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sailor
19th Nov 2006, 15:38
With the (supposed) oil shortage and probable global-warming problems the future for the car must be an alternative drive/fuel system; hybrids already and expensively starting to appear.
I am no engineer and know that one cannot get anything for nothing and perpetual-motion is a vain hope but..............
the car has 4 wheels(mostly!) which could be adapted to drive an alternator each to produce the electric juice required to power the single electric drive motor, probably through a battery which could be bypassed, and the roof has one or more wind driven generators/alternators fitted to provide yet more juice so that the faster you go the more power is provided to the "engine" until you reach Mach crit, or the state where power can no longer overcome friction/drag.
Simplistic and obviously not viable, but why not?????:ok:

Takes hardhat and spanner for fast exit: and fire-extinguisher to deal with the flames in which I am about to be shot down!

allan907
19th Nov 2006, 15:45
Road works, traffic lights, give way and stop junctions and pedestrian crossings to name but five. Never get up to critical mach number:{

G-CPTN
19th Nov 2006, 16:02
http://www.blert.net/rhoderally/i/cars/aerocar.jpg

tony draper
19th Nov 2006, 17:15
Talking to a Auto Engineer once and one put forward the idea of a heavy flywheell that would spin up and absorb the energy that is wasted when braking ,then would release said energy back to the wheels when accelerating away again,he told me such a vehicle had been tried and indeed he had owed a car with such a system,the downside being it used to frighten the lives out of peeps on zebra crossing ect because as one pulled up to allow them to cross the flywheel spinning up sounded as if he was reving the engine with the intent of charging forward and running the zebra crossing users down.
:uhoh:

G-CPTN
19th Nov 2006, 17:45
The lads at Leyland were working on a flywheel system over a decade ago - it involved a high speed flywheel running in a (reinforced) enclosure (possibly in an inert gas or semi-vacuum).
I've tried a Googoo search but with no success so far.

brain fade
19th Nov 2006, 17:49
Sounds a bit like regenerative braking......as used on electric trains.

Grainger
19th Nov 2006, 17:59
All well and good until you have a smash-up and the flywheel breaks loose :eek:

Imagine that thing spun up with 200 miles' worth of energy breaking free and careening up the high street. The opportunities for mayhem are endless.

At least if your petrol (or hydrogen) tank blows, you just get a single explosion in one place.

sailor
19th Nov 2006, 18:02
C.mon guys - concentrate!!!

Its the electrics not mechanics problem we need to solve here.

Get it right, and I am prepared to share the fortune I will accrue from this blinding glimpse of the obvious solution to the motor/fossil-fuel problem.

How many wind-generators do we need on the roof (no convertibles here!) for maximum effect, minimum airflow interference throughout the speed range. Do we need a tall,high roof-rack for another layer. At max speed will we be generating enough power to sell to the National Grid and can we do that on the move via a Bluetooth transfer system or do I need to keep off the red medicine?

High Wing Drifter
19th Nov 2006, 18:04
Didn't the a hybrid version of the Panoz Le Mans coupe racer use brake energy to do something like charge batteries or something?

tony draper
19th Nov 2006, 18:05
Hmmm, yer easy beat, make the flywheel out of Mercury,stir up a liquid rather than spin up a solid .
:rolleyes:

MSP Aviation
19th Nov 2006, 19:08
ford was messin around with an F-150 a while back that used hydraulic fluid to store braking energy and convert it into acceleration... perhaps through rotary hydraulic pumps?

Grainger
19th Nov 2006, 19:16
How many wind-generators do we need on the roof (no convertibles here!) for maximum effectB&Q are currently selling wind turbines (at £1500 quid a pop :eek:) that make - at best - a measly 1kW. The irony of having them on sale next to 500W "security" lamps and 2kW electric heaters was, of course, lost on the B&Q employee trying to extoll their virtues.

Anyway, to power even a fairly modest car you'd need 50 to 75 of these things working full pelt. Rather more than you could fit on top of your car methinks, and that's before we even start going into increased drag etc.

brain fade
19th Nov 2006, 19:36
The more wind gennies you put on the roof........the more drag the car will have.

The more drag it has........the more power it will need. etc etc ad infinitum.:ooh:

The real question is, if it were fixed to a fuggin conveyer belt, would it take orf?;)

G-CPTN
19th Nov 2006, 19:43
Sadly, whenever energy is converted there is inefficiency which loses some of the value. Likewise during storage, no system is 100% efficient.
'Creating' energy (from mass called fuel) also has its losses (some methods more than others).
Electric vehicles powered by electricity originally supplied from the mains suffers from conversional losses as well as losses during generation of the original power, so in many respects the best solution is direct conversion from fuel to energy in the vehicle itself. Even the fuel cell requires hydrogen (or whatever) to be manufactured, as it isn't a naturally occurring element (electrolysis from water requires electricity, which has itself to be generated beforehand). What the fuel cell is doing is to recombine the elements of hydrogen and oxygen into electricity and water, so it's not difficult to see that it's not a perfect reaction when looked at overall.
As sailor says, you can't get something for nothing.

However, as ani fule kno, no power (other than the effect of gravity on a mass) is needed for downhill travel, so why not arrange for all journeys to be downhill? Just think of the savings in energy (and pollution). Make all hills one-way (we might need the help of Escher here).

Sorted!

http://britton.disted.camosun.bc.ca/escher/waterfall.jpg

Pancake
19th Nov 2006, 19:49
However, as ani fule kno, no power (other than the effect of gravity on a mass) is needed for downhill travel, so why not arrange for all journeys to be downhill? Just think of the savings in energy (and pollution). Make all hills one-way (we might need the help of Escher here).
Sorted!It's all right for you blokes what live on the tops, just spare a thought for us poor sods in the vallies...
P. :cool:

G-CPTN
19th Nov 2006, 19:58
Just build your roads like this:-
http://www.psicologi-psicoterapeuti.it/psychofun/images/escher.jpg

barit1
19th Nov 2006, 20:20
I once had the brilliant idea that when testing a turboprop or turboshaft engine, instead of using a waterbrake dummy load (or the like), couple the turbine to an electrical generator and get some useful Kilowatt-hours recovery. Modern solid-state frequency and phase conversion should make this a no-brainer for coupling to the mains.

I submitted this idea to my management - they thought it was a marvelous idea. They paid me off with dinner for two at the finest seafood place in town - then proceded to drop the whole idea. :rolleyes:

evansb
19th Nov 2006, 21:01
Problem: Short battery life, (limited range).

Solution (interim): Have filling stations located every 50 km., just like the old days , but this time they supply RECHARGED BATTERIES. While you are there, grab a fresh cup of coffee and a sweet roll, check the air in the tyres, and clean the windscreen. Perhaps buy a lottery ticket where the proceeds go to infrastructure, such as roads, bridges, and schools.

The "filling stations" would recharge the batteries via solar panels and wind mills. No sun or wind? Coal generated electricity with efficient scrubbers have been available for over ten years now, but vastly under-utilized. Keep in mind the batteries also contain many recyclable materials.

This solution wouldn't end our oil dependancy, but would reduce it a great deal.

tony draper
19th Nov 2006, 21:09
Or of course we could bring back the horse,even more efficient than yer bicycle is yer horse.:ok:

green granite
19th Nov 2006, 21:14
solar powered race across Australia.

more here (http://www.speedace.info/solar_cars.htm)




http://www.speedace.info/speedace_images/Denis_Bartel_and_Noel_Fullarton_Alice_Springs.jpg

G-CPTN
19th Nov 2006, 21:41
Or of course we could bring back the horse,even more efficient than yer bicycle is yer horse.:ok:
AND the exhaust products are recyclable!

tony draper
19th Nov 2006, 22:05
And nothing epitomises the combination of form function and beauty more than Dobbin,yer Lamborgini Diablo or Ferrari are nought but shabby pieces of bashed tin compared to the lines of yer horse.
:rolleyes:

G-CPTN
19th Nov 2006, 22:12
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c19/GroupCaptain/WestForthdray2006.jpg

speedrestriction
19th Nov 2006, 22:59
the car has 4 wheels(mostly!) which could be adapted to drive an alternator each to produce the electric juice required to power the single electric drive motor,

Sorry, it doesn't work. Have you ever picked up an alternator? By and large they are chuffing heavy. Have you ever tried to spin an alternator by hand? Yeah, pretty easy. Have you ever tried to spin an alternator by hand while it is under load? Not so easy. You can only get out what you put in. In fact you'll always get a bit less out than you put in due to inefficiencies (friction in the bearings, heating losses etc).

In short: it takes more energy to drive the alternators than you'll ever get back out of them.....there is no such thing as a free lunch.

sr

woolyalan
19th Nov 2006, 23:11
If your worried about cars and the whole global warming thing...

sell your car, buy a boat :)

barit1
19th Nov 2006, 23:12
...
In short: it takes more energy to drive the alternators than you'll ever get back out of them.....there is no such thing as a free lunch.
sr

Unless, of course, you implement my patented Perpetual Motion protocol. I'll offer it to you, provided you send me your bank account numbers... :}

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
20th Nov 2006, 00:30
If you had it, you wouldn't need them. :=

tony draper
20th Nov 2006, 00:57
When you think about it science fiction has made a right arse of their predictions,by now they had us traveling in robot cars in glass tubes strung way above the city streets, most of them missed puter and mobile phone technology and the IT revolution altogether,although to tell the truth I dunno exactly what the IT revolution is.
:rolleyes:

Arm out the window
20th Nov 2006, 01:07
That's when the oppressed masses rise up and smash the corrupt computer-driven 'my-toy's-no-good-cos-it's-more-than-six-months-old' system, put all the plastic boxes up against the wall and shoot 'em, then start using paper and pencils again.

Loose rivets
20th Nov 2006, 02:43
One was sitting in traffic trying to remain calm. I realized how lucky I'd been, so much of my driving done on empty roads at night. The words of Spike came to mind...well, they're my words, but with his voice.

"I feel sorry for all these people...they all want to be somewhere else."

Every single solitary person you see on the roads, wants to be somewhere else...that's terrible. How can we have let this happen?

Now that I don't have to be anywhere, I often found myself (okay a tense problem, but just ignore it.) ...at the pub with me bike parked outside. (I only go at lunch time.) On the way home I would call in the local garage to chat to my old class-mate. EDIT...I have to paint the picture cos it's nice. An old forge turned into a tractor garage, with everything just as it was when I was at school. I'm sure that one of the Morris Minor nuts lying beside a pre-war pillar drill, is one that I lost from my car when I worked on it in there. One day, my pal pointed to the front wheel of a car and said,

"I've always said that it's a waste!!!"
"What?"
"That wheel spinning free and all the energy wasted."

I laughed and looked for a grin to appear on his face. (Where else?) It didn't. He was really concerned about the wasted energy of the front wheels. He was about to retire so there was no point in a lecture about...well, anything really. As I cycled home I wondered just how many people have put a fridge in the middle of a room and opened the door to help cool the room down. It wouldn't have fooled Stephen Hawking...he's a wizz at thermodynamics, but I guess that it would have fooled my old friend.

Getting back to being elsewhere. Travel, has made travel necessary.

It's true. The only reason that I need to go anywhere, is cos years ago I went somewhere. We had decided to visit the kid's aunt in America and now, my children and grand-children are split apart by an ocean, and of course I want to see them. Bugger!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hate travel. Sodding airports, bloody planes...all being inefficient all over the place. Why can't we just stay put?

Some of my richest friends have done just that. Done up old houses, turned them into flats etc etc...some of these guys have string that runs out before the next village. They never go anywhere but sailing on the backwaters, wild-fowling (whatever that is) walks on the beach, and they have TIME. I spent nearly an hour chatting to folk on the way to the pub—all two of them, they had time.

What has this got to do with energy? Well, if yer don't know, better be off, and get started working on the plans for saving on the obscene amount of fuel that you will burn this year. A little generator on this, and a little battery on that...oh, and while yer at it, put a propellor on yer hat, like the dopy kids in 50s American comics, you'll find that'll help.

er340790
20th Nov 2006, 03:02
Just engaged my zero improbability drive and popped to next Saturday to check on the weather. Sadly forgot to check lottery numbers while I was there.....

con-pilot
20th Nov 2006, 04:06
Sadly forgot to check lottery numbers while I was there.....
Today 20:43

Hey no problem, I did, here they are;

12-24-29-34-51, powerball 40.

I'll take 30%.

Thanks.

BlueWolf
20th Nov 2006, 04:38
I think perpetual motion is possible, and I think over-unity motors are possible. Some people claim to have built them. I don't know whether that's happened or not, but I do believe it will, at some point in time, when we understand enough of what we don't yet know, but believe we do, about the conventions of physics which we currently term "laws".

Tesla developed a way of transmitting electricity through the air, much like radio waves, using the earth itself as part of the circuit. Maybe that could be revisited, bypassing the need for batteries altogether. What the EMR from such a system might do to people, plants, animals etc, I have no idea, but from what I've read, I believe the system would have worked.

In the meantime, feedback and recovery systems don't have to be 100% efficient to be able to make some degree of contribution. I have seen "science fair" type prizes awarded to models for energy conservation including micro-generators on domestic water taps (gravity-fed systems only), and water pre-heating coils inserted in shower drains.

I think we can be far more creative than we've been with energy so far, but not if we stay blinkered by scientific dogma and ego, and not while we're not thinking laterally.

Loose rivets
20th Nov 2006, 05:31
Oh, and while I'm at it...and before the vino wears off...my science master of the 50s, told me about the flywheels in Swiss busses. Flippin' ek....keep up. What's the point of inventing things if you youngsters can't read up on stuff.

**** I'm Pi-sed tonight. :E

Buster Hyman
20th Nov 2006, 05:32
Stuff the electric car, my moneys on that conveyor belt concept! I've already bought a deck chair!:ok:

Loose rivets
20th Nov 2006, 05:33
Yeeeeeaaaah!!! That!!!




Oh fcuk...120 seconds must be up by now.:hmm:


See...see, it was. Is one allowed to be pi-sed on a Sunday night?

Loose rivets
20th Nov 2006, 05:36
I think perpetual motion is possible,

You would...if you had just had the curried beans that I had...:}

Lon More
20th Nov 2006, 06:01
G-CPTN Dept. for Transport (http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_026804-08.hcsp) link here to the Leyland project

BlueWolf
20th Nov 2006, 06:37
Damn straight. I belive matter transference is (or will be) possible too, and guess what, there have already been some initial successes at an experimental level. As I understand it, the Aussies were responsible - a laser beam being "teleported" between two cubicles a metre apart in a physics lab. Who knows, in a hundred years or less, it may be commonplace. Ditto invisibility, bending of light and so forth.

Not so sure about time travel. Don't really know what time is.

As for That Other Matter...we can go back to it if you wish, but the result, ultimately, will be the same. ;)

You start.

ORAC
20th Nov 2006, 07:42
And nothing epitomises the combination of form function and beauty more than Dobbin,yer Lamborgini Diablo or Ferrari are nought but shabby pieces of bashed tin compared to the lines of yer horse.

One is reminded of the story who was being regaled as too the great advantages of the new tractor over his horses. After the demonstration he was asked if he had any question. Taking his straw from his mouth, and after some thought, he asked, "How often do it foal...."

Broadcast power Mr TW? Not a problem, that´s how it would get down from solar powersats, by microwave transmission. But directionally to a receiver farm - tis the inverse square law that´s the b*gger......

Impress to inflate
20th Nov 2006, 09:16
On the thread of using spinning up a gyro as a means of slowing a car down then using the energy stored to accelerate it again, surly having a spinning gyro in a car would great in a straight line but CRAP at cornering.

Windy Militant
20th Nov 2006, 09:27
Pah! With their usual Gaulic flair the French have come up with the solution.

The Compresed air car (http://www.theaircar.com/)

The idea of using moored barges to use tidal flow to provide compressed air is quite neat. No problems with precession either. :ok:

tony draper
20th Nov 2006, 09:53
One used to instal the modern version of the pneumatic tube systems in places like Sainsburys,you know those brass tubes they had in the old co-op stores,the man at the till put yer money and bill in a little tube shoved it into the pipe and off it shot to the office upstairs,and you change and divy ticket returned lickety split.
Alway struck one as how efficient it was,a large sainsburies store with twenty checkouts was powered by what amounted to a wee motor from a hoover,all it did was create a small vacuum int pipe and atmospheric pressure did all the work,the carrier travelled at amazing speed,some of the pipe runs from till to cash office musta been quarter of a mile and the carrier would do that in about three seconds.
How about ten foot diameter tube underground from say Newcastle to london,powered in a similar fashion?it could carry goods or people.
:rolleyes:

ORAC
20th Nov 2006, 10:08
IIRC they used to have one in London Mr D. Got the book at home. Ahh, the wonders of Google - The London Pneumatic Despatch Company (http://www.capsu.org/history/pneumatic_despatch.html)

tony draper
20th Nov 2006, 10:40
The stuff installed in the afore mentioned Sainsburys was just a 80mm tube one way systems, we did larger 120 mm systems that were multi directional stations could both send and recieve and the carriers could be switched to different destinations via diverters,all controled by them silicon chip thingies of course,very versatile it were.
One thinks the idea of a people carrying pneumatic system has merit.
:cool:

Windy Militant
20th Nov 2006, 11:46
Nah, What you want's a Vacuum Train (http://davidszondy.com/future/Living/subtrains.htm) Actually there's some spiffy future transport schemes on this site. I like the Roller Ball thingy:ok:

daedalus
20th Nov 2006, 18:02
Any engineers out there who can help?
It has always puzzled me that diesel-electric technology hasn't been used in cars/road transport.
Smallish diesel engine, running at constant revs generating electricity used to power electic motors on all four wheels. Electric motor = rotor and stator therefore can be built into wheels.
Automatic 4 wheel drive, no need for: gearbox/differential/c.v. joints.
In days gone by the electrics and switchgear might have been simply too heavy and bulky, but surely not now with microchips and such it should be possible with much less weight.

What's wrong with the idea?

:8

daedalus
20th Nov 2006, 18:18
Dear Windy Militant.

I have been to the factory, met Guy Negre the engineer and been driven around the site in an aircar. It works!

For years now the air car has been promised, it has so far not materialised as a production-line product.

I don't know why, but would love to. Guy Negre is a qualified motor engineer of the highest calibre, I do not believe he is either a fool or a crook, nor do i think he is deluded. Many people would like his concept to become marketable reality.

In the political context i have tried to interest the "Greens' in the concept. their reaction was twofold and IMHO stupid and predictable. They said:
1) We are not interested in a car that is fuelled by Nuclear electricity!
2) The concept only transfers the pollution from local level (i.e. town centres where children breathe in fumes) to power stations which push out CO2 into the atmosphere from high chimneys. (Where the exhaust fumes can be scrubbed).

The "Greens", IMHO, are the only species on the planet who believe that nothing is better than half a loaf.

I would love to see the Aircar succeed. i would buy one (or first rent one) if it were ever produced in series. The exhaust is COLD breathable ( I have breathed it) air, which would cool down city centres, where global warming is greatest. The idea is brilliant, the local factory model is built, near Nice, the car works. The 3 seater is a superb urban runabout idea - most car journeys are less than 10 miles.

Why isn't it in production????


:ugh:

jumpuFOKKERjump
20th Nov 2006, 22:55
The flywheel & hydraulic storage devices sound fiendishly dangerous in a car crash. Imagine the flywheel bursting out of the wreckage when the bearings are deformed by impact. It could still be vaporising kiddies a kilometer away!

The diesel electric truck is here, or is rather there, in Japan. Been there since 2003. Similar model being released here in Oz shortly.

http://www.hino.co.jp/e/pressrelease/detail.php?id=62

http://jumpufokkerjump.googlepages.com/dieselelectric.jpg

Our family car is a Toyota Prius & it has the regenerative braking you are after. I go down a hill the starter motor runs backwards and charges the 200V Lithium Ion battery in the back. I stop at a traffic light and the engine stops and the aircon is run from the battery. When I take off I'm initially on the electric motor powered by the battery until the petrol motor can be arsed to start itself and help. You don't need an alternator on each wheel to regenerate, any more than you 'need' to power all the wheels to make the car move to begin with.

See some facts about how the system works here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prius

I just went out and checked and there are no windmills on the roof, but they would play havoc with the cd... Here is a link to a guy who has installed solar cells and extra batteries in an early Prius. You would need to know what you were doing though, my service agent whispered about a grey-import Prius rendered completely inert. The first thing they notice is the battery compartment is open and there are extra (fried) wires coming out of it...

http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=898

http://www.evworld.com/images/slapp_eprius.jpg

The future you are after is here, ask your governments why this technology is not COMPULSORY:ok:

Windy Militant
21st Nov 2006, 00:32
Hello daedalus,
How was the drive? The early models were apparently a bit clunky and made strange chuffing noises. The early compound engines were pure steam punk though, all cranks and Walschaert's valve gear. I'd love to see them on the road. As for the greenies whining about C0 2 where the hell do they think the wiggly amps come from to charge up battery cars. They don't come from Magic moonbeams or the tele tubbies windmill they come from Didcot and Sizewell! ;)

BlueWolf
21st Nov 2006, 03:26
I recall a thing on the box a few years back about a character up north somewhere who had ressurrected an old steam-powered traction engine and was using it in displays and parades and suchlike, powered by compressed nitrogen.

Why he didn't just fire up the boiler, I have no idea.

I think the compressed gas idea was tried in submarines as well, but the exhaust bubbles made them too easy to spot.

G-CPTN
21st Nov 2006, 03:37
I recall a thing on the box a few years back about a character up north somewhere who had ressurrected an old steam-powered traction engine and was using it in displays and parades and suchlike, powered by compressed nitrogen.
Why he didn't just fire up the boiler, I have no idea.
Probably because the boiler had deteriorated and would require considerable repair (and possibly retubing) followed by proof-testing to ascertain that it wouldn't explode under operating pressure - all at considerable expense. Wherever the compressed nitrogen was stored I don't suppose it would be in the boiler, but in its own pressure vessel. The nitrogen would be fed directly into the cylinders or through the existing pipes and valves.

ORAC
21st Nov 2006, 05:59
One read last night an interesting article in the latest New Scientist about Louis Brennan (http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/brennan/brennan.htm) and his gyro-monorail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyro_Monorail). Them were the days of real inventors.... :ok:

Loose rivets
21st Nov 2006, 07:11
Guy Negre is a qualified motor engineer of the highest calibre,

Mmmm...I've heard that he won't fit in small tunnels.:}


Now, as for the motors on wheels. One's post of yesteryear on the subject described to a tee your concept. I postulated that now we have very high power solid-state devices that will operated at 440volts, such a system would be easy to control. The algorithms needed for limited slip and traction control would be simple at software level. The windings could be of large diameter and give good initial starting power. I think the wheel would have to be a ‘solid stator', even if it is rotating!

The most important thing we car driving masses can achieve right now, is to not pollute while stationary. The design of the rest would just follow on naturally.