Eastern Airways

[nomercy]

There have been one or two articles recently commenting on how some airline companies may be immoral. I think the latest recruitment strategy of the above company falls into this category - this is how it goes

You are asked to attend a three week groundschool without pay and probably at short notice. You will be asked to take a sim ride and probably pay for this yourself. If they like you they will send you to the U.S.A for sim training and you will have to sign for a 15k three year loan which they will pay if you stay and you will pay if you leave. You may wait a few weeks for the sim obviously without pay.

Problems - Who can suddenly leave their current job for three weeks to attend such a grounschool without a job offer. Who can loiter around for a few more weeks without pay waiting for further training. Who wants a 15k loan hanging around their neck for an aircraft (J41) that is only flown by their company in the U.K. What happens if you fall out of favour with the company after a few months? The only person who would be suited to the above is a rich unemployed person who is desperate. I know there are some desperate people about - BEWARE!

Nomercy

[Pilot Pete]

What do you mean BEWARE? No-one is forced to attend. If you don't like the sound of it don't go along and pay your money..........I think the word SCAM is a little strong, it is no worse than many other companies in the market.

PP

[Luke SkyToddler]

Nomercy, no brain more like :hmm:

Eastern Airways a scam, honestly some of you lot don't know you're born do you.

One of the last few remaining operators in the UK that actually takes on 200 hour pilots, pays them well even while they're on their training course, and still bonds people as opposed to making them go buy a rating, man if that is a scam then I only wish they had scammed me when I was fresh out of flying school looking for a job. In fact when I was floating around the job market with 1500 hours of instructing looking for a job I would still have ripped their arm off for an interview.

Seriously nomercy if you are unemployed and you go turning down a quality outfit like Eastern because you reckon it's a 'scam' then you deserve to have your head examined. Or work for Ryanair. Or both.

Mods you really should delete or at least re-title this thread, because it does a real disservice to a bloody good employer of wannabes, to have a title like that floating around :(

[rmcdonal]

Dam... Im moving to England. If you think thats a scam get your lazy arse down here to OZ and pay 30k for your 737 endo.
Bonded in a job is better then no job in my books.
:eek:
And get your facts straight, "You are asked to attend a three week groundschool without pay and probably at short notice. You will be asked to take a sim ride and probably pay for this yourself", don't post this crap unless you know for sure.

[moku]

Sounds more like someone got turned down, is a tad bitter and needs to throw the dummy from the pram!:} :eek:

[nomercy]

pilot petes reply is perfectly true - no one has to attend. My post is intended to let people know what is happening at this company which is a change to their previous methods.

There are possibally people who have the time and money to go along with such schemes but there are also many who can not afford to take the chance for financial or other reasons.

If a company takes low hour pilots this does not instantly make them a good company but i can not make judgement on that.

If people are prepared to pay silly amounts of money for type training that is their choice. Any scheme which in any way does a disservice to a person who has already paid many thousands of pounds to qualify is a scam in my view - and you have to question the morals of people who think otherwise!

Nomercy

[muppethead]

Nomercy,

Im with Luke Skytodler on this one. I think you are out of order in critisicing this company like this. I dont know what experience you have or what your background is but can I suggest that this method is a small price to pay to get an opportunity with a company like Eastern Airways!!

I for one had an interview with Eastern and was asked if I was willing to attend a 3 week groundschool without job offer, I was also asked to do a sim assessment which I have to pay for. I did not hesitate to agree to the above request, a small price to pay for a fantastic job.

It is not a 'SCAM' and as the others said, if you dont like it then look for another job. There are alot of wannabies out there looking for a job who would quite happily settle for the above. Its sink or swim my friend!!

Muppet..

[MaxReheat]

No, it's not a SCAM but it is another example of a small company trying to save money at the expense of its future employees. Perhaps Eastern is actually going to start to incurr some real costs for operating the J41 - has the Citiexpress subsidy run out at last?

£15K for the bond - probably overpriced and I'm sure you could convince a court to that effect but it is no great tie given that the majority of raw recruits would probably stick with an outfit like Eastern for 3 years in any case. It is the self-funded ground school and sim ride where the compnay, and others doing the same, are taking the proverbial. I have some sympathy with Nomercy in that takers of this scheme are doing the airline a huge favour and themselves a diservice - why the hell should you subsidise a company who might, after 6 weeks, throw you back on the scrap heap? It is the company which requires your skills and dedication and if it isn't prepared to pay for that from day 1 then it isn't worth working for.

PPrune is weighed under with threads concerning the erosion of terms and conditions professional pilots have suffered over the past 10 years, the self financing of type ratings etc. While people are prepared to sell themselves short to the likes of this unpaid work scheme Eastern is trying, then employers will continue to try it on and the mugs will still roll in through the gates. The first mug may well do well but he is doing no favours for the mugs that follow and don't. They walk away more out of pocket and more disillusioned.

Day 1 of ground-school should be day 1 of your paid employment!

[Re-Heat]

Terms and conditions have only been eroded as people are willing to accept them. Morality may be one thing, but in running a business that is successful at recruiting pilots, it is irrelevant in this instance.

First it was bonds that were immoral, now it is paying for type ratings that is immoral. Morality moves as more desperate people enter the job market. The fools are not the company but those whom accept such offers.

This offer far exceeds those from some whom cut everything to the bone. Stop whining and accept it - it is you whom made the free decision to enter the industry, presumably not under duress.

[Baseturn]

Hardly a SCAM my friend, more a condition of the market place, its been happening for some time and was certainly quite common when you sold your grandmother to buy your licence! the whole paying for your type rating is too big an issue to resolve here.
It is however a new thing for Eastern as in the past the employee was interviewed bonded and on the payroll from day one.
I was offered and grabbed with two hands the oportunity to fly a 748 for emerald, training costs up front no guarantee of a job on an aircraft that was as much use as an ashtrsy on a motorbike!..............SCAM...............NO as i knew what it was i knew the risks and the benefits it was my choice.
At least Eastern operate a modern fleet with EFIS, medium weight TP well maintained Aircraft with an excellent training record and some very good people. I'm not blowing sunshine out of their b?@*"}! but you could do a lot worse.

[markflyer6580]

I fly at Humberside and speaking to some of thier pilots and crew I would be up for this so called scam-a good outfit and for a wannabe like me it would be an ideal first job.
If you are confident in your abilities then surely its not much of a risk unlike a 737 type rating is.:ok:

[YYZ]

There are possibally people who have the time and money to go along with such schemes

And I'm one of them, If Steve, Chris or anyone wants to PM me from Eastern I can be at Humberside for an interview within a few hours!

I would of assumed if you got as far as an interview with them you would of been aware of what to expect from the company?

YYZ

[Sphinx]

It's not a scam - everyone seems to have been uinformed up front of what is involved. HOWEVER, it is a cr@p offer. People in this industry need to stop paying to have a job. F atpl and MCC is enough to pay for. If you pass those you ARE good enough to fly an airliner - it is easier in many ways when compared to single pilot IFR.

Therefore do not agree to these unpaid offers. A pilot shortage is coming in the UK - just look at the amount of jobs coming through compared with 18 months ago. The affect of sucking up pilots from TP / instructor jobs is now happening, and those with a F ATPL will have a good chance of an interview in the next year if they are "good people".

[STATLER]

This deal is not a scam, my understanding from the above is that all you are doing is standing your salary costs for three weeks and paying for the sim ride. Sounds like the ground school course is paid for. (How hard are you going to work at the ground school if your continuation with the company depends on it?)
I worked for Eastern from 2003 for 18 months. Then you took out a 12,000 loan for two years which they paid off (you never got involved with the cash transaction apart from receiving a bank statement once a month. the payment to the bank was never paid late.) This has now changed to 15K over 3yrs. Why? To dissuade folk from leaving It’s a bond that’s all . Eastern have been hit with people moving on to the jet operators.

As for my time with the company well I enjoyed it immensely you get fantastic training, great people, approachable management. For the sake of paying for a sim ride and three weeks worth of salary you would be a fool to turn Eastern down if they offer you a place.

[desk_bound]

I can only echo what everyone else has said, I would kill for a job with Eastern. Left Banking to gain my fATPL which I now have but guess what I am back doing!!! Would swop my nice desk and chair in my office for the RHS in a J32/J41 or Saab any day and twice on Sundays.........so if any one from Eastern reads this you have my CV already!!! :D

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I decided to leave this thread run with this title as the replies eloquently and fully establish the true nature of the deal.

Its sad that less than 5 years ago I was able to join my first airline on the 737 and got paid not only expenses for the interview but full salary on day one of the induction and groundschool course in return for signing a three year paper bond. This is how things should be but aren't anymore.

Sad. Not immoral. If nobody applied...

Cheers

WWW

[Doug E Style]

Perhaps nomercy should have looked up the definition of "scam" in a dictionary before using the word inaccurately.

[ATP_Al]

This is not a "scam" in any sense of the word! What's wrong with using the groundschool as part of the selection process? As far as I can work out they are not charging you for it, so it's just an extended interview.

Surely the point of a bond is to dissuade people from leaving in the first place, not just to recover the cost of the TR when the actually go. I'm sure the inconvience of having to replace the guys you've just trained runs into thousands as well, whatever type the company flies.

I feel like a broken record here, but surely if people stopped whinging and actually got on with their lives they would realise that there are still a lot of positive opportunities out there, this one included! And if you don't like the way this industry is going then don't write "I am willing to pay of my own type rating" in every covering letter you send out!

[GMIMA]

I have worked for eastern over a year now, its a top notch company to work for, im just glad ive got a flying job. if people think its a scam (which it isnt) then dont apply. easy enough people.

the people i fly with are great, very experienced guys i can learn from. the j41 is a fast turbo prop so u need your witts about you, and puts u in good stread for that all important jet job.

[airpilot]

Just had an email back from wendy stating that not everybody will have the opportunity of an interview but re submit your details in 4mths. If they are recruiting, I certainly would'nt mind an interview and 3wks loss of pay. If there was a break between groundschool and sim theres no harm doing a bit of agency work.

[Charley]

Which sim are they using for the sim check? The J31 at Woodford? It might be much less attractive an offer if the candidate has to fund their own way all the way to the J41 sim in Washington DC.

Anyone actually know what the charge for the check is? And, are Eastern the first TP operator to charge selection fees? I don't think flybe or BACX do, IIRC.

And to play the devil's advocate for a moment, to those who bandy about the 'well you entered the industry, nobody forced you' comment at people - did you consider the possibility that some of these folks may just have entered the industry long enough ago that paying for one's own check at the likes of Eastern and getting bonded onto a 10t Jetstream for 3 years was unheard of? Perhaps they've gone down the instructor route only to see the goalposts moving as they've done so...

After all, only 18 months ago (yes, only 18 months) the only companies asking candidates to pay for their own selection process were those flying shiny jets and even then only a small number of companies at that. WWW's post says it all, really.

Finally, deskbound said:


Left Banking to gain my fATPL which I now have but guess what I am back doing!!!


I'm curious; deskbound, did you pay the interview costs when you want back to the bank?

[desk_bound]

Ok point taken I did not pay for my interveiw when I went back into the finance world ............but I did have expirence say"500 hrs on type"" !!
But on a serious note I can understand both sides of the coin ours and the beancounters............but i am so bored behind a desk again, just wanna fly! and yes I have mortgaged the family silver so no spare cash to go down the instructing route. :(

[Charley]

Hehe, good answer deskbound! :)

At least Eastern are still offering the bond, and not a TRSS for the Jetstream. A self-sponsored rating on a rather less-than-ubiquitous type would have been a bitter pill to swallow. Sadly, there is a chance that the beancounters probably thought about it. Perhaps sadder still, someone somewhere would probably have taken the deal.

This could still prove to be something of a watershed in recruitment terms. I'm sure Eastern are the first of the entry-level carriers to introduce candidate fees and delay the payroll until the new FO takes their seat on the flight deck. Given the history of the last few years we may find the other entry-level airlines following suit.

As we speak, there will be unemployed CPLs everywhere putting their hands down the back of the couch for loose change or looking up that long-lost great uncle...

Now if they would only offer to bond new entrants onto the Saabs... :p

(As an aside, I've been reading these forums for a few years now. Since, in fact, the days when WWW was looking for his first job and cutting his teeth as an instructor. So much has changed in this industry since then and reading his post put that into perspective).

