Jerez V Oxford: Again!

[cfwake]

Hi guys!

Right, a fairly simple one this one and one that will hopefully not string off for too long!

I've passed the tests to get into the Oxford APP which if i go will be starting around June/July next year. But I'm going to Jerez in January to do the tests. I was hoping to speak to someone who has been to both and has a good idea of if there is any difference in the airline's eyes as to which is preferable. I have a fair guess that whichever i go to i won't be going far wrong as the feedback that I get is that both are regarded extremely highly, but if i have an offer from both I have a choice and I may find it very difficult to decide. Oxford, in my experience, are an extremely eager, professional outfit who have a lot of time for you as long as you put the effort in, they seem to have a1 facilities that Jerez falls behind on and the quality of teaching seems to be pretty much identical.

Jerez, on the other hand, seems to be the best in europe in many people's eyes, with slightly more outated technical facilities (i refer to the 125 sim vs 2 737 sims in particular) and no comparable course to Oxford's JOC or First officer fundamentals. Not wishing to start a discussion on the importance of these as people will undoubtedly have their own opinions, but is the technical and tutoring advantage of Oxford outweighed by just how good Jerez is? Is Jerez so much better than any other flying school or is the real-world difference minimal? I get the impression that any line looking for pilots tends to see Oxford and Jerez at a similar if not identical level.

Essay over any information will be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks
Chris Wake

[rogueflyer01]

There are plenty of threads dedicted to both schools. For oxford i would pay attention to the oxford thread and especially to the following post:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2942801&postcount=96

A few things you wont hear from Oxford but I wish I knew prior to going there. Their average course size is 25 people per month, that equates to 300 students a year. If you look at the “Employment Statistics” section on their website, graduate jobs for 2006 currently stands at 141 that equates to a successful graduate employment figure of 47%

From my experience Oxford career services should only be claiming that they have managed to gain employment for the following companies BA, BA Connect, Excel, FlyBe and Jet2, which is a grand total of 61 jobs (21%) according to their latest web site figures (2006) If you take into account the GECAT scheme where you have to pay ₤500.00 for an assessment and then fund your own type rating, then you have BMI, BMI Baby, Easyjet and Thomas Cook which totals 33 (11%) but this is more a GECAT success than Oxford career services. Combining these 2 figures together (being generous towards OAT) it comes to 32% graduate employment. A further 47 (16%) of graduates have managed to gain employment from their own initiatives. This leaves 159 (52%) students without jobs, zero help from Oxford careers services and a whopping debt yet you have paid over the odds for a careers service that is no where near as successful as it claims to be.

To be in this 32% there are some un-written rules that you will not be aware of when you start your APP course. To stand any chance of the selection board giving you a recommendation at the end of your training you need to have ground school first time passes with an average of 85+% you will need “3” or better in all flight tests and a first series IR. Any mistakes along the way during your training will rule you out of receiving any recommendation from OAT’s selection board. Even if you do achieve this standard your face needs to fit, they have to “decide” to like you and you have no control over this.

You need to also be aware of the EPST (European Pilot Selection & Training) Dutch contingent, they get preferential treatment especially when being put forward for jobs due to contractual obligations between then and Oxford, so any English student is immediately disadvantaged.

The 16% who find employment through their own imitative were binned by Oxford yet when Oxford hear of their success, they suddenly pull your name out of the bin and proudly put it on their “Graduate Jobs Board” and put you in as a statistic on their web site as if you are one of their success stories.

Overall you have a less than 1 in 3 chance of successfully being employed through OAT

The actual school and their training I have no problem with however I take issue with the misleading marketing spin they employ, you believe that you are paying a premium for the use of OAT’s many contacts in the airline industry, their careers service and the so called employment boom that is apparently about to happen in the next month or two (after 2 years of this it wears thin!!)

If I knew all these facts before going to OAT, I would have perhaps gone elsewhere and definitely have gone down the Modular route as the truth about the integrated course is just hype and does not deliver a job in the fashion they would have you believe. Taking the cheaper modular route will mean that you will still spend the ₤60,000+ but included in this cost will be a type rating that you will most probably have to pay for.

Other schools integrated courses may be similar, I don’t know, I can only comment on my own experience, This post is not intended to just slate Oxford, I feel it is important for any wannabe to know that before parting with a huge sum of money that you know precisely what you are going to get for that money and the fact that there is a very good chance that you will graduate and then be left to your own devices with a monumental debt. You very quickly become the forgotten Oxford student; there are many of us out there!

One final piece of advice: Read between the lines of all the marketing spin thrown at you! At the end of the day it’s your decision and you need to be able to live with that.


:ouch:

I to was offered a place @ OAT and the above post with some careful financial research opened my eyes.


Oxford thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=254025

Remember you will be spending in the region of 80K @ Oxford

FTE thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=215158


I believe both sims @ oxford & Jerez are FNPT2 and yes oxfords ressembles a 737 but the likes of BA, TF, Flybe etx recruit from FTE too.

Well if you ask me FTE is the better of the 2 simply because they told me the truth from day one and if i was going the integrated route it would be my choice. Oh yes and its allot cheaper without comprimising on quality.

Good luck in whatever decision you make.

+RF

[scroggs]

Hi guys!
Rif there is any difference in the airline's eyes as to which is preferable. I have a fair guess that whichever i go to i won't be going far wrong as the feedback that I get is that both are regarded extremely highly, but if i have an offer from both I have a choice and I may find it very difficult to decide.

It never ceases to amaze me that, despite the fact that 'airlines prefer Oxford/FTE/Cabair/CTC' (delete according to whichever you don't attend), students from good old bog average modular schools still get jobs. In fact (shock/horror scoop of the week), more airline pilots come from the modular route than the integrated route.

Strange that, innit? I wonder if anyone's told the OAT/FTE/Cabair?CTC marketing peeps?

Do you know what else? Some of us airline pilots didn't go to public school either - but don't tell the Press - or the Integrated schools; they might be disappointed!

Scroggs

[aircockroaches]

I just love reading Scroggs' replies....

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Just to nitpick for a second. Jerez boasts a HS125 simulator which is a FULL sim, on hydraulics, which has been approved for actual type training so it does actually fly just like the aircraft. OATS have a 'simulator' which has been designed to look quite like a 737 and to behave in a similar way.

The first is a very expensive piece of kit and the latter is less so.

But then wannabes are very impressed with how 'cool' the flightdeck looks.

My advice. Go modular, use the cash to pay for a type rating - its working for increasing numbers of people. Sadly.

WWW

[Callsign Kilo]

I went to Oxford for one of their open days and then later for assessment. At the time I was keeping my options very open to what route I was going to take. I can't deny I was impressed by what OAT had on display. Nice clean modern facilities, their own range of 1st class ATPL texts, initial training in the USA, a modern fleet of aircraft, links to all the airlines, a little uniform and a name badge for you to wear, a 737 sim for your MCC......................bloody hell, hold on here.......after 3 years working for a sales and marketing company I was ready to take the 'Oxford sales and marketing model' back to my employers...these guys were damn good!! They had all their best students on parade that day (incidentally 3 of them that I met now have jobs with BA - I know this from looking at Oxford's student Alumni site) and they all seemed to have been briefed on what and what not to say! We had a fantastic motivational talk from one of their head honchos, who spoke of this miraculous employment boom and of the global pilot shortage. OAT's long standing history with the airlines was highlighted again and again, and my favourite line of the day, "when you go to major airports like Heathrow and Gatwick, the majority of pilots that you see there are Oxford men and women!"

By the end of the day, I would say that if you had given about 90% of the people who attended the open day a piece of paper and a pen, they would have asked "where do I sign?" And this was, I must admit, all done with very little mention to COST. Sure HSBC loans were spoken about, and the 'play it safe figure' of £60,000 was banded about, however what wasn't mentioned was the cost of everything else. Living expenses, travel, and heaven forbid should you need them; exam and test resit fees, extra lessons, and finally, the pres de resistance, the £20,000 for the TYPE RATING that you will probably have to shell out for!!

Anyway, being a dunderhead, I was hooked and signed up for assessment. It was after all, the number one FTO; it would give me a better chance than any of getting a job. After all I would sale through the training with no problems what so ever with this lot!

Well, I went back for assessment a few weeks later and the rosy Oxford picture didn't seem so rosy. This time, all their students were on parade, and some weren't so happy. I spoke to some who were struggling a little and felt they were being left behind. Some others told me to forget budgeting for £60,000 - it would take £80,000+; especially if you were living away from home. And all this trooping around in uniforms reminded me too much of school!
Sure, I spoke to others that were loving it; they were off to Phoenix in a few weeks and were doing well. I met a few guys who already had been forwarded to BA for interview and they hadn't even done their MCC yet! But one thing that I couldn't get out of my head was what if I didn't do so well here, what if I struggled, what if I got left behind? Would Oxford be interested then? Well to be perfectly honest, I'm not so sure? As a result, I gave up on Oxford and the whole integrated scene after that. It wasn’t for me, and I’m not sorry about it!

[SinBin]

Recently I went to an 1 day interview prep course at Oxford, which was all APPed up, with little old modular fella (me), stuck in there. In all my life I have never met a more unwelcoming bunch of people except about 2. They all talked at me about how great it was that they were going to walk into a job and what a shame, poor little old me was just a modular fella. Spouting OAT's website almost word for word. I was called the 'guest', I thought, 'bugger off I paid for this!'

In all my life I have never known anything like it, they made no effort to know me and what I do, and they really do believe they are better than the rest. The only clear advantage it gives you is BA, and I don't fancy working for them right now with that pension farce.

I'm a proud modular guy, save the dosh and pay for a type rating WWW is a wise man! That's what I'm doing as I've given up on Flybe besides some of the major TRTOs do actually get people jobs without all the marketing ****e, I know many from GECAT who got interviews a week after finishing and then started work soon after.

My 2p's worth!

[cfwake]

hi everyone

thank you for all the info which i have read and had time to digest.

i must say i have actually been to OAT for a very thorough look around and cannot find a bad thing to say about it. everyone that i have met has been extremely frienldy, and that includes those students that i was not introduced to.

i would like to add that i am extremely aware of the financial benefit of heading to FTE over OAT, but while people do make comments about OAT bigging their link with the airlines up, I have spoken to many, many people in the industry, pilots as well as educational and recruitment staff and i would argue that their boasts are justified. I would also add that FTE makes reference to their links with industry as well. I would not hold this against anyone as at the end of the day these people want your business and it would be negligent and a poor marketing strategy not to make mention of thoise airlines who recruit pilots from each school, wouldn't you if you were trying to fill places for your own school??

adding to that, i would remind people that no flying school ever says that they have links with airlines and that other schools do not, there is a line between advertising and false information.

most of the answers have revolved around modular vs integrated courses. i would like to interject and state that that wasn't actually a debate i was concerning myself with as i am definitely going integrated, while i understand the cost and flexibility benefits, this is a route that i am not going down and i am happy with the financial implications; i have been researching into flying jobs for years as many other people and have come to a personal decision that i am fortunate enough to be able to secure finance for this route.

the sim argument, i would argue, i a valid one and the reason i ask, but i would argue for the 737 sims as these are more representative of the aircraft type that one would fly in career mode for an airline. while it may not be worth almost twelve thousand cheaper, i would advise against rubbishing the value of this but who am i to say that i haven't started my course yet even!!!

but thank you very much for the replies, the modular debate is interesting but not for me.

Scroggs, however, i would like to consder your points. you mentioned that some airline pilots didn't go to public school. well some do and indeed some of us trainees did so watch your comments on that issue as it could appear insulting and ill-informed.

i never insinuated that modular pilots have fewer employment prospects than integrated students but i have done a lot of research into the issue and for my two cents i would argue that for some (not all) airlines, an integrated student may be seen as a preferable option to a modular student, as it may well be the other way round for others.

scroggs, i would never dumb down the modular route as it is the same hard work and sometimes is probably harder due to external pressures usually places on mod guys over integs. Perhaps you should consider that you are suggesting that those pilots who go down an integrated route are foolish for doing so.

thank you all for the comments, i look forward to your replies (especially scroggs - don't take it personally mate!)

[rogueflyer01]

Sounds like you have already made up your mind old chap...best of luck..:}

p.s. awaiting scroggs reply (this should be good)..:p

[Callsign Kilo]

Chris,

You sound like a sensible fellow, and it obviuosly sounds like you are suited to the integrated life - I wish you well on that. There is no doubt out there that Oxford have everything to back up the reputation that they boast, as do the likes of CTC or FTE for that matter. As long as airlines continue to lift the phone and ask for cadets to be sent for interview, their reputation can remain intact. Placing aside their standard of training, which is without doubt very good, it is maybe because of this fact that they feel they can charge a little more. Saying all this, I can't detract from the opinion that a lot of people can be taken up by the 'hype' which is involved with an airline approved integrated course. I'm not saying that you are an example of one of these people, all I'm saying is it may be prudent to be aware of the pitfalls - however it sounds like you have already! Best of luck again.

CK

[Dr Eckener]

for my two cents
If you only have 2 cents, who is funding your training?:E

[cfwake]

cheers guys! rogueflyer01 not quite!! nearly but i want to see what FTE say - the only reason i can say so much about OAT and less about FTE is that i haven't been there yet!!! cheers foir wishing me luck i'm fairly sure that wherever i end up there'll be plenty of times that i'll need it!!!!!

Dr Eckener, i actually only do have two cents especially with chrimbo around the corner!!!!!! luckily HSBC and some other sources have more that they can lend me - and i emphasise - they're definitely only lending it to me!!!!!!!!!!

Ck thanks very much, i very much appreciate your advice!!! it's something that i've become increasingly wary of as time has gone on!!

[cfwake]

can i also ask, WWW, when you said about the sims, what did you mean?! i realise with you having said that, that this may be something i didn't know! are you saying that the OAT sims are not approved for TR etc? i would add that they are on a 3 axis hydraulic system too - i saw them the other day and they're massive!!! they're saying about getting a CRJ sim soon too - but if my TR wouldn't be part of the course anyway, presumably it doesn't really make a difference (up to the point of a non-type rated ATPL) if the sims are representative or fully fledged home from homes?!

cheers!

[Lucifer]

Exactly - they are using FNPT II sims, built in a "737-style" flightdeck, with much of the "real 737" there, but solely for MCC (and JOC?) purposes. It is not a Level C/D 737 sim for TR purposes by any means imaginable, and is not certified to a level to my knowledge per CAA records.

FTE have a real sim - Hawker 800, certified to Spanish CAA L2B.

You have to think though - what is the purpose of the sim, is the Oxford one going to give you a real "glass cockpit" exposure being only FNPT II etc, and indeed, do you really need that for what you are using it for?

One is bulit for purpose (Ox), while the other might be more similar to one used for sim check (FTE). Are you going to get any useful experience though in the real one at FTE - possibly not.

A CRJ sim (presumably as few people are flying CRJs at the moment, so they are cheap and available) would probably be more real.

Frankly, you could do MCC in something cheap and nasty if you wanted - they are just tempting you with bells and whistles!

[cfwake]

cheers for clearing that one up lucifer!

[Lucifer]

You might want to refresh - I've been editing!

[cfwake]

aha! just to clarify, as i know what you're saying but i'm not sure on your conclusion (!), that for the purpose that i'll be using it (MCC, JOC) it doesn't make a huge difference which one i use?!

[scroggs]

there is a line between advertising and false information.

There is, and some schools' marketing spiel is damn close to crossing that line.
but who am i to say that i haven't started my course yet even!!!
Exactly. :rolleyes:

Scroggs, however, i would like to consder your points. you mentioned that some airline pilots didn't go to public school. well some do and indeed some of us trainees did so watch your comments on that issue as it could appear insulting and ill-informed.

Come on, little fishy - just a little further...

Perhaps you should consider that you are suggesting that those pilots who go down an integrated route are foolish for doing so.
Now we're beginning to talk turkey! Go back and read what you've written. Are Oxford paying you? Last time I looked, it cost about £80k for the full deal at Oxford. By the sound of it, you have absolutely no concept of how much money and work that represents to an average person. Perhaps someone else is financing your training, in which case the cost is not an issue, but, on your financier's behalf, you should be ensuring you get value for money and should be able to look beyond the marketing flannel. Unfortunately for you, it would seem that they have you hook, line and sinker, and if that BA job (with its crap pension) doesn't come your way, perhaps OAT PR might employ you?

Really, you need to be a little less credulous and a little more discerning - not to say sceptical. Your posts suggest that in fact you have done very little research except to find information that justifies your pre-judgement. I have nothing against Oxford - they are a very good school - but I find the unfiltered sales blurb that is regurgitated by those who have yet to start training somewhat unpalateable.

Scroggs

[cfwake]

thank you scroggs.

consider me told off! I'll certainly go away and rethink my plans and stance because actually you know, i really hadn't even begun to consider the 80 grand loan that i'm having to scrape together to fund my flying training! i hadn't thought that i'm going to be paying it back for over 5 years assuming i get a job, and i certainly hadn't considered, like pretty much every other student that undertakes this major financial commitment, the very very severe effects of not finding employment within, say, six months such as having to declare bankruptcy and all of the future restrictions that that would place upon me in terms of buying property and securing all other finances, especially as i work in the finance industry at the moment and am confronted daily with people who are about to get thrown of of their homes!

i also had COMPLETELY forgotten to consider any other airline than the glittering prospect of flying for BA - it's certainly the only airline that i have thought of flying for! in fact, aren't all OAT graduates guaranteed that nice lovely 747 cockpit and wonderful uniform with the accolade of "Trained by OAT"???

ah well, time to go away and rethink!!! silly me! i'll have to go away and start again eh! thanks for talking turkey and bringing me, a 'little fishy', a lot closer to reality!!!

the part of your post which so delicately describes my carefully weighted argument about the sims? did you notice that i said "while it may not be worth almost twelve thousand more" in there? or did you read it as 'Oxford Aviation School's Frasca II 737-400 three-axis flight simulators are some of the most advanced in the world and have been carefully chosen with the needs of the student in mind to provide a more realistic and enjoyable training experience.' the latter certainly sounds more like what you read!

please enlighten us all, were you a modular pilot scroggs? and please just assure me that you did actually take to heart what i said about the private schools part of your post, because you stayed pretty quiet on that one!

in your reply to this post, if you wish to, please reiterate some of the "unfiltered sales blurb that is regurgitated by those who have yet to start training". include those parts which credit OAT with things that are untrue and biased towards OAT only and no other flying school?

many thanks scroggs

[davey147]

I think scroggs came from the RAF, I dont know but I guess their training is a bit more like intergrated.

The fact is you can get the same licences that you pay OAT £80,000. For less than £20,000 if you pick the right schools and go the modular route. No wonder people have reasons to have a negative view of OAT.

I personally havent decided whether to do integrated or modular, but at the end of the day, virtually anybody can get on the OAT course as HSBC loan you the money, so its nothing special.

[scroggs]

Chris,

your original post was nothing if not a statement that the only schools worth considering are OAT and FTE. In your second post, you state that: I have spoken to many, many people in the industry, pilots as well as educational and recruitment staff and i would argue that their [OAT's] boasts are justifiedThat, together with the tenor of your posts, suggested to me that you have been entirely convinced by the sales claims of these schools - and, in particular, OAT - that they have some kind of massive advantage over any other route.

In fact, had your research been somewhat more thorough, you would have discovered that the CTC Wings (modular) route statistically gives by far the best chance of airline employment for its students, and it costs rather less than OAT. Not only that, but you showed a willingness to be seduced by the Oxford halo that we have seen many, many, many times before here. Unfortunately, we have also seen many, many stories that give a somewhat different picture. You might care to look a few of them up. If they give you cause to look a little more carefully into your choices, then Pprune has done its job.

I have no problem with anyone who makes a careful study of all the options open to them and chooses an Oxford course in full knowledge of the reservations expressed by some who have been there, and with a healthy scepticism for OAT's occasionally creative attitude to claiming a hand in ex-students' subsequent employment. There are many good things about the school, but it is far from being head and shoulders above everyone else. The one area where it appears to have excelled is in its depiction of itself as the first choice of most airlines, and in convincing wannabes that OAT on the CV actually means anything.

As for your sensitivity about private schooling, beware of who you accuse of being ill-informed. As I said - far from ignoring you - come on, little fishy, the net is closing...!;)

Me a modular student? No, I'm afraid you're again well out. There's no secret about my history - it's covered briefly on my Profile, and in more detail in easily-found threads in this forum. Again, research is key - as I'm sure your financial coaches have been trying to convince you since you started in that field.

Scroggs

[MIKECR]

"80 grand loan that i'm having to scrape together to fund my flying training! i hadn't thought that i'm going to be paying it back for over 5 years assuming i get a job"

Is 80k over 5 years for real!!?? Including interest, I make that roughly £1500 a month!! Is this seriously the deal that HSBC are offering?? I'd be needing at least 50k, probably nearer 60k a year to even remotely stand a chance of paying that back, let alone put food on the table!

[Dr Eckener]

i really hadn't even begun to consider the 80 grand loan that i'm having to scrape together to fund my flying training! i hadn't thought that i'm going to be paying it back for over 5 years assuming i get a job, and i certainly hadn't considered, like pretty much every other student that undertakes this major financial commitment, the very very severe effects of not finding employment within, say, six months such as having to declare bankruptcy and all of the future restrictions that that would place upon me in terms of buying property and securing all other finances
Why do it then? There are other ways of getting there without such a massive debt burden. Will not be as quick though, so probably does not appeal to the 'now generation'.

By the way, it will have to be a very good job to pay off 80k+interest in 5 years!

especially as i work in the finance industry
I'm confused - you were a 'pupil' yesterday!!

[AlphaMale]

Chris take to be told.

Scroggs has a lot more experience in aviation than you and has moderated/corrected/advised many people on schools/courses. You asked for advise and he's cut the long story short for you.

Employers don't really care much for the name on your CV, They will look at time on your log book with more detail. I will be going modular route thanks to many many hours of researching on here and google and the advise from the people here. That is not to say modular is the better option for everybody - but it'll suit my needs better.

I know a guy that finished Uni applied for a £50k loan with HSBC and his parents funded the rest and off he went to Jerez within 6 months of coming home he work for GB Airways and he thinks his £80k was worth it. Unfortunatly I can't take that route and will not have an £80k debt around my neck with no guarentee of a Job. I'll work my way up the ladder as a FI / Crop Sprayer / Tug or whatever else.

If you have £80k burning a hole in your pocket then good luck and I wish you all the best (even though I am jealous). I am not much older than you and I don't have a quarter of that £80k toward my training yet. :(

Andrew

[MIKECR]

I just cant believe this 80k figure, lets put things in perspective here!
My route(Modular):-
1.PPL cost - £3000
2.Hour build - cost me pretty much diddly squat thanks to getting tuggy position with local gliding club. Paid for the odd hour's rental here and there from a couple of places but not much more than £2000 tops.
3.ATPL's + exam fee's - £3500
4. I start my ME/IR followed by CPL in 2 weeks time. Im budgeting for 20k, including test fee's etc and might even manage to squeeze the MCC out of it aswell(I could probably do it cheaper than the 20k if I went overseas)
I make that a gand total of around £28500!!
I could probably treat myself to 2 or 3 of the finest all singing all dancing Boeing and Airbus type ratings and STILL not have spent 80k!!

[rogueflyer01]

Thx Mikecr!

Add 7k for the ctc atp and wallaahh... near enough 40k, 50% cheaper than oat...25k less than FTE...

Cfwake i was like you in thinking that integrated was bling bling but after advice from people such as scroggs, pilot pete, mikecr etc and 8 years (after leaving uni) of slaving away in 2 jobs saving up the money for a integrated course i am not sure i wanna throw it all away without a gurantee of a job so if the flybe maps scheme does not work out for me i am going modular..no more thinking about it...

Best of luck with whatever you decide :ok:

[cfwake]

hi everyone!

i admit, yeah 80 grand in 5 years is a hell of a lot of money, i did mean over 5 years as in more than, but more like 7 years, reading back now i realise that it sounded exactly like 80 grand in 60 months, don't know why i said that!:ugh:

scroggs, i apologise if i came over sounding like i had been completely taken in by OAT - i am pretty impressed, but i am still keeping a very open mind and i have been careful not to be taken in, even if it may have sounded like it! i have, just for reason of completeness, considered the CTC wings scheme, and i am fully aware that it is probably the best school going (again i may be wrong about that), but heading over to new zealand for such an extended period of time (9 months) is not something that i am willing to undertake for my circumstances.

i also realise that OAT is no better than a lot of other flying schools, in fact much of the advice that i have had is that FTE has it beaten for training quality, hence why i'm heading over there in january to do the tests! i have seen your profile and i realise how much flying experience you had, but the replies that you gave seemed to be rather blunt and unhelpful - again i'll state that while i do think OAT graduates have a very good chance of being employed, perhaps i didn't make clear that i in no way think that they have a better chance than any other graduate, to think that OAT grads are more employable than any other would be foolish, which i suppose you could take as an argument against my needing 80 grand to go there!!! i also fully understand that the piece of paper at the end is the same as that that you can get from a modular route, it just costs a lot more, again it is something that i have realised - i realise that the most similar financial commitment that i will undertake in future will be a mortgage.

i have considered other schools, however now that i'm choosing which to go to, two of the schools that i want to go to are OAT or FTE, be that sensible or unwise (please no replies to that part as i know the opinions of many people will be the latter), but it is my choice, and again i apologise if that sounds ignorant, i assure you it isn't intended to be. everyone has to choose at some point and while there are bad sides to both schools, there are to any other school and i'm sure everyone has good and bad experiences.

DE - my profile has not been changed for a very long time hence seeing as i have been on a bit in the last few weeks i got round to updating it finally! i finished school 4 years ago!

AM - i don't think anyone has 80k burning any holes apart from a few very lucky people, but i have to say that it is very clear that there are two sides to the debate over integrated and the extra costs are either seen as ridiculous and not worth a penny,or as a worthwhile cost - there isn't going to be much give from either side on that one and i think it's very difficult to change one's opinion, yours and mine. the GBA pilot sounds to be in the same camp as myself.

so hopefully, if i can get back to my original question, with apologies to scroggs for taking exception to his (perhaps percieved) tone of his original reply, and moving away from the modular vs integrated route argument, which is not an argument that i wanted to think about in this post, can someone please tell me:

"is the technical and tutoring advantage of Oxford outweighed by just how good Jerez is? Is Jerez so much better than any other flying school or is the real-world difference minimal? I get the impression that any line looking for pilots tends to see Oxford and Jerez at a similar if not identical level."

that is NOT to say the OAT and FTE are at a level above all other flying schools around!!!! again, i am not wanting replied to the effect of 'why the hell go there then', which while valid for some people, is not of much use when i want to know if FTE has a clear advantage over OAT, leaving aside the financial aspect, which i wouldlike to assure everyone, something that i have considered very carefully. for me, i will be doing an integrated course and as i have already said, people fall into two very clearly defined camps and i am quite clearly in one. many of you guys are in another. i don't think there's much point in arguing because neither of us are going to budge! there are one or two other options that i am looking at, but for this argument all i was interested in was OAt or FTE!

scroggs, once again apologies if i came over ignorant and biased, i try not to be, but your original reply seemed to be rather less helpful to my question than i had hoped and the second reply seemed to be suggesting that i am naive and poorly informed. while i don't have anything like the experience that you have, i would argue very strongly (clearly!) against being accused of it.

