View Full Version : Sign the Petition.

tony draper
9th Dec 2006, 13:45


9th Dec 2006, 14:08
Signed up, thanks Drapes for flagging this one.

9th Dec 2006, 14:47
Duly done.

Sixty years too late, but...


9th Dec 2006, 15:20
Another one on the list


Lon More
9th Dec 2006, 15:29
Min too, thanks Mr. D.

Have taken the liberty of posting it to the Mil. Aircrew thread

9th Dec 2006, 15:29
As it's for British citizens only, I'm sorry I can't add my name to the cause.

Very brave men to go out night after night. 55,000 did not come back. Big brass ones for Bomber Command crews.



(command for rendering a salute in formation)

9th Dec 2006, 15:42
and me ...........

9th Dec 2006, 15:43
"Bomber" (later Baronet) Harris requested a special campaign medal for the bomber command, but it was refused. Already during the closing stages of WW2 debates about morality, and indeed efficacy, of the bombing raids was already under way. Most interesting of all none of the Nazi leaders, including Goering the Luftwaffe commander in chief, were put on trial for their bombing of civilians. One can guess why not.

9th Dec 2006, 16:41
My old mum was a supervisor (checking wing tips) on the Lancs, Avro factory Manchester. She requested (on behalf of her) I enter my name on the petition. She has often told me, she said a little prayer to the the brave men who would fly the a/c she had checked.


9th Dec 2006, 16:54
Grandfather was a Lancaster pilot. He survived. He was a wonderful, gentle, kind man. He hated the job and was angry at the way the crews were treated after the war.

When he taught me to fly he made me promise never to use the skill for any purpose which could harm people.

9th Dec 2006, 17:10
Thanks Mr Draper, :D Duly signed

Rather be Gardening
9th Dec 2006, 17:39
TYVM, Mr D. Signed.

9th Dec 2006, 19:37
I never realised! Name duly added. I shall forward it on to my Aunt and her family. Her Father in law was a Lancaster pilot and he was involved in Dresden.

9th Dec 2006, 20:07
Have signed - with letters so they know we are not just the hoi polloi - but believe individual letters get treated more seriously.

A petition is too easily bound with pink tape and put on the bottom shelf

9th Dec 2006, 20:10
Thanks for posting Mr. Draper
As a colonist one cannot sign but reflects on the Navy hymn ~
third stanza I believe~

" Oh hear us when we cry to thee
for those in peril in the air "

Godbless them and their families for the unselfish sacrifices,
one can't begin to imagine.

9th Dec 2006, 20:25
See http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/MATINEE.html, this month,
Memphis Belle.
Not quite bomber command, but gives a good feel whats its all about.

9th Dec 2006, 20:58
Also put the link in a couple of forums (fora?) one pollutes.

9th Dec 2006, 21:02
Memory jog,
Was doing some instrument training last week and noticed a B-17 parked on the ramp ( name was " Aluminum something or something Aluminum ", possibly "overcast" ) Have never seen one up close. Hovered over for a better look and was astonished at how small it looked compared to modern airplanes and when thinking about all the movies one has seen it must have been a really tight fit for the crews. Other impression was
" it's a sitting duck ." Must have been awfull flying in WWII bombers having to maintain course discipline with " Target " written all over you.
Side note~ it appeared to have a port side nose waist gun additional to the nose turrent gun. Couldn't see the starboard side. Any comments from B17 spotters?

9th Dec 2006, 21:16
I've never flown in a B-17 or any other bomber, of course.

In my early teens, I got to know a guy who had flown one over Europe during WW2. He and my dad ~ who was very selective in talking about this sort of thing ~ used to chat about air tactics.

I remember this older man once drawing a diagram of B-17 formation flying and saying that ~ if formation discipline was maintained ~ the gunnery was very lethal to attackers.

A diagram of B-17 formation flying can be found on page 5 of this link:


The document's fascinating.

Also this, from the actual B-17 pilot manual:


And sincere gratitude from one who lives well and free because of the selfless sacrifices of those brave men who flew the Lancs, 17s and all.

Tricky Woo
9th Dec 2006, 21:27
Me dear old grandpa's an ex-lanc pilot.

Served from 1943 through to 1945, and boy did it buggah him up. he's now pushing 90 years old, and I'm so sorry to say that the 60 odd years since his last mission haven't made up for his lost innocence. What really fcuked him up was a daylight flight at low level over the Belgian coast a few weeks after the war ended. All he could see was rusty wreck after rusty wreck of crashed aircraft embedded into the coastal muds.

Yeah, it fcuked him up big time.


Howard Hughes
9th Dec 2006, 21:48
Another one signed up in honour of my Great Uncle, who was a Lancaster tail gunner (perhaps the most unenviable position on the ship!). Sadly he paid the 'ultimate price' after some 45 missions, which included the '1000 bomber' raids.

9th Dec 2006, 21:50
Side note~ it appeared to have a port side nose waist gun additional to the nose turrent gun. Couldn't see the starboard side. Any comments from B17 spotters?

Not a spotter, however, it was a common modification to beef up the nose armament to counter the favored Luftwaffe head-on attacks since the nose armament was less than that from a beam or stern attack.

Eventually, the 'G' model added the remote controlled 'chin' turret' and the forward nose 'waist' guns disappeared since they were both manually trained and VERY difficult to aim directly ahead.

Loose rivets
9th Dec 2006, 21:58
Signed up thank's Tony.

I went in a Lanc at the end of the war...my mother pushed me up the steps after paying a couple of pennies to someone.

Even as a small child, I could sense the closed-in feel while making my way to the front, I was glad to get out. Obviously it left a lasting impression.

It was in a field near to East Gates in Colchester, just near the mill which is a bar/hotel now I think. (The wings must have been tacked on for the display period as there was no place to land it.) I wonder if anyone else can remember it being there.

10th Dec 2006, 05:32
Stirred to my first post, and duly signed. Thanks Drapes

10th Dec 2006, 12:59
Thanks for bringing this to my attention A.H. . I had no idea that the contribution of these brave men had not been recognised.

tony draper
10th Dec 2006, 13:07
Indeed Bomber Command was treated very shabbily after the war, as someone has already stated the great and the good went across to Germany(when it was safe to do so)saw the destruction wrought and had a group guilt fest, hense they did their level best to remove the work of Bomber Command from public attention.
I beleive there was even some objection to the Statue of Bomber Harris being unveiled recently by the same kind of people.

11th Dec 2006, 03:48
Again, thank you Mr D

Duly signed

11th Dec 2006, 11:04
The inside of a Lancaster has a main wing spar that obstructs the way from front to rear. This spar, over waist-height high, has to be climbed-over, and in flying gear (with parachute) this must have been nigh impossible, especially if the aircraft wasn't flying steadily and level.

Mr Lexx
11th Dec 2006, 11:19
One has signed the petition, loads of siggies now

11th Dec 2006, 11:21
Duly signed. It is a matter of honour, after all:ok: :D

11th Dec 2006, 11:24
Thanks Heir Drapes.

Great Uncle, Frank Stewart, Mid Upper Gunner, 75 RNZAF, Shorts Stirling, AA-Q N6123 from Newmarket, March 3rd 1943, mine laying of Dutch Frisian Islands, Crew and Aircraft lost on operations........

11th Dec 2006, 11:27
Signed :ok:

11th Dec 2006, 11:34
Indeed G-CPTN that spar is some obstacle. In the event of a forced landing the bomb aimer, nav and gunners were supposed to brace themselves against it. As for trying to get out of the beast when you had to, the tail turret went to a ninety degree position so the gunner could roll backwards out of it, the mid upper was supposed to leave by the main fuselage door and everyone else was supposed to clamber through the cockpit, down into the nose and then out via the nose hatch. (There is a form of tunnel in front of the flight engineer's seat into the nose)

Grandpa reckoned it was nigh on impossible to get every one out by parachute and that the pilot stood almost no chance unless he turned it into a glider to avoid the secondary effects of the power (yaw and then roll)

Then again he reckoned that if you wanted to bale out of a Mosquito (which he flew on his next tour) you had to shut down the starboard engine to avoid chopping bits off in the prop as you left.

Brave men all. They deserve better than I think history will allow.

11th Dec 2006, 12:14
That wing spar:- http://www.kiwiaircraftimages.com/images/main/detaillanc/LANC26.JPG

11th Dec 2006, 15:45

Duly signed, even though my job was to shoot the Russki bombers, down!!

As far as the spar in the Lanc goes, the Shack had a similar design and it was quite an effort to get coffee to the lookers in the back at 200' over the North Sea on a cold February night. Can't imagine what it was like at 18,000' with bullets and cannon shells coming through the walls and the pilot suddenly corkscrewing just as I was about to take an astro shot or summat!

Mr Lexx check your PMs


Mr Lexx
11th Dec 2006, 16:19
Thanks jf, acted on