[judge11]

Perhaps I came into the industry around the same time as WWW and MaxReheat - but IMHO what Eastern is doing is out and out exploitation of those who are prepared to dig and dig again into ever emptying pockets. I would invite any contributors to name any other profession where a trainee is not put on the payroll from day one. You wouldn't expect to join Barclays Bank, for example, to be told that you won't receive any pay until you have passed your first set of banking exams. Why the aviation industry is always seeking to exploit and denegrate its employees to breaking point escapes me. This is a new strategy for Eastern and one has to ask why they are, at this stage in the day, trying to cut back on costs.

[holyflurkingschmitt]

Charley they are taking new starters onto the Saabs. Base dependant of course. The Saabs are based at Humberside and Aberdeen.

The J41 is an excellent aircraft to start on and 3 weeks of no pay and a bond of 15k for 3 years is a small price to pay for your first job!!

It has been said before but they have to do something to stop people leaving after 6 months and to keep there training costs down.

I'm enjoying every minute of it and it was worth the bond. I would recommend Eastern to any new starter. If they offer you it bite there hands off.

HFS:ok:

[muppethead]

The sim assessment is carried out by Triple a flying at Humberside airport by a chap called Mike Briggs. On the old FNPT1, SID, tracking, vectors to ILS to land, that is the typical profile.

Cost =£176.

No trips to the states or Woodford you'll be glad to know!!

[aces low]

You will find very few posts by Eastern pilots on PPRUne. We are busy, building hours, learning from some great colleagues and enjoying the flying. For a first job it is excellent in most regards (although T&C's could be better). We fly a fast, sometimes tricky, little sports car of a plane - often doing procedural approaches for real at some out of the way places. For a small outfit, it has a professional pilot attitudes and is a great training ground for the next job. I have no regrets about being bonded for £15k. If I leave early, it will be for a better paid job that will probably be less fun and result in seeing less of the kids.

I gather the new recruitment procedure will involve a sim assessment on a FNPT2 in the UK (surely not more than £200?) and a chance to observe people while on the ground school...to see if they fit in. Like any airline we have our share of tossers and silver spooners, but the selection procedures have been pretty good so far. I never had £25k to buy a 737 rating, but Eastern are one of the very few airlines that will bond you. In a year's time they will either have dropped the requirement to fund your own groundschool, or they will have gone the whole hog and make you pay for the whole lot up front....all depending upon which way the market goes.

In the end it is up to you whether you apply now or gamble on getting something tastier later in the day. However, as a note of caution, the new MultiPilotCPL is due to come in in 2007...so self improvers with experience on only light twins might find that avenues to shiny jet jobs at 200 hours might be closed down. My advice....get a job asap...pay as little as possible and then move on.

[Stratman]

Airlines are only indulging in this practise of making new entrants pay for type-ratings and various other training because they now know that they can,the accountants tested the water at the perfect time with a gross oversupply of new pilot candidates, those with the financial ability signed up, so to speak and the practise has now become almost acceptable. It is turning this industry into a farce. A job that is only reachable by those who can throw the most money at it and this is not how it used to be and need not be now. The power to change this rests not with the companies, they are generally run by persons that care little about flying, but with newly qualified pilots. the simple answer is do not pay for type training, the companies will still require pilots from time to time, they always have. and they will train you on the aircraft they operate. Take it from someone who has been invovled in this industry for many a year and knows how it works.
I know there will always be a queue jumping element in this job, it used to be a very much ` knowing the right people` industry, to a degree this is still true, but now being replaced by this pay money up front culture. Pilots by their nature can be a fairly selfish bunch, I want it now attitude thats why many chose this job, my advice is to stand together{ though that may not be in your nature} and just refuse to subscribe to this paying for everything culture, you could turn this around in a very short time believe me.

[duir]

The sim assessment is carried out by Triple a flying at Humberside airport by a chap called Mike Briggs. On the old FNPT1, SID, tracking, vectors to ILS to land, that is the typical profile.
Cost =£176.

Surely Eastern would not use Mike Briggs to run the assesment? I was rather hoping that Eastern ran the assesment themselves as this would seem much more impartial. Whilst I do not wish to re-ignite the old Tripple A slanging match here, Mike ows/runs? a school that provide CPL/IR training and they perform he sim checks. Surely it is in their best interest to pass their own clientel giving a far less than neutral overview of other candidates. It is worth noting that on their website it states that several of their students have gained employment recently with Eastern. The literature does seem to smack of "do your training with us, get a job with Eastern".

£12K - £15K bond......... fair enough
3 weeks of unpaid groundschool.......... okay if I have to
Sim Assesment..........fair enough

£176 for an FNPT1 with Tripple A...........come on.

Whilst I can see the logic behind Easterns new approach, it has to be said that if the above profile is true £176 for an FNPT1 sim check that is not even loggable seems a little steep, particularly if you do not get through.

Surely a far better way to retain pilots is to make the bond Larger at the beginning of 3 years and reducing most in the final year.

or better still

Give older people with no immediate jet aspirations a fair crack at the whip, I for one would be more than happy to stay for 3 years if a command was offered, as have several of my pals at Eastern.

[athonite]

Eastern latest recruitment policy can only make one wonder who the 'brains' is behind this?

Having had over twenty five years in both military and civil aviation mainley in an intructional/training/recruitment role, I would like to make the following comments:

(a) From my experience, there is not always a correlation between performance on ground training and flight training. Infact I failed a few regretably, in my time who did brilliantly on the ground school, but couldn't hack the simulator and line traing!

(b) What is Eastern doing evaluating Instrument Skills on an FNPT1, surely if the man has a valid IR, they trust the better judgement of an IRE!

(c) Many of the companies I have worked for, prefered taking on chaps who while seeking an airline job, were holding down a steady day job, and were not impressed by chaps who would leave their previous employment without at least two months notice

(d) Eastern, who is some senses are a 'coporate' airline, flying mostly businessmen/women, these people are well informed. It surely would be only a matter of time before these clients will discover through the media, the shabby employment practice in Eastern, a PR disaster waiting to happen.

(e) Finally, a word of caution, to those seeking their first airline job, don't keep posting messages saying you think its a god deal, because it isn't, next Eastern will require your left t**t**le. Just hang in there and don't undersell youself!

[muppethead]

Duir,

What I said about Mike Briggs doing the assessment is absolutly true. There may however be an Eastern Airways 'representative' present during the sim check.

Yes its an FNPT1 and yes it does cost £176!

Take that as you may...

Muppethead..

[duir]

On the Triple A website they quote

FNPT1 as £110 net £129 net plus VAT

Presumably this is per hour with an instructor? Therefore due to the cost of the sim ride I can only conclude that it lasts around 1 hour and 30 mins. This seems rather a long time to be assesed on the FNPT1, if there are about 5 other candidates undergoing assesment too. With a thorough briefing and debriefing as you would expect for this kind of money, that's an awfully long day in the sim for Mr Briggs.

[european champion]

How can someone arrange to do the sim ride?IS it arranged by Triple A or by talking to Easter Airways?

[silverknapper]

What a whingeing bunch. At the end of the day if you don't like it don't apply. As Luke says, Eastern are one of the few TP operators recruiting low hours pilots. Why the hell they have to justify their assessment system to some hacked off pruners is beyond me.
The reason they have these is they have been bitten in the past by people with IR's, but with no ability to fly the line. Why shouldn't they have a look at you? I agree that it is debatable if an FNPT1 is the best way of assessing that, and doubt the ethics of using a school which can capitilise on this commercially. BUT - it is a hoop to jump through, as is the MCC. If you don't like it go to Ryan and pay £20k for your assessment. You can be dropped just as easily with the TR!

[duir]

Silverknapper

Eastern are one of the few companies in the UK that do not come out with this "are you Integrated/1000hour plus" crap and that's why I really wanted to work for them. I have many friends with Eastern and it was one of my shortlisted airlines to work for. Unfortunately loosing 3 weeks worth of income(if you can get the time off without loosing your job) and paying 3 weeks B+B during the groundschool whilst unwaged and with no firm job offer, rules a lot of people out. Therefore you are left with the DBIs(Daddy bought it) and the desperate..........are these really the best people to recruit? The answer is a resounding NO! Thast's because these are the exact people that in 18 months will be off to shiny jetland and Eastern are right back to the problem of staff retention.

I do feel that an FNPT1 assesment is perhaps much fairer for people looking for their first job as this is more in keeping with previous IR experience(I for one have around 50 hours FNPT1). However to charge for this, which some schools (Triple A included) give solo time for free is very questionable. Certainly not the £176

I just can't see how anyone can get 3 weeks off work at short notice and not get sacked. If you quit the job you may not get called up for months. "Do any job to survive" .... not so simple I am afraid. I work as a full time FI and am very well paid with a yearly retainer plus flight pay. This just about keeps the debts from the door and my head above water, how can I give that up on a maybe? Say I pass the assesment but wait several months for a position, that's hundreds of hours flying lost and a lot of income.

It really isn't whingeing, it's sheer dissappointment.:(

[silverknapper]

and it was one of my shortlisted airlines to work for.
I'm sure Eastern are devastated they are no longer you're shortlisted airline to work for.
I know someone going through selection and he was told either do the sim ride and then get paid whilst on groundschool OR do groundschool unpaid with no sim ride. Not sure how passing groundschool means you can fly but never mind.
My point is duir that if you don't like it don't apply. But don't then come on here moaning about it. At the end of the long road getting a CPL people should jump at any opportunity. Face it, at the moment there aren't a lot of other options at the moment. Be positive someone will pay for a type rating for you.

[Bertie Bassett]

silverknapper,

"At the end of the long road getting a CPL people should jump at any opportunity".

Really? Even if it means paying to be assessed and not getting paid during groundschool? What next, £50 for Eastern to read your CV? No pay during line training? Half pay once line training completed until 6 months flying has been completed?

I think the reason some people have posted their disquiet is that at a time when the market is supposedly "good" for low-time pilots (and that is a relative term), we are seeing another company follow the Ryanair approach to pilot recruitment.

Now, just because you are happy with the situation doesn't mean other wannabes shouldn't be able to come on to this bulletin board and express their disquiet about it. It's a disturbing new development and one not to be welcomed.

I'm with MaxReheat on this.

"It is the self-funded ground school and sim ride where the compnay, and others doing the same, are taking the proverbial"

"PPrune is weighed under with threads concerning the erosion of terms and conditions professional pilots have suffered over the past 10 years, the self financing of type ratings etc. While people are prepared to sell themselves short to the likes of this unpaid work scheme Eastern is trying, then employers will continue to try it on and the mugs will still roll in through the gates."

[duir]

Silverknapper

Terribly sorry to have upset you old boy and of course I would take it if offered as only a fool would turn down their first commercial break. It will be bloody hard financially though. Oh well, I shall try to stop bleating like a ginger step child.

[silverknapper]

I'm beginning to sound like I'm an Eastern employee - I'm not. And as previously stated I have doubts about the morality of a commercial school doing the assessment and potentially misleading students about employment prospects.
BUT
Paying £170 for a sim check is not the end of the world. Drawing comparisons with Ryan is very unfair- Eastern pay everything else for you. Plenty of people are applying to Eastern. It would be easy for them to ignore min hours guys totally and recruit people with at least a few hundred hours. The fact they will take a chance on you surely justifies letting them assess you without being penalised financially?

SK

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi there
Eastern aren't alone at this lark.I totally agree with duir's posts.Mortgages and children tend to put the kibosh on taking three weeks off any job.Candidates applying for a well-known Irish turboprop operator have to carry out a sim-check on a B737-200 sim in EIDW,at their own expense.Anyone wanting to have a real chance of getting a start will have to do some time in that sim before the actual check-ride.At E300/hr, it's a bit of a sting on the pocket....If Eastern are willing to give low-timers a shot, then good, but it's still a bit much.
regards
TDD

[scroggs]

My point is duir that if you don't like it don't apply. But don't then come on here moaning about it.

No, do come on here and do moan about it. It is only by publicising these underhand methods of cost-saving that we may embarrass the organisations concerned into returning to conventional, decent methods and terms of employment.

