Korean Pilots in Jail

[Herb]

4 Korean pilots are being detained in jail in Korea for union activities. Please visit their support page and leave a message of support.
As of today they have spent 58 days in custody.
No abusive comments please, these guys were and are trying to defend your profession from management terrorism.
http://www.kalfcu.or.kr/english/

Steve Chung (Korean IFALPA Director and B737 F/O and a real gent! ) can be contacted at [email protected] if you have any questions.

Herb

PS Would appreciate some help keeping this post near the top. TKS.

[ 13 August 2001: Message edited by: Herb ]

[vertical speed]

And to think I had considered working in Korea! Sounds even more heavy handed than the recent antics of a certain Irish Airline!

[Lou Scannon]

Difficult to believe that a so-called civilised Government could risk losing so much face in international affairs.
Can it really be that these men have been jailed for simply pushing a union viewpoint?

If this is how they treat their own voters I can well imagine how they treat expats!

What is Balpa's viewpoint on this?

[info4u]

It is to be expected, be it Korea, Singapore or China or the Arab countries, any/all of these countries that pretend to be Democratic and Civilized.
Civilazation to them mean having expensive cars, newest aircrafts, everything money can buy, to ape the West, as long as you don't ask/ talk/ discuss or go against the dictatorship which is present & practiced under the guise of Democracy.

Democracy with a twist! You are given a choice ( have your unions ) but DO not Dare to question the Lords and Masters or heads will roll.
IT is indeed pathetic the way these countries treat humans stripping them off diginity.

[Pilot Pete]

Received my copy of 'The Log' today which mentions the four unfortunate pilots from KAL in the Gen Sec's (Christopher Darke) column.

He says, and I quote, "Behind all of this is the right of the Flight Crew Union(FCU) to represent its members and be properly treated by the airline and the government. IFALPA and BALPA, together with Flight Crew Associations around the world, continue to put pressure on the Korean authorities in support of the Korean pilots."

PP

[exeng]

An appalling state of affairs. KAL are exploring yet another means of committing commercial suicide, surely nobody in their right mind would ever consider taking employment with this outfit now.

My thoughts are with the four Pilots and their families.


Regards
Exeng

[fullforward]

Not to mention Asiana, its local competitor, wich is much worse.
An outstanding example of professional respect of the Stone Age!
Don't even consider apply for such an outfit.
I know about seasoned, competent professionals that on the belief were joining a serious professional commitment, moved to that stinky and polluted Seoul with families and had their contracts suddenly terminated under personnal (rather than technical) impressions from some mad check pilots...
Their evaluation criteria is regarded as joke by its pilots: to be failed or not has nothing to do with competence, it is just a matter of the checkpilot humour.
There is much more...

[Idunno]

This thread needs to stay at top of theBB until these men are released.

[Kermit 180]

If they're imprisoned for simple union action, then that is one sick country.

RELEASE 'EM.

Kermie http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/aircraft/stuka2.gif

[Lord Lucan]

This seems to be the time for a boycott of Korean Air.

For those of you out there who would consider flying on them in the first place ;)

[Taildragger67]

Guys I'd suggest not only a boycott of Korean Air, but also of Korea... refusal to operate there would get this some front-page international attention PDQ, in the mainstream press not just the professional. Also, has IFALPA thought of contacting the ILO on this? Anyone spoken to ground crew unions re getting them to refuse to service KAL/Asiana a/c in foreign ports (a couple of 744s stuck on the ground at LHR or JFK would get things moving... ). What about a picket of KAL/Asiana check-ins/gates etc.? This stinks.

[Idunno]

This seems to be part of a growing trend in SE Asia. Last time it was the Taiwanese detaining the SIA crew.

IFALPA need to get on top of this PDQ.

[WANDERLUST]

There are two sides to every coin.
Checkout the other side.

As a matter of interest the KAL pilots union has insisted that the company hires no more foreign pilots and that it starts reducing the foreign pilots by 30% starting the first of 2002, regardless of the fact that KAL is short of crews.

Never support one side until you know the facts of the other side.

Regards
A bystander with no direct involment with KAL. :confused:

[exeng]

Wanderlust,

I'm sure you are correct with regard to the KAL union's stance on foreign pilot hiring.

You may disagree on that stance, but we are talking about four people in jail here. Jailing people for calling strikes can never be condoned regardless of the reasons for calling a strike.

So I'm supporting the side of decency if that is OK with you.


Regards
Exeng

[Tex Murphy]

:eek:
Anyone with a bit of sense would stay away from that shanky outfit!

[lizard drinking]

The strike was called as a response to a call to participate in a general strike called for the whole of Korea by the militant unions. If the pilots did not support them, they could expect little support from them in the future. Because of the law concerning industrial action in Korea, the pilot participation was illegal, and everyone concerned knew that going in. The leaders of the pilot union knew the risks they were taking but chose to go ahead anyway.
And what did they ask for? More money? No, they refused an offer from the company for a pay rise, prefering to get the agreement to get rid of the foreign pilots instead.
And why the hatred (not too strong a word) of the foreigners? Why has nobody asked them why they fear a small group of pilots from all over the world who are there only to assist and help Korean Air, and Korea? They do not take jobs from Korean pilots, but allow for the airline to grow and prosper. The FOs are being promoted as fast as possible (far quicker than they should, in my opinion) yet the airline is still short of captains, especially experienced captains. Yet you can give a Korean pilot nightmares if you whisper in his ear while he is sleeping in his First Class seat "foreign pilots!"
In response to pressures from the Korean Govt and US/Canada/UK CAAs, the company has taken much of the control away from the Korean pilots and tasked foreigners to run or advise on the running of Operations and training. They are running English language courses, and employing foreign pilots to boost the experience levels and give the Korean FOs a chance to see how it should be done. Of course changes are not being made fast enough, and many opportunities are being lost, but they should be given credit for trying.
Control of the airline is the real aim of the pilots. When they had it, there were more accidents and incidents, but that was an acceptable price to pay, in their opinion.
Losing that control was the real bone of contention, and the locals will do anything they can to get that control back. Anything.
If you guys really want to see Korean aviation join the 21st century you will support Korean Air, not the pilots.

[Invaribly]

Just what is the real hang up with the KAL pilots with regards foreign pilots?Why the hatrid?
Indeed as I walked through the departure area in bangkok and saw the KAL flight crew of an A330,the korean captain looked fierce and said absolutly nothing to the 2 FO'S who walked quietly ahead of him with their heads down.I kid you not ,not even I could have questioned that guy in an emergancy because he looked like evil warmed up and ready to go!
And again,are things really that bad in Korean?Certainly I have heard so from many european pilots who call me "brave" just for flying with them as a pax!
As regards inexperienced captains and F/O'S .Just how inexperienced are we talking about here?How young are these capt's and F/O's and with how many hrs?
cheers.

[exeng]

Lizard Drinking,

You are making a very similar point to our other contributer 'wonderlust'. So OK point taken. From what I have read over the last few years I am of the opinion that the KAL union stance may be misguided. However there may be issues not yet recognised that may give a valid reason for the union's stance.

One thing is for sure, the airline cannot continue 'spiking them in' at the rate they have achieved in the last few years and still continue in business for much longer.

However do you not think it somewhat over the top to actually jail people for taking industrial action?

I agree with jailing people for murder, robbery, pedophilia etc. I might be old fashioned but I believe that throwing people in the slammer for withdrawing their labour is WRONG.

If KAL wish to move into the 21st century then they may just achieve it by communicating effectively with their workforce. In my opinion it is probably too late for that now and KAL as it is will die; and so it will be a 'lose, lose' situation.

For those in jail and their families, I am sorry it has come to this and I sincerely wish that you have an early end to your terrible ordeal.


Regards
exeng

[grange.guzzler]

Exeng. I agree with you, the jailing of guys for withdrawal of labour is barbaric.

However the facts are, as I understand them, that the guys are in jail at the behest of the government, not KAL. The strike was deemed to be illegal, they were notified of this prior to taking action, but still went ahead.
As part of the return to work the FCU negotiated that the company would withdraw any charges they had against the guys. I understand this was done.

