PLYMOUTH -2

[WOWBOY]

The other PLYMOUTH thread has closed so:

Skybus are to carry out some one-off Chritmas flights from St Mary's, article below:


CHRISTMAS SHOPPERS TO FLY IN FROM ST MARY'S
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11:50 - 08 December 2006

Plymouth City Airport has teamed up with Isles of Scilly Travel to offer the 2,000 residents of Britain's most southwesterly islands the chance to do their Christmas shopping in Plymouth.Over the next two weeks, a number of special Isles of Scilly Skybus flights will operate from St Mary's to Plymouth, giving Scilly residents a full day's shopping in Plymouth.

Jeff Marston, chief executive of the Isles of Scilly Steamship Group, which is operating the special flights, said: "We are delighted to be able to offer islanders the chance to take advantage of Plymouth's unique range of department stores, independent retailers as well as the new Drake Circus Shopping Centre for their Christmas shopping. We've even made a special allowance for the extra weight that the plane will be carrying back."

Mike Coombes, head of commercial development at Plymouth City Airport, said: "Plymouth is a great place to come for Christmas shopping, with the more choice than anywhere else in Devon and Cornwall. We are looking forward to welcoming these special pre-Christmas flights to Plymouth City Airport."


Source (http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=133188&command=displayContent&sourceNode=133171&contentPK=16137305&moduleName=InternalSearch&formname=sidebarsearch)

[Devonair]

A small piece of good news for PLH. Unfortunately this is not going to prevent the decline in passenger numbers this year. PLH is going backwards in terms of pax numbers and destinations.. can't see this changing with it's present runway contraints and flybe 70km up the road in booming EXT. There are no international routes from the airport anymore.

[Outoftheblue22]

Devonair - don't be so quick to write-off Plymouth! Yes, according to CAA stats pax are down on last year, but that's due to Air Wales shutting up shop. ASW are, by all accounts, pretty busy ex PLH with the routes to the north (Manchester and Leeds) doing well. EXT may be quite busy in terms of pax going out to the Med, but a lot of the scheduled growth is coming from pax coming off the former charter flights to the same places. PLH is developing quite a nice niche in offering flights to/from UK cities. Also the GA side is growing nicely (including a booming air-taxi operation, which Capital Aviation are apparently spearheading, including a big promotional bash on Friday at the airport for local businesses).

[Devonair]

I don't think I'm knocking PLH, I just don't think it has much real scope to expand that much more with it's current runway length. It is a shame the city council seem quite ambivalent about it really.... I know you can fly to LBA and MAN from the city but the routes are not direct. Indeed the latest CAA figures for October show MAN is down 52% on 2005 to less than 1,900 per month. It's a pity for a city the size of Plymouth that if you want to fly to Scotland or Ireland there are no options. I hope ASW continue to do well from the city and the niche they have carved out for themselves can be maintained.

[eidah]

Its a shame about plymouth Airport. It could have so much potential expand runway so you get a 737 in and when they close newquay due to close as the RAF pulling out all those flights go to plymouth. Plymouth is a fantastic ciy and apart from Exeter the whole southwest has very few fight connections. Get the low fares Airline in and plymuth would improve its toursism trade.

[Ops Guy]

Just out of intrest, how long is the Runway down there??:ok:

[Devonair]

According to Wikipedia it's 1,161m!

[EGTE]

Due to the restricted runway length at Plymouth the airport has only ever supported niche business routes along with leisure routes to Cork & the Channel Islands. I can't really see this changing.

Air Southwest may be able to develop additional direct routes - Eire, Scotland, Newcastle etc but I suspect that the majority of services from Plymouth might have to be feeder flights to a larger hub - say Bristol.

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

Just for info just read that Newquay has just received/or about £8M to help keep airfiled open

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/6169995.stm


G-I-B

[big_al69]

I can categorically state that NQY will not be closing.

[footster]

I did read in the letters section of the local press that in a reply to a letter to the council they had said there would be an announcement on the expansion of the runway before the end of year. Well its getting close and nothing yet.At least give CCC credit they have got off there bums to try and fund Newquay unlike PCC at this time.:rolleyes:

[WOWBOY]

I agree, Plymouth City Council do nothing for the airport, really. They seem to just push it to the side. Many complain about the aiport in thr local press, yet they still nothing.

[footster]

PCC commisioned yet another report in the middle of this year which gave good pax numbers in future years if there recomendatioins for the airport where carried out. I might be wrong but there seems tobe a conflict of interests. ASW and Sutton Harbour Holdings wanted the smaller expansion of where as i believe the report was calling for the longer one. One factory is already empty and the other one wouldnt take much to move the occupants out. So the land is there to accomodate this. But I dont just believe it is this council to blame for Plymouth not having an airport for the size of population they are no different than previous ones they are frightened to stick there knecks out and go for it. Instead they have allowed the land around the airport tobe built on. They keep saying its important for Plymouth to have good airlinks so stick your Knecks out PCC forget about the nimbys and get on with because it may already be to late.Sorry for getting on my soap box but all we keep getting is talk from them which is cheap instead of action.

[Devon-Flyer]

Its incredible that anyone would think it worthwile doing any serious work on Plymouth Airport. Just look where it is - a major road at one end and a huge drop at the other. Land is valuable on the outskirts of Plymouth and the engineering costs would be huge. Air Southwest are quite happy leaving things as they are they operate STOL (ish) aircraft and extending the runway would leave them open to competition something which a company like ASW could not survive.

[footster]

Whilst I agree with you the PCC have said that land at the 06 runway end of the site would be sold off to partially pay for the extension and it would be a case of bringing in fill material to build up the 31 end of the runway for the expansion. Just to put another slant on the subject does anyone think that maybe ASW are quite happy with Plymouth as it is because when St Mawgan is mothballed next year there might be a chance of negotiating the lease of hangars from the Ministry of Defence and them moving there main base to Newquay.