Scroggs

[Bertie Bassett]

SK,
I have doubts about the morality of a commercial school doing the assessment and potentially misleading students about employment prospects.
Agreed.
Paying £170 for a sim check is not the end of the world.
No, it isn't the end of the world, I agree. But, if Eastern are seen to be getting away with it then more and more TP airlines will follow suit. It will then be seen as another ncecesary expense to be borne by wannabes and, as I inferred in my previous post, it's then only a short step to charging for reading CV's, being interviewed, etc. :yuk:
Drawing comparisons with Ryan is very unfair- Eastern pay everything else for you
Unfair? Possibly, but Eastern may pay for everything else at the moment. If the applications still roll in, will they continue to do so?
It would be easy for them to ignore min hours guys totally and recruit people with at least a few hundred hours. The fact they will take a chance on you surely justifies letting them assess you without being penalised financially?
I don't think anything justifies charging for the recruitment process whether they do look at minimum houred pilots or not. It should be a cost of doing business and will be, if people don't apply.

BB

How come this post is only viewable if I log in???

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

It'll be interesting to see what the "ground school" involves. Will you turn up to find 50 "candidates" for 20 jobs? The idea of having to cope with any normal ground school is daunting enough. Having to not only meet a certain standard but beat off the opposition as well sounds unbearable.

Perhaps someone at Eastern Airway has been watching too many reality TV shows. Maybe, it'll be like Big Brother and you'll have to pretend that you're a cat if you want to impress them!

[Craggenmore]

I find their charging policy to potential wannabees off putting and a shame. Last year a ticket from Southampton to Newcastle cost my friend £325 and the plane was almost full! So why these interview and groundschool costs with these ticket prices. That must be one of the most expensive business class tickets money can buy. You can get to JFK on a 777 for the same money these days; But Southampton-Newcastle!

By way of comparison, my interview day with a European carrier consisted of a group exercise, 3 on 1 interview lasting 1 hour, then a few days later a 1 hour sim check on Cranebank's 737..

The cost? Well the car park at Gatwick cost me £8 for the day and roughly £4 for fuel. Lunch was provided free. Then later on the carpark at Cranebank was free with about £4 spent again on petrol.

A total cost of £15.

As a result, you naturally feel respected and genuinely wanted as a member of staff. And you are.

To be in a job where I had to fund my own interview, groundschool and TR, well, you know exactly where you stand and how management thinks of you from day 1. You can usually tell a company's ethics from its recruitment policy. Remember; First Impressions Count.

Deep down you're flying but at what cost to your dignity and T's and C's.

[el dorado]

Try the Rockhopper scam: they're facing a minor revolution because they're trying to bond Islander pilots to the tune of £6,000 for doing what they're already hired to do i.e. fly. At least the guys who get trained on the Jetstreams get something for their bond but 6K just to prevent people from leaving is insulting. Several have quite rightly refused to sign and are now leaving. A company that has enough money to buy 3 aircraft saying it can't pay people properly is silly. The way you keep people is to make them happy to be there. If it's seen as a revolving door you have a lot of work to.

[flightbag]

Ive been at Eastern for about 2 years now. The training and standards are high, with a genuine effort to constantly improve further.

As for a SCAM, the company is offering first timers the chance to operate an EFIS tprop in a professional MONEY MAKING outfit! After 500hrs on the J41 most jet operators will give you a serious look, as the number of pilots moving from Estern to BMIbaby, GB, First Choice, Thomson Fly,CityEXP, Easy and Jet2 can testify.

The main problem is that Eastern is still fairly new, and is trying to find the right conditions/terms of recruitment that suit its needs and the market place.This leads to variations in "offers" depending on your experience and background, which in turn leads to silly rumours of SCAMS on sites like this.

[tunalic2]

Picture the scene
Pay for your FATPL
Pay for your sim ride
Payfree for three weeks of ground school
Pay for your type rating
Pay free working for 3 years (ok just threw that in to see if the rich would notice)
Limited pension
but what a great opportunity to gain experience so you can go somewhere and fly jets, Ryanair perhaps, where you
Pay for your sim ride
Pay for your type rating
work for 6 months line training for £9000
1/2 pay for 6 months than full pay
then your company changes type so you
Pay for your conversion
etc etc etc etc etc etc
ok a little of the above was made up , unfortunately not much, but where does it stop?
Perhaps when everybody and there rich dog stops bending over backwards and paying for everything they are told to pay for, or perhaps when the figures don't add up anymore. I must admit it seems to be getting pretty close by now.
I'm off to find me a rich dog (all puns intended)

[european champion]

It looks like a very good deal to me,actually every company that charges for type rating but guarantees a job is a good deal.
I dont believe anyone owes me a job just because i have a frozen atpl,why would a company choose me with no time of type and pay to train me when they have a choice of getting others with a lot more experience and time on type,it wouldnt make sense.

[cavortingcheetah]

:p

In the very beginning, Eastern was a lot of fun. Then it became bigger, imported some different management and became somewhat less fun.
Nonetheless, where in England can a low time pilot even begin to find a job which allows him to fly reasonably sophisticated aeroplanes for hire and reward and with a degree of choice of bases as well?!
It's a good enough company and well worth a little trouble and effort to join. They know at Humberside that the airline is a stepping stone and not a career airline. You start there, go around the houses, and perhaps end there. I think all this whining is really rather shameful and continues to carry the flag for those who regard pilots as a whingeing self - aggrandising bunch of people neither satisfied with their individual lot nor possessing the collective gumption to band together to do something about it.
Now these thoughts might make me somewhat unpopular but then again, the employment policy at Eastern would seem to be affording work to pilots whilst allowing the company to expand, even to the extent of placing humourous advertisements in The Spectator, thereby creating the opportunity for yet more pilot placings.:)
So on that cheery note: Toodle Pip!:E

[silverknapper]

Nicely put as always CC.
I'm not condoning it. But everyone whining about it should remember that they are lucky an airline will even look at low hours guys. Go to places like SA, Oz, NZ etc and try get a job on an airline with less than 5000 hours.
Eastern didn't used to do sim assessments, but have been burnt in the past by low houred guys. Just cos you have a CPL/IR doesn't entitle you to a job, or mean you will adjust to an airline operation well.

[Fancy Navigator]

...We are back to the same old problem, and frankly, I totally agree with some of the posts here saying that you should not pay for your interview and attend 3 weeks of groundschool unpaid without being sure of being taken on, of having a job. Day 1 of groundschool should be day 1 of employment and pay. Full stop. If they have doubts about your worth as a pilot, they should review their recruiting and interview methods. Their problems!
This is pure madness, this makes me sick!!! They surely can't expect you to drop everything (a job, etc...) for a job that you still do not have!!! Nobody owes me a job, sure, but we, as pilots, must make sure that our T&C's are not going down the tube.
I know for a fact, that, at the end of the day, there will always be people who accept lower and lower T&C's and prostitute themselves, and, let me tell you, SHAME on them!!!
FNav :)

[cavortingcheetah]

:uhoh:

Anyone who can at short notice attend a three week technical course which, whilst being free and unbonded is unpaid has two advantages over some of his peers. It might be reasonable to suppose that he is a trifle flush and, more importantly, available immediately or, in the vernacular, unemployed.
In the run up to the spring hiring season I should have thought that any small company would prefer unencumbered and enthusiastic candidates rather than those who are already in employment and whose commitment to come on board the Eastern Jetstream might be in greater doubt than those who have literally little to loose.
So, whilst not specifically condoning the policies of Eastern; I can quite understand the rationale behind their recruitment programme. I agree that the sum of £15k is absurd for a primitive little machine such as a J41 or even the half glass Saab 2000, but that's a figure driven by market forces, an encumbrance which afflicts even university undergraduates - there is perhaps a parellel between an ATPL and an MA if one might express the former in terms of an academic degree?
I do wonder, with a rather jaundiced eye, how many out there would willingly undertake a three week unpaid conversion course on, say a 737/300 or perhaps an A320, were they to believe that such devotion to the pursuit of knowledge would well equip them in the eyes of an interview panel at Ryan, Easy or whomever? I would hazard a guess that most employed pilots seeking to further their careers by such means would jump at such an opportunity, even to the extent of using their leave for such a purpose. I cannot say that I see too much abhorrent in a company offering the same sort of opportunity to pilots who are, by my original conjecture, likely to be unemployed, available and perhaps even a trifle desperate.
From a company point of view it seems to me to be an excellent recruitment policy and one which does afford instant advantage to those on the hiring ladder who might perchance be the most disadvantaged of the lot. (I could get cynical on that point, but I might just leave matters for another post.)
On this day upon which the present UK government's guide to prostitution is outlined I think it germane to point out that even these lovely ladies have associations and quasi-unions. Perhaps some appropriate flyer out there could start up a representative body to further their own ends. Some title along the lines of: 'Association of Aspiring Aviators' might be appropriate, dedicated to the interests of fledgling flyers. It is high time, I think, that BALPA had a stable mate dedicated specifically to those pilots who fall outside of the scope of that slightly storm tossed institution.:hmm:

[Decisive Attitude]

I know three guys currently at Eastern, all of whom joined in the last twelve-ish months.

All of them were employed as flying instructors before they got into Eastern. All of them would have jumped at the chance to join Eastern (and indeed did). And yet, none of them would have been able to take three weeks leave at short notice from an employer that they'd all been with for less than a year.

And while I'm making an assumption here based on the character of the three, I'm fairly sure none of them would have risked giving up their FI jobs for the chance to maybe get a job with Eastern after three weeks of unpaid groundschool. Time will surely answer fair weather flier's question; will there be the same number of candidates as jobs? Or will Eastern have assumed a certain chop rate per entry?

CC, are you sure this is an 'ideal' recruitment strategy for Eastern? Hiring the desperate and jobless lowest-hours pilots? Let's all be totally honest and totally frank here, most people both in and coming into the industry have met plots who are, sadly, commercially unemployable due personality/etc. We've all come across a gimp or two whom despite having the funds to get their ATPL really have no business doing so. There are some low-houred guys out there who don't have jobs (a.k.a 'immediately available') for a reason...

Fully concur with Duir - this kind of recruitment strategy will appeal most to the 'DBI's', who sit at home with their arse in their hands waiting for that first job to fall into their outstretched palms. As opposed to the guys and gals who have to get a job (sometimes any job, not necessarily flying) to pay the bills and feed the kids while they look.

Finally, to the chap who suggested this new policy was to weed out the undesirables before it was too late for Eastern to change their minds; what a load of bolleux, to quote the French. Are you planning to spend the rest of your career at Eastern? You must be, given that there are plenty of airlines who fly much nicer kit to much nicer places who don't make candidates go unpaid during training.

Bugger me, those airlines must all be chock full of w:mad:kers... :hmm: (otherwise known as: 'how do these airlines get their selection processes to weed out numpties while Eastern can't?' - if you buy the Eastern spin, that is...)

Nope, this is a penny pinching measure if ever I saw one. Scroggs was spot on.

[european champion]

I fully agree that a lot of pilots lower their expectations but this is because of supply of demand that governs every industry.We live in a world of competition,if u dont want the job on whatever terms someone else might want it,u have to live with it whether u like it or not.
Personally i dont like that David Beckham makes so much money,first of all because he is a f...g and second because i believe that a pilot should make more money than him,but i can live with that idea.

[Dan 98]

Imagine this, you are out with some friends and one of them starts telling you his / her plans to train for their dream job in I.T / Sales / Engineering etc... going to cost me over £50k, may take over 2 years because i'm going to do whilst i'm in my other full time job as i have a mortgage, wife, children. But it will all be worth it in the end, to get to where i want to go.

At the end when I'm qualified after passing 14 exams to test whether i have the capacity to learn, and 2 big practical tests ( CPL / IR / Multi ) to see if i have the ability to do the job ( to fly ) / I can apply for jobs. But i might have to give up my current job before i have another, to go on a 3 week course with no guarantee of getting the job!!!! And pay for an assesment to. You get the picture, you would be sat there thinking this person is crazy, committed but god thats a lot of sacrifice to get that dream.

And i think thats where the problem starts, for most it's a dream to one day fly and get paid, but it is in the long and short of it still a job hopefully one you will enjoy but all the same needs to pay the mortgage / bills / food etc...Unless there are people who will do it for free forever. A seperate thread probably!!

I'm not moaning about the sacrifices, i have come into this with my eyes WIDE open, i'm leaving an established career, i have a house which we're selling, a wife and a 4 year old, a familiar story I'm sure.

But there is no other industry i can think of or am aware of that would treat people like this or get away with it. I guess the point is in my ramblings for which i apologise is this, everyone's circumstances are different, but you don't or shouldn't have to be exploited to get to where you want to be. I don't think I'll be owed a job when i finish and I'll bang on doors and anything else to get that first break, I would even consider paying a TR if i had a [B][B]guaranteed job at the end of it, but there comes a point where personal pride comes into it, remember that.
Cheers

Dan

[cavortingcheetah]

:) How well I remember it all! Almost a never ending nightmare but I think that given the time again I would change little.

There are people who do it for little or nothing when they hardly need to. I refer of course to all the airline pilots who freelance, moonlight or operate as flight instructors thereby making life considerably harder for those who are on the way up who might not have the benefit of spanking salaries or pension schemes.
But that is another thread and a pretty contentious one at that!
Good luck.:eek:

[Globalwarning]

Eastern Airways are just jumping on the band wagon. The suckers are the guys and girls paying more and more for a career that is getting harder and harder, as well as, having returns that are going down the toilet.

Eastern is a very average company and could do with improving many of the T+C's, as well as, adopting a respect agenda when dealing with its Pilots.:hmm:

The J41 is a good stable old horse to cut your teeth on:ok:

[Mister Geezer]

As someone who used to fly for Eastern on the J41, I thought I would try and highlight why this scheme has probably been introduced since myself and many others are probably to 'blame' so to speak!!! I have been watching this discussion for a few days now but I think it is only fair if I try and show the situation from Eastern's perspective. I am not saying that I agree with what is being done so don't get the comments flowing.

When I joined I was on a full salary from day one of the ground school and once that was completed it was not uncommon to have a slight gap before you did your sim course. I had around 4 - 5 weeks, which at that time was unusually long. During this time you are more or less a sitting duck since you can't fly and with no airside pass either you can't do a great deal on the ground even if you were keen to help. So in my case I had just over a month's salary for sitting not doing very much. Fine for me but surely a bean counters nightmare? Maybe I am speaking hot air and the reasoning behind it could be very different - who knows!

As for the sim check that is being done - well that seems to be a story in its own right. When I joined and during my time with the company, it was very rare to hear that someone had been chopped from the training. However that was in a time when Eastern usually only took people with a bit of instructing or air taxi time behind them so flying skills were normally adequate. Back then to have less than 500 hours on joining was the exception and now it is very common by the sounds of things. As a result maybe some sort of quality control system is required to ensure that all candidates have the necessary ability. The current arrangement of using Triple A is in my view a short term one. The J41 sim is due to be relocated to Humberside and any sim checks will probably be done there instead.

However this new scheme is putting good people off from applying. Eastern
seem to prefer the more mature 'self-improver' pilot who will stay for that bit longer. However this scheme is more of a hurdle for them than it is for someone who is young who can afford to uproot himself/herself at short notice without thinking how they are going to support their family when they are away. That is assuming that the easiest way for many to 'drop their tools' for 3 weeks is to apply for unpaid leave!

I would recommend Eastern as a good solid first job. The whole J41 setup was inherited from BACX and many including myself were trained by BACX and Eastern still use all the SOPs that were previously used so standardisation and training (which is now done in house) are all good.

cavortingcheetah:

I agree that the sum of £15k is absurd for a primitive little machine such as a J41 or even the half glass Saab 2000.

Ok maybe £15,000 might be a bit steep but what are all the other turboprop operators bonding you for? It is industry average I am afraid! The J41 is not in a sub turboprop category and it is far from primitive! It is interesting to note that the J41 was the fastest prop in the market before the D328, DHC8-Q400 and the S2000 came onto the market. It is modern and it is a good grounding and the jet I fly now is straight forward compared to the J41! The Saab 2000 is actually a full glass machine - not to confused with the Saab 340, which is completely different. In fact I have been told that some of the computer logic in the Saab 2000 is on a par if not slightly more complex than the Airbus!

[The Red Max]

Airlines are not to blame for wanting to cut training costs in order to return a profit for their shareholders. The reason they are able to do this is because the job market is saturated with inexperienced pilots all desperate for their first big break. I think a lot of the responsibility lies not with airlines but with the salesmen/women at commercial schools who make grand statements of imminent pilot shortages in order to get bums on seats (or in airplanes).

[cavortingcheetah]

:) Mister Geezer,

I enjoyed your letter. My apologies for my Saab confusion; you are quite right about the 2000.
I suppose that the acid test for the career path return of the aircraft one flies is how much that type is held in esteem by those who run the jet carriers' interview panels. It seems to me that Eastern have set their own entry criteria and, willy nilly, if an aspiring pilot wants a job with them he will have to comply.
I doubt that the long term results of such a policy will do the company too much good if an aviation upswing really does come into being.:sad:

[Thrush]

Who takes 200 hour pilots? I can think of BA, BMI, Monarch, Excel, Easyjet, Thomas Cook, Britannia, BACX, Flybe, etc etc. So don't think no-one will take low hours!

BUT a new jet F/O would take far less training if he'd done 2 years on a J41 - a good airplane to get some time in and "get your knees brown". A much better "poler" in the end. All the above please note.

Have faith......... You'll all get there in the end.

PS When I was at Manx we were bonded for £8K on the very same J41s....... Not too long ago! Can't quite figure out where the £15K comes from (same sim, same base training, CBT probably now and no accomodation on IOM!)

[european champion]

Anyone who believes that pilots should not pay for ratings think of this first.Whats costs more,not paying for rating and staying unemployed for 1-2 years or paying for rating and earning salary afterwards?Its just simple mathematics,anybody who knows the basics in mathematics can understand it.

[Longchop]

Its NOT a good deal!

The 170 quid isnt too much so thats not bad but working for 3 weeks without pay is not good. Its certainly on parr with Ryanair without a doubt!

Im not slating Eastern as I know a lot of people who work for them and theyre all great people. But on here there seems to be too many people saying things that would make you think Eastern is the wannabe's dream! Its not! Im sure things have changed now but i have never come across such an arrogant and ignorant c**t as what their ops director(CH) was in the old days.

A 15k bond on the J41 is ridiculous! Its done to stop you leaving.Simple as that.Good management style?


If you need to do it to get your firsy job then go for it. But when it comes down to it, Its NOT a good deal!!

btw, I was offered a job with Eastern when you didnt work for free. ;)



Anyone who believes that pilots should not pay for ratings think of this first.Whats costs more,not paying for rating and staying unemployed for 1-2 years or paying for rating and earning salary afterwards?Its just simple mathematics,anybody who knows the basics in mathematics can understand it.

True in the Eastern case but NOT true when it comes to buying TRs without a job offer.

[Impressive_Wingspan]

You are not paying for a type rating, you are entering into an agreement whereby if YOU choose to leave the company then YOU have to pay the remainder of the loan outstanding. FlyBe, Jet2, Easyjet all do it this way, except when you join Easyjet as a low houred guy it's £6K+? CASH UPFRONT for a jet handling course, with NO job if you don't come up with the goods in the sim at CTC, and then you work for not alot for six months etc etc. Are you complainants mental, I really cannot see your problem. I know a young lady who has recently joined with low hours and is doing stacks of flying out of Manch, scheduled routes and getting some very good experience on an EFIS turboprop. Been said already but you could go anywhere with a few years and a few thousand hours under your belt.

I have to be frank if some of the nonsense being posted in this thread is anything to go by i'm not surprised that they are going down the 3 week unpaid for the the groundschool road. They've probably been bitten and this gives them a getout in the event of whinging or blatant muppetry!!! I would have licked piss off a thistle to get into Eastern when i passed my IR and had no experience (think they were Kilroe back then though). Come on guys, £170 squid and 3 weeks, not alot is it, at the very least shows a willing on your part!!

And sorry Longchop but it is nowhere near on a parr with Ryanair, how on earth do you come up with that. You have to pay for your 73 rating with NO GUARANTEE AT ALL with FR, do the course (without pay) and probably pick up the tab for HOTAC, travel and an endless list of extra's. Eastern = £170 and no pay for 3 weeks, i suggest a rethink on that.

[Longchop]

And sorry Longchop but it is nowhere near on a parr with Ryanair, how on earth do you come up with that. You have to pay for your 73 rating with NO GUARANTEE AT ALL with FR, do the course (without pay) and probably pick up the tab for HOTAC, travel and an endless list of extra's. Eastern = £170 and no pay for 3 weeks, i suggest a rethink on that.


Its a crap deal....simple as!!

Work for free for 3 weeks?????? errrr ok!!:ugh: Put me on the list and i'll join up too!!!:confused:

[flybyshark]

Personally, as an opportunity it is not to be missed.


BUT, I agree that the deal is not good. Its not geared at wannabe workers, people with commitments like mortgages and families or even to their current job.


These are the people that will at the end of the day give Eastern their commitment rather than a footloose and fancy free wannabe that can stand to be without a wage or doesnt have the constraint of possbily losing their job over the chance to attend the ground school.


Within two years they will be gone, dont think a bond will stop them writing a chegue to Eastern and departing with a cheery smile to a jet operator!

I think there is a lot of chinese whispers going on here, it just doesnt sound right!

Fair enough, pay for the sim check, fair enough be bonded, but to be expected to drop everything and come running saying hi-ho silver without any form of commitment from Eastern is nonsense!

The other reason why I wonder at the ethos behind it is the 'chinese whispers' now, are that the J41 is being phased out this year.............


So what happens then?

Another Bond?


Eastern is a company on my short list to work for, which is why this whole thread has me scratching my head and wondering who actually has the facts.

[Impressive_Wingspan]

I didn't say it was a good deal Longchop, just said it wasn't as bad as some deals on offer at the moment. I flew with one F/O last month who spent a fortune buying a rating and hours which has eventually got him a jet job. There are people out there who are willing to do this, and in current times where airlines are trying to reduce costs and these poeple exist, they will take full advantage.

I agree entirely with the last post, not geared to people with commitments, but anyone considering Eastern should look beyond the £170 and three week groundschool. How many pilots have First Choice and the like just taken from Eastern, my source says quite a few. Do your three weeks and get some good experience, then join the sort of operator who won't ask you to dig deep for a JOC course or type rating and will pay you from day one. It seems the least costly option to me whilst getting experience. SCAM it isn't, and i've looked on the Eastern website Longchop but can't see anything about £50 to apply:confused:

[Longchop]

I didn't say it was a good deal Longchop, just said it wasn't as bad as some deals on offer at the moment.


Quite true. Its a bad deal! Simple as!!

SCAM it isn't, and i've looked on the Eastern website Longchop but can't see anything about £50 to apply:confused:

Anyone who asks you to pay for your sim check and then work for free without commitment is still in the same league as Ryanair. They might not charge fifty quid but theyre no angels!:rolleyes:

Eastern dont offer the perfect package and therefore i fail to see how they can justify this! The pay isnt massive amounts and the J41 isnt anything special compared to the Saab or the Dash or even the ATRs!

If this is what the market has forced then I wouldnt deter anyone from doing it. Take it if you need the first job. I feel we'd all be better off if we didnt apply to the airlines who take liberties! I for one have never applied to Ryanair or Astreus, in the 2 years I have had a license! I will hold out till i get a job in which the airline pays for my TR!

Maybe i have this opinion because my airline paid for me from day one of the conversion course. My bond is 10k reducing on a very well respected TP and it is reducing over 3 years.

[Sean Dillon]

I fly a modern turbo-prop at the moment on what is probably the best, exciting and most challenging routes in the UK turbo-prop sector. And I wouldn't have swapped the experience i'm gaining for anything, it has, with out doubt, set me up in terms of skills, confidence and experience for my next step onto jet aircraft and probably the rest of my career.

I have to say, some of the comments i've read on here, I also am totally NOT suprised Eastern Airways have gone down this route if this is an example of some of the attitudes that the Eastern line trainers/managers have to put up with - some of you guys need to accept the UK industry in the 21st century or remain out of work or stay a career instructor!

This sector of the UK market place is aimed at FI's with some flying experience or 200 hours chaps with NO experience - in short, both have NO commercial experience or Multi-Crew time, and this is not something that comes with a Frozen ATPL, some just won't get it! It's been proved, I know Eastern Airways chopped a few guys last year because they simply didn't make the grade, maybe in both flying skills and personality (in one case!). In short, your an unknown, a risk!

Airlines, also in this sector don't make MEGA bucks, a summers profit can be wiped out by a heavy winter de-icing aircraft!. So the Flight Deck work force are one of the airlines most expensive commodities, and as it's no different to any other business, they will do what they have to do to save money.

A sim ride on the Frasca with Mike Briggs is pretty much a waste of time to a certain degree due to the nature of the FNPTI and Mike Briggs will only be assessing you on your scan and general ability, he certainly doesn't have the experience to assess whether you'll be a good multi-crew pilot! But better the airline find out now that you can't hold anything straight and level before your sat in a J41 sim in Washington! I totally agree the 3 week unpaid course is a bit far fetched, but what they are doing is finding the right guys for them. They'll will be assessing your personality from the moment you walk in to the room to determine that "yep, he's someone who will have good CRM and who i'd like to spend a 6 sector day with". This could easily be assessed in 4 days I grant you and they could have coughed up maybe expenses at the very least.

Yes, they are exploiting the fact that new licence issued guys and gals are going to be desperate to get on the ladder, but they are aware that it will be an apprecticeship for most and 85% of new entrants this year will move on within the next 12-24 months and at the end of the day, they do have a business to run and that is the same for any airline. In short, if you don't like it, don't apply!!! No-one owes you a living!

This is the best flying your ever going to get, the experience is second to none. Lots of handling, lots of sectors and all sat in the worst weather! It beats working for a living guys, but I guess sending CV's out every week it just as much fun too!!!

[sparepart]

Actually, the sim is only used for low houred pilots or those with no recency.

The no-pay groundschool is only used for pilots who cannot present a reliable referee and are therefore completely unknown quantities. Apparently used very occasionally.

Only one has failed: he was on my course. Good decision Eastern!

Apart from a sim (if you need one) you pay nothing.

To add my accolades - a great company to work for. but they don't put up with dross.

[flightbag]

Well said Sparepart!

Nuff said.

Bored now.

[Longchop]

Agreed....The wrong info was posted on here which me up the wrong path......apologies Eastern!



Bored too!:zzz:

[flybyshark]

I just received an email from Eastern outlining the recruitment process.

Its exactly as Spareparts says it is, they even cover B&B expenses on the ground course should you follow that route.

Four pages of blarney here, because of a rant over the wrong info.

[Aerofoil]

Hi

I may have a job interview with Eastern Airways soon. I was wondering if anyone could tell me anything and everything about what sort of questions im likely to be asked?

Any tech questions? If so such as?

Many thanks

From a stressed

Foil

[Aerofoil]

Please can anyone help??

Im very desperate!

Thanks again

Foil

[scroggs]

A search for 'Interview' would have given you these (http://www.pprune.org/forums/search.php?searchid=148829)results, which you would have had 10 hours to peruse had you done the search before you posted today. There may not be any results for Eastern (but there might be, I haven't looked), but there is an awful lot of airline interview information.

Search is a very powerful tool. Use it.

Scroggs

[Jinkster]

aerofoil is that for flight deck? or ops?

[jaarrgh]

Had one last year. All very relaxed, one on one with the big cheese. lasted maybe 30-40 minutes. Very nice and reasonable guy. There were no tricks or tests. He seemed genuinely interested in your background and what you were about. Would suit a good honest candidate. good luck.

[YYZ]

Been told it is changing? to what I don't know.
But was a relaxed interview, without tech questions, if your face fits then you should be OK?

But then, it is changing?

YYZ

[pipertommy]

Hi all,just a quick one.Does this airline recruit for individual bases or is it across the board and go where you are sent,set up?

[IMC007]

Hi Pipertommy

I got a letter from them the other day stating that they are not recruiting aircrew this year and that I should try next year if still looking for a position.

[pipertommy]

Cheers.Was that for a particular base or in general.

[IMC007]

No That was just general as a result of sending in a CV.

[Jinkster]

I've sent in my CV and all I had was an email saying thanks!!

I thought eastern was expanding!

[Mister Geezer]

They are expanding, however you have received the bog standard letter acknowledging your CV.

As for not doing any more recruitment this year - I would take that with a pinch of salt if I were you!!!

Does this airline recruit for individual bases or is it across the board and go where you are sent,set up?

It depends on where you live to be honest. If you live close to one of their existing bases then probably a good chance you will get it. Especially if you live in Wick since they would probably bite your arm off! :) Otherwise if you don't stay near an Eastern base then you have got to show a degree of flexibility - ouch... that could mean the Isle of Man!!! :}

[Jinkster]

Waitrose Sea Salt!!!

[pipertommy]

Thanks Mister Geezer!:ok:

[Spartacan]

>>that could mean the Isle of Man!!! <<

Thought provoking. I am thinking of moving to the Isle of Man with heavy jet experience and have been looking at the airlines operating from the Island. I want to downsize and have a more pleasant life. What is the lifestyle like on the Jetstream with Eastern? Is it a popular base? Is it a pleasant company culture???

Comments welcomed Ladies and Gentleman

[Professor Fog]

I got a letter from them the other day stating that they are not recruiting aircrew this year and that I should try next year if still looking for a position.

this is absolute crap, they are losing pilots hand over fist !!! lots of guys are moving on to bigger and better things

[Computer says NO!]

Pipertommy,as the above replies suggest, you could be asked to go anywhere. However, Eastern have just opened up a new base in Cardiff which may suit you in the future!!

Prof Fog, totally agree, its going to be a busy summer for us all with all these new routes starting. Who told you that IMC007, are they for real??

Spartacan, J41 is a nice piece of kit with some half decent EFIS up front, although probably not as nice as you've been used to!!:}

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

I hear that to get in at Eastern, you most likely need to know someone who works there. Any insiders have an idea of what they tend to go for?

[Spartacan]

>>J41 is a nice piece of kit with some half decent EFIS <<

Hmmm. Many moons ago I flew the original Scottish Aviation T Mk 1 whch was described as 'thirty thousand micro switches in formation'.

I'm more interested to learn of roster patterns, days off, annual hours, bonding and the standard of training.

[Mister Geezer]

Spartacan

I no longer work for Eastern but might be able to shed a little light of the facts.

Roster Patterns
There was no such thing when I was there but it can vary from base to base depending on how much weekend flying is done at that base. Most days off will fall around the weekend since this is when a lot of the fleet is sitting around doing nothing.

Annual Hours
I have heard of some skippers touching 900hrs which used to be unheard of, however the hours flown will probably vary from base to base. If you are planning on a left seat position then expect to be worked reasonably hard.

Bonding and the Standard of Training
The bonding system has changed since I was there so I would not be the best person to advise you on the latest details regarding this.

Training was very good but I can only comment on the J41 since that is what I flew. I was trained by BACX but now all the training is done in house but by all accounts the standards have been kept at a high standard. TRI/Es are a very good bunch and very practical with their approach to the job. Line trainers when I was there did a good job to keep standardisation reasonably good on the line. I could not fault my type course nor recurrent checks/training.

[Spartacan]

Thanks Mister Geezer. I have a young family so light weekends and lack of night flights is most attractive. High standards are a draw too. Not too sure how long I could keep up 900 hours a year due to receding hairline racing towards advancing grey temples . . .

A few more bridges to cross before I send a CV.

Cheers.

[WX Man]

Anyone know what a typical FO starter at Eastern has in the way of experience?

Also, to whom does one address CVs?

Any info on pay and bases would be nice as well.

[sicky]

You'll find most of that at www.ppjn.com :)

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Sue Parkinson is the recruitment coordinator (or something to that effect)

First base is likely to be Aberdeen. Newcastle is another big one. After that it's East Midlands, Hawarden, Humberside, Inverness, Manchester, Norwich, Durham tees Valley, Leeds Bradford, Isle of man, Wick (but all pretty small bases).

Everybody I have met from Eastern has been very friendly, they're probably a great first company to work for. You need to somehow convince them that you are committed to live in Aberdeen for a while though. The office is in Humberside.

If you start on the smaller Jetstream you are likely to be on around 20k plus flight pay (23k total). Not a lot of dough but good experience.

P

[Canada Goose]

Is Harwden really a base ? If you look on the Eastern website it doesn't show any routes flying from there !

[Cpt. Chaos]

Hawarden is a base, it shares crew from Manchester.

They do a couple of flights to Filton for Airbus every week day. :mad:

[Canada Goose]

Thanks for clearing that matter up Cpt. Chaos. I did wonder how Harwden fitted into the picture.

Guess Eastern should consider renaming to Western ;)

CG.

[Phileas Fogg]

Eastern picked up the Hawarden/Filton contract from BAe J31's cos BAe couldn't organise a pee up in a brewery and insisted upon rostering crews on either split duties and/or minimum minimum rest periods thus any delays one day impacted a X2 delay the next day.

[pipertommy]

Is there anyone on here who knows the future set up for the Cardiff base?ie crew numbers?And will there be any plans to base more than the one J41 here?Any info would be great.Thanks

[pipertommy]

No one know anything:uhoh:

[flightbag]

I believe they are looking to put 2-3 aircraft in at Cardiff, but as with all things Eastern you can never rely on "plans".

For anyone looking to join them, I would completely ignore any info about them not recruiting this year. The truth is they are nearly always short of crews, as they have been expanding and loosing people to bigger outfits. However, they have recently pulled the J41 out of MAN, NWI, and I have heard HUY as well, so they may have a little slack until those crews leave rather than relocate on turboprop pay to the other end of the UK.

Best advice is to keep sending regular updates of your experience to Steve Jenkins who runs the hiring side of things now. If you can get a recommendation all the better, but don't expect a quick response, as there is very little method in the madness of selection.

[pipertommy]

Thanks Flightbag!!Another two would be excellent!!

[Globalwarning]

Best advise for eastern is try really hard to find another job first. they are so clueless about pilot recruitment that he reckons pilots should do a stint as Cabin Crew or in Ops before being identified as a "good chap" worthy of the RHS.

additionally, I gather he makes people pay for the FNPT2 Sim during the job interview! Ha ha this is eastern airways for the RHS of a J41 on the worst T+C's....come on. :D

good luck guys and girls... by all means go for eastern but know what your getting into. Taking this job could cost you big £ in the long term!

[Kiltie]

The stint as Cabin Crew is used very infrequently for pilots with no recognisable referees or track record. Where most employers would otherwise turn candidates away, Eastern offer the recipients a ‘foot in the door’. The individuals also constitute an effective Holding Pool WITH a salary. The facility also allows pilots to have a close look at Eastern before they commit to a Bond. They have a 100% success rate when they have employed this facility.

Regarding their recruitment process, they have recently taken on experienced pilots (Captains) from Flybe, BMI, Netjets, Jet 2 and Monarch.

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

So, what would motivate Captains from the above airlines to join Eastern? From people I know who have worked there Eastern, means lots of hours, relatively poor pay and unstable rosters. Am I missing something?

[Kiltie]

To be frank, yes.

Eastern's business model gives the opportunity for recruits to enjoy a lifestyle of having most weekends and bank holidays off. Their wide national base structure allows most of their crews to be based close to where they want to live. They are also home most nights and rarely work past 10pm.

Some of their pilots with experience of larger aircraft and higher salaries have considered their options and seen great value in the above personal benefits.

I can see how wannabies would dismiss smaller turboprops in favour of Boeings, however once you have been round the block in this industry you realise there are not as many stereotypical pilots chasing big jets as you had originally thought.

What value lifestyle? That is a question only the individual can answer after considering his or her circumstances.

[Toastal]

Keltie, tell me, what is the secret about trying to get into East Flite? I have applied several times, expressing an interest in Scotland (where no one apparently wants to be based). I have many friends in the company, but it just doesn't seem to cut the mustard! The replies I get from the wee man say different things every other month. Your views??:sad:

[duir]

Here here Toastal same thing for me. Based at one of there Northern bases and recommended to management by captain but no response.