[cfwake]

so, my question, to put it more clearly:

which, FTE or OAT (speaking ideally to people who have experience of both) seems to have it more licked, FTE claim that their grads have an average 8% higher marks than other schools - is this true? Are OAT facilities better and (cost aside for this time) if they are, are they going to be of any benefit to me over FTE's teaching? is FTE teaching better than OAT's?

i'll state, to make it perfectly clear, that ultimately if it is a1 facilities or a1 teaching, i'd prefer to go for teaching but obviosuly until i'm taught, i will not know whose seems to be successful for more people.

thank you guys

[Callsign Kilo]

One thing that I will say about either school Chris, I believe that when you go integrated, you are expected to sit all 14 of your ATPL ground exams in a 6month period. Now that, by anyones book, is a hard old slogg. I have my last lot of exams next week and I started a full time course in mid-April. To put it bluntly, the course was no bed of rosses - the majority of the notes were crap, some tutors were not the greatest - but heh, I'm on the final stage and fingers crossed, next Thursday, it will all be a distant memory! Now, I don't know how either FTE or OAT's groundschool fairs and I don't really know how they do it, but the idea of doing a fantastic deal of 'learning' over 6 months may be a misconception. You might do a great deal of 'learning to recognise what the answer is!' That said, people get through and get good pass rates - however they probably do it the same way as the majority - you will learn to love and respect the online question bank!

[taxitoalpha]

FTE or OAT (speaking ideally to people who have experience of both)

Not sure too many people will have experience of both, one integrated course is expensive enough let alone two!
Perhaps it will be a lifestyle choice for you as you mentioned before that 9 months in NZ was too long in any circumstance, have you considered that 15 months in southern Spain may also be a problem?

[cfwake]

thanks CK! i thought 6 months would be pretty hard going which is why i like the thought of doing it all in one go with no flying to dilute it, i tend to find that for myself, a long, hard slog with no distractions tends to work better! but interested to know, ad this may be lazy on my part for not looking, which notes did you use?

[cfwake]

TTA, oh yes!!!! but it ain't a day's long flight to get there! i know the problem with asking this question but am hoping that someone'll have enough useful experience of either school, be they students or other!

[MIKECR]

Thx Mikecr!

Add 7k for the ctc atp and wallaahh... near enough 40k, 50% cheaper than oat...25k less than FTE...

Cfwake i was like you in thinking that integrated was bling bling but after advice from people such as scroggs, pilot pete, mikecr etc and 8 years (after leaving uni) of slaving away in 2 jobs saving up the money for a integrated course i am not sure i wanna throw it all away without a gurantee of a job so if the flybe maps scheme does not work out for me i am going modular..no more thinking about it...

Best of luck with whatever you decide :ok:

Rogueflyer01 - Sorry but I aint paying for schemes! I've spent enough money already in my opinion. A bonded TR scheme then "yes" but my aim however is not to fly 73's, 320's or whatever, I want to fly TP's, certainly for the first few years. Im aware that the CTC scheme is quite a good one but I just refuse to fork out any more money at the moment. I think im proably steering the thread away a little bit here but the fact of th matter is, people are just paying out obscene amounts of money when it can be clearly seen that it can be done for literally a third of the price! That OAT pilot mag chap, I forget his name now, spent somewhere in the region of £125k by the time he'd got his 1st job! These training providers are laughing all the bloody way to the bank! m sorry but I wouldnt be able to sleep at night knowing the amount of debt I had.

[Callsign Kilo]

Chirs, I'd rather not say about the notes on a public forum. The good thing for you is that the chance of you getting your hands on them are very slim - they are not for sale on the open market as they are part of a course.

I did however use some Oxford Texts and their Met CDROM, and found them to be excellent. I could also recommend Campbell & Bagshaw's 'Human Performance and Limitations in Aviation' as a reference text for HPL.

[cfwake]

fair enough thanks for the info, i've been using AC Kermode's "Mechanics of Flight" for my introduction to it all asi want to be pretty read up when i start, and while i'm finding it pretty hard going at times, it's a very good book - trying to get my hands on flying without formulae at the mo!!!

[planeshipcar]

cfwake,

You seem like an intelligent/ articulate guy (or girl) who just needs to take a more closer look at the market around. There are quite a few other options a part from the Oxford integrated route. It took me along while to get an understanding for the exact course content of all modules and exams to get the licences and then employment. This includes almost every flight school, every palce where you can get a type rating, all the prices, who's hiring, what qualification etc, basic syllabi and all this as every ppruner knows is ever changing.

What you will find in the process is a particular route will really appeal to you and others will make you wonder how the hell others can follow their own path.

I think there is something about Oxford where most wannabees are first attracted. There is certainly a sense of security in their marketing, however real that sense of security is left for conclusion for those who have gone right through the school and their bank accounts. All in all, you will find lot's of guys from Oxford who are really pleased and have the BA job and alike and then you'll also find some who have had to fork out for the Ryanair route or another expensive scheme where they could have spent a hell of a lot less and done it on a modular course.

As for Scroggs having a go at integrated courses and public school. I have to becareful because when you meet people you only meet a sample of a course etc, but he has a point - FROM MY PERSPECTIVE - I get the impression that lots have gone to very good schools and I imagine doesn't do them any harm in getting there job with the right airs and graces. Flying is (for some) and has been and 'old boys' club to an extent for some, especially at some establishments but this doesn't mean its exclcsive in anyway to anyone! There is nothing wrong with going to public school and I don't think that's what anyone is trying to suggest.
Anyway, I went to public school I couldn't give a sh*t if someone had ago don't be too sensitive.

As with this whole Jerz V Oxford. From my perspective both offer the same intensity academically and very similar formal approach. So I wold would shy from debating aircraft type etc and take into account questions like,

environment?

Will I like living in sunny spain, however away from home, what if something goes wrong?

or

The interest on the BBA bank is so much metter than HSBC.

Do more Oxford/ Jerez graduates end up paying for their type rating?

I think you'll find that no one can tell you one is better than the other. It's just up to your sutiablity and gutt.

hope this helps and good luck to everyone especially,

cfwake - you'll get there!

cheers

[planeshipcar]

cfwake,

You seem like an intelligent/ articulate guy (or girl) who just needs to take a more closer look at the market around. There are quite a few other options a part from the Oxford integrated route. It took me along while to get an understanding for the exact course content of all modules and exams to get the licences and then employment. This includes almost every flight school, every palce where you can get a type rating, all the prices, who's hiring, what qualification etc, basic syllabi and all this as every ppruner knows is ever changing.

What you will find in the process is a particular route will really appeal to you and others will make you wonder how the hell others can follow their own path.

I think there is something about Oxford where most wannabees are first attracted. There is certainly a sense of security in their marketing, however real that sense of security is left for conclusion for those who have gone right through the school and their bank accounts. All in all, you will find lot's of guys from Oxford who are really pleased and have the BA job and alike and then you'll also find some who have had to fork out for the Ryanair route or another expensive scheme where they could have spent a hell of a lot less and done it on a modular course.

As for Scroggs having a go at integrated courses and public school. I have to becareful because when you meet people you only meet a sample of a course etc, but he has a point - FROM MY PERSPECTIVE - I get the impression that lots have gone to very good schools and I imagine doesn't do them any harm in getting there job with the right airs and graces. Flying is (for some) and has been and 'old boys' club to an extent for some, especially at some establishments but this doesn't mean its exclcsive in anyway to anyone! There is nothing wrong with going to public school and I don't think that's what anyone is trying to suggest.
Anyway, I went to public school I couldn't give a sh*t if someone had ago don't be too sensitive.

As with this whole Jerz V Oxford. From my perspective both offer the same intensity academically and very similar formal approach. So I wold would shy from debating aircraft type etc and take into account questions like,

environment?

Will I like living in sunny spain, however away from home, what if something goes wrong?

or

The interest on the BBA bank is so much metter than HSBC.

Do more Oxford/ Jerez graduates end up paying for their type rating?

I think you'll find that no one can tell you one is better than the other. It's just up to your sutiablity and gutt.

hope this helps and good luck to everyone especially,

cfwake - you'll get there!

cheers

[cfwake]

cheers PSC! this BA debate does get me because i have to admit honestly that i haven't got the impression that it comes ahead of any other job - although i haven't visited OAT on an actual open day, just ad-hoc off the cuff trips i arranged personally.

the tr argument for modular is attractive, and i must admit that 25 grand on top of my APP or FTE integ (or any other) course is a sting in the tail, but if my choice is to start flying sooner and finish repaying what i owe (which would admittedly be a lot more) at about the same age as i would if i have saved, and had less to repay later in life, then i would choose to pay more and fly sooner, probably not the ideal thing to do i'll admit, but i am very lucky to be in a position where i can afford to take that option and i apprectiate that stroke of luck, once again i'll emphasise that in no way is the figure i'll be spending, like many hundreds of others, is certainly not a small amount...

[MIKECR]

Chris,

You mention that the 25K on top of the APP or FTE courses, is a "sting in the tail". On top of the 80K for the course(assuming you go on the course), plus interest, im curious as to how your going to pay back over 100K, in the 7 years that you've mentioned as the probable timescale?? Looking at example payscales for new FO's with the likes of Easy etc, I cant possible see how on earth the repayments are possible. You would have to be paying around £1500 per month, on a wage that pays you only £1300 per month! Assuming your also going to need a roof over your head, put food on the table, and have some kind of life, where does the money come from?? The figures just dont fit im afraid.You tell us however that your in the finance industry, is there a magic formula or something that i've missed??

[cfwake]

80 k over 7 years

[MIKECR]

80k divided by 7 years = £11500 per year which equates to £950 per month. Thats before you've added interest and before you've included your TR!! I therefore propose the actual figure nearer to £1500 per month!

[planeshipcar]

No probs,

Just like to add - that I wouldn't be ashamed spending alot of money - if you think that is the best route, may be it is - go with what you think is best.

Sometimes, you do get what you've paid for and that can mean spending a bit more to get a better product.

Personally, I'm taking the modular route and plan to go thorugh Stapleford after my course with Bristol Ground School. I got my PPL in New Zealand, doing my hours building there and in florida, coincidentally at the airport where the hijackers of 9/11 trained! This route is from my current perspective the best route for me. However, if things had been different I may have gone down a different route. A while back I checked out the oxford and cabair integrated course open days etc and was dead keen and almost set and then my father was killed in an accident so I had to rethink everything especially financially.

Saying that I personally believe that this route I'm taking is far better for me and I'm pleased I've fallen upon these schools.

Good Luck

[cfwake]

yeah 80k over 7 years give or take. from what i have found out, pilots are on a sliding scale of pay. therefore the loan repayments that i make during my first year of employment wil certainly not be the same level of pay that i am on after 7 years - if i am still on the same salary, i would suggest that i should have looked for another profession, don't you agree?! in my opinion, during those seven years the salary should increase enough (and certainly from talking to pilots who have been through the process and are still going through the process of paying their loans etc back, this is the impression that i have been given) to clear my debts and maintain a decent, if not excessive, lifestyle.

i say 25k tr and for the repayment option, i used to easyjet pay explanation, which pays a lower amount if the company pays you for it (hence remove the 25k from the equation) or if it is not sponsored, higher pay to 5k per year, as i understand from the website which explains it. this may or may not be the case.

[MIKECR]

Ok Chris, let's just say you have to pay the 80k over 7 years, you will still be paying well over a grand a month. What happens if you dont get a job?? How do you repay that?? Even if you dont get a job flying, your still going to need a job of some description, undoubtedly you will need a job paying you at least 30k a year, to keep your head above water. I cant even see how on the sliding payscale's you say you've looked into that you can afford the repayments. The 1st 2 - 3 years of FO employment just dont seem to pay enough money at all.

[cfwake]

mikecr i have done plenty of research into the finance issue and as far as i am concerned, i have enough personal experiences to use that schedule realistic. if you don't think it is, then i'm glad that there is healthy debate on the subject but the point of this post is not to discuss repayment plans.

i am not going to justify my ideas on repayment any more. they are, i would contend, realistic. you would agree that they are not. we shall agree to disagree

i would, however, without reply or argument from myself, be interested as to how long it took you to repay your training costs?

[MIKECR]

Seeings you've asked - as you've probably read previously in this thread, im modular, and have been in F/T employment for the last 10 years(i turned 30 last month). I have paid all my training costs as and when i've been able to afford them. A lot of my flying hours were gained as a tuggy(nil cost to me but took a bit of pushing to get the post in the 1st place) at a local gliding club and apart from an 8k career development loan, I have no debt whatsoever to my flight training. I start my IR in 2 weeks and have offest the cost of that against the equity of my property. Similarly, if I have to pay for a TR thereafter then I still have more than sufficient equity available. I toyed with the idea when I was your age of doing the Integrated route but my parents would have disowned me if i'd tried to borrow 80 thousand squid! Admittedly, im now 30 and its taken a year or 2 longer to get towards the finish line, but I still have 30 years of flying ahead of me. Im not telling you to avoid the integrated route, im merelt trying to hammer home the fact that there are other options available. The like's of the OAT employment statistics arent actually that great, and you could save yourself literally thousands and thousands of pounds!

[cfwake]

thanks mcr, like i say i'm always interested to find out the finance aspect as it is undoubtedly one of the most important aspects of flying training - i understand the modular route but as i've discussed i'm fortunate enough to be in the situation of being able to afford to borrow that money. it is a hell of a lot of money but, wisely or unwisely, i have decided to take that financing route!

[MIKECR]

Well good luck to you my friend and I sincerely hope you are able to afford it (as you say you are), and hope you have some kind of contingency plans in place if not. My intention was not to steer the thread away, but it scares me when i start reading abut young people, like yourself, borrowing vast amounts of money to get through training. Some of these flight schools are charging absolutely obscene amounts of money for courses, and unfortunately people are suckered into paying it, under some spell bound marketing illusion theyre going to get some great job at the end of it. I suspect probably only a third or so of each course, probably only the top scorers, get the reccomendations to the airlines. I feel very sorry for the ones who are left that have no job and a mountain of debt hanging over them that could have so easily been avoided.

The best of luck to you anyway though!

[cfwake]

absolutely right, i am very grateful for your input even if we don't 'quite' see eye to eye! one good thing about app, tho, i would say is the funding schedule which gets you doing the written exams, supposedly the hardest part of the entire course, done first so the cheapest and most difficult bit is done - any mess ups there and the money spent is far less - this seems to work for the other stages as the money is taken in stages, now whether that is the case or not i don't know.

i'm also under very little illusion that when i do finish, i'm not expecting anything from anyone in the way of recommendations - any i do get will be a huge bonus but i certainly have no intention of sitting back and waiting for the job offers to roll in through any hired help, as it could be seen!

many thanks mcr sorry we seem to have got off on the wrong foot! all the best - happy landings!

[Callsign Kilo]

I wouldn't say the exams are the hardest or most difficult part, Chirs - they certainly are the most time consuming, least exciting and offer very little inspiration! One thing that helped me to get through them was by flying once or twice and month, alongside speaking to friends already in the job, or who were about to complete their training, type ratings etc. That gave me the motivation to get back into the books!

From what friends say, they find the MEP IR the most challenging, yet at the same time the most interesting. This is closely followed by the Type Rating course, which is on a par to your ATPLs and IR rolled into one. So I'm told anyway! ;)

[cfwake]

oh thanks ck just what i needed to know!!!!!!!

:{

[Callsign Kilo]

Don't shoot the messenger, ask anyone! I spoke to a Ryanair skipper recently and he said the thought of having to do any of the exams again left him feeling physically sick! They aren't fun, but everyone with the desire to to this gets through them!

[MIKECR]

Don't shoot the messenger, ask anyone! I spoke to a Ryanair skipper recently and he said the thought of having to do any of the exams again left him feeling physically sick! They aren't fun, but everyone with the desire to to this gets through them!


J,

Including 'Performance'?? No thanks to a certain Harold Bishop tho!

[cfwake]

haha! oh well good to know it's all fun and games :}

[dartagnan]

whatever the school you choose, a 200 hours pilot is still a 200 hours pilot on light planes.

I would look in his experience and they way he acts and flies and not the school's name.

Fly a plane is much more than just paying £80k to an unscrupulous manager who makes you believe you are somebody if you wear a little badge and a nice uniform.
"there are no good pilots, only old pilots"

personally I prefer to be independent and be debt free.loans are not for me!

Good luck to all of you!:ok:and sleep well!because I do, I have no debt!

[Dr Eckener]

FTE claim that their grads have an average 8% higher marks than other schools - is this true?
Considering they run a selection process and charge a lot more than other outfits, this is hardly outstanding. I understand from a very good source that Aerofan have the best results in Europe for initial IR.
in my opinion, during those seven years the salary should increase enough (and certainly from talking to pilots who have been through the process and are still going through the process of paying their loans etc back, this is the impression that i have been given) to clear my debts and maintain a decent, if not excessive, lifestyle.

With respect, I think you will discover life has a habit of getting ever more expensive as time moves on.

[rogueflyer01]

Lol shouldn't post when tired...

Post deleted...

[MIKECR]

lol m8 i don't believe you understood my post. The previous poster was stating that if you go modular you can spend 30k and get those valuable licenses and i was simply stating that add 7k you can swim in ctc's hold pool.

Reading your other posts it's quite clear that you may not be fully aware of the other routes available to you...research! :eek:

Sorry mate, not sure what your saying here, it was actually ME who was the previous poster(who stated you can get your CPL/IR/MCC for less than 30k). I believe you said 'x' number of posts ago, in reply to me, that you would have to bargain for another 7k or whatever for the likes of ctc etc. I believe I replied to the effect that "yes" I thought ctc was a good scheme but I wouldnt be paying for one. Not sure what you mean by I havent researched enough?? :confused:

[Callsign Kilo]

Without a doubt, the CTC Wings scheme is probably the most coveted program there is in aviation training today. I know that there are countless threads on the topic and I am quite aware of the high standards of assessment which go with it's entrance requirements, however quite a bit of time passes between applying for assessment to being plucked out of the hold pool and into a TR course is there not? Please don't think that this is a criticism of the scheme in any way, we all have to accept that things will never happen immediately in this game! However to some who have a repayment plan, they may not see it as being option unfortunately.

PS, I know they could go out and seek alternative employment or become an instructor while waiting etc

[Grass strip basher]

I did a lot of work looking at the financing side and trying to justify £80-100k of debt + lost earnings for 2 years + interest to be paid on debt to go integrated so I spoke to a load of current pilots to get their view (my old man was with BA etc).. .most of them fell off there seats and had to pick their jaws up off the floor when told how much integrated training cost. Note these weren't just "old hands" who were lucky enough to have BA pick up the tab for their training (like my old man and his mates) but also my peers some of which self funded 8-9 years ago (most now at Cathy, BA or Lo-cos). If I had a pound everytime one of them said "madness" I would have had enough cash to go to Oxford several times over!

The other thing that struck me is not just to base your decision on "can I pay off the debt" without considering other issues likely to be increasingly prominant in your thinking over the next 10 years.... to get on the housing ladder today you will have to save at least £15-20k.... plus you also will have to start thinking about paying into a pension asap unless you believe the 10k most company schemes will give you to retire on is enough to support your lifestyle.

I think MikeCR has many many point that I wholeheartedly agree with. Also ask yourself why are 90% of the people that go through Oxford in the 18-25 year age bracket when those that are most likely to be able to afford the cost are 25-35 bracket with 5-10 years of work behind them?? Perhaps 5-10 years of working for a living gives you a better appreciation of just how much debt £80-100k is and what a weight around your neck it can be.

Look at it this way....
80k with an interest rate of 6.5% paid back over 10 years means your total repayments will be £105-110k.... that is the cash cost of your training not £80k... that is also out of post-tax earnings (your debt payments are not tax-deductible) so gross it up for tax you are looking at £150k worth of gross salary going to repay your debt over the 10 years... so on average 15k a year.... add 20k for a type rating and these numbers go to £135k and £190k respectively.... 19k of your gross salary a year.... frightening isn't it? Don't forget to factor in that the bank is not lending you the money for free so include the cost of the interest you will pay on your loan into the cost of the course.... I am amazed at how many people don't include the cost of interest paid on debt when calculating the cost of their training.

