night and day and HK/USA

[funkymonk]

HI,

I posted these questioins on the wannabes page and didn't get a respnse to my questions. I appriciate your responses.

"SO...

I'm wondering about what CX's flying really does to a persons sleeping habits? How much of your life are you being "turned upside down" so to speak concerning flying at night and time changes and so on. I'm at a small US regional and even flying through two time zones is noticable when I'm on the wrong side of the time line for a 6 am show time. :yuk:

Is it just something that isn't really that bad, or is it really that bad but everyone just deals with it? I guess what I'm really asking is how often are you fatigued?

Yes we all know how smart you are that 'if you're fatigued you shouldn't be flying.' This I know and it is 100% true. But the question is concerning how tough CX flying is on your sleeping habits not whether you should be flying fatigued or not.

Part two,

I'm a young pilot with roughly 2000+ hrs TT. About 1400 of it is sic in a regional jet. I'm hoping to get on with CX as a DESO. I've heard many ask but haven't heard a good answer; when should I expect a call?

Also my wife and I are looking forward to moving to Hong Kong for the three years (or so I've been told) and then we would like to return to the states,our family ,and hopfully be based out of SAN or LAX.

Am I dreaming? Does it work this way or will it be tough for me to get back to a US base after I've started up in HK? I really apprieciate your responses."

Funkymonk:ok:

[404 Titan]

funkymonk

As an SO you will do about three long haul trips per month. A long haul being a trip across six times zones or more. Each trip is four days long and it takes you about five days to recover from each trip once you get back to Hong Kong. Therefore out of a month of say 30 days you will spend 27 of them not knowing whether you want to sleep or not. Welcome to the life of a long haul pilot.

If you stay on the pax fleet don’t expect to be able to bid for a base for at least six years assuming you are on the right fleet. At present it is the B744. In six years time it will be the B777. If you are willing to take the large pay cut and you meet the requirements of a DEFO on the freighter, you could possibly transfer to the freighter fleet. I must point out though that not many people take this path for obvious reasons.

[funkymonk]

thanks for your input. :)

[600rvr]

funkymonk

If you are willing to take the large pay cut and you meet the requirements of a DEFO on the freighter, you could possibly transfer to the freighter fleet. I must point out though that not many people take this path for obvious reasons.

Titan, I know you would give up the housing allowance to transition to freight, and the schedule is a bit worse, but the base pay is a little more than a HK based SO isn't it?

[404 Titan]

600rvr

I wrote this on the DEFO Pax thread a few weeks ago. Without knowing the US DEFO Freighter pay off the top of my head, I think it still applies.
Numero Crunchero

No, busy working. You have left out that a DESO can get up to HKD$24150.00per month in housing assistance (50% of the rent free zone) on top of their basic year one monthly salary of HKD$32213.00 which they can use to pay for a rental property or pay off a mortgage if they buy a property in Hong Kong. So a DESO on HKD$56363.00 gross per month is about AUD$7500.00 per month after tax. After 2 years they go to the full rent free zone allowance of about HKD$48000.00 per month plus a basic monthly salary of HKD$40410.00. This is a monthly income in AUD of about $11800.00 net. A DEFO on a Sydney base must stay on that base for a minimum of four years. So if we say the DESO has had the full housing allowance for three years and is using it to pay off a mortgage, without going into the exact numbers I would say they are better off that the DEFO pax guy.

Would a CPA disagree with an MBA on numbers? I always like debating numbers. You know me Crunchero.:ok:
If an SO uses his housing allowance wisely while in Hong Kong and pays off a mortgage, he would be better off than a DEFO on a North American Base, especially if the freighter pilot lives in Canada and commutes to the US as so many of them do.
Titan, I know you would give up the housing allowance to transition to freightYou presume too much to think I would transfer to the freighter fleet. It would cost me a fortune. Even as a Captain its not worth it. BTW I'm a Pax FO not an SO.

[Numero Crunchero]

Funky
I don't want to get into the money side of things cause 404 will argue with me;-) Basically, if you are happy doing a job then the salary is secondary...if you hate the job, no amount of money is enough.

Jet lag....hmm...you have kids? Same feeling. You learn to grab sleep when you can. When I was just long haul I loved it...I had a young child, so had masses of time off to spend with her. She wasn't the worlds best sleeper so suddenly being paid to go to sleep for 4-5hrs seemed like money for jam!

Some of peers abhor long haul....some love it. Just depends on your own attitude to life. I much prefer 4man long haul to 3man oz flights as you get a decent amount of time off.

I am sure you take everything you read here with a grain of salt. Lots of whingeing but very few feet moving! For all its faults CX is still a pretty good outfit to work for.

[SNS3Guppy]

I've been searching over the various threads, and am still a bit confused. A new F/O or S/O must start out for several years in Hong Kong, before being able to move back to the US, correct?

If one were to be based in HK...how much trouble is it to get to the US for a weekend with the kids? Kids live with their mother, visitation allowed every couple of weeks...possible from Hong Kong?

Visa versa...possible to commute to HK via the freighter line or pax line from the US? Thanks.

[funkymonk]

Thanks to titan and chrunchero for the great input. :D


I too am wondering about how hard it would be to get back to the states every now and again.

