Morale in QANTAS

[company_spy]

Having been told by Dept Manager that morale within engineering is high, I thought I would like to hear from other engineers whether this was correct or if I was working for a different company. I would like to hear from other departments their thoughts on this matter, i.e. a venting of spleens or a tick of satisfaction with the company. I believe I know the general consensus of opinion but it would be nice to hear it from other sources.
Please no libellous comments.:=

[Mr.Buzzy]

Mate, ask almost any "non-management" employee within Australian aviation what morale is like!

The three standard responses will vary from sh1t to sh1tter to sh1ttest!

bbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz z

[company_spy]

Depending on what type of person you are talking to the measurement of morale will be 1)for management Good and work its way higher. 2)For non-managent will be Good and work its way lower. Having been in the company for many years their has never been a concensus, for me it has been good bordering on pretty good, however being a pesimist I may have a slanted view but that was in the days of John Menadue(forgive the spelling) but I believe people were happier then.

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Is this a wind up or what? I would have thought from the previous Qantas posts it was pretty obvious what morale is like all round at the flying rat. Pilots happy at the 330 * badge and leave without pay? Lame's losing the heavy maintenence and more to go? Having to fix the outsourced cheapest bidder work then be told you're too exspensive? IT dissappears into the lowest bidder? Another company supported with mainline infrastructure and hardware while you are told to tighten your belt coz you want too much? Hmm let me think. Yeh sure morale would be good in that situation. The only ones who seem to be happy are the board and shareholders, the rest of the mob can see the wheels falling off. Are you fishing for the naysayers or just stirring the pot? :=

[Keg]

Having been told by Dept Manager that morale within engineering is high, .......


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I spoke to a mate of mine about this very topic a little while ago. He is a 20+ year veteran of QF airways and he reckons he's NEVER seen morale so low. He's also the quintessential 'company man' who loves Qantas as an airline. The difference is that he will protect the QF 'brand' and reputation at all costs but no longer gives a stuff about protecting the 'company'. An Army of one springs to mind.

I know things are bad when I hear this particular bloke talk that way because he's just about the most positive person on the planet! Very sad for what was once a great airline as well as a great company! :ugh:

[company_spy]

I have read a lot of posts on this forum and a lot are unhappy with their lot, however there are a lot of people who welcome the opportunity to work for a company who has given them a chance to show their abilities.
I do not for one moment believe the company does anything out of the goodness of their heart as in the past, however my origonal posting was to see howmany are satisfied at this point in time with QANTAS. Is it a wind up? NO. Is it stirring the pot? YES, if it gets a lively debate from both camps then everyone is satisfied.

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Apologies Mr. Spy if I came across a bit strong, it's just that these days I don't hear many positive things said about the great Australian Airline that is QANTAS. I do like creative debate and am interested to hear all sides of an argument, not just the negatives. I get a bit carried away sometimes I think it's cultural.

I really would like to hear some positives though and hope we get some posts along those lines, but I don't think we will for some reason. So please could all you satisfied, happy QANTAS people let us know how well you are being treated. I am sure it's not all that bad.

[Shlonghaul]

Very sad for what was once a great airline as well as a great company! :ugh:
Keg ~~ Amen and ain't that the truth :(

Morale? What morale?? Have never seen it so low. The despair is so blatantly obvious with QF employees I speak with in all sorts of different departments.
Very sad is an understatement. :sad: Can only hope for an improvement :suspect:

[SeeBee]

The Airline is undergoing a lot of changes at present. A fair number of them are required as the rules employees work under were made in different times. Nothing wrong with that, just an expression of the ongoing need for change - not always improvement.
Having said that I echo Keg's comment things are not good.
We have a management that is confrontational, belligerent and in many cases bullying. The Company has made enormous mistakes over the last six years - yes it has also made some good decisions. However the costs of the mistakes are starting to come through and will continue to do so over the next period of time.
The Company has the wrong fleet, going to the wrong places. It does not appear to recognise the changes that other Airlines are putting in place for product improvement.
Their Industrial Relations policies are woeful. They do not understand the need to lead by example but more by threat, intimidation and deceit.
The ordinary employee, as a general rule do their job to the best of their ability. They still regard the customer as the number one priority.
Employee moral will continue to be at a low ebb until the management of the Company recognise their worth and treat them reasonably. This could be as simple as telling them the truth!

[rescue 1]

I have often been puzzled at why morale can be so variable.