[WOWBOY]

footster

To be honest i couldn't see them moving the whole abse over to newquay Sutton Harbour Holdigns is largly based in Plymouth etc... But storing aircarft in NQY is agood idea, for them. But operations and main base would be shocking if they moved!

[Dash-7 lover]

AAG ATR parked on 06 threshold when I went to MARJONS gym the other day.....23/12 - covering WOW flights or a charter??
G-RHUM I think? Looked pretty clean and smart!

[stolport]

The ATR on 23/12 was for an Argyle match.

[footster]

I have read this in the local press it would be interesting to see what people think.

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=181429&command=displayContent&sourceNode=181429&contentPK=16596752

[GROUNDHOG]

Close Plymouth, Newquay, Exeter, Bristol and even Cardiff and build a new south west airport top replace them all with a high speed rail network that connects to major centres.

Sorry this is a Plymouth thread, how about some affordable housing or a new business park with a high speed rail connection from the City centre to Exeter airport?

[footster]

I see today in the local press today that PAX numbers have decreased by 25% in the last 12 months.According to the Civil Aviation Authority figures, 132,514 passengers used Plymouth City Airport in 2005, a figure which dropped to 100,045 in 2006.Does anybody think Plymouths days are numbered as both Newquay and Exeters numbers have increased.

[Air Hop]

Yes, it seems as if it has probably peaked! Surely now is the time for ASW to approach Exeter with its new ownership and start to delevop routes and keep PLH for its niche services.

[Outoftheblue22]

The pax figures for PLH are distorted due to Air Wales shutting up shop. The ASW routes are doing ok by all accounts.

[Ambrosia]

The main reason that Air Wales stopped operating from PLH is the standard of handling that they received from ASW.

The airport and ASW are both owned by the same company. Air Wales had some very good routes from PLH but suffered badly as the ground handling personnel often deliberately delayed and disrupted departures.

A very sad state of affairs when you consider that Air Wales were the only scheduled operator at this airport and kept many staff in employment during the gap in between BA pulling out and ASW starting ops.

They deserve the demise that they are now experiencing. PLH is an awful airport....short runway, no radar, poor ATC, vintage fire trucks (one is 35 yrs old!!!!) and a shocking weather record.

As for Air Wales....they still operate 2 of their ATR 42 aircraft on ACMI lease work and if the rumours are true may well be back operating from CWL soon.

looks like the 'Janners' scored an own goal!

[Ambrosia]

Nope.....from a flying point of view I actually enjoyed operating into PLH as it could be quite a challenge!!!.....been there over 300 times and only failed to get in twice....1st time couldn't see it, and second was gusting x wind >50kts:\

It was once on stand that it all went wrong.....just down to insufficient staff I guess.....but their attitude towards Air Wales was appalling.

[footster]

Below is a letter to the local newspaper help us put pressure on PCC.
The more we get the better.I know this is a local issue but there may some local people who post on this thread but even if youre not feel free to contact the email addresses below.

Tudor Evans is becoming like a smaller version of Tony Blair,
whereby he wants to leave office with a legacy.

It would appear he is willing to move heaven and earth to provide the
Life Centre, regardless of the horrendous costs of £26million. He is
also willing to pump a further £25million into transport, but we
doubt if any of that will be spent on extending the runway at
Plymouth City Airport.

Sutton Harbour Holdings (SHH) are doing their very best to keep Air
Southwest flying, despite the drop in passengers. Because of its
limited carrying capacity it simply cannot compete with the larger
budget carriers, hence the prices: but the company could go someway
to redressing that balance if the runway were extended to 1,319
metres.

We have it on good authority from SHH that they are fully behind
Plymouth Airport and believe that if Plymouth is to prosper then it's
essential it has larger aircraft, and that can only be done with an
extension. SHH are also in favour of other airlines operating out of
Plymouth, but very few are prepared to pay for the huge costs
involved in the extension of the runway. This puts Sutton Harbour
Holdings in a difficult situation, while Tudor Evans and his council,
the landlords, drag their heels.

The council has its priorities all wrong. Instead of spending money
on Life Centres and such like, they should put it where it is most
needed, at the airport, so supporting SHH, who are carrying the can
for the airport's failings.

If this city is to prosper, particularly with the future of the
Dockyard under the spotlight, it's essential transport links are
improved dramatically. This can only be done by air travel. We are
looking forward to the public of Plymouth and surrounding areas
supporting our initiatives in the important matter of Plymouth
Airport. We can be contacted at [email protected] and hilly-
[email protected] and would appreciate any help you could offer.

SID ANNING and IAN HILL

Plymouth

[stolport]

I totally agree - a decision needs to be made asap.

Look at what was happening at the airport 10 years ago - Brymon flew to Gatwick, Bristol, Cork, Jersey, Guernsey; the old Air South West flew to Dublin, Cork and Manchester; there was a nightly mail flight; there was a busy Beechcraft service centre and the Navy did their flight grading operation.

20 years ago this July, the airport had a big open day with 146's. Dornier's, ATRs, Dash-8's and HS125s visiting.

Going back to 1982, Brymon flew to Gatwick, Heathrow, Cork, Guernsey, St Mary's, Morlaix, Brest

A few years ago Air Wales flew to Cardiff, Cork and Dublin.

Today there are just the Air Southwest flights, no service centre and the Naval Flight training flight has left. Most of the buildings are occupied by non airline companies.

The terminal is very smart inside and a lot better and cleaner than many - i.e. Exeter. It has the capacity to handle way more scheduled flights even with its limited apron space.

[captain_flynn]

If they were to extend the runway would they end up knocking houses down? Isnt there some kind of factory (or something of that nature) on the 31 end?

I flew into Plymouth today in G-ROUP (C172) on a practice of my qualifying x-country and I found the ATC to be really good, clearly spoken and helpful.

