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308Win
11th Dec 2006, 13:05
I have just seen on the news that Mr Ahmedinajad of the Islamic Republic of Iran is hosting a conference on the Holocaust to discuss whether it really happened or not.

He says this is to test the West's convictions on the ideals of free speech.

Perhaps a western leader might like to host a conference on whether Islam was responsible for the enslavement of millions of people, the subjugation, conversion and slaying of hundreds of thousands from about AD640 onwards and the near extermination of a race in Turkey between 1905 and 1922.

Methinks the reponse might be somewhat different....

Any takers for this hot potato?:}

Buster Hyman
11th Dec 2006, 13:07
Well now, lets not be too hasty! We'll wait & see what they find out first shall we?


:rolleyes::ugh:

Wyler
11th Dec 2006, 13:09
The guy is a knob.

However, far better to let these clowns show their stupidity in public than muzzle them and increase their following. So, I find the law banning denial of the Holocaust as rediculous as this conference.

tony draper
11th Dec 2006, 13:23
Send the short arsed fecker a Polonium lollypop.:E

Wyler
11th Dec 2006, 13:26
Mr D. Methinks Mr Bush is thinking exactly the same. God help us all.

Tricky Woo
11th Dec 2006, 13:29
Yeah, and them Muslims were responsible for the blunting of hundreds of thousands of Christian swords during the Crusades.

TW

tony draper
11th Dec 2006, 13:30
Always thunk a decapitation strike is a much more sensible means of solving international problems than invasion,look what good a single .303 round could have done in say 1930.
:rolleyes:

Capt.KAOS
11th Dec 2006, 13:41
Is David Irving invited?

Holocaust denial is a criminal act in Germany, Austria and some other countries.

G-CPTN
11th Dec 2006, 13:57
David Irving is currently spending time at the Austrian's pleasure and expense I believe.
On 20 February 2006, he was sentenced to three years' imprisonment in Austria for denying the Holocaust.

Huck
11th Dec 2006, 14:01
I watched an overwhelming movie a few years ago - Conspiracy (http://imdb.com/title/tt0266425/), starring Kenneth Branagh. It is a real time depiction of the conference at Wannsee in 1942, when the Nazi middle management set up the Final Solution.

The characters are all normal military men and scientists, not monsters; some are actually likable in the beginning. In sort of a mob mentality moment they all agree to the cattle cars. Absolutely riveting.

It was on HBO in the states. Did it make it over to y'all?

RogerIrrelevant69
11th Dec 2006, 14:39
Sure did Huck and I have to say having watched the DVD probably 4 times now it is one of the most compelling films I have seen about the Holocaust. Based on a transcript of that conference's minutes it is one of the most chilling indictments against the Nazi's I have ever seen.

These Holocaust deniers (like Irving) are a bloody nuisance. Stupid ignorant oafs everyone of them but if they are just ignored they won't go away. They will just continue telling their lies until more people believe them. And who knows in a 100 years time a lot more people will believe them.

No every time they stick their stupid empty anti-Semitic heads above the parapets their lies must be shot down. Lest we forget.

Capt. Queeg
11th Dec 2006, 14:41
them Muslims were responsible for the blunting of hundreds of thousands of Christian swords during the Crusades
Nice one, T.....! :ok:

Twas nowhere near enough as it turns out, though...:(

a single .303 round

But sometimes, once you get going on something, it's hard to stop.

Huck
11th Dec 2006, 14:52
They will just continue telling their lies until more people believe them.

why not, it's working for those who claim:

- Iraq was somehow responsible for 9/11;

- Israel was somehow responsible for 9/11;

- TWA 800 was shot down;

- Princess Di was spied upon by the US (wait, scratch that one.....)

West Coast
11th Dec 2006, 15:33
"Holocaust denial is a criminal act in Germany, Austria and some other countries"

Never quite got that. One is an idiot for not believing it happened. Way to much empirical evidence and first hand accounts. That said, free speech within reason is just that free speech.

chiglet
11th Dec 2006, 18:38
That said, free speech within reason is just that free speech
Define "within reason" please
watp,iktch

finfly1
11th Dec 2006, 19:16
Clearly this conference is an idea whose time has not yet come. Too many people lived through it and have relatives who died in it to deny that it happened.

However, I was not aware that it was "against the law" to deny that it occurred. God help the US if they find out that they have somehow missed passing that one here.

Capt.KAOS
11th Dec 2006, 19:24
"Holocaust denial is a criminal act in Germany, Austria and some other countries"

Never quite got that. One is an idiot for not believing it happened. Way to much empirical evidence and first hand accounts. That said, free speech within reason is just that free speech.For the first (and probably the last) time this century I agree with you. However, this is the way the Germans (and Austrians) are coming to terms with their past.

con-pilot
11th Dec 2006, 19:49
It will be very interesting to see if they bring in or allow Holocaust survivors to testify or present evidence to prove that the Holocaust did indeed happen.

Anybody from Israel going to be invited? I kind of doubt it. :suspect:

I can't wait to see the UN's reaction on this matter. Like the old saying goes; "Who ya going to believe, me or your lying eyes?"

(And this guy may have control of a nuclear weapon. :uhoh: )

ORAC
11th Dec 2006, 21:04
Holocaust impossible, says Aussie in Tehran

Frederick Toben - the retired Adelaide high school teacher who denies the Holocaust took place - has dismissed as "mere puffery" historical evidence proving mass killings of Jews by the Nazis' deadly Zyklon-B gas during a speech in Tehran last night.

In his presentation, obtained by The Australian and denounced as obscene anti-Semitism by Jewish leaders, Dr Toben called "claims made by 'Holocaust' believers" about the mass gassings and burnings a "physical impossibility". Dr Toben is an amateur historian who set up the Adelaide Institute in 1994 to pursue his cause. He spent seven months in a German prison in 1999 for inciting racism.

He is a keynote speaker at a two-day conference in Iran, at the invitation of the Iranian Government, which has drawn speakers from around the world including David Duke, a former imperial wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, and French professor Robert Faurisson, who denies the existence of Nazi gas chambers.

Khaled Kasab Mahameed, a Palestinian lawyer invited to the conference, had hoped to challenge its Holocaust deniers but was denied a visa by Iranian authorities. No reason was given, but Mr Mahameed claims it may have been he has proclaimed his belief that the Holocaust did happen.....

con-pilot
11th Dec 2006, 21:20
Well that is a relief ORAC, it's nice to see that they are allowing both sides of the issue to be heard. :hmm:

Not! :mad:

Huck
11th Dec 2006, 21:30
I guess David D. is finished putting the roof back on his house down in Nawlins.....

Remember when Edwards ran against him in the '91 primaries? Edwards was seen as corrupt, but there were bumper stickers like "Vote For the Crook. It's Important." and "Better a lizard than a wizard."

West Coast
12th Dec 2006, 03:07
"Define "within reason" please"

Perhaps its easier to define what's not reasonable. Screaming fire in a crowded theater rises to the point of crossing over to the unreasonable side of the ledger.

Saying the earth is flat has cost believers and repeaters their life. Saying the holocaust didn't occur should only raise eyebrows and not send one to the clinker.

308Win
12th Dec 2006, 03:14
Yeah, and them Muslims were responsible for the blunting of hundreds of thousands of Christian swords during the Crusades.
TW

Yes they were, but only from about 1098 onwards when the first Crusade was sanctioned by Pope Urban II after over 300 years of rape, pillage, desecration of holy sites, forced conversions, destruction on churches and conversion of said buildings to Mosques, through Asia Minor,north Africa, and into Europe.

History seems skewed to think that the Crusades were bad and the nasty Christians were waging war against the innocent Muslims. It was a direct response to Imperial aggression and the sacking of various Christian empires and taking of numerous cities (including Jerusalem in 638 AD, which had always been in Christian hands).

Not seen the film mentioned on previous pages, but might search it out. Interstingly a lot of the mind game played by Hitler and the coercion of his people into doing such horrendous crimes against humanity are being mimicked by the jihadists. Scary thought considering the bile that is spewed day in day out about the so called "Religion of peace".

Blacksheep
12th Dec 2006, 06:05
Dr Toben called "claims made by 'Holocaust' believers" about the mass gassings and burnings a "physical impossibility". Its just four or five thousand a day and only the old, the weak, small children or 'unfit' were gassed and cremated. The majority were worked and starved to death and many were buried in mass graves.

Given the number of trains that rolled to a halt at the concentration camps every day and the number of survivors that were found at liberation, the figure of six million is perhaps an understatement.

I feel sad to share the same planet as the likes of Ahmeda-whatsit and this Toben character

henry crun
12th Dec 2006, 07:04
I am old enough to remember seeing the film news reports immediately after the war, showing the allied forces liberating some of the death camps.
The newspapers at that time also published many photos showing the horrible sights which greeted those troops.

It is a pity someone cannot attend this conference armed with several hours of that film, and a multi hour slide show of the still photos.
They could lock the doors and force the delegates to sit and watch what, I am sure, would sicken even the most hardened unbeliever.

Anyone who has seen the living skeletons pleading silently for help and crying at the thought that it had come at last; seen the bulldozers pushing huge piles of bodies into mass graves; heard the vivid descriptions of the smell from those who were there; seen the ovens with partly unburnt bodies still in place; seen the huge graves full of bodies that the nazis had not had time to fill in; and seen the huge piles of the ashes of those who had been so systematically murdered, would never doubt the truth of the holocaust again.

ORAC
12th Dec 2006, 07:29
They´re not all bad or bad - it´s just that the mad, bad, ones are running the asylum....

The Times: Iran students denounce Holocaust denial

Dozens of Iranian students burnt pictures of President Ahmadinejad and chanted “Death to the dictator” as he gave a speech at a university in Tehran yesterday. Never has the hardline leader faced such open hostility at a public event, which came as Iran opened a conference questioning whether Nazi Germany murdered six million Jews.

One student activist said that the protest was against the “shameful” Holocaust conference and the “fact that many activists have not been allowed to attend university”. The conference “has brought to our country Nazis and racists from around the world”, he added.

Mr Ahmadinejad responded by saying: “Everyone should know that Ahmadinejad is prepared to be burnt in the path of true freedom, independence and justice”, according to an Iranian students’ news agency. He accused the protesters of being “Americanised”.

The protest during a speech at Amir Tabir University unrelated to the Holocaust meeting will be embarrassing for Mr Ahmadinejad. He has portrayed Iran as a champion of free speech in hosting the two-day Holocaust conference, which has attracted revisionist historians who have served jail sentences in Europe and David Duke, an American former Ku Klux Klan leader.

Almost 70 researchers from France to Indonesia arrived at the plush conference centre in an affluent north Tehran suburb. The centre’s walls were festooned with posters claiming to debunk “myths” of the Holocaust, disputing whether smoke ever rose from the chimneys at Auschwitz and denouncing the film Schindler’s List, which tells of the Nazi industrialist who rescued more than 1,000 Jews.

But the conference has embarrassed many ordinary Iranians who are aware of the damage such events are inflicting on their country’s image...........

LordGrumpy
12th Dec 2006, 07:40
to the unreasonable side of the ledger.


The ledger in funery terms; is the large slab over the grave. Do you mean, to the unreasonable side of the ledger.
equates to death?

Flip Flop Flyer
12th Dec 2006, 11:04
Fascinating picture on the cover of the Jerusalem Post today. Picture of a Mullah, flanked by two Rabbi's (Moishe Arye Friedman of Austria and Aharon Cohen from England) at a press conference during this meeting in Tehran. Sadly, it would seem not only anti-jews are voicing this drivel.

According to the news in the JP, the conference is not so much about denying the Holocaust, but to voice an "alternative explanation" - all in the name of challenging the western idea of free speech of course. Intrestingly, it's not about challenging freedom of speech in general, only freedom of speech as approved by these nutcases. It's laughable.

I'm spending a few days here in sunny Tel Aviv, and the reactions I'm getting from the locals is mainly along the lines of "who gives a flying f.ck what these nutcases says". They're viewed not much differently than the flat earth society, and in my humble opinion should be treated as such - namely a bunch of tossers. Let them have their say. The best defence against a blatant lie has, and always will be, overwhelming evidence to prove them wrong. There'll always be a few who are either too dim, to ignorant or with a opposing political agenda who'll deny the truth.

I've had the displeasure of visiting Auswitch in person. Not something I would ever wish to do again, that place is pure evil. A very educating experience, enough to reduce this hard headed grownup to a sobbing boy.

Oh, and I had an uncle who perished in Bergen-Belsen. (No, he didn't fall from the watch tower!)

XXTSGR
12th Dec 2006, 11:32
FFF - agreed entirely. I have visited Belsen. Like you, I found it one of the most upsetting experiences of my life. How anyone can deny such an awful crime as the holocaust is beyond me.

MyData
12th Dec 2006, 11:46
I've had the displeasure of visiting Auswitch in person. Not something I would ever wish to do again, that place is pure evil. A very educating experience, enough to reduce this hard headed grownup to a sobbing boy.

Indeed. A visit to Auschwitz I and Auschwitz II - Birkenau, folllowed by a visit to the Flanders fields and Normandy landing sites should be mandatory for all. The full magnitude of these places can only be realised in person, seeing them on TV or in photographs just doesn't compare.

Huck
12th Dec 2006, 11:47
In college in 1985 I had an elderly history professor who taught "The Ascent of Man" series by Bronowski.

The final class of the semester she spent the last hour showing us silent, unedited footage seized from the Nazis of the camps. Seems these "snuff films" were passed around the wermacht for fun.

I'll never forget one scene - a close up of the face of a beautiful dead jewish woman, brown hair still falling around her shoulders. Then the camera slowly moved back - revealing her nude, emaciated body. She was being carried on the back of another prisoner to a mass grave. One does not forget sights like this, even 21 years later.

I was repulsed and, frankly, mad at her for giving me those permanent images in my mind. But now I understand what she was trying to prevent.

Ozzy
12th Dec 2006, 19:29
The Looney Iranian is now saying (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=2006-12-12T173514Z_01_L1213060_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAN-HOLOCAUST.xml&src=rss&rpc=22)Israel's days are numbered...he couldn't get much more explicit than that could he...:ugh:

Ozzy

Davaar
13th Dec 2006, 00:56
Have you all read "Obedience to Authority", by Stanley Milgram, Harper Perennial, 1975? It should sober the most complacent.

It is the report of the experiment, not at Wannsee but at Yale University,1960-1963, in which people were hired to inflict ever increasing electric shocks on a "subject". The subject, of course, was a volunteer and had given waivers of liability.

As the testers increased the power, the volunteer responded very mildly, then not mildly, then in agony, then pleading to be let go no matter what he had granted by waiver, and finally collapsing in a twitching coma.

Some of the testers quit, but many carried right on as they had undertaken to do. They went from 15 volts to 450 volts. One tester asked the professor in charge what to do when they had hit 255 volts: "I called the professor three times. And the third time he said, 'Just continue', so I gave him the next jolt. And then I didn't hear no more answer from him, not a whimper or anything. I said, 'Good God, he's dead; well, here we go, we'll finish him. And I just continued all the way through to 450 volts".

The irony is that the controls were not connected to anything. The people being tested were not the "volunteers" who had opted to undergo the shocks, but the "testers" who had opted to inflict them. It is a chilling document.

All of us lucky enough not to have been there at the time should thank God for that.

Two's in
13th Dec 2006, 01:14
Hmmmmmm... as abhorrent as this conference may be, you can't help but get the uncomfortable feeling that saying anything at all negative about Israel these days immediately puts you in the "Holocaust Denier" camp. It reminds me of the child abuse scandals in the North East of England in the eighties, where denials by innocent parents were regarded as further proof by Social Services that there was a huge conspiracy to cover up the crime. Many people do not want to deny the Holocaust; they just want to be able to hold Israel to the same standard of International accountability that the rest of us enjoy. Still, thank heavens they have always acted so reasonably and in the greater interests of the World for all these years, and nothing they do is ever morally questionable, otherwise we would be in a right old fix.

Apparently these ponderings make you an anti-semitic, jew-hating, arab loving, holocaust denier. Religion is a beautiful thing.

Ethel the Aardvark
13th Dec 2006, 06:57
It must be hard for Israel to comment on commisions after their investigations into the Sabra and Chantilla massacres. Not a proud day that one
It is a shame that a country that was born out of such horrendous acts of humanity are now doing much the same thing.

RogerIrrelevant69
13th Dec 2006, 07:15
Ethel the Aardvark,

You say Israel is doing "much the same thing" as the Nazi's. In my opinion that is an insane statement. Even in their darkest hour (enabling Christian militias murder 800 civilians in Sabra) they did not come close to a good day for the Nazi's. Don't forget while Israel is surrounded on all sides by avowed enemies, yes they do make mistakes and have indeed made some pretty awful ones, but in that part of the world drop your guard for a second and your enemy will automatically take advantage. It really doesn't matter what parties make up the Israeli government, they can never afford to or do drop their guard. Sometimes they go too far, we see that all the time, but in their situation that is what happens.