I've heard that you need to go back to HK for up to a year after being awarded a Captain spot. Is this ever avoidable? I look forward to being in HK as an SO but hope to move back to the states for good after those first 3 years. Is that possible? Realistic?;)

Funkymonk

[spongebob_pilot]

why don't you just type out your PRN number. I'll attach it with these statements of "really wanting to be in Hong Kong", and I'll pass them on to the recruitment office. Better yet, Ill just send an anonymous letter, warning them about a pilot with your credentials. I'm sure they'll do the homework, and then you won't have to worry about getting back to the states......you can just stay there. Enjoy.

[WaldoPepper]

If you happen to get on the Airbus fleet, you will fly a lot more than the B744 SO's. I'm CCQ on A340/A330 and normally do 4 Australian trips per month. This month (December) I have 4 aussie trips and a sim. I dought whether you could commute back to the U.S. on this kind of roster. The 4 trips plus the sim puts me smack on the max hours before overtime kicks in, so it happens regularly.

After each upgrade, SO-FO or FO-CP, you spend the next few months flying regionally (probably not the B744 though) so commuting would be very difficult. I'm not a FO but I gather you would work 4-6 days per week.

Additionally, if you are an FO based in US (pax) and you get your command, unless there is a command slot available, then you'll be stuck in HK until one comes along. This could take a while depending on which fleet/expansion etc.

Fianlly, I believe that if you go into the interview with a mindset of not wanting to live in HK you wouldn't get the job anyway. They ask a lot of questions during the 2nd round regarding what you'll do in your time off, and more importantly, what will your wife do if she doesn't work. HK is not for everybody and you should come here for a visit and see what you think. The polution is really quite bad. ANY dought in their mind and they won't go for you.

Good Luck

WP

[flat-tire]

Question: What do people do with their houses when they transition to Captain and return to HK? Do they take the family with? Pull the kids out of school and etc?

[WaldoPepper]

I'm not sure what they do, the choice is to bring everyone to HKG or not see them for a while. It could suit you either way. Just remember that it could take some years to get back onto the base you want.

Also, staff travel is getting harder and harder to use, especially if you want to use it during the peak times of the year.

WP

[funkymonk]

whats the "rent free zone" that 404 titan was refering to? Are there different allowance rates depending on if you are renting or on a morgage?

[Five Green]

The housing allowance is adjusted to represent the average rental cost of a three bedroom reasonable sized flat in on Hong Kong Island.

As such the value of the monthly housing rises and falls with the market.

You will get more for your rental / purchasing dollar out of Hong Kong Island than in the center of town.

If you buy you can elect to float with the rate (adjusted regularily) or you can lock in and take your chances. The purchase makes sense around the 4-5 million HKD price range and will take you 8- 10 years to pay off. if you buy at 2 mill or so you can pay off in under three years. Of course that is all at the low interest rates of the last eight years. If interest rates go up you can quickly add 5 years to your payments !! Also the market has historically had huge corrections and we have had a good run since SARs .

So there you have it. Not sure if this is a deciding factor in taking a job at CX or not !!

As for what people do for commands that is so far down the road for anyone not in the company yet, that it is not even worth taking into consideration. However if you averse to spending time in Hong Kong with your family then CX might not be the place for you. Stand by for change.

FG
FG

[Numero Crunchero]

Funky monk
the actual rental numbers are in 404's post above...but just to keep it simple I am going to ignore the first 2 years of SO where you get half the RFZ(rent free zone)
Whilst you are an expat in HKG you have 3 levels. Basic, RFZ and Level 1(i think it is still called that?)
Basic is $24K a month and that is what you would get if you don't provide CX with a lease or mortgage(ie if you are buying). So guys sharing a house with other people cause they commute to oz/us/uk etc would only get $24K
RFZ- at the moment i think 404 said it is about $48K/month - so you can rent any place for up to $48K and CX will pay the entire amount - or you can buy a place and CX will pay the mortgage up to $48K. So what FG was saying is that if you bought a cheap 2-3million place, you make the term of the loan so short that your monthly payments are $48K.
Level 1 - 2 parts to this....to keep it simple, once you are a CN you can go to level 1 - it was about $73K/month a couple of months ago. So you can rent a place for up to $73K BUT you contribute 8% of the cost - so you pay about $6K/month out of our salary and CX pays the other $67K odd. The 2nd part is that after you have been in CX 8 years, and NOT a CN, you can rent for a figure halfway between RFZ and level 1 - so $60.5K(halfway between 73-48) and you contribute 8% of that rent.

So if you stayed in HKG until you were a CN your housing payments, based on current figures would be..
SO year 1 and 2 RFZ/2 - $24K
SO year 3+4? +Fo1-4 RFZ $48K to rent or buy
SFO1 RFZ or (RFZ+level1)/2 or $60.5 - you pay 8%
CN Level 1 $73K you pay 8%

Most commuters buy a place as since they are hardly ever in HKG it makes sense to take advantage of getting $48K to pay off a flat

hopefully a little clearer...I think I am confused now:confused:

[funkymonk]

FG and NC thank you so much for your explainations.

You're right. The housing incentive really isn't a deciding factor in taking or not taking the job but i was very interested in how it all works. Now I have a better idea. :ok: