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EDIspotter
29th Nov 2006, 19:05
The plot thickens every day on that story.

SWBKCB
29th Nov 2006, 20:30
The plot thickens every day on that story.

Indeed - is there something special about these 3 aircraft (e.g. dedicated to certain routes), or was there specific info on which flights were involved?

flash8
29th Nov 2006, 20:30
The plot thickens every day on that story.

and it all leads back to one place...

roll_over
29th Nov 2006, 20:38
Indeed - is there something special about these 3 aircraft (e.g. dedicated to certain routes), or was there specific info on which flights were involved?

Well Moscow is served by 767s. Very interesting, I wonder what BA will do in the mean time with 3 planes out of service?

Compensation from the goverment?

aardvark2zz
29th Nov 2006, 20:40
I'm surprised the airport security doesn't have basic radioactive detectors.
.
.

VFE
29th Nov 2006, 20:48
I'm surprised the airport security doesn't have basic radioactive detectors.
.
.I'm not.

Just wondering where this whole Russian spy thing is leading. Have they got oil?

VFE.

fantom
29th Nov 2006, 21:14
What a gift! Match three aircraft pax lists since end october and... Bingo.

late developer
30th Nov 2006, 00:50
I was going to post what I had learned about Polonium 210 myself today after being prompted by this thread rather than being lulled.

I have deleted it all.

I will however ask how dare anyone do such a reckless thing with knowledge gleaned from one of the world's landmark scientific discoveries? Madame Curie will be turning in her grave. If Putin had anything to do with it like Alexander Litvinenko told us before he died, no wonder he is hiding at home away from world leaders at the moment. He was probably blackballed.

N380UA
30th Nov 2006, 07:11
"No Sir, you may not bring your Diet Cock bottle on Board but please feel free to help yourself to some Polonium 210."

So much for security in the aviation industry…. (http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/11/29/uk.spy.ba.ap/index.html):ugh:

G-CPTN
30th Nov 2006, 07:39
Way back in the 1950s I was made aware of the possibility of radiation (we measured the dose in roentgens back then - whatever happened to those?) and the geiger-counter was a well-established tool. One would have thought that such a device would have been an implicit part of security screening in these days of the possibility of 'dirty' bombs.
Door and stable spring to mind.

tony draper
30th Nov 2006, 07:42
Something that has struck me from the start of this story,the method employed was a very unecessarily over elaborate way of getting rid of one person,this in itself speaks of the involvement of some intelligence service, over elaboration is a common failing in such organisations,that is how they drop themselves in the poo so often,ie the downright Monty Pythonesque schemes to bump off Castro,or the idotic convaluted plot to sink the Rainbow warrior by he French are prime examples
Anyway the plot thickens.

ORAC
30th Nov 2006, 07:49
Indeed. As been pointed out on the rumours forum, the first flight listed by BA as being affected was flight BA875 on 25th oct from Moscow to London. And since Mr Litvinenko has not been there for many years, and is reported to have been poisoned on 1st Nov, almost a week later, it must be presumed they have been given a name to look for on the passenger manifest.

So they know who brought the stuff in, and presumably did the deed....

G-CPTN
30th Nov 2006, 07:58
I'm still puzzled how 'low-level alpha radiation' that will not pass through paper is being measured as having contaminated the various locations. Was the particle unwrapped for inspection and confirmation at these places?
"Here's the particle you asked for, comrade." "Let me see it - I'm not about to buy a pig in a poke." "Here - real sh1t - none of your rubbish . . . "

? ? ? ?

(It has been announced that 'risk of contamination' is through ingesting or inhaling or through bodily fluids.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonium

Standby Scum
30th Nov 2006, 08:13
Polonium 210 is indeed VERY poisonous...
Can Polonium 210 be detected by the walk through security machine?
If so, I presume it was stored in checked in luggage. If not would the current measurable radiation be confined to the offender's occupied seat?
With 3 aircraft involved it shouldn't be to difficult to establish the passenger who travelled on them.
The information won't be available for 30+ years, besides best not upset the major supplier of Europe's gas.:=

Duff beer
30th Nov 2006, 08:39
I'm still puzzled how 'low-level alpha radiation' that will not pass through paper is being measured as having contaminated the various locations

OK. Physics hat on.

Its the polonium that contaminates not the alpha radiation.

As with all radioactive substances thay are un-stable. To try and become stable they emit a bit of themselves, this is usually in three different forms.

Alpha - A helium nucleus.
Beta - An electron
Gamma - Very high energy electromagnetic radiation

Because the alpha radiation is large, the skin can block most of the radiation.
But if the polonium is in the body then these high energy alpha particles are blocked not by dead skin cells, but by living cells in crucial organs. These little bullets rip DNA apart and cause severe damage.

For info, Beta and Gamma are much smaller and so can pass through skin into the body. Thankfully they carry much less energy and interact less within our body.


There will be a test tomorrow!!!!

Ace Rimmer
30th Nov 2006, 08:44
Thing I don't follow in all this... why would you do someone in using a method that would give the target plenty of time to chunter about who'd dun them in. I would have thought knock-knock "who's there?" tap-tap would be more effective or maybe make it look like a mugging gone wrong. Unless of course that's (the chuntering) is what you really want all along....(funny types... these spooks)

ORAC
30th Nov 2006, 08:49
Well I suppose its a bit better than beeing fed feet first, alive, into the central heating boiler in the basement. I understand the KGB passed the video of that one around quite extensively, "pour encourage les autres".

They do like their terror weapons....

Capt H Peacock
30th Nov 2006, 08:54
I would reiterate what’s already been said about Po210, you would have needed very intimate contact with the poor wretch, or the murderer who carried it, to be at any risk at all. Alpha radiation is in the form of Helium nuclei without two electrons, they have very short range and are stopped by the thinnest of barriers, including skin. That’s not to belittle the potency of Po, which is used as an initiator for nuclear weapons.

Three things worry me:

was Mr Litvinenko collateral damage in a bid to assemble a nuclear device in the UK?
have we just witnessed the first radiological terror attack in history?
who elected this bunch of numbskulls who are more interested in taking deodorant off pilots than protecting the citizens of the UK?


For God’s sake let's have some serious intelligence led, proactive intervention, and ditch the traffic wardens with metal detectors.

G-CPTN
30th Nov 2006, 09:09
Duff beer, your instruction is welcome. Whilst being 'a bit of a physicist' (at school) I have failed to comprehend the mechanism of radiation. OK, I can understand 'free electrons' and, of course, many elements and compounds vapourise (where would perfume be without this phenomenon?).
What puzzles me in this instance is that any self-respecting hoodlum would keep his polonium wrapped-up in transit (like any ripe cheese) so, presumably, the radiation would only escape when the package was unwrapped?

(Yes, I understand that gamma radiation requires substantial lead-screening to inhibit the escape of radiation. Incidentally, do Geiger counters detect ALL radiation types, or are they tuned to specific 'wavelengths'?)

Stpaul
30th Nov 2006, 10:22
I agree. The tea I got on Virgin was 'glowing yellow'

RMC
30th Nov 2006, 10:36
What did you get from a Virgin that was glowing yellow?

robdesbois
30th Nov 2006, 11:05
Geiger counters recognise alpha and beta radiation only. It contains a chamber of gas - since alpha and beta radiation are ionizing, they make this gas conductive and so an electric current flows.

Gamma radiation is not a particle but is electromagnetic radiation - other types include (in no particular order...) visible light, microwave, infrared, UV and radio waves.

G-CPTN
30th Nov 2006, 11:32
Geiger counters contains a chamber of gas - since alpha and beta radiation are ionizing, they make this gas conductive and so an electric current flows.
But (sorry) IF the alpha radiation (from polonium) can be 'contained' by mere paper, HOW does it react with gas (presumably contained within a sealed chamber)? :ugh:

Grainger
30th Nov 2006, 11:42
Very thin mica windows, cap.

MostlyModerate
30th Nov 2006, 11:44
Quote from Sunfish


" I think it is safe to assume that whoever dosed Litvinenko with Polonium is himself already dead"


The world's first suicide poisoner ?

G-CPTN
30th Nov 2006, 11:45
Ah! Thanks. I have found, through life, that when one asks a silly question there is frequently a sensible answer. :ok:

robdesbois
30th Nov 2006, 11:48
But (sorry) IF the alpha radiation (from polonium) can be 'contained' by mere paper, HOW does it react with gas (presumably contained within a sealed chamber)? :ugh:

:confused: err....I guess it must not be sealed or the detector wouldn't work on alpha particles exactly for that reason!

A quick search found me an article on building your own Geiger counter at http://www.imagesco.com/articles/geiger/02.html - including 'The front of the tube is a thin Mica window sealed to the metal cylinder. The thin mica window allows the passage and detection of the weak penetrating alpha particles.'

teeteringhead
30th Nov 2006, 12:25
robdesbois
Gamma radiation is not a particle but is electromagnetic radiation - other types include (in no particular order...) visible light, microwave, infrared, UV and radio waves. ... but whither particle/wave duality?????

tony draper
30th Nov 2006, 12:31
Indeed, Bragg the elder got himself a Nobel Prize proving they were waves and a few years later his son Bragg the younger got himself a Nobel Prize proving they was particles,hmmm, it may have been tother way round,one misremembers now, oddly enough both were right.
:rolleyes:

teeteringhead
30th Nov 2006, 12:50
I feel forced to thread drift into the only quantum physics joke I know ........

Werner Heisenberg was stopped for speeding. As ever, the traffic cop begins the conversation with the immortal words:

"Excuse me Sir, do you know how fast you were going?"

"No, officer, but I know exactly where I was!"

frostbite
30th Nov 2006, 12:54
"No Sir, you may not bring your Diet Cock


Is that for fat ladies performing a 'service'?

late developer
30th Nov 2006, 13:23
I still remember the demo in third year physics at school where the alpha radiaiton source was held in front of a piece of paper and the detector immediately went quiet. Oh useful to know I thought.......Then you might also remember what happened in that other classic school experiment when bromine liquid was released from an ampoule or whatever into the corner of a larger container of air.

The problem with this stuff is not only that it is radioactive, but that it is also volatile, and it is chemically extremely toxic too. That's three problems - and as you again have been taught well by now, I am sure, it's often the third one that gets you!

BOAC
30th Nov 2006, 13:24
Is that for fat ladies - presumably those who are trying to diet but dying to try it?

G-CPTN
30th Nov 2006, 13:30
Nah! Vasectomised - doesn't make girls fat.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
30th Nov 2006, 13:36
They thought they'd found it in the sandwiches, but then they realised that was actually bolonium

RatherBeFlying
30th Nov 2006, 14:02
http://www.optcorp.com/images2/1723-l.jpg

http://www.optcorp.com/product.aspx?pid=1723
Staticmaster® ionizer brushes neutralize static charges AND completely remove dust, lint and other contaminants with one quick swipe over a charged surface.

Staticmaster® ionizers are preferred worldwide by medical, research, photographic and analytical laboratory professionals to eliminate static charges. All ionizers are self-powered by the alpha-energy from Polonium-210 ion sources.

More about Polonium-210 from the manufacturer of Staticmaster:

Polonium-210 is a naturally occurring radioisotope. For instance, it is found in granite rock formations and several types of clay.

Like all radioisotopes, its molecular structure is unstable. This instability results in the release of molecular material with an accompanying release of alpha-energy. This change in molecular structure, called radioactive decay, happens in order for the material to reach a stable state. For Polonium-210, the stable structure that it eventually decays to is ordinary lead.

Safety of Polonium-210 Ionization Sources: Polonium-210 (not to be confused with Plutonium) has been constantly and safely used for decades. It is used for various applications including photography and is available in devices sold to the general public in camera stores and other specialty shops.

The large quantity of alpha-energy released by Polonium-210 is so low in energy that it can not penetrate the outermost dead layer of skin (epidermis) or even a plain sheet of paper! Yet the ions it produces can eliminate huge static charges almost instantly. It's a very practical substance.Not the only toxic substance you can buy at a professional photography shop -- there's several others, mostly developing chemicals.

late developer
30th Nov 2006, 14:23
Not the only toxic substance you can buy at a professional photography shop -- there's several others, mostly developing chemicals.Ah but the funny thing is, there seem to be few old, bold PP's (and anyway, most PP's chickened to digital ages ago!).

Lovely bit of spin in that optcorp bumf BTW!

Oh and the smoke alarms JR, apparently usually contain Americium.

PickyPerkins
30th Nov 2006, 15:05
The Washington Post is reporting today on page 1 that a former acting Russian Prime Minister critical of Putin called Yegor Gaidar was taken ill suddenly on Friday in Dublin, vomiting and then losing consciousness for three hours. Poisoning has not been ruled out. He has been flown to Russia. A close colleague now head of the Russian state electric company said that Gaidar was 'on the verge of death' Friday and that the symptoms did not appear to be the result of a natural illness.

Russian officials are quoted as arguing that Litvinenko's death is a plot by overseas disaffected exiles to discredit Putin.

OFBSLF
30th Nov 2006, 16:04
I will however ask how dare anyone do such a reckless thing with knowledge gleaned from one of the world's landmark scientific discoveries?Guess you missed the news flash: evil men do evil things.

If you believe in the bible, that was true in the days of Cain and Abel. It's true today. It will be true in the future.