That does not make them 1% as bad as the Nazi's.

PanPanYourself
13th Dec 2006, 07:31
Perhaps a western leader might like to host a conference on whether Islam was responsible for the enslavement of millions of people, the subjugation, conversion and slaying of hundreds of thousands from about AD640 onwards and the near extermination of a race in Turkey between 1905 and 1922.

Congratulations 308win, you sound about as hateful and despicable as Ahmadinejad. Perhaps a Turkish leader might want to host a conference on European hypocrasy and selective appreciation of history.

You're just another typical Christian, thinking his religion is somehow better than everybody else's. News flash buddy, its just as murderous, pointless, stupid, backwards, fantasmical, and has caused as many needless deaths as anybody else's.

You want to talk about imperialistic violence and oppression, don't look back at thousands of years ago, look at what the British have done all over the world in the past few centuries, prat.


Note: Every thread where I suggest that Christianity might be as bad as Islam, or imply that the British aren't the perfectly innocent angels they make themselves out to be, ends up getting deleted. I hope that doesn't happen here, I wouldn't want to spoil anybody's fun.

Ethel the Aardvark
13th Dec 2006, 11:10
Roger I 69,
I don't think the men, women, children,grandmothers and even an uncomfirmed holocaust survivor who was living in Sabra would agree with you.
I think hate is hate whatever.
the continued use of lowlevel aircraft terrorising civillians and seen recently dropping phosphorus and cluster bombs will only increase the hate in the kids of today who become tomorrows freedom fighters.
I am not anti semitic but appalled with israel govt vision.
Whoops,Should I get extra locks on my doors now!

RogerIrrelevant69
13th Dec 2006, 13:11
Nelson Mandela once described Apartheid as the second worst atrocity of the 20th century after the Holocaust. He did not do this on the dead body count. He called these two atrocities the worst because they were both policies and instruments of the state to systematically deny and destroy the rights and lives of the excluded non-ruling communities. Both policies achieved this through property theft, imprisonment and ultimately, in the case of the Nazi's, mass murder. The way in which these policies were carried out robbed the victims of all they possessed, their dignity and most importantly their hope. No other regimes came close: Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein were all regimes you could survive under if you played the game. Those choices did not exist under the Nazi's or the National Party regime in South Africa. The only other 20th century regime that comes close is the Hutu regime in Rwanda where if you were a Tutsi you were murdered (while the world watched and did nothing).

The conflict in Israel and Palestine is not about the Israelis setting out to systematically destroy and murder Palestinians. Israel is desperately trying to hold on to what it has got. When you add to that the Iranian funded Hezbollah now openly trying to destroy the state of Israel from bases in Lebanon, what reaction can you expect? War of course. Innocent bystanders will die in any war. That is the nature of war nowadays. In the past Syria (amongst others) were the bankers of the Palestinian terrorists/freedom fighters/whatever of the 70's and 80's. The same outcome was achieved throughout that time. In that conflict, innocent bystanders died on all sides: Palestinian, Lebanese, Israeli, Muslim, Christian and Jew. And of course the hatred between these communities grew.

Like I said before this is not about genocide, it is about Israel fighting for its’ right to exist. Sometimes it seems only when Iran understands that the only way they will get the keys to Tel-Aviv, is by first taking direct nuclear hits on Iran, they will back off with all their money and stupidity.

West Coast
13th Dec 2006, 15:42
"he couldn't get much more explicit than that could he..."

I do believe Hitler was fairly outspoken about his beliefs as well. We should believe Ahmadinejad when speaks. Should something catastrophic happen, no one should say this came out of left field. The clues are obvious.

Ethel the Aardvark
14th Dec 2006, 06:39
Roger I

I quite agree with most of your irrelevants but you are beginning to sound like an israeli press release.
I not too sure how an occupying force can fight to exist in any other way.
Its a shame that pregnant palestinian women are made to wait at roadblocks whilst in labour and seeking medical help or children are openly shot for throwing stones etc
Maybe Israel should consider not being the ocupiers.
ps i like writing about this crap as it helps me keep my mind of things!

RogerIrrelevant69
14th Dec 2006, 07:32
Ethel the Aardvark

Well if it is crap or irrelevant to you then don't comment about it. It is extremely relevant and un-crap-like to people who live in the Middle East and those who take a wider world view.

Bang on all you like about individual atrocities suffered by the Palestinians either intentionally or accidentally. I could probably match them one for one with reports of attacks against Israelis and Lebanese Christians. But that would prove nothing. It would only underline the scale of the problem now, not it's roots and certainly not it's solutions.

XXTSGR
14th Dec 2006, 07:57
Roger, can you please remind me - how many Palestinians have been killed by Israelis in the last year, and how many Israelis killed by Palestinians? One for one? I think not.

RogerIrrelevant69
14th Dec 2006, 08:12
XXTSGR

Do you have the figures? Do you have the percentages? Not sure when this discussion got limited to the last year. If you want to rake over the past 30 years, I'm sure there will not much disparity. But that is not the point. Each death is a tragedy, not a point won on a league table.

Hard fact is that Hezbollah and Iran and Syria all refuse to recognise the right of Israel to exist. Until they stop trying to wipe out Israel, the violence will not end. Fact.

XXTSGR
14th Dec 2006, 08:33
Until they stop trying to wipe out Israel, the violence will not end. Fact.Until Israel stops trying to pretend that the Palestinians either (a) don't exist or (b) have no right to exist or (c) have no rights to anything except to disappear and die in a hole somewhere, all the time stealing their land, their jobs, their farms, their very means of existence, the violence will not end. Fact.

So where does this get us? Precisely nowhere. The continued attitude of the Israeli government will get us nowhere even faster. They insisted on marginalising Fateh and Yasser Arafat's leadership and making it impossible for them to run the Palestinian territories. So what did they get in return? Of course, they got a more extreme Hamas leadership instead. Brilliant!

Sooner or later, people will have to talk to each other.

RogerIrrelevant69
14th Dec 2006, 08:39
Well I think a bit of collective neck-winding in is required.

Getting the thread back to it's original point which is the Holocaust Denial conference or whatever those morons have decided to call it. One of their key points (in common with Ethel the Aardvark) seems to be that Israel are as guilty as the Nazi's. That flys in the face of historical evidence, fact and reason. That is my point. I do not justify the atrocities carried out intentionally or accidentally by Israel or Hezbollah. But I am buggered if I am going to agree that Israel is as guilty as the Nazi's. Like I said before: not 1% as guilty.

And of course people have to talk to each other but until Hezbollah recognise Israel has a legitimate right to exist, talks are pointless and impossible.

Wyler
14th Dec 2006, 08:54
The Holocaust happened and it is a blight on history.

I am, however, getting fed up with having it rammed into my face every time someone takes an opposite view to Israel or the powerful Jewish lobbies in the West. There are horrible things happening today i.e the death of thousands of children every week in Africa. I am also dismayed at the way our Government/media buckles at the very mention of the word 'Holocaust'.

What is happening in Iran is about as exciting as a UFO convention in Roswell, and it is attended by the same calibre of people. A sideshow, nothing more.

Israel will always receive unqualified support from the USA because of it's strategic importance in the region. This support will continue at the expense of countless victims, military and civilian.

I once saw a small piece on the news in which an elderly Palestinian gentlemen was asked about the conflict. The subject of Suicide Bombers came up. 'Disgusting', he said, 'but it is the only guided weapon we are allowed to have'. Counter that with a smiling Colin Powell, at a Jewish event in New York, announcing another 9 Billion Dollars of military aid to Israel. After the standing ovation he went on to say 'There is plenty more where that came from'. I admire that man but I was aghast at his arrogance.

I lived in Jordan for a few years and worked alongside some Palestinians. I fear that they are almost beyond redemption because, after decades of conflict, they are almost ferrel in their outlook. This makes any kind of peaceful, sustainable, solution ever more unlikely. It is a crying shame.

In conclusion, the Holocaust happened and will never be forgotten, but I have no love for Israel or its methods.

frostbite
14th Dec 2006, 12:17
Interesting programme on Palestinian 'Collaborators' on R4 this a.m. - 'Crossing Continents'.
Apparently there are hundreds/thousands of Palestinians who have been supplying information to Israel in return for money and 'protection'.

All interviewed complained of betrayal and abandonment by Israel.

pigboat
14th Dec 2006, 16:04
What is happening in Iran is about as exciting as a UFO convention in Roswell, and it is attended by the same calibre of people. A sideshow, nothing more.


Except, of course, this Roswellian convention is being hosted by a man who has declared that the Jewish state should be wiped off the face of the earth, is actively seeking the nuclear methods to do just that and is sitting atop a shit load of oil to pay for it. You have the luxury of believing his rants to be those of an idiot. The Jews have to take them at face value.

Capt.KAOS
14th Dec 2006, 16:24
Nelson Mandela once described Apartheid as the second worst atrocity of the 20th century after the Holocaust. He did not do this on the dead body count. He called these two atrocities the worst because they were both policies and instruments of the state to systematically deny and destroy the rights and lives of the excluded non-ruling communities. Both policies achieved this through property theft, imprisonment and ultimately, in the case of the Nazi's, mass murder. The way in which these policies were carried out robbed the victims of all they possessed, their dignity and most importantly their hope. No other regimes came close: Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein were all regimes you could survive under if you played the game. Those choices did not exist under the Nazi's or the National Party regime in South Africa. The only other 20th century regime that comes close is the Hutu regime in Rwanda where if you were a Tutsi you were murdered (while the world watched and did nothing).

Mandela in a memo (http://www.alinaam.org.za/library/mandela.htm) to Thomas Friedman:

"Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children."

West Coast
14th Dec 2006, 16:47
XXTSGR

Roger posts a factual statement about many of its neighbors refusing to even recognize its right to exist and you post a week kneed opinion in your lettered response. Argue with the facts and not opinion.

RogerIrrelevant69
14th Dec 2006, 19:38
Well Nelson Mandela has made the analogy and so has Desmond Tutu. But I do not agree and am not alone. Arguements on both sides of the use the term apartheid are summed up well in:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_Israeli_apartheid

Read it all, both sides are represented. It's a good well researched document.

But let me ask the Israel haters this. Suppose you were born in Israel as a Jewish Israeli, grew up there and wanted to stay there for the rest of your life. Suppose every neighbouring country that surrounded your country wanted to kill you or kick you out into the sea. Suppose within your borders were people funded, trained and harboured by these hostile neighbours to kill you and your family for them. How would you react? Run away or fight?

UL730
14th Dec 2006, 21:43
One was somewhat surprised to learn last night whilst viewing the British Comedy Awards on television that Sacha Baron Cohen had apologised for Borat’s absence. He was not able to attend and collect his award as Borat was the guest of honour at the Holocaust Denial Conference.

A day after the conference devoted to denying that the Holocaust ever happened, the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad held another conference to deny that the earlier conference ever happened.

“Do people honestly believe that I hosted a Holocaust denial conference?" Ahmadinejad asked the delegates. "Next thing you know they'll be claiming I'm developing nuclear weapons."

Good to see Borat at work on sensitive diplomatic matters. :D

Capt. Queeg
15th Dec 2006, 05:14
If an "Islam Conference" was set up to explain to the world in general all the reasons why this allah character obviously does not exist except as a figment of the imaginations of a billion or so of the most backward and ignorant people in the world (generally speaking), then there'd be embassies attacked, flag-burnings and cars set on fire - worldwide, for days.

They have a bullsh!t conference attemptng to prove the world is flat and certain things never happened and the enlightened world remains calm, and indeed, laughs at them....

Can't we just nuke the lot of them?

XXTSGR
15th Dec 2006, 07:48
But let me ask the Israel haters this. Suppose you were born in Israel as a Jewish Israeli, grew up there and wanted to stay there for the rest of your life. Suppose every neighbouring country that surrounded your country wanted to kill you or kick you out into the sea. Suppose within your borders were people funded, trained and harboured by these hostile neighbours to kill you and your family for them. How would you react? Run away or fight?Let me pose the other question. Suppose you were born in what is now the state of Israel as an Arab - a Palestinian - grew up there, farmed there as your parents and ancestors had for generations and then a bunch of interlopers took away your farm, threw you in a refugee camp such as Ramallah or a few others, built luxury homes for Jews on your land, denied you access to anything but the most basic amenities and killed ten of your friends and relatives for every one Jew that is killed by the militants. How would you react? Run away or fight?

tony draper
15th Dec 2006, 08:07
I think a good plan would be to give the West bank back to Jordan and Gaza Strip back to Egypt let them sort it out, after all they were the ones who owned it ,not the Palestinians.
:cool:

Ethel the Aardvark
15th Dec 2006, 08:44
Roger I
I apologise, the Israeli army are not as murderous as the Nazis.
Wheras the Nazis murdered millions of civilian men women and children
The Israeli army is only doing it to a thousands and in a much user friendly manner.
I did write previously that this is crap and thats because it is all crap, me ranting on will do preciously zip in adding any relevance to your irrevelancy!
The philospher Epictus did once say " man is not affected by world events but only the view that he takes of them "

RogerIrrelevant69
15th Dec 2006, 10:21
E the A - no comment, no point.

XXTSGR,

While we are at it why don't we insist that:

- all the whites leave SA (4 million)
- all of Scottish settler origin (the Prods) leave NI (about 1 million)
- all non-native Australian's leave Australia (15 million)
- all non-native American's leave America (about 250 million)
- all Spanish origin settlers leave South America (over 500 million)
- etc, etc, etc, in fact why don't we just all roll over and die

It's the history of the planet. Get used to it. You can't change history. It happened.

In the middle east both sides could try talking again IF Hezbollah + Iran + Syria acknowledge the right of Israel to exist. Until then there will be no talks, no progress and a lot more violence.....and that is stating the blindingly obvious.

Choxolate
15th Dec 2006, 10:28
Let me pose the other question.How about answering the question you were asked - classic politicians' trick answer a question by asking the same question reversed. Old B'liar does it all the time

cavortingcheetah
15th Dec 2006, 11:01
:hmm:

There was once a friendly little fellow whose first names were Lev Davidovich Bronstein. He was born in 1879 and died in Mexico after someone had stuck an ice axe in his head, in 1940. He once made the observation that:

'Civil rights are a bourgeois fraud!'

This statement, whilst being an amazingly accurate precursor of what was to become historical fact, is astoundingly, if rather humorously, accurate.
Some may remember this Lev Bronstein fellow by his adopted name: Leon Trotsky, son of a Jewish farmer, escapee from the Gulag and one of the architects of the Red Army.
Poor old David Irving, his human rights woefully abused, will languish in an Austrian prison for another two to ten years, for having insinuated that perhaps the holocaust death toll has been exaggerated. Perhaps incarceration is a just and suitable reward for the heinous uttering of such an historian? But someone, somewhere, muttered something about free speech?
But one rather pities the poor old Russians though. Stalin's regime killed some thirty million of them; but that's the acceptable face of political extermination? The perpetrators were Communists/Socialists not Fascists/Neo-Cons. Yes, a perfectly satisfactory state of affairs.
Mr Putin though, might be rather annoyed were there to be a conference held to debate the extent of the efficiency of Stalin's concentration camps. Such ire on the part of the Russian president could impact rather unhappily upon Europe's winter gas supplies?
'The Holocaust is an event, for want of a better word, which tends to ignore all its victims other than those of one race. It is state funded, privately funded and an immensely powerful icon in the minds of millions. Perhaps it is time, a generation onwards, not so much to forget the mantra, but to take it in balance in the history of the past so that we may better shape that of the future?:hmm:

cavortingcheetah
15th Dec 2006, 11:13
:hmm:

There are such subtle differences in words are there not?

Epictetus, that well known and popular philosopher of the Stoic school is reputed to have said:

'We are disturbed not by events, but the views which we take of them.'

Perhaps not quite crystalline caviar but still, food for pensive reflection?
:)

XXTSGR
15th Dec 2006, 11:14
Choxolate, I will answer the Irrelevant one's questions when he answers mine.

BTW, answering a question with another question was also a favourite tactic of Jesus Christ, if the Holy Bible is to be believed. I think Tony B. Liar would be proud to be compared with Him.

cheetah, it's not often I agree with you, but I do concur with your final paragraph. I'm not sure what Trotsky has to do with it, and I'm not sure if anyone here has actually stated or implied in any way that they approve of Stalin's purges and atrocities. David Irving is as stupid as he is irrelevant. This "conference" itself is also an irrelevancy. The trouble is what lies behind it. Ahmedinadinnerjacket is a dangerous man and he has ambitions to become more dangerous still. What worries me is that Bush and Blair are not exactly going about removing his influence the right way.

