PDA

View Full Version : TFL/Tube/Bus drivers


boogie-nicey
5th Dec 2006, 09:19
Wouldn't you love it if the self appointed "we're too important" brigade of Tube and (to a certain extent) Bus Drivers in London were removed from their unrealistic work conditions and given a ryanair makeover :ok:

Their silly strikes, excessive pay demands and cushy work conditions would have to be earned. Lovely, blisful, marvellous.

AcroChik
5th Dec 2006, 09:31
An entry level New York City Transit Authority subway conductor earns almost exactly 100% more per year in total compensation (including pension benefit, etc), as a junior regional FO in the right seat of a CRJ200 ~ and they have a much stronger union.

boogie-nicey
5th Dec 2006, 09:46
The balance is both economically and socially unjust. The conductor might have some training to handle medical incidents, passengers in difficult circumstances but how does it compare to the direct responsibilities of the pilot? Indeed the FO once in the aviation pipeline will invariably head onto to pastures new and greener with time but even so what does he or she say to their partner as they struggle to bring a presumably young family, wait 10 years and everyhting will be okay.

AcroChik
5th Dec 2006, 09:53
...what does he or she say to their partner as they struggle to bring a presumably young family, wait 10 years and everyhting will be okay.

More like...

"Wait five years and I'll get stapled to the bottom of another carrier's seniority list in a merger. Then wait another five years and I'll get furloughed... again."

Neither happened to me, but I've seen it happen to others.

The underlying economics of mass transit and airlines are fundamentally different. Airlines are owned by shareholders making a bet on the value of future cash flow. Supposedly, they're trying to make a profit. It's hard to make a dollar in the airline business. Mass transit is owned by governments (supposedly the citizens) and is permitted to ~ even expected to ~ operate at deficit financing levels because of the perceived benefit to society as a whole.

garp
5th Dec 2006, 10:06
An entry level New York City Transit Authority subway conductor earns almost exactly 100% more per year in total compensation (including pension benefit, etc), as a junior regional FO in the right seat of a CRJ200 ~ and they have a much stronger union.

Do you have a link to this info? Tx.

AcroChik
5th Dec 2006, 10:28
There are such studies and I've seen one. Can't put my finger on it just now, but will try to find it again. In the mean time...

Look at:

http://mta.info/index.html for compensation of transit authority employees.

Keep in mind that it is total compensation we're measuring, including:

Number of paid holidays/personal days
Number of paid sick days
Dental coverage
Tuition reimbursement
Pension contribution
And numerous other items.

Compare the total value of these things with any current agreement on first year FOs in force at a regional.

Then try to factor in the hard to value but surely valuable employment security aspect.

Lon More
5th Dec 2006, 10:29
Maybe the dis-satisfied controllers (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=253417) at EGLL should be included here:\

M.Mouse
5th Dec 2006, 11:21
Well if the pay differentials are so important why not go drive a bus or train?

VnV2178B
5th Dec 2006, 11:29
For the inside track you could try this:-

http://www.railwayregister.care4free.net/becoming_a_train_driver.htm

VnV

handysnaks
5th Dec 2006, 11:33
Is the complaint that train drivers get too much, or FOs get too little?

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
5th Dec 2006, 11:37
The conductor might have some training to handle medical incidents, passengers in difficult circumstances but how does it compare to the direct responsibilities of the pilot?I don't think it's such a cushy job. Have you seen how thin those rails are? they have to stay right on top of them AT ALL TIMES. I bet THAT can't be easy.



In any event it either is or is not a capitalist system. If it is, then market forces dictate prices and there's obviously some market forces dictating that subway drivers earn more than FOs. Maybe we should change the system to one where everyone earns the same.

Curious Pax
5th Dec 2006, 12:26
The balance is both economically and socially unjust. The conductor might have some training to handle medical incidents, passengers in difficult circumstances but how does it compare to the direct responsibilities of the pilot? Indeed the FO once in the aviation pipeline will invariably head onto to pastures new and greener with time but even so what does he or she say to their partner as they struggle to bring a presumably young family, wait 10 years and everyhting will be okay.

Anecdotally (is that a word?) a bus driver or conductor, and to a lesser extent a tube driver, are more likely to be physically injured at the hands of their customers than a pilot. I don't include the good people scheduled to be on the flightdeck of the Santa Special from Cardiff the other day in that of course!

Perhaps the differential is danger money?

boogie-nicey
5th Dec 2006, 12:55
Someone mentioned Capitalism (ah, those were the days). If free markets were really implemented those over rated Tube, bus and black cab drivers (that was the original thread starter) would be brought down to earth with a bump. They are bullying the management to get what they want though it isn't always deservedly. I agree that in numerous other instances management also bully their workforce too (ryanair anyone?) but there needs to be a healthy pivot to the whole argument and I doubt the current tube/bus drivers are on it.

I am sure it would be far easier and quicker to train (no pun intended) the bus/train conductor than a pilot even to the most basic level. But local government allows their union friends to get away with it knowing it's 'private' money so they couldn't care less. If that is the case then why not raise the pay of the poor army of retail assistants throughout London whom work for some of the biggest names in the world selling items that are many multiples of my monthly salary. After all those companies really can afford it. The reason is simple, that's wehere free markets are truly endorsed and implemented.

There certainly shouldn't be some kind of silly out dated 'class' notion to all this but compared to the plethora of other professionals working throuhghout London why are these drivers/conductors, etc allowed to gain such a high wage where going on strike is a passtime.

Wyler
5th Dec 2006, 13:25
Anyone who has to deal, daily, with the unwashed, greedy, rude, obnoxious, violent, tight fisted and generally ignorant masses deserves every penny they get.

Lon More
5th Dec 2006, 18:02
Anyone who has to deal, daily, with the unwashed, greedy, rude, obnoxious, violent, tight fisted and generally ignorant masses deserves every penny they get
Come on Wyler, not all pilots are that bad.:\

Hirsutesme
5th Dec 2006, 23:42
Wyler, thank you!.

And just imagine, if pilots demonstrated an ounce of the solidarity that train/tube drivers did, then they just might start getting the rewards that their professionalism and training deserved.:rolleyes:

G-CPTN
6th Dec 2006, 00:21
When I worked in Denmark, the income-tax situation was such that everybody achieved a 'minimum' working wage before any tax was deducted. Above this basic, tax-rates rose steeply (and I mean steeply) such that extra salary soon had very little effect on net income.
The trick, however, was to BORROW money, as all interest payments (for whatever purpose) were deductible from your top rate of tax. It sounds crazy (and it was) but it evened-out 'society' so that surgeons lived shoulder-to-shoulder with dustmen (there were peculiar house-financing arrangements too that meant that identical houses carried different 'prices' - or more accurately 'running costs' as most properties were on 'finance').
Overall, the (middle-class) Danes seemed content with the system, but of course there were many at the lower-end who seemed to struggle (maybe they were those who would struggle even if you gave them money for doing nothing?).
This WAS mid 80s. Interest rates were almost 20% and my top rate of tax was 85%. Cars were subject to 180% import duty.
Funny old World.


And just imagine, if pilots demonstrated an ounce of the solidarity that train/tube drivers did, then they just might start getting the rewards that their professionalism and training deserved.:rolleyes:
Maybe society can 'do without' air travel more than it can do without mass-transit?

Also I imagine it is relatively easy to attract pilots for the kudos of the job (and the perceived perks).

Courtenay
6th Dec 2006, 08:26
Call me a money grabbing B****rd, but I'd rather be a dustman than a brain surgeon... That is the problem of trying to make everyone even.

I know not everyone is like me, but I think you'll find there are not enough people that will do it as a "service to society" and want the relevant remuneration for undertaking x years training, LONG hours, stress etc etc..

James.

Navajo8686
6th Dec 2006, 12:19
One of the very noticable things is that everybody always thinks that somebody else does 'better' than them. That somebody else is better off apparently is always unjust compared to their own responsibilities/accountabilities/role/salary/*insert own comment here*.

However whilst market forces may well dictate many things the majority on JB would be very horrified and vocal if we imported another 5 million immigrants to do the jobs cheaper than the existing people. There's plenty in the world who'll do work for 50 a week!

At what point do you stop those comparisions? If a First Officer in Outer Mongolia will do the job for 150 a year (or whatever!) then why aren't we importing them to fly our planes cheaper to drive down cost? It's another market force!

You cannot pick and choose which market forces you want - it's usually best not to want any! Big business (and the Rich!) win and employees ALWAYS loose!

boogie-nicey
6th Dec 2006, 13:54
Not the union friendly tube and bus drivers of London. The whole point is they don't operate within the open/free market conditions and want the most money and luxurious work benefits. Unlike other commuters that they transport to theie respective work places. There is always a couple of company director's giving themselves a fat salary but when an entire company workforce start expecting that then start to fall apart. I also doubt that the increased money has led to any improved productivity neither.

Transport for London and the rest of Socialist elite are bad value for money and a true burden on the rest of the honest workers/professionals and residents of London.:ugh:

Navajo8686
6th Dec 2006, 17:02
"Unlike other commuters that they transport to their respective work places"

Sorry Boogie are you really suggesting that none of the commuters would take any extra cash/perks/conditions if they could get them? Do you think that they'd turn them down if they thought that it would make society a better place?

I doubt it!


As to whether TfL do a good job or not is a whole new thread - as an occasional worker in London I have to say that whilst the transport system stinks it is a million times better than some around!

Nav

VFE
6th Dec 2006, 20:06
boogie-nicely,

Have you ever worked as a London tube, bus or black cab driver?

VFE.

boogie-nicey
7th Dec 2006, 09:08
NO I haven't and thank God too.

All manner of jobs are difficult whether they are located in London or not and some far more difficult than what TFL brigade do. Take a fireman why doesn't he or she get as much, that's serious business. What about nursing staff why don't they get anymore they handle the public take physical and verbal abuse whilst offering a life saving service (people don't attend A%E for a fun night out). So make the LOndon bus/tube drivers special, free market economy not RED Ken style political payouts. Why do they continue to moan when they are being paid relatively more than many people in other sectors and industries.

A British soldier is paid far less for a job that is far more professional and comes with a serious commitment.

Windy Militant
7th Dec 2006, 10:25
I have a cousin who drives trains in London. The job is bloody hard work lots of strange shifts and on call time and is made even more difficult by the fact that despite the enourmonus bounty ladled onto them by the company :rolleyes: they have a massive turnover of staff. Same with the tubes and the buses.
Basic law of capitalism is I belive supply and demand. Far more people want to be Pilots than want to be tube, bus and train drivers.
Oh and when was the last time you heard of a pilot being beaten up or stabbed when he leaves the cockpit at the end of a sector? It's a fairly common event for LTF staff.
Perahaps BRL could arrange for you to shadow some of his colleages for a few days to set you straight on this.

arthur harbrow
7th Dec 2006, 10:41
One of the ways to deduce how good a job is, is to look at how many people want the job and then how long they stay in the job.
Now, in most cities and towns in this country there is a chronic shortage of people willing to drive a bus on stage carraige work.
I would say the average wage for a bus driver is below 10 pounds an hour, hardly a Kings ransom.

VFE
7th Dec 2006, 11:04
Well Windy Militant and arthur harbrow have pretty much just said what I was about to say!

A mate of mine has done all three of the TfL jobs mentioned above which boogie-nicely obviously has very little knowledge regarding. My mate did not stay in any of those jobs for very long at all. To me that speaks volumes.

Supply & demand ennit. If they want people to stay in the sh!tty jobs then they have to improve the remuneration package. Some people (if daft and ambitious enough) will offer to fly aircraft for free to get into the industry - cannot see too many people doing that for tube trains.

VFE.