Wats happening to QANTAS perth [Archive]

MIss Behaviour

28th Nov 2006, 02:30

Crossbleed:

In China and other countries such as India if they want a quick turnaround they have a access to a much higher pool of cabin cleaners at their disposal to expedite the mission. If an aircraft needs a quick turnaround they can send another 30 cleaners to an aircraft if required.

In Australia whoever does the cleaning only has a limited amount of employees on shift so if it takes 40 minutes to clean and cater a 747 then that's what it takes.

soldier of fortune

28th Nov 2006, 04:10

re above post
i think i can provide a solution to qf perth's problem:-in regarding to cleaning the b747:
qantas should apply to the goverment to bring out a whole bunch of low paid foreign workers on 457 visa's- on usd$2.55 per hour- make them work 23.5 hours a day. house them all in a shipping container at the end of the airport -make them pay qf back for the cost's of bringing them out here.
hang on we already have that don't we with jq :eek: :eek: :ugh:

hannibal lector

28th Nov 2006, 04:16

I remember when people enjoyed working in an airline and would do anything to ' Get the job done '. But with all the low morale and management squeezing every drop of blood out of there employees to save a $ or 2 who even tries anymore. Oneday there will be a worker revolt against management. Lookout the current management of perth your time has come. The job won't be done how you want it cos your screwing the workers. This is not India or China. There is a reason why our planes fly and its not thru management. The goodwill is almost gone, what have they done. I can only hope as a regular pax they remain on the ball but i am not hopeful.......................

Whiskey Oscar Golf

28th Nov 2006, 07:57

Ahhh good, we are back to the setting of undoable timescales then bagging you when you can't fulfill them. I hope those scheds were done by some specialist time manager who got paid a huge consultancy rate to "neaten up your performance". Interesting you are going into enterprise negotiations, you will probably get pulled up on your performance and told to tighten your belt or like our chinese quoting friend says, told you cannot compete with our low cost friends. Either way you and the rest of us are ..........

numbskull

28th Nov 2006, 08:57

Engineers are getting screwed over their rosters.

Maybe they're adopting the inflexible attitude of management or maybe they're just running out of people who give a toss!!

The Bungeyed Bandit

29th Nov 2006, 08:15

qfcainer, they are not having their pay cut by 20%. They are getting paid as per award, no more and no less!

numbskull

29th Nov 2006, 08:27

Bungeye you are both right and wrong at the same time. Their take home pay is cut but they are still being paid as per the award.

It would also probably be true to say that the Perth LAMES are still working exactly to their award and job descriptions- no more and no less!!.

Who wins - QF, passengers, LAMES?????

The answer is No One!!!!!!!

domo

29th Nov 2006, 08:36

any sigh of management and workers nutting this out to a solution

Bumpfoh

30th Nov 2006, 10:58

:= ACS management decide to attack the previously negotiated rostering arrangement in PER to "reduce cost" and put the wind up the rest of ACS around the country where significant change to rostering is also proposed with expected opposition.

I suspect PER was chosen as this base had the predominant 4 on 4 off 12 hour shift pattern like most other bases in ACS. As no major scheduled maintenance takes place in PER the perceived impact to operations would be minimal aside from transit delays. :hmm:
After protracted negotiations with a roster committee and management a vote was held on an unacceptable (I believe still 4 on 4 off but now 10.9 hours, i.e loss of pay and RDO). No surprise a resounding NO vote so management threaten a return to 8 hour shift in contravention of the EBA and the agreed 12 hour pattern. Union intervention ensues and subsequent dispute ends up in the IRC. As the laws now favour the employer an adverse judgement is handed down and wella, the 8 hour shift is implemented.:eek:

Any wonder the troops aren't happy in PER with substantial lifestyle change and depending on the licence ratings held a considerable drop in take home pay.:mad:

Well done M another section within QF engineering F#@%ed by you.:mad: :mad: :mad:

domo

6th Dec 2006, 09:54

any news on the dark days in perth
is christmas leave been cancelled
heard engineers are walking out the door.
not sure if resiging or taking a package
WA is booming and there are a lot of companies that will look after ther workers

soldier of fortune

7th Dec 2006, 00:56

3 LAME'S resigned last week from per acs-with out the package-from what i hear -things are getting a little wild out west with some STRANGE things going on

YesTAM

8th Dec 2006, 06:31

The whole idea many years ago was to replace the eight hour shift plus overtime, with a twelve hour shift but no overtime.

The idea was that everyone except the federal Treasurer won. There was a slight decrease in pay - which was minimal after tax, and in return you got a long weekend.

Trouble is, QF seems to think that they can negotiate a win/lose situation with them doing all the winning, and the LAME's doing all the losing. No one at QF has obviously worked out why the rosters are what they are in the first place.

UPPERLOBE

8th Dec 2006, 20:06

Correct YesTAM,

The lessons of history are never learnt, having had some hands on exp with Line Maint rostering, I can assure you that each imported new broom had to be educated as to why the roster and just about every other function was like it was and how it got to be that way. Was always so much easier when the new broom came from the ranks.

However, it seems that the current broom has it's own fixed ideas and is not interested in history or past experience and zealously sticks to it's textbook management style.

The rationale is "well, if we don't slash costs we will cease to exist" my question is do they really care either way. Creating the leanest operation, whether it's in house or outsourced is all there is, bottom line is whatever dovetails with the current fiscal goal.

86 years and still going.....but where?

rammel

9th Dec 2006, 07:18

What managers don't seem to realise about rosters, is that the times are dictated by the schedule. Now everyone knows that it will include all sorts of hours, so the people are happy to work shift work. When it comes to the rostering you can either not care, or make so it is not too bad for the people working it. From what I see at QF at the moment they either don't care or are to busy saving cents, but wasting dollars.

I'm asuming that on the previous roster sick leave wasn't too bad if it was a roster people liked. If people don't like a roster sick leave goes up, which then also has overtime worked go up. So in the end there is no saving, just p!ssed off workers. Which seems to be what they want from the contempt that are showing everyone at the moment.

Or could this change be related to the EBA negotiations? I've noticed a few little things lately happen, which could be related to this, from both sides. Only a thought.

UPPERLOBE

9th Dec 2006, 07:18

Unfortunately, the 8 hour shift suits the company. The employee has to report to work much more often over the shift cycle. That means less o/t and the company can change start times to cover the workload. Plus they can include plenty of 0700 starts to reduce the wage average.

company_spy

9th Dec 2006, 10:34

Upperlobe, the 8 hour roster was the last thing the company wanted, in fact it was quite openly stated by local management that it would never happen. Believe me they know how damaging to the business this roster is, however the AIRC ruled in favour of the ACS manager way over on the East coast. Voila we are at stale mate.

Now the local guys came up with a few alternatives that wouyld have been to the benefit of al concerned, but the jack boot management style must be enforced at all costs. Well as long as all concerned hang tough, the costs will be alot higher than the Fuhrer can possibly fathom.

soldier of fortune

9th Dec 2006, 20:50

as long as our brother's from base camp keep going over to per to help them out this is going to be a long drawn out dispute:= := :=

Syd eng

9th Dec 2006, 21:35

Heard the other day there is only one classic sparky over there with LE training. Also heard of sparkies flying over and back with them for licence coverage.

Bolty McBolt

10th Dec 2006, 04:29

Lets not put the boot into the guys from SYD whom are doing the relief work in PER.

The fact that management have to fly guys over to Perth and house them, pay allowances etc is costly and proves that the anti-social 8 hour roster forced apon the guys as a threat and intimidation DOES NOT WORK !
To send the guys over must come from high up as non of the managers will release people from their departments to relieve on any OCS projects due to how it effects their budget/targets paying for manpower which they arent using.

Its about to get interesting :ouch:

Kiwiconehead

10th Dec 2006, 05:58

So what was the reason for voting down the 10.9 shift, besides money? Perth was never a real 24hr base as I remember so what hours were they planning on the new roster.

chemical alli

10th Dec 2006, 08:32

so should the guys from syd fly to perth and relieve for the le ? Whilst the company hasnt done any le training in years also didnt the same sparkies that are now undermining the perth engineers by travelling to said port whinge and bleet when they lost the le case in the commission. once again management laugh at us so called profesionals,unless we stand together nation wide we will all be backstabbing each other come the first awa.as for the:ugh: alaea put the 8hr to a vote nation wide and see if finally we have the cohonos to rescind the twelve hour that will save the company a fortune

sickofqf

10th Dec 2006, 22:09

Big Kev will send them If he's not paying for it. I'm sure the Perth Manager paid for the Base guys services.

another case of Big Kevs base heroes saving the qf world and screwing all lame's including themselves ?

Name and shame ?

soldier of fortune

11th Dec 2006, 00:33

yes -you will never find a finer bunch of hero's than the men from base camp-
"yeh guys-you want to do the phased A chks on the NG fleet-come on over we know you will do them for nothing"

when there is trouble around the port's -base camp's hand picked rapid reaction force will be there-just don't forget those knive's boy's so you can wedge them in deeper:D :D :D

profit B4 people

11th Dec 2006, 05:27

While I agree 100% with what our brothers in perth are fighting for, I do not feel it is fair to call someone a scab when they are rostered on & have been told 'go there and fix that'. It's not voluntary and if you refuse isn't that refusal of duty?

Bolty McBolt

11th Dec 2006, 05:35

MENDAERO
Given that, do we let the A/C sit on the ground till job's are replaced, or fix them late and at a huge cost to the company, by flying people in from interstate to fix AOG A/C.
I propose all QF LAME's consider, turning down all O/T except for interstate AOG's.
Let's see how their budgets work with LAME's criss-crossing the country to fix broken A/C.

Thankyou Mendearo My point exactly.
MH went to the commision straight off the bat after the 10.9 roster was voted down. The commision didn't rule on a roster or anything close.
The ruling handed down was that we were not to take any action of the industrial kind over the roster issue in Perth.

Therefore if you refuse duties asked of you that you would normally not hesitate at you are treading on thin ice as the company and commision may interpret your actions as a type of ban.
Rumour has it since the Perth guys have been on the 8 hour roster many of them have not been available to do the extra treks into work for O/T (except for the odd kiwi conehead).
I wouldn't be available either !
I hear this issue is about to come to a head and the company plans to stand someone down for refusing O/T.

If this happens ??????

Are all the guys in Perth on relief all from Big Kevs dept??

chemical alli

11th Dec 2006, 07:16

so the so called base maint heros get slandered for not refusing a company order,whilst i dont actually agree to what they have done,what option do they have ? also lets look at the terminal heros who come to base to certify for the A330 whilst the super 330 crews have no licence coverage due to annual leave or sickies.only last week did a 330 terminal lame carry out a night shift at base caamp certifying for no less than fifteen individuals,who he himself wouldnt have known half of the guys or what qualifications they hold,starting to tread on thin ice when it comes to adequate supervision and licence coverage.maybe casa will recieve a letter:rolleyes:

Sunfish

11th Dec 2006, 07:45

In other words, are the posters here saying that Qantas aircraft are unsafe in that their maintenance has not been carried out by authorised staff and signed off by authorised staff?

I'm all ears.

chemical alli

11th Dec 2006, 08:04

the reason why nobody brings the adequate supervision to task is that their all sh%t scared of the repercussions/you know labelled a trouble maker and so forth.but a word to the wise is it better to put yourself in the spotlight for a true safety belief or risk going to court for a maintanance error that the companies will stand and testify that you were the one to sign the aircraft out and that they have processes in place all above board:rolleyes:

rammel

11th Dec 2006, 08:36

A few posts back someone mentioned the company going to the commission if people refuse to work overtime. I can't see how the company could win this, as if you are off roster you have no obligation to work. If you are on roster and your shift ends, you also have no obligation to stay back.

A few times at 0100 in the morning I have seen guys at the end of their shift say no to O/T and were going to leave the aircraft on the ground. They wanted 4 hour call ins for 1/2 hr work, of course they got it otherwise it would have cost the company even more.

The only time that you have the company by the balls is if you are the last shift at night and an aircraft is delayed, and due to depart after your rostered finish time.

Another Number

11th Dec 2006, 08:38

Just wait till :eek:Macquarie:uhoh: get their paws into Qantas! :sad:

chemical alli

11th Dec 2006, 09:59

you will find in the award agreement that you are required to work a reasonable amount of overtime.this then begs the question since it has never been taken to task.what constitutes a reasonable amount.i guess its the same as what constitutes adequate supervision? all in all very loosely written.i think just about every lame has achieved a reasonable amount due to it being factored into rosters at certain ports .
be warned though saying no with out a good excuse can leed to hot water. my personel favorite is ive just drunk eight beers no recourse there

domo

11th Dec 2006, 14:34

I'm a little out of touch with what's been going on in BNE. What are LAME's doing in spain? Is this A380 stuff?

its got to do with raaf a330 tanker project

how does a dude get a copy of the voice

Redstone

12th Dec 2006, 00:32

sickofqf

12th Dec 2006, 00:55

Have a look here

http://www.voxengineer.com/

As for "base camp heros saving the world" it makes a change for the guys to be asked to relieve due to lack of manpower............as opposed to lack of ability.