As Mr Buzzy said, and it would be fair to say that morale is low in all parts of aviation not just Qantas. It has often been said that morale is high at airlines when they see growth. eg FO's getting commands. Yet I read the middle east forum, and the EK Pilots seem (albeit on the surface in a silent forum) to also be unhappy, yet EK are having unprecedented growth!!?? What I do think is, that we must guard against this industry heading the way history has seen another great transport industry go - the railways.

The start of the downfall, was when train travel became more accessible to the wider population ie Ryan, Easy & Jetstar etc. We must act with urgency and turn the consumers around.

Secondly, its about how see the cup - half full or half empty.

[griffinblack]

Gents,

I am over the whole Qantas low morale thing. If your morale is low and you don’t like were your company is taking you, you have a very powerful option. LEAVE. There are plenty of jobs for LAME, AME and pilots all over the country and indeed globally.

Stop bleating.

[Keg]

So please could all you satisfied, happy QANTAS people let us know how well you are being treated. I am sure it's not all that bad.

I enjoy the job. I enjoy working with the majority of my colleagues. I enjoy the fact that the pay keeps turning up every fortnight.

I do not enjoy being treated like an idiot. I do not enjoy being told that my operational culture would 'pollute' the LCC even if I did want to go across there. I do not like having my association negotiate an MoU in good faith only to have the conditions imposed by the LCC so restrictive that very few people can take advantage of it. I do not enjoy being told that my colleagues in the SH side of things don't even deserve a pay rise whilst Dixon et al take bonuses and pay rises and sorts of largesse at everyone elses expense. I do not enjoy that the LCC is artificially 'propped up' by my QF mainline bretheren whilst we are told that our costs aren't competitive. I do not like the penny pinching cost of everything, value of nothing attitude that continually flows down. I do not like having to apologise to passengers ad infinitum about why the service they are getting is crap because of some company stuff up that has occurred because we're penny pinching. I do not like providing feedback to some new change thought up by someone who lives and works in an office, only to be ignored- and then have that same office dwelling genius discover 1 month to 3 years later that perhaps that change wasn't smart after all ('boxes', removing hand towels from business, etc, etc, etc). I do not like seeing colleagues (not just pilots) bullied by others- be they management or just those senior to them in rank.


If your morale is low ... LEAVE. Stop bleating.

Griffinblack, someone else asked the question and so I'm not bleating, I'm just contributing to the discussion. If you don't like the contributions take your own advice and LEAVE. No one forces you to read the thread. No one forces you to hit the 'submit reply' button. So if you're not going to contribute to the discussion then wrack off. Just because I'm still at QF (and love it as an airline) doesn't mean that I'm happy with the direction it is taking or the way I'm treated. Is it that bad yet that I'll leave? Not quite but for a few it is....and they're going and in much larger numbers than I've ever seen previously at QF. For someone who has always seen QF as my career that is incredibly worrying. So feel free to contribute to the ongoing discussion if you'd like but given your first contribution I'm not banking on you providing anything that would be particularly worthwhile! :rolleyes:

[noip]

The Keg is more diplomatic and delicate in his statements than myself....

Bravo..

N

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

I concur also Mr Keg, I especially like the way you allude to the wonderful MBA style of modern managers. All degree no experience, lets just cut costs now so I look good in the short term and who cares what happens in the future coz I won't be here. I'll be destroying some other company with my short sighted bottom line tightening restructuring by the time my current company implodes.:ugh:

Sorry that cultural thing took hold again and I bleated.

[noip]

McNamara's Whiz Kids ...

(for those old enough to remember)

N

[jack red]

All degree no experience, lets just cut costs now so I look good in the short term and who cares what happens in the future coz I won't be here.

A classic example of this statement is RIGHT HERE ! (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=250899)

[assasin8]

Hey, just hand me the vaseline and I'll be "REALLY" happy !!!
:{

[The Pirate]

Could I ask politely what would please QF staff and lift moral to the heights it once was, without making the airline run at a cost disadvantage and then be subject to all manner of ailments that we have seen elsewhere in the last decade or so?

Lets face it; running an airline and airline travel have changed; forever. We cant go back to the halceon days where governments propped up the national carrier(s). Look at Air France, KLM, Sabena (and all the Belgian Airlines of the 90's) they would not or could not change and went under. (Well actually Air France is a dead airline walking, sorry, flying; has been for years)

But I do agree with all that has been said about NAM (new age management); they dont understand an old adage:- It's