Type rated recruitment vs non-type rated

[Phil Brockwell]

A bit of a survey here, we are buying a cuple of CJ 525's for AOC work. My question relates to the difference I would expect to pay (salary not day rates) for a type rated captain and FO in comparison to non-type rated pilots with the relevent experience to fill each position directly.

Phil

[LRdriver II]

Same damn salary I should hope... only difference being that the untyped guys after getting typed might have a training bond. ALso dont be a pikey and let somebody pay for their own type. Get a good person in, pay to type him/her.

[Phil Brockwell]

LRDriver,

This has nothing to do with the age old "paying for a type rating", however, any sensible operator with the option of outlaying capital to train crews with a bond or not outlaying capital to train crews would take a type rated captain with experience on type over a non-type rated guy, assuming all other variables were equal.

I think your point is flawed. The costs of taking on non-type rated crews are greater than the cost of taking on type rated crews, therefore isn't it in the interests of the crews to be paid more if they have experience on type.

You are looking at this from a "glass half empty" perspective. It is not that we would pay less for a non-type rated crew, but that we would pay more for a type rated crew because it reduces costs.

Phil

[Panama Jack]

All very valid points Phil Brockwell.

However, isn't an industry practice like this encouraging people to jump ship for a better offer once they have the experience?

At my current employer, I came on board as a non-type rated pilot. Type Rated and Non-Type Rated pilots get the same pay, the only difference being that I have a three-year bond.

My loyalty is there because there is no "two-class" system, I get treated the same way as those who flew the same type before, and the three-year bond is a non-issue to me because I plan to stay long term (read that to mean "make a career out of it").

I think even despite the initial expenditure for the initial type rating, my employer gets good value for his money even if only over three years, because they can bet I will be around for at least that time. In any case, recurrency training is expensive also and becomes a consistant cost (for previously type rated and for inital) soon after the initial type.

Some additional food for thought.

[His dudeness]

IMO you could "seperate" them by having a payscheme that considers experience on type and length of employment with your company. Start with a decent pay, get more and more the longer you stay...start a little higher if you come with experience on type (this guy could be e.g. supervisor immediately, which should be worth something)

a) If it pays to stay, most folks will (provide you are a not using the average slavedriving tactics - see b)). Bears the risk, that the guys you wouldn´t like stay will stick like glue...

b) Don´t undercrew, stick to your word and let the guys have PREDICTABLE rest - in other words a roster - than you way better than the most other outfits and the pilots CAN stay without loosing their social contacts etc.

[TheRednosedReindeer]

It all comes down to accepting, that pilots are human beings too. As it seems, the majority of corporate operaators are just ignorant about this fact. That's why every time I talk to collegues, they say "business aviation? forget it!"

Cheers!!

[Phil Brockwell]

Ok, back to the point in hand, not that I'm not gratefull for your valuable A level management tips.

His Dudeness, my question was based on the assumption that longevity of service and experience = more money, my question was HOW MUCH MORE?

Phil

[His dudeness]

well well well...stupid me. "valuable A level management tips" thanks for the roses - I just had to get it off my chest...sorry Phil.

Since I´m german (the sausage side of the fence...) and don´t know really what the needs in UK are (paywise) I´ll tell you what I think is okay for my place.

For a Captain I´d figure that I´d pay 500€ a month more "for the rating" and I´d up that by 200€ for every 500 hrs on the type. I´d cut that at 2500hrs top, so max "experience" would be 1000€.

Fo F/O´s, cut it by 40% and it should be okay too.

Hope that helps...

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Phil

What could be an idea is this. If you ever see any public service jobs they always advertise a range of salries for the same position.

Captain C525 - 45-52k depending on experience. I think thats fairly representative considering what that lot in Cambridge are paying.

Typically 45k for one of the (or a) more experienced B200 guy(s) who you have had to type or £52 ish for a grey haired old git who's typed with CJ time and has got a CJ inside a horseshoe tattooed behind his ears....

Also

Type rating preferred or provided for an exceptional applicant.

The wording of this last sentence will reduce the hit and hoper CV senders who think that because you have placed an advert in Flight means that you have three days in a row to peruse CV's

One other consideration is an optional signing on fee of say £1500 for type rated people who should they leave within two years have to pay it back from final leaving salary. Its just enough to focus peoples mind and little enough to be worthwhile doing as opposed to handing over £15,000 to June Spencer and the Hilton at Wichita!

Besides you could always clone Barnesy another time , I'm sure there was three of him running around last summer..... :E

[TheOtherSide]

Oh No 3 X Mkb Could You Imagine It!!!!

[TFE731]

Phil

I think you are a little too focus on the RATING.

Would you really pay a 2000hr captain with a rating and 50 hrs on type more than a 5000hr captain with 3000hrs on something similar but no type?

I would put the range between £45k and £55k depending on experience, not just type.

Remember a cheep badly done type rating can be worse than no rating at all.

TFE731

[Phil Brockwell]

That's more like it. Sorry for the caustic sarcasm, but didn't want this serious question to degenerate into a free for all on how management and pilots should interract.

My simple maths go along the lines of a tR is 15k so pay 5k less than a type rated Cpt for 3 years?

We tried the cloning thing but it failed at the medical when they couldn't find a heartbeat????

Good input everyone, thanks.

And a few good CV's came through the email so saved me the cost of an advert anyway....

[LRdriver II]

Hmm..except if you underpay a pilot you will find they will split as soon as they get offerd a better paid when they get experience in type. So why not just hire the "right person" pay the normal salary from the go?