If one was to adopt a cynical stance then one could assume that the company and the government were working hand in hand. I do not share that cynicism.

The sad part of the whole affair is that there is no provision for bail in the Korean system, in this sort of matter.

Fortunately the guys are well respected inside the prison as they are martyr's of the working class, and thus are not in the same danger from predators as they would be in the jails of Britain the US Australia etc.

[Jailed KAL Pilot]

Fellow Pilots of PPRuNe:

Thanks to the solidarity of our pilots from Hong Kong AOA, our website has been made available to many more concerned voices from the world pilot community.

Speaking on behalf of the Korean pilots, both KAL and Asiana, through my official position with IFALPA, we are very grateful for the overwhelming show of support and encouragement for our 4 jailed pilots.

Perhaps we have been too long silent on the issues, allowing people to conjecture on the complicated problem at KAL. Due to some of the content on the second page, I have been compelled to join this discussion, but with acknowlegment first to the right of all people to air their views freely without my imposition.

WANDERLUST was correct to note KAL Flight Crew Union's proposal to limit expat pilot hiring during the last negotiations which resulted in the June 12 strike.

We, as a labor union, and as the legally recognized bargaining agent on KAL property, make no apologies for our attempts at job security and workscope protection for our pilots.

With regard to the pilot shortage, whether management had planned for labor to sustain expansions, who has rights to these jobs first, etc., such are the issues for the collective bargaining process, which by the sum total experience of hundreds of thousands of pilots throughout history, must be honored in order for any organization to prosper and survive.

I contend that we have been stripped of these constitutional human rights in Korea, both by KAL management and the Korean Government Prosecutor.

As to the issues raised by LIZARD DRINKING, the "militant unions," yes by far, KAL FCU was one of the latest to join the ranks of the democratic KCTU, driven entirely by the wisdom of the old saying, that "management gets the union it deserves."

You said, "pilot participation was illegal," which by itself indicates your lack of grasp on the issues. Pilots struck independently as a unit, as voted by its members alone, and it was not a participation in someone else's decision. Its legality is still the question being tried at the courts, but of course, being a KAL management pilot if that's what you are, must be going on the briefings by the management legal department's yes men.

But surely you know that concerted strikes along affiliations are the bedrock of industrialism, again, to effectively pressure managements into good faith bargaining without government intervention, but that point was all but lost on KAL management, which had no intentions whatsoever of engaging its pilots as equals, as borne out by its actions to date, all according to the now exposed scripted plan to bust the union.

And did we not initially propose negotiating on the $40 million/year pay and benefit increase? Our requests for negotiation from the end of March was all but completely ignored by management, to where we decided to forego the pay increase at par with expat pilots to next year, in order to gain control over issues such as FOM revisions and FOQA agreement, and the scope control was really the last on the agenda.

It has also been written on this forum that "Koreans hate the expats." While I cannot speak for others in this regard, it is ironic that this is the very same gutter argument raised by the Prosecutor in this case, as fed from KAL management, to cloud the issues with irrelevant arguments of, sadly, ethnic strife.

I close by telling you of my experience on July 25, when I was fired from the company for my union activities. I had been interrogated by the Prosecutor all day, who did not hesitate to tell me that I would be fired by KAL management at his behest, for going against my word of not writing information such as this to the outside world, which was conceded under duress on the evening of the day of my release from a previous night in jail. When I went to see my fellow pilots that evening, they told me that I had indeed been fired, that afternoon.

Back to the subject at hand, fellow airline pilots of the world, union or not, I thank you for your solidarity on behalf of the pilots of Korea.

[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: Jailed KAL Pilot ]

[Idunno]

-Steve you have my support. Maintain your dignity. You are right in all you've said.

Isn't it beginning to bother you pro-pilots reading this that the use of excessive and illegal sanctions against aircrew seems to be the latest management tactic, not just in Korea, but in CX and even in Europe at FR!

I would not for one instant compare the jailing of pilots in Korea with the illegal sackings, but the motivation is the same...to intimidate and break union resistance to management steam-roller tactics.

If this is allowed to pass, God help us all.

[Send Clowns]

With their recent accident record I would not consider flying with or for them, but this is even worse. Spread the word about their fascist practices and terrible safety record!

[lizard drinking]

It is precisely because of Clown's comments that I write.

For Jailed, you have the right to do whatever you want with your own airline, and if you feel it necessary to take industrial action, that must be your decision. I base my comment about the strike being illegal on what I read in the local papers, and from conversations with friends who work for KAL. I did not see any statement from the union refuting the claim that their participation was illegal. Thus those who did take part knowingly risked jail or whatever punishment would be imposed. Of course it should not have reached that point and industrial action should not result in jail, but you are dealing with a government that does not have much sympathy for unionists.
The Korean pilots do, according to what I have been told, and from what I have seen, resent the employment of foreign pilots, and have been doing their best to have them dissmissed. The strike was settled, according to the media, after the company agreed to reduce the number of foreign pilots by around 30%. There was no pay rise, even though one had been offered. Does this not speak for itself?
I am not asking for pilot support for the foreign pilots employed by KAL (they would not want it, if my colleagues working there can be believed), but when you go out to support the KAL pilots, don't forget that there are two groups involved, one of which has no voice.
I am not a management pilot, nor do I have any affiliation with KAL, but I can see much merit in what the company is trying to do, and, frankly, not much at all in what the pilots are doing.

[grange.guzzler]

Lizard Drinking.

The resentment of which you speak, is more a resentment of the percieved disparity between the conditons of the two groups, rather than a resentment of the pilots themselves.
As with any diverse group there are a few xenophobes in both camps, but they are very much in the minority.

GG

[Jailed KAL Pilot]

Dear Lizzard Drinking:

I bear no personal animosity to you.

I had hoped for arguments along industrial lines on these pages, regarding the way that KAL management had treated the pilots and their union, but matters never being so cut and dried, I recognize that one can become embroiled along issues which the unions call whipsawing, the pitting of one employee group against another. We would at all cost want to stay away from this trap.

As to the important issue of improving safety, like all professional trade unions, it was and is the stated objective of KAL Flight Crew Union, from its inception to contribute to KAL's operational safety through our involvement at the appropriate level in management.

Now then, allow me to reply to your comments:

You said,
"I did not see any statement from the union refuting the claim that their participation was illegal."

If indeed we are not refuting the CLAIM of illegal strike, by the Prosecutor in this case, why then the on-going trial, the third session scheduled for 27 August? The last Korean Supreme Court precedent of June 26 ruled on the legality of Hyundai Motors Services Union going against the Korean National Labor Relations Commission's administrative directive after the cool-off period had expired back in 1998, to uphold the union, and is considered a landmark case in Korea. It is the judiciary which must decide the constitutionality of interpretation on the labor statutes by the tripartite quasi-judicial organization of the executive branch, and the burden is entirely on the Prosecutor to prove these criminal charges as an illegal strike.

You said,
"The Korean pilots do... resent the employment of foreign pilots, and have been doing their best to have them dismissed."

I would simply thank Grange Guzzler in echoing his sentiments above, that it is more "a resentment of the perceived disparity between the conditions of the two groups, rather than a resentment of the pilots themselves." Let's not go there.

You said,
"The strike was settled... after the company agreed to reduce the number of foreign pilots by around 30%."

The agreement reads, freeze hiring by the end of 2001, to gradually reduce by 25 to 30% by the end of 2007. That comes out to 5% per year. Sounds more like natural attrition. And if management saw fit to concede this point, may I ask your motive in judging the outcome by the most directly related parties, if indeed you are not affiliated with KAL? Why the sour grapes?

Then you said,
"There was no pay rise, even though one had been offered. Does this not speak for itself?"

Were you there at the table, as I was, as a negotiator? The last response from management after we had foregone the remaining $24 million in stipends from the original $40 million opener, at 2AM on the morning of the strike, after we had extended the strike for 6 hours in hopes of getting a pulse out of management, was no one returning to the table to respond, until 5:30AM, when we walked out. The story you heard about management coming back with a counteroffer would dismantle their court strategy of claiming inability to proceed with negotiations for lack of agreement to limit the agenda to strictly pay issues.

Regarding safety issues, you said,
"I can see much merit in what the company is trying to do, and, frankly, not much at all in what the pilots are doing."

I have not praised KAL's efforts for safety improvements, nor have I discredited them here in this regard. But you have certainly attacked our union's intentions and efforts as being meritless. I think that you are not qualified to speak to others of our intentions.

Going back to your first letter, you said,
"In response to pressures from the Korean Govt and US/Canada/UK CAAs, the company has taken much of the control away from the Korean pilots and tasked foreigners to run or advise on the running of Operations and training..."

Today's decision by the FAA to downgrade Korea for KCAB's lack of oversight authority of KAL and Asiana would partially dispute your perspective on the issues. While they ran all these nice programs, they should have also engaged the representative union on property at face value. That has been our outcry since the beginning. As you would know very well, the first step in the implementation of any Safety Program is to identify the major stakeholders, and to involve their participation from the start. We have been ostracized from the start because of our affiliation with the KCTU.

And the last point, you said,
"Control of the airline is the real aim of the pilots. When they had it, there were more accidents and incidents, but that was an acceptable price to pay, in their opinion. Losing that control was the real bone of contention, and the locals will do anything they can to get that control back. Anything."

It has to do with our identity as a labor union, and I think you are completely confused about who we are, maybe because you only see life as expats or locals. (Now, I will admit that since starting union work, I tend to see delineation along management/labor, but not ethnicity.) When did the pilots ever have control of the airline?? The old cronies you are thinking of, were simply extensions of management, and I don't even consider them as one of the pilots. None of them have joined our union, by their own decision. Now I do agree with you a 100% that they really screwed up flight operations, complete with their xenophobic attitudes about expats. I wish I could say that these middle level managers are all gone, but they are still very much entrenched, trying to exercise what little despotic control over the vast majority of unionized pilots. Still, I think it is unfair to say "their opinion" is that accidents were an acceptable price to pay for maintaining control.

[Richthofen]

I tried to read the postings with no success.

Census going on ?

STOP BUYING KAL TICKETS UNTIL THOSE GUYS ARE OUT OF JAIL

[Idunno]

Lizard Drinking
I work as a pilot in a unionised airline in Europe.

It is our unions policy that we do not accept contract pilots unless there has been full consultation and agreement with our union reps.
The reason is nothing to do with dislike for expats.

Contract pilots are generally hired on a short term basis. They can be used by management to undermine a union. Any professional pilots association in a reputable airline with fixed contracts of permanent tenure and seniority system will always strive to have a fully permanent labour force...for the sake of the pilots in question as well as the union as a whole.

The figure of 30% contract pilots in Korean is shocking, and is far beyond anything our union would tolerate. So is 25%.

I sympathise with you if you've fallen foul of this philosophy, but it's a fact of life, and nothing personal.

As to safety. The safest airlineis one with a motivated and happy workforce.

[Lord Lucan]

I'm curious to know which western airlines codeshare with KAL

And what those pilots (and their union) think about this situation.

Anyone? :confused:

[grange.guzzler]

Idunno

You have the wrong end of the stick. The figures of 25% and 30% you speak of, are not "of the total workforce.

The agreement is that numbers be capped as of 31 Dec 2001. That number (of foreign pilots) must then be reduced by 25-30% of THAT number by 31 Dec 2005. This is NOT 25 or 30 % OF THE TOTAL WORKFORCE.

GG

[ 17 August 2001: Message edited by: Grange Guzzler ]

[lizard drinking]

Dear Jailed. Appreciate your views.
I guess we see things differently, since the fact that you are/were in jail shows that at that time the strike was illegal. I hope you get that decision reversed, and that you win your battles with KAL.
Question: What benefit would there be to you if the company was to be destroyed, or forced to shrink? And while answering that, can you, since you come across here as a reasonable and intelligent man, explain why the foreign pilots are so feared/hated/resented? And if you succeed in reducing the number to 70% of the Dec2001 number, what benefit will that be to you/KAL/Korea?
I have not seen a reference to the FAA action against the Korean CAA, but I assume you are stating that they have reduced Korea to Category 2? If true, how is that the fault of Korean Airlines management? Do you think that is a positive step?
Looking forward to your reply.