While there I saw a Dauphin come in to land (twice) I think it had Royal Navy written on it. Is that based there?

[footster]

Yes the daulphins belong to British International on contract to Navy FOST and also work out of Weston Mill but primarily Plymouth.

[captain_flynn]

Thanks very much for the information there. I had to hold on runway 13 as one landed behind me. Sadly no dash 8 in whilst I was there. :rolleyes:

Is the shorter runway a crosswind runway?

[Wellington Bomber]

Depends on which direction the wind is blowing from!

[captain_flynn]

Without a doubt, but as it's shorter than 13 I wondered if it was only used in very strong winds (in a similar way that runway 23 was used at Heathrow until it was closed and designated as taxiway alpha)

[stolport]

06-24 is normally only used when the crosswind exceeds 15 knots. It is often used to park visiting aircraft - there is currently a Dash-7 visitor parked up - haven't seen one here in quite a few years. The Dash-8's used to be able to land and take off on 06-24 but I don't think they can anymore due to the width of the runway.

[captain_flynn]

Hey

Thanks very much for the info. You've answered my question and i'm very grateful.:}

Is the Dash 7 the British Arctic Survey aircraft? It wasnt there when I flew into plymouth on Thursday so I assume it must have arrived either Friday or Saturday.

[EGTE]

Not British Antarctic Survey but Voyageur Airways C-GLOL in United Nations colours.

[captain_flynn]

Thank you. :}

[footster]

Plymouth City Airport must make more money to survive in the long term, according to a new council report.

A report to the city's Cabinet says Plymouth City Council is prepared to consider providing a longer runway at the airport.

But if the airport is to survive in the long term it must stem the current losses being made by the operators, the Sutton Harbour Group, and resolve the environmental issues highlighted by the Ombudsman, said the report.



One of the runways could be sold off for development in a long-term bid to stop it losing money. It is not yet clear what the sold land would be used for in future, although further details are expected to emerge shortly.

This is the latest

The sale of land at the airport would ?allow the council and operators to focus on the long-term future and address how the airport needs to develop in order to attract further scheduled airline operations and operate in profit and maximise its contribution to the Plymouth economy and community?, a council spokeswoman said this evening.

The report also says that the council is prepared to pay local residents compensation for the disturbance they have suffered because of the airport operations.

The compensation was recommended by the local government ombudsman in 2005 but the council has delayed making payments until now.

In 2005 the ombudsman said that the council should pay at least ?1,000 to households which have suffered ?severe disturbance? because of the airport.

[stolport]

So "the council is prepared to pay local residents compensation for the disturbance they have suffered because of the airport operations." and the long term plans are to build more houses! The onwers of the new houses will complain that engine runs are waking them up at 5am in the morning and ask for compensation!

Even if they do this I can't see it happening for some time. They'd also have to do something about the BIH/WOW hangar. Would cost a lot to move it from the 06 end to somewhere else.

[footster]

This is the full report concerning the expanded reading when you take into account that SHH have an armaggeden clause but to sell the land for houses makes it a double edge sword as if they dont have enough problems with the houses that already exist around the airport.

07:30 - 21 September 2007

One runway at Plymouth airport is likely to be sold off for housing and other development in a bid to save the loss-making service.The operator, Sutton Harbour Holdings, wants to exercise a clause in its lease that allows it to redevelop the land and reinvest the money in the airport.

The Civil Aviation Authority says passenger numbers at the airport fell to 100,045 in 2006, from 132,514 in 2005.

At the same time Exeter Airport passenger numbers reached 982,804 from 847,544.

But business leaders said this could be seen as "the thin end of the wedge" leading to the end of the airport.

Mike Leece, chairman of Plymouth Chamber of Commerce, said: "No airline or airport is viable if people won't use the services but hopefully the money from the sale will enable Sutton Harbour Holdings to invest in new routes.

"This must not be seen to be the thin end of the wedge. The best way for the business community to respond is to use the service."

Dave Young, managing director of the Airport Business Centre, said he was cynical that the proposals would produce the best outcome for businesses in the city.

"My understanding is that the business community cannot rely on the airport the way it currently operates and have given up on it."

Guy Walker, from the Chamber of Commerce, said: "If this is the only way in which to develop the airport and routes we are going to be supportive.

"We want to be certain that the capital will be used to invest in the future of the airport."

The runway to be closed - designated 06/24 - is the shorter of the two and runs parallel with Tavistock Road. The deal must be approved by the city Cabinet, which meets next Tuesday.

A report to the Cabinet also recommends paying local residents compensation for the disturbance they have suffered because of the airport. The compensation was recommended by the local government ombudsman in 2005 but the council has delayed making payments until now.

The report recommends that negotiations continue on an option in the 150-year lease that would allow the airport operators to release the land for development and to provide investment in the airport.

The city council would not receive any of the proceeds of a sale, even though it is the ground landlord, according to Nallin Seneviratne, the city's head of asset management.

The sell-off would end the use of that runway by helicopters, and move the engine testing bay and maintenance hanger to an area that would lessen the effect on local residents, the council said.

Laurie Price of Mott MacDonald, an aviation consultancy, said that half a million people lived in the airport's catchment area and there was no reason why it could not make money.

More investment could help to attract other carriers, and the improved level of service would encourage passengers, he said.

Ian Bowyer, the Cabinet member for Budget and Asset Management, said: "These decisions are about enabling the airport to continue to operate and giving the headroom to Sutton Harbour Company and the city council to work together to develop the plan for the future of the airport and investigate whether there is a business case for future runway extension."

Nigel Godefroy, managing director of Sutton Harbour Group, said: "We are delighted to be working with the city council on this package of strategic measures which provide an excellent platform for a successful future for the airport, whilst at the same time working to overcome environmental concerns with our near-neighbours.

"This is a positive step to ensure that Plymouth City Airport and its vital air links continue to play an important part in supporting the city and the wider region."

Sutton Harbour Holdings has an "Armageddon clause" in its main lease which allows it to close the airport completely if it continues to lose money. The land would be sold off and the proceeds split between it and the council.

[footster]

The man in charge of Plymouth City Airport has defended plans to sell off part of the site for housing, saying it is the best way to safeguard the facility's future.

Nigel Godefroy, managing director of the Sutton Harbour Group, owners of Plymouth City Airport, said without the sale the airport would remain unprofitable, which could lead to it being shut down.

But Mr Godefroy, writing exclusively in today's Herald, said his firm did not want to sell off the site, or strip it of its assets. Instead, he wanted to see the airport 'stand on its own two feet'.



Mr Godefroy said: "The simple fact is that although tens of thousands of people use the airport each year, it does not generate enough income to cover its costs.

"That's why we have been exploring with the city council other ways of ensuring that the airport continues to play a vital role in supporting Plymouth's and the region's economy."

He added: "We would use proceeds from the development to invest in further developing the airport's facilities and services."

Nigel Godefroy writes: "The pages of the Herald have been buzzing with comment and speculation on the latest developments regarding Plymouth City Airport.

What doesn't seem to be widely understood, however, is that what we are proposing is good news! Good news for the airport, for its customers, for the city and for our shareholders.

Essentially we are exploring with the City Council an option to develop an area of surplus airport land, whilst also protecting both the current operations and future development of the airport and its air links.

For readers unfamiliar with the airport issue, let me explain. The Sutton Harbour Group took over the running of the airport in 2000 and we lease the site from Plymouth City Council.

We also own and operate low fares regional airline Air Southwest, which we set up to save Plymouth and Newquay's air links to London Gatwick when BA decided to axe the route in 2003.

Air Southwest will celebrate its fourth birthday later this month, having carried in excess of one million passengers. We're very proud of that achievement.

Although our airline is profitable, Plymouth City Airport isn't. There are many reasons for this. The loss of 727 Squadron, the closure of regional airline Air Wales and the decision by the Post Office to axe its mail flights have all contributed. These have all been beyond our control, influenced by external factors and nothing to do with the running of the airport or its facilities.

We have sought to grow passenger numbers by introducing a range of new routes and through continued investment in the airport terminal. As well as a four times daily service to Gatwick we fly to Manchester, Leeds Bradford, Bristol and Jersey.

More than 100,000 people used the airport last year, and the message back from those passengers is that they like the ease with which they can board and depart aircraft, which they can do in a matter of minutes. And of course for the city's businesses, for inward investment, and for tourism, the air links are a vital component in Plymouth's infrastructure.

We have also looked at other activities like increased use of the airport by helicopters, but these can exacerbate noise issues among our near neighbours and we are therefore constrained by the operating conditions by which we must abide.

The simple fact is that although tens of thousands of people use the airport each year, it does not generate enough income to cover its costs. That's why we have been exploring with the City Council other ways of ensuring that the airport continues to play a vital role in supporting Plymouth's and the region's economy.

Having been based in Plymouth for 160 years we are not now about to pull the plug on one of the city's greatest assets, which contributes an estimated £12 million a year to the local economy. Far from it.

Our negotiations with the City Council, which owns the freehold to the airport site, include the potential for developing land that is surplus to requirements. And it's important to stress that if we develop that land it will in no way hinder the future growth of the airport. In fact, we're only looking at around 18 acres from a total area of 123 acres, involving the closure of our secondary runway which is rarely used.

We would use proceeds from the development to invest in further developing the airport's facilities and services. This would include relocating engine testing facilities and the maintenance hanger further away from local residents and cease all helicopter activity on the secondary runway. This would reduce noise nuisance and address the majority of environmental concerns that have constrained our ability to expand activities.

That's good news for the airport, its customers, the city, the wider region and our shareholders.

Most importantly, it helps us offset our immediate losses, deals with environmental issues in the short-term and buys us time to grow services, test future demand and decide, with the City Council, whether a runway extension is viable in the long-term.

Several Herald readers have asked why we can't just get on with a runway extension and attract bigger planes and other airlines. It might seem an attractive option on the face of it but the costs range from £13 million to £24 million (at last year's prices - and constriction costs are rising 6% a year), and neither the private nor public sector would consider such an investment without evidence of demand.

And we can't test that potential demand until we can deal with the current losses and environmental issues. So what we're doing with the City Council is taking a stepped approach that gives us the building blocks to move forward.

Several commentators have said developing part of the airport is the 'thin end of the wedge'. Others have said we are selling the family silver, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and even asset stripping. In fact what we're aiming to do is buy enough time to allow the airport to stand on its own two feet, and the deal we are discussing with the city council is the best opportunity to make that happen. Plymouth City Airport is a fantastic asset - just ask the 100,000-plus people who used it last year.

Plymouth, which is perhaps only now finding its confidence again for the first time since the war, needs - and deserves - its own airport. And that is why we are working with the City Council to ensure that Plymouth City Airport, and its popular and vital air links, are given the best possible opportunity to grow and prosper."

[cornishsimon]

just a quick mention, but i notice that Plymouth City airport fire service appliance 1 seems to now be working at Penzance heliport, its been at PZ for around a month or so now so im guessing it could be a permanent move, still showing its Plymouth markings though!

[Baltasound]

I flew from Plymouth with Air Wales to DUB a few years back. However, the problem is that with Newquay in one direction serving West/Mid Cornwall and it being easier to use the A30 to get to Exeter the market is about covered and the airport being very very prime development land. They could probabley fulfill the new housing quota by using that patch of ground alone.....