[Kiltie]

Whilst both of you state you want to be based in Scotland; this doesn't "create" a position for you. There is no "secret" to getting in to Eastern Airways. Recruitment, like any other airline, is geared around company crew establishment requirements on an ongoing basis.

I wish you the best of luck if you wish to continue applying to Eastern Airways for work. Persistence may pay off so don't give up!

Duir it would be naive of the company to recruit on personal recommendation alone. Factors such as experience must also be considered. Having friends who already work for Eastern is of course a benefit but not a certainty of a job offer. Don't be disheartened though.

Toastal with the greatest of respect I doubt your application would be taken seriously if you can't get the airline's name correct. Don't believe any of the rubbish about nobody wants to be based in Scotland. Scotland is no more difficult to crew than any other location. And who is Keltie?

Pipertommy if you want a response try deleting some of your stored PMs.

[desk_bound]

Hey guys I am an older type looking for my first job to get away from this horrid :mad: :mad: desk........will fly for food from any base and to be honest if Eastern offered me a job I would most likely stay with them and not run of to a brash Mr Boeing or sexy Madam Airbus...GOD I HATE THIS DESK!!!!!!!!

[Cactus99]

Desk bound, Im afraid you will have to join a very long queue indeed for that first job!!

It would seem that Globalwarming has a rather large axe to grind!! Oh dear:=

[desk_bound]

Well I must be moving up the queue I have had my fATPL for a while now....is that light at the end of the tunnel or train comming towards me!!
I know getting a job in this industry is all about..who you know and not what you know...being in the right place at the right time... and waiting for the food chain to move which it would appear to be doing now. I only hope that the likes of Eastern keep up the good work and employing us older modular types. KEEP IT UP EASTERN......and I am in a pile cv's on someones desk there!!!!! lol:) :ugh: :ok:

[Toastal]

KILTIE,

Sorry if I ruffled your sporran, there was absolutely no intention, and the info I received about Scottish bases may well be incorrect. A person should in no way expect automatic employment because they have a certain post code, i'm not saying that. I also agree that personal recs alone are not enough to secure a job. What I am saying however is that there is no rhyme or reason to the recruitment policy. I have had several pleasant, encouraging e-mails from HQ. When I address my currency, re-newals, build hours etc etc, the correspondant changes the goal posts. I know they're a good outfit, and I would be very keen to work for them. I guess there's a fine line between showing keeness and being a pain in the arse.

With reference to East Flite, I was just using their caller handle, much and such the same as "Pig Pen" and "Rubber Ducky" :O

[GMIMA]

eastern is a good airline to work for. I can assure you that there a lot of peoples cv arriving on the ops managers desk from scotland, so therefore quite a few people want to be in scotland... the iom another matter lol

[Globalwarning]

Kiltie, taking on Captains from Monarch, BMI, etc sounds great but these are guys whom have retired from the majors. I gather an Eastern Captain earns far less than a Monarch First Officer (circa £50 000p.a)

Make no mistake every airline has its problems; Eastern could be a world beater of a company to work for if only they managed the Airline in a sane and sustainable way :ok: I gather it is going from bad to worse in various Pilot related departments.

[sparepart]

Actually boys, I think all of the above is tosh. When I worked for Eastern it was very friendly and I'm told its the same now. They don't put up with tossers though. Standards were high and still are, which is why they are attractive to the jetset. Very few pilots got anywhere near 900 hrs, except in ABZ when several FOs failed their Command Conversions and the existing captains had to put the hours in. I think they have a recruitment tickover but thousands of applicants. Rumour has it they are taking on experienced jet jocks who want to return to being pilots rather than autopilot monitors, get home at weekends, enjoy high standards and pride in customer care. Tand C were average for turboprop ops. Overall, good bunch. The bad press you may see on Prune usually emanates from the aforementioned.

[sparepart]

Before you have a pop at eastern again Global, you ought to know that all their pilot managers fly regularly, they don't have a seperate recruitment department or even PAs. The whole HR department is two people! If you've had acknowledgement of your CV you should be grateful: you don't even get a response from much bigger airlines! I agree with Kiltie: I know Eastern have thousands of applicants and its a case of right place - right time. They do place great emphasis on recruiting nice people which is why it is such a friendly company. Rumour has it that the whinging minority have left or are leaving. The few that are left can't get jobs elsewhere presumably.

[Computer says NO!]

Well said sparepart, I can second that. Global was either one of the whinging few or was turned down by them at some point. I know quite a few who have returned from the "Not so rosy" jet job life.

Eastern have opened the door for many into this industry.:D

[3legs]

Anyone know if Eastern are wanting IOM based crew...Just passed my IR 2 weeks ago!! Still waiting for the MCC!!!....:ugh:

Thanks

3legs
:ok:

[ATIS31]

Sorry if this is in the wrong place but its a Eastern thread.
I heard a rumor that the Jetstream31/32 are leaving the fleet does anyone know if this is true and if it is when this will happen ?

[cavortingcheetah]

:)

When the head man at Eastern started up, one of his prime concerns was to be able to visit each base ona regular basis and operate his airline morale ethos with a very hands on and caring approach. I would imagine that this would be a little hard for RL to achieve these days, given the company's expansion. However, I have no doubt that the man's principles remain the same and that Eastern is still a pretty friendly company for which to work, It does of course have one great advantage over some other airlines in that its fleet is all small turb prop. There 'should' be little of the in house jealousy one so often finds with other carriers as to who is going to move on to the jet tractor, for instance.
Eastern must loose their J31/32s and I would have thought that this would hapen sooner rather than later given the fact that in suburban aviaton the J31/32 seems to be the flavour of the month and thus presumably fairly easily off loaded.
There is a very strong rumour going some rounds that Eastern may more or less pull out of NWI. They are taking a winged battering from Flybe. If they end up only running MAN from there, look for a J31/32 at NWI but I would expect that to be about it.
Rumour control over and out.:)

[Kiltie]

The J32 operation at Eastern Airways is now confined to one base, Wick, operating ABZ, SYY and occasionally NCL. The fleet has been reduced somewhat through airframe sell-offs but there are no apparent plans this year to remove them completely. Three still exist in the fleet.

[BSc]

I just had to add something to this discussion! I am currently flight crew with EA, and I talk to collegues daily who would back up what I say.

Eastern is a friendly company and only has a good standard thanks to the professional attitude of most of its crews who work extremely hard for no bonus, pension or even decent pay. We have no rostering agreement, no BALPA representation and no say!! It is a great company with which to get experience but then so is flybe, scotair, euromanx etc etc


Before you have a pop at eastern again Global, you ought to know that all their pilot managers fly regularly

Reality - they only fly because we are desperate for captains. Then when you do have the misfortune, they whinge because they are so tired after 2 whole days of work. Try 6 lates, 2 days off then 5 earlies, repeat, repeat, repeat!

They place great emphasis on recruiting nice people

Reality - They place great emphasis on recruiting nice people who are prepared to be messed around, accept changes and not complain ie please don't be an individual, we only want clones! (I recommended a pilot friend to the recruitment manager who did not ask me one question about their experience, hours etc - I think that says everything!)

The stint as Cabin Crew is used very infrequently for pilots with no recognisable referees or track record.

Reality - This is very much standard, especially a stint in Ops! Oh and the salary is approx £11k with which you pay your mortgage and support your large family!

Actually boys, I think all of the above is tosh. When I worked for Eastern it was very friendly...

Reality - Well you don't now and whatever century you did it is not the current reality. We not only have young guys leaving to go to the jets, but also our most experienced have had enough (I include well respected trainers who are fed up beating their heads against brick walls)

I feel sorry for the new guys out there who do just want that first job, we were all there once. But please, please know what you are getting into before you make the jump! It might just be better to invest a bit more and get that 737 rating. The low costs are recuriting and they have more to offer in the long term. Be prepared to work hard, but at least you pay off those debts!

Do I sound cynical? Well I wasn't when I started out!

[Kiltie]

The stint as Cabin Crew is used very infrequently for pilots with no recognisable referees or track record.

Reality - This is very much standard, especially a stint in Ops! Oh and the salary is approx £11k with which you pay your mortgage and support your large family!


BSc you are either misinformed or have joined the band of negative whingers; the majority of new recruits over the last twelve months have gone straight to ground school because they have provided a recognisable reference or have a proven track record or recommendation. It is only the minority who have agreed to go down the Ops / cabin crew route. Emphasis placed on "agreed". Nobody is forcing those few to accept this deal.

This is your first airline job isn't it BSc?! If Eastern's not for you, off you go then. Come back and tell us how much better other employers are out there:rolleyes: .

[BSc]

[QUOTE=Kiltie]

It is a shame that our busy mangagers have so much time on their hands!

[Kiltie]

JENKINS there is no attempt being made here to disguise my identity as you suggest. That's because I stand by everything I post on these forums.

BSc if you feel as strongly as you imply that your managers are not working hard enough for you I would voice your concerns to the MD.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Seems to me that Jenkins his his ear close to the ground. (1731:ooh: )

It seems inconceivable that the attrition rate amongst the younger Eastern pilots of both ranks moving to bigger things is not high.
Management pilots would presumably have to travel and night stop to fill in command flying roster slots? This might not sit so well on those who had thought that Humberside would be a pleasant and steady alternative to the appalling situation of six lates, two tawdry days off followed by five earlies in endless grinding procession. Hardly, if the case, a situation that would make them happy, especially if positioning time before a duty period were ignored as being duty time!
The comments most frequently enountered from Eastern pilots who have been with the company for some time are: 'It is not the way it used to be,' coupled with the remark that certain elements of management are locked in to doing things in only one rigid and strict way.
I fear that the 'look back in wistful longing' is something which comes to all airline pilots with every company at some point or another. However, even were such the case, it would perhaps be a pity to ignore potential input from experienced pilots who have flown for other carriers in the past and whose only interest, presumably, is to keep their heads down and enjoy the sort of hands on flying that goes hand in glove with an operator such as Eastern.
If you have a situation where, hypothically speaking of course, the experience of senior pilots is ignored and feedback discouraged combined with a high turnover of less qualified aviators who look to move onwards then crew discontent must be very high indeed throughout the ranks.
Whilst recruitees are enjoying the present aviation boom, grumbling will be manifest. Once the boom dies down, as it will, the company will be back in the situation where all pilots are locked in with nowhere to go. If this is the sort of cycle Eastern wants, it only has to tough it out for a year or so to find itself back in the pilot pound seats. Grumbling will, of course, still be manifest!
At the moment there seems to be little shortage of First Officer materiel. I somehow doubt too that there is a dirth of Captains out there. But there may well exist a paucity of recruitable Commanders who do not pose a perceived threat to management because of their greater familiarity and experience with airline operations?:hmm:

[Globalwarning]

I think Kiltie is on the wrong track- People seem to accept that the managers work hard but rather not smartly enough. The operational platform at Eastern is allegedly very porous and engaged in constant fire fighting. Perhaps this is because MD Lake does not seek to empower the right people??

Kiltie- Are you saying you are Jenkins? If so I gather from a mate in Aberdeen that you are at the epicenter of the problem?:confused:

[JB007]

These same views and problems are identical in every Regional/TP Airline in the UK. This is bottom of the food-chain stuff....enjoy it while you can, it's amazing flying....

[Kiltie]

Globalwarning I was referring to JENKINS who made a post on this forum today but has since removed it.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Perhaps it would help the training turnover in carriers such as Eastern if they no longer employed Wannabees as flight crew at all.
Possibly these turgid companies should only employ Captains, Retirees with a lot of experience, of whom some were then designated Commanders.
It might lead to a rather more stable flight deck work force?:)

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

.....a rather more expensive one too!

[Blackcoffeenosugar]

Just spoke to a friend of mine that used to work for EA, and he left when RL told him at a company party that: "the work force at EA is so stable because he only employs people who can't get jobs else were" :eek: ??

[cavortingcheetah]

:)

That's excellent news that might well be taken as a sort of back handed compliment on the part of some who might still aspire to the dizzy heights of eastern promise!;)

[WX Man]

Just spoke to a friend of mine that used to work for EA, and he left when RL told him at a company party that: "the work force at EA is so stable because he only employs people who can't get jobs else were" ??

In that case, why aren't I working for them?!!!!! :}

[tocken]

there seems to be a lot of negativity regarding Eastern. I am flight crew with EA and enjoy every minute of it.I most certainly agree that the salary and the overall package could be better but the flying is good, the people are great, management are approachable and helpful and the working week is as "normal" as can be expected in aviation terms.The disgruntled whingers at Eastern are 90% individuals who have always been in aviation and to be frank don't know what real work is!!

EA know that they will lose pilots to bigger carriers becaues they know that the training they give is of a high standard and also they are aware that they will always be a stepping stone because of the package they offer which is a shame.

My advice to anybody targeting EA is to keep trying, flying wise you wont be disappionted. It's better than digging holes

[Toastal]

No offence m8, but there are a lot of "Whingers" out there, some of whom have invested a lot of money in their pilot training, about 6 yrs cabin crew salary to be exact!!!

T:suspect:

[Computer says NO!]

Agreed,

This job, and company, would be a much better place without the whingers. If you dont like it then leave!! There are plenty people to replace you.

But just remember one thing, there are many people out there who would love to have a job flying an EFIS TP for a regional airline. You were there once.

Go and piss on someone elses fire, not ours!! :*

[tocken]

No offence m8, but there are a lot of "Whingers" out there, some of whom have invested a lot of money in their pilot training, about 6 yrs cabin crew salary to be exact!!!
T:suspect:
Toastal I don't know whether or not I gave the impression I am Cabin Crew, apologies if I did, I am actually flight deck crew. I too am one of the self sponsered variety, all savings exhausted, sold everything that wasn't nailed down, atpl's distance learning whilst working full time, Ive been through the mill with all the rest of them. It will take me a while to receive a return on the investment, the tears,sweat and pain will never be compensated but working for Eastern is a kind of therapy.
All I'm saying is don't moan about being in a privileged position getting paid to play with aeroplanes at a time when companies are nostril deep in C.V's.
some people have more cheek than glass blowers

[sparepart]

Globalwarning! I know I am a newboy on Prune but I am already tiring of the whingers. "Management working two days a week? " The pilot managers I saw at eastern (and there was only two or three) worked their parts off. Your mate in ABZ is probably disaffected. He's not the guy who told Eastern to 'make him a captain or he'd resign' is he? Hopefully he didn't get a command. I was always well looked after, but I know thyere were a few pilots there who thought they had a divine right to command, used sickies liberally and shafted their mates. I vote for managers who don't put up with it. As Kiltie says, if they don't like it why don't they go elsewhere? Can't get another job perhaps?

[GMIMA]

Eastern gave me a chance a couple of years back, to which i am extremly grateful!!!!! If it wasnt for eastern giving me a chance I would still be in my dead end job looking up thinking thats were i should be.

Since day one, eastern have been very good to me! I have no problems with them whatsoever, in terms of training they are brilliant. I actually enjoy my job :D

its very true, all our managers fly apart form one. even the ops director gets in there and gets his hands dirty!

Im not a company person in any way at all, but I grow tired of peoploe on here pulling the company apart....as many people have said on here!!!! dont like it then why are you still around????? the market is boyant at the moment.:ugh:

Eastern is having growing pains at the min, and it doesnt help with the high turnover of staff i.i people moving on to bigger and better things, but this will always happen at this level of flying.

[BaronBlue]

Hi all,

Can't find a great deal on the search function so wondering if anyone has any info on the interview questions asked etc.. heard its a relaxed 'chat' but wondering if anyone can put substance to that. Cheers!

[captainyonder]

What is the starting salary for RHS at Eastern? How much could I expect to take home every month?

[pipertommy]

Have a look on www.ppjn.com got loads of listings for various airline jobs:ok:

[pipertommy]

Have you seen on www.ppjn.com about new first officer`s having to work for NINE months as cabin crew??????????Tea madam? tea sir?

[MIKECR]

Thats bollocks, an ex work mate started there recently on the 41. Straight to TR, no cabin crew nonsense.

[Dr Eckener]

[QUOTE][New cabin crew are expected to work as FO's for 9 months to prove company loyalty. /QUOTE]

Or was it the other way round. Cheeky sods. That rules them out.

[Atomic Rooster]

So presumably they'll be paying FO wages and flight pay then for those 9 months - or are we just a cheap in-fill for CC before it is convenient for them to assume the role we've paid vast sums of money to exercise the priviledge of !!!

[holyflurkingschmitt]

Dear Dr & Atomic
Why not read the MIKECR post made before you?:confused:
It's on very rare occasions that new F/O's are asked if they would be willing to work cabin crew for 9 months and usually only when there are no F/O positions available at that time. I only of know of 2 people in 3 years!!!
I take my hat off to these guy's but at least there guaranteed a job!!! And more often than not they're pulled off C/C duties and on a TR course well before the 9 months due to the high turnover of staff we have.
So whilst most people are sending CV after CV these guy's will probably be flying a J41/Saab within 6 months!!
Each to there own i suppose
HFS:ok:

[Northern Highflyer]

A friend of mine at interview last year was asked if he would be willing to work as cabin crew until a pilot vacancy came up. Luckily he didn't have to do it and went straight onto the T/R.

[dreamingA380]

Just to back up MIKECR and keep this ppjn note in context, I’ve been with EA for 2 years and only very rarely are low houred wannabes offered either a stint as cabin crew or ops whilst waiting for a course start date. I can only think of a couple of guys doing this.
You might however be routinely asked in the interview if you'd be prepared to do this! So watch your answer! ;)
Best of luck

[planeshipcar]

I was really shocked to read on ppjn.com that Eastern Airway expects FOs to work as cabin crew for nine months. The last I heard they were going to charge for the type rating. Is this a replacement idea?

[planeshipcar]

I wouldn't mind doing this - if it means not forking out for a type rating I would apply as a starter job.

[MIKECR]

Theres already a thread on this subject. New FO's are not working as CC, and TR's are still bonded over 3 years.

[Kiltie]

Rest assured, Planeshipcar, both questions you ask are nonsense. Very occasionally prospective FOs are asked at interview if they would consider working in the cabin. This is only when there are no FO positions available at that immediate time. The candidates are given the option as an in-road to Eastern; most accept the offer when given and all have been successful in reaching the right seat within a year. We really are talking a tiny number of candidates here though. No-one is forced to go down this route!
The majority of new recruits go straight to type rating courses. There are no plans for Eastern to start charging for type ratings.

[Kiltie]

Very occasionally prospective FOs are asked at interview if they would consider working in the cabin. This is only when there are no FO positions available at that immediate time. The candidates are given the option as an in-road to Eastern; most accept the offer when given and all have been successful in reaching the right seat within a year. We really are talking a tiny number of candidates here though. No-one is forced to go down this route!

The majority of new recruits go straight to type rating courses. There are no plans for Eastern to start charging for type ratings.

[Mister Geezer]

Right folks

Can someone tell me why so many of you are so clearly turning your nose up at the thought of possibly working for a short spell as cabin crew before you jump into the right seat. If you think you are above that stage then I would make the harsh statement that you don't really really want an airline job.... do you - or else you would gladly accept the offer that leads to the right seat? Also what about all this 'team working' that you are supposed to get to grips with in your MCC course? Cabin crew are part of the team and by some of the postings... it seems as if some of us view cabin crew on a tier below ourselves! :\

In the days of the Gulf War and the general downturn in aviation, BA had cadets working as cabin crew. Now that they are in the flight deck means they have had the chance to witness what really happens 'down the back' and they are often regarded as being the best flight crew to work with from a cabin crew point of view!

I used to fly the J41 with Eastern and I regard my experience there as invaluable. Nice plane, very friendly crews, good training and robust SOPs create a sound introduction to airline flying. I regard my J41 experience as playing a fundamental part in helping me achieve such a quick command (year and a half) on the jet I now fly. Food for thought!!

[Piltdown Man]

What a bugger eh? Having a guaranteed job and type rating, get paid (got to eat some how!) and also get the experience of what it's like to work in the bit where those who pay your wages sit. Sounds like a reasonable deal to me and certainly better than Job Seekers Allowance.

PM

[Megaton]

Get real, guys. Early 90's BA sponsored cadets were offered the opportunity to either leave and find their own employment or stay as cc until better times. Guess who had the better time! It's not just Eastern who are doing this.

[Pilot Pete]

You have the choice....you can always turn the offer down. As pointed out, other airlines have done this before. Britannia did it in the late 90s.

PP

[skysoarer]

I worked as Cabin Crew for what is now Thomsonfly in 2002 for the Summer season. I can't see a better way to experience the working environment if the situation prevents a job in the front.

My reason for applying for it was to experience the same roster for starters. You can confirm that the lifestyle is for you (chatting to the crews to get opinions), whether you work in a team effectively, getting to know safety and emergency procedures on modern aircraft.

It gets you in there with a much lower risk method that didn't cost me a penny. Through doing this it nailed proper commercial flying as the career for me, and I had a bl00dy good time doing it (most of the time!).

From the perspective of eventual pilots working temporarily as cabin crew, just get in there. You will learn a lot of practical knowledge from it and you'll appreciate the efforts of the whole crew when you're in the front seat.

Sky

[MIKECR]

scratchingthesky,

I will; Any chance of a job when I finish my IR?? Whats Eastern current requirements for FO's? Would love to fly for them!

[MIKECR]

Thanks for the reply. Do they look for MCC aswell, and what sort of hours do you need to have? Sorry to bug you!

[MIKECR]

I know two guys very well that fly for them, one is a captain on the saab. Might have to pick his brains nearer finishing my IR.

[Mister Geezer]

scratchingthesky

Fact: A J32 FO left 18 months ago to Jet2 and is now a Captain on the 737

Nah... that is just Eastern 'flair'!!! Seriously though, I found myself in a similar situation since I left Eastern as a F/O on the J41 and moved airlines and I now fly the BAe146 and I got my command after just over a year online with no prior left seat or jet experience.(I might of just blown my PPRuNe cover to some that know me!!!) The experience gained at Eastern helped me to progress a lot quicker than I ever expected!

[Brucey]

Fact: A J32 FO left 18 months ago to Jet2 and is now a Captain on the 737

Just to correct the fact:

Two ex eastern F/O's have been at Jet2 less than two years and have both recently got commands on the 737.

Jet2 really like the Eastern product and are looking to take more as and when they can!!!

I know I work with both of them.

[Jay_solo]

Hello, I am looking to get in contact with any current or recent Eastern Airways Pilots, (or anyone who knows how the company operates). Basically I am interested in knowing what your work roster or schedule is like, as I see most of the flying is done on weekdays (M-F) giving time off on the weekends (depending on the base). You can PM me or reply here. I am about to complete my ATPL's and would like an insight into what the work schedule is like.
Thanks
:ok:

[Zoome]

Why don't you give them a call they are a great bunch of people. The wizard who taught me to fly had his first airline job with them on Jetstream 31's. It was an Eastern Airways Captain also who took me for my R/T.
Eastern kindly took my 15 year old son on work experience for a week .....ripping J41'S to bit's.
They fly every day of the week so bang goes your Saturday and Sunday mornings under the duvet!

[kalaharicharlie]

Eastern do fly 7 days a week but the flying over the weekend is limited compared to mon-fri so most days off still fall over the weekends. Rosters come out on the 15th for the following month but are subject to change although any days off that the company requests to be worked are paid for. Actual work schedule varies greatly depending on aircraft type and base.

[Cpt. Chaos]

All in all, they are not a bad company to work for. Far from it infact.
Yes they have their problems, but then which company doesn't, and it's that old saying, you can't please all the people all the time.
They have given me a chance, and are all nice and helpful people, they are more than willing to part with their knowledge when it comes to training, especially if you are low hours.
Give them a call and have a chat to them, if they can help they will. :ok:

[flightlevel550]

Anyone know any info on the technical assessment paper? How many questions, type etc.?

Thanks.

[MIKECR]

There isnt a paper(as far as i know), just an interview and sim check, with tripleA at Humberside.

[Cpt. Chaos]

There's no technical paper.
You may get asked a few technical questions in the interview and some procedural stuff and questions on R/T? There is a sim check at AAA
But with reference to my previous post, give them a chance, they are a great bunch, and a good laugh. :ok:

[flightlevel550]

I didn't explain properly, sorry. I received a letter today, explaining that there is an assessment day soon. Starting with a technical paper and a company lecture. Then if successful, an interview. If selected, you are then invited to self-sponsor for £12,500 through the company scheme.

[Atomic Rooster]

It seems ppjn could do with an update. No mention of self sponsoring your own TR on there ! Do they reimburse that over a set period or is the a cost entirely picked up by the individual ? :-(

[MIKECR]

flightlevel550,

Eastern are obviously starting a new application process by the sound of things. It was until recently just an interview and sim check. The self sponsored TR is a new thing as well, I did hear through the grape vine though that they'd be going down this route. Its a shame really as Eastern were one of the last few airlines who paid/bonded you for a TR. They must be getting cheesed off with people leaving I guess. I suppose you have to ask yourself whether your willing to pay for a j41 type or whether you pay that bit extra for a 737/a320 which might stand you in better stead.

[Northern Highflyer]

With the low starting salary, covering the TR costs is the least they could do. Will they be increasing salaries or making a monthly lump sum payment to cover the TR costs ?

[Canada Goose]

I've got to agree with Northern Flyer ! It may actually precipitate more early departure to higher paid positions with a 12.5k debt to service on a low salary - whcih I'm sure Eastern wouldn't want either !!

So, Cptn Chaos - do you know what the scoop is wrt the SSTR (or anyone else for that matter) ?

Cheers,
CG.

[Cpt. Chaos]

Well, this is knew. It's all news to me, sorry I can't help with the latest news.

I know it was mentioned but I did not think it would happen, for the reasons discussed. J41 - or - B737/A321 ?? :ugh:

Can't see it working or solving any problems, but who am I to question?

[FlatBroke]

Looks like they are indeed charging for type ratings.:ugh:

http://jals.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4828

[Mister Geezer]

Oh well... it's nothing like the good old days of a friendly chat with Chris Haysom! :}

[cavortingcheetah]

:ooh:

But there was a time, at the turn of the century, when one could have a friendly chat with RL himself! Perhaps a much more entertaining prospect?
The bottom line on shelling out for a J41/B737 conversion surely boils down to where, having spent the dollars, one is going to pick up the five hundred or so hours 'airline' experience? One could argue perhaps that a J41 type rating is pretty useless but that what one is really buying here is an entry ticket to multi crew flying? :D
Just another stepping stone on the road of slavery and bondage?:E

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

I've got to agree with Northern Flyer ! It may actually precipitate more early departure to higher paid positions with a 12.5k debt to service on a low salary - whcih I'm sure Eastern wouldn't want either !!


I don' think Eastern will give a stuff how many guys leave and how fast; as long as they can find someone to put in the right hand seat. They might even make some money out of their labour turnover, Ryanair have. And if you don't like Eastern what are you going to do then. Go get a nice paid for type rating with a jet operator? No, you'll be paying for another SSTR.

[topcat450]

:confused: So you pay for your own type rating, out of your own pocket - yet they still bond you (from the JALS link). For what exactly? If they've paid for my type rating - a bond is, I would say, reasonable - but if I've paid for my rating myself. S** Off. :}

[Cactus99]

Its very interesting looking at Flatbrokes link to the BGS site regarding the sponsorship:

"For an Application Form and Scheme details, state in you ownhandwriting, in 400 words, “What do you consider are the qualities expected in a Professional Pilot by a regional airline related to an assessment of your own abilities to satisfy them” --- apply to: Capt. M. P. Briggs, Triple ‘A’ Flying, The Flight House, Kirmington Vale, Barnetby, North Lincolnshire, DN38 6AF".

This is for Eastern Airways, but it seems that CAPTAIN Briggs :rolleyes: is doing the assesment here. Excuse me, but what does he know about flying for a regional airline and more particulary Eastern? Surely this should be done by the guys at Eastern, then the successfull candidates be passed to CAPTAIN Briggs!!

Something doesnt sound right to me here!!:sad:

[Northern Highflyer]

And if you don't like Eastern what are you going to do then. Go get a nice paid for type rating with a jet operator? No, you'll be paying for another SSTR.

With a company who will at least pay a living wage and / or a lump sum to help pay the cost of the TR back. (excluding a certain irish airline obviously) :hmm:

I don' think Eastern will give a stuff how many guys leave and how fast; as long as they can find someone to put in the right hand seat. They might even make some money out of their labour turnover, Ryanair have.

Sounds like the nail being hit well and truly on the head. :*

[windshear-a-head]

I'm sure Mike is more than capable of picking the right candidate for the job, having been trained by him I can say that his attitude toward flight training and ultimately a job with a regional or any airline, is second to none!

Plus you only need to go to the Triple A website, take a look under "news" to see how many pilots have gone there from the school...and so far it would seem Eastern are happy with them..so if it ain't broke...don't fix it!

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

Plus you only need to go to the Triple A website, take a look under "news" to see how many pilots have gone there from the school...and so far it would seem Eastern are happy with them..so if it ain't broke...don't fix it!
Sounds like Mr Briggs has got himself a sweet deal!

[Sean Dillon]

I'm sure Mike is more than capable of picking the right candidate for the job, having been trained by him I can say that his attitude toward flight training and ultimately a job with a regional or any airline, is second to none!

Still crying from laughing so hard! I would recommend anyone interested in this scheme to do ALOT of research on this school, the UK has more professional and value for money options available. And the list of dissatisfied students is more comprehensive than what's listed on AAA's website!

Please feel free to PM me for my personal experiences of doing a CPL at AAA. I won't list them here as Mr Briggs tends to threaten you with his big bruvva!

[JB007]

Are Eastern a TRTO? In which case, as they own the J41 sim, I guess it makes some buisness sense. Loganair started this last year too.

But the Triple 'A' thingy??!!! - Give me strength...I had the pleasure of Captain Briggs for a CPL, The Doctor said i've made good progress, i've stopped screaming at the sound of his name at least!!! Now it just makes me smile at FL380 - even in the middle of the night to Turkey!!!

Cheers
Richard:ok:

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

I considered training at Captain Briggs school. Then I read a thread on pprune called "Triple A = Triple the Cost" that detailed the owners eccentric, perfectionist nature. Let,s just say that after reading that I was less enthusiatic. How did Eastern come to let this school and individual act as the gateway to the RHS of a J41? I'm assuming AAA and Captain Briggs have more going for them than just being local.

[tocken]

Mr Briggs seems to get a lot of negative comments here and people with personal issues are voicing their views again. I also did my cpl/ir at AAA and yes it is more expensive than other schools and Mr Briggs does seem to have only one method of teaching which does and will not suit everybody, but I believe that you leave AAA as a prospective productive FO as opposed to someone who can fly an ILS. A few recent FO's have really struggled making the transition to RHS at Eastern and others who have been there a while with instructing experience are under performers. All this boils down to the quality of training you have received before hand. I know AAA hurts in the pocket but when those LPC/OPC's come around, you know where that extra money went. As for what does Mr Briggs know about being a First Officer... He's probably forgotten more about flying than most people on here will ever know:hmm:

[jamestkirk]

Has anyone got any information on

1. Eastern airways in general.

2. Their recruitment process and any tips.


Thanks

[chai ja]

15k bond I believe for the wet-dream

check PPJN

cj

[jamestkirk]

Thanks.

Thats one of the things I am wondering about. Weather it is a bond or money up front.

[dougy24]

A mate and I did one 'Capt Brigg's selections last year at Triple AAA, If you want the Heads up on it, PM me and i'll let you know my thoughts.

As for Eastern, they seemed a nice bunch of people whom i met.

[jamestkirk]

Has anyone any info on the technical question paper they set.

Thanks

[mattd2k]

Yeah, probably technical questions! :p

If you want I can lend you a book. ;)

Good luck with it. :ok:

[MIKECR]

I heard it's ridiculously tough! I believe Mike Briggs has gotten hold of some nuclear phsyics/mathematics type book from somewhere that he's been asking questions from! He doesnt even give you a pen and paper to work with, it all has to be done in your head. I know someone that did his tests, they said it was a joke. Come on.....its Eastern Airways, not BA!!!

p.s. have you got an interview?? I thought the tech questionaires were just for people on the Mike Briggs, Triple A scheme(CPL'IR with him and job with Eastern).

[jamestkirk]

The letter I got was;
1. Talk by eastern on the company
2. Technical questionaire
3. Intervierw
4. SIM ride

Apart from that I am totally in the dark.

[MIKECR]

Yeah I think that seems to be the latest recruitment process for them. I hear the tech questionaire is pretty tough too. The Sim ride is probably still with Triple A. The status quo I believe is still 12k for the J41 rating, which you have to pay for yourself.

[Captain Boycott]

Maybe worth pointing out that there are at least two selection processes for potential FO's with relation to Eastern Airways, as there seems to be some confusion in parts of this thread

One selection process being aimed at PPL pilots having completed their ATPL exams and in a position to commence the CPL/IR/MCC sections of their training (there are a couple of threads with more info on this selection on Bristol Ground Schools forum and AAA website) and yes as someone correctly stated, CPL/IR section of the training is undertaken at AAA Humberside Airport

The other process is for those already in possession of the CPL/IR/MCC

Perhaps the best advice, for those unsure of the situation, is to ask the relevant questions to the relevant people, depending upon which selection you would be interested in, im sure you will find people helpful and informative.

Hope this helps

[dougy24]

As said in previous post, have a look at Bristol Groundschool Forum, opportunities etc, its listed there.
Tells you what the score is for PPL to FO under Capt B's scheme.!!

The Link is below

http://www.jals.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4828

:sad:

[jamestkirk]

Good point. I am the latter.

I suppose if its a new selection process then there will probably be little knowledge on the questionaire.

Does anyone know if the tech questions are maths based or a/c tehnical based.

[dougy24]

Tocken,

I have had experience with CPL Briggs and it wasnt a particularly pleasant one?, basically what I am saying is All of the people cannot be wrong all of the time and there are far more negative comments than good ones?

[tocken]

Doughy 24.;)

Fair comment, there were times when when MB made me very frustrated shall we say. However, people with negative comments will always air their veiws more than people with positive ones. I still feel feel it's more of a personality clash with folks such as yourself, but i do empathise.

[horsebox]

There is a big article about eastern airways with company background etc in todays Sunday Times business section. Might be worth a read if you have an interview coming up.

link here (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article1908974.ece)

[dougy24]

Tocken,

Yep you could be right, but as i said, not prepared to publicly slate someone, I dont really think its fair, if they cannot have the chance to speak back, but all I would say is it wasnt so much a personality clash, but rather more of an integerity issue (did I spell that correctly)!!

But anyway I was trained by another very good flight school at much less cost and now have a good job, so cannot really complain?.

D:ok:

[jamestkirk]

The sim ride is done in the J41 simulator. You don't have to pay for it

[dougy24]

Nice one, how did it go ?

[jamestkirk]

They have offered (which i have accepted) a job flying the Saab 2000.

[MIKECR]

James,

sent you a pm

[dougy24]

Nice One

Glad it went well for you.

[planeshipcar]

Hi guys,

I was wondering are eatsern pilots bonded with their type rating or is it all paid up front.

Also are they still asking for cabin crew commitment before offering pilot jobs, an idea I could accept.

cheers,

PSC

[MIKECR]

PSC,

The goal posts seem to continualy move on this one, but the last I heard was that new FO's had to self fund the J41 TR(12k). There was talk off a 6k refund after 3 years but im not sure if thats still the deal. As for the cabin crew post, that was something that was only ever offered to a couple of people, basically because there was no TR courses avilable at the time. It was never the 'norm'.

[IOMspotter]

Any of you Eastern guys know what the company plans for its newcastle -isle of man. Manx rumour is its going to stop but thats been the same rumour for nearly 2 years! Loads last month dropped to around 35% again.

Does eastern still have a J31 they could put on instead of the 41?

Isle of man needs a NCL srvice but it seems the fares put pax off and they drive to MAN instead and come over with Euromanx or FlyBe instead. for £29 single:hmm:

[red17]

If Eastern were to pull the NCL route then I am sure Manx2 or FlyBe would move in to the route. With a third a/c rumoured for BE it seems a possibility

[IOMspotter]

Having seen there October figures on IOM to BHX and BRS as well as NCL they must be a bit concerned :confused:

[vinscaf]

hi, anyone has got some info on the selection???