Loyalty goes both ways, you know..

I agree with TFE731, an unrated captain with good previous experience is better than a typed 300hr newbie.

[Phil Brockwell]

Really, there isn't an angle here. This is not about underpaying, overworking or underappreciating anyone. Simply about how much extra, over and above the "normal" acceptable salary cemensurate with....blah blah a pilot with a type rating would consider fair as a starting salary. Thereafter it becomes a question of management and pilots agreement on performance.

LRdriver, are you suggesting that I only pay a type rated pilot the normal salary instead of more for saving me the cost of a type rating.

Phil

[erikv]

Phil

What about the same realistic pay for both with a three-year bond for the non-rated pilot and a loyalty bonus approaching the cost of a rating after three years for the rated one?

Fair to both - they're earning the same for doing the same job (and a said earlier the non-rated pilot may have more valuable experience), but at the same time you would reward loyalty. For the company it is still advantageous to get the rated guy, because you can postpone the 15k investment for three years.

Erik

[PPRuNe Towers]

Could it be what you are missing from the pilot input Phil is that every one of them is talking about how to improve the success rate in getting a long term pilot employee in an incredibly volatile market?

You are trying to improve and develop your market knowledge yet accurately playing to the stereotype of manager knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Why not switch off the sarcasm rays and go back to listening mode. You are getting valuable information, in particular, from the posts you are instinctively putting down.

Regards
Rob

[caramel]

Why not go to the states to have your crew type rated it'l cost around £10k I know of a few operators who do this which'll save you another £5k

[CPL_Ace]

What about a fresh new pilot who'll work for the flying, not the money and who will then aspire to the salaries of other pilots in the company over a long period. Not some 18 year old who'll jump ship in 3 years but say - oh I don't know - a married 30+ year old who'll settle down and work his way through the ranks as he's done all his life looking for stability in his career
Then perhaps you could adopt some of the conditions expected by all of the airlines that wannabes encounter. Bonded type ratings etc.

You'd get an enthusiastic, blank canvas who's main concern wouldn't be his next pay rise but his next chance to go flying.

Too cheeky??

[LRdriver II]

Jeez.. Why dont you go jump off a pier, instead of prostituting yourself and the profession.
At that rate there will be NO salary ever to aspire to or job "stability" to attain if you approach your new chosen career and fellow aviator collegues with such contemptable disrespect.

[CPL_Ace]

An idea that went too far! My apologies. But my original intention was to ask why "Newbe with 300 hours" isn't an option. If they are really worth that little, (and we are - most of my pier buddies agree) does that not imply that the more hours you have, the more you should be worth?

[LRdriver II]

No probs CPL.. we get a bit annoyed when wannabes show up and sell their kidneys to fly a shiney, pretty jet...all for free. Too many operators abuse this passion for flight, so you'd only get fired if you start demanding stuff as there is usually another freebie pilot to take your seat.
Anyhoo, the answer is that there is no reason NOT to get a 300hr pilotwho has done an MCC course and an F/O typerating. Basically the CJ is a good airplane to start with as your first jet and there is no need for idiot operators to deny young guns the chance to get their foot on the ladder. Its a good aircraft to cut your teeth on before transitioning to heavier/faster jets that involve ops outside of Europe.
If you have the aptitude to pass a sim course and have a good personality then you are well qualified to fly as FO irrespective what other muppets say.

[Phil Brockwell]

This idiot operator is in business and the insurance increase for a 300 hr newbie makes it not a particularlt attractive proposition. Also due to the fact that we are hoping for more aircraft of the same type next year, someone approaching command-able makes good business sense for us.

This muppet also considers it a more important roll as part of a team than simply being able to pass a swimming test and have a good personality. Don't sell the FO roll short, every member of the team is important, if not, why bother having one.

Phil

[LRdriver II]

Mr Brockwell,
My comments are not aimed at you but the industry in general. In the US, yes the insurers call the shots but in Europe the operator tells them what THEY want.
Also I am not selling the FO short, he is indeed a very important key to a safe operation and with the right training, as we see with ab initio airline cadets, a low timer can drop into the seat and function as a crew member. Basically a CJ is not the worlds most complicated jet and hence a good aircraft to fly as a first jet. Also it is designed as a single pilot aircraft so to augment the cockpit with another pilot will only make things safer. You also need to make sure that a crew work together with good personality to attain maximum communication..hence the good persoanlity comment.
By all means hire and PAY the kind mr CPL-ace as he can be rated and will stick with your operation as he considers himself in the mature end of applicants. Just be fair and hire somebody and pay them a reasonable salary and treat them fairly. Another reason to hire him is that any young guy sees the CJ as a steppingstone to a larger aircraft so if you give them enough reasons to stay (good terms and nice salary) they most likely will.
Besides, the job market is hot now for typerated guys so you might have to accept defeat and hire a lowtimer and rate him to fly with an experienced captain.
But hey, you are management...so re-inventing the wheel and never leaning from history is your forte

[Phil Brockwell]

LRDRiver,

"you are management...so re-inventing the wheel and never leaning from history is your forte"
Your assumptions are based on what? You seem to know how I run my business, how I treat my team and what criteria we have chosen to recruit staff.
You assume that I would consider type rating a low-timer defeat? Why?
This is about building the best team I can, not about nickel and diming over a few grand on a type rating. Those of you that know me should know better that I would never degrade customer service for want of a few grand.
This thread has served it's purpose, even if mainly through PM's, would suggest we let it die.
Phil