What are the job prospects for new CPLs? (MERGED) [Archive]

mongoose237

1st Feb 2006, 22:40

Hangar ratting is not really a viable option into the European industry like it is in Australia; the set ups are fundamentally different. In the UK the majority of flying falls into one of two categories: teaching and charter work. The charter work itself is largely conducted on twin-engined helicopters owing to the congestion of the UK combined with JAR regulations, or at the very least in single turbines / R44's. There is very little aerial work in light pistons to cut your teeth on, and "joy flights" frequently go under the guise of a trial lesson to negate the need for an AOC, but therefore require an instructor's rating.

As for instructing, experience is invaluable. But being able to teach, convey information in a dynamic and enjoyable way so they will retain that information, is an artform all of its own. Hours of longline and ag spraying will make you a fine pilot, but that doesn't necessarily mean pilots without those particular skills will be unable to teach the basics of flying. There is a lot to be said for enthusiasm in the learning environment, which new instructors are generally full of.

A fresh JAR instructor will have around 300 hours, along with a very thorough instructor's course under their belt. They will be more than competent to teach the fundamentals of flight to PPL level, along with the endless stream of trial lessons! This is the bread-and-butter of flying schools. The restriction imposed on them will ensure that they are adequately supervised. Later on, they may then progress onto teaching at CPL level.

Low flying is not in the UK PPL syllabus, nor external load, not mountain flying. What is required is the ability to navigate accurately, fly safely, understand the changeable British weather and generally deal with ATC / congested airspace. All of which a well-trained instructor without other industry experience should be able to cope with. Well thats the theory ;)

funfinn2000

1st Feb 2006, 23:52

Birdaman , it's too expensive back in the UK . so do what i did i came over to build flight time in USA , it's less than half the price ya pay back home . you could almost rent a R44 in
USA for cheaper than a R22 in UK .

Simon853

2nd Feb 2006, 08:36

I can't help thinking that suggestions of hangar-ratting isn't much different from the guy asking for low-paid work in the first place. i.e. Is he not devaluing his skill and (to some degree) that of established pilots by offering to make the tea and scrub the helis?

However, and forgive me, why would a new pilot be expected to demand to earn as much as a old jock? In many other industries, high pay comes with experience. Graduate engineers often get paid pittance (and often deserve it mind) after 4 years study. If newbie IT professionals started demanding £40k jobs just to keep the older guys happy they'd never work. (But then I guess I've never seen a network-monkey offer to work for free.)

Sorry if that upsets anyone, I'm not trying to nick anyone's job, (for a while yet anyhow!), just trying to make sense of the opinions.

Si

jemax

2nd Feb 2006, 08:51

This working in the states thing is really a load of old tosh, unless you want a nice hol, bit of fun, probably single, want work in that arena of operations and have a chance of getting the appropriate visa.

Factor in accomodation and get yourself properly set up in the UK for vat and income tax and there is very little difference.

For info I passed my FI rating early Dec and started work 2 weeks later with and excellent employer, FI rating is a pretty good route at the moment if you can get yourself there.

Do get out there and talk to lots of people in the UK if thats where you want to work....and there are always deals to be done.

Toohey29

2nd Feb 2006, 09:01

Jemax

First congrats on your job - well done:ok: :ok:

am in the process of learning and wondered where you trained and how much the total bill was to date ?

was your new job working at the school you had just left?

congrat again

T

jemax

2nd Feb 2006, 09:46

I trained with a number of different people, I wanted to get experience of how they really operated.

So PPL and CPL was with same person, R44 with someone else and finally I picked the FI training with a third group because it was with the outfit I wanted to work with, I had a long serious discussion with the owner before I committed and now I work there. I also did odd hours of instruction when I was out and about to get a different perspective.

I also Self fly Hired with a few different companies, because again this gives you a good understanding of how they really operate. Well worth 3 or 4 check rides and you have to do the hours anyway.

They all had strengths and weaknesses, so it's really a matter of what works for you. Aircraft availability, location, professionalism were v important. I have to say the price they charge was about the last thing on my list of considerations not because I am wealthy but because other considerations were much more important than £10-£20 difference per hour.

I will happily discuss this further by PM, but I don't want to invite a debate the relative merits of different training organisations. But I am very happy with my decision. .

Ref cost it's difficult to say. I was properly set up financially so an accountant advise ref VAT, income tax and even now Child Tax Credit which I was entitled to. I was lucky and got hooked up with an owner who gave me about 50 hours flying him in his R44.

I had planned it to the pound before hand, but the plan changed, but about £60k plus loss of income would do it. I did set up some other flexible work to help with income.

Hope this helps

i4iq

2nd Feb 2006, 10:00

That's funny jemax - when I do the maths, the difference is huge. Cost of living is far lower in the US, as is training. There really is no competition on price or opportunities after training. Sounds to me like you've fared well compared to others. The odds are firmly on the side of the US route. But congratulations on being resourceful and getting on with it!

jemax

2nd Feb 2006, 10:11

I guess I was trying to say do what suits you, if you want to go to the States do so and enjoy it, I'd love to. But don't only do it because it's cheap, there are lots of other things to consider.

Also a good accountant (but that's another thread) in the UK will bring your base price in the UK down by 20-30% if you set yourself up right.

Make your choices and enjoy them.

Toohey29

2nd Feb 2006, 12:41

Ivor i take it from your post that you did not do a combined FAA/JAA course in the US?

birdaman

2nd Feb 2006, 13:40

Thanks again for the advice. Have looked into hour building at HAI and it is much cheaper than the uk.

Jordan3054

2nd Feb 2006, 14:00

And when I return to the UK I have to "start at the bottom" (even though I will have close to 1,000 hours) and sit the ATPLs and get myself known in the UK market again.

.

Hope this doesnt sound like a stupid question but

Is there a time limit from when you pass your ground exams before passing your CPL flying training?

The reason I ask is, would be possible to sit all ATPL's exams before you go to USA, then when you come back you will have much less work to do?

Thanks

mongoose237

2nd Feb 2006, 14:25

36 months from the date you passed your last ATPL theory exam to grant of a CPL(H)

So an option is to distance study whilst still working in your existing job, get the exams out the way, then make the career move. Theory providers do like you to have a PPL before starting, but I do not know if that is a requirement.

funfinn2000

2nd Feb 2006, 16:58

yes it is cheaper to hour build there but the students come first , you would be better off getting a hold of a smaller school . or if you use your head you can check out the TV/radio pilots who charge $135 per hour in a jetranger . you can go back home with as many hours as you want Turbine too .
Hai is a great school . thought me a lot , but you wo'nt get the time.

joshiii

22nd Mar 2006, 21:54

Hi there, i am 17 and am considering a career as a pilot, i have recently tried to apply for a sixth form scholarship in the RAF as a pilot but was told i was 3cm to tall (bang goes that idea) i dont know if you know of it but Oxford Aviation is based 20mins from where i live and is the best place in the UK to train to become a commercial or helicopter pilot.

The main thing i want to get out of this post is some advice, i am still not sure which path to choose yet and it would take the place of University (dont say i am stupid you dont need a degree to be a pilot nor to get onto the course) I am a slight pecimist when it comes to this because i do not know myself how easy it is going to be to get a job, lets sum it up:

Commercial jet pilot - The training is expensive £60,000, £50,000 can be obtained from a loan, the training lasts 15 months and includes 5 months in the US flying (it is cheaper for fuel and the weather is better, this it what is included in the course) i know that jobs are easy to come by for this once you have the qualification but i am hearing all of this stuff that commercial pilots are going to be phased out over the next few years and i want a garentee of at least 40 years flying.

Helicopter pilot - The training is £55,000 and lasts 13 months, i am just unsure how to go about getting a job afterwards, i really dont want to be a freelancer and want a contract.

Right those are the options at the moment and i have explained my problems, does anyone know how to go about getting a job as a helicopter pilot and what kind of companys are going to recruit? What is the situation on the whole perminant autopilot system anyway? Is it going to change?

Thanks

joshiii

30th Apr 2006, 10:47

Hello, is there anybody out there??

Heliport

30th Apr 2006, 11:07

You'll find information, opinions and advice here:

Frequently Asked Training Questions (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122944)

RJC

1st Jul 2006, 19:59

Ok, I have read the various threads on here - but have a few questions based on todays world. Most of the treads are a couple of years old now.

Lets assume I have funded a CPL(H), have around the 185 hours mark on say an R22. It is possible I could spend the money and get a rating for an R44 too. Living in East Anglia in the UK, with partner in tow.

What happens next? Would anyone employ me? Consider training me, type conversion etc to small turbine etc? If I signed up with a company for x years, would that help?

I would not be looking to work off-shore, just on shore commercial work. Charter type of stuff I guess.

What, simply, are the baselines for get any kind of paid employment & at what kind of rate?

Any pointers would be very helpfull.

HillerBee

1st Jul 2006, 20:17

No chance at all.

RJC

1st Jul 2006, 20:34

OK, I was expecting that statement as the first line - although I was hoping for a more informative answer.

I cannot believe people self fund to over 1000 hours, pay for an IR and turbine ratings etc. Either all heli pilots are ex forces, lottery winners or come from very rich families.

So, what happens after a CPL(H) in the life of a professional heli pilot, and how do you get there?

Does everyone get their CPL(H), go to 300 hours, get an intructors ticket then spend years teaching those looking at the profession - with the knowledge that they may as well not bother.

Is it the case that the industry is that bad there is no requirement for new people to train?

Whirlybird

1st Jul 2006, 20:35

Only chance is if you're very lucky and know the right people. Otherwise your best bet is to get to 250 hours and do an FI rating.

Yes, the above is what most people do. Unless their timing is right and they get taken on by the North Sea companies. They gradually build their hours, get extra ratings etc, paying for a lot of it themselves. Some get lucky, or go abroad, or something. But not many.

There are just too many low hours CPLs. What happens when you get to 185 hours and get your freshly minted CPL? Bugger all, that's what. It sounds like a lot to you, but really, 185 hours is absolutely nothing. You simply do not have the experience to do very much. And why should any employer train you, pay for ratings etc, when there are plenty of qualified pilots around?

A lot of instructors enjoy their work, and aren't that bothered about doing anything else, at least not in a hurry. A lot of people would just rather be paid to fly helicopters in any capacity than do any other job. Does it make sense? No, not to most people. Only those for whom it makes perfect sense will do it. And as you can see, there are rather a lot of those. If it doesn't make sense to you, don't do it. There are more sensible ways to earn a living.

Whirlygig

1st Jul 2006, 20:42

Either all heli pilots are ex forces,
Yup, pretty much! Or rather, the ones with 1,000s hours are! Many of the large operators were very short-sighted in their succession planning so, whilst there is a reasonable amount of work for twin-rated, IFR, 1000 hour pilots, there is a shortage of these experienced chaps. Many operators probably assumed that they would be able to recruit from ex-services without realizing that the RAF/Army/Navy were not recruiting or training so many pilots.

The other issue is the insurance requirements of many operators which may stipulate pilots to have, say at least, 500 hours for particular work.

The instructor probably is the best route unless you can afford and instrument rating and then the off-shore chaps MAY take you on as a co-pilot.

Sponsorship does not exist to all intents and purposes.

A Turbine (Jet Ranger) rating may be more useful than R44 but that will depend on any operators for whom you wish to work.

Cheers

Whirls

RJC

1st Jul 2006, 21:45

Whirlies, both the original and the multi tasking one..

Thanks for your answers. So the general feeling of doom and gloom appears real.

Having spent a good number of years working in IT (started at 18, now 37), the time has come to look at something else. The IT world is not pretty either. I have no real need to earn a packet, enough to live on really. I have funds available to take me through to a CPL(H), which would take a couple of years I guess (working at the same time too). Ironically, when leaving school I had the option to join the forces as a pilot, I went into IT instead. Always wondered if it was a bad move.

So, planning ahead a few years - perhaps an FI rating is a way to earn enough to live on and simply enjoy myself in the process. Or get a lucky break at some point in the future. Whirlybird, yes, what you say does make sense to me. Enjoying a job can easily take priority over what you paid for it.

The Heli situation seems a bit like the IT world. It is full of people who have done courses, passed exams and come away with paperwork to say they can do a job. However, get a fair number of them to actually do it and it shows a very different picture, they have no idea. The difference is a good number of people do not have to pay a thing for their training in IT, they all think it pays a fortune. Just look at the TV ads which run in the UK offering distance learning IT courses.

I enjoy helis, always have. I have had a couple of lessons from different people - to try and get an idea if I have any ability to do it (apparently, I do).

More research, spreadsheets (very scary numbers on these) and thinking about possible directions...

Thanks for the responses so far.

34'

2nd Jul 2006, 06:37

I know this may not help much but...

.. if you REALLY want to be a pilot you will, regardless of what others say. If you can't take the critisism then maybe you weren't meant to be one....on the other hand you can follow your heart and do it anyway ;) . You live ONCE , only ONCE..

Best of luck with whatever you choose.

34'

Whirlybird

2nd Jul 2006, 07:27

I have had a couple of lessons from different people - to try and get an idea if I have any ability to do it (apparently, I do).

Be very, very, VERY careful of this sort of thing. A lot of instructors and schools will say and do practically ANYTHING to get a student.

I'm sure, without even knowing you, that you do have the ability to do it. YOu see, almost anyone can fly a helicopter. The thing that varies hugely is the amount of time it will take you. Is it possible to tell that in a trial lesson? Possibly. You can tell if someone has a natural aptitude for the actual flying. But you won't know how they'll get on with navigation, or exams, or their basic attitude, or how they'll react when the going gets tough, and all these things are more important.

If you have the money, perhaps it doesn't matter. But as someone who took a long time to do everything, I rather wish I HADN'T been told in the beginning that I was amazing, a complete natural, and all the other bull**** that I lapped up, gullible idiot that I was.

I recently heard from someone who was advised to do a f/w PPL first, so that, apparently, she'd learn about navigation and so on and could then concentrate entirely on flying helicopters. So spend £5000 to save a few extra hours on helicopters. Does that make sense to anyone except the f/w school who said it?

My advice would be - if you have a decent job, hang on to it, start flying helicopters, and see how you get on. And along with all the bull****, you'll get some reliable advice on here, and you'll soon learn who you can trust.

Camp Freddie

2nd Jul 2006, 07:41

Hey Mr RJC,

I have copied below what I posted on another thread some time ago, which I believe is still true.

CPL(H) only £40k approx high risk, no chance of employent
CPL(H) + FI rating £60k approx, low risk much better chance of employment but rewards can be low until you become high time
CPL(H) + IR £70k high risk, potentially high returns is you get to the north sea, have been recruiting recently but by the time you get there who knows.

thats it really

regards

CF

whoateallthepies

2nd Jul 2006, 08:04

Whirly
I think the advice to do the fixed wing PPL first is sound.
Learn all the basics of being in the airborne environment without paying the high cost of doing it in a helicopter, then that acquired knowledge will help whilst learning to stay the right way up in a Robbie.

I came through fixed wing - then helis. (Admittedly with the RAF in the 70's!) and it seems like a sensible way to save money when learning. Just a thought from an old git.

Whirlygig

2nd Jul 2006, 08:12

Whoateallthepies, a fixed wing licence can only save you a MAX of 6 hours towards a PPL(H). So, that 6 hours at £250 versus 45 hours at £100 per hour! Whirly's right and I'm appalled that a school would suggest it.

I've never flown fixed wing - don't think it's done me much harm!

However, I have heard that the following MAY be feasible IF you plan to do an iinstrument rating and do already have a fixed wing licence.

Get a fixed wing instrument rating and convert it to heli IR. I've not done the sums as it's not applicable to me but it may be a cost effective route for some.

Cheers

Whirls

lup

2nd Jul 2006, 08:46

37!! you will be competing with young hopefulls you are very nearly half your age with no " partner in tow", and with pilots your age with 3000 hours plus with all the prefered types and experience.

If you want a job change, and with your IT experience, get into the CRM environment.
There are plenty of courses for a lot less money, which will take you from nothing to an instructor.
The industry is going that way rapidly, at least you will be in the industry, but with your age, I would be the last to advise you to embark on a flying career, sorry but that's the way it is in my opinion.

I wish you all the best, but if a school tries to tell you otherwise, they are not being honest with you.

helicopter-redeye

2nd Jul 2006, 09:14

RJC, by the time you have finished a PPL (while working); the ground school exams (while doing a full time job); done the hour building and completed the CPL course + test in your holidays, there will have been an upsurge in the number of IT based SIM environments for heli training available so the total costs will be lower.

So there is a future in IT ...

h-r;)

whoateallthepies

2nd Jul 2006, 11:45

Whirls
I stand corrected. If it doesn't save money then it's not worth it. plus it's much more fun to spend the cash on helicopter time than fixed wing!:cool:

Whirlybird

2nd Jul 2006, 12:20

37!! you will be competing with young hopefulls you are very nearly half your age with no " partner in tow", and with pilots your age with 3000 hours plus with all the prefered types and experience.

Whether that is a problem depends on what you want to do. I was a lot older than that when I started. I'm now instructing fulltime, and happy to stay doing that for as long as I can pass medicals and react fast enough to stop students killing me. Interestingly, I'm now getting the impression I might get some commercial flying if I got more ratings, but I'll hit 60 in not that many years, so I'm not sure if it's worth the outlay, or even if I want to. But 37? Really no big deal. Apart from the military guys, most people do this in their 30s, 40s, and older; they usually don't have the money before that.

Whirlygig

2nd Jul 2006, 12:30

This may not be valid and is purely my opinion, but I have got the impression that many operators would prefer someone (all other things being equal) with a more mature outlook! Quite often you would be flying on your own. I'm not saying that the younger CPL (say, in their 20s) wouldn't be able to do that but I don't think 37 is too old. Heck, there's still a good 20 years left in you; more if you're an instructor.

Cheers

Whirls

lup

2nd Jul 2006, 21:06

I get the impression that RJC would like to do commercial work, which is the reason for my 37!! comment, as he is just starting out.

Whirlybird your comment,
"I'm now getting the impression I might get some commercial flying if I got more ratings, but I'll hit 60 in not that many years, so I'm not sure if it's worth the outlay"

I rest my case your worship, it used to be the norm that the young guys did the instructing so that by the time they reached 30 they had the hours to get the break they needed, it has obviously changed in the more years than I would like to mention.

Yes if all you want to do is teach, do it when you are 50, if that is what RJC wants to do, sound advice mate, but a very competetive market.

Whirlygig,
most operators, don't give a rats about how mature your "outlook" is, they want a bumb in the seat, and their insurance underwriter would like some experience, I have found that both here and overseas.

Again just my opinion, I am lucky enough not to have had to build hours
teaching, but long enough in the industry to know the realities.

Whirlygig

2nd Jul 2006, 21:22

I had already made the comment about insurance requirements and I did say - all other things being equal. I am not doubting your experience but, guessing you come from a military background, things are a little different when operators are looking to recruit civilians.

And surely instructing IS commercial work; it may not be public transport but it IS commercial.

So, can you explain why, with hours,ratings and experience being equal, that an operator would prefer a 27 year old to a 37 year old? They can't seriously imagine that they would get either of them "for life" as an employee!

Cheers

Whirls

helicopter-redeye

2nd Jul 2006, 22:14

They would probably offer a lower salary.

This is how it works in every industry ...

Whirlygig

2nd Jul 2006, 22:20

A fair point H-R!

Cheers

Whirls

BigMike

3rd Jul 2006, 06:38

My advice is to use your money to start a bussiness (IT is your expertise) work hard for a few years, and when the money is coming in, complete a PPL and fly for fun. You could even invest into a Helicopter company latter on, then you will get a tax break on your CPL training, and get to do some flying. ;)

rotorspin

3rd Jul 2006, 07:20

Bigmike - the wisest advice I have ever heard on Pprune... :D

That's the way I did it!

Professional heli flying isn't an easy profession to get into it takes money, money and more money.....

The Nr Fairy

3rd Jul 2006, 07:37

My route was PPL(A), PPL(H) some 9 years later, CPL(H) in 2002/2003 (don't remember which!) and will be doing the instructor's course this year. My IT job paid up to the CPL(H) and the flying work covered costs over the two years (base/line/LPC etc.)

Whatever route you take, make sure you get in an environment where you're allowed a little bit of rope but are properly monitored as you progress, and maintain your integrity. If not, it can get very expensive and smelly very quickly if you cover something up (not me, I hasten to add) or get in a situation where your experience is overwhelmed by conditions.

lup

3rd Jul 2006, 13:58

Whirlygig.
I did not make the the difference between commercial flying and instructing, read up a few threads to whirlybird, Quote "I'm now getting the impression I might get some commercial flying if I got more ratings, but I'll hit 60 in not that many years, so I'm not sure if it's worth the outlay, or even if I want to"

No, you guessed wrong again, I am not ex military pilot, and you can count on one hand how many civilian cpl(h)'s were in the UK when I started.

RJC is starting out at 37,by the time he gets the experience to be employable as a, for arguements sake, a charter pilot,free lance pilot, police/ems pilot etc, etc he will be way past 37.

Big mike, has hit the nail on the head for RJC's situation,IN MY OPINION.
No I can't explain why operators would prefer 27 over 37, but over the years I have seen a great many 20 something year old low time cv's go into file 13 next to a chief pilots desk.

If someone like RJC is going to invest his hard earned money in our industry, and asks for advice he needs to see the pitfalls before he makes the leap.

Whirlygig, sounds like I hit a nerve, on the instructor comment, was not intentional, but begs me to ask the question, what experience, other than instructing do you have to advise RJC?

Just an observation, not a dig.

RJC, I sincerley hope you make it despite the hurdles stacked against you,
good luck.

Whirlygig

3rd Jul 2006, 14:28

Lup, if you'd care to read my profile you will see that there is no raw nerve to hit. I have a PPL and I do not have an instructor's rating.

However, it's just that your advice seems to contradict what so many others have said (over the years) on here with respect to age vs employability. I was curious as to why when it doesn't seem to have been a factor in many other people's choice of career switch.

Cheers

Whirls

lup

3rd Jul 2006, 15:30

whirlygig,I have been too busy flying over the years to post and stay ahead of PPRUNE, and that as I said before includes overseas were I am away from the coffee tents of Ascot etc, better than PPRUNE sometimes.

But I can say that I can't recall meeting any pilot either flying the same roster or around the bizars in the UK who started their career close to 40.

There must be some as I have just spoken to a USA pilot friend of mine, who has met a few out there, mainly flying low paid traffic jobs due to their experience,but the market in the US is much different to the UK.

When I flew out there, the young starters were all going through to instructor level to gain hours to move on to better conditions.
They were paid peanuts and had to buy maps and manuals from the school who employed them.

Maybe the industry will wake up soon, when all the experienced guys start hanging up their flying gloves and discover the huge gap between what experience is left and the low timers waiting for a break.

If or when that happens, I won't be giving RJC the same advise.
By the way don't use a rumour forum to to mould your views on aviation.
RJC did say he had a partner in tow, he will have to take into account Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome, before he starts spending his money.

jemax

3rd Jul 2006, 17:56

RJC

1. DO you have access to £60k, (including remotgaging your house if neccessary)

2. Do you have the will to go all the way, despite what everyone else says, friends, family and PPruners

3. Are you prepared to work F***ing hard to achieve it, including uprooting from where you live

Answer a definate yes to all 3 and you'll do fine.

18th Aug 2004 I took my first PPL lesson, now I am CPL/FI with approaching 600 hours and am delighted with my decision. By the way I'm 38.

So get off your ass and decide what you want to do, whatever it is if you want it badly enough you will achieve it, if you don't you'll just be wasting your money.

Good Luck

lup

3rd Jul 2006, 19:30

jemax,

Good questions and very true, and glad you came out the other end with the will to go on, great stuff.

however RJC's original question Quote "What happens next? Would anyone employ me? Consider training me, type conversion etc to small turbine etc? If I signed up with a company for x years, would that help?

I would not be looking to work off-shore, just on shore commercial work. Charter type of stuff I guess.

No mention of flight instructor there, "onshore commercial work charter type"
You may be RJC two years down the line, so the best to answer his direct question.

How much onshore charter have you done, and how many applications so far?, it does not get any more real than you.

jemax

3rd Jul 2006, 20:14

Fair point,

Guess it has been about 100 hours onshore commercial/charter the rest instructing, but it's making a resonable living, and I hope it gets better from here as my experience grows.

I'm still very much wet behind the ears, but my point is you'll find a million people who'll just say it's a stupid idea, including my mum! But unless you have access to the resources and really commit it's immaterial cos you won't get through and succeed anyway.

Beats my old PLC desk job every day of the week :)

Whirlybird

3rd Jul 2006, 20:41

lup,

In his third post, in response to my post, RJC said
So, planning ahead a few years - perhaps an FI rating is a way to earn enough to live on and simply enjoy myself in the process. Or get a lucky break at some point in the future. Whirlybird, yes, what you say does make sense to me. Enjoying a job can easily take priority over what you paid for it.
Under the circumstances, it was perfectly reasonable for Whirlygig and I to assume that RJC was considering instructing...along with everything else you can do with a CPL(H). That is why I pointed out that one can follow that route at virtually any age. It was totally relevant to the conversation which was taking place.

I'll never quite understand why people read the first post and appear to skip all the rest, when a thread has already gone to two pages. :ugh:

tomstheword

3rd Jul 2006, 23:33

I keep seeing the 60K (GBP) figure mentioned and cant help but wonder why somebody would spend that much on a helicopter licence.

If you were to travel to New Zealand or Australia that amount of money would buy approx 450 - 370 hrs respectively.

New Zealand requires 150 hrs for CPL H which can be reduced by up to 50 hrs (1 hr for every 2 hrs PIC Aeroplane within the previous 12 months). $65000 = 21,385 Pound

Australia requires 105 hrs for CPL H which can be reduced to 70 hrs (yes seventy) if the combined fixed wing course is taken. $50,000A = 20,145 Pound

Find out whats involved in converting back to a British licence. You may be able to do the majority of your hours somewhere else and sit your licence in England.

Worth thinking about.

pohm1

4th Jul 2006, 02:42

I think the figure of GBP 60k usually includes the cost of an IR, which is the foot in the door, although no guarantee, to the North Sea co pilot positions. The paper trail of converting an Australian/NZ CPL(H) to JAA is a long and expensive one.:*

Camp Freddie

4th Jul 2006, 07:49

tomstheword / pohm1,

£60k is the approximate cost of CPL(H) + FI rating
£70k is the approximate cost of CPL (H) + IR

in my opinion having instructed, done VFR charter/aerial work and North Sea, I would get an FI rating before you try and get an IR, because at least you will able to keep flying as an instructor, build your hours and work towards being employable for VFR charter/aerial work and hopefully get an IR down the line.

if you get a CPL(H) + IR, you are ony realistically employable by 3 companys Bond/Bristow/CHC and if they are not recruiting or if you fail selection, you are not really employable as a commercial pilot and you have no FI rating to get some experience either.

if you want to cover all the options and get a CPL(H) + FI rating + IR, that is going to cost approx £90k and its starting to sound a little expensive, but you would be in a better position. I would not reccomend this though it is just far too much to much to spend in my opinion on your career.

also what people never seem to mention is that an IR in a helicopter is the hardest thing you will ever do and big tough men have been known to suffer a lot of stress, and people do fail it, even if though they have spent £30k extra on it.

to answer the original question what happens after getting a CPL(H), the answer in many cases is "nothing", unless you have worked out what you are doing next.

if anyone is reckless enough to do a basic CPL only with no provision after that, they will surely be disapointed and have a big row with wife/ husband about how they have wasted all the savings / remortgage and possibly moved into the spare room :(

regards

CF

tu154

4th Jul 2006, 09:01

I did my CPL around the same time as Jemax, however I'm based in Ireland and the scene is a little different. I can't answer yes to one of his three criteria - are you willing to move anywhere for a job. However, I have a non flying job that lets me fly part time, and I'm not going to give that up any time soon.
On the IR, I went to a well known FI and IR training school to discuss options, and they discouraged me from doing the IR at this point. (245 hours). 1. Because with my eperience level I would struggle to pass it in the twin, and 2. without a job to go in to, or at least an offer of a job, it's no use. No one except the north sea operators is going to take on a low hour CPL with a basic IR and no IR experience. They also said that it's downright dangerous if the low houred IR pilot does not go into a structured environment to build on the initial training. So I've decided not to go that route at present. I also agree on the comments about the difficulty, this has been emphasised to me many times.
The way to go seems to be FI, but with a school you can build a relationship with that will also progress you in other ways. It's about personality and being in the right place at the right time to take advantage of an opportunity. It does happen.
Edited to say: By build a relationship I mean, possibly employ you as FI afterwards, give you a deal on training and type ratings, possibly positioning work etc.

Darren999

5th Jul 2006, 06:33

RJC. This is my two pence worth for you...

At 36 I was going through a mid life crisis, like you, I really wanted to fly for a living. Spent 17 yrs working in London, and wanted a change.

I sold my house, car, motobike, parachute, dog, everything. Moved to the US and worked in PA. I obtained all my qualifications up to CFI. I was very lucky to be able to secure my work visa, then green card to follow. I taught for over 2 yrs, then moved to company in the GOM. Now fly tours in Alaska for the summer, not quite sure what to do after though :rolleyes:

Wouldn't mind working back in the UK to be nearer my family.

I have heard rumours that a larger GOM company may be sponsering visa's due to the lack of pilots around. If that would be the case, you my consider moving to the US, perhaps on a J1 before they take it away, then apply to this company once you are a CFI with 1000hrs. Or at least speak to them about the visa's before you come.
Just my quick thought on the subject

Good luck with whatever you choose :ok:

MD900 Explorer

5th Jul 2006, 10:25

RJC

I would certainly have done all my research into the various flying establishments, before i started to put £40k+ into getting an CPL-H. I would also advise to only do a normal CPL instead of as frozen ATPL-H, because if you havent got the IR component within 3 years of passing the exams you lose the entitlement and have to resit the 8 or 9 exams, and for what.

Doing an IR before you have a minimum of 500 hours is IMHO a waste of time unless you know someone in any one of the North Sea Companies. There is alot to be said for where you do your training, because certain operators prefer their students to have gone to certain institutions.

Whilst you are going through your CPL-H training, you should probably go modular. This equals potentailly more hours after training and the ability for you to work in IT and train at your own pace, making contacts and getting pally with your flight school. If your flying school is small enough and does some commercial work, you should enquire whilst you are doing your PPL-H and Commercial theory exams to work as ground crew for these companies. This will give you an insight to ramp work.

If the operations dude likes you and you get repeat work, you may get the opportunity to get some supervised ops work when you have qualified. NEVER bite the hand that feeds you and try not to burn any bridges on your tempestous route into helicopter aviation, as this is a very small world and a rumour is all it takes to mess up your career. So from the moment you have your JAR Class1 Medical in your hands, start creating the contacts and speak to people. Be open and welcoming and definately not demanding. Look at what you can give to your future employer and not what your future employer can give you (Type ratings on his bill and not yours etc).

Take skills with you to your future employer. Getting an ADR cert for tanks wouldnt be a bad idea. Some sort of ground handling experience and ops experience is a start. The rest will happen if carefully planned.

MD:D

Pandalet

5th Jul 2006, 13:19

While we're on the topic of IRs, will the off-shore companies (who appear to be the only folks who ALWAYS require an IR) accept a single-engine IR (i.e. one done in Grandpa Jetranger), or do you have to have a twin IR to be treated as 'having an IR'?

I guess what I asking is considering you need a twin IR to fly offshore, would a company be happy to cover your conversion from single IR to twin IR, or is that a big no-no?

BaronG

5th Jul 2006, 14:23

It seems acceptable to complete a Single Engine IR and then get converted by one of the North Sea three to a twin type for their ops.

Since Bristow's are the only ones in the UK with a single engine IR course that's one way to go. I haven't heard of the non-Bristow companies having a problem with Bristow's IR; I don't see why they should, from what I hear it's a good course.

Having said that, cost-wise, the various twin courses around are not much different in price and you come out with a twin rating (the Bristow course does not include a 206 rating).

As I'm looking at these options right now, I do feel rather nervous at putting down so much money simply to be able to apply for a job...I imagine the bank will feel the same way!

BG

Camp Freddie

5th Jul 2006, 14:29

Pandalet,

my company have hired plenty of people with single IR's, then they have also hired plenty with twin IR's. and I was lucky enough to be hired with no IR, which they nicely paid for.

but given 2 equal people they will go for the twin IR person, it all depends on who they have got on there list at the time.

BaronG,

you are right to feel nervous as the chance of not being hired is high, your problem however is you are competing against people who will take that risk.

this is not a career where you can look coldly at the figures and justify them to a bank/accountant. the risk/return ratio is to high to be sensible, however most people who persist and are "driven" make it in the end.

in the past like when I joined at the start of the century it was not a neccesity to have an IR as they were paying for them, but it is becoming increasingly more of a standard requirement.

regards

CF

WingRotor

7th Jul 2006, 02:30

RJC
I would certainly have done all my research into the various flying establishments, before i started to put £40k+ into getting an CPL-H. I would also advise to only do a normal CPL instead of as frozen ATPL-H, because if you havent got the IR component within 3 years of passing the exams you lose the entitlement and have to resit the 8 or 9 exams, and for what.
Doing an IR before you have a minimum of 500 hours is IMHO a waste of time unless you know someone in any one of the North Sea Companies. There is alot to be said for where you do your training, because certain operators prefer their students to have gone to certain institutions.
Whilst you are going through your CPL-H training, you should probably go modular. This equals potentailly more hours after training and the ability for you to work in IT and train at your own pace, making contacts and getting pally with your flight school. If your flying school is small enough and does some commercial work, you should enquire whilst you are doing your PPL-H and Commercial theory exams to work as ground crew for these companies. This will give you an insight to ramp work.
If the operations dude likes you and you get repeat work, you may get the opportunity to get some supervised ops work when you have qualified. NEVER bite the hand that feeds you and try not to burn any bridges on your tempestous route into helicopter aviation, as this is a very small world and a rumour is all it takes to mess up your career. So from the moment you have your JAR Class1 Medical in your hands, start creating the contacts and speak to people. Be open and welcoming and definately not demanding. Look at what you can give to your future employer and not what your future employer can give you (Type ratings on his bill and not yours etc).
Take skills with you to your future employer. Getting an ADR cert for tanks wouldnt be a bad idea. Some sort of ground handling experience and ops experience is a start. The rest will happen if carefully planned.
MD:D

This is all correct, but it's really very simple!

You can't start a career change like this without having finance to back it up with. Be prepared to spend some serious money and lots of hard work if you want a career in aviation. Belive me, there is no easy or cheap way around it.

This is what I know several successful JAA helicopter pilots have done:

1.FAA flight training in the US, with the possibility for getting an Instructor Job over there after and build (hopefully) about a 1000+ flight hr's.

2.Enrolled with a UK ground school for JAA ATPL ground training after.
The JAA CPL-H flight check can in fact be done with a helicopter flight school in Florida.

It is also much cheaper to train in the US and a good way to gain some flight experience. (Which I think is a critical factor for employment in Europe/UK.)

Good Luck!

WingRotor

SebW

13th Jul 2006, 20:44

Very informative discusion, I've probably learnt more spending 10 mins reading this than the past year searching for a similar points.

Unless I'm mistaken, the only civilian route that has really been talked about is the modular route to acheiving the commercial licence, is taking the intergrated approach to much of a risk? Bearing in mind the cost/low flying hours etc? if I went this route would I have to spent X amout extra to acheive additional hours/ratings before empolyers will even consider me?
As I'm young, does that put me in a better or worse situation?

Cheers

Seb

Camp Freddie

13th Jul 2006, 20:58

SebW,

is taking the intergrated approach to much of a risk? Bearing in mind the cost/low flying hours etc?
I think it is more of a risk, you are commited to doing it all in 1 year at the speed cabair or whoever it is run it, you cannot continue to work full time while this is going on, which means yo should add loss of earnings to the cost,
IMO it is a foolish person who gives up their main source of income to become a helicopter pilot, especially when the modular route can be taken at your own pace.
also remember on integrated route you get only a CPL, you never get a PPL as far as i understand it, so stopping to reflect on things after your PPL is not an option

if I went this route would I have to spent X amout extra to acheive additional hours/ratings before empolyers will even consider me?
yes above arguments still apply, you still need to hourbuild to get FI rating or IR etc

As I'm young, does that put me in a better or worse situation?
i cant see that it makes any difference except you could try and join the military and get all your training for free, I was too old for that option.

regards

CF

SebW

13th Jul 2006, 21:43

Many thanks for the quick reply. Totally agree, I think the best step for me now is to get the PPL and go from there. The main reason I was considering the intergrated route was to spend 100% of my time learning the necessary and not have to worry about my job - but if the likelyhood of employment after that is poor, it'll be better the long route!

Cheers

RJC

14th Jul 2006, 19:33

All,

Many thanks for all the replies, e-mails and PMs. This thread has made for interesting reading. There is some good advice in here, from all sides. I have sat back and taken in what people have said.

The FI stuff is interesting, I will look into that. I spent a few years teaching people to ride motorbikes, at weekends (for those old enough, in the UK, who may remember the old Part 1 and 2 tests and the early days of CBTs). Now, the pay from that just about covered the petrol - but it was done more for the enjoyment than the money. Although, the students didn't often try to kill me on the road...{as a complete aside, when an MZ bike stalls at traffic lights and starts backwards (2 stroke), and the student tries to pull away in a fluster - the face of the driver in the car behind is an amazing sight}

I have friends recently emigrated to NZ and Auz, so perhaps some visits to see them, and a look around down there is on the cards too. If nothing more than looking at a bit of hour building later down the line.

Anyway, I have kicked things off, Class 1 is booked.... without that, I'm stuffed from the start anyway.

dr_peter

1st Sep 2006, 07:45

I am looking at doing and CPL course. I've looked around most of the schools, added all the costs up......

It's a lot of money to retrain, but it's my dream job.
I am a bit worried that there are no jobs for new pilots.
I was planning to do my IR as everyone say's it's a must. But I am still only going to have 200 odd hours.

I want to do EMS, but I know it's a few years off.

Are there any new pilots here that can't get jobs.
What other options are there for me work in the US? I don't fancy being an instructor.

Peter :ok:

helopat

1st Sep 2006, 07:54

Dr Peter (head shrinker?),

I'm a long way from being where you are, but I think you probably need to get your head around instructing...a very valuable skill and a way to earn (and I do mean earn) the hours you'll need later on to get into the EMS world. To put a positive spin on instructing, you'll REALLY get to know yourself as a flyer when you instruct...for starters you'll need to be really confident in yourself as an aviator to be confident you can teach others to do it.

Anyway, thats my two cents, bob, sheckles worth...good luck breaking into the industry...hope you find something you like to do...if not, good luck instructing.

HP

Bravo73

1st Sep 2006, 08:17

Hello (again) Peter,

Further to my post to you in the Wannabes section (don't worry, you're welcome :ugh:), here's a link to the FAQ post that I mentioned:

Older Training FAQ (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=122944).

I suggest that you take the time to read through the various threads. Most of your questions have already been answered.

I am a bit worried that there are no jobs for new pilots. There are jobs available, you just need to know where to find them. In the UK and the US, most of the entry level jobs are instructing.

I was planning to do my IR as everyone say's it's a must. Who exactly is 'everyone'? Don't confuse the fixed wing world with how things operate in rotary. Only certain jobs in the rotary world require an IR. Few of these jobs are for newbies.

Are there any new pilots here that can't get jobs. Lots and lots and lots.

I don't fancy being an instructor. Good luck to you then. See the above point.

:cool:

dr_peter

1st Sep 2006, 10:25

I'm looking to do my training at HAI in USA.
If I do a CFI. Can I expect to get paid for teaching or is it just fly for free and build your hours up? What do you need to have 1000 I am guessing.

Where can I go to get twin engine experience even if I have to pay for it.

Bravo73

1st Sep 2006, 11:56

Yawn. I'm getting bored of this. :ugh: :ugh:

Read the other threads. Many have been there before you. Learn from their experiences.

OUT.

Whirlygig

1st Sep 2006, 12:21

Dr Peter,

I’m afraid you are going to have to do a lot of research as there will be many questions that only you can answer as it’s only you who knows your circumstances and what you want out of life.

However, if you haven’t already downloaded it, I recommend LASORS for UK JAA rules and regs regarding licences and all things aviating. It is a large .pdf file but worth it. Or you can buy it as a book.

First things first – have you flown a helicopter? If not, get a trial lesson – you might find it’s not for you.

Secondly – get a Class 1 medical (CAA website for details). If you can’t get this, your career ain’t gonna happen in the UK.

If you want to work in the States, better have a word with the American embassy with regard to visas.

If you want to fly a twin and are prepared to pay for it, then you can go anywhere you want! In the UK, it would cost about £800 - 1,000 per hour.

Cheers

Whirls

DBChopper

1st Sep 2006, 15:15

Dr Peter,

My two penn'orth...

You'll find there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum. I have drawn upon it myself having been assisted by some very knowledgeable and experienced individuals who have given their time to assist me and other newbies. It is not a place just to fire off question after question then sit back and wait for others to do the work. Good manners dictate that if folk go out of their way, as they have, to assist you, you might at least have the decency to acknowledge their replies, thank them for their help and then do some of the legwork yourself.

If you are so worried at this early stage about the doom & gloom aspects of flying helicopters professionally then perhaps it's just not for you?

Ok, I'll get back in my box now - I've been working nights and your posts made me grumpy ;)

DBChopper :oh:

Whirlybird

1st Sep 2006, 15:45

dr Peter,

I can't really add much to what others have said - do a search, read old threads, look at all the info that's here already.

However, you should know that this is not an industry for those who want a secure, reliable, wellpaid, pensionable job. You might be lucky and get one of those, but most likely you'll have to do anything that comes along for a few....months, years, who knows. Instructing is paid, and is fun, but if you don't fancy it, don't inflict yourself on the poor students who are paying for you to teach them.

That's about all I can offer right now. You do rather give the impression that this industry isn't for you, though I'm ready to be proved wrong.

Bravo73

1st Sep 2006, 16:39

Many thanks, DBChopper.

You managed to sum up exactly how I was thinking. :ok:

I just wish that I was as articulate (and as patient) as you sometimes... :{

rudestuff

2nd Sep 2006, 18:58

dr_peter:

FLY FOR FREE? A CFI is a professional pilot and should expect to get paid - people who undervalue their skills keep wages low in this industry.

PBRADY

22nd Nov 2006, 22:02

Hi All, I'm new to this Forum and i was wondering if anyone could help?. I'm looking to start my PPL in the UK early in the new year, followed by my CPL once i've got the hours in. i'm hoping to be completed in 18 months to 2 years.

As all you pilots out there can appreciate this is not a cheap matter and as i'm looking to pay for this myself i need to be sure there are jobs out there for new pilots. Could anyone tell me what job opportunities
are there for new pilots and what sort of money they pay??

Heliport

23rd Nov 2006, 03:27

Welcome to the forum.

There's lots of information here: Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122944)

You can also use the 'Search' facility to find more.

Heliport

PBRADY

23rd Nov 2006, 09:22

Hi all, i'm new to this forum and am after for some information. I'm looking to start my PPl early next year and continue on to take my Commercial (CPL) (once i've got the hours in) and I'm allowing myself 18 months to 2 years to achieve both.

The thing is i'm looking to pay for the training myself which i'm sure everyone can appreciate is not cheap. once trained i'll be looking for work and i was wondering if anyone knew what the sort of jobs (UK Based) would be available for new pilots and what sort of money thay would pay ?

Heliport

23rd Nov 2006, 09:30

You asked much the same question yesterday.

Click HERE (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=253386)

Heliport

FlyByRotor

23rd Nov 2006, 20:31

Been training in the US & A... Decided to head on back to Europe. Going through the torturous CPL (H) ground school at the moment, and I'm getting different signals about the market out there. Especially since I'm sitting with a mere 220 hours TT. Any opinions? Not among the desperate ones, since I don't expect to land anything huge with a couple of hundred hours under my belt, but I thought I'd consult the European market for the first time. . . Glad to be here...

Another thing... This "Italian Question Bank" I hear about, is it as valuable as I hear? If it is, it could make for some christmas-time litterature for me, so be honest, please.

...Anywho, if there are any rotorheads out there, I'd love to hear from you. I'm curious what the next few years will be like. Actually, I'm more curious as to if I will pass these exams. I've been flying for a year and a half, thinking I'm all that & a bag of chips, waving my FAA license around... I've barely dipped my toe in the water, haven't I...? =)

- A

Flingingwings

24th Nov 2006, 13:58

Takes rose tinted glasses off :uhoh:

FBR,
Excuse the brevity and directness of my response.

Particularly for the UK as a newly qualified CPL(H) with minimal hours I'm afraid your licence is basically worthless. Chances of finding any work with a basic CPL - almost zero. Chances of finding enough work to survive financially, zero less a thousand :(

You'll have two options once you have the CPL both cost roughly the same (about £40K).

1) Build additional hours and then get an FI ticket. No guarantee of a job.Lots of dubious companies. If you are lucky enough to find a job expect to work long hours, be poorly treated and very poorly paid (Think in many cases glorified slave labour with scraps of flying). Long term - little prospect of any real progress.

2) Multi engine Instrument rating. Very high risk. Only real option is to look towards the North Sea 'big three' and hope they are recruiting and your face fits. UK onshore with minimal hours and a 'wet inked' IR you stand no chance.

Sorry for the reality check. Search the archived 'Training and Job prospects thread' and you'll read similar. The archived thread is the best place to start, and will explain the limited responses made to your post.

There is no easy way to break into this industry. The biggest factor is LUCK.

To answer your last comment - You've yet to fill the pond, let alone dip your toe in it :eek:

FW

velboy

24th Nov 2006, 15:04

@flingingwings

Gotta say that a pretty harsh and cynical view.

The work is there you just go out and find it. Yeah in the beginning its tough but what job isn't when your learning the trade.

Was at my local flying school Tuesday and asked about prospects. The Chief FI said we would take 3 FI's right now. Trouble is getting a FI who knows what side of the heli to get into.

In short if you not a dumb bunny there is work.

Being personable with the right attitude goes a long way

paco

24th Nov 2006, 15:22

About the Italian Database - most of the plugs have been filled on that now (I know the guy who did some of it) - it's quite old, but still useful as representative questions rather than real ones. It's now six editions removed.

Good luck!

Phil

Flingingwings

24th Nov 2006, 15:48

Velboy,

Sorry I don't agree. My comments aren't harsh, they're a realistic honest opinion on the current state of the industry in the UK for low hours guys. A touch cynical I concede but I've self funded nowt to CPL-FI- and ME IR and therefore feel I am qualified to comment upon my experiences and those of others I know.

Perhaps as a CPL holder you'd care to elaborate on how much revenue flying you complete? Do you fund your own LPC's and base and line checks? Care to elaborate on your own profiles comment of 'Computer consultant wanting to fly'? Or why other posts of yours ask for people willing to share hours building costs? No point implying a straight CPL will get you work, when you feel you need to self fund extra hours yourself.

This ISN'T an attack. It's a reality check that will allow FBR to decide how much he is willing to gamble in order to 'live his dream'. Perhaps FBR has no extra cash for any additional training and no other trade upon which to gain an income........

Did this CFi tell you how much an FI course with him would cost? How many hours per year you'd fly? Why do they need three instructors in November? Can any school guarantee you a position post course? :confused: (Ok now I'm bordering on cynical - but there are lots of additional factors to consider. Remember a flying schools job is to sell you training NOT employment!)

My views are only there to enable FBR to make an informed decision before he parts with some serious amounts of cash. And I hasten to add similar views have been noted on this forum for some time. Sections of this industry survive on the willingness of low hours guys to keep paying for stuff themselves and/or work for free. A mornings phoning round will elicit the turn over of new FI's (at some schools) and the terms and conditions offered. If you still don't believe me I'll give you the numbers of a few current experienced FI's and you can hear their views first hand. As a former one myself I have nothing but respect for the vast majority of FI's - they work harder for less than any other section of this industry I have encountered.

I'm not saying FBR or anybody else for that matter shouldn't go for it. But, better to know the risks and approach 'the dream' with your eyes wide open rather than listen to sales hype.

Within many schools a 'dead mans shoes' policy exists. When somebody above you moves on, you make progress. For small operators many aren't willing to allow all to progress simultaneously. It's harsh, but hey that's life.

I don't regret any of my flying. I regret some of the places I've worked though and some of the rubbish I've had to tolerate in order to make progress. I am also lucky in that I now have a very good flying job, with an excellent company.

Being qualified, enthusiastic and personable are all good traits, but ultimately LUCK remains the biggest factor. I was lucky. Are you going to guarantee FBR the same?

FW

skidbiter123

24th Nov 2006, 17:05

Well said.

velboy

24th Nov 2006, 17:45

@flingingwings

As you can see I don't post much on here. I know why now. Really must update my profile sometime.

I think we look at the glass differently.

Enjoy yourself.

Flingingwings

24th Nov 2006, 19:03

Velboy,

Please lose the chip on your shoulder. It would be more benificial to FBR and many others if you took the time to explain your differing views.

This industry is 2% qualification and ability and 98% right place at right time. What is your objection to FBR being presented with all the facts?

I can only comment on my experiences and on those of others I know. As you hold a CPL perhaps you'd share how you attained that all important foot in the door? How much revenue flying do you complete each year? Potential earnings? Long term prospects? Mine is a fair honest reflection of the difficulty a low hours cpl will face, as somebody who's been there, and who now works in the Uk onshore SPIFR section of the industry. I fear (as per your April 2006 posting regarding R22 and R44 hire near Chester for an ICAO CPL holder who wishes to fly for recreation only) that you'll be unable to provide any of the answers that FBR and others pray for.

Alternatively if you don't hold an FI rating perhaps you would share details of this school looking for 3 full time FI's as I'm sure many would be interested.

Your first impressions are way off the mark. You will be hard pushed to find anybody more committed to this industry and more upfront about the potential pitfalls. I looked at your profile to see what you were basing your views upon. Amending your profile won't change the reality FBR and others will face.

Take or leave my views. It matters not to me. I love going to work. I loved teaching people to fly. I risked everything and my gamble paid off. It doesn't change the fact that it was still a gamble.

FBR - I'm truly sorry this industry is no brighter for low hours CPL's. Good luck whatever you decide to do.

FW

kissmysquirrel

24th Nov 2006, 19:18

Flingingwings has it spot on. I am in exactly (and I mean exactly) same position as him and we know from experience what the score is here in the UK. Any school who says they need 3 instructors, right now, at this time of year is talking out of their chocolate starfish. A, weather is sh*t. B, only reason anyone needs instructors is if they have just lost every instructor they had for one reason or another. Tells you something about that company straight away.

Velboy, with a freshly minted CPL(H) and a couple of hundred hours, you're not gonna get any work, unless you or daddy owns the company of course. Granted, there are one or two people lucky enough to fly a 206 with minimum hours, but if they have a mishap, it really would make things worse for any other low timer coming along.

This industry promises much and gives little. Don't believe all of those flying company owners who will pretty much tell you what you want to hear.:=

velboy

24th Nov 2006, 19:21

I have no chip on my shoulder and I bare no grievance about this wonderful industry.

I totally agree it’s about contacts; networking is important in any industry and inevitably that is what will get you in door. The right attitude will keep you there.

I have no objection to FBR being presented all that facts but he wasn’t until my comment. I didn’t say it was easy just there are breaks to be had and making contacts allows to maximise those breaks

I wish you all the success in your chosen career.

Now if choose to take my comments another way then that your choice and I respect that.

Chukkablade

24th Nov 2006, 21:19

I’d just like to say thanks to Flingingwings for setting the very honest tone of this thread. As a PPL(A) holder who got bored of fixed wing and who is currently doing the PPL(H), like many I dream of flying for a living as a helicopter pilot, all spurred on in no small measure by the amount of people in the training industry repeatedly telling me how now is just ‘The best time in twenty years’ to be coming into rotary aviation with a fresh issue CPL in the back pocket. However, reading the very honest sitrep in this thread has confirmed what I have always feared deep down – as a mid 30’s bod with 200 odd hours under the belt, I will be lucky to land an instructors position. Anything better is probably the same odds equivalent of a lottery win.

Lets just say I’ll not be making enemies in the day job just in case, and Flingingwings, again, thanks for saying it like it is. Some of us newbies like hearing it without the varnish.:cool:

Whirlybird

25th Nov 2006, 06:28

I love going to work. I loved teaching people to fly. I risked everything and my gamble paid off. It doesn't change the fact that it was still a gamble.

This about says it all. There are many in this position. But for every one whose gamble paid off, there are probably ten still struggling.

Having got my CPL and FI rating, I struggled to get a flying job where I wasn't bullied and treated like **** or spending more on travelling than I was earning. Due to luck and contacts I had a good summer this year (thanks KMS :ok: ). But now? One to two hours instructing per day, weather permitting. I'd earn more working in Tesco! Even my very experienced CFI warned me that I'd probably need another string to my bow over winter. Yes, there may be the very occasional school or FI with oodles of work; I'm not saying anyone on here is lying...please tell me where though. But occasional luck isn't to be relied on when considering a career change, any more than assuming you'll win the lottery because a lucky few do. Kissmysquirrel and Flingingwings tell it like it is; believe them!

Talking of second strings to bows, one of mine is writing about what I love, as many of you know. I don't normally blow my own trumpet, but I've just had an article published in Flight Training News on this subject - opportunities in the industry. I'm not saying it's all spot on, but it might help some of you newbies, so may be worth taking a look. (And I did most of the research for it on PPRuNe, so thanks to many of you.;) )

Leftpedal

25th Nov 2006, 07:48

At the risk of going off thread, how many wannabees out there are prepared to work overseas? I did my training in South Africa and loved the place so much I decided to stay. It wasn't easy getting work early on but it sounds like I had an easier time than many new CPLs in the UK - and since I got my Instructor rating I have been turning work down.

Once you get around the licence conversion process (assuming you already have a UK CPL - otherwise do the licence here) newly qualified CPLs mostly get work flying R44s for Netstar, tracing stolen cars. Money is poor but you can (just) live on it and you can expect around 25-30 hours per month. Apart from that there is a fair bit of pleasure flights, especially in the coastal areas, cash in transit escorts, photography, game capture (specific rating required) as well as instruction.

On the down side; violent crime, AIDS, poverty, bureacracy (getting a work permit or residents permit will drive you insane). Anyway, it worked for me.

Flingingwings

25th Nov 2006, 10:50

KMS, Whirlybird - Thanks :ok: Some people simply won't listen until multiple people beat reality into them :ugh:

Chukkablade - You're welcome. having been grossly misled myself I vowed never to treat anybody that way. Thats why I no longer instruct :{

Vellboy - I never said you need contacts. Contacts may help, but they still provide no guarantees. Reality for many is a 45-70K gamble for nothing in return.

This industry is LUCK, plain and simple. For every individual that tells it like it is, there are 4 or 5 selling it like it isn't (Sorry for nicking your quote FlyingPencil). You help no wannabe implying anything different:=

helilad

25th Nov 2006, 11:21

Alot of good advice here ,but you make your own luck ! Spending 70k on a career you wish to start isnt really that much over a life time .Ask yourself a few questions like :

1. How much do I really want this career?
2. Can I do it part time [keep some real money rolling in] ?
3. Am I dreaming of what this job should be like as opposed to what it actually involves ?
4. Am I prepared to work alot of hrs with sometimes little reward ?
5. Did I have difficulty getting or holding on to employment before ?

Etc etc

Its calculated risk ,do the research and dont fall into the marketing trap of seeing yourself in a big shiny helicopter with a flightsuit and helmet after 200 hrs.I think some of the older boys that post here are not giving honest advice. As much as they "hate" their job they wouldnt [couldnt] do anything else !

Ive witnessed lower than average helicopter pilots get the jobs cause their face fits ,sometimes its who you know.
Risk management is something your faced with every day as a heli-pilot so I suggest wannebes have a big picture look at the situation before they spend their dollar.

Chukkablade

25th Nov 2006, 14:06

At the end of the day Helilad, I'll be one of those guys who spend the £40k+ and give it a go, but Im damn sure going into it with high hopes and low expectations. It's a lottery, and if I dont buy a ticket, I can't win, and thats a fair comparison as to how I view this game. If my face fits someday I'll get my chance, but I accept I'll be one of the many chasing (it would seem) fewer and fewer positions.

Listening to the older guys who a) were never military trained and who did it the civvy way and b) dont have an ulterior motive for painting it all smiles and warm crew rooms, then one consistent theme is that you have to be damned lucky, and be prepared to accept a few hard knockbacks along the way. Also, if you have another trade to fall back on, keep your contacts in that industry, as you may have a few hard winters to endure before the sun finally shines on you. That's advice I recieved from a CPL(H) who was working as a used car salesman the last time I saw him just to make ends meet, and I'm not about to forget it.

My opinion, for the very little its worth, is that any newby who thinks the above 'hard knock' scenarios dont apply to them has so far led a very fortunate, priveledged life - and those tend to come to grinding halts at some point along route.

In the end though, SOMEDAY, it should all be worth it:O If not, at least I can tell my kids I tried.

Vee-r

26th Nov 2006, 03:25

At what point do employers stop laughing you out of the door in the UK? I am curious about the requirements for an entry level turbine job.
Would a CPL with 500 (or 1000?) turbine in say a 206 be employable?
I'm trying to put a different spin on an already well beaten horse, so forgive me if this has been said before :)
I'm working on a way to come home from the US, so if any one has any info it is much appreciated.

kissmysquirrel

26th Nov 2006, 09:33

with 1000hrs Turbine time, (multi eng a definite advantage) over 2000hrs TT? JAR CPL? With plenty of night flying experience, Police would probably be interested.
Again, it's supply and demand, and does the face fit. I suppose it all depends on what you're happy to be doing.

Again, i'll say just because someone has a JAR CPL/IR, 1000TT, Commercial experience and turbine time, it doesn't mean there's any work.

HillerBee

26th Nov 2006, 10:51

It's NOT luck, it's attitude. But that goes for every profession. Of course there are pilot shortages but only for people with the right attitude. Paying the money to get a licence doesn't mean anything, everybody can buy the licence.

Working hard, giving it all you have, not beeing picky the first few thousand, will bring you eventually where you want to be. And you're out there on your own, don't expect people to help you. When you get a little help every now and then it's just very nice, but don't expect (or worse demand) it.

Chukkablade

26th Nov 2006, 12:51

I've always been a great believer that 'luck', be it good or bad, is proportionally generated from 'attitude' HillerBee, so I accept your comments and find myself nodding my head in agreement as I read them. I've always been viewed as 'lucky' in my current career (much to the chagrin of some), but I've always held the view its because I keep smiling even when its 'sh!t tasks are us', do any job to 100% of my abilities (even when it would be easy to hide that I've done a slapdash effort) and generally just get on with it without bitching like a spoilt kid.

Hopefully professional aviation will take to that sort of person the same as the engineering profession does. If so, I'll get there:O

u667gf

30th Nov 2007, 18:23

I am currently in the navy and am planing to start training for my PPL in january, and hopefully gain it by April time. I then plan to work torwards my CPL IR over the next 3 or 4 years whilst staying in the navy.(none of this is being done through the navy, im planning on using cabair during my leave periods.) Once i have gained my CPL IR and am hitting .. say 250 .. 300 hours... am i likely to find an employer? im not to bothered about money, id just like experience. Also... would my job help? I am about to finish a 6 month tour in afghanistan working with the helicopter support unit... my main job has been Hooking underslung loads and traveling with the chinooks managing the freight and passengers. I also regulary fast rope out of lynx's and have completed the navy's Helicopter underwater escape training (Dunker). I was also involved in the rescue op for a downed lynx in 2004 in the channel, so i obviosly know the dangers of flying to :(.. although im not sure this would be the best thing to mention, both for personal moral reasons(4 people died) and for any potential jobs thinking i might freak out while flying..

Any comments would be appreciated

Chris

tu154

1st Dec 2007, 01:17

If you are willing to travel and do your FI course, yep you should find work no problem. In particular there is a shortage of FIs in Ireland.
Without an 'in', getting work as a bare bones CPL is pretty difficult. But can be done.

ferny300

4th Mar 2008, 01:20

hi guys, i'm back with a CPL(H) finally.

Any tips or rumors of companies around the world recruiting experiencless (over 150 hours) but full of enthusiasm pilots?

i know is not easy, whilling to start cleaning choppers, hangars, whatever needed.

thanks guys.

Turkeyslapper

5th Mar 2008, 08:44

I understand at the moment it is a long, painful and very expensive exercise to convert say an oz licence to a UK (or JAR).

What are employment prospects (and conditions/ pay etc) like at the moment in the UK??? I have a Multi Command IR and a few thou hours etc however, before I hand over my hard earned Australian pesos for a licence conversion I would like to have some kind of idea as to employment likelyhood and what the state of play is at the moment...are people in the industry happy and optimistic about what the future holds for rotary drivers?

Any recommendations on where to do a conversion woud be appreciated also.

Anyone?

Thanks

Turkey

Bravo73

5th Mar 2008, 11:47

Turkey,

What are employment prospects (and conditions/ pay etc) like at the moment in the UK??? I have a Multi Command IR and a few thou hours etc

With your sort of background, Turkey, you shouldn't struggle to find work over here. Both the offshore operators and the onshore charter operators would be interested in talking to you once you've got your JAA licence. I can think of 3 largish operators in the London area who have all recently been looking for someone with your experience.

You might just need a bit of time to acclimatise to the UK environment but that should be covered in your CPL/IR conversions.

are people in the industry happy and optimistic about what the future holds for rotary drivers?

Personally speaking, I'm pretty happy with my current 'lot'. The industry generally has recently experienced a very high level of recruitment, both on and offshore. But beware of a couple of things: a) as you are no doubt aware, aviation is very cyclical. If we are currently on the crest of a wave, which way is it likely to go? By the time that you've converted your licence, the situation might be very different. b) If everybody is correct, we've got a recession coming up around the corner. I can't help but feel that the helicopter industry (esp onshore charter and training) is going to get hit by this.

Any recommendations on where to do a conversion woud be appreciated also.

Your biggest hurdle will be the theory exams. I suggest that you get a start on these by going distance learning with either Bristol Ground School (http://www.bristol.gs/groundschool/helicopters.aspx) or Caledonian Advanced Pilot Training (http://www.captonline.com/ATPL.html).

There are a few flying schools which would be suitable for the flying conversions. The best for you would probably be determined where you end up being based. Try this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122944) for plenty of suggestions and recommendations.

Finally, you don't mention if you've got a 'right to work' in the UK. Without an EU passport or visa, this all might be bit of a non starter.

Anyway, I hope this helps and the best of luck with everything. Send me a PM once you've got your JAA licence. :ok:

Power Up

7th Mar 2008, 06:09

Hey guys, just after some info if anyone can help....
I know, everyone thinking deja vu!!!

I was wondering if anybody knew of any operators around Cumbria area?
I am a low hour CPL (R22, B206), trying to get work / hours / funding for FI - the usual scratching for someone in my position.

Cheers

Power Up

ChippyChop

8th Mar 2008, 15:07

Here we go again, another high hour pilot putting **** on a low hour CPL, well done PPrune Fan #1.

There is clearly a fundamental problem in the industry when a person spends a bucket load of cash getting to CPL level, yes that is a qualified commercial pilot, and then cannot get any paid work because he/she doesn't actually have enough hours. If there is a helicopter pilot's assocation in the UK that could try and do something about it we would not have the likes of Fan#1 complaining about the newbies desparate to get some hours so they can get a job that actually pays them to fly.

Its not that newby is intentionally trying to lower the pay scales by flying for free he/she needs the hours and how else are they going to get them?.

What we currently have then is a void from 200 hours to 250 hours and more expense to get an FI rating or up to 500 or 1,000 hours. So just what does newby do?

Meanwhile, he or she is out there on their own trying to put into practice all the lessons learnt but probably taking a few short cuts and getting some bad habits.

So why is there no form of emplyment structure for the newby, where they are paid a lower rate but are under supervision of an AOC holder, surely they could do some repositioning work or something similar. Oh no silly me the AOC holder most likely charges someone they are training for the repositioning, hmmm so what chance do they have? Just who is making all the money out there? and who cares about the future of the industry? We are supposed to be professionals, yet right now there is no complete training program available to the masses to get them from an initial trial flight to a paid helicopter pilot job.

Fan #1 instead of bagging out the newbies lobby for change, surely we could all benefit.

G-HALE

20th May 2008, 16:18

What Chance or Job would a person who is 26 years old and has a fresh JAA CPL(H) and MEIR(H) with 140 hours in R22 and 20 hours in A109.
This person also holds around 3000 hours fixed wing as a Training Captain on ATR 72 and is FI(A)IRI(A) and FE(A) who wants a change in career!!!

Would it be possible to get work on say a A109 for a charter company or what? How can one get Multi crew heli time? Is the North sea and SAR work the only way to get Multi crew time in the UK heli indistry?

Thanks for advice :ok:

Bravo73

20th May 2008, 17:34

Multi-crew work is obviously your only option with an IR and such low rotary time. SPIFR work will start at around the 1500hr (RW) mark.

But the North Sea operators are no longer your only option. Some of the larger onshore charter or corporate operators (eg PremiAir, Harrods, JCB, Starspeed etc) are now employing co-joes for multi-crew ops. The threshold is normally CPL/IR and around 1000TT. However, in this environment, your low RW time will obviously be offset by your considerable FW time.

As long as 'your face fits', I can't see you struggling to find work.

HTH

Whirlygig

20th May 2008, 17:44

I know there are "discounts" in hours for a rotary licence if a fixed wing licence is already held but rotary TT of 160 hours for CPL/IR(H)? Wow, that's going some!!! Is this a hypothetical question?

Cheers

Whirls

Bravo73

20th May 2008, 17:46

Not if (s)he's on an integrated course, Whirls... ;) (110 + 50).

Whirlygig

20th May 2008, 17:49

As I said ... it's going some but!!! :}

Cheers

Whirls

DBChopper

20th May 2008, 19:11

Wow, that's going some!!!

It was the bit about being a 26 year old training captain on the ATR72 that impressed me - respect!

It's easy to be on the outside looking in and doling out opinions, but nonetheless it seems to me a very promising (and potentially lucrative?) airline career would be being thrown away. :eek:

Bravo73

20th May 2008, 19:30

It was the bit about being a 26 year old training captain on the ATR72 that impressed me - respect!

If you start flying commercially at 20, getting to Training Captain in 6 years (and ?4000hrs) should be reasonably achievable, I'd have thought. Kudos anyway. :D

It's easy to be on the outside looking in and doling out opinions, but nonetheless it seems to me a very promising (and potentially lucrative?) airline career would be being thrown away. :eek:

If RW doesn't work out (and it's still potentially just as lucrative as either regional airlines or biz jets), I guess that the OP could always go back to the airlines.

G-HALE

20th May 2008, 20:41

Thanks for the advice people!:ok:
Will look into the onshore operators that was mentioned above.
WhirlyGig, a JAA ATPL(A) holder who wants to get a fATPL(H) only needs 105 Hours(H) TT before they can start the 30hr JAA CPL(H) course, then the MEIR(H) is just complete the TR on A109 and 10 Hours IR training and can take the IR skill test then.
Why the change in career! Wants to do helicopter flying for a few years before settling down with family and then settle working for BA/Virgin doing long haul. Only young once!!!!

Again, thanks for advice :ok:

Bravo73

20th May 2008, 21:04

Out of interest, G-HALE, have you got the rotary licence already? It's not 100% clear from your posts...

windowseatplease

20th May 2008, 22:12

I think it's all speculative!

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=4119188#post4119188

airborne_artist

22nd May 2008, 16:02

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3233161&postcount=149

4,000 hours since April 2007 is going some, it has to be said - he must have flown about 11 hours every day of the week....:E

helimutt

22nd May 2008, 16:07

yet another c*ck in our midst. Lot of them coming out of the woodwork with the improvement in the Wx? 3k hours, TRI etc etc? What an utter load of sh1te!!

Flingingwings

22nd May 2008, 17:49

With those hours I reckon offshore rotary is your/your friends only option.

helimutt

23rd May 2008, 06:57

Ok then Franz, if it's not the poster but a friend of his, wouldn't you think that someone with the experience he speaks of would know where to look, or at least have a better grasp on what position he could expect?

Call me Cynical!

Whirlygig

23rd May 2008, 08:33

Hey Cynical (not sure your new name suits you!), you're not the only one to be thinking along those lines!! :ok:

Reading previous posts can usually give one some insight!

Cheers

Whirls

wwingrotor

23rd May 2008, 08:38

I have TT 700, MP/ME 500, IR, ATPL theory, JAA CPL(H)
Any chance for me finding work?

R1Tamer

23rd May 2008, 20:18

Well if we're all touting for business here's my ten penneth

JAA CPL(H) & SEIR(H) with ATPL(H) Theory & FAA CPL(H) & FAA IR(H) & FAA (CFI) and UB40. I'm expecting shortly to get an IVA a CRB and maybe I could top it off with an ASBO.

R1tamer

helimutt

25th May 2008, 09:54

Not many higher hours CPL's give much of a sh*t about the low time newbies because they've been there themselves. There are one or two about who will try to help out but hey, surely no-one said this was an easy career to break into with limited time and no money, or did they. Maybe due diligence wasn't carried out before even starting on this route.

Lets not have any more posts about newbies looking for work. I maybe did it in the past myself but knowing what I know now, get some flying experience by instructing etc, network, and most of all, don't whinge!!!!

oh, and if you haven't got the money then why start in the first place. Also, please don't work for free.:hmm:

:E

Paul_tail rotor_Wint

25th May 2008, 23:05

"Also, please don't work for free.:hmm:"

You don't work now flying for free, that's old school!
You pay them.Paying for fuel is how its done now with the competition to fly.

And no I haven't yet, I'll be getting another loan to become an Instructor.
Number 2, you don't need the money. Here i can get any sized loan "interest free".

Paul (CPL-H) TT: 164Hrs

helimutt

26th May 2008, 08:05

There's no harm in chasing a dream. I did it. Just be careful that those around you aren't badly affected by your singleminded determination to succeed. If you don't try it, you'll never know. I was prepared to take the risk if it all went pear shaped.
All you're doing is spending someone's money which you can't take with you when you die. You'll pay a lot more in taxes over a lifetime.

There will nearly always be a need for offshore pilots, for the near foreseeable future anyway. Think about what uses helicoters are put to. Will these be necessary/affordable in major recession? There'll always be those not affected by money issues who can afford to fly corporate but as it's generally a luxury it'll no doubt tail off a bit this year. The onshore boys will probably agree with that right now.
Cash strapped air ambulance/police forces might not be able to afford to run the heli's.
Instructors wil get less work as fewer people have any money to learn. The housing industry boom provided lots of people with surplus cash for ppl's/ self ownership etc. That must definitely be dryng up right now. Ask an instructor if things are quieter than this time last year.

Weigh up the pro's and con's. If you're 40yrs old, married with kids and a mortgage and looking for a career change, i'd advise strongly against it. If you're 20+, got the money to do it, no ties, then hey, why the hell not. Go have some fun trying.

S76driver

26th May 2008, 16:38

People have gone into the training with wife and kids and come out smiling, although you do need their strong support. I started my CPL training at 33 and managed to secure a job with less than 300 hours. My IR was paid for, and I was lucky enough to get 3 twin type ratings too. If you want it bad enough and are willing to put the network time in ( I went to Aberdeen twice to hand my CV over personally), the rewards are fantastic!! I love my job, but I don't call it a job, I get paid to fly. There's nothing like logging your first hours, knowing your getting paid, instead of putting your hand in your own pocket! Also, the people that think your mad for starting, watch their face when you succeed :ok:

helimutt

26th May 2008, 20:38

Seems the predictions are beginning to come true. :hmm:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=328511

Messerschmitt

1st Jul 2008, 21:52

Hello guys.
Since the job opportunities for low timers in Canada is at it's very worse I was wondering what are the job prospective in the EU for low timers.

AFAIK the minimum time required for a JAA licence is 155hrs with 50 PIC, so I would have to do an additional 50hrs of which 12 as PIC (since currently I have 105 hrs with 38 PIC) and do all the 12(?) exams for JAA correct? Also I am pretty sure an IFR rating would be mandatory for job opportunity.

I would like to ask the seniors working in EU what is the path I would need to follow to find a job in EU.
Also tips as the country in which to get the best hr/EUR, etc.

In case it's worth mentioning I would love to end up working in the North Sea or Air Ambulance but of course in the beginning willing to do anything necessary.

Thank you

madman1145

2nd Jul 2008, 09:19

Do you have a workpermit to work within the EU border ??
If not, it's a no go ..

- madman

HillerBee

2nd Jul 2008, 10:00

It's the same all over the World. No hours no job. However Canada is probably one of the best places, where you can start out as a 'hangar rat' and work your way up. And having said that is Canada there are plenty of jobs for 500 hour pilots, which wouldn't be the case in Europe. Obviously the licensing system in Europe requires you to have a JAA CPL(H) which would cost you deerly.

heli-mad

2nd Jul 2008, 10:07

....the thread..so you wanna be a helicopter pilot...gives the answer to your question.:ok:

It is the same everywhere, sometimes is who you know...

Good luck:)

Messerschmitt

4th Jul 2008, 00:48

Regarding first reply, yes I have a country citizenship who is part of EU therefore I am allowed to work in any EU country.

I have read posts regarding working in the north sea as a co-pilot, would achieving the required hours for the JAA licence + IR be enough to sign up with a company there?

Wage is irrelevant for me, as I really don't care until I will get myself some decent hours, but the question is, how exactly to break the ice in Europe? I have read the topics there Heli-Mad but as usual those are only general topics. It does not adress how to break the ice.

Canada is a no-go, as I have done 4 road trips totaling about 20k kms knocking on doors and nothing came up.

whack_job

4th Jul 2008, 04:01

Stay in Canada and don't give up.

Keep going on road trips as long as you can afford to, however, PICK YOUR TARGETS, don't waste your time going and seeing a company that moves drills or flights forest fires (one is a highly skilled task, the other has contract minimum experience as required by the different forest fire agencies)

Look for companies that operate pistons and maybe a jetranger or two.

whack_job

4th Jul 2008, 04:04

I forgot to mention PICK YOUR TIME OF THE YEAR, the first hiring peak is around FEB, MAR, then re peaks for fires at the start of MAY

Bubblecopter85

15th Feb 2009, 06:31

Hi,

I hope im not just adding the same question to the pot here.......

Recently left career to pursue the flying bug and my plan is as follows..........

Currently undergoing ATPL(H) doing distance learning from home. Self flying my way up to 155 hours to complete my CPL. Currently mainly in R22's, but am also in the middle of Jetbox rating. At the moment am planning on going straight into IR once I have done my CPL and ATPL(H) ground work.

If all goes according to plan it would put me on 250 hours (ish) with B206 and AS355 rating, approx 65 hours of which would be on turbines.

I'd really appreciate some feedback ref what my chances are of being employed with a mere 250 hours. I have asked around most people I know in the idnustry, however I'm never sure whether they're working me from the professional angle as they want my business.

Would it be better to scrap the IR in favour of spending a year or so trying to scrape some commercial hours together?

I'm only mid 20's and single so would ideally be looking offshore in the medium term. Just need to know the best way of getting there.

Any thoughts appreciated! :ok:

Camp Freddie

15th Feb 2009, 07:46

mr bubblecopter,

Would it be better to scrap the IR in favour of spending a year or so trying to scrape some commercial hours together?

that is a real bad plan, your chances of getting commercial hours are low.

either get your FI and build your hours/experience and do your IR further down the line, or take a greater risk and do your IR now and hope the offshore boys are hiring (but you need to be clear what you are going to do if they arent)

regards

CF

GoodGrief

15th Feb 2009, 08:01

I do not understand why the hell these 200 hours guys want to get into the offshore flying straight out of school.

Is it greed? Big money, or the fact that you have fewer working days than days off per year?

It is surely not for the love of helicopters or being interested in flying helicopters with all the things these machines can do.

[duck and cover]

Whirlygig

15th Feb 2009, 08:18

Because it is one of the few rotary jobs where low-houred / IR'd pilots can actually get a job; a job which will provide experience in order to be able to move on the the more interesting and diverse pilot roles.

Cheers

Whirls

MyTarget

15th Feb 2009, 09:06

Also a chance to get 600+ twin hours per year and earn high enough wages to pay off the huge loans taken out to get their CPL H IR...........

Droopystop

15th Feb 2009, 10:12

Mr Bubblecopter,

Admiable coming on here and asking around. Don't forget to ask around the potential employers (and I don't mean flying schools that do a bit of commercial on the side). Get the BHAB book and phone around the bigger companies. Talk to the hirers and firers.

windowseatplease

15th Feb 2009, 10:28

Also a chance to get 600+ twin hours per year and earn high enough wages to pay off the huge loans taken out to get their CPL H IR...........

Agreed. Also they look at what a cr*p deal instructors get (£20,000 pa and usually bugger all prospects/progression).

Oh, and some people just don't want to be instructors and all they've ever wanted to do is 'bus drive' on the north sea.

In an ideal world, low-time CPLs would be hired as onshore co-pilots, or do photo/survey flights, but that doesn't happen in the UK, and as said before, most of them have £30,000+ of debts to pay off.

S76driver

15th Feb 2009, 15:10

Offshore was my first commercial job with the bare minimum of hours and no IR...but hey, who else will pay for an IR, type you on some of the most popular workhorses around, pay you a good salary, give you more than enough time off a year, and not give you grief for flying when the weather is crap.

Beats any 9-5 job hands down...and I've been there!

As for the work, I love it, gaining invaluable experience from the captains, and landing on a small rig at night on weather minimums is quite a challenge for any pilot (in my opinion anyway).

Yes, some people will find it monotonous, and there are more glamorous and exciting jobs out there I'm sure, and maybe one day I will try something different but, for now, I love helicopters and I love my job, go for it.

JimbosJet

10th Mar 2009, 21:21

Another what if scenario I'm afraid please bare with me...

I'm a JAA ATPL(A) holder with 4600 total, 4300 jet airline pilot with 450 hrs command experience 737. 33 yrs old and am currently unemployed thanks to the economic crisis.

I've always had an interest in helis and now that I have some considerable time off I wonder if it maybe an ideal time to take the plunge and use the time to get more qualified. I figure the FW job industry is pretty crap atm and is unlikely to pick up for at least a year. I have another reason to go down the heli route which I wont go into here but does provide an extra incentive lifestyle wise (and no its not a job offer or contact!)

So from this thread I gather I will need to do 105 hrs hrs building, 30 hrs CPL(H) and a turbine transition (10hrs??)

Is that correct?
How about ground exams, what subjects will I have to do?
Roughly how long/much is this likely to cost (in Europe) (I appreciate thats a length of string question, but roughly)
Does my FW IR count or do I have to do a Rotary IR?
Will my background and FW hrs count for much when it comes to trying to get an Offshore job?
Whats the general feeling on tiltrotor aircraft in Europe, are they going to be adopted by operators?

I'm not looking to tread on anyones toes, so no PPRUNE style warfare please, just sound advice if you can muster it, many thanks.

<PS edit> What's a typical roster pattern for offshore flying and can anyone suggest names of commercial heli operators in Norway (I have a few, just wondered if there were any more)?

JimbosJet

11th Mar 2009, 10:43

bump - anyone willing to comment please?

bleepup

11th Mar 2009, 10:52

I think you will find all your answers in LASORS....haven't been down this route so i wouldn't know good luck.

TeeS

11th Mar 2009, 11:10

Hi JJ, sorry but I am not much help on the specific requirements that you will have to meet, only Lasors (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=175&pagetype=68&gid=780), CAA or wiser members of Pprune can answer those for you.

We have recently seen a few very experienced airline guys join us (though they did have previous helicopter experience.) It is recognised that they bring with them a huge amount of ‘modern’ procedural flying knowledge and experience that we are keen to tap into.

Can you give us a clue as to what part of the UK you are in?

Cheers

TeeS

Trochilidae

29th Jul 2009, 09:41

I've read and heared it over and over now;

Sorry not recruiting, sorry not qualified enough, sorry to low on hrs, sorry eyes aren't in company colours... :mad:whatever, you get where I'm going.

As a newby to the commercial helicopterindustry, low on hrs but with Cpl and IR it's next to impossible to find a job to jumpstart my flying career.

With my main goal in hindsight "Offshore" and limited funds what's the best way to go about? I would like to know how I can best pimp my CV for when these lean times come to an end.

Should I invest in a twin rating which pretty much is limited by the depth of my pockets and if yes which type?Or just any?
Or am I better off investing in MCC, HUET, First aid and whatever other courses that are recuired?
Increasing my hrs? Also an option but are the operators impressed with an additional 60 hrs SE piston or 20 SE turbine?:confused:

Any helpfull advice would be greatly appreciated.

Regards, Troch

HillerBee

29th Jul 2009, 10:44

Investing in a Twin Rating is not very usefull, read the story about our ex-military guys with 2200 hours IR and twin rating who can't find a job.

In the current economic climate nothing works I'm afraid, there are simply not enough jobs. There's an abundance of experienced pilots so basically you can't do anything. The only thing you can possible do is get a FI rating and get your hours up that way, but then again the flight training industry isn't exactly booming either. I know it doesn't help but it is all there is to say really.

ShyTorque

29th Jul 2009, 12:16

Or am I better off investing in MCC, HUET, First aid and whatever other courses that are recuired?

Troch, I wouldn't buy a course with an expiry date; an expired course attendance certificate means little to a potential employer. They will send an employee on the required courses and offset the cost as a business expense.

At least flown hours stay in your logbook forever.

S76driver

29th Jul 2009, 14:41

Trochilidae (http://www.pprune.org/members/275749-trochilidae)

What IR do you have if no twin rating? Was it done on the 206.

If offshore was your objective, have you been and visited the 3 companies or do you just post/email your CV. If you havn't then maybe you could organise a trip and see them all, and personally hand them your CV, it stands you out from the rest. I heard that one of them was looking for pilots, and with an IR you are much better placed than I was.

Hope things turn out okay for you and never give up.

Trochilidae

30th Jul 2009, 08:58

Thanks for the input guys.

Although not much wiser it does kick-start the thinking process again.:ok:

Troch

7heaven

26th Oct 2009, 16:08

hi all,
many thats to heli, lots of info but i need more if possible.
I love flying blah blah blah, and been going on different websites, schools, forums etc for the past 3 years (yes, many many many hours of reading,) i got used to the different names, initials etc too.

I have £110000 to spend on training, to do ppl, cpl/atpl, ir, type etc.(sorry to all the pilots about this, i know you shouldn't pay for the ratings and hours or doing it for free. i also know that the jobs should got to the more experienced pilots too).:(:{
( i only have 1 hour in helicopter and one in fixed wing and love more rotary side).
Simple question without making too many people offended :zzz: is

Which one (if any) should i do to obtain a job that pays over £20000+ in UK/Europe in this recession once i obtain all the ratings?
chances of work if i did do 250 hours with a IR and type etc?

I have no family to support and willing to go anywhere? I know some schools offering work after training with them but i'm very sceptical about this.:=

I don't fancy investing this money in a business (done that), just want a new career.
Any info would be brill, cheers

7heaven

dragman

28th Oct 2009, 20:22

If there were no jobs for doctors, I bet people would still go to med school.

Riddo

15th Jan 2010, 19:48

Looking for replies from pilots / recruiters who are currently working or recently employed in IRL or U.K. in heli or fixed wing..:ok:
Please, I know the situation is **** for employment now so no need to tell me to stay at my present job forever!!!! Don’t need to much negativity cheers..:ugh:

Quick background: 32 yo mechanical engineer based in Ireland.
I am working now earning 52K euros, and planning to start training to become a pilot in the U.K. and Irl. Calculated to have 35k debt when done in <3yrs.
@ Heli 115,000 euros to get trained. Up to CPL/IR TT 250
@Plank 100,000 euros ready to apply for Ryanair (incl t rating 35k) TT 250

Outcome: **** all jobs at the moment yea, it will take me approx 2.5-3 yrs to be done.
Not sure which to fly, favourite is Heli but not much work in Irl.Most Irish heli's at Grand Canyon now. SAR work possibly, heard there were 5 or so qualified pilots with IR turning up at gate every week to seek work, a lot of ex RAF guys there too lots of competition to get in. Before I can apply need to log hours in North shore.
What is the situation now re N.S. I presume lots of pilots applying there too, chances in 2/3 yrs??? (Saw post re CHC requirements.)

Ryanair main employer in Irl, Aerlingus goosed, lots of pilots from Aerlingus with hrs looking for work- no shortage! O’Leary’s dubious re order for 200 hundred 800N.G's is uncertain...
Don't mind moving abroad for 1-2 yrs will probably have too..
Anyone please?

Droopystop

15th Jan 2010, 20:47

Sorry but the best advice at the moment is don't give up the day job, get a ppl, see how you like it. Do your own research on the job markets - don't ask here - go to the horses mouth.

If a non flyer were to read your post, they would be :ugh: the numbers simply don't add up. But since I am an aviator, I understand the dilema.

rabidcat

18th Jun 2010, 01:03

This is a fairly simple/general question:

I understand it is very difficult for the beginner copter pilot to land a job in the industry if they don't get hired by the school they trained for. Is this fact or fiction, maybe a bit of both?

I was thinking, if I didn't land a job, after all of this time and effort and investment, what would I do? All I can come up with is to join the military and hope they let me fly a copter. I am not sure I will ever be cut out to be an instructor anyhow, so I have been looking for alternatives, and the options looks grim so far. What do you guys say?

timex

18th Jun 2010, 02:42

I've no idea about the civil side of Rotary flying tbh, but from what I've seen jobs are few and far between. As to the Military, even if you have got a flying license of some sort this doesn't mean you are certain of a flying job should you join. Looks like you'll have some fairly serious decision's to make
, Good luck.

paco

18th Jun 2010, 04:49

If we knew the answers to that one, we'd all be millionaires! It's hard for any beginners to get a job in any industry - try being a junior lawyer!

All you can do is what you feel inside. Do you wake up in the morning eating sleeping and drinking helicopters? Then do something about it! This is the sort of thing that is not dealt with by thinking. If destiny rules that you are going to end up flying helicopters, then it will happen despite the opposition.

If it's any help at the moment, yes, jobs are relatively scarce, but almost any Chief Pilot will tell you that the quality isn't there. You need to add to your employability in some way - one tip we give all our students is to learn a language, preferably Spanish. The firemen on the ground will not be speaking Aviation English!

Phil

Smike

18th Jun 2010, 12:18

Tell them to learn some catalan aswell, might need it to work in the North East!!

Cheers!

rabidcat

18th Jun 2010, 21:34

How in God's name does one learn aviation spanish or Catalan for that matter? Seriously...

I have given some consideration to going in to a law enforcement field as well and maybe pursuing a GIS degree (which would def come after landing the first job). Law enforcement, I know I would have to put in a couple years as a beat cop probably, but I could pursue either a GIS degree during that time, or maybe spend some time at Bell taking a few of those $3-4000 5 day courses learning their turbines. The GIS degree I was hoping would give me an edge in to the fire fighting/survey/long line sort of job. Not sure if a handful of turbine hours would help keep me proficient and give me an edge in to flying a law enforcement copter or not...

A wise instructor, who is having the same employment issue, once told me that if you want to go the military route, you have to be willing to be a soldier first and foremost, and a pilot second. Military is my last choice because I simply don't want that much structure and a tied in commitement. I eat, sleep, and drink helicopters 24/7 and I want to be a pilot for the travel and experience and the flexibility. The military doesn't sound like my cup of tea, especially with no guarantee of flying no matter what certs you hold.

Just thinking out loud, but would love some feedback. Thanks

Phil77

18th Jun 2010, 23:25

How in God's name does one learn aviation spanish or Catalan for that matter? Seriously...Don't ask for advise if you might not like the answer! :ugh:

He didn't say "aviation" spanish, just spanish (or any other language); not a bad recommendation if you want to work somewhere else than the US or England I suppose. I think besides "have luck" or "have money" that is a doable/cheap idea.

BTW: nobody is gonna hire you because you spend 5k at Bell school, because those +/-10 hours flight time don't make a difference (not that you won't learn anything, it just doesn't make a big difference if you have 0 or 10 hours turbine time). ...and somehow I doubt that it makes a difference for a police job if you have a GIS degree (what firefighter/longliner/survey needs a GIS degree?). Again, won't hurt, but since they mostly hire from within* it doesn't matter (and the others don't hire newbies).

*except for my buddy in Wales - but he had sooo much luck getting the police job he had envisioned before he started flight school... and that brings us back to the first paragraph.

newfieboy

19th Jun 2010, 01:39

Got to agree with Phil. I;m a longline pilot and firefighting pilot, got lots of time doing it, but no GIS degree, no Bell 10hr course, just a lot of real world field experience, and hard work. I;m also expat Brit, but get to fly fires and drills in many places, mmmm.... wonder why, cos I picked up on the language, go figure

Don;t kid yourself, a 10hr turbine course at Bell or a GIS degree isn;t gonna buy you a seat in this industry. Right time at the right place and alot of hard work, and getting down and dirty, maybe if your lucky.....:ugh: Good luck anyways.

rabidcat

19th Jun 2010, 03:36

I didn't figure a handful of hours in turbines with Bell was going to get me in anywhere, just thought it may look interesting on a resume. Maybe like, "hey this guy is really trying..." I dunno...

The reason for the turbine time was more because it would be fun and interesting, although a silly expensive way to keep the knowledge and skills up (taking $4k worth of a turbine class for a few hours). I am trying to anticipate a time when there is this large gap between training and actually landing a job as a copter pilot. Let's face it, I am grasping at straws here and not sure instructor is my kinda gig. :ouch:

Ah and the GIS degree rationale. The way I worded that was sort of bad. I know you don't need or even really use any kinda GIS degree for firefighting. I have merely heard that some of the work that crosses with firefighting and such can utilize a GIS degree, but it is not obviously a prereq. Surveying and the seismic stuff etc, the way i understand it, can be a stepping stone in to the fire fighting career. Mayhaps I am mistaken... Trying to figure out what can give me an edge.

I speak some spanglish, would definitely have to brush up.

Thanks for the input.

Lala Steady

19th Jun 2010, 06:27

Learning to stop calling it a 'copter' will help also:)

rabidcat

19th Jun 2010, 07:16

My bad, H-E-L-I-C-O-P-T-E-R as if everyone and their grandma didn't know what I meant. We good now?:ok:

Searlesie

4th Aug 2010, 13:06

Hello all,

I've not long passed my CPL (H) rated on the R22, R44 and B206. Any tips from current CPL's on how to find work? It's very difficult at the moment and I know almost all pilots have been there at sometime or another.

Many thanks all!!

boxhacker

12th Aug 2011, 21:21

I have always wanted to become a Helicopter Pilot/Airline Rotary, but when i was 16 i couldn't wait to leave school so i decided to get a trade behind me first so i could always have something to fall back on.

Now i have matured massively and thrive on learning new skills. But basically i am bored with my current job and wish to chase my dream.

My Problem is my current CV;

Left School with the following GCSE's

English C
Maths C
Double Science C
It B
French D

NVQ Level 3 Advanced Crafts....... Carpenter & Joiner

Worked for my current employer for 10 Years (7 years Qualified)

Is There any hope for me? I would like to say that whatever it is that i do, i do strieve for perfection and a challenge does excite me and push me.

I am going to a local flying school Seminar Tomorrow, Can anybody give me a definitive answer to will it be worth investing £80k Plus Which i don't have. Is their definitely jobs out their for low hour pilots if i want them bad enough?

Please just a simpleish answer

Regards

Clark

gulliBell

12th Aug 2011, 21:44

My only advice is if you can't afford to pay for the flying lessons, don't proceed until you've saved the money. Certainly don't rely on the assumption you'll get a well paying job flying helicopters shorty after qualifying and you'll be able to afford to pay off a loan, because the reality will probably be different. But once you are financially secure then sure, follow your dream. There's nothing stopping you succeeding with the right motivation and the financial resources behind you.

ec155mech

12th Aug 2011, 21:50

will it be worth it you ask ? isnt following your dreams always ?

on the jobs. well right now it doesnt look to good, lots of people are struggling to find jobs straight after completing their ATPL/CPL. some get lucky.

dont think you should worry to much about your current cv. and if/when you start flying start building that lasting network of people that can help you get a job. and get advice from obviously.

further more there are several ways of achieving your dream. integrated ( which is from zero to hero plan ) or modular, where you do it in bits ( I am currently reading towards my own atpl )

how you want to do it, depends on : how much money you wish to wave goodbye to. time frame, ect ect.

piece of advice though. get the class 1 done before you throw loads of money into lessons, gear and books. just so you dont get a nasty surprise after spending the first 10-12k £

boxhacker

12th Aug 2011, 21:59

Many thanks guys,

gullibell, im 24, would it not be best to start training asap, as to save the sort of money that i would need to fly would take a lifetime?

Secondly, does anybody know if flyheli midlands are a good training school?

thanks

Flingingwings

12th Aug 2011, 22:33

It's not just the newly qualified. Lots of people with 2000+ hours are also struggling to find work.

Whirlygig

13th Aug 2011, 06:54

would it not be best to start training asapDepends on your time scale but now would be a good time to get your PPL. Then, assuming you get a Class 1 medical, you start hour building and studying at your leisure, all the while taking stock of the job market and opportunities. Once you have the required hours for a CPL course, you can embark on that and then decide which route you want to take i.e. FI or IR or ME or both/all.

You have time on your side, there's no rush as the job market is very slack just now.

Cheers

Whirls

Captain-Beanie

13th Aug 2011, 08:03

Hey, at risk of being shot, can any one give me a rough idea of what the air ambulance are requiring in hours and experience these days? Just looking for a ball park figure! :O

Flingingwings

13th Aug 2011, 13:18

I'd reckon at a minimum 2000TT and 50-100 twin. If a combined police/HEMS a/c that operates at night I'd also expect 50-100 night too. London HEMS also require an IR (as do some others)

Some exceptions to the 'rule' possibly. For a better indication, perhaps contact the companies that supply HEMS pilots and ask directly (Bond,SAS etc etc)

Captain-Beanie

13th Aug 2011, 14:46

Thanks Flingingwings, exactly the info I was looking for! :ok:

Cheers, CB

Old and Horrified

13th Aug 2011, 21:14

Some companies that offer both training and charter have, in the past, offered a limited amount of initial work as a quid pro quo for paying them for your CPL training and hours building. It won't be much, but it would help. PM me if you want a suggestion of where to look.

The Nr Fairy

14th Aug 2011, 07:17

Old and Horrified:

It *is* a great position to be in if there is limited initial work available. But the newly inked CPL(H) needs to make sure that the work offered is a) well within their experience constraints, b) there's a valid and rigorous supervisory regime and c) that they investigate any insurance requirements and agreements in place before they take up offers of such work.

If not, that newly qualified CPL(H) will have a higher likelihood of ending up in a place where they shouldn't be with their limited hours.

Old and Horrified

14th Aug 2011, 08:48

Nr Fairy:

I quite agree. I am taking about an AOC operation with appropriate insurance and pilot competency check procedures.

Any 200 hour CPL(H) should be able to cope with taking clients to the race course or doing pleasure flights at a county show without problem. Not too many hours, buts lots of valuable experience and keeps your license current while waiting for the (hopefully) upturn.

The Nr Fairy

14th Aug 2011, 17:42

Glad to see that. But even "reputable" AOC operations can bite - hence the caution I would exercise (with unfortunate hindsight) in making sure every job a young CPL went on is checked and authed by the CP, and written agreement before any work is done as to the insurance and employment status of the individual. If things go wrong the first people to walk away will be the people who asked the person concerned to do the job.

Old and Horrified

15th Aug 2011, 12:37

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. What's the point of a CPL if he can't even be trusted to fly from one authorised landing field to another, and make sensible decisions about the weather? The last time I looked, there were not very many co-pilot vacancies out there so what else do you suggest?

I'm not sure where the comment "very little P1 time" comes from. Most 200 hour CPL pilots would probably have about half of that as P1 during the hours building phase.

I speak from experience having part funded my son on his CPL(H) course, and having sat with him on most of his hours building. Thoroughly enjoyable it was to!

Pandalet

31st Aug 2011, 15:13

If a CPL holder has only experienced training environment stuff, to the point where they "can count the number of off-airfield landings they have done on one hand", does becoming a baby instructor really help that much? You get some more training, specifically aimed at how infant pilots will try to kill you, and I bet your reaction times and awareness improve, but you're not really adding new experiences, right? You're still mostly flogging around the circuit and local area, only now you're (nervously) watching someone else do some of the flying.

Just sayin'...

hands_on123

31st Aug 2011, 15:31

Partly true, but being an instructor forces you to take decisions on the weather, how to teach a manouvre, etc, it gives you much more confidence at flying.

Sure, the first 200 hours of teaching are pretty nerve-wracking, but once you pass that you cease to be 'all over the controls' and constantly nervous, and you soon tire of the local area and are desparate to explore other areas.

I think being an instructor is a great 'grounding' for a flying career, you learn lots about flying and lots about the industry.

MartinCh

1st Sep 2011, 17:56

I am willing to bet most fresh CPL holders can count the number of off-airfield landings they have done on one hand.

True, it's often school's policy to 'mitigate' risks. I've done handful of tight off-airports/confines with my instructor or two recent months and I could have done much more. That's all in R22 as well, so often not great power margin at almost max gross. I guess it's even worse in the UK.

I'm like, Hey I want to do couple more autos or running landings/whatever for the checkride/LST, then instructor replying I'm fine on that, let's do some off-airports.. :-) he's also tired of staying on the field most of time..

bigglesbutler

2nd Sep 2011, 07:42

Just in case its of use, Bristow are recruiting and you should go to:

Bristow (http://www.bristowgroup.com/careers/positions.php)

It doesn't say what fleet but it's ABZ based and you "need" a CPL with an IR.

Good luck

Si

Suchyy

21st Jan 2012, 23:00

Hi everybody,

I'm writing here hoping that you can have some valuable information and who if not you will be even able to understand me.