Man's inhumanity to man is one of the constant truths.

cwatters
30th Nov 2006, 16:13
The Washington Post is reporting today on page 1 that a former acting Russian Prime Minister critical of Putin called Yegor Gaidar was taken ill suddenly on Friday in Dublin <snip>

http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/politics/28.html?menu=1&id_issue=11629375

Nov 29 2006 11:54AM
Gaidar's entourage denies radioactive poisoning
MOSCOW. Nov 29 (Interfax) - The entourage of Yegor Gaidar, a former Russian acting prime minister, has categorically denied reports alleging that he was poisoned by radioactive isotopes.

"Yegor Timurovich [Gaidar] is in Moscow now. His health is satisfactory. He intends to get down to work in the near future," Gaidar's press secretary Valery Natarov told Interfax on Wednesday.

More here..

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/f6f5368e-7ff6-11db-a3be-0000779e2340.html

FakePilot
30th Nov 2006, 16:13
Remember the guy who was elected to head the Ukraine got Dioxin Soup.

Somebody needs to change their choice mode of operation; we're all on to it now.

cwatters
30th Nov 2006, 16:32
I was just reading an article about Polonium being found naturally in tabacco and other things like peaches. It occured to me that perhaps the Russian was given a doctored cigarette. I wonder if he was a smoker?

ILS27LEFT
30th Nov 2006, 16:43
if Polonium 210 is not as dangerous as thought...then why 18 people have been referred to specialist clinics?

mary_hinge
30th Nov 2006, 16:59
if Polonium 210 is not as dangerous as thought...then why 18 people have been referred to specialist clinics?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,1960855,00.html

He said the number of people who had contacted NHS Direct over radiation fears now stood at 1,325. In total, 68 people had been referred to the Health Protection Agency (HPA), with 21 going on to receive specialist assessment.
However, there have been no reports of anyone linked with the inquiry, apart from Mr Litvinenko, becoming seriously ill because of radiation.

Jetstream Rider
30th Nov 2006, 17:00
Polonium is very dangerous. What is not dangerous is extremely tiny amounts of it, that have not been ingested.
18 people have been referred to a clinic as a precaution, in the same way that 3000 or so people were given HIV tests when it transpired that a nurse had HIV. I don't think any of them were found to be positive. If it really were as bad as all that, then other people would have shown symptoms by now.
Further to my post above, Polonium is easier to inhale than I first thought, but still the aircraft in question are unlikely to have Polonium in a suitable form and hardly likely to have very much anyway.
A pepperpot full would certainly kill a town full of people, but only if you gave them a tiny bit to eat or inhale each. Having it sit there warmly in the corner wouldn't be much of a problem. Anyway, only about 100 grams of it are made per year. Have a look at the excellent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonium
and from:
http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/r?dbs+hsdb:@[email protected][email protected]+polonium,+radioactive

Average Daily Intake:
Annual intakes of polonium-210 in the diet ranging from 18 to 220 Bq have been reported in Argentina and Japan, respectively(1). An annual polonium-210 intake of 22 Bq was reported in the US(1).
Body Burden:
The average amount of polonium-210 in the human body is approximately 1X10-9 curie(1).

The top of this article shows a number of results for a few thousand people exposed to Polonium. You will note they didn't all drop dead, and that the excess cancer in some of the studies was a result of more exposure than you would expect on any of the aircraft mentioned.

SaturnV
30th Nov 2006, 17:06
I was just reading an article about Polonium being found naturally in tabacco and other things like peaches. It occured to me that perhaps the Russian was given a doctored cigarette. I wonder if he was a smoker?
Don't eat caribou meat, celery, or certain types of fish.

A doctored cigarette would mean he would inhale it, not ingest it. My understanding is that the symptoms which led him to go to the hospital were consistent with ingestion, not inhalation.

The United States government actually injected polonium 210 in 4 subjects and had one subject ingest it to see what would happen. I can't find the dosage in the reports though. It seems all the subjects died. (When the Germans did similar experiments, they were prosecuted for war crimes.)

A fatal dose of ingested polonium is estimated to be the equivalent of a dust mote, which has nearly zero mass. I think we are talking the equivalent of about a trillionth of a gram. So it would have to be dissolved, and administered in liquid form.

If we assume that after several minute dust mote sized particles are ingested, metabolized, and diffused into soft tissues of the body, then the amount of polonium subsequently released by a radioactive person must be exquisitely small, because a drop of sweat containing a miniscule fraction of a teeny speck must sure be below a harmful dose.

See Oak Ridge National Laboratory Report on polonium exposures and doses here:
http://celiar.home.comcast.net/pdf/05-dfp-015Final.pdf

antilla
30th Nov 2006, 17:10
If I were a very curious assassin transporting polonium, and couldn't resist opening the package to look at my dangerous 'cargo', and sneezed at the wrong moment ...... I could understand my plane becoming contaminated as a result.

However, this doesn't explain the apparent contamination of several aircraft. Are we really to believe that there was a group of assassins/couriers, all travelling on different planes, and all equally curious to examine their packages, and all sneezing at the inappropriate moment?

This story is surely being spun to death - perhaps the flood of anxious public enquiring about their health saves the authorities the trouble of chasing them up? It will, of course, produce a lot of potential eye-witnesses to the transfer process!

PickyPerkins
30th Nov 2006, 17:57
[quote=cwatters;2995224]
Gaidar's entourage denies radioactive poisoning .......
----------------
Glad to hear Gaidar has recovered from "near death" on Friday to "intends to get down to work in the near future" on Thursday with a Dublin-to-Moscow flight in between!

visibility3miles
30th Nov 2006, 18:22
If I were a very curious assassin transporting polonium, and couldn't resist opening the package to look at my dangerous 'cargo', and sneezed at the wrong moment ...... I could understand my plane becoming contaminated as a result.

That's a possible scenario. A more likely one is that they were sloppy, spilled some on the floor, then tracked it on the floor where others picked it up and tracked it elsewhere, like mud. That could explain why they are now saying five planes might be involved.

We don't know if it was a mule or the assassin that contaminated the planes or where the contamination was.

It all depends on where they find it. If I was cabin crew or cleaning crew, I'd ask authorities to check my shoes.

Still, we are talking tiny amounts of what would have been a small quantity to start with. And it is decaying, so becoming less and less of a problem as we speak. It decays to lead, btw, so OH NO! LEAD POISONING! coming to a headline near you.

And yes, although maybe 600 grams of polonium 210 may have been produced at one time per someone on this thread (what I'd seen was that 100 grams a year is produced worldwide), all the people who have or use polonium have publicly stated that no losses or thefts have been reported, so most of it is still under control. On the other hand, someone is obviously not telling the truth, and although it does exist in nature, people don't drop dead of it within days no matter how many cigarettes they smoke or whatever.

Basically, only a tiny amount was needed to kill this unfortunate soul, but what they are detecting is presumably a fraction of a fraction of what the intended target received.

I assume this is more of a forensics investigation, although BA also wants to assure all their customers and staff that they are doing everything they can to protect them from the bogeyman.

flash8
30th Nov 2006, 18:35
If I were a very curious assassin transporting polonium, and couldn't resist opening the package to look at my dangerous 'cargo', and sneezed at the wrong moment ...... I could understand my plane becoming contaminated as a result.
However, this doesn't explain the apparent contamination of several aircraft. Are we really to believe that there was a group of assassins/couriers, all travelling on different planes, and all equally curious to examine their packages, and all sneezing at the inappropriate moment?
This story is surely being spun to death - perhaps the flood of anxious public enquiring about their health saves the authorities the trouble of chasing them up? It will, of course, produce a lot of potential eye-witnesses to the transfer process!

I believe some a/c have been eliminated? So it might just turn out to be two.
Outbound and return.

Whatever, whoever did this was sloppy, or deliberately sloppy.

From Wiki:
Polonium-210, 210Po, is exceedingly rare in nature,[51] and must be artificially manufactured using radioactive bombardment in, for example, a specialised nuclear reactor. Andrea Sella, lecturer in chemistry at University College London, pointed out that "[t]his is not the sort of thing that amateurs could have cooked up in a bathtub. You would have to go to a nuclear lab." (My italics)

Now thats scary.

For once I agree with the hype, not instigated by Bliar or his diminutives this time, but by the media, people are rightly concerned.

This chap was a British Citizen. He was murdered in our capital, under our noses, by an obviously sophisticated group of people with nuclear material. I'd feel far happier knowing who.

Longtimer
30th Nov 2006, 19:11
There is no reason to think the poisoner would be dead unless he ate the stuff or sucked it off his fingers. Unlikely. The poisoner could have washed his hands in Polonium and been quite safe unless he ingested it.

The BA stuff to staff says that the holds are not affected and it is the cabin that is the subject of these tests, so baggage handlers need not worry. I'm sure none of the rest of us need worry either.

Oh, and your smoke detectors contain an Alpha source too. There is an emitter and a detector. If smoke gets inbetween the two, it stops the Alpha getting to the detector and sets it off. I wouldn't be surprised it it were Polonium in them, but it could be many things.
Seems that smoke dectors use Americium.

Americium

The vital ingredient of household smoke detectors is a very small quantity (<35 kBq) of americium-241 (Am-241). This element was discovered in 1945 during the Manhattan Project in USA. The first sample of americium was produced by bombarding plutonium with neutrons in a nuclear reactor at the University of Chicago

sir
30th Nov 2006, 20:53
because a drop of sweat containing a miniscule fraction of a teeny speck must sure be below a harmful dose
Yeah but what if it's homeopathic ? :eek: :E

pulse1
1st Dec 2006, 11:20
Following the Times article, presumably Livitnenko's grave stone will have to have a radioactive sign on it.

late developer
1st Dec 2006, 11:59
Nah, out of sight....and all that.

I see Margaret Beckett is now making demands - soggy chips it is then:}

Bring on the GM potatoes!

Jinkster
1st Dec 2006, 13:31
Some interesting facts from the Moscow Times.

Q: What is radiation?

A: Radiation is the transfer of energy. There are two basic types of radiation: ionizing radiation (X-rays, infrared light, gamma rays) and non-nuclear emissions (ultraviolet light, microwave radiation, mobile phone waves). It is usually only ionizing radiation that concerns health officials.

Q: Why is ionizing radiation dangerous?

A: Ionizing radiation has the potential to change molecules in living cells, including their genetic makeup.

Q: What are the symptoms of radiation sickness?

A: Radiation can cause nausea, vomiting, hair loss and burns.

Q: How is radiation detected?

A: A Geiger counter usually is used to detect radiation.

Q: What is polonium?

A: Polonium is an extremely rare, radioactive heavy metal found in uranium. It can also be manufactured artificially in nuclear reactors.

Q: Is polonium dangerous?

A: As long as polonium does not penetrate the human body, it is not dangerous. Polonium is only lethal when inhaled or ingested.

Q: Is it possible that trace amounts of radiation were left by Alexander Litvinenko after he was poisoned?

A: Yes. Theoretically, Litvinenko could have excreted small amounts of polonium through perspiration. Trace amounts of polonium radiation will still be detectable on surfaces for approximately 260 days -- more than eight months -- after they are left.

Q: Is there a public health risk to people who were in areas found with traces of radioactive material?

A: The public health risk to people who might have come into contact with trace amounts of radioactive material is thought to be extremely low.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2006/12/01/001.html



My personal view - people suffer radiation all the time.

My watch emits radiation - glow in the dark bits!
The Sun
Mobile Phones and christ know what else.

I wouldnt be worried at all unless I'd have been in close contact with Litvinenko or his assasin....

ILS27LEFT
1st Dec 2006, 16:29
The Health Protection Agency confirmed the Italian has a "significant quantity" isotope in his body. This guy was previosuly cleared by Italian and British tests.

The Italian academic is now going to hospital in London.

Russia's former prime minister Yegor Gaidar collapsed in Dublin on November 24, suffering from severe vomiting.
Aides said he had been poisoned as well.


Mr Litvinenko has already died due to Polonium 210.

:mad:

Jinkster
1st Dec 2006, 17:22
Without the thread wandering.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2006/12/01/003.html

Billionaire Suleiman Kerimov, who was seriously injured after crashing his Ferrari in France last Saturday, went from balancing the books at a television factory in Dagestan to controlling an intensely secretive business empire in a decade.

Its been a bad week!

ILS27LEFT
1st Dec 2006, 18:33
:{ :}

Yegor Gaidar became violently ill with a mystery illness
Ex-PM has mystery illness

RTE news reported that the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland is checking the National University of Ireland Maynooth, County Kildare, and the James Connolly Memorial Hospital in Blanchardstown, Co Dublin for the presence of polonium.

Meanwhile, the FBI said it had been asked to join the British investigation into Mr Litvinenko's death..

IRAN:
Consider also that the IAEA has discovered that Iran has produced Polonium 210 in the Tehran Research Reactor. The IAEA Director General’s reports identify two primary uses for Polonium 210: neutron initiators in certain designs of nuclear weapons, and batteries for space satellites. Since Iran has no space satellites or deep space program, the nuclear weapons application is obviously of concern.

Another unmistakable indicator of Iran’s intentions is the pattern of repeatedly lying to and providing false reports to the IAEA. For example, Iran denied testing centrifuges with uranium, denied the existence of a laser enrichment program, denied producing enriched uranium, and denied receiving any foreign assistance in its centrifuge program. In each case, Iran confessed the truth only when confronted with irrefutable technical evidence from IAEA inspections. Iran’s October 2003 submission to the IAEA, a declaration that was supposed to be the correct, complete, and final story of Iran’s nuclear program, omitted any mention of the development and testing of advanced P-2 centrifuges, which IAEA inspectors discovered in early 2004.

RUSSIA:
These "secret cities" of Russia, a total of 35 municipalities that formed part of a single industrial military complex under the auspices of the Soviet Union, are now trying to find their own way out, like boats cast adrift at sea. At the end of last month, from 24-28 October, Moscow was the scene of an unprecedented event when the first congress of the closed cities was held. The 10 ultrasecret municipalities dependent on the Atomic Energy Ministry met to discuss their problems and exhibit the merchandise that they are now producing as a result of the reconversion of the military industry, ranging from carved wooden figures to alarm systems, to children's leotards and paste diamond jewelry. A total of around two million people live in the closed cities of Russia, one million of whom live in dependencies of the Russian Atomic Energy Ministry. The Moscow meeting did not exhibit any weaponry and excluded the 25 municipalities dependent on the Defense Ministry and the Military Industry Committee.

The closed cities are not yet shown on the maps but this is simply a result of inertia, since their location was detailed precisely in the advertising material that was heaped on potential customers.

What they offer is highly diverse: control systems for nuclear power stations, car batteries, wallets, biostimulators for vegetable growth, bottled mineral water, enriched uranium isotopes, highly radioactive waste, kitchen furniture, CD-ROMs, equipment for gas pipelines, mini oil refineries, plutonium 238 and polonium 210 neutron sources, dinner pails, containers for radioactive material, equipment for egg selection, and sheep skin tanners.


Let's hope the USA/Europe/UK Intelligence Services are now keeping an extra eye on these Russian and Iranian issues.

:ok:

late developer
1st Dec 2006, 19:04
Woah! ILS27LEFT! Where are you going with this? Go around, dear boy!

I suggest yours are rather big blocks of text to quote verbatim and stitch together from sources without making the slightest reference to them! IRAN:"From a 2004 speech by John Bolton etc.. etc.." & RUSSIA:"From Nuclear War to the War of the Markets Madrid EL PAIS, 7 Nov 95 p 8 by Pilar Bonet" perhaps? There are protocols I suggest...not that many seem to keep to them, I agree!

ILS27LEFT
1st Dec 2006, 19:23
Thanks Late Developer. Excellent.
It is a good website indeed.
:mad:

cwatters
1st Dec 2006, 19:25
When you enter the UK from France/Belgium by car (ferry or train) they sometimes swab the steering wheel and window sill of your car with a bit of wadding on a stick. I did wonder if that was designed to pick up traces of radioactive material.

cwatters
1st Dec 2006, 19:35
My watch emits radiation - glow in the dark bits!


Must be a few years old that watch... I don't believe they use radioactive materials for that anymore. I inherited my fathers WW2 military compass and discovered that it had hand painted numbers that glowed in the dark. Having seen documentaries on the "Dial painters" I decided I best get it checked out. I called the radiology dept of the local hospital and they invited me to bring it down and have it looked at. Fortunately it wasn't radioactive.

More on the Dial Painters here..
http://www.rerowland.com/dial_painters.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radium_Girls

rmac
1st Dec 2006, 19:41
I am of a mind to consider that the amazing developments in this case point towards an exonoration of Putin and his government. The FSB/SVR can be fairly ruthless, and occasionally useless (Beslan, Moscow Theatre Siege), put I don't suppose that even they are dumb enough to truck around the world on other peoples aircraft leaving a giant snail like radiation track behind them, when a single 9mm bullet to the back of the head would have done the job, in a country (UK) where these days even burger eating 13 year olds can get their hands on a piece of decent hardware to avenge a slight in the McDonald queue.

For those of you familiar with the airline pilot wannabees that annoy you with technically flawed posts, welcome to the world of Bond-abees, young Russian hoodlums, associated with security companies related to the renegade Russian oligarchy, who are unable to understand the beauty of simplicity, and prefer to come up with ego inflating "cunning plans" that reflect their self-image as top notch "KGB" agents. :*

ScienceDoc
1st Dec 2006, 19:54
Mobile Phones and christ know what else.
I wouldnt be worried at all unless I'd have been in close contact with Litvinenko or his assasin....

Mobile phones do not emit ionizing radiation. They do emit radio waves and we all would have long ago mutated to frogs with wings if these would ionize our atoms.

Capt. Queeg
1st Dec 2006, 20:26
So this Russian spy was killed with a knob of processed sandwich meat...???

G-CPTN
2nd Dec 2006, 08:46
When you enter the UK from France/Belgium by car (ferry or train) they sometimes swab the steering wheel and window sill of your car with a bit of wadding on a stick. I did wonder if that was designed to pick up traces of radioactive material.
I suspect (though have no specific knowledge) that the swabs can be analysed to test for drugs and/or explosives.


(Slight) thread drift:-
Remember those 'fluoroscope' devices popular in shoe-shops mid-20th Century? They utilised X-rays to 'illuminate' children's feet within shoes to show the amount of growth-space available. In retrospect they were completely superfluous, as most parents bought oversize shoes to anticipate for the inevitable growth. Surprising (to me) that these devices appeared in the 1930s (you mean they had X-rays way back then?) as a development of discoveries (fluoroscopes) made towards the end of the 19th Century!
I well recall spending hours (well, many minutes) marvelling at the view (whilst my Mother gossiped (and she was a well-accomplished expert), so, bearing in mind the following :- "the level of exposure from a typical machine amounted to 75 Rems per minute. That is to be compared with the current maximum allowed occupational exposure to workers in nuclear power stations in the USA of 5 Rems per year.", how come that MY feet (and, presumably those of all other children, now adults) have survived unscathed? Do we all have deformities? Should we receive counselling? Can we sue? (Shame that the shoe-shop frequented by me closed just recently after probably a century of family ownership, and the remaining spinsters have passed-on - maybe it was the X-rays that finished them off in their 90s?)
Something doesn't quite add-up, or is it that the feet are particularly durable (though there have been stories of these X-rays escaping from the casing of the fluoroscopes)?
I think we should be told, though lessons WERE learned - they outlawed the machines . . .

G-CPTN
2nd Dec 2006, 13:08
Just heard via the Beeb that the Italian Mario Scaramella (who shared a table at the Sushi restaurant with the now-deceased Alexander Litvinenko) afterwards travelled to Italy by Easyjet.
Watch this space . . .

UL730
2nd Dec 2006, 21:05
Remember those 'fluoroscope' devices popular in shoe-shops mid-20th Century?
MY feet (and, presumably those of all other children, now adults) have survived unscathed? Do we all have deformities? Should we receive counselling? Can we sue?


…. I remember the Clarke’s shoe shop in Barnard Castle. Co Durham had one of those magical contraptions and it was a highly entertaining device to a 10 year old. Whilst my younger brother was being fitted with some seriously cool Startright sensible shoes – I surreptitiously popped my pet mouse in to see “what the insides looked like”

Fascinating introduction to critter orthopaedics but the mouse pegged out about 10 days later. Was not very well from that experience onwards and refused to play or be anything approaching fun thereafter.

A salutary warning…. and I have always treated airside x-ray devices with respect since and refuse to allow pets or loved ones to pass through them.

flash8
2nd Dec 2006, 21:28
I am of a mind to consider that the amazing developments in this case point towards an exonoration of Putin and his government. The FSB/SVR can be fairly ruthless, and occasionally useless (Beslan, Moscow Theatre Siege), put I don't suppose that even they are dumb enough to truck around the world on other peoples aircraft leaving a giant snail like radiation track behind them, when a single 9mm bullet to the back of the head would have done the job, in a country (UK) where these days even burger eating 13 year olds can get their hands on a piece of decent hardware to avenge a slight in the McDonald queue.

For those of you familiar with the airline pilot wannabees that annoy you with technically flawed posts, welcome to the world of Bond-abees, young Russian hoodlums, associated with security companies related to the renegade Russian oligarchy, who are unable to understand the beauty of simplicity, and prefer to come up with ego inflating "cunning plans" that reflect their self-image as top notch "KGB" agents. :*

A very lucid post rmac. Congrats. I agree here. Having worked in Russia for four years of my life, day to day with former ГРУ Colonels and all sorts of strange bedfellows I have to say... if anybody can f*ck things up royally its the Russians... but the ГРУ guys I met... they were sharper than a knifes edge, and no way could I see them involved in a botched sloppy operation like this, spoke to a former "colleague" the other day and asked his opinion, and he said look closer to home, Mr. B. for one.

G-CPTN
2nd Dec 2006, 23:02
I surreptitiously popped my pet mouse in to see “what the insides looked like”
Fascinating introduction to critter orthopaedics but the mouse pegged out about 10 days later. Was not very well from that experience onwards and refused to play or be anything approaching fun thereafter.
Well THAT seems to confirm that the whole think wasn't an elaborate confidence trick I suppose. Brilliant! :ok:
Nowadays, of course, you could have sued the shoeshop as they didn't have a notice declaring 'don't put your pet mouse in here' . . .

zlin242
5th Dec 2006, 14:54
and it all leads back to one place...

Hey Flash8, read your PM's!!