why is everyone flightcrew leaving the military?

[thecontroller]

bristol groundschool is full of flight crew people either getting out or about to get out

why is this?

[Lyneham Lad]

Hmmmm, it could be that one or two (or ten) of the threads on this forum might just give you a few clues.............:rolleyes:



OK, thats got rid of the message about not posting for some weeks.
Hat, coat, door......

[QFIhawkman]

Hi controller,

I take it you're not a frequent visitor to the Military Aviation forum? Have a good read, it'll give you some big pointers of issues affecting the RAF today. I'd like to go into detail, but in all honesty it's all been covered ad infinitum on these forums, and if you have a look at some other forum sites you'll see that it's not just "flight crew" either. Ground trades are leaving in droves too. (Proportionately speaking, probably more so).
I really don't wish this reply to sound flippant, but there's no other way of putting it. Things are in a huge downward spiral and people can't wait to get out. Bad morale, bad equipment, fast turnaround on detachments, lowering standards, overstretch, etc etc. I could go on all night.

Hopefully that answers your question though. I'll leave you to do "further reading" as you see fit!

[thecontroller]

hi, no i am not a frequent visitor. presumably there is no shortage of flightcrew wannabees to take their place though?

[stickmonkeytamer]

Most aircrew are now doing their licences and are looking to move on from the "new" RAF as soon as their option point comes along. Take the gratuity and pension and go and do something that, mostly, does not involve more secondary duties than primary ones (ie just the flying). The "new" RAF is not the "old" RAF - most people, not just aircrew, are realising that it is time to go. Aircraft servicability, OOA too frequently and the general way that we are all being treated is playing a large part in people's decision to vote with their feet. I feel sorry for those left behind who will, no doubt, be forced to work even harder with less time off and more OOA.

Last one out, switch the light off (if the MOD haven't taken the one servicable lightbulb out and sold it already)...

SMT

[QFIhawkman]

hi, no i am not a frequent visitor. presumably there is no shortage of flightcrew wannabees to take their place though?

Of course not. (Again, read these forums, keeping a lookout for "I'm hoping to join the RAF!")
There'll always be plenty of volunteers for the flying jobs. "Ah but how do you replace experience?" I hear you ask. And there's the rub.
It's going down the sewer I'm afraid. Time to jump ship for me, and I'm a certified RAF nut.

[truckiebloke]

What I really like is leaving home at 0700, spending most of the day flying and teaching the student(the good bit) and then thinking at about 1730, its just about time to go home....

Oh, but then I'm asked whether I've completed the ''little jobs'' and secondary duties that I have been given (because there are simply not enough staff, no admin assistants etc etc) My reply is quite simply '' sorry , not enough time''

But that isn't a good enough answer it seems... what we are meant to do is make up for all the shortfalls and the under manning by working stupidly long hours..

So arrive back at house around 1930 to have less than 12 hours before leaving again!!! But its ok, at least I dont have orderly officer to do at the weekend.....

[thecontroller]

not willing to offend anyone, but isnt it just the case that the military has finally caught up with the way the working world is for civilians? ie underpaid, overworked, too much form-filling...

[Runaway Gun]

Maybe, but when was the last time you saw a story on the news about an overworked postal worker falling off his bike, spilling Christmas cards all over the road?

If a similar thing happens to a fatigued military pilot at work..... he's famous !!

[QFIhawkman]

not willing to offend anyone, but isnt it just the case that the military has finally caught up with the way the working world is for civilians? ie underpaid, overworked, too much form-filling...

Probably yes.

But at the same time how do you fancy Iraq or Afghanistan this time of year? If you were told it'll be one this year, and the other the next, how would you feel then? Oh and by the way, how do you feel about the fact that you'll get paid approximately 20-40% less than your contemporaries in civvy street?
We could argue this all night. I'm just trying to give you a flavour of where most of the RAF are coming from.

By the way, not offended in the slightest old chap. As I say, I'm out soon, so I feel no offence whatsoever! Ask the guys that are staying though......:sad:

[GlosMikeP]

From personal experience, the hours don't change - still 0700 to 1900 (and sometimes though the night when bidding for new work) - but then the advantages of not having secondary duties, DSO/OO or being sent to warzones are somewhat obvious.

I wouldn't go back for double the salary.

[Lafyar Cokov]

Here is an insight into why Bristol Grounschool might be full of ex mil candidates (Well, my ramblings on what would make an experienced pilot, with a steady and guaranteed income, want to jump ship)

I love the RAF (yep, sad but I really am proud of everything we stand for and everything we have achieved), the flying training I have received and the job I do has been second to none and I could not wish for some of the opportunities I have been afforded. However, I have reached my option point and, although I've been offered PA and a short term extension to my current terms, will be off as soon as I can. I know that where I am going (Civvy airlines, hopefully) will not be a complete bed of roses but I also know that the RAF that I joined is not the RAF that I am currently serving.

The shop floor of the British military has an inherent ability to keep going despite whatever is thrown at it, particularly in the way of budget cuts and poor equipment. Hopefully the new blood that is currently earning it's spurs or that are joining as we speak will be happy with the state of things as they are as they will know no different and this is what will keep the services going. This is as long as budget cuts do not really hit safety - once that happens then we have a whole new ball game. I just have a fear that this will happen sooner rather than later which is one of the reasons I want to leave now.

As an SH driver, the implementation of JHC has seen nothing but negatives for the RAF. Despite our protestations and early highlighting of our concerns, the few benefits of being in the RAF have been slowly but surely eroded. I do not wish this to sound like the AAC have in any way dragged us down, they have had their terms and conditions reduced and do not appear to have seen any benefit from the amalgamation. The FAA seem to have escaped many of the drawbacks although I beleive that the CHF are starting to feel the bite a little.

Our lords and masters have done precious little to protect us from a government with a vastly over-ambitious foreign policy that a) doesn't want to pay for its military (Brown's "Pay for Gulf War 2 out of your training budget" and his announcement of a 'vote saving' Iraq/Afghan bonus that is then to be funded from the existing MoD budget) and b) is traditionally anti-military (How many current MPs have served in HM Forces?). We have a hierachy full of yes-men and they are all so bloody afraid to upset the apple cart that we have been stitched up time and time again.

We have operational deployments to particularly dodgy parts of the world cropping up with increased frequency and it seems to be made as hard as possible to actually deploy with more and more admin hoops to jump through before they will 'let you go' (as if you want to go) everytime we deploy. When we finally arrive at these godforsaken places it is never down to the skill of the Defence Transport 'Management' Agency - who seem to do everything in there power to make your trip to hell as unpleasant as possible.

We have also had to put up with the civilianisation of the military. This not only manifests iteslf with civvy companies doing half of the tasks that used to be done by the military and then not doing the SDO, Guard Commander, Gate Gurd duties that now appear on our programmes with more and more regularity, but also with all the bo11ocks management speak of 'Line Managers', "Mission Statements" and "Focus Groups". Can someone tell me when a 'Line Manager' last lead a squadron into battle? We need and want military leaders.

Finally, we are sick to death with our own terms and conditions being constantly chiselled away. MQs that are so poorly administered that it takes 6 months to have a serious fault fixed and the promise that in the near future rents will increase to match civilian rates; the lack of health and dental care (at my base station there is no Dental receptionist due to budget cuts - so appointments have to be made via answerphone and the hope that when you are called back you are not flying/deployed), the reduction in benefits snuck in the back door via JPA and the pi55 poor salary increases, assessed by the 'independant' AFPRB that every single time seem to be exactly in line with government targets despite how hard we are working or what extra duties our jobs have attracted.

I realise I have ranted for a while now and some outsiders might look on these and think 'spoilt', 'prima-donna', and 'get a life, join the real world'. The big thing is that I was sold one set of terms and conditions and, by erosions via both the back and front doors, these have now gone. This is probably the case for many that are deciding that they have had enough and is why so many are looking for work in the civvy sector.

[End 'Rant']

[Norman Nimrod]

I left the Air Force in 2001 and the only things I miss is the sense of humour and the laughs I had .. I think Lafyar Cokov is Spot on and far from being a rant his post is 100% spot on.

I could see the way things were going back then and I havent looked back since joining Civvy St, it still makes me smile that employers thought more of me for just having been in the Royal Air Force than the Royal Air Force thought of me while I was serving.

As for the politicians they are living proof that brain death isnt fatal, as far as I am concerned the only man who ever entered the House of Commons with a good idea was Guy Fawkes.

I am going to stop now before the Rant switch kicks in .. ;)

[mutleyfour]

In the 23 years that I have so far served the only thing that has ever actually got better is the Boots, everything else has got worse.

I agree with you Lafyer Cokov whole heartedly, I am now finals to land in Civvy street and consider my next posting the last.

[RETDPI]

In the 23 years that I have so far served the only thing that has ever actually got better is the Boots, everything else has got worse..
What grips me and many others who have baled out, has been watching the prevailing role model attributes slide steadfastly from "Dan Dare" to "Arthur Daley" over thirty years.

[gijoe]

What grips me and many others who have baled out, has been watching the prevailing role model attributes slide steadfastly from "Dan Dare" to "Arthur Daley" over thirty years.

Brilliant - thanks for this - best laugh all day.

[forwardassist]

Lafyer Cokov has supplied the answer and I agree with him wholeheartedly.
The nail was hit firmly on the head (for me, at least) at the recent Heli-Power conference. When one of the speakers, not from the UK, was asked how he managed to keep his aviators in the service, instead of them wishing to leave, he answered that you have to ensure that their efforts are appreciated, and that they, and their families, are well supported.
The two words that I have underlined are considerably less today, and in some places non-existant, compared to the armed forces I joined many years ago, and, I suspect, across all 3 services and not just from the RAF, as the RAF in Meltdown thread is showing. (Anyone else non-RAF joining in this thread? We are purple on PPRuNe!)

That is why people are looking for the door.
And stealing your airline jobs. :E

[Mr Blake]

This thread is in danger of crossing over into the RAF in Meltdown discusion, however all valid points. The RAF is now a business, and is attempting to set itself up as one. The only problem is it's bankrupt, and its greatest asset, its people, cannot be treated like commodities, to use and abuse as required, due to the nature of the job given to them.

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Agree totally with Lafyar. Newly promoted, I have made the decision with Mrs SLC that it isnt worth the heart ache/separation to stay long enough to confirm the pension and have pulled the yellow and black handle to hopeful happiness. I just have to go before I become more bitter about the betrayal of our efforts by an ungrateful government and senior managements lack of inspirational leadership; I am no longer proud of the Royal Air Force in which I serve.

At least the man blowing the leaves on the grass outside my office has a sense of achievement when he goes home..................:hmm:

[MrBernoulli]

countdeblades

MOST DEFINITELY do your ground subjects at Bristol Groundschool. I don't think I could have managed the old CAA Nav exams without Alex Whittingham and his team. His course, now JAR of course, is designed to get you up to speed on exam technique and the 'flavours of the month' in JAR subjects. In other words, a course to pass the exam, not necessarily to learn all the trivial crap that the majority of the syllabus contains.

Alex himself could teach the ENTIRE course from memory (seems to have a brain the size of a planet) but, of course, he hasn't the time. So he has a first rate team all singing from his hymn sheet - "This is how to pass the exam!"

DO IT, yoy know it makes sense. I do not believe there is another course that even comes close to his in terms of giving you the tools to get your little green license.

PS - No, I am not affiliated or paid by BGS. I just know they are the best.

[Rigga]

Contrary to the earlier posts - I believe this sits VERY well with the "RAF Meltdown" thread.
The only difference is 'who' we are talking about, as this seems to be aircrew rather than groundcrew.
All the same reasons are given there too.

[spannermonkey]

I have spent some time reading the various threads on PPRuNe and have to say I am in total agreement with the previous comments WRT the state of the RAF. I am also close to the black and yellow option, being one who joined as a lowley mech many years ago having now done 1-3rd line tours as well as Stn, industry and DLO type tours, the current one presently being a JEngO tour. Not only has the Air Force reached the point where the consitent errosion has destroyed what little ethos and pride many of us had in the RAF but the fact that none of the Airships (gawd bless em!) have made any effort that can be shouted about to stop, slow down or even reverse the current state of affairs. As with many I am bitter, but bitter that the clowns who control the Military don't seem to realise that the fact that the entire forces are not only overstretched, underfunded, underequipped with morale so low that if it baled out from a snakes a**e it would still be able to get full deployment before impact. More importantly it is not just sites and forums such as PPRuNe that are shouting about it but that everyone knows it and they (the luvies at No 10) and the Seniors of the Services, with the exception of Gen Dannett seem to want to do nothing about it, and our Airships are the worst of the lot!!

I (as do many others) spend most of my time fighting to justify why the gapped posts I have NEED to be filled by PMA, why with only half manpower we can't keep all the ac serviceable as the stupendous lean and E2E studies have removed what we need to do just that. I could rant on and on and on about how the contractorisation of our 2nd and 3rd line is not working but in actual fact I don't give a flying toss about Fwd and Depth or stats or E2E or lean or customers or business processes or SOR or URDs any of the other poxy and irritating issuses that have been forced upon us. All which get in the way of all of us being able to do what we need to and want to do. We are in the Air Force, the aim of which is to genrate and project military power around the globe to protect our interests at home and overseas and to act as a force for good (hell I did remejber somthing from Cranners). But if Mr Blair/Brown continue in the current direction there will not be an Air Force in a couple of years.

I have spent a lot of years working with some of the best people in the world, and made some lasting freindships to boot, but the time has come where my family need a daddy at home to see them grow up. I also understand as do we all that the powers that be are more interested in costs and money than ability and capability and have for a long time failed to acknowledge that they need to SUPPORT the forces, not just make mouth music. It saddens me so much that the reason I will be leaving the RAF is that I no longer have any trust or faith in those who are in control.

All I can say is good luck to those who choose to remain, you have my thanks, appreciation and understanding.:D

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Spannermonkey - mind if I borrow some of that to put in a covering letter with my yellow and black?:D

[ZH875]

spannermonkey - Nail, Head spot on.

Looks like PMA will be seeing your words many times over.

Less than 1yr left, thankfully, as it is no fun anymore

[matkat]

Spanner excellent post, I also joined up as a lowly AmechP (remember them?) but left at the 13 year(1989) point even then it was fairly obvious the way things were going even though I was on for 22 I just could not see me staying till then so jumped ship, to be honest I have never regreted it and in fact sometimes wished I had left earlier and got licensed and typed much sooner. Good luck in your future career whether it is in the airlines (very much needed in this day and age) or something else.:D

[OilCan]

What I really like is leaving home at 0700, spending most of the day flying and teaching the student(the good bit) and then thinking at about 1730, its just about time to go home....
Oh, but then I'm asked whether I've completed the ''little jobs'' and secondary duties....

What I really like is leaving home at 0400 to prepare for an 0700 Take Off - to find there's no serviceable aircraft - yet!.

What I really - really like then, is using the time constructivley to catch up with the little admin things in life which form such an important part of our support infrastructure.

No problem, delayed flight - good excuse for a spot of 'fat boys breakfast' in the mess :ok: - but due to staff shortages it's centralised messing in the airmans mess this week and late breakfasts are out!:{

Ok, nip up to SHQ and renew the wife's railcard at last - except it's Wednesday - due to staff shortages - they don't do Wednesdays.

Clothing stores then? - new shirts - "Nah, we've been waiting for that size for weeks"
- How about replacing these trousers? - "No problem Sir, Tailors Parade Tuesdays 1000-1200 - but she's on holiday for 3 weeks"

hmmm.... Ah - SCAF (inventories) - just up stairs - "Sorry Sir, Cpl Stacker went OOA last week, I've just taken over his desk as well as my own, and I know nothing about your inventory"

A spot of admin? - except the computer system has dumped all my details and doesn't know who I am - and the one in house specialist computer bod is on CCS det prep - all week! :ugh:
Oh bug*er, can't check my e-mails, work on those overdue reports, or those lesson preps. Can't check the tea bar accounts or the duty rosters for the Xmas period. Double bug*er!

Oh well - chin up - how's the aircraft? - "Yep, we've got one serviceable, but it's shift change and the next shift will have to AF/BF it - should be ready by lunch time" :hmm:
(quick mental calc - hour and a half crew in - could be airborne by 1400 - if we're quick. - 6hr Op/CT. - land by 2000 - oops - quick call to the wife to rejig this evenings plans.)

Now what? - Annual medical - "Certainly Sir, - first available appointment March 27" :uhoh:

Dental centre - How soon could I get a hygenist appointment please? -
"We would give you one tomorrow Sir, - if we had a hygenist" :}

Gymnasium - "Sorry Sir, the showers are U/s"

Submit a leave application - except I can't get logged on to the JPA :bored:

Car Pass - "Sorry Sir, he's on his break, back in 15mins - staff shortages you know".

So I stand for 15mins and marvel at the volume of traffic going on and off the Station, and how those in uniform are all stopped for ID checks, but the white vans, artics and taxis are waved straight through - amazing. Somebody must be busy. ;)
"Sorry Sir, the sticky back plastic machine is broken so I can't issue a permenant pass, but your temporary one is good for another 3 days"!
- I don't suppose I can..... -
"Nope, not when there's still 3 days on that one, you'll have to come back when that runs out" :*
- Could I maybe speak to OC Plods and..... -
"Nope, she's just gone OOA and the F/Sgt is on post det leave"

Ok, count to ten, shrug shoulders, bow politely and give in...:(

Check on aircraft again. Yippee, AF/BF is complete - Oh bug*er - the one 'qualified' driver on shift is busy with coach runs to the rifle range for the Regt Flight, then he's on lunch break so we won't get fuel 'till 1330 - "staff shortages you know"

Airborne by 1430 maybe? - you must be joking - there's a Take-off and Landing embargo between 1400 and 1600 because of the fire section shift manning problems, not helped by having 4 firemen on gate guard this week. :sad:

Airborne at 1600 then? - so that was in for 0430 to get airborne at 1600 for 6hrs and land at 2200,
- crew duty time, err.. just about legal,
- motivation, err.. just about intact,
- morale, err... fragile,
- playmates, err... none existant,
- training value, err...zero,
but the Flight deck crew need the hours for currency, the rear crew have a standards check tomorrow in the sim and the Staish needs to show the hours flown this month so we better go.

2200 landing - "Sorry Sir, the Eng you borrowed from crew 2 is flying as Ops1 with crew 6 tomorrow at 0700 and needs some rest time before another early start."
- "Where's our Eng?" -
"You haven't got one!."

Oh bug*er. :(

Drop in by the Ops room on the way out and note; 'War flyable Aircraft Availability 98.5%' :rolleyes: and in the remarks column for todays sortie - 'Cancelled - Aircrew Scrub. - No Crew!' :ugh:

What I really, really - really like then, is to sit at home in the evening with a great sense of achievement and satisfaction after a productive days work, content in the knowledge that my days efforts are a highly valued contribution to the collective objective and proud of the fact that the huge logistics tail of this modern efficient fighting Air Farce is there to support me....:D

[spannermonkey]

Mange tou Rodney, mange tou!!!!!

It wouldn't be so funny if it was not ALL true!

[Rigga]

bristol groundschool is full of flight crew people either getting out or about to get out
why is this?

Would that be enough of an answer then?


edited bit - I've just re-read all this - Even if you had an official Enquiry to answer to - You couldn't make all this up!

[toddbabe]

Oil can I think you work the same place as the rest of us! great isn't it?

[thecontroller]

blimey. now i see what everyone's getting out. it sounds like working for the local council, except you get to visit war-zones and get up earlier in the morning.

ah well, look on the bright side. at least you dont have £40,000 debt for your flight training costs....

[demobcurious]

Not that curious anymore. Got out, got a civvie job, and the grass IS much greener.

Spannermonkey,I don't give a flying toss about Fwd and Depth or stats or E2E or lean or customers or business processes or SOR or URDs any of the other poxy and irritating issuses that have been forced upon us.What a cracking quote! I'm going to nick it and call it my own :E.

[light_my_spey]

Airships, for the love of god -TAKE NOTE AT WHAT IS GOING ON, AND DO SOMETHING!!!!!:{

[BEagle]

No doubt they will "hear what you say"......:rolleyes:

But hope that it will go away until they get the 3rd star and the K.

[Pontius Navigator]

In the 23 years that I have so far served the only thing that has ever actually got better is the Boots, .

Wow mutleyfour, my flying boots are that old :)

[QFIhawkman]

No doubt they will "hear what you say"......:rolleyes:

But hope that it will go away until they get the 3rd star and the K.

For once in my life I agree with BEagle.

That's exactly it. The Airships "Hear" what is said. They also "Read" what is said.

They then think: "Ah well, I'm only in post 18 months, it won't affect me or my promotion. That's automatic!".
"F*ck it".

"And F*ck them all!"

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

"And F*ck them all!"
Hush!!! You mutinous dog.
Who needs morale when you have discipline?
Just remember a day out of uniform is a day wasted. :rolleyes:

[Top Right]

Having read Oilcan's resume of a bad day, I recall a Flight Safety video in the late 80s. It was about an FJ pilot (actor Richard O'Sullivan?) who had a bad morning in the mess, in supply, in pre-brief - everywhere. And it all led to the worst possible result, I think. Yet what happened in the video wasn't even a half of Oilcan's summary of the hassles of today .....

[Mal Drop]

I think it was called "Distractions" and had the young Beckinsale as a Harrier mate with things on his mind. To be honest from my memories of Sqn life even in the late 80's there is far more to get wound up about now. The benefits of Service life have all but been eroded by those who have little or no knowledge of their value.

[Pilot Pacifier]

I've just under 2 years to do on the Chinny fleet and my boss said to me the other day, "I don't think you'll leave in a couple of years." :=

In walks ***** and states, "Boss, I've just worked that the average time we'll be spending in Afghanistan over the next three years is 5 1/2 months per year." :eek:

I looked at my boss, I didn't have to say a word... :}

Last one out, please turn all the lights off... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/_79_Vortex/sc-rambo-1.gif

[Dan Winterland]

This thread has hit it's third page in just under 36 hours of the original post and everyone is singing from the same songsheet. Perhaps someone will take notice. (I jest!).

I left the RAF at a bad time (one month befor 9/11) and managed to be made redundant from my first airline job before I'd even officially left the RAF. I did hear one sentiment from the RAF to the effect that all their retention problems were over. But I didn't go back in and neither did most of my contempories. And now, I'm far better off.

My reasons for not assimilating were various and have all been covered here in depth. But this was 5 years ago and things seem far worse now.

As for BGS, the class was full of mil guys when I did the course. They offer the best product for a chap who has most of the info but needs to organise it in his head in a fashion which will get him/her through the hoops.

[BEagle]

Well, the 'accreditation of military flying training and experience scheme' seems to have eased the passage (:ooh:) of a fair few folk into the civil airlines.

Originally, it was intended to keep people in until they had at elast reached the qualifying hours. But now, it seems, many are jumping before they get that far despite the generous terms we secured with the CAA for experienced QSPs.

The airlines and other commercial air transport operators are indeed expanding - and are snapping up all ex-military pilots they can. Yet no-one seems to be doing anything to encourage anyone to stay.

How long now until the whole RAF implodes?

If Binnsworth wants sympathy, it can be found in the usual place. In the dictionary, between $hit and syphilis and closer to squadron leader than sorry!

Morning, Jock!

[nigegilb]

I read somewhere that Sir Jock (of stretched but not over-stretched fame), will not go anywhere near a member of the press without at least one MoD minder. Well Sir, it appears that your people need you right now, maybe you should throw a little caution to the wind and start earning your pennies in a more visible fashion? The manning figures released yesterday show further worrying shortfalls in the RAF, things are about to take a marked change for the worse.

[spannermonkey]

To add a little more fuel to the already blazing fire of dissent, dejection, frustration and anger. Did anyone catch the 10 o clock news on the beeb last night. Seems the Herc issue has come round to bite the MoD on the A**E again. Only saw the last part but it appears the foam that was supposed to have been fitted has only be put in two ac. That as well as a general tearing down of the Air Force not being able to support lift ops due to a knackered and very old fleet of ac. But hey at least we can still find the money (over £1Bn) to poor into a certain company to continue to maintain them. That on top of all the other money that has been 'invested' in other programmes where outside companies now supposedly maintain ac, which means the Big Wigs no longer need that blue suit manpower so they can dispose of it. Oh sorry theredundancy programe has turned out to be a bit of a sham too! No I hear you say, a slight error on their part has required the standard PVR times to be enforced to prevent those who never got selected to walking staight away!

I think there will be more to come on this thread and I hope so the new report last night in general painted the Air Force in a pretty poor light - SIR JOCK take note things are not all rosey, they are in fact a pile of poo and you sir need to stand up and earn your pennies as the others say! But remember you have a very good and dedicated buch of people who are currently keeping the good ship RAF afloat but not for much longer!!!!

TGIF !!!!!!

[mutleyfour]

But remember you have a very good and dedicated buch of people who are currently keeping the good ship RAF afloat but not for much longer!!!!
TGIF !!!!!!
Spannermonkey, has the RAF been taken over by a bunch of Dykes?

[matkat]

Also read that Ian McNichol thinks there is nothing wrong with the air transport he obviously does not read very much I remember the AVM when I was at XV squadron not a bad bloke really but even though i left many moons ago it is glaringly obvious there ar HUGE problems it amazes me (should not really) that when things used to go right their airships were patting themselves on the back but now it is not they either deny there is a problem or worse blame everyone else.
P.S. Ian if you are reading this I am the SAC that also came from Dundee.

[nigegilb]

It is quite amusing to read what is acceptable MoD speak. We appear to have moved incrementally from stretched to operating at the limit. Anyone care to guess what the next increment is? Obviously excluding working beyond the limit.

[mutleyfour]

It is quite amusing to read what is acceptable MoD speak. We appear to have moved incrementally from stretched to operating at the limit. Anyone care to guess what the next increment is? Obviously excluding working beyond the limit.

Nige, it reminds me of those early Star Trek days:

"Sir, she kannae take it"

"I Know Scotty, but just 8 more years, do the best you can"

"Aye cap'n"

[Jambo Jet]

The manning figures released yesterday show further worrying shortfalls in the RAF, things are about to take a marked change for the worse.

Nige, Do you have a link to these figures?

[Had Enough 77]

I made the decision to leave due to the fact that the majority of senior flt lt's sqn ldrs pilots I saw when i got to my station were all either PVR'd or taking their option.

I have to admit it was one of the hardest decisions i have made but now i realise it was the right decision. I met up with some of my mates at a funeral the other day and they all to a man are completely fed up and feel that there is no respect from on high for what they do or who they are.
Example: Being put on Ops 1 the weekend before you are sent to the gulf at short notice. That really boosted the boys morale!

As for the QSP hours requirement most of these guys are now seriously considering getting out as soon as and doing all the exams and the multi IR. Its has to be pretty bad when things are getting to this stage.:\

As for Bristol Groundschool, they are very proffesional in what they do and they helped me pass first time. I would definately recommend them.:D

[nigegilb]

This is the link to the manning figures. Armed Forces now at 96.5% manning and dropping.

http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/tsp4/tsp4tab1.html

Incidentally, as has been reported elsewhere, the British Army is now officially a defence force, as its manning has now fallen below 100,000. A spotters point, maybe, but also a hint of things to come?

[mutleyfour]

Interesting stats Nige, especially the Officers Voluntary Outflow for the RAF at a new high of 4.2, almost double the figure from 2 years ago. Tells a tale!

For the uniniated VO was formally known as PVR

[scroggs]

I left in '98. The RAF had been gaining downhill momentum for some years, and, even then, I felt I left four or five years later than I should have done. Now, nearly 10 years later, the cries from you guys of overstretch, lack of pastoral care, and ever-lower sinking morale suggest that the RAF (and probably the RN and Army too) have passed the point of losing credibility as fighting forces outside the US umbrella, and are rapidly approaching the point where the decline becomes irreversible and unstoppable.

I can only suggest that you attempt to find more enlightened and purposeful employers, for whom politics are an interference and a distraction, not their reason for living.

[Jambo Jet]

They are interesting stats however looking at the index trend of PVRs

http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/tsp4/tsp4tab14.html

Then the annual rates do not vary that much as a whole, with each year being compared with 1999/2000 and being pretty stable really. 2001 was an odd year and last year was down on the normal.

I guess though that you can argue any fact from stats.

However this is very telling.....

Gains to the Trained Strength of the UK Regulars in the 12 months to 30 September 2006 was 13,860p compared with 15,580 in the 12 months to 30 September 2005.

RAF Gains to Trained Strength fell by 50.2p percent (1,530p compared with 3,070)
RAF Trained Outflow rose 21.8p percent (5,080p compared with 4,170)

[NoseGunner]

Does noone else think that the Army being 860 officers overmanned (v RAF 790 undermanned) is incredible?

[nigegilb]

Jambo JJ!

Yea, the MoD mandarins and service chiefs argued that very line earlier in the year. However, these stats show a very recent increase in vo, it was passed off as admin process efficiency by our illustrious leaders. However, from a subjective view, reading threads here and elsewhere I believe we are about to lurch towards a significant outflow. You could argue that many people have been hanging on to find out if they were selected for tranche 3. Finally, when sentiment changes, all bets are off. It is a brave man who states that everything is within the historical norm.

[countdeblades]

For our pilots, fun flying, only 6 days away at a time, quick hop likely into left-hand seat - information here (http://www.netjetseurope.com/home.html?lang=eng) [>>>>> Contact us >>>> Careers]

Had a quick peek. Only 6 days away from home :eek: Can that be true? More used to taking 6 days just getting there courtesy of HMG.....Not sure now whether to send my CV or a charter request for the next trip away:sad:

[glum]

Numbers pulled from the stats link:

Overall:
Officers
Requirement (2) 30,040
Strength (4) 30,040
Surplus/Deficit 0

Other Ranks
Requirement (2) 155,720
Strength (4) 149,390
Surplus/Deficit -6,330

Interesting indeed...

[Tourist]

Mike J

Pardon me for being slightly cynical, but any airline that is haemorrhaging pilots at the rate yours is and has to pimp itself on here just to get pilots doesn't sound tempting.:hmm:

Perhaps you should consider making the travel time part of work not rest days.

[Biggus]

Getting back on thread.......

With regard to the stats published on the DASA link provided a few posts back by Jambo Jet and nigegilb - one thing to bear in mind. If you look closely at the RAF figures you will see a little 'p' next to them! 'p' is for provisional! Why provisional you may ask? Because thanks to the wonders of JPA the RAF is not even sure how many people are currently PVRing!

On my station, with the loss of SAMA, we are not even sure who is on the base. JPA tracks new arrivals and departures, but as to who was here when JPA went live....? I believe the PVR, nay 'termination', function of JPA is not working yet, so many people have filled in the old form, which then needs to be backentered by HR staff, who are overwhelmed by the current numbers!

Then again I would ask when does a PVR candidate show up on the official stats, when they first apply, or finally leave?

Finally, a large part of the problem isn't just the PVR rate, but the number of people leaving at options. The RAF has always planned on a certain percentage staying in. Whatever figure they have assumed I would say is well above the current retention rate (only 17% of Sqn Ldr ME pilots staying at 38 is a figure I have heard quoted).

There is more than enough evidence out there to show that the loss rate (PVR + option point) is well, well above historic norms. By the time the 'official' stats show it up it will probably be too late!

[ZOFO]

Spannermonkey.

Fantastic post!:D I think that you have broke the vow of silence that a lot of people in your position are afraid to break!!. I can safely say that the "dissent" is not only felt at "your level" but also at "my level". At present I have a PVR rate in my section of over 70 percent. I am really strapped for manpower, I am working 24/7 365 be it on call or actually in my section. The late reply is due to me being called out earlier this evening for an incident that I am sure that you will all have seen on tele earlier:). Well it made the news on UTV anyway!!. The powers to be have to really sit back and re-think on where it is going wrong, Underfunded, yep heard that one before, Undermanned, yep, youth of today are not going to join up. and the Classic "Overstretched", Wait till next year when according to the PM it is all going smoothly over here!!. I think that we may have more than 2 fronts to worry about, but hey dont believe me I am but a mere cog in the wheel!!

My dad (RIP) when in the Mob used to say to me that it was the Blind leading the Blind (i.e shut up and get on with it) and I must say that was the Airforce that i joined 21 years ago, but after all this time it is now the Blind leading the guys on the ground that can see what is happening but have to put up and shut up with bosses with no back bone (Jelly fish)

Time for Change? (You know it will never happen)

I really hope that the Air****"ps really see how happy their troops are!!

By the way have they not leaned Bradenham Beeches Lately, that would save a packet. Sorry only speaking from a previous life having to guard it!!:mad:

[Two's in]

There appears to be an obvious connection here, where most of those leaving, or contemplating leaving, have done quite a number of years service. This reinforces the point that those who remember the quality of life and standards of service from 10 years ago or more, are quite rightly appalled by the Barnum and Baily PLC approach offered today. It also explains why new joiners are less likely to see the same problems as the more experienced personnel; if you've always been treated shabbily, you probably won't notice it when they continue to treat you shabbily.

What it further highlights is that the inhabitants of the Ivory Towers at Innsworth, Main Building or wherever, know exactly how much those terms of service have been eroded (and they have been instrumental in that erosion of course) but steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem.

Here's a cynical thought, if you wait long enough for all you old buggers who remember being appreciated, treated with respect, and given the right equipment to do the job (in other words, stuff that costs Gordon and Tony money), to finally leave the service, are you then left with compliant young pups who know no better, or can easily be manipulated to follow the party line? Maybe creating disillusionment amongst the experienced members of the service is not viewed as a problem, maybe some Master bean-counter at Innsworth sees it as a bright new dawn, where in the future nobody has any right to respect or can remember "the good old days".

[glum]

The young pups are just as aghast at the lack of spares and equipment. They joined on the strength of the careers office PR, and having passed their trade training are now finding out how brown the grass is on this side of the fence.

There's just enough old sweats to fill them in on the good old days!:E

[gijoe]

Does noone else think that the Army being 860 officers overmanned (v RAF 790 undermanned) is incredible?

NG,

Point taken but the average life of an Army officer is far shorter than that of a RAF officer - there has to be output from RMAS to keep this going and I don't know if this is included in the stats you quote.

G

[conysbe]

Haha that was very funny Oilcan, I left the RAF 12 years ago and you could see it heading that way then.
The comments would of been better placed in the 'RAF IN MELTDOWN' thread though..

[bayete]

In the beginning was the Plan and then came the Assumption.
And the Assumptions were without form, and the Plan was completely without substance, and darkness was upon the faces of the workers.
And they spoke amongst themselves saying, “It is a crock of sh1t, and it stinketh.”
And the workers went unto their supervisors and sayeth, “It is a pail of dung and none may abide the odor thereof.”
And the supervisors went unto their managers and sayeth unto them, “It is a container of excrement and it is very strong, such that none may abide by it.”
And the managers went unto their directors and sayeth, “It is a vessel of fertilizer, and none may abide its strength.”
And the directors spoke among themselves saying to one another, “It contains that which aids plant growth, and it is very strong.”
And the directors went unto their vice presidents to sayeth unto them, “It promotes growth and is very powerful.”
And the vice presidents went unto the president and sayeth unto him, “This new plan will actively promote the growth and efficiency of this company.” And the president looked upon the Plan, and saw that it was good.
And the Plan became Policy
And this is how Sh1t Happens.
I remember something similar on the wall of my section during my first tour edited to apply to the RAF chain of command, ring any bells?

[zedder]

When Sh1t is out of it's depth, it floats.
And this is how Air Rank Happens.

[flipster]

I found this version:

In the beginning was ‘Front Line First’,
And then came ‘Defence Costs Studies’.
After this, came the short term savings,
And the savings were completely without substance.
And darkness was on the face of the aircrew
And they spake unto their Sqn Bosses saying
“This is a crock of ****, and it stinketh.”
And the Bosses went to their Stn Cdrs and sayeth
“It is a pail of dung, and none may abide the odour thereof.”
And the Stn Cdrs went to the AOCs and sayeth unto them
“It is a vessel of fertiliser, and none may abide its strength.”
And the AOCs went to their AOCinCs and sayeth
“It contains that which aids plant growth, and it is very strong.”
And the AOCinCs went to the CAS and sayeth unto him
“It promoteth growth, and it is very powerful.”
And the CAS went to the Minister and sayeth
“The new initiatives are actually promoting the development and efficiency of the RAF, and they are strongly recommended.”
And the Minister looked upon the RAF, and saw it was good,
And then....... the Front Line was First to take its option.

The sad fact is that this happens all too often....arrgggghhh!!!.

[thing]

I'll just get rid of my posting reminder......
Don't let anyone try to sell you the old 'You don't know what it's like in civvy street, real workers have to work their bollox off blahdiblahdiblah'. I left 11 years ago and I look back upon (parts) of it as having an absurd dream like quality. Doing 36 hour shifts, then putting your neck on the line by signing off an a/c as being serviceable when you can barely remember what you did to it, or indeed if you did it. Working the same stupidly long hours and getting to SHQ at one minute past five to find they are closed, you all know the story, I guess it's even worse now.
Apart from the top class guys I worked with, there isn't one single little, tiny, microscopically tiny thing that I miss about being in the services. I now earn more money, I have holidays when I want them and a damn sight more than I got in the mob, and the best thing of all is....I can do exactly what I want, I no longer get the wife to answer the phone when it rings, I no longer have to disappear for months on end (the first time I went to the Falklands the locals thought I had left the wife and kids...and no one wanted to ask because they didn't want to embarrass her.....) and most importantly, if I do work hard or go away, it's because I've decided to....

Do you all remember what pit ponies were? They used to keep them underground and used them to pull coal tubs to the lift shafts. Every year, they would let them out for a week into a field where they were looked after. They used to go mad, leaping around an kicking with the joys of spring. I absolutely guarentee that it's exactly the same feeling once you leave the mob. You realise that a shadow has lifted that you didn't know was there.

[flipster]

Thing

Absolutely! I miss like crazy the really great people with whom I served but I am so glad I'm out - all the politics and back-biting are a thing of the past. Sure, 'politics' happen outside as well but no-one is asking me to get myself killed just to promote their career while telling me it is my duty to Serve God, Country, government or the 'greater good'.

The grass is a different shade of green but it is lush and long. However, my family is the main beneficiary of my improved lifestyle and hence we are all much happier.

It seems that, presently, loyalty in the Services is a one way street ....... and a juggernaut is coming towards you! I took the decision to get out of the way.

[thing]

Thing
Absolutely! I miss like crazy the really great people with whom I served but I am so glad I'm out - all the politics and back-biting are a thing of the past. Sure, 'politics' happen outside as well but no-one is asking me to get myself killed just to promote their career while telling me it is my duty to Serve God, Country, government or the 'greater good'.
The grass is a different shade of green but it is lush and long. However, my family is the main beneficiary of my improved lifestyle and hence we are all much happier.
It seems that, presently, loyalty in the Services is a one way street ....... and a juggernaut is coming towards you! I took the decision to get out of the way.


Hasn't it always been so? I went, without ever moaning (unlike some) to wherever I was sent. I did a good job, I never knowingley let the side down, I put in that bit extra. I knew what I wanted to do when I had finished my 22, and I knew I wanted to get the business off the ground before I left. So at about the 2 year point I went to see the chief clerk and asked if I was going to be sent away long term could I volunteer to do it now because if possible I wanted my final 12 months or so to be relatively hassle free. Note I said long term, I was still doing Aviano regularly and wasn't trying to shirk that responsibility. He made a few enquiries 'No, you'll be OK' he said in a nutshell. So 8 months before I'm due out, I'm in Norway (still being a good lad) and my OC rang me from UK to say I was going to the Falklands in two months.

I know they have every right to do whatever they want. I went, didn't complain, but from that day forth I'd finished with the Air Force. It was the only thing I ever asked for in 22 years, and they couldn't even manage that. I was supposed to have the 'leaving interview' with the CO before I was officially out, but I was never asked and I didn't bother asking why, not out of anger, I had already left in my head and thought it was a pointless exercise. I've no doubt it was a duty that he could do without as well. I went round with my blue card on the last day and clearly remember thinking that 22 years of service didn't even warrant a whisper from anybody. It was just a bit sad really. I felt betrayed deep down I think. Proabably shouldn't have been as bloody naieve to think that the services were 'different.' But there you go.

[flipster]

I suppose that the RAF has to get rid of most of us at/around our option points - otherwise there'd be too many 30 and 40 somethings and nowhere for the young thrusters to go. PMA must, therefore, spend an inordinate amount of time thinking up new ways to really p1ss us off!

Also, with overall numbers coming down, I presume they expect loads of us to leave in the next few years. However, they are probably a tad concerned that sooooo many are going.

Bizarrely, it would really screw up their calculations if everyone was to rescind their PVRs!!!!

The trouble is that PMA management (hahahaha) techniques worked when we were 60,000+ strong. As, however, we get down to 30,000ish and PMA miscalculate (as they may have done), then we could drop below critical mass and so implode!

[thing]

I presumed from your previous posts that you had already left?

[Samuel]

Just as a matter of interest, is there any evidence that anyone with any authority/interest reads Pprune, and these threads in particular?

If they do, how can anyone earning the kind of money they do for the supposed responsibility they carry not try to do something about it, or are they all totally without shame?

[flipster]

Thing,

Yes, I have - sorry! Obvious-like, me poor grammer be confustified you!

When I say "we", I infer that l have a great affinity and considerable empathy with those friends I left behind in the Service.




Sam,

It is a question that many often ask.........with only silence in answer! (see the 'Does Anyone Read Pprune?' thread)

[motley2]

As a new member here I couldn't agree more with all of the comments in this thread. Being in a job where I spent 150+ days away last year without doing without doing an OOA only to be sent to the FI's because my poster said that I need to up my profile???? Go figure...

Enough is enough...

Investors in people we ain't:=

[ZOFO]

Well,

After Just having spent two days with Mrs Zofo and Myself in trying to help as much as possible in a "Secondary Duty" passed to me by my "Lords and Masters" a couple of weeks ago, and of course trying to uphold my "Primary Duties" in the work place. Does any one else think that time is really running out on the patience of the good ol "Airman Stan" or "Cpl Yes Sir" "Suits you Sir" to carry out these tasks... I can honestly say that all I have met along the way is "Yes Sir my Troops will get it done" and a thought of "OH yes this will get me up the Commissioned Ladder" Well the time is running short and we are all getting P:mad: d off with all of this. I have enough trouble in keeping "My secondary duty in tow at the moment" with all the Dets and OOA ops at the moment. (I speak of course of my Wife, Kids etc). I may stand corrected but many a year ago troops would PVR because they could not stand/or had an issue with maybe their boss etc.. Nowadays it is quite shocking to find that the PVR is due to the whole way that the Armed Forces are treated nowadays (Airships can you not see this)
You Really are Blind!!

I dont want to say anymore as I have Had enough after another night getting in late (Read post time) due to Our Governments Lies about "Over Here"
</Patronise/Rant>