I'm not knocking Oxford its an excellent course and even the modular route isn't "cheap" but I am not surprised so many of the pilots I have spoken to think the costs involved for a newbie today are terrifying.

Oh well thats my 2 pennies worth.... having visited Oxford I decided to stay in work full time and go modular.... hey I may be wrong but heck at least i have no debt, 150-200 hrs in thelog book and most of the exams out of the way.... I sleep easy at night and my bank manager doesn't even know who I am :O

Once I get the little blue book next year I may even be lucky enough to get onto the CTC ATP scheme which strikes me as one of the most cost effective way into the airlines these days

[boogie-nicey]

Well said Grass Strip Basher. The bigger issue is sometimes overlooked, such as future implications of today's financial shortcomings. OATS is good but when you have to pay for it yourself you need to think twice about justifying your actions. After all if OATS graduates were they only ones who got jobs then the other schools would be out on the ear hole in an instance.

You may indeed get the job upon or near graduation but is that really worth the extra cost in fact you could save bucket loads of money and pick up a job a little later, perhaps? We need to think about justifying the money coming from our pockets rather than FTOs justifying it for us. Fine that's what they say it costs, but what about your own personal affordability? Even if you attend the APP at OATs and get a job straight off the bat you still have a mountain of cash to payback with all the continuing constraints of life that will run parallel to that. For example relationship breakdown, loss of licence (it's doesn't just happen to the other guy), redundancy, fate .... that God forbid you fall ill.

It's somewhat similiar to those people who risk those borderline illegal 7 times mortgage deals just to get onto the property ladder and then run at their personal limit just to keep their head above the water. Though at the same time others avoid that fiasco and buy something smaller or elsewhere.

I think that OATs is a clever company that loves to impose itself upon the industry, tha's fine but we shouldn't be so easily suckered into their promises.
Just an ounce of common sense that's all.

[Callsign Kilo]

As far as topics go, this entire thread, in my opinion, is one that everyone who is considering self funding their training should read! Some very good stuff has been said here by some very sensible people.

With personal experience in this area, it is immediately evident from a visit to places such as OAT, that they have devoted a lot of their revenue into their sales and marketing strategy. They do have some degree of reputation to support their claims, and while they will never actually state that their advertised route guarantees a job, they leave a lot of people believing that it actually does! Any good marketing man or woman will tell you, a successful business is not down to telling people what you can or will do; it's having people actually believe that you are able to do it and will do it! If you effectively sell someone the dream, the person will pull out all the stops to buy it! There are no longer any options or alternatives out there and some how money no longer becomes a problem. In my opinion places like Oxford know this, and rely upon it! The experience of the sales & marketing department really justifies the price - and thats not being cynical, that's business!

[geraldn]

At the end of the day ,it is YOU that the airline is going to employ...not Oxford or Jerez. IMHO the only issue that concerned me when i chose my FTO was quality and cost of training although i must admit that i was slightly seduced by Oxford's marketing Facade.
Having said that oxford's training was top notch.
:ok:

[rogueflyer01]

sry mikecr was confused.........

[MIKECR]

No worries!

[howflytrg]

OAT ----Halls stupidly expensive. So find rental property and pay for own meals and beer and get up early to get into OAT each morning blah blah blah in the rain.

FTE ----- all accomodation on site and paid for along with 3 squares a day. Only money required is for beer which at happy hour works out at 40p a pint. Or 1.50 Euro the rest of the time mmmmmmmmmmm. Oh and buying hi-lighters because you forgot to bring any with you.

Other wise the choice is totally upto personal preference.

C'est fin.

[gernie]

Oxford
Living expenses, travel, and heaven forbid should you need them; exam and test resit fees, extra lessons, and finally, the pres de resistance, the £20,000 for the TYPE RATING that you will probably have to shell out for!!

Some others told me to forget budgeting for £60,000 - it would take £80,000+; especially if you were living away from home.

Could you please explain with more detail, what you mean about paying 20,000 pounds more for the TYPE RATING? That is not included in the price as integrated course is?

First of all I have to say that I´m Spanish, and even EFT is "closer" to my home, I´m seriously looking to roll into OAT. For sure first I need to do the skills assesments. But I was wondering if someone who had been there doing his training could say how much more or less he spent during all the course. (course, living expenses, whatever normal expense)
I was expecting 1000pounds per month (18months), cos living expenses are almost 600pounds. So it will be 62000pounds plus + 18000pounds = 80000pounds for all the program? Or this is gonna be shorter?

Thank you!

[AlphaMale]

Could you please explain with more detail, what you mean about paying 20,000 pounds more for the TYPE RATING? That is not included in the price as integrated course is?

First of all I have to say that I´m Spanish, and even EFT is "closer" to my home, I´m seriously looking to roll into OAT.

Thank you!

You don't get a TR with an Integrated course, you get a fATPL :ugh: ... If you want a TR with line training you'll need to find £20k ot get with an airline that will give you a bond (they will pay the costs and you'll have the repayments deducted from your earnings over 5 years).

You must really live on the West Coast of Spain if EFT is closer you than OAT :confused: ... I know Florida is a few thousand miles west from where I am ;)

Good luck no matter what you choose.

Andrew

[gernie]

Yes! You are right! I ment FTE (Flight Training Europe) in Jerez, sorry!! :ugh:It´s all because I´ve been looking a lot of time to EFT, so that made the confusion!

So doesn´t matter where I do my training? I will need to pay 20k for the TYPE RATING? So I hope in the future the airline will pay it for me, when hiring me jajaj! If not this is gonna be as expensiver career as I thought!!!! Cos 80,000 pounds for the whole training and then another 20,000 for the TR, is too much money for me! MY GOD NEVER THOUGHT, THIS COULD BE SO EXPENSIVE!!

[AlphaMale]

Yes! You are right! I ment FTE (Flight Training Europe) in Jerez, sorry!!

So doesn´t matter where I do my training? I will need to pay 20k for the TYPE RATING? Cos 80,000 pounds for the whole training and then another 20,000 for the TR, is too much money for me! MY GOD NEVER THOUGHT, THIS COULD BE SO EXPENSIVE!!

Common mistake that I couldn't resist making fun of :O

But yes, after you complete the training fATPL (ATPL exams and CPL/IR/MCC) which is what OAT / CabAir / FTE will offer, you will be looking at the other threads of people on here who have also done the course and can't get a job without a TR. So your then in a position where do you spend £20k on a A320 / 737 TR + Line Training and up your chances of a pilot job? £100,000 spent on training and no real guarentee of a job :{ .

Going modular will save you money but then if you look at threads on Modular v Integrated (that's another story) you might save yourself money but as the rumours go might have even less chance of getting a job against a person who did the 'Integrated course'. I don't have £100,000 so I have no choice :rolleyes: .

Good luck - plenty of Airlines will offer bonds so try and keep your head up.

Andrew