Great, attack your own...just what M would love to see !

If you relieve in Perth you are a SCAB. If you got over and back in your rostered shift under orders from BK then you are not. ( good luck getting there AND back and still doing any work, don't forget you're on the clock for ALL the travelling !!)

If you are a Hero and you relieve in PER don't forget...undies on the outside and a red cape....just so the Perth boys know where you came from !!!

Mobi LAME

12th Dec 2006, 01:10

It is always an intriguing question as to what is reasonable. If, and it's a big if, the management were to award an annual wage increase of say 5% over the course of an EBA they would no doubt be trumpeting it from the highest tower as a 'generous' increase in pay. As they state now that an annual increase of 3% is fair, one could assume that 4% would be reasonable. Supposing that 2000 work hours per year is approx a 40 hr week, ergo 80 hrs O/T per year would be reasonable. How could they complain if one did an extra day per month to fullfill that criteria. That probably doesn't fit into their 'chained to the oar' work philosophy where you slave away for your life until you croak, whereupon they then just ease you over the side. Up 'em for the rent!

UnderneathTheRadar

12th Dec 2006, 04:35

Reasonable - as will be the test applied in any court case - will involve Qantas listing your previous OT history and demonstrating that it is now significantly less.

Unless you can prove some other change in circumstances that explains it then they'll win easily.

Be careful guys!

UTR.

Bumpfoh

12th Dec 2006, 10:49

Now that the test case is well under way in PER, ACS management appear to have mustered up the bravado to mount an all out attack on MEL. :yuk:

After having an in principle draft agreement between the company and an ALAEA supported negotiating team, HR have stuck their beak in and inserted a non-negotiable 4 week termination of agreement clause into the document. :ugh:
Of course the ALAEA opposed this and withdrew their endorsement, subsequnetly the company has withdrawn from the agreement and are "reviewing their position". :mad:

Dare I say it but here comes the 8 hour shift boys.:eek:

I save the term Cee U Next Tuesday for special occasions, this is one of these occasions for an apt desription of the imcumbant ACS management.:E

rudderless1

12th Dec 2006, 11:31

M, did you think about this? Your yank advisors are costing you money in Perth and now Melbourne. :confused:

PineapplefarmerWA

12th Dec 2006, 11:50

:D
To tell the truth,I just love it!!!!

Is this 8 hour roster the worst thing that can happen?

NO

OK,maybe I miss the 4 day breaks,but getting off in the middle of the day now allows me more time to get things done around the house and to pick the kids up from school and sometimes cook the dinner.

And as for the late starts e.g. 1930-0330,well I can now have dinner at home, and then enjoy the whole next day before returning to work.

And as for the pay drop?Well this is the first pay,and boy if that is as bad as it gets without doing O/T,well me and my family can live with that.

Although I do feel for those blokes who live way out.

If this is how M wants us uncooperative,rebel LAMEs to suffer,well I must be weird,because I no longer feel fatigued before or after shift.In fact, I can't believe how good I feel everyday I turn up.And if it was so bad,then why are some of the newly formed crews having bonding sessions with days out to the pub,golfing days,etc?

So far this is a winner for the majority of LAMEs,and the company will have trouble getting the required numbers to get ANY extended shift patterns back in.

Thanks QE

Merry Christmas to ALL

Sunfish

12th Dec 2006, 20:42

The original reason for the twelve hour shift was because almost everyone was collecting four hours of overtime, and the taxman was then taking at least half of that extra money. This in effect ment that people were working 60 hour weeks with only two days off. LAMES at Ansett at least had decided by 1980 that it just wasn't worth it.

They put the 12 hour idea to me back in about 1980, it looked like a win/win to us, the only loser being the tax man. I dutifully carried it up the tree, but Abeles made it quite clear that he wasn't going to be the one to break the sanctity of the "Eight hour Day" for obvious reasons and the proposal died.

I would suggest that the Eight hour shift is all about coverage and flexibility for management, not about money. You are "at the office" an extra day and are therefore available to work extra overtime if required, thus allowing the management to get by with less staff by working you harder....................

...Or something like that, you guys no more about the details than I do.

company_spy

14th Dec 2006, 00:53

as long as our brother's from base camp keep going over to per to help them out this is going to be a long drawn out dispute:= := :=

yes -you will never find a finer bunch of hero's than the men from base camp-
"yeh guys-you want to do the phased A chks on the NG fleet-come on over we know you will do them for nothing"

when there is trouble around the port's -base camp's hand picked rapid reaction force will be there-just don't forget those knive's boy's so you can wedge them in deeper

Never let the truth get in the way of good old fashioned muck raking hey Soldier? The only guys from "base camp" (as you so eloquently put it) who have ventured west of the Alice recently, were in Perth to fix a rudder defect. Now this might seem somewhat unpalatable to you and a small gaggle of other like minded people, however the basic facts of the matter are as follows (I will be brief so as not to confuse you);

There are many tasks of a technical nature that many line station engineers are either unwilling or unable to tackle.

It is now and has allways been the norm for the "Base Camp" engineers to perform these taks where evr they may occur so they may be accomplished with a minimum of fuss.

These tasks crop up from time to time.

They always have and always will (airplanes break)

Don't sling mud at the Syd Base Guys, they were not transiting aircraft in lieu of Perth blokes.

Pull your head in.

sickofqf

14th Dec 2006, 03:12

There are many tasks of a technical nature that many line station engineers are either unwilling or unable to tackle.

It is now and has allways been the norm for the "Base Camp" engineers to perform these taks where evr they may occur so they may be accomplished with a minimum of fuss.

These tasks crop up from time to time.

Maybe so for big jobs or highly complex ones.
A yaw damper ? I don't think so !!

company_spy

14th Dec 2006, 04:45

Rudder ratio actually, but never the less this is not uncommon. Especially if the job entails operating at heights or specialist equipment. The OH&S nazzis have seen to that.

Despite what you may think sickofqf, out stations seem to have a different interpretation of "big" or "highly complex" jobs but that is not what we are discussing here. Irrespective of local disquiet these guys would still have been sent to rectify the defect. If as you are implying this is a routine task carried out in Perth, then why did the locals not take the opportunity to dive into the task and make sure they took their time to aquit it in a leasurly fashion observing necessary shift handover briefings etc.....;) ?

Because that's not the sort of work done there

Lay off Syd Base, no one there has done anything to undermine the Perth guys.

soldier of fortune

28th Dec 2006, 17:28

seem's DH's days are numberd and soon to be replaced by a personality from S.I.T:8 :8

N.E.R.D.

29th Dec 2006, 05:47

[
I]There are many tasks of a technical nature that many line station engineers are either unwilling or unable to tackle.
It is now and has allways been the norm for the "Base Camp" engineers to perform these taks where evr they may occur so they may be accomplished with a minimum of fuss.
These tasks crop up from time to time.[/I]

Flying in a bug smasher to non-maintenace port then fixing broken aircraft must not require any technical skill then!!!! Maybe “Base Camp” brothers should go and help out the unable/unwilling perth line enginners bring the AOG aircraft back.

out stations seem to have a different interpretation of "big" or "highly complex"

When outstation enginners are not being “rescued” by their “Base Camp” brothers they can manage all manner of non technical tasks like HMU’s, Rudder PCU’s, spoiler actuators an a wide array of non technical “Black Boxes”.

Work cover WA even issues them with Elevated Work Platform Licenses to get to some of the non technical tasks.

routine task carried out in Perth, then why did the locals not take the opportunity to dive into the task and make sure they took their time to aquit it in a leasurly fashion observing necessary shift handover briefings etc.....

The new 8 hour roster is so grossly deficient of licence coverage and manpower that the local guys can hardly turn around transiting aircraft, so as a result the AOG aircraft sit there until manpower is available. There is no handover briefing because in some cases the oncoming l/h does not start work for an hour or more after the last l/h is rostered to finish.

To say there is “local disquiet” is misleading. The perth enginners are averaging $250 per week real pay reduction with the roster change. The roster is being changed on an individual basis with the Award minimum 2 days notice, so no ability to establish work/home balance.

There is no ban on overtime or higher duties, the guys are mainly getting single days off so they choose to spend it at home. They choose not to do higher duties because the lack of manpower and licence coverage makes it unattractive for the remuneration given for doing higher duties.

Company spy stick to commenting on issues and work areas you know and leave the BS for the company email spam ok!! :mad: