New AIDU FLIPs

[chinnyrationcarrier]

Has anyone else experienced the complete c**k up with the new AIDU FLIPs? The last edition was supposed to be updated on the 23rd Nov, however, as usual our supply chain a***ed it up again. This is the kicker though, they have now completely changed. The Vols 1 - 3 that we knew and loved are no longer in use. There are now 2 volumes which cover the entire UK and Norway. The name of the FLIPs are 'Emergency and Unplanned Diversions' and only publish 1 approach to each runway.

You'll be glad to know that if you are planning to go IF or indeed take info on possible diversions on your route you are to either photocopy the loose leaf aerodrome plates or print them off the AIDU website. This will undoubtedly add some considerable time into the planning process of going anywhere. The pratt who came up with this idea needs a dam good shoeing, not just because the idea in itself is rubbish but because there was no liasion with front line squadrons(as far as I'm aware) no trial run in period and worst of all not even the common courtesy to inform anyone that this change was about to take place.

Set the scene, going flying, take FLIPs, oh great they aren't in date. Flt Planning don't have the in date ones, what's going on? "Oh, AIDU haven't sent them out yet, something to do with the supply chain. Use the out of date ones" Hmmmmmmm, you joking or what! Anyway, next thing you know we have these books that have the square root of nothing in them. Clearly they are going to be of little use to us slow movers as you'll endeavour to get the info on possible diversions along your route before you go anyway. As we discovered it's easier to use the loose leaf aerodrome book and photocopy the required plates, however, we only have 1 and on inspection it hadn't been properly updated for 2 years! (a flt planning issue I know)

This appears to be a cost cutting measure probably by some REMF who has given no apparent though to the people that use these documents day in day out. Is it just me or do you get the idea that aviation in the RAF is NOT important anymore. Thanks guys!

Sorry, end of rant, its been a long day. DCSA have a lot to answer to as well. That's another story!!! :confused: :mad: :ugh:

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Argh, is this an end to rapid planning...... harumpf. VP, check your pms and gimme a shout!

[detgnome]

Agree, complete bag of w**k. We knew that it was coming, but have been powerless to do anything. I Understand though, that the new system is already under review following many unfavourable comments!

[Pontius Navigator]

There are now 2 volumes which cover the entire UK and Norway. The name of the FLIPs are 'Emergency and Unplanned Diversions' and only publish 1 approach to each runway.

This just might make economic sense as the FJ fraternity was never one for collecting or using a full set of plates and binding 2 books is cheaper than 3.

You'll be glad to know that if you are planning to go IF or indeed take info on possible diversions on your route you are to either photocopy the loose leaf aerodrome plates or print them off the AIDU website.

Really?

This flies entirely in the face of the dictate from the then OC of No 1 AIDU and the chief nav at the ministry whose name will popup in the middle of the night:

"You cannot photocopy or use fax or eprints because the inks have not been tested for NVG and cockpit lighting compatibility."

The pratt who came up with this idea needs a dam good shoeing, not just because the idea in itself is rubbish but because there was no liasion with front line squadrons(as far as I'm aware) no trial run in period and worst of all not even the common courtesy to inform anyone that this change was about to take place.

And what I said above.

As we discovered it's easier to use the loose leaf aerodrome book and photocopy the required plates, however, we only have 1 and on inspection it hadn't been properly updated for 2 years!

The books were first mooted in 1987 but not introduced until a decade later mainly to benefit the FJ Community.

Ask the question or try the 'approved' copy at night. Just make sure you have someone who has a white light to see the RED warnings.

[StopStart]

Be careful - the new vols 1 and 2 have fewer plates per airfield than the old books. So if you're looking for SIDs and STARs you better dig out the loose leaf ones before you go.

Usual FJ driven rubbish :ugh:

[Pontius Navigator]

My sentiments exactly.
Also, technically, isn't flying on unofficial photocopies of TAPs "illegal"?
See my comment above. Photocopying NVG or cockpit light compatible charts will produce a flight safety hazard from incompatible charts.
Photocopying commercial plates is another issue.

[chinnyrationcarrier]

See my comment above. Photocopying NVG or cockpit light compatible charts will produce a flight safety hazard from incompatible charts.
Photocopying commercial plates is another issue.

This was a point that I wasn't fully aware of, thanks. However, if that is indeed the case then the whole system is surely even more seriously flawed than I first thought. I assume that the inks used in colour photocopiers are the same as our printers. So does that mean you can't even download the plate from the AIDU website and print them off either. Hmmmmm.

[GlosMikeP]

And how will the in-flight re-tasking and/or unplanned div be managed without the right flips? Barking!

[Pontius Navigator]

Chinnyrationcarrier,

That was indeed the case. You might be luck with, say, Epson, and unlucky with HP. It was all to do with the particular pigmentation of the ink.

The particular CO had been OC AIDU for more years than I can recall and was superb at his job. You can imagine how a small detail like that can be lost.

Couple of changes and it becomes history.

Easy enough to try out. Grab a selection of DIY plates or even ordinary colour prints and try it at night.

[chinnyrationcarrier]

To be honest, if we just forget all about this photocopying and printing off plates from the AIDU website because we want to stay legal. Our only option is for every aircraft nav bag(slow movers as we have the space) to contain a full set of loose leaf aerodrome plates. But Hang on I hear you say, this will cost more money. Yes that's probably true, but I suppose they didn't think of that as it's not AIDUs budget that it'll come out of. Nuts!!!!! :ugh:

[Lima Juliet]

They're still producing the FJ TAP books as well (I saw some today) so I have no idea who ordered these skinny efforts. I agree with you all, bring back the old, thicker, books these new ones are w@nk!

I agree about the old CO (initials GB), his nickname was "The Fat Controller" I believe!

[[email protected]]

AIDU pointed out to me when I rang them that even the old books were only supoosed to be used in an emergency or on diversion and that any pre=planned sortie should use the proper TAP from the loose leaf binder as they are the source documents. It would appear that the working group in charge of monitoring AIDU didn't see fit to consult the customers before changing the product.

However, it is quite clear that the driver for this has been manpower - the concept of providing the front line with the best product they can has been completely ignored. So now all the SAR flights are having to order extra loose leaf TAPS so we can have the information we need in the cockpit as most SARops are either an emergency, an unplanned diversion or both. The workload has been pushed from AIDU to our already very busy Opsies.

Bring back the TAPS books!

[A and C]

Quite a few civil pilots subscribed to the "flip" service as it was a lot more used friedly in the cockpit of a small aircraft than the Aerad or Jeppesed airways manuals, the change in the "flip" manual has resulted in making the manual usless to these pilots.

One can only wonder what the economic result is of turning away this "spinoff" business? My guess is that in the long run making these books "cheaper" will put up the cost to the military due to the loss of civil sales.

[120class]

My main objection is the apparent lack of consistency throughout the volumes eg: LHR has arrivals but only one approach or NDB plates rather than TACAN plates in some instances.

IMO, the FJ books are much better in that they at least offer ILS, TACAN and radar minima.

:ugh:

[Background Noise]

Usual FJ driven rubbish

I don't think this is FJ driven. We all (FJ) supported, some considrable time ago, removing Iceland, Norway and the near continent from the FJ books and combining the North and South books into one UK FJ/small cockpit book to be carried for unplanned stuff. For planned excursions the 7 or so volumes of yellow books is fine or indeed loose leaf or jep or whatever is available. This smacks more of AIDU driven rubbish AKA the tail wagging the dog.

[nice castle]

This has really got me going as well recently.
1. Photocopying or printing from elec source is not approved.
2. There are 2 source documents.
i. The loose leaf TAP book
ii. The AIP
both of which differ greatly wrt the date the TAP was published.
"Ah, just look in the TC Amendment Bulletin I hear you say"
Did that, found yet more discrepancies in publishing date.
The upshot? Well, I just can't satisfy myself that I'm using the correct up-to-date info in the way that I used to be able to. It feels unprofessional.
Still, apparently the old system wasted a lot of paper, as people would bung the entire Vol 3, or whatever, in the bin on return from the sortie, rather than put it back in flt planning because the book got ripped/soggy from leaky cockpit/dog-eared etc.

So, in saving an arb amount of money, we've moved away from best practise in a big way.

I, for one, will be politely calling Aidu in the near future to see how to sort this out, within the constraints of their manning and budget etc; there has to be a better system than this!;)

[Pontius Navigator]

Wg Cdr Gary Barber

He must have had a permanent position at AIDU as it was he who was the one who said thou shall not copy TAPs because of the print pigmentation. He was still there last year and must have been there for a good 10 years.

http://www.agi.org.uk/pooled/articles/BF_NEWSART/view.asp?Q=BF_NEWSART_177488

He has now been replaced by Wg Cdr Phil Speedy:

http://www.agi.org.uk/pooled/articles/BF_NEWSART/view.asp?Q=BF_NEWSART_215034

and the story appears to be here:

http://www.aidu.mod.uk/terminal.html

[LXGB]

...and the story appears to be here:
http://www.aidu.mod.uk/terminal.html

They can't even spell Gibraltar right! :)

The feedback page (http://www.aidu.mod.uk/guestbook/guestbook.html) is amusing. Unfortunately it seems to be broken though.

LXGB

[Jeep]

FS,

'The AH community was extremely surprised that this crept under the radar horizon'. Are you saying your radar isnt very good?

Jeep

[vecvechookattack]

Im a bit lost as to why you guys are photocopying them. Why don't you just take the real copy with you?

[Front Seater]

Jeep,

Radar is just fine thanks - just fine. However some other radars that didn't see this may need servicing or an over haul!

Vec,

Sorry do you mean remove the relevant sheet from the AIP and take to the cocpit with you? I might be missing the obvious but wouldn't that mean that the AIPs in Flight Planning would be raided on a per sortie basis and that you would need multiple AIPs to cover all of the crews that may require an extracted copy?

[vecvechookattack]

We tend to go for the multiple flips to cover all crews....that way there is no need to photocopy anything....we all have our own

[Front Seater]

Vec,

Have you seen the new FLIPs? Just in case you missed the point of this thread they have changed significantly from the ones that I think that you are referring and the ones that have served us so well for donkeys.

Essentially the new ones are really scarce on information compared to the old ones.

[vecvechookattack]

Yes - I received mine last week....gave them a cursory glance and then plonked them in my nav bag and placed the OOD set in the bin..... during which absolutely no photocopying took place.

[Tourist]

Vec
You are missing the point.
Since you fly RN rotary, it will make absolutely no difference to you.
In fact I am impressed that you even carry the yellow books.
For RN helicopters nothing more than the En Routes is actually required.
The big issue involves the Approach plates in the Yellow Books. Since you will only ever fly a HCA,SCA,PAR or SRA it makes no difference to you.
It is now necessary for others less lucky to carry at least one but possibly two whole libraries of loose leaf plates airborne to avoid photocopying.
Along with this goes the mindnumbing hours of ammending inbound

[Itswindyout]

Not that important.....so long as RocK is spelt correctly.

[Mmmmnice]

Vec - 'a picture's worth a thousand words' - go up to Brize (with your shiny new TAP book) for some approaches to 26, and see what happens when they change rwy to 08! And I wouldn't try their PAR arf arf......

PS. had it direct from the AIDU horses mouth that one can visit the N'hlt website and run copies of the plates from the online AIP - obviously glossing over inky troubles, copyright etc - as for NVG; it's the VOR needle I can't see under blue/green light, once I've got my bins on I can just about read any app plate!!

[Wader2]

and placed the OOD set in the bin.....

Missing a trick there. Should have put them on eBay.

Oh, I forgot, you've lost eBay access :}

[DaveyBoy]

Ah, the new Emergency and Unplanned Diversion books will work fine as long as crews making Emergency or Unplanned Diversions to ISK understand that they have to land off their first approach...

well, following the published Missed Approach Procedure of SID ALPHA will be a bit difficult seeing as the Number One Aeronautical Information Deprivation Unit didn't see fit to include a copy of the SIDs in their new book :ugh:

[LXGB]

I've printed off a set from the CD for work. Just got to remember to print some more off when they're next updated now. :rolleyes:

Link, chain, what's that then? :ugh:

LXGB

PS

That is the Spanish spelling of Gibralter.

B*ll*x is it! :)

[chinnyrationcarrier]

Today I called AIDU to make a complaint about the new Emergency and Unplanned Diversion FLIPS. Firstly I was going to use the Feedback section on their website but strangely it was inactive.

Anyway, apparently letters were sent out 3 months ago to all customers informing us of this change. How we as users weren't informed I don't know. I suspect our flight planning has to take a hit for that one.

What we have at the moment is a stopgap for a future product. I was informed by the Flt Lt who brought the current ones in what was going to happen.

The old Vols 1 - 7 were 'supposed' to be for Emergency and Unplanned Diversions as it states in the small print on the inside cover. This meant you always had to check the loose leaf aerodrome booklet to make sure you had all the plates for that airfield. Due to numerous incidents where crews didn't have the plate for a certain approach or didn't have a ramp plan are why the changes are taking place.

The first change is the renaming of the books to reinforce the point that they are not for planned sorties. However, that in itself will also change.

The end product which 'should' hit our shelves by the end of Jan is for 2 books to cover the UK only. A North one and a South one. There will be the option to have them in the format of the old yellow TAPs or a hard backed binder, ie, 1 for Flt Planning and 1 for the Nav Bag. Importantly it will be as comprehensive as possible and cover all airfields and all the plates for that airfield.

Along with this there will be other books under the name of 'Emergency and Unplanned Diversions' which will cover the likes of Norway, mainland Europe and Iceland.

When this comes into place I think that they may actually have a user friendly product.

However, as usual, the main problem we have had so far is a lack of communication. Hopefully this photocopying and printing b****x will soon end.

[Pontius Navigator]

Anyway, apparently letters were sent out 3 months ago to all customers informing us of this change. How we as users weren't informed I don't know. I suspect our flight planning has to take a hit for that one.

Having been an S Nav O in many guises over many years may I defend Flight Planning Staffs.

Typically a flt planning section is manned by a very experienced ATC Cpl and, if lucky, an experienced SAC. One a secret airbase in Lincolnshire it was normal for only one of the 2 staff to be available (for weeks at a time) and for them to work 6 days a week - turning in on weekends sometime Sat and Sun in summer.

IMHO their job was the most critical job on the station bar none. An SAC is be definition capable of working without supervision. In Flt Planning this is absolutely true with only a cpl.

They rewrite flt plns they do your dipclear and they generally make sure that the 'surface' looks like a millpond to the aircrew while they paddle furiously underneath.

Anything out of routine is potentially a serious overload and very definitely NOT their problem. The problem lies with the S Nav O. The S Nav O is the one who should anticipate map demands - not routine replenishment but the new orders for new operations - check pink leaflets etc. For instance the 8.33 kHz spacing for the radios slipped in through flt planning NOT through EES.

It is the S Nav O who should be walking new AIDU plans to the users - the new design of the en route charts for instance. The FJ TAP books - I walked them around the sqns in 1987 and most importantly collated the stn response.

Find your S Nav O and rattle her cage .:}

[chinnyrationcarrier]

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Unfortunately our flight planning is not run by qualified and suitably trained personnel. It is headed by a civilian and the junior staff working there have not been given the correct training. As I asked the airtrooper working there if he knew how to check if the loose leaf aerodrome booklet was in date with the terminal charts catalogue he hadn't even heard of the document. The problem here appears to be poor management and poor training.

Correctly trained and skilled Ops Assts are worth their weight in gold. If you have them.

[Pontius Navigator]

nfortunately our flight planning is not run by qualified and suitably trained personnel. It is headed by a civilian and the junior staff working there have not been given the correct training. As I asked the airtrooper working there if he knew how to check if the loose leaf aerodrome booklet was in date with the terminal charts catalogue he hadn't even heard of the document. The problem here appears to be poor management and poor training.

Flt planning is critical to flight safety. Does that give a clue?

I have not checked JSP 550 but JSP 318 had a simple, single page, statement on the duties of the S Nav O. Not many people have a JSP setting out their TOR. The one criteria I remember was "The S Nav O shall be an officer qualified in Air Navigation". By definition this meant that the S Nav O could be of the GD Flt Ops specialisation only if they were qualified in air navigation.

I shall, if I remember after my draft of Chardonay this evening, check JSP550 tomorrow.

I remain, Sir, qualified as an S Nav O.

Pontius Navigation
AFRIN

[BEagle]

"For instance the 8.33 kHz spacing for the radios slipped in through flt planning NOT through EES."

A pity the same couldn't be said of mandatory carriage of 760 channel VHF a few years ago when the extra MHz was released. I remember reading an article in a GA magazine, then asking about our old jets.

It was the first that the RAF had apparently heard of it.... The soultion for some was to saw a bit of the selector spindle, so that '136+' could be dialled up. For others they tweaked the voltage controlled oscillator, adding the extra frequency coverage. This also allowed them to transmit on 117-118, which was not legal.

Same thing when FM-immunity came along. After reading about it in Pilot, I rang a contact at the Bull$hit Pavilions; he too found that a predecessor had buried it deep in the in tray. So there was a frantic flurry of activity and for several months we weren't legal to fly ILS approaches at many aerodromes. Bit of a snag with a VC10.....

It seemed that some idiot thought that they could get away with 'State Immunity'. Not so when the FM broadcast restrictions were removed after the 20 year warning the aviation industry had been given! I hope this rank amateur behaviour doesn't still go on?? Out of interest, the first unit to be fully FM-compliant at Brize Norton was.....the flying club! Also the first unit to have fleet-wide GPS fitted.

Then we had Omega switch-off. Again, the RAF VC10 fleet was caught napping and resorted to a temporary botch of single INS backed up with a hand held GPS, whose antenna was stuffed up the sextant hole.

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle,

I have a sneaky suspicion that the man in the ministry was the same OC No 1 AIDU, recently retired, who was dual hatted. Hmm.

[Background Noise]

I hope this rank amateur behaviour doesn't still go on??
Unfortunately, it does.:ugh: