take us long to track down this new suspect"
Tell me they are out of control.
:uhoh:

Jeremy Vine's show made "interesting listening " in this respect--ie those who felt the excessive media intrusion was justified and those who, for whatever reason, now thought otherwise---given that every outlet seems to have been like a herd of truffling pigs with regard to this story--well almost---C4 News and the Guardian treated the matter with more respect than others and C5 News showed some balanced perspectives as well--which they do quite frequently actually. The BBC, I am sorry to say, was a disgrace. Even the normally reliable and very professional Margaret Gilmour got dragged down into the mess----the two "reporters" who have been covering the event from the beginning however----"This years Ham Actors and Dwama Queens Award" is shared by....

G-CPTN
19th Dec 2006, 16:20
What happened to "The fat man in the BMW"? :confused:
He is a chubby man
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1244659,00.html

panda-k-bear
19th Dec 2006, 16:42
Oh there goes Krstal singing the praises of the Grauniad and its respectfulness again :rolleyes:

He'll be telling us how well balanced their reporting is next...

5 people dead and still you all only care how awful the reporting is :yuk:

Krystal n chips
19th Dec 2006, 17:06
Oh there goes Krstal singing the praises of the Grauniad and its respectfulness again :rolleyes:
He'll be telling us how well balanced their reporting is next...
5 people dead and still you all only care how awful the reporting is :yuk:

Not the most perceptive of people are we ?. If you have the inclination, go back to the beginning of this thread---and read all the posts----carefully. Thank you.

brain fade
19th Dec 2006, 18:34
I bet bjcc a quid the plods got the wrong guy, at least with arrestee number 1.

Hope they get the real perp tho, because if not they'll probably fit some simpleton or other up for it.:rolleyes:

RatherBeFlying
19th Dec 2006, 19:29
HM Plod's problem is that there well could be a considerable number of men who have been customers of all the victims, not that we can expect to see them all eagerly coming forward to assist HM Plod in their inquiries.

And it's quite possible that none of the presumably satisfied customers is the perp. I would venture to suggest that it's a customer who can't get satisfaction; therefore not a repeat customer.

The next problem is that strangulation does not tend to leave the victims' blood in the perp's car or premises or clothes; so, not potential in the way of forensic evidence except for what may be under the victims' fingernails.

I would think that the lawyer for the first arrestee will have a fine time parading the remaining ladies he has patronised through the stand -- all testifying that he was well behaved.

tony draper
19th Dec 2006, 20:39
Of course he could also do what the original Jack did, he could just dissapear.:uhoh:

bjcc
19th Dec 2006, 21:24
brain fade

Even if I took your bet, whoever won wouldn't be able to collect!

Is he the right or wrong person? I have no idea, I don't have access to the evidence, nor do you. It wouldn't suprise me if he was not charged, nor would it suprise me if he was. As with all murder enquries, people get accused, or evidence at first tends to suggest a suspect, but after being interviewed they are eliminated.

I didn't see any of the interview with the first arrested person that was broadcast, but I listened to a peice on radio news today, where 2 solicitors had opposing views on the effect of broadcasting, if they are representitive, then it seems even lawyers can't decide.

As for fitting someone up...To gain what?

G-CPTN
21st Dec 2006, 22:26
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1244849,00.html?f=dta
A man has been charged with murdering five Ipswich prostitutes.
Steve Wright, 48, of Ipswich, has been charged with killing Gemma Adams, Tania Nicol, Anneli Alderton, Paula Clennell and Annette Nichlls.
He will appear at Ipswich Magistrates Court tomorrow.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6194351.stm
A 48-year-old man has been charged with murdering five women whose bodies were found in countryside near Ipswich.
Stephen Wright was arrested on Tuesday morning at his home in the London Road area of the town.
He has been charged with murdering prostitutes Gemma Adams, 25, Anneli Alderton, 24, Tania Nicol, 19, Paula Clennell, 24, and Annette Nicholls, 29.
Police said the first man arrested Tom Stephens, 37, has been released on police bail.

Flash0710
21st Dec 2006, 23:00
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a109/Noblelordflash/ipswichbj4.jpg

xx

f

G-CPTN
29th Dec 2006, 21:59
Apologies for reviving this thread, but there were many who were lobbying for legalised brothels as a means of doing away with 'organised crime' and trafficking of women.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6216801.stm
Amsterdam's mayor, Job Cohen, claims that many sex businesses are fronts for criminal activity, such as women trafficking and money laundering.

G-CPTN
11th Feb 2007, 12:40
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6351083.stm
Police have arrested two men on suspicion of murder after a woman's body was found in the boot of a car.
The body was discovered by Suffolk Police in the car which had been driven to Ipswich police station on Saturday.
A police spokesman said two men were arrested at Ipswich police station shortly after 2230 GMT and were being held in custody.

ExBHX
11th Feb 2007, 12:45
First of all the whores, now the turkeys, chances of getting a gobble in Suffolk are real slim now!!

:) :) :)

Deano777
11th Feb 2007, 15:12
Very bad taste, women were killed here, they were someone's daughter, someones sister etc :ugh:

frostbite
11th Feb 2007, 15:42
But that's what we do best in JB, Deano!

Agree with you on that though.