Flying Careers

[Will Hung]

I'm going to try and steer my son in the direction of a career in flying and wondered if someone could guide me on few points. Firstly, I read on this site a lot of complaining about the job. Are you really treated like s**t, is it really hours of boredom punctuated by moments of stark terror ? Secondly, what sort of money could he earn, starting as, say, a Junior First Officer for a commuter line, and finishing as a senior long haul Captain with a quality airline. Broad brush figures will be fine. Thanks in advance !

[class a]

Personally I dont think you should steer your son .. if he is going to succeed in aviation then he has to really want to do it for himself. Yes it can be hard work, under paid, poor working terms and conditions, long hours, and for little thanks. The only thing that makes it worthwhile is the love of flying. So my advice is, let him decide and support him in whatever career he decides to embark on.

[Gary Lager]

Why not ask your son what he wants to do for a living, rather than 'steer' him in the direction of a flying career?

Forget the dedication to professional standards that the job requires, if he doesn't really want those wings then he won't even get through the hours of ground study, exams, and pre-flight preparation that he needs even to get his frist commercial licence!

Personal motivation is absolutely essential in achieving the standards required of even a 'junior First Officer' on a commuter line (some of whom are quite happy and have no desire to become a 'Senior long haul Captain').

BTW which airlines do you think are 'quality' enough for you to be satisifed with your son's achievements in the future?

You don't say how old your son is, but assuming he is at least 17 or so, why not buy him a trial lesson (and make it apparent it is JUST FOR FUN!!!) - if he has what it takes to become a successful commercial pilot he'll do the rest himself without any 'steering' required!

And if he then does want it bad enough, the money won't be important, nor will working for a 'quality' airline.

I wish him all my very best, sounds like he's going to need it. :rolleyes:

[Will Hung]

I only wanted a bit of advice, not a punch-up over my parenting skills and reference to a quality airline. My son worships everything aviation, he is passionate about it. He regularly flys with me and loves it. I'm having second thoughts now, because, as a job, it clearly causes people to be miserable and negative.

[scroggs]

You and your son need to read this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=251490) thread. All of it, including all of the links contained within. For salary information, read PPJN. (http://www.ppjn.com) To see how other Wannabes are coping with training and the job search process, see Wannabes - Professional Pilot Training (http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=14) and Wannabes - Interviews, Jobs and Sponsorships (http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=104).

The job is a great deal removed from the popular misconceptions commonly held, and the image presented on TV and film. The reality, like most careers, is a great deal more prosaic. That doesn't mean it's bad, but many people have been greatly disillusioned after the reality didn't match their expectations - especially after spending upwards of £60,000 training for what they thought was something glamorous and very well paid! It is neither for the vast majority of pilots - just as most football and music practitioners aren't universally feted and paid several million pounds for doing very little.

Scroggs

[hec7or]

As a parent myself, having been in aviation for 26 years, I would try to encourage my children away from this sector as it appears to be heading in the wrong direction in terms of remuneration, job satisfaction, status and stability.

There are far easier ways of making enough money to live comfortably and, who knows, maybe buy your own aeroplane to enjoy yourself in!!

[davey147]

Will,

I personally wouldnt ask this type of advise on these forums, as coming here is enough to put anyone off a career in aviation. People seem to have a down atitude on things, dont know why. But in the real world (away from pprune) a pilot is still a great job.

If you meet the pilots themselves rather than on here, you'll probably get a more possitive answer. Go to the pilot shows or simply talk to the pilots when you see them on the airplane when you go on holiday.

Ive spent years, wanting to becoming a pilot, then I get put off by reading PPrune threads. But after meeting people and making friends that are pilots, its become apparent that what people say on here isnt that true, yes things have changed but they arnt as bad as people make out. A career as a pilot is still excellent, fun and well paid.

I know people who are pilots for BA, and some of the budget airlines, and not one of them regret doing what they do, they earn 3 - 5 times as much as me (im on £30k, not a pilot), and most of all, love what they do (i dont)

If you want your son to go into aviation as a pilot, then do so, its an excellent career, and I hope to go into it too.

[Alistair]

Will, if he is pasionate about it and you are already taking him flying then you probably won't be able to stop him!

You are right there is a lot of twitter and bisted in the aviation industry, but if you come into it with a sense of adventure and your eyes wide open to the difficulties he (and you and your wife as his parents) will face, in particular that first job (oh and the cash involved), then you stand a chance of getting what you want out of it. A lot of people fall by the wayside for various reasons, but a lot of the time they are their own worst enemies, due to an expectation about the job that just wasn't real. Research it as much as you can with your son, just remember that the coveted airline position is not the be all and end all of aviation, there are a lot of alternatives. The airlines are usually the ones that pay the best, although you have to be prepared to give up your pound of flesh these days! But if you are considering coming in to the industry for the money then you might want to rethink your son's choice of career. Scroggs is definitely pointing in the right direction, see if your son can decide where he wants to go and also end up (long haul/short haul, airline/charter/biz jet/instructing/air taxi, Europe/Africa, the list is endless) and try and talk to as many people in that part of the industry as you can and see how they got their start. You will be amazed at how many people will be willing to help, if they can. Good luck!

[Gary Lager]

Please don't take offence, Will - maybe this just an illustration of how we really need to be more explicit(?!) when on such forums to avoid misunderstandings.

Perhaps if you'd explained that you'd 'like to pass on some advice to your son' then we wouldn't have assumed you were trying to 'steer' him to do something he wasn't interested in.

I too worship (most) things aviation, and many years ago was probably much the same sort of chap he is now. I wouldn't disregard hec7or's post, but I don't hold the same negative views.

It doesn't seem to be the same glamourous industry it was 30 years ago, but that wasn't why I joined. Apart from being in the military, no other civil career lets you fly aeroplanes, so if your son is keen to do so, no info about the state of the industry is likely to make a difference -unless his flying is to be restricted to general aviation.

That said, the career options for commercial pilots are far more sophisticated than you imply in your first post - I have left what we might call a 'quality' airline to work for a low-cost one which gives me the promotion and lifestyle opportunities I want. Plenty of my friends and colleagues have done the same. Not all of us have ambitions to fly long-haul, or even jet aircraft.

The first thing is to decide whether one wants to fly aerolanes for a career instead of a hobby.

The next is to get enough motivation/cash to get a licence.

Then get the first/best job out of the limited ones available.

By the time your son has enough experience to start picking and choosing airlines, he is sure to have a better idea of his priorites in terms of salary, routes, lifestyle, promotion etc. etc.
Planning for such things now is probably a bit hasty.

scroggs is a font of knowledge, and gives the best links on here for this kind of thing

[class a]

easy jet 150k a year what planet are you on

[davey147]

easy jet 150k a year what planet are you on

who said that easyjet pilots get 150k?

[class a]

Ok I stand corrected please inform me what budget airline pays 150k as I would like to apply

[davey147]

I have no idea what budget airlines pay that money, I know that the top training captains are on 120k for easyjet, maybe when you add the sector and duty pay onto that it does bump it up to 150k. But I dont know anyone who works for easy jet.

I know someone who works for Jet2 he pulls in just above 90k before Tax. And also a captain on thompson who gets a little more.

The 150k in my post I was refering to BA if you read it correctly, one of my friends is a captain for them he earns just a little under that.

A message to Will, the above wages are amounts that it is possible to receive after a lot of experience, when starting out in aviation you'll be lucky to pull in £20k (earn more in mcdonalds :) ). And it is possible to work for free when you are doing your type training.

[scroggs]

Davey, I think it's a little misleading to talk about salaries of £90 - £150k. While these amounts are eminently achievable after a fairly long time in the job, it's probably more useful to talk about the kind of money to be earned by a relative newbie.

As you suggest, if a new pilot begins with a turboprop operator, he can expect between £17 and £25k. If that pilot is lucky, and gets his first job with a low-cost jet operator, he might expect £30k or a little more. However, many, many professional pilots begin their careers flight instructing, air taxiing or night freighting, where wages may be between £8k and £15k.

The guy who gets that jet job straight away might expect command within 5 years or so, in which case he might be making the £90k you mention. However, the guy who starts down the FI route might take 30 years to get into a job where such salaries are possible. As for £150k, there are very, very few in UK aviation earning that kind of money - and their age and seniority mean that they probably won't do it for long!

The majority of UK pilots are probably within the band £40k - £70k. That's not to say they can't earn more, but, for many, their personal peak will be within that range. Those are the kind of ballpark figures I'd be telling a wannabe.

Scroggs

[Will Hung]

Thanks for your constructive comments guys. I appreciate that Pilots earn what are comparatively low salaries when you consider their responsibility, skill, dedication etc. It always seems an injustice to me that beancounters get paid so much. However, I would much rather my son go into work doing something that he loves, with a smile on his face, than earn substatially more sitting in an office formulating figures, wishing he was up there. (Like his Dad) !

[class a]

Best of luck with whatever you and your son decide to do.

[apron]

Hi,

Without any judgement and from some experience. Scroggs is correct with regards commuter/regional salaries but the loco market varies substantially. I would say that after all flight pays etc you can expect to earn £38K to approx £50K depending on the airline. (Jet) That is accurate info for british locos and is available to low hr pilots.

The job is great....................

[yeoman]

Will: 20 odd years ago I had an old man like you. He had wanted to be a pilot but was thwarted for various reasons. He became an Aeronautical Engineer and the interest rubbed off on me. He bought me a Trial Lesson and my mother threatened to kill him! She made numerous similar threats over the next 10 years as I wended my way through the process of getting a licence, collecting a respectable list of knockbacks along the way.

I now work for an airline that has it's share of muppets in positions of authority, has a policy of screwing everything and everyone and knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. I have lost count of the number of holes I have drilled in the night skies, the crippling early starts and late finishes, the missed bank holidays and weekends, the kids asking their mother who the strange bloke is who just walked in when I get home, the greed of management, the lack of respect from them for their employees, their stupidity, being cocked about by security oafs etc etc etc.:ugh: :mad: :{ :yuk:

I also earn a good salary, work with some incredible people and still enjoy going in to work, regardless of the hour. Once the doors are shut and we're free of the tyranny of fools, it is, in spite of all the above and much more, IMHO the best thing you can do with your clothes on.:E

Time again? You bet!:ok:

Good luck to you and your son, you'll both need it.:)

[plumponpies]

I'm relatively new to this game, ie. post 9/11 so i had no experience of the job prior to this. But from what i understand it is those that have been in the job for over ten years that have seen the industry change dramatically that tend to see the negatives.
I guess i'm blessed in a way, I cannot compare the job to times gone by and can only see it for what it is today. To me it is the best career choice i could have taken.
I get paid well, i work with great people, see fantastic sights, it has its moments, as does any job, but BOY! they are more than compensated for.
I'd thoroughly recommend this career to anybody!:ok:

[CamelhAir]

Yeoman - that is quite probably the most accurate summing up of the job i have read on pprune in a long time. Well said sir.

[Re-Heat]

Thanks for your constructive comments guys. I appreciate that Pilots earn what are comparatively low salaries when you consider their responsibility, skill, dedication etc. It always seems an injustice to me that beancounters get paid so much. However, I would much rather my son go into work doing something that he loves, with a smile on his face, than earn substatially more sitting in an office formulating figures, wishing he was up there. (Like his Dad) !
Oi - us accountants work bloody hard for our money - and many of us enjoy it as well. Pays the weekend flying bills!

[silverhawk]

Spot on. Yeoman's got it dead right.
It sounds like we all work for the same airline, just different paint schemes.