Choxolate
15th Dec 2006, 11:20
BTW, answering a question with another question was also a favourite tactic of Jesus Christ, if the Holy Bible is to be believed. I think Tony B. Liar would be proud to be compared with Him.
And by implication putting yourself in the same category too.

XXTSGR
15th Dec 2006, 11:32
And a lot of other people as well. I don't compare myself with anyone, generally - that leads only only to either despair or pride. I merely point out it's not an invalid debating tactic and that your comment was largely irrelevant to the subject.

So, would you like to stop the ad hominem attacks and make some contribution to the subject?

RogerIrrelevant69
15th Dec 2006, 12:15
I notice that both Ethel the Aardvark and XXTSGR have now resorted to using my Viz based pseudonym as some sort of stick to counter my position. While I understand their pseudonyms are eminently more sensible than mine, I feel that resorting to that tactic is just sad.

PPRune argument going badly? Well lets try: attacking bad spelling/bad grammar, name, size of willy, the usual troll like bollix.

Instead of addressing a key question in this - and that is the acknowledgement of Israel's right to exist - we get the emotive/tabloidish list of crimes commited against the Palestinians and the childish claim that Israel behave like Nazi's. Don't bother arguing, just keep repeating it in the hope it will stick.

Of course (warning: sarcastic bit) the real reason why the Nazi's murdered 12 million Jews, Poles, Gypsies, Socialists, gays, physically and mentally disabled people of all ages was that:

- they kept firing rockets at the "Aryan" farmhouses
- they kept kidnapping the "Aryans" and killing them
- they kept blowing themselves up in crowded public areas to kill as many "Aryans" as possible
- they kept getting infinite sums of money from neighbouring countries and launching all out war on the "Aryans"
- they kept telling their youth that if they joined in in any of the above activities they would go to heaven and be meet by a dozen willing virgins.

The things they don't tell you in history, eh?

cavortingcheetah
15th Dec 2006, 12:21
:hmm:


Trotsky: Amusing little architect of social disorder and extreme political thought. A Jew, as were so many who fomented the Russian revolution, and an architect of social anarchy. This destructive legacy was well recognized by Hitler whose dislike and distrust of Jews was based in no small part on his perception of the effect that they had had upon European political upheaval.
Trotsky's comments on civil rights and front line warfare would do credit to the most hard line, battle scarred officer in the SS.
David Irving, a recidivist historian of note and no fool, has been immolated upon the altar of political expediency. Is it reasonable that we should be expected to respect the institution called 'The Holocaust' when it, decked in its funereal finery, becomes responsible for the long term imprisonment of a man whose only crime was to exercise whatever right to free speech and thought he might have had and question the statistics involved?
One might find a relevance here of course! The crime was an Austrian one! A crime that restricts the right to freedom of speech! This from the land that gave us Hitler!
Foresooth!!!:E :eek:

XXTSGR
15th Dec 2006, 12:24
Roger, I have several times before, on this board, acknowledged the right of Israel to exist.

What I am waiting for is some acknowledgement by the American Jewish lobby whose representatives have been seen a few times ( ;) ) here and by the rightie-haties of both sides of the Atlantic as well as one or two Israelis who are known here of the Palestinians' right to more than mere existence, and some acknowledgement of their grievances against the state of Israel.

ORAC
15th Dec 2006, 12:31
BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The European Union accused Iran on Friday of destabilising the Middle East with its nuclear programme and threats towards Israel, in a significant hardening of the 25-nation bloc's tone towards Tehran.

A tough statement drafted for adoption by EU leaders at a summit also condemned Iran's questioning of the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews. "The European Council expresses its concern about the negative impact of Iranian policies on stability and security in the Middle East," the draft statement said. The declaration reflected disillusion with Tehran after years of fruitless negotiations between the three leading EU powers -- Britain, France and Germany -- and Iran on the Islamic Republic's nuclear programme, which the West suspects is aimed at developing atomic weapons.

Those talks collapsed in October when Iran rejected U.N. demands that it suspend uranium enrichment activities that it says are for civilian energy purposes.

"The European Council deplores Iran's failure to take the steps required by the International Atomic Energy Agency board of governors and the U.N. Security Council, and agrees that this could only have negative consequences for relations between the EU and Iran," the draft said. It said the EU "expresses deep concern at the Iranian government's recent statements concerning the EU and individual member states, as well as its threats towards Israel and the continuing deterioration of human rights and political freedoms of its citizens".

Tehran cancelled a regular meeting of the EU-Iran human rights dialogue due this month.

Referring to this week's international gathering in Tehran questioning the Holocaust, the draft said: "The EU condemns any denial of the Holocaust as a historical fact, either in whole or in part, and therefore firmly rejects the underlying premise and the objectives of the conference."

RogerIrrelevant69
15th Dec 2006, 12:46
XXTSGR

First time you have acknowledged Israel's right to exist on this thread.

Now that is relevant.:)

Oh and by the way if any one else wants to accuse me of being an Israeli plant, member of Mossad, part of the American Jewish lobby or whatever - don't bother - I'm an Irishman of Christian descent. Find another pidgeon hole.

XXTSGR
15th Dec 2006, 12:59
What is far more relevant is that you don't acknowledge any of the Palestinian's grivances whatsoever. Whatever your origins (and I have not tried to pigeonhole you at all) it is clear "where you are coming from" as the popular idiom has it.

Capt. Queeg
15th Dec 2006, 13:10
Hey XXTSGR, a (nother) quick question for your in-tray pile......

Many people are firmly on one side or the other in this issue of the Palestinian and their terrorists vs the Israelis and their army.

Now I don't know a lot about you at all but I believe you are in the UK. I am also under the impression you also an Islamic. Apologies if I'm wrong about either one.

The point is, I'm presuming you are not either Israeli or Palestinian. So given that the Israelis had a hostorical claim to the land (from a long time ago) well before the Palestiniasn did, as I understand it, your own personal argument over "ownership" of those lands could be slanted either way.

But you come down firmly on the side of the Palestinians, who happen to be islamic, also.

Now my question is, do you side with the Palestinians purely because you happen to share the same faith with them? Honestly...

I dunno, it seems like the jews anywhere in the world back the Israelis and the islamics anywhere in the world back the Palestinians, regardless of whatever shitty acts are perpetrated by one lot against the other.

Religion shouldn't come into it but from where I am in the world, I can see that it does, well before any other notions of right and wrong.

RogerIrrelevant69
15th Dec 2006, 13:42
XXTSGR,

God Almighty who does not acknowledge the Palestinians have grievances? I would have to be deaf, blind and stupid not to recognise they have many serious grievances. You really need me to add to the chorus? Even most of the Israeli cabinet acknowledge that the Palestinians have many serious grievances.

What I am about here is not joining the obvious Guardian/Independent reader sheep but is about saying "hang on Israel and it's citizens have rights too. The right to exist, the right to protect themselves".

Good evening.

XXTSGR
15th Dec 2006, 13:46
Roger - thank you acknowledging that.

Capt. Queeg - where did you get the impression that Israelis have prior claim over Palestinians? Either way it doesn't matter. Both Jews and Muslims have a right to life and to enjoy that life peacefully. So why are Jews in Israel treating Palestinians the way they do?

Choxolate
15th Dec 2006, 14:13
XXTSGR "So why are Jews in Israel treating Palestinians the way they do?"

and vica-versa

"So why are Palestinians (et al) (not) in Israel treating Israelis the way they do?"