[judge11]

Something has gone SERIOUSLY wrong with Plymouth's planners (and politicians) over the past 30 years that has created the situation in which a city with a population in excess of 250K has to travel 40 miles in one direction or 35 miles in another to access decent air services. Plymouth, for a city of its size, must be nigh on unique in this day and age.:{

[birdscarer]

judge11 - Plymouth's only hope was a relocated airport. However the options are limited with all the country that surrounds it. They suggested a few years back to build one around the Sparkwell area. Only a council would suggest building at the point that an AONB (South Hams) and Dartmoor meet!
Maybe a STOL on the breakwater would be a good option!?! :}

[Phileas Fogg]

Having worked for the (old) Brymon at PLH during the 1980's I agree that if an airport is to succeed then it needs to be relocated.

As I recall the secondary runway was 12/30, they realigned it to 13/31 to get as much length as possible so where exactly might a runway extension now come from, unless they are to landfill, reroute roads and/or knock down houses?

It is also located on top of a hill, I recall one February when for an entire month we didn't see an aircraft whilst the cloud remained on the surface, it needs to be relocated nearer to sea level and with a decent length of runway.

[Raven30]

it needs to be relocated nearer to sea level and with a decent length of runway.How about Newquay ??:E

[Phileas Fogg]

With Plymouth being at 476ft amsl St Mawgan is another of the great British ideas of building airports/airfields on tops of hills being at 390ft amsl.

[footster]

I am afraid the chances of a new Plymouth Airport have gone and never to return. As has been stated numerous times before PCCs past and present just havent had the balls for want of a word or the forsight to take the bull by the horns and upset the nimbys living near the airport.The only chance now of a runway extension is a landfill at the 31 end of the runway the idea of putting it on stilts was thrown out a couple of years ago on cost grounds.The talk is and once again it is only talk which is what we keep getting from the relevant parties is that part of the airport is tobe sold off to pay for the improvements in infrastruture and the runway extension Ha! All talk and I doubt whether it will happen in our lifetime as they missed the boat numerous years ago.

[oldpax]

Tongue in cheek,landfill the Plym as far as Laira bridge leaving a dredged area for river water discharge!China clay has already done most of the work!Direct access to the embankment and the city!!Power stations gone so no Chimneys there!!

[crew the screw]

In 5 to 10 years when Flybe have muscled Airsouthwest out of the west country or taken them over and closed them down ensuring plymouth passengers have to go to Exeter or Newquay or the most unlikley of all taken them over and run plymouth services still

Or Sutton Harbour will have just sold them off in the next 24 months... :(

[footster]

All of this has more truth than the runway extension.Im afraid Plymouth missed the boat some years ago thanks to short sighted cowardly councillors and it will never return.Im afraid Plymouths days with an airport are numbered I hope im wrong but the get up and go got up and went along time ago for Plymouth.

[Baltasound]

Added to the mix is the Exeter Gateway project and the East Devon new town which is to built in stages around that present site. As a result a railway station is pencilled in which will serve both the Airport ndthe New Town and the connected freight facilities which puts Exeter on a firmer footing.

There are also "plans" to improve public transport to Newquay (town as opposed to the Airport) - though whether these come to fruition is anyone's guess.

10 years I reckon Plymouth will be housing. I hope I am wrong.

[Air Hop]

Why waste the energy:confused:

[Phileas Fogg]

But the winds generally blow east/west or west/east hence 06/24 being the 'old' primary runway. The only advantage of 12/30, or as it is now 13/31, is because of the increased length available and the favourable approach to 31, yes, we did use to watch DHC7's climb up the valley, whilst getting below the cloud, to land on 30.

A/C to Tower, upon landing, 'confirm you said the vis was 1500m' (the minima), reply, 'negative, 150m'!

So to close 06/24, not that there is much commercially that can use it, really has to be an 'beancounter' decision, not only has PLH got a problem of excessive low cloud but with only 13/31 it will have a crosswind problem also.

As an aside, does anyone know wher Dave Cornish might be lurking these days ..... please?

[marlowe]

So PLH to be a housing estate soon i can just see the names of the streets Dash7 mews, Dash8 drive, Busfield lane!!!!!!!!!!

[footster]

I dont know whether anyone is interested but I have just found another forum for the southwests airports if you are interested in joining that one pm me and I will give you the details.

[Phileas Fogg]

So PLH to be a housing estate soon i can just see the names of the streets Dash7 mews, Dash8 drive, Busfield lane!!!!!!!!!!

'Twotter Terrace' :)

Dave Busfield?

[marlowe]

Or Rosie kinda thought named after the two!!

[BEXIL160]

The future for PLH does indeed look bleak, and decisions taken WAY, way back started the rot........

Take a drive out to Yelverton, and before you come to the village you will drive past what used to be RAF HARROBEER, now common land (and where I, and many others, learned to ride a motorcycle.... aged 12!)

Following the end of WW2 the whole airfield was offered to both Plymouth City Council, and then Devonshire County Council, for continued use as the city's municipal airport.

Both councils turned the offer from the War Dept. down, Devon, because they already had the use of Exeter Airport, and Plymouth City because the didn't have the money. Remember Plymouth had been "Bilitzed" in 1941, and was in the throws of serious rebuilding

(There is a film of the devestation wrought on what was the city centre, viewed from North Road. Few buildings remain standing amongst the rubble :( . The film remained under a D notice until after the war and did not get a public release until the early 1980's. It was deemed too shocking. It still is)

So, the grass aerodrome at Roborough soldiered on in various guises, was briefly sucessful under Bill Bryce.... and now the end is near.. sad really..... but inevitable?

BEX

P.S. I was told recently Dave Cornish works for BA, I went to school with his brother Paul.

[Outoftheblue22]

Actually I think you'll find the future is rather bright at Plymouth!

The local media seem to have got the wrong end of the stick. Lots of comment about property development on the airfield - but the facts are that there is some potential property development on the southern end of the airfield, which in no way conflicts with the operation of the airport. A fact that is rather endorsed by Air Southwest (also owned by Sutton Harbour) doubling the number of destinations from Plymouth this year with new flights to Glasgow, Newcastle, Cork, Dublin and Chambery.

The extensive local marketing of the new flights is causing a lot of interest locally, and would suggest that the Sutton Harbour parent company has a strong commitment to developing flights from the airport in tandem with its property interests. A pretty shrewd commercial approach I reckon.

[WOWBOY]

The plans to sell off the smaller runway has been approved today!

Runway is expected to close very soon.
What does this mean for Plymouth?

[WOWBOY]

Today it was revealed that PCC has given SSH the go ahead to draw up plans for a runway extention. Seems like a step in the right direction for Plymouth;


Plymouth City Airport runway extension plan drawn up (http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Airport-extension-plan-drawn/article-958660-detail/article.html)

[dalej123]

I think that is finally good that there are thinking about the extension and the future of both the airport and Plymouth. I think they should get the plans done for second half of this year or next year. We can't wait until 2014. We need the runway sorted asap.

[commit aviation]

Hmmm - draw up costed plans & prove that it will discuss with the CAA & EASA. That is a long way from actually building a new runway!
The government will need to supply funds ....& then there's the environmental lobby who may have a slightly less positive slant on the whole thing!
I am pro aviation & have no wish to rain on anyones parade but a runway before 2014??? I fear you'll be doing well if you get a decision by then.

[Boeing 77W]

What does this mean for Plymouth?
I'd say it's good news. Little need for the runway and the funds can be used to invest in the new facilities/redevelopments which have been detailed in the master plan.

[dalej123]

I have a few questions i would like to ask you people:

1. Do you think Plymouth Airport will ever expand?
2. Can it hold the Avro RJ85?
3. Do you think the airport will be closed in the next 15 years?


Please feel free to post any other thoughts or comments you may have about Plymouth City Airport.

[Richard Le page]

Hi
I think for Plymouth to expand the runway would have to be lengthened and the apron area expanded to accomodate larger aircraft.Not sure how possible this is,is Plymouth airport not located in a built up area?
I live in Guernsey and we have the same problem in which we need a longer runway to attract more airlines and to do so would require considerable redevelopment of the surrounding land.
I dont think an RJ85 could land at PLH,I think the largest aircraft it can accomodate is the Dash8-300,as for closing in the next 15 years I have no Idea but think it probably wont.

Regards

[cornishsimon]

lots of discussion previously about PLH on the PLH thread and the air southwest thread.

PLH is owned by SHH which also own airsouthwest so im guessing that they are quite happy from a competition point of view with the current setup of the airport and runway being that they are the only commercial operator of scheduled services into PLH, most of which are services which operate via or from NQY before going on and all operate with a dh8-300.

However, plans are on the cards to extend the runway and have been for some time, this i understand will involve knocking down the m thomas warehouse at the end of the runway, however with both NQY & EXT being fairly close by how much extra traffic from larger aircraft this would gain PLH is anyone's guess.
CS

[Boeing 77W]

The factory by the threshold of runway 31 is currently on a short term lease, I think of about 5 years so nothing could happen till the lease is finished. As Cornishsimon points out, the airport is owned by Sutton Harbour who also own ASW and so a runway extension which would open up the airport to other operators, who would rather ASW weren't around, could be risky. I don't think the airport will close in the next 15 years.

As for other developments, planning permission has been granted for the sale and development of the land at the western end of 24/06 which will provide significant funds for investment. A number of developments planned include relocated hangar/maintenance facilities, new car parks, enlargened apron space, improved road access and the possibility of an extended terminal. More details:

http://www.plymouthairport.com/up/file/PCA_Master_Plan_Document.pdf

[dalej123]

I agree with you all. Plymouth Airport does need to expend and i would love to see it expend. We need bigger aircraft so more people come to Plymouth. I have heard that if Plymouth did expend it would put really presure on both Newquay and Exeter because people in Plymouth can now fly from there local Airport insted of Exeter or Newquay.

Can Plymouth hold the Avro RJ85?

[goatface]

It would be great to see Plymouth expand but it comes back to the age old question, who is going to pay and how are they going to raise the money.
A runway extension not only involves laying down extra concrete, but CAA requirements are for wholesale improvements of exisiting facilities when an extension is built. So this would require SHH to spend money on installing full 5 bar approach lighting on the ILS runway, completely new edge lighting, install centreline lighting and improved taxiway lighting.
I would estimate that this involves around £6m and although I have no doubt SHH could raise the cash, it would be very expensive and it would depend on how quickly they thought they could get the money back.

As far as the RJ85 is concerned, I've no doubt that it could land but a fully loaded departure to anywhere outside mid France or that sort of radius is out of the question.
Besides which, there are very few RJ85 operators in the UK now and it's becoming a comparatively expensive aircraft to operate, easily beaten by a number of turbo prop's - the SAAB 2000 and DHC8 Q400 come to mind.

Good luck to Plymouth - I hope SHH take the plunge.

[Dash-7 lover]

Runway 06/24 closes as of 0900 Monday 24th August and renamed taxiway 'C' to enable building works to start on new apron, taxiways, light aircraft park, fire station and the all important housing development. Runway 24 displaced threshold will now be holding point 'Echo'. It will be Notamed and in the AIP shortly.

[Phileas Fogg]

Just by any chance the holes wouldn't still be in the fence on the 24 approach would they?

The holes made by a Twin Otter's fixed undercarriage going through the fence. :)

[oldpax]

Might have been the one I landed in back about 1979!!We landed on the grass runway ,very exciting!I wish Plymouth airport well and hope it prospers.So I can fly into it of course!!

[dalej123]

Do you know any information that is good for Plymouth city airport?

Do you know any airlines that are looking at coming to plymouth? I have been told there is a few looking but i don't know the names.

Dale

[marlowe]

yea they could put houses on it! Sutton harbour holdings own the airport and also own Air South West ,so they are not going to allow airlines in that will compete with themselves . the type of aircraft that can get in is limited and Air south west use the best type for the airport. so any new operator into PLH would be looking at the same type of routes as ASW and this would limit any growth potential for ASW .

[dalej123]

They have sold the land whcih will have the houses on it. Work has not started and no dates have yet been set

[GROUNDHOG]

Air Southwest was primarily set up to operate LGW-PLH-NQY and therefore protect PLH airport. I have no knowledge of the airlines finances but wonder whether Sutton Harbour, who lets face it are a property company, might be thinking is it all worth it with Flybe attacking the jewel in the Air Southwest crown and the current economic climate?

I worked for Westward Airways back in 1970 so would love Plymouth to have a burgeoning future but sadly doubt there will ever be anything other than a handful of flights from there.

[rogervisual]

Airsouthwest have a different jewel now PLH -LCY twice a day ,which has seen some excellent loads since it started. The advantage they have over Flymaybe is that on the Gatwick they only need to pick up 20 or so passengers at Plymouth and another 20 or so at Newquay and they have a great load for a 56 seater. Flymaybe need to fill the 70 seater at Newquay which is dfficult in the current climate.:)

[GROUNDHOG]

But neither you nor I will ever know the margins on each seat, that is not an assumption you can make without knowing the full costs. It does not always follow that a half empty aircraft contributes or loses more than a full one!

I am flying NQY/LGW/NQY Flybe over the next few weeks simply because I DON'T have the inconvenience of landing at PLH.

[rogervisual]

Groundhog - You are not that keen on Plymouth having a future or you would be flying with Airsouthwest. Even though they are based in Exeter, serving Cornwall is small change for Flymaybe. They will up sticks when there is more fruit to pick elsewhere.
Leaving the only true southwest airline.

[GROUNDHOG]

I regard Skybus as my local airline and would love to see them expanding. You are quite right I am not sufficiently keen on Plymouth's future to abandon Flybe if they are quicker, cheaper, offer a better baggage policy and more convenient than ASW. At present on NQY/LGW they are generally all of those things.

[Dash-7 lover]

GROUNDHOG - your argument holds no water. As you may be aware, the 'inconvenience' of flying through Plymouth is only from LGW to NQY on 3 flights, the SZ103/105 and 110. SZ111 is direct to NQY. On the 103 you arrive into NQY 40mins later, on the 105 it's 30mins and on 111 it's 5 minutes and don't forget the 110 which arrives NQY at 1800, compared with FLYBE's 'up to 3 ' flights a day. NQY to LGW with Air Southwest is direct. Also factor in the services to LCY twice daily and you have all the flexibility you need.

As far as fares, I've just picked a random day 1st March and Flybe NQY-LGW flight at 0720 comes to £60.98 incl charges and Air Southwest at 07.20 is a total of £50.00 incl charges.

You also forget - Flybe rely on pax from NQY to LGW to fill a 78 seater. WOW rely on pax from PLH and NQY to fill a 50 seater. If 15-20 or so people travel out of Plymouth, the rest out of NQY are pure profit.

I think someone needs to re-think.

[GROUNDHOG]

Dash-7 Lover

Please read my post 86 again and you will see the words "if" and "generally". When ASW do offer a better deal than Flybe I will fly with them. I would regard adding 40 minutes to a 65 minute flight plus an extra landing as being pretty inconvenient though. For this next trip Flybe was quite a lot cheaper and more convenient as I am carrying a deal of excess baggage so that is why I am flying with them - simples!

The price you quote includes 20kgs of baggage, no baggage Flybe is cheaper and with 40kgs ( which I sometimes carry across the Atlantic) the difference is insignificant. I am sure LCY/PLH is great for some but no use to me.

I have a little experience in the economics of operating aircraft so read again my post 84 please. You must know ALL the facts before you can make assumptions on profitability.

Meanwhile back to Plymouth Airport!

[Dash-7 lover]

GROUNDHOG. Sorry, I was unaware that you were flying transatlantic and taking double the amount of baggage allowance. Try stating ALL the facts in your posts because my crystal ball is unserviceable.

[mathers_wales_uk]

Forgive me if im wrong but if your operating X-Y via Z then surely you have to pay 2 lots of landing & take-off fee's meaning that costs are signifcantly higher.

I haven't looked at the price model of both SZ & BE but if it is similar then could it be possibly that BE would only need 50% load and SZ may require 90% load to make a proffit.

Don't foget it's not bums on seats that are making the money but the amount they paid for them seats and how much they spend on board against cost of operation.

[jerboy]

Forgive me if im wrong but if your operating X-Y via Z then surely you have to pay 2 lots of landing & take-off fee's meaning that costs are signifcantly higher.

Remember that both PLG and SZ are both owned by Sutton Harbour Holdings. I'm not sure whether this is the case but I would imagine that the fees SZ pay at PLH are merely more than 'token', and are therefore very cheap.

Again I may be wrong...

[GROUNDHOG]

And of course if they are token then the airport is not earning any money....

[mathers_wales_uk]

You are probably correct but the extra burn/cost of fuel for Take-Off and Approach where less fuel is used during the cruise.

Not knowing the set-up of both airport but ATC costs for appraoches/landing. Handling costs etc can also add up.

Plus are the leading fares cheaper on BE or SZ? BE also has a larger brand and can allow connection for flights at various airports.

If SZ are paying token costs then i would imagine that they would encourage full paying airlines to use the airfield in order to make the costs up for SZ pauing cut rates (if they are).

[dalej123]

I have been told that an Airbus A319 can land on a 1200M runway which all my airport need to do is extend it by under 100m which i dont think is going to happen. It is stupid that they are cutting half the airport off to make way for houses.

Dale

[rogervisual]

Dale - unfortunatley its not that simple.If it was only a case of putting a 100m on the runaway they would of done it. They have to take into account runway end safety areas and protected slopes with regards to buildings etc near the airport.

[dalej123]

I know but i was just saying. Plymouth city airport need to expand to compete with exeter and newquay airports. If we don't, Plymouth airport could go down. We need more airlines but sutton harbour are not letting any into the airport.

[Boeing 77W]

By selling off the land for housing they're able to generate a large amount of funding for development of the rest of the airport facilities and reduce costs in the maintenance of those that were pretty much redundant, such as Runway 06/24.

Runway extension to 13/31 is now a possibility with the deal done on the land where the old factory stood by the threshold of 31. They've also recently installed brand new lighting systems and have many other plans on the horizon.

[WOWBOY]

By selling off the land for housing they're able to generate a large amount of funding for development of the rest of the airport facilities and reduce costs in the maintenance of those that were pretty much redundant, such as Runway 06/24.

Runway extension to 13/31 is now a possibility with the deal done on the land where the old factory stood by the threshold of 31. They've also recently installed brand new lighting systems and have many other plans on the horizon.

Agreed!. The selling of the land near Runway 06/24, is a positive thing - not negative. It will being more improvements and there is now a bigger chnace of runway expansion due to the sell off.

[rogervisual]

Plymouth city airport in some ways does not compete against Exeter and Newquay airports, in a way it competes against the railway network really.(obviously it does on the channel islands and irish routes.)
It does not have the land to expand mainly due to the short sighted Plymouth city council over the years ,selling parcels off every now and then, but local government only ever thinks up to 4-5 years. .
Its in the wrong place on hill and is too weather dependent.
The only real option to give it a long term future was the plan to move it to the sherford valley, which was one of the suggestions to the governments white paper on aviation 4-5 years ago. Unfortunatley it was looked on by people who could not see any futher than 5 -10 years ahead when the purpose of the white paper was looking towards the aviation needs for 30 years.

[rogervisual]

Plymouthair - don't hold your breath, those plans were probably written up a few years ago in a different economic climate. It would not surprise me if some of the development they talked about in the herald is delayed or scaled down and you would not blame them in doing so whilst we still have a uncertain economic future. Aviation his still suffering and i think there will still be a couple of airlines that go to the wall this year, its all about survival right now.

[dalej123]

Ok, So apart from the land for the factory now sold, Is there any news on the runway extension? I know that the max they can extend it to at the moment is 1,319m because the council are moaning about getting 150M on each side of the centre line, Any news for that? I think we do need to get the 150m Each side because then it can be extended to just over 1,600M because then we can get alot bigger aircraft such as EMB-190 and maybe even A318 because our runway can be extended to be bigger than London City. I have been told that another plan for the future is to try and get the A319 at Plymouth, Anyone heard this aswell?

Dale

[dalej123]

Ok Thanks PlymouthAir. I hope 2010 is a good year for the airport

[footster]

Rogervisual that plan for the Sherford Valley also relied on both Plymouth and Exeter being closed and sold to help finance the building of the new International Airport which was very quickly thrown out by Devon County Council and they subsiquently went on to sell Exeter to Balfour Beaty

[dalej123]

Would be nice to see plymouth expand

[oapilot]

Groundhog and Mathers,

Sorry to come to this a little late but there are a couple of other points to consider on the economics of the LGW runs.

Firstly, the Q400 costs are significantly higher than those of the 300, and that includes leasing costs. Please believe me, a half full 300 will make less loss than a third full 400. Also Flybe have the extra cost of HOTAC/positioning crew for NQY, which is usually hire car.

I acknowledge your point about LGW direct, but in truth Groundhog there is always ultimately a compromise. You are benefitting at present from the fact that there are two carriers on the route. If Flybe succeeded in forcing WOW off the route you may still have your nice convenient service but you will pay significantly more for it, if previous form holds true. Ultimately, if the route doesn't pay it will be dropped or reduced in frequency.

I suspect Flybe would love a monopoly in the Southwest, but it is unlikely that in the absence of Air Southwest you'll ever see regional aircraft permanently based West of Exeter, so the local community will have to take whatever rotations route through NQY and be grateful, or else drive to Exeter/Bristol if they want to fly.

You pays yer money and takes yer choice.

Skybus are a great little company, but LGW is an awful long way in a twotter!

PS sorry for drifting the thread again, but the maintainance of a proper airlink for the region is important so wanted to shove my twopen'rth in.

[GROUNDHOG]

oapilot: Agree with pretty much everything you say, I have no idea what the comparison on hours/cycles is typically between the two airlines nor was I aware Flybe were putting crews in Hotac. I guess eventually one or other will give up the route then as you rightly say fares will return to the pre competition level whoever is left on it. It was always BA's most profitable regional route.

As this is a Plymouth thread after all...

As I have often said in the NQY thread, these small regional airports will always be limited by the small catchment area and must seek revenue from elsewhere to stay open. As controversial as it may be one decent centrally situated regional airport with a proper network of ground links to replace NQY/PLH,/EXT and maybe even BRS would be a much better bet.... the chance of that happening is the same as filling 747's from Plymouth even if you built a runway that stretched half way to Salcombe!

[WOWBOY]

Plymouth is offically the fastest Growing airport in the UK. Up 34% on 2008.

That is great achievment for the airport. Hopefully 2010 brings mor routes and good news :)

[Dash-7 lover]

Not that difficult to achieve when you have one operator. A slight increase or decrease in schedules will make the figures jump spectacularly. Sounds good though....lol

[L G Double-Yew]

Still a pretty good growth story for Plymouth though, when you consider that every other airport in the South West is down. If you look at the CAA statistics for 2009, the "terminal pax" figure (so excluding transit pax) for Plymouth is up 17%. Then you look at the other south west airports, and it's a very different picture:

Newquay -19%
Exeter -17%
Bristol -10%