A little background so that you all can understand my concerns properly.

So here I'm a student at a small Polish community college in God forsaken place. I'm majoring in Mechanical Engineering with Helicopter Pilot Studies Program. You may ask who is paying for my Pilot Studies Program? Well, Polish Government is. I'm doing BEng and right now I'm on 2 year out of 4 I need to complete in order to get the BEng Diploma.

When I was going through recruitment phase, which taken place right after finishing my 1st year, I was given a choice between frozen ATPL(A) and CPL(H)/IR Pilot Studies Program. I've chosen CPL(H)/IR. But my problem is a little bit more complicated than that. Right now, due to some problems with money - I'm only a student so what can I know what is really happening - however, we were told that we wouldn't be given CPL(H)/IR but only CPL(H) with 135hrs.

Getting to the bottom of my problem. Given the situation I'm in I have only 2 choices. First is to continue my CPL(H) program and hope there will be someone who would like to employ helicopter pilot with so little experience or switch to ATPL(A) program and then worry about getting a job. What would you do in my situation? Is there even slightest possibility that somebody would actually hire somebody with only CPL(H) and 135hrs of experience?

My dream is to work as a pilot on oil/gas rigs. On one hand I know that everything is possible but on the other hand is it possible to get a job like that without IR? \

I must say that I can't afford to get an IR by myself. That is a reason why I'm studying in God forsaken place instead of being enrolled in best possible university in place like Warsaw or Cracow...

carsickpuppy

22nd Jan 2012, 02:05

Suchyy,

If those are your only choices, I suggest the ATPL (A) route. I'm guessing there will be more jobs available to you than if you go CPL (H). Once you tire of fixed wing and make a bit of money, go for your Rotary.
What is the job outlook for you with ATPL (A)?
Perhaps a career counselor at your facility could help with placement?

Besides it will be much nicer flying into a decent city and airport than in God forsaken placewhere a lot of helicopters are based :}

Suchyy

22nd Jan 2012, 09:48

casrsickpuppy,

what I meant was that my college isn't the best or the finest... It is not challenging for me at all. I'm just bored here. Well, there isn't any career counselor here and I really don't mind living in place like this. I know I'm young and you could felt like I'm moaning about the place. I complaining about the education in my college and strictly academic way, not pilot studies program which is quite good here.

You are suggesting ATPL(A)? Why? Easier to get a job or is there another reason?
Now you may fell like the only thing I'm trying to do is making money, lots of it, but it's not true. Flying is my passion. I'm asking about job prospects because I know how expensive is to keep your ratings valid and also I would like to finally settle down and have my own family. Money is not that important for me. But having the job itself is.

MartinCh

22nd Jan 2012, 11:54

the 135hrs would be for heli course as 'integrated' I believe. Check FCL regs.

Well, you're moaning if you should get funded airplane or heli training?
Not many 'Westerners' who get their CPL(H) funded.

True, most jobs would be as instructor, for which you need another 100+ hours helicopter time, in Europe, but you'd have your theory done, 'free training', etc.

Go to UK or Ireland and save up rest of cash. Most easy to get jobs are already taken by, ehrm, Polish, though.

On the other hand, it's relatively easier to get low time job in Poland as Polish national, from what I've read in other section of pprune. Starting out in heli industry is a pain in many countries. Not just time, money, effort, but then being licensed without job.

Suchyy

22nd Jan 2012, 14:42

MartinCh,

Thanks a lot for breaking it up for me. It was moaning a little bit about which one should I be stuck with, true. You are right I shouldn't be.

Another 100+ hrs? That's sounds like a lot. How expensive can it be in the UK? You are right that there can be some low time jobs available in Poland, I will look into that.

How would my job prospects look like if I complete IR rating in addition to my CPL(H)? Will it change a lot?

I'm sorry if you feel offended in anyway. I didn't mean it that way. I'm asking many questions because I think you guys are the best source of information I have.

MartinCh

22nd Jan 2012, 16:29

well, just do more research. plenty stuff in the 'stickies' and other threads. use search.

European IR is not cheap, even single engine.
very limited jobs with just fresh CPL, honestly. It's due to insurance and fact that you don't have that much experience with few hundred hours.
Just look at the recent R44 crashes in Brazil. Totally avoidable. Anyone with 500hrs total heli in Brazil would go and fly to oil righs as copilot for pretty good money. Those flying piston in Brazil are either owners or low time charter chaps. I presume so.

Well, JAR/EASA FCL dictates 300TT heli to START FI rating. Some countries like Sweden, UK, Romania, Switzerland etc, adopted 250hrs as 'happy compromise' to make things easier. So it's not easy/cheap to get there after all the training if self funded. So go for it and keep saving. Try to get as much R44 time as possible, not just R22.

I don't know Polish job market, but you may want to check options as copilot on larget stuff, with whatever minimum training sponsored by company.
That's enough for now. You have to do your research.

Suchyy

22nd Jan 2012, 16:42

Thanks for all information you provided.

It looks like it will be very long and bumpy road but in the long run it will bring me to my goals.

So now I going to make some research of my own.

Regards!

carsickpuppy

23rd Jan 2012, 03:46

Suchyy,

I suggested ATPL (A) because it may provide you a job a bit quicker than CHPL and since most of us are not financially independent, that is the main goal..to provide for yourself and family.

If your government is paying for one or the other, why not Airplanes? Just due to the fact that there are more Airplanes than Helicopters in the world your job prospects statistically would be better, especially if no IR on your heli license. Once you've done a few/several years as fixed-wing pilot go for the Rotary license, at least you'll have your fixed-wing license to fall back on if the heli-industry hits rough times.

Look into the job market where you can work legally and determine which segment has more likelihood of employing you in that first job... i.e. check with the flight schools, because likely your first job will be as FI.

How about your nation's military? They may be willing to train you for flying their helicopters for a several year commitment.

I do not intend to steer you away from helicopters, by all means if that is what you want to do, go for it... just looking at it pragmatically, that's my two cents.

Good luck

Pandalet

23rd Jan 2012, 08:38

I have no idea what the local prospects for helicopter pilots is in Poland (perhaps go talk to some local operators?), but if you want to fly offshore, you need an IR. A multi-engine IR costs around £35k - £40k (or more), depending on where you go and how jacked up you are. There are basically no jobs for 135-hour CPLs in the UK, and I don't believe most of the rest of Europe is much different, so you either need an instructors rating (which requires another 100 hours before you start) or an IR. The offshore companies are hiring 200-hour baby pilots, but only with IRs.

Ultimately, if you want to fly helicopters, then you should do the CPL(H). If you don't really care what you fly, so long as you get to fly, then go ATPL(A), as the initial job prospects _MAY_ be better. You're already doing much better than most in Western Europe, getting to CPL(H) level without spending any of your own money - most of us need to find £85k+ to get to CPL(H)/IR!

Droopystop

23rd Jan 2012, 09:10

Suchyy,

If you want to go helicopter, go helicopter. But your BEng will be far more valuable to you. Focus on that, get a job in the oil industry as an engineer and after 5 or 6 years you will have a fall back career and enough money to get that IR.

Thomas coupling

23rd Jan 2012, 14:07

Suchyy: You are a very very lucky young man. In 2 years you will walk away with a Beng AND a commercial helicopter licence:D That is something most young men dream of!
I concur with Droopystop, the Beng qualification will make your way in life by getting you a good job. It will then pay for you to stay current with your helo licence and also eventually pay for upgrading it to an IR. Without an IR your options are limited but NOT closed. When the time comes you can then decide to convert fully to aviation as a pilot or stay in engineering and fly part time.
I have a colleague who recently did his CPL(H) and then pursuaded BOND to take him on for an IR. They paid him a full salary, deducted the cost of the IR and he became an oil rig co-pilot in 2 years. He has never looked back.
You will already have your CPL(H) free!!!
There are other threads on this site that show the cheapest way to go for an IR (Denmark I think???), have a look round. Pprune will feed you enormous amounts of excellent information and experience - enjoy.:ok:

Big Duke 6

3rd Feb 2012, 13:20

I have heard from different sources that one of the main heli companies in Aberdeen are only accepting first timers who have either 500+ TT Multi engine time and JAA IR , or canidates who have TRAINED at Bristow academy. Will the other operators follow suit , i suspect. Just spreading the word !!

Bravo73

3rd Feb 2012, 16:09

How very perceptive of you, Big Duke 6. :rolleyes: This page of the long running 'Rotary Jobs' thread explains why: http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/353543-rotary-jobs-53.html (The short answer is 'OGP').

Big Duke 6

4th Feb 2012, 14:59

Thanks Bravo,

This was disappointing news for my friend a recent I.R. graduate who never heard a word about it until recently. He would of went the Bristow route.
Now i have that option to throw wads of money at them, for the love of flying !!:ugh:

Goodluck

helops

4th Feb 2012, 16:23

"for the love of flying"

that's not flying - in a twin IFR autopilot machine - it's so boring, especially when you have to spend over 40k for an IR.

Sling load operations, fire fighting, rescue ops in a AS350 or LAMA in mountain environment - that is what I call FLYING !!!

Bravo73

4th Feb 2012, 18:24

Agreed, UK offshore flying is NOT "flying", it's like comparing "driving" to operating the Park and Ride bus around Bluewater.

Hmmm, done lots of offshore flying around the UK have you, swapshop? :rolleyes:

hobomike

4th Feb 2012, 20:38

I am a uk citizen and I will shortly be qualified under FAA to CFII and under JAR to FI (hopefully IR within a year or two). I potentially have a job as an instructor in the states which should take me from the 2-300 hours mark to about 1000hrs. Hopefully this should make me quite flexible and employabe. I'm happy to pay my dues as an instructor but i've got no interest in flying R22's much past 1000hrs (or when i get my us atpl). My question to any pilots out there is where in the world is a good place to work (or **** places with good jobs!), who's hiring and what sort of jobs can i apply for both now and in the near future. I'm single, i dont mind moving to dodgy countries and i dont mind offshore work.

would also like to hear about anybody's general experiences and opinions on being a jobbing heli pilot.

Cheers!

Mike.

HillerBee

4th Feb 2012, 21:45

Get the 1000 hours first and then ask the same question. You have to pay your dues first, and that's harder than you think. Oh and by the way a 1000 isn't really going to cut it 2000-2500 is what you need, and even then you still need to work hard.

hammerhead70

4th Feb 2012, 21:53

@ hobomike

You don't mind the offshore work, eh? Well that's good! Hopefully you don't mind the work that comes before that neither.

FYI, to qualify for the FAA ATPL the aeronautical experience requirements are:

1,200 hours total time as a pilot of which 200 hours are in helicopters, including 75 hours PIC
500 hours cross-country flight time which must be longer than 25nm in a helicopter or 50nm in a fixed-wing
100 hours night flight time of which 15 hours are in helicopters. The night time must be unaided (without the use of NVG)
75 hours of instrument flight time of which 25 hours are in helicopters, and not more than 25 hours are in a simulator

I know how much your butt hurts after all that in R22's cause I did it.

Too bad your flight school doesn't provide reality checks! Did they show you some nice pictures and the success stories?
I suggest that before you even start thinking about jobs in the offshore part of our industry, you actually get your CFII. Then you should actually get hired as a CFI, and then you better not crash during your first 1000 hours.

Here's an example of the requirements for one of the more recent offshore co-pilots jobs:

Current CPL(H)
AW139 Type Rating
Class One Medical
Min 1000 hours total time
Min 100 hours on type
Min 20 hours night flight
Min 20 hours instrument

Oh pardon me, of course you are going for the captain position right away. Here we go:

Current ATPL (H)
Sikorsky 92 Type Rating
3000 hours pilot in command on rotorcraft,
1500 hours in medium/heavy rotorcraft category
1500 hours pilot in command on multi-engine helicopters
250 hours instrument flight time
Search and Rescue background

Good luck to you ... and I mean that!

Btw … most of us consider ourselves professional helicopter pilots rather than jobbing heli pilots.

hobomike

4th Feb 2012, 22:48

steady!

I thought i made it clear i dont mind working hard to acheive an offshore position. Believe me I'm not well off and the 200hrs i have have come hard enough! I'm trying to make a plan for my future and i didnt mean to give the impression that i was getting ahead of myself.
I'm well aware of the atplh hours requirements, the FAA atpl is pretty acheivable compared to the JAA licence. What i want to know is where do I go from there.
please dont think i'm some sucker with his head in the clouds, like you said, you did it, so i can too.

thanks for the advice.

newfieboy

4th Feb 2012, 23:30

Hobomike,

I'm from the UK originally....got over 12500hrs rotary, mostly on longline and fires. The first 1000hrs are the hardest to come by, but the next couple thou, Mmmmm a 1000hrs doesn't make you a great pilot, staying alive and passing PPC's annually as an operational pilot does. Apples/oranges comes to mind, yes a 1000hrs in a Robbie instructing, will give you some hands on, but come the operational world of utility, offshore etc, whole new game to learn. Don't think for a minute that reaching the 1000hr mark as a CFII will earn ya bum a seat...........:= She's a hard slog my friend.........:ok:

hammerhead70

5th Feb 2012, 00:23

Fair enough ... just checking! Like I said, I started on R22’s as well and throughout my career I have flown a variety of different operations ranging from flight instruction over photo ops to vip, external load, seismic, mining, heliskiing and heavy / ifr offshore operations. Every one of them has its challenges with ifr offshore being one of the more challenging and difficult to get into. Mainly due to the specific minimum requirements I posted before, hence my cynical response to your post. Always keep in mind that you are competing against hundreds of other guys just like yourself, against ex-military pilots who usually have a lot of multi-engine ifr experience and also against pilots that are already well established in the business. An ifr offshore job doesn’t just fall into your lap.
Here’s some reading material for you:

The following is an excerpt from a post on the **** Forum that not only attempts to answer this question, but actually fits nicely into the category of “12 things that every future career minded helicopter pilot should know.” They are really just some rough (and rawly written) rules to live by in the helicopter business. Glean from them what you would like.
The post went on to say:
You can expect to accomplish whatever it is that you desire. Your question really has the answer...or at least part of it. You used the word "expect". Well let me ask you a question.....what are your expectations? What exactly do you think you want? (Mark my words, what you say you think you want today is not what you will end up wanting or getting!)

So, what do you want? Money? To fly a certain Aircraft? Stability? Travel? Fly a certain mission....logging , EMS , corporate , SAR , ENG , combat? Be specific.

I say this....I do not care what you want to do.....no matter how impossible it may seem or how impossible the naysayers say it is......YOU CAN DO, AND HAVE ANYTHING YOU WANT FROM THIS BUSINESS. That is a fact my friend. Do not let anyone tell you that because you begin flying an R22 that there is no way you will ever Captain a B412 EMS or a B430 Corporate or a BV107 slinging logs in some far way land or in an S76 screaming down an ILS to minimums somewhere in NYC. It can be done; all it takes is some patience, persistence, and a little knowledge.
Here are some very simple commons sense ingredients that will create your recipe for success:

1. Be humble everywhere you go....no one likes a bragger. Let your skill and actions speak for you, not so much your mouth.

2. Always learn from the mistakes of others and always be willing to admit when you make a mistake and learn from it. Nobody likes a hardhead know-it-all.

3. Never stop going to school or seeking continuing education. Keep striving for every rating...every seminar....more college.....recurrent training. It is all about development in both your career and personal life. Some guys have 30 years of experience, but have lived the same year 30 times. Keep striving for more.

4. Project a positive attitude wherever you go. I should make this #1 on this list. Ask any employer...attitude is at the top of everyone's list. I would rather work with a person that has a positive attitude and still has a few things to learn than a person that really knows everything but their attitude stinks. Bad attitudes are infectious and can tear up an operation. This single attribute WILL get you further along in this business that any other.

5. Work hard and always give a little more than expected.

6. Be honest with yourself and everyone around you. If you screw up and think you had a hot start...admit it. Do not lie about anything....if you do it will come around and bite your butt and word will be out that you are a liar. Having a reputation for being an honest guy that has made a mistake will not keep you from getting a job. Having a reputation of being a LIAR will keep you from getting a job.

7. Network , network , network.

8. DO NOT BURN BRIDGES....unless it is unavoidable. This is a very small industry and everyone talks....ESPECIALLY the Directors of Operations. They have an unwritten code regarding these things. A good Chief Pilot once said to me, the guy whose toes you are stepping on today, may be the guy whose butt you are kissing tomorrow. Sad but so true!

9. Always, always remember...YOUR career is built upon YOUR reputation. In most cases, how you are to be perceived in this business rests on your shoulders. The piloting aspect is not what causes most problems for pilots. That part is easy for most of us. The problems usually come when the pilot has to speak or interact with coworkers or supervisors. All I can say is this (from a man standpoint)....when presented with a situation....think with your BRAINS and not your BALLS first, AND THEN speak. You ever hear the phrase..."don't cut off your nose to spite your face?" Most of us have, but take ego + type A + pride + testosterone - a few brain cells and that phrase gets erased from memory and something real stupid happens. BOTTOM LINE: No matter where you go in this business, you must learn, understand, master, and play the GAME!

10. SEEK out opportunities and when they do present themselves, JUMP on them with both feet and do not look back.

11. Never forget where you came from OR those that saw something in you and gave you that big "CHANCE". Trust me; many big chances WILL come along. You are going to need and get help from many along the way. Just DON'T forget it and repay them by doing a good job and helping others along the way when you get the chance.

12. Find out what type of work you want to do and who you think you want to work for. THEN find out everything that you can about the company. THEN find out who are the people that make the decisions. THEN go and meet them and learn a little about their operation. THEN make your decision on whether it is the right place for you and that you can accept what they are offering. THEN show them your eagerness to work for them and try and convince them that you are the best guy for the job. THEN once you get that job, LIVE by concepts 1 thru 11.

Follow #1-12 and your track CAN be:
Trained up and job ready in 1 to 1.5 years
CFI/CFII for 1-2 years
Turbines in 2-4 years
Twin Turbines in 5-10 years
Any mission you want in 5-10 years
Any aircraft you want in 5-10 years
Want the most money or best schedule or best retirement.....find out who’s got it , what qualifications they require , who does the hiring and go for it with a never ending persistence.

The Sky is the Limit. The only limits you will have are the ones that you place on yourself, not by the naysayers!
Best of luck in your helicopter endeavors!
This excerpt was taken from a post written by Lyn Burks.

… and here are my 2 cents:
Read the above over and over again and live by it! For the near future I would get all the licenses you can get, including the ATPL written exams. Try to build as much IFR training into your CPL training as possible, if possible even at night. Night time is very hard to come by and is therefore very valuable. After instructing the hardest part will be finding a job. For that … ask us again in 2 years. We might have another global financial crisis or simply just run out of oil til then.
In 5 to 10 years you’ll hopefully understand a lot better what I was trying to tell you today.

Best of luck to you … and I really mean that!

hihover

5th Feb 2012, 07:08

What a good post. Good job.

Tam Macklin

Nf stable

5th Feb 2012, 08:55

Great post there HH70 :ok:

Big Duke 6

5th Feb 2012, 20:40

Fantastic post Hammerhead, should be gospel for people !!

Helops, i would not consider flying off shore boring after 3/4 years , my end goal will be flying the S92 on SAR ops. Re-read point 3 on hammerheads post !!

Sure work can become repetitive , try setting the goal higher ! I've been on flights out to decks and loved it.

poker_player

13th Feb 2012, 17:57

Hi everybody! Im a 23 year old boy from Norway. I finished my helicoptertraining for soon two years ago and have been after jobs in Norway without much luck. Without knowing much about how the market is around the world I would like to hear oppinions on how dry/wet it is.

About me. Done well in school. Played fotball up to 19. Semi-poker pro. Worked approx a year at a factory. Studing math and economics atm.

If I am willing of working (maybe) anywhere in the world, for close to 0 salary, as long as I will get a few flight hours in or have some insurrance I will get it in th futrure, will it be hard to get a job?

Thanks for reading, and every responses, good or negative, is much appreciated.

MartinCh

14th Feb 2012, 00:58

PP, did you have JAA CPL done as well? Or was it FAA only? Norsk (Bristow) was hiring locals with not so many hours about year or two ago. Now it went up. There's advert for CHC in the UK for basic CPL holders, with ME IR, MCC and, ehrm AW139 rating as preferred. I know it'd be long shot due to competition of all the ME IR/MCC holders.

You need to try to keep current or semi-current. I know how rusty I was after almost 3 years of no heli flying (and I did some fixed wing/gliding, but anyway). If applying for job, if that happens that you'd be asked to have quick sortie with Chief Pilot or Asst Chief of smaller company and you'd be totally out of shape, it'd not bear well.

If no copilot job with turbines, the next most likely start of career is instructing. Or are you so short of cash to do extra hours and the FI rating? I know it's not little. Good luck.

canadaheli

27th Feb 2012, 16:40

Hello,
I am from Canada and I want to be a helicopter pilot. Eventually I want to be a Search and Rescue Pilot. I am willing to go anywhere in the world to get the hours. I do want to have weekends off consistently though (except in the case of an emergency). Does this sound unrealistic? I am willing to get any job anywhere in order to meet the qualifications for being a sar pilot. What do you guys recommend as a path for achieving this without having to work on weekends? Yeah, I know that SAR pilots work on weekends, but I am talking about before I reach that point...while I am building hours.

thanks for any information,

Canadaheli

Camp Freddie

27th Feb 2012, 16:56

Canadaheli,

My personal view is that it is completely unrealistic to embark on a career like this and to expect weekends off.

I started flying professionally in 1998, and have never had consistent weekends off, although once it did happen for about 6 months because I was on the flexi roster and the fixed roster was supplying all the weekend shifts.

Typically even now I am working about half the time on the weekends.

I have seen more than 1 Christian kick up a stink about getting every Sunday off and not succeeding.

While you are paying for the hours, treat yourself have every weekend off, and why not have every Friday and Monday off too if you like.

As soon as you are being paid, no chance in my opinion, and another thing, you really can't set Barriers like this and expect to be taken seriously, all it does it make you look like your commitment is low.

You will be up against others who don't careless about weekends, I was once a flying school manager and the most junior instructor tried not to work weekends, he soon became an ex instructor with that school

Good luck CF

Epiphany

27th Feb 2012, 17:16

Weekends off?

If you want to become a helicopter pilot then you can forget the concept of weekends. They do not exist in our business.

DBChopper

27th Feb 2012, 17:16

Eventually I want to be a Search and Rescue Pilot. I am willing to go anywhere in the world to get the hours. I do want to have weekends off consistently though (except in the case of an emergency). Does this sound unrealistic?

Yes, completely. IMHO you need a total rethink as to your career aspirations. Emergencies are not 9-5, Monday to Friday, and neither is the helicopter industry.

It's been said many times, but what a great post Hammerhead70 :ok:

canadaheli

27th Feb 2012, 17:32

Alright, thanks. Just curious. Don't worry, I haven't started my career yet;). I was just contemplating it, though I did know that emergencies where not nine to five monday to friday:).
Anyways, thanks,
canadheli

PapaechoIT

6th Apr 2012, 16:08

Hi everybody, I'm a low experienced helicopter pilot, with a CPL JAA and a mountain of money (spent, already).

Finding a low hours job outhere is really difficult, everyone requires at least 500/1000/1500 hours, and without being an instructor I see it very difficult.

The real problem is that you end the CPL with about 200h and you can't start FI (CFI) course till 250 h...so how to do, at least, that 50h?

I started this thread to have some advice, usefull also for all the fresh pilots outside there looking for an apparently missing job to start.

If anyone have suggestion, we can travel worldwide, from the Ice of Antartica to the sand of Sahara and the jungle of Vietnam.

Waiting for your suggestion to us, your next colleagues.

Cheers,
EP:ok:

Epiphany

6th Apr 2012, 16:44

A wise man once told me that although life rarely runs to plan it is important to at least have one. What was yours?

Camp Freddie

6th Apr 2012, 18:15

The only people who know your capabilities are the people you spent a ton of money with doing your CPL, if they won't give you work or hours I suggest the best option is for you save up and do the 50 hours and then do the FI course or do an IR and try to go offshore.

Other than that your options are limited unless you get a top tip of work somewhere , I agree with your man "epiphany", i.e. did you not think this through before?

powerlimited

6th Apr 2012, 18:39

Good work on getting your CPL. I would agree that you need an FI rating to get some work and start to build your experience.

If I were you I would be looking at schools you would like to work for and try get some non-flying work to get a foot in the door. This should help carve a future in the industry and hopefully I would have thought bring some positioning flights etc.

I would say in the current market throwing the money at the 50hrs and then a FI course would just allow you to join the endless queue of newly qualified FIs outside every school. You need to think of a way to differentiate yourself from the crowd and I feel getting experience in a school will help both financially and also in getting your first job.

Good luck and whatever path you decide just try to keep current in the meantime.

Al-bert

7th Apr 2012, 13:36

Weekends off. SAR. :ugh:Oh how I laughed! :O

liftman

7th Jun 2012, 10:57

Hallo everybody, i have just a question for rotary pilot.

I am 39, JAA fixed wing almost 2000 TT with 1500 IR.

Since no fixed wing job, i am thinking about an FAA CPL-IR-H add on after converting my JAA fixed wing in an FAA one.

Does thereafter my FW experience valuable for a copilot offshore position or it is absolutely useless?

Thanks

Liftman

Colibri49

7th Jun 2012, 11:25

Not absolutely useless, but very nearly. The fact that you have TT presumably as a co-pilot will help you to appreciate that an offshore heli job would involve a few more years in the co-pilot seat, but won't count for anything when applying to the large heli operators for an offshore job.

The heli world is VERY separated from the FW world and even if you were to invest huge sums of money in a CPL(H), you would be at the back of a very long queue of hopefuls trying for a job. At the moment the offshore market in the UK is buoyant and recruiting, but in all likelihood by the time that you could be holding a new licence, the large operators would probably be laying off pilots in the next downturn.

If I were you, I'd persevere in the FW world, which is more likely to need more pilots world-wide in the long term.

liftman

7th Jun 2012, 11:48

Colibri many thanks for your answer, apprecciated! :ok:

Super D

18th Jun 2012, 14:54

Hi,
I'm looking for advice from those of you willing to help out a low time pilot (~250 hrs) get a break in the industry. I'm a Canadian with my CPL(H) working on the ground for a Canadian-based heli company unable to bring up a low-time pilots into its full-time flight line. As it seems no sensible future is here for me, I'm looking elsewhere; all around the globe. Can you please provide some company names I can contact that you know do actually bring up low-timers and get them going? :ugh:
I would imagine that the outfits in the southern hemisphere will start getting busy towards the end of this year. ?
Any other suggestions?
PM or public responses are much appreciated.
Thanks!

ShyTorque

18th Jun 2012, 19:08

Over this side of the Atlantic there are many people in the same situation as yourself. The market here has contracted considerably over the last few years.

400hover

18th Jun 2012, 22:44

Good luck on your hunt and loose your hope... because low temp pilots its a thing that will always be in excess!! And low temp can be what you want! From 200 to 1000 hours!!

loudoun

11th Jan 2013, 14:24

Hi guys,

I've had around 20 hours of flight training and love it, to date i've only done it as a hobby but have recently been left some money and would love to do this as a career! This wasn't an option for me before.

I was just wondering if people could tell me what the job market is like for a newly qualified commercial helicopter pilot? the courses i've seen cost about £50,000 so it's a lot of money!

What kind of work can a newly qualified helicopter pilot expect?

paco

12th Jan 2013, 07:04

In UK, not much. In Canada, most companies are hiring. But these will be experienced pilots. Your problem is not so much getting the licence, but the minimum hours to be employable, typically about 500.

Plus immigration of course. :)

inditrees

12th Jan 2013, 15:54

The industry will always need new pilots to replace the old duffers as they retire to the bar, so my advice would be to go for it, get an IR while you are at it and start by applying at the top (North Sea) and work your way down the list of heli companies.
Don't waist your time listening to the Nay-Sayers, get on with it .....even on a bad day its sooooooooo much better than working.

good luck:ok:

One35

12th Jan 2013, 16:41

Hi Loudoun,

I'd echo Indetrees post; go for it. The industry goes up and down and there's frequently a need for low hour pilots to fill left hand seats on the North Sea.

Go into it with your eyes wide open though. If you go offshore you'll need an IR which will take the total cost of training to near £100,000 rather than the £50k you've seen advertised. The training is hard and time consuming and many fall by the wayside during the journey.

But on a positive note....best job in the world. Good luck! :ok:

paco

13th Jan 2013, 04:22

Hey Inditrees - happy new year! :)

The old duffers are starting to retire, and given the average age of the industry, over the next 5 years there will be a major crew change so your timing is good at least. My previous remarks were related to the charter market.

phil

zimbizee

18th Jan 2013, 11:33

Sorry but this is a ridiculous statement, there are always pilots retiring, no more than any other time.

Schools were saying vietnam pilots were retiring 15 years ago so there will be loads of jobs, and guess what??? they are still spinning the same old yarn - why? to get your money

paco

18th Jan 2013, 11:43

Listen - the average age on the Gulf of Mexico was 57 two years ago. It's a no-brainer. Already the N Sea guys are recruiting, and most companies in Canada are hiring. one of my instructors gets 2 or three job offers per month.

That's with the last dregs of the later Vietnam guys still around and at least one pilot in Canada flying at 72 years of age with diabetes. Experienced guys are hard to find right now.

Kindly wind your neck in until you know what you are talking about.

phil

gulliBell

18th Jan 2013, 11:53

...Experienced guys are hard to find right now....

In some markets not so hard to find...I know of several pilots in their early 40's with 5-10,000 hours twin/IFR experience who are out of work and have been looking for work for many months.

Regrettably it's just as tough for many of them to land a job as it is for the 200 hour aspiring-to-be co-pilot.

Vertical Freedom

18th Jan 2013, 13:04

23 years in this game & it was damn tough then, in the middle & still today. If You wanna make money forget Rotory. If its just fun challenging flying then Rotory is for You but landing a job........hmmmmm that's another story. Good luck :=

VF

zimbizee

18th Jan 2013, 13:46

I know what i am talking about, how dare you!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you assuming because i only have 5 posts that i don't have a clue. Well you know what they say about making an assumption.

I have been a heli pilot for 16 years.

Phil - BITE ME

Camp Freddie

18th Jan 2013, 14:05

When I started in 1997 I was told about the age demographic that was going to create jobs soon and I am still hearing it, I don't really believe it though.

My own observations suggest that it is harder now to get your first IFR job than it was then (no IR required in them days, pre JAR),

Jobs seem to depend more on the boom/bust of the North Sea more than anything else, booms I can remember in 1998, 2001, 2005-7, 2012-

I reckon the age thing is just a lot of bunk :)

paco

18th Jan 2013, 16:00

"Are you assuming because i only have 5 posts that i don't have a clue. Well you know what they say about making an assumption.

I have been a heli pilot for 16 years."

No I'm not. And how dare you assume that just because I mention that there are some jobs available now, and maybe on the horizon in the near future, that we are just saying that to get the money. I know a lot of Chief Pilots and owners of companies who have piles of mostly useless resumes. As I have mentioned before, 3 of my students are company owners who have all expressed difficulty in finding good staff. One of them is well known for taking on low timers.

Being a heli pilot for 16 years does not mean anything. You could still be ignorant. Equally, you could be really good one having been one for only two weeks.

Yes, certain parts of the heli industry are oversubscribed - equally, many others are crying out for staff.

Phil

MartinCh

22nd Jan 2013, 22:28

gulliBell, you guys down in NZ have quite high ratio of heli pilots per capita and that's before we count all the 'emigrees' to Australia in search of more low timer jobs and warmer pastures.

Are you sure those guys you mention, high timers without job right now, are happy to relocate to ME or Asia?

Regarding the demographics, I'd say it's not as much due to Vietnam etc, but rather reduced flow of military 'retirees' to civvy flying and amount of new helicopter ops, contracts, HEMS bases etc. Couple that with ever-increasing cost of initial training and various 'bits' after (time or ratings).

Well, in the USA, there are many low timers or relatively junior instructors these days thanks to the ex-mil personnel getting grants/sponsorship towards career retraining. NZ has seen funding/loan availability for few big schools offering academic and flight training for fixed wing or heli, hence more lowtimers there on market, too. Definitely at least more jobs in NZ and Australia for people starting out, compared to some European countries.

I saw presentation slides (CPL/ATPl holders per age or total in country and HEMS pilots age, not some school marketing) for certain Central European country. If the mins stay as they are (not that high for twin PIC EMS jobs), in 3-5 years they'd have problems to crew bases. Even heard of suggestions of mandating HEMS as multicrew on EC135 in the ops regs to make the staffing easier.

Jobs and opportunities vary from country, company to timing/year or minimum flight time/ratings. While it may be hard to get job in one country, not as hard in another, if one can 'fit in'/relocate.