[Vsf]

It appears to me that many well meaning folks are utterly naive about culture in the "hermit kingdom."

Before you wax sympathetic with platitudes...have you ever done business in Korea? Really dealt with Koreans? If not, then you aren't qualified to offer ethical viewpoints based on a foreign culture that is one of the most notoriously unethical in the world.

Let the Koreans solve their own problems. They eat each other like sharks...but they'd eat all of YOU without giving it a thought.

[GlueBall]

Irrespective of industrial confrontation, or whether expats should or shouldn't be on the property, the larger issue is flight safety.

The hardest part in changing KAL's cockpit culture is to unlearn the old ways of doing things. The quasi military hierarchy has to be dismantled in a tough in house "re-education" center. Disciplined cockpit procedures and crew coordination must be taught and practiced over and over in the Sim; performance must be videotaped and played back during critique. Strict standardization techniques must be enforced in the Sim and on the line. 300 hours operating experience under the supervision of a check airman. Captains cannot be allowed to individualize procedures; First Officers and Second Officers must be taught and encouraged to be assertive.

Only tough discipline and hard work will break the oldtimers out of the mold.

[grange.guzzler]

Glue Ball

How is it you know so much about what is required in KAL. It is obvious from your post you have never set foot inside the place. KAL does not have S/O's.
Your post is based on assumptions and in reality you have no idea of the procedures that have already been put in place. Please don't try to sound authoritative when shooting in the dark.
There are problems there and they are being worked on by a lot of dedicated people Korean and foreigner alike. Leave it to those in the know.

GG

[GlueBall]

KAL's accident reports are in the public domain. Upon reading them any average reasonable person can deduct that KAL is suffering from a severe breakdown of crew discipline in the cockpit.

22 Dec 99 at STN, B74 rolled into 90 deg bank after IMC takeoff. Capt ADI frozen. Insufficient instrument scan.

15 Mar 99 at KPO, MD83 crashed during 2nd unstabilized IMC approach. Rwy Overrun.

15 Apr 99 at SHA, MD11 flown into ground by F/O after IMC takeoff. Insufficient instrument scan.

5 Aug 98 at SEL, B74 crashed during unstabilized IMC approach. Rwy Overrun.

6 Aug 97 at GUM, B74 crashed after premature descent below MDA. Insufficient instrument scan.

10 Aug 94 at CJU, A300 crashed during unstabilized approach. Rwy Overrun.

13 Jun 91 at TAE, B72 gear up landing. Gear horn CB pulled. Checklist negligence.

27 Jul 89 at TIP, D10 flown into ground during IMC approach. Premature descent below MDA. Insufficient instrument scan.

1 Sep 83 off Sakhalin, B74 way off course en route ANC-SEL. Shot down.

20 Apr 78 NW Russia, B70 way off course en route ORY-SEL. Shot down. (Crash landed).


:confused:

[fullforward]

...and more will come, unfortunately.
They are a huge mistake on aviation matters: lack of a reasonable, fair and consistent evaluation system; a quasi military approach to hierarchy and cockpit decision making process, absolutely away from modern CRM, like the fellow above mentioned. The more they got crazy about doing things right, the more they became lost.
Congratulations to FAA, that timely dowgraded them. The better decision would be simply banning them from USA.
Air Traffic Control contributes a lot on this outstandingly dangerous situation: there is a mix of military and civilian traffic from two megairports surrounded by 5 active Air Force Bases, doing flight trainning almost every day, fighters maneuvering at visual range of airliners, at high speeds! All in a specific frequency, different from that of general use, obviously.
Maybe Koreans think that to have money is enough: it would buy the finest machines, build nice airports and even buy expertise and experience.
Their arrogance will kill much more people.

[grange.guzzler]

Glue Ball
I was not suggesting there were no problems. As you point out its all a matter of public record, and its horrible.

What intrigues me is how you can be so authorative on the basis of reports read, of accidents, some of which are about 20 years old, and with an obvious lack of knowledge of what is presently occuring internally. For you to make comments about the Korean nature, attitude and culture, without firsthand knowledge, is arogance in the extreme.

Rest assured, there are a lot of very able and dedicated people working overtime to rectify the ills of the past.
KAL's maintenance is top level. It is very rare to take an aircraft away from home base with anything in the book. MEL's are rarely used, they fix the sucker.
The FOQA program is probably as comprehensive as any in the world. All exceedences get a good going over with a full analysis and rectification action where necessary.
The simulator training has all been taken over by Flight Safety Boeing, with their guys also doing the sim checks.
All crews have undergone additional sim training, particularily in risk management, over the past couple of years.
An extensive English Language program is in place, with English level 5 a requirement for promotion.
These and many other programs are in the mill and have been for some time. Considerable progress has occured and improvements are continuing. But its a long slow process.

Full Forward. The FAA downgrading, is of the KMOCT (Korean Ministry of Transport and Construction) the CAA/FAA equivalent. It is not a downgrading of either KAL or Asiana. However the penalties of that downgrading will be worn by those airlines.

GG

[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: Grange Guzzler ]

[fullforward]

GG

That is true, but the comments are largely deserved by the airlines themselves.
KAL has been making serious efforts, Asiana situation is worse.
But still there are excessive military approach to civil aviation in Korea, wich is largely inappropriate and this influence is spread over all aspects.

[GlueBall]

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2000/AAR0001.pdf

"KAL's training in the execution of non precision approaches is ineffective....

"There are underlying systemic problems with KAL's operations and pilot training programs.

"The Korean CAB is ineffective in its oversight of KAL's operations and pilot training program....

[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: GlueBall ]

[Won2Go]

The NTSB report on the KAL Guam accident cannot be disputed, however many changes, as detailed by Grange Guzzler, have taken place in Korean since then. A better operation is the result of these changes. The proof is the reduction in the number of KAL incidents in the last 18 months.

[tonyryan]

Dear lizard drinking

As you rightly pointed out, the reason for your strike was to:

"... get the agreement to get rid of the foreign pilots..." (Quoting from your post).

Yes you have a right to assert your career aspirations, Yes you have a right to fill those jobs being held down by ex-pats.

Couldn't agree more. That is, provided you are at least as capable and as competent as those you resent being there.

Now, let us reflect upon reality in Korea. Direct entry captains ex-military with ZERO hours heavy airraft experience.

Bypass of co-pilots by ex military pilots with less experience.

Promotion based upon politics as opposed ability.

A higher kill rate that any air force or military can ever admit to.(In Civil Aviation, that is!!!!)

More hull losses per year, and deaths than any other country, OR INDEED, the rest of the World put together!

Some claim to fame.


I resent your attitide, it does little for you or your country. However, Jailed KAL Pilot has my admiration. Whatever his background, he has admiration, respect, and support.

And

Grange Guzzler,

whatever you have to say about how things have changed is largely as a result of the threatened ban on their operations into the US. Subsequent to that, Delta conducted an audit that was; to say the least, frightening to say the least.

Korea is in a time and culture Warp that it badly does not need.

[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: tonyryan ]

[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: tonyryan ]

[grange.guzzler]

Tony Ryan
Just acouple of points, as I don't really want to get into a non productive pissing match with you.

Direct entry military Capts does not occur. The only DE Capt's are expats.

The "Delta Report" of which you speak, was NOT the Delta Report. It was a widely published set of observations of one of a number of KAL expats who undertook an auditing role for Delta. The person responsible for the report is a good guy but it should be noted he has no experience in check and training before or since, and was provided with very few guidlines on the role he undertook. The report you read was not the official Delta Report, which has only been seen in the upper levels of Delta and Korean. The report you read whilst containing a lot of good stuff, to say the least, contained many points of personal pedantry.

The main point that seems to be lost on you and Glue Ball is that these things are in the past. Proceedures are underway and improvements have been wrought. There is much more to do, and the people on the front line will be better able to achieve them if people like you would stop being so bloody negative. If all airlines in the world went through the transformations of the magnitude that this airline has undergone in the last couple of years, it would be a vastly different world.

GG

"give peace a chance" J Lennon