Damn good question as this is the nub of the issue

Because they have irreconcilable differences? because historically it has always been so? because they hate each other? I really do NOT know, but somehow it has to be stopped - but I have no idea how.

cavortingcheetah
15th Dec 2006, 14:14
:hmm:

One should remember that the name 'Holocaust' is applied to the genocide of the minority groups of Europe and North Africa by the Nazis and their collaborators.
Yad Vashem, Jerusalem, in its mission statement seeks to place a Jewish perspective on the holocaust and to pass down the Jewish part in this tragedy to the children of Abraham. At the same time, Yad Vashem openly acknowledges the victimization and murder of those who were not of Jewish descent.
In holding a conference on the topic in question, the Iranians hold to scorn the memory of a multitude of souls, not just Jewish ones. Many were the different classes of people who wandered through the portals of freedom searching for work; no doubt a fair few Muslims wandered through the terrible jaws of jolly old Auschwitz as well!
Perhaps Sir Jonathan Sacks should remind the people of Britain that the holocaust is for all, not just the people of his faith. It might be a timely reminder of consequences still to come for those who may be living under a powerful socialist government, led by an articulate but congenital liar. A state where democracy is but a political term. Where censorship is rigorously enforced, freedom of speech curtailed, and state security omnipresent. Cry the beloved country? Rule Britannia?:E

PanPanYourself
15th Dec 2006, 15:06
I dunno, it seems like the jews anywhere in the world back the Israelis
Absolutely false. There is a very big difference between a Jew and a Zionist, I suggest you look into it. Did you not see how many Jews were at that conference???

the islamics anywhere in the world back the Palestinians
Also untrue, albeit not so poignantly. I personally have absolutely no respect for people who let their religion or nationality cloud their judgement. An intelligent and honest person should be able to admit when their country has done wrong, or their religious leaders have led them astray. Failing that, you're just another mindless drone, in my humble opinion.

I am foremost a member of the human race, then a citizen of this world, then an agnostic. I try my best to give equal and due consideration to both sides of an argument before forming an opinion. You're going to point to the fact that I've specified Turkey as my location and call me an Islamic, nothing could be further from the truth.

My opinion is that recently Israel has been a disproportionate aggressor in the region and deserves international condemnation. Take it for what its worth.

XXTSGR
15th Dec 2006, 15:09
Choxolate - Several times in the past it has seemed that Arabs and Israelis have come close to talking which is, let's face it, the only way the situation will ever get resolved.

Sadly, each time it has happened, some extremist idiot has thrown a spanner in the works by, for example, assassinating Yitzhak Rabin. What is needed is pressure from outside to bring all to a negotiating table. Unfortunately, pressure from the USA is unlikely to be applied and, by extension, from the UK with the current regime.

Capt. Queeg
15th Dec 2006, 18:03
Capt. Queeg - where did you get the impression that Israelis have prior claim over Palestinians? My history could be a little rusty but I thought the Romans kicked the jews out just after Christ, re-named it Palaestina and let the Philistines (Palestinians??) who were largely "sea-people" move in from their cities around the Gaza area.

Okay, it's been a couple of millenia, let's say they both have a claim to certain parts, so why are certain other nations so hellbent on denying the jews their own area?

I'm not favouring one over the other. Anyone who targets women and children with bombs, whether smart-bombs or the strap-on variety, deserves condemnation but it's hard to determine anymore who is the aggressor and who is the respondent. They are all a bunch of murderous cnuts in that part of the world, on all sides.

Are one lot worse than the other? If the Palestinians had the gear (tanks, Apaches, Eagles, etc...) would they be any less barbaric to the Israelis?

Doubt it...

Keef
15th Dec 2006, 22:27
Capt Queeg made the point I was going to - the Palestinians are the descendants of the Philistines. They and the Israelis/Israelites have been at each others' throats, off and on, for something like 3,000 years.

Sadly, it's not likely to be solved any time soon, It will take a great statesman (or two) to sort the mess out. Politicians aren't up to it. Firing rockets at each other, or throwing any kind of munition, or bombing innocents isn't going to solve anything either. The trouble is, that message seems not to get through.

I despair when I read about suicide bombers being promised this and that in the next life. I likewise despair when I read about the dire things being perpetrated on the Palestinians in Israel.

For Ahmedinawotsit to come out with the idea for this conference just shows that his interest is in destabilising matters even further - presumably so that he can grab some more land/subject some more people to oppression.

Even if there were an answer, I don't think some of these folk would want to know. War and hostility have become their raison d'etre - in direct opposition to what is taught by the religions that they claim to espouse.

parabellum
16th Dec 2006, 10:11
"My opinion is that recently Israel has been a disproportionate aggressor in the region and deserves international condemnation. Take it for what its worth."


I'll certainly take that for what it is worth Pan Pan - absolutely nothing!

From the time Israel left southern Lebanon until the time they recently invaded southern Lebanon Hezbollah fired in excess of two thousand rockets into northern Israel, sheer provocation. Hezbollah hide behind the skirts of their women and the prams of their children and care nothing of the causalities. Israel has been publicly threatened with being wiped off the face of the earth, has Israel made any such threats against it's Arab neighbours?

Ethel the Aardvark
16th Dec 2006, 13:05
I hope more of the Israeli military refuse to carry out their missions.
For example several airforce pilots refused to continue bombing civilian targets.
Do they still have a job and are they now labeled anti zionists?

Would'nt it be a positive move if the children of all these trouble spots could enjoy a safe childhood and even play with other kids with different beliefs.
Then maybe in a few generations it all would only be us old farts bleeting on about it all

Choxolate
16th Dec 2006, 14:15
Read "Lord of the Flies" if you really believe that the lovely little darlings are all perfect and pure but become polluted by their parents prejudices. Nothing more vicious than a gang of kids with a grudge.

PanPanYourself
18th Dec 2006, 08:03
I'll certainly take that for what it is worth Pan Pan - absolutely nothing!
Well if my impartial and unbiased observation is worth nothing to you, thats fine. Keep listening to people who have a stake in this conflict, and they'll tell you what you want to hear. Forgive me if I want to be fair to both sides, I have no grudge against or loyalty toward either side.

Yes, Hezbollah's methods are deplorable and highly immoral, but what I said was "Israel has been a disproportionate aggressor". Look at the number of Israelis killed in the past few years and compare it to the number of Lebanese and Palestinians killed and you'll see I'm absolutely right. Israel might not publicly say "lets wipe so and so off the map" but actions speak louder than words.

parabellum
18th Dec 2006, 10:05
Well, one very big reason why the casualties are greater on one side than the other is that the Israelis spend millions of $ on public shelters for their people whilst Hezbollah, quite overtly, hide among the civilian population who have no shelters to go to. The shelters that Hezbollah did construct were for their exclusive use and intended for the prosecution of terrorist acts.

Don't know if you have ever been in the armed forces Pan Pan but never go in 'soft' or half hearted, also don't forget that the Israelis are fighting for their existence. As has been discussed at length, the media and particularly the BBC, did Israel no favours in reporting the recent conflict and apportioning blame as they thought fit, according to their own very obvious political leanings. Each report would be about two minutes in Israel and ten in Lebanon but assiduously avoiding comment on the recent whereabouts of Hezbollah and the fact that they hid among the women and children.

XXTSGR
18th Dec 2006, 10:40
the Israelis are fighting for their existenceThat's precisely how the Palestinians feel, too. And they see all the money the USA gives Israel and all the weaponry and armoured bulldozers and helicopter gunships it buys them. Shame they can't build themselves shelters, isn't it? Some can't even build themselves decent housing.

PS How does one hide "overtly?"

parabellum
18th Dec 2006, 22:08
"How does one hide "overtly?" - Hezbollah make no effort to conceal the fact that when in hiding they do it among the civilian population.

"That's precisely how the Palestinians feel,"
No shortage of cash or housing in the Lebanon though.

Israel has not threatened to wipe it's neighbours off the face of the earth, either. There might be a bit more cash to go around in Gaza, for instance, if Yasser Arafat and his cohorts hadn't syphoned most of it off for their own personal use over a period of many years and I believe corruption is still rife within the Palestinian 'organisation'.

XXTSGR
19th Dec 2006, 07:06
"That's precisely how the Palestinians feel,"
No shortage of cash or housing in the Lebanon though.Interesting - so your only answer is that they should abandon the place where they've lived for God knows how long, farmed, brought up children and grandchildren and leave?

Interesting.

"The Jews are here now - if you want a shit life, stay by all means - otherwise, get the :mad: out."

Sorry parabellum, but you are just sanctioning theft from an entire people. That stinks. And if your attitude reflects that of the Israelis, it's small wonder that the Palestinians are fighting as hard as they are.

StbdD
19th Dec 2006, 07:38
What other countries in the Middle East have booted the Palestinians from "their lands"?

Lebanon
Syria
Jordan
Arguably Egypt

Perhaps the best solution is for all to lay down arms and work it out. I'm sure the Arab Muslim countries would be happy to give back their Palestinian lands as a show of brotherly love. After all they stole them from the palestinians to begin with. (oh, wait, someone else is accused of that)

There is now an opportunity for the Palestininans to make a country where they are and stop the fighting. Instead, they decide to fight themselves. The nasty west isn't doing it, they are doing it to their own people.

Then a realistic discussion might be had.

Just an idea.

Wipeout
19th Dec 2006, 07:48
A realistic discussion? On this subject?

I admire your optimism....

parabellum
19th Dec 2006, 08:21
"Interesting - so your only answer is that they should abandon the place where they've lived for God knows how long, farmed, brought up children and grandchildren and leave?"

I didn't say they should leave and as history shows us, the Israelites have been there every bit as long as the Palestinians - get it into your head, There is no theft it is just your kind of rhetoric that gets people on the streets shooting each other.

Immediately after WW2 the Russians, aided by their Bulgarian allies, took thousands of young Palestinian men away to re-educate them and teach them terrorism, they were then fed back into the new state of Israel, not to terrify the Israelis but to intimidate and terrify their own people into leaving Israel and to create a refugee problem for the West, it seems to have worked.

StbD - Other countries that have thrown out their Palastinian brothers are all the Gulf States immediately after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait - The Palastinian refugess camps in Kuwait were the largest in the Middle East.

You have to lift your head out of the sand a bit XX and look at the complete picture, there is no more reason for the Palestinians to abandon their homeland than there is for the Israelis, whose rights are equally established, to abandon or be driven out of theirs. For years they lived side by side and it was outside influences that stirred up the trouble, mainly from behind the Iron Curtain.

RogerIrrelevant69
19th Dec 2006, 09:17
Parabellum,

It seems to boil down to this for XXTSGR:

- it's all Israel's fault. Everything.
- and it's all paid for by America so it's their fault too.
- wouldn't the world be a far better place if Israel did not exist.
- but as it does exist, Israel should not defend itself - until it does not exist.
- the Palestinians are entirely blameless.
- the Palestinians are well within in their rights to kill anyone who gets in their way and must not be criticized for it as apparently that's not politically correct in Islington anymore.
- Arafat and his buddies did not steal all the money they were given to run the new Palestine Authority, it is resting in an account in Switzerland.
- Hezbollah, who now run the new Palestine Authority, are entirely justified in wanting to wipe Israel off the map.

Disagree with any of the above points and you are just plain wrong and have not taken into account the suffering of the Palestinians - where within lies all the solutions to such a simple problem.

And so it goes on....I'd give up if I were you.

XXTSGR
19th Dec 2006, 09:46
parabellum, if you think there is no theft, perhaps you should speak to a few Palestinians, and find out how they have found their farms removed from them and given to Jews. Find out how the wall is separating communities from their farms. Find out how their land has been built on to provide luxury homes for Jews. Talk to those refugees living in places like Ramallah who have been forcibly removed from their homes and crammed into dumps.

If you did not intend they should leave, why your comment about Lebanon?

Roger, I have at no time said that - it's all Israel's fault. Everything.
- and it's all paid for by America so it's their fault too.
- wouldn't the world be a far better place if Israel did not exist.
- but as it does exist, Israel should not defend itself - until it does not exist.
- the Palestinians are entirely blameless.
- the Palestinians are well within in their rights to kill anyone who gets in their way and must not be criticized for it as apparently that's not politically correct in Islington anymore.
- Arafat and his buddies did not steal all the money they were given to run the new Palestine Authority, it is resting in an account in Switzerland.
- Hezbollah, who now run the new Palestine Authority, are entirely justified in wanting to wipe Israel off the map.

Far from everything is Israel's fault. The rest of "the West" have to shoulder their proportion of blame as well, not least Britain. Nor am I a fan of the sort of corruption that has been seen in some parts of the PA.
The USA certainly fund Israel's military might without placing any restraints whatsoever on how they are used. If anything, they encouraged the recent disastrous conflict in Lebanon.
No, I have never said Israel should not "defend" itself. However, too much of it's military action in recent years goes well beyond "defending" itself.
Palestinians are not blameless. They also need to get to the negotiating table. But to demand they give up almsot everything before they even get there is not reasonable.
Palestinians are not "within their rights" to kill anyone. However, they are also fighting for their very survival.
I have no idea what goes on in Islington. I have never lived there, it is a very long time since I even visited. I know nobody who lives there and you'd have to pay me rather a lot to persuade me to live there.
Hexbollah do not run the Palestinian Authority. I think you are perhaps getting a little confused with Hamas. If you don't even understand who and what the factions are in the area, it's time you asked yourself whether you should be shooting your mouth off about it.
Come back when you know something about it. I have stated many times that the only answer to the conflict is to talk - not to "wipe Israel off the map". If you can't even deal honestly with a moderate, how are you ever going to deal with the extremists? When are you ever going to ask yourself why people are fighting as they are? Because until you deal with their aspirations and objectives instead of dismissing it all with the too glib lie "they want to destroy Israel" you won't do anything except to polarise matters even more.

RogerIrrelevant69
19th Dec 2006, 10:05
Interesting point XXTSGR:

Hezbollah and Hamas not connected? I'm sure they have never met. Just the same bankers, honest. Bit like Sinn Fein and the IRA are not connected I think you will find.

Quote "it's time you asked yourself whether you should be shooting your mouth off about it." 3 words spring to mind: pot, kettle and black.

XXTSGR - whatever..................I'm really not bothered.

parabellum
19th Dec 2006, 11:04
When I first overflew and then visited Israel in the early sixties it was a very interesting spectacle. The Jewish areas were developing and becoming green whilst the Palestinian areas remained very brown,. One community was working hard to extract the maximum from the 'soil' whilst the other community chose to live from fishing, dates, goats and chicken as they required a lot less effort, inevitably jealousy broke out when one side saw that land once identical to theirs was now producing so much more. And please remember that the Palestinians and the Israelis have at least equal rights to live in the land they are now in, Israel are not 'in occupation' any more than the Palestinians, they are both there by historical and hereditary right.

You are correct XX there have been some recent land grabs, how sad that it became necessary to build a wall to protect a community from rockets and suicide bombers and in doing so Palestinian and Israeli land was the subject of compulsory purchase.

Yes the Israelis have built on land not within the 1947/8 agreement, have you forgotten that the collective Middle East has, since 1957, waged war on several occasions against Israel, Israel won and to the victor the spoils, maybe the Palestinians should have considered this before they supported the various wars against Israel?


"If you did not intend they should leave," Not me XX, very disillusioned but still a Christan.

XXTSGR
19th Dec 2006, 13:03
Evil Eyes - I think you may be confusing the Palestinians with the PLO, who have been driven out of all sorts of places, largely because the "host" countries feared exactly the sort of thing that Israel recently attempted in Lebanon.

Roger. If you think that Hamas and Hezbollah are exact parallels of the IRA and Sinn Fein you have no idea even which way is up.

parabellum, one reason why Palestinian land is sterile and infertile is that Jews tended to steal all the best bits. Land grabs have been going on for sixty years or more. On the basis of "to the victor the spoils", do you contend in that case that Iraq is now part of the USA? Or should land be handed back to the people to whom it actually belongs? By the way, you still haven't explained your comment about Lebanon.

Capt. Queeg
19th Dec 2006, 13:19
"Land grabs" have been going on for a lot longer than 60 years but you don't seem to find it relevant to hark back much earlier than 1946 or so...:rolleyes:

:uhoh:

RogerIrrelevant69
19th Dec 2006, 13:23
XXTSGR:
Correction to one of your earlier posts: you state "the too glib lie: "they want to destroy Israel"". Check the press releases, check the records, this is not a glib lie, this is fact. Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran/Syria ALL want to destroy Israel. That is one of their key aspirations and objectives. They say so publicly almost on a daily basis. Am I to take the word of some anonymous bulletin board contributor who says otherwise?

"Roger. If you think that Hamas and Hezbollah are exact parallels of the IRA and Sinn Fein you have no idea even which way is up."

In a word bollix. Having lived for many years with the narrow minded dogma of one set of militants, I can spot them a mile off. Hamas and Hezbollah are indivisible.

XXTSGR: you sound like someone who is trying to take some sort of higher moral or intellectual ground in this debate. It's not working. Your attempt to talk down to all those who challenge your so called "moderate" position does not come across well. In my case you have started to personalise this and that my friend is the precise point where I depart this debate with you.

If you can't keep it objective, keep it to yourself.

PS: I just spotted that bit - the Israeli's stole all the best bits of land! At last a sense of humour. Nice one. No they didn't develope the land into the agricultural oasis it is now, they stole it! History re-written as we speak.

Wipeout
19th Dec 2006, 13:58
Stole, pinched, invaded blah blah blah.:zzz:

Why they can't share like every other two-year-old is beyond me? Without wishing to reduce the whole religion debate to such a level, but it really is getting tedious. The whole region has been like this for probably at least the past 60 years, and probably will be for another.

After 60 years of bugger all success, perhaps the west should pull out and leave the countries in the area to sort it out between themselves. That way we don't all get dragged down into it and will give any pro-palestian lemming-bombers no reason to detonate themselves in public.

XXTSGR
19th Dec 2006, 14:01
Roger, if you check your facts you will find that it is you who is speaking "bollix". Like you, I have spent a while living with the dogmatic militants. If you think that Hamas is the political wing of Hezbollah or vice versa, then it's high time you had a reality check.

It's quite simple. Try looking them up on Wikipedia, for a start.

As for "destroying" Israel, I notice you forgot to mention Egypt and Jordan? Instead you only mention two countries and two organisations, in both cases thw most militant, carefully ignoring the moderate influences in the region. Do a little more research.

RogerIrrelevant69
19th Dec 2006, 14:43
Possible correcton there now XXTSGR:

Did you mean to say "no influence" as opposed to "moderate" when you referred to Jordan and Egypt?

Apart from that I can see your research is all sterling stuff and I just speak lies and other made up stuff.........:zzz:

Ethel the Aardvark
19th Dec 2006, 22:46
Hey Rog,
Could you answer my previous post as why Israeli airforce pilots are refusing to attack civillians?
Conscience perhaps!
Also why do fully trained soldiers kill children who throw stones?
and please dont go into the arguement because they do worse things.

parabellum
20th Dec 2006, 03:46
XX You have lost me re Lebanon, thought I had responded to each point, never did say Palestinians should leave, Hezbollah a totally different kettle of fish, many not Lebanese at all.

This has become a hamster wheel and you and I will never agree so I'll drop out now since neither of us are going to solve the on going problem.

Ethel - get real, Palestinian terrorist have been blowing themselves up in buses, cafés and other public places for a long time now killing quite indiscriminately women, kids and men, hence the wall. Gunmen hiding behind kids, aid workers and journalists put those three groups at high risk.

cavortingcheetah
20th Dec 2006, 04:47
:)

Having been unable to obtain a copy of the conference agenda; one thought that Ionewould just throw out this BBC news article in an effort to encourage further conversation on this tendentious subject. :hmm:

As for advocating the destruction, dissolution or denfenestration of Israel; One supposes that it might possibly be argueable to state that the foundation of that state, viewed in historical perspective, has made the political situation in the Middle East rather more difficult than it might have been. In the context of this arguement one must blame entirely. the British for its institution and the Americans for its continuance.
For once it would appear that the French esape censure?:rolleyes:

Why are Jews attending a conference on the Holocaust in Tehran at which star guests include deniers of the genocide? Clue: they also want an end to the Israeli state.

A handful of Orthodox Jews have attended Iran's controversial conference questioning the Nazi genocide of the Jews - not because they deny the Holocaust but because they object to using it as justification for the existence of Israel.

With their distinctive hats, beards and side locks, these men may, to the untrained eye, look like any other Orthodox believers in Jerusalem or New York. But the Jews who went to Tehran are different.

Some of them belong to Neturei Karta (Guardians of the City), a Hasidic sect of a few thousand people which views Zionism - the movement to establish a Jewish national home or state in what was Palestine - as a "poison" threatening "true Jews".



A representative, UK-based Rabbi Aharon Cohen, told the conference he prayed "that the underlying cause of strife and bloodshed in the Middle East, namely the state known as Israel, be totally and peacefully dissolved".

In its place, Rabbi Cohen said, should be "a regime fully in accordance with the aspirations of the Palestinians when Arab and Jew will be able to live peacefully together as they did for centuries".

Neturei Karta believes the very idea of an Israeli state goes against the Jewish religion.

The book of Jewish law or Talmud, they say, teaches that believers may not use human force to create a Jewish state before the coming of the Messiah.



But how do Neturei Karta and other Orthodox Jews such as Austria-based Rabbi Moishe Ayre Friedman justify attending such a controversial conference?

Rabbi Friedman told BBC Radio 4's PM programme that he was not in Tehran to debate whether the Holocaust happened or not, but to look at its lessons.

He says the Holocaust was being used to legitimise the suffering of other peoples and he wanted to break what he called a taboo on discussing it.

The main thing, he argued, was not Jewish suffering in the past but the use of the Holocaust as a "tool of commercial, military and media power".

In what many other Jews would consider the height of naivety, he commended Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for wanting "a secured future for innocent Jewish people in Europe and elsewhere".

In his speech to the conference, Neturei Karta's Rabbi Cohen said there was no doubt about the Holocaust and it would be "a terrible affront to the memory of those who perished to belittle the guilt of the crime in any way".

However, he also argued that the genocide had been divine will. "The Zionists, with their secular pompous approach behave in complete opposition to this philosophy and dare to say 'Never Again'.

"They have the audacity to think that they can prevent the Almighty from repeating a Holocaust. This is heresy."

Happy Christmas to one and all and if it's your New Year, a successful one. All the rest can await their turn until their's comes around!

:cool:

Ethel the Aardvark
20th Dec 2006, 05:54
Well reported mr naughty cheetah.
Have a happy one yourself

Capt. Queeg
20th Dec 2006, 06:03
he also argued that the genocide had been divine will.

God, if He exists, simply sat back and watched those events, as with everything else that has taken place since he cought Adam with an apple. Free will, not divine will. Wish they'd make up their minds... :rolleyes:

cavortingcheetah
20th Dec 2006, 07:30
:hmm:

There might be some doubt as to the veracity of the implication that God is an armchair pilot, a castrated wombat, as it were.
Old JC, in his moments of extremis, hanging there in a manner more significant but certainly less attractive than the gardens of Babylon, was heard to remark upon the fact that God had forsaken him, (Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabachthani - please excuse the alphabet). From such an utterance, we may surely infer that his God was a pretty sort of forceful fellow who could cause thunderstorms and so on, to arise with frightening and sometimes devastating consequences. So to imply that God sat back and watched The Holocaust unravel is to promulgate an arguement as suspect as that which might state that The Holocaust was the direct will of God, in retaliation for the actions of those Untermenschen ( not a word one would personally apply in every case but which was used, in a sort of merry colloquial fashion, to refer to the Eastern hordes. The EU and South Africa, respectively, might take note of this?) who knocked up his son in the first place.:{ Toodle Pip!!

RogerIrrelevant69
20th Dec 2006, 09:00
E the A,

I didn't realise you had addressed a question to me. Must have ignored it, how rude of me...

How and ever the totally unique phenomenon you refer to that has only ever occurred in Israel is that of "Conscientious objectors". Well maybe not totally unique - WW1, WW2 plus just about any war in the last 100 years has all had them. Luckily in Israel it does not mean execution at dawn as it did for many poor souls in WW1.

Maybe you should look into the subject - there is volumes upon volumes available.

Or you may prefer to stick to the newspaper headlines of the day - less taxing I'm sure.

Ethel the Aardvark
20th Dec 2006, 09:23
Thanks Roger,
I rely on the xmas annual of Viz for my info.
All the breast for chrimbo

G-CPTN
20th Dec 2006, 09:23
Maybe David Irvine will be able to attend now?
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1244753,00.html?f=dta
Holocaust denier David Irving should serve the rest of his three-year sentence on probation, a Vienna court has ruled.

cavortingcheetah
20th Dec 2006, 09:38
:hmm:

Recently, an excellent collection of the works of one Adam Elsheimer was exhibited at The Dulwich Art Gallery. It was marvellous to a degree.
One doubts that the curator had Irving in mind when he coined the title catch phrase:

'The devil's in the detail.'

The more subtle advantages of the classical education come ever to the fore!:ooh:

But then again, Irving probably doesn't have this past logo has his computer background either.

http://www.homebake.com.au/

Very, very unpolitically correct of the Australians, was it not?:E

RogerIrrelevant69
21st Dec 2006, 13:58
cavortingcheetah,

I am curious. I have read and re-read a number of your contributions on this thread and cannot for the life of me figure out what any of them mean (except the BBC report you reproduced). Is this some sort of code? Is there a BBC4 program that I should be listening to to decode this stuff. It's a complete mystery to me.

Reminds me of some of my namesakes (Roger Irrelevant) finer monologues in Viz which were of course entirely random and a touch irrelevant too.....