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green granite
20th Nov 2006, 08:57
from BBC news A search is under way for two ice climbers who have been missing overnight in the Cairngorms in "dreadful" weather conditions. The pair, who were climbing in the Coire an t-Sneachda area where there is waist high snow in some places, were last seen on Sunday afternoon. Full story here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/6164422.stm)




there are now 2 helicopters (rescue 137 & 138) and 2 MR teams risking their lives looking for them, in not very nice weather conditions.



One can only assume they had a death wish

419
20th Nov 2006, 09:07
what makes these people do it

It's either an IQ slightly lower than their age, or they believe that their hobby is more important than the safety of the people who have to go and rescue them.

IMO, any dangerous sport should require the participants to have valid insurance to pay for any rescues required, failing which, they should be required to reimburse the full cost involved.

stickandrudderman
20th Nov 2006, 09:14
IMO, any dangerous sport should require the participants to have valid insurance to pay for any rescues required, failing which, they should be required to reimburse the full cost involved.


You mean like they do in Skiing resorts?

419
20th Nov 2006, 09:16
You mean like they do in Skiing resorts

I don't do skiing. It's too cold, and too difficult for me, (Tried it once, and kept falling over) so I wouldn't know.

stickandrudderman
20th Nov 2006, 09:20
Whenever you go skiing it is recommended that you take out "winter sports" insurance.
If you have an accident on the mountain the first question you will be asked by your potential rescuers is "Do you have insurance?" If the answer is no they will then ask for a credit card, and if you can't produce that you're buggered!:bored:

Foss
20th Nov 2006, 09:55
I always take out insurance when I go skiing, the first aid guys do ask for it immediately, or a credit card and I can't pay 10,000 or whatever for a helicopter ride.
I'm also planning to go on a winter trip to the Cairngorms. But I have hundreds and hundres of pounds worth of stuff (why are you buying another flipping coat), my pal and I will make a plan,tell someone else that plan, and head out. Be methodical, stick to the plan.
So I must have a low IQ. :}
But there are some complete muppets out there. I've had to help people down who were wearing trainers and some crappy fleece in winter. Another guy whose mates had left him behind because he was too slow, he'd then hurt his back, no map, no food, no water. Also seen a woman descending a very steep bit of ground, carrying her gear, a sandwhich and a Mars Bar, in a shopping bag and that was a good five hours from anywhere.

As a sport, it's as safe as you make it.
Fos

tony draper
20th Nov 2006, 10:03
Hmmm, I suppose if one were in training to climb Everest or some such there would be little point in practicing climbing the tree at the bottom of one's garden,saying that one tends to agree,we have a nugget up here who keeps setting sail in a wee yacht who seems to need rescuing every time he leaves the piers,he disapeared from the news for a while and one assumed the silly fecker had drowned but no,he was on the local news again a couple of days ago being rescued.
I seem to recal Sir Francis Chichester came in for a lot of critisism for trying to sail round the world single handed when he was well past it and needing to be rescued.
Always struck me that there is a lot of selfishness involved in dangerous sports.
:cool:

green granite
20th Nov 2006, 10:09
my pal and I will make a plan,tell someone else that plan, and head out. Be methodical, stick to the plan.
So I must have a low IQ.

Thats fine Fos, I used to do the same but but would you go onto the mountains when there were severe weather warnings of storm force winds and snow? I wouldn't have done. That was the point of my original post.

eyeinthesky
20th Nov 2006, 10:37
QUOTE
they will then ask for a credit card, and if you can't produce that you're buggered
UNQUOTE

Seems a bit over-zealous... haven't you suffered enough pain already?:E

It's all right, I'll find my own way out...:=

Foss
20th Nov 2006, 14:40
Green Granite
I understand what you're getting at, but things can go pear shaped very quickly. I have gone out in storms you can lean against.
Another time I'd been climbing in Kerry with my brother and you could see the big horrible clouds forming lower down and coming towards you. So it was a matter of taking a bearing really quick and carrying on. After taking a picture of us both, my brother looking quite concerned, which is now on the wall in my folks house.

It's a matter of gathering experience. If you want to learn winter skills, you have to go out in winter. Learning from people who are better than you so you don't end as a paragraph in a newspaper.
As for being selfish, my friends have discussed this a lot. Hours and hours and hours of walking for 5-10 minutes at the top before you're freezing and have to leave while wife and kids are at home.
What for, the view? Often you can't see anything, othertimes it's beautiful.
Memories that you can share with your friends. That's why I guess.
Fos

Tricky Woo
20th Nov 2006, 15:28
Swiss egg-whisk mountain rescue teams don't ask yer for an insurance policy. They just send yer a bill afterwards. About CHF 1,200, which is 500 quid, by the way. I coughed up.

TW

Flip Flop Flyer
20th Nov 2006, 15:37
Two mates of mine have had injuries in the Austrian Alps. None of them was asked any questions about insurance or finance before they made it to the hospital. Austria is, after all, a civilized country - they'll rescue and attend to you before asking you to cough up. I cannot vouch for other alpine areas.

As for paying to get rescued, yup, that's done in my home country. Mainly owing to Germans who have only every done windsurfing on a lake, thinking that the North Sea would be much the same. Having drifted off for a while, a distressed family member will contact the plod. A hellachopper will be dispatched, pick up distressed windsurfer (sans surfboard - no matter how much the rescuee cries over the loss of a rather expensive piece of kit) and fly to the nearest hospital. A bill will be produced, payable either in cash, by plastic or via an insurance. If no money, card or insurance - fine, they'll get an invoice and a period of time to settle same. If no money by end of period, invitation to attend a court of law will be issued. The invoice option is only open to countries with which DK has an agreement that local courts will collect the outstanding amount. In those cases rescuee will be held in hospital/jail until such time the fee is paid. Confiscating cars as a bond has happened on occasions. I belive the policy is "you screw up - you pay". Seems fair to me.

Danish citizens are rescued free of charge, under the policy that they pay taxes and thus have already financed the rescue service.

Your average North Sea hellachopper rescue runs around DKK 40.000 (around EUR 5.400). Quite steep, even if you do get a chance to ride in a brand new EH101.

jethro15
20th Nov 2006, 15:55
A search is under way for two ice climbers who have been missing overnight in the Cairngorms in "dreadful" weather conditions.
BBC now reporting that both climbers have since died.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/6164422.stm

tony draper
20th Nov 2006, 16:14
How much did they bill yer for the Morphine Mr Woo,? one recals you enjoyed that and held it was worth a broken leg just for that alone never mind the helicopter ride.
:rolleyes:

Foss
20th Nov 2006, 17:35
jesus, that's awful that they died, I haven't seen any tv news yet. Appears they weren't too far away from help. Crap.
RIP
Not much more you can say.
Fos

AcroChik
20th Nov 2006, 19:27
I'm sorry these fellows died. I think of it as a risk they voluntarily assumed. One looks at the environment, takes a census of one's skills, and decides to proceed, or not. Aviaton presents similar audits.

green granite
20th Nov 2006, 20:11
It is indeed sad that they died. My thoughts when I started this thread were, why when there were severe weather warnings issued do people ignore them, Fos has partly answered that but surely responsible people would not have gone given those warnings, after all no pilot would take off if all the airfields within his a/c's endurance were socked in the hope he might make it would they?

er340790
20th Nov 2006, 20:42
Tragic and very reminiscent of another near miss. Some years back my cousin, a Geology student also at Aberdeen Uni, was ice-climbing with 2 friends in the Cairngorms. Late on a November Sunday evening as they descended in a gale, he thought he heard a weak whistle - decided that they should check it out and found an injured solo climber who had fallen 200' that morning and was in a very bad state with broken limbs and hypothermia. (The idiot hadn't even told anyone where he was going.)

They did everything by the book. Cousin stayed with him and got him into an emergency sleeping bag for warmth, while the two others went for help. Took the mountain rescue another 3 hours to reach them and get them to safety. The search team leader was categoric that the solo climber would have died that night without their help.

Did the guy ever thank his rescuers? No.

Despite that. it's always good to know there are those ready to risk themselves to help save others.

Loose rivets
20th Nov 2006, 21:09
So where has the darey-do spirit gone? The explorers of old wouldn't expect to be rescued, what's the world coming to.

"We'll have a daring adventure today...as long as it's safe." Pah! I say, or even Pish! for the real namby-pambies.

I wonder if the RNLI would charge a Danish sailor in his little boat. Dark grey sea splashing over the gunwales. "Ah, there you are. Will it be cash or Visa?" I don't think so.

Most of the crew that I knew, did it for love. They wanted nothing more than to be promoted from "launcher" ? to full crew. You never saw people cycle so fast as when the maroons SP? went off. Total dedication.

There should be an option. If you wear flame red, you do NOT want to be helped. It would up the anti on the excitement scale somewhat.

HGFC1
20th Nov 2006, 22:49
Did the guy ever thank his rescuers? No.
Sadly this attitude isn't confined to climbers and walkers. A few months ago I needed the help of D&D when I found myself lost and my radio malfunctioned. Some weeks later I was able to visit D&D to thank those who helped me out. I took a few goodies with me and was appalled to learn that very few of those helped by D&D ever bother to even lift the telephone receiver and make a short call to say "Thank you" let alone send a card or anything else. Perhaps in some cases it is embarrassment at having needed their services. I don't know. Maybe it is simply a selfish attitude - who can tell? I do know I was extremely grateful for the help I received. I also know that a word of thanks costs nothing but can mean a great deal to those who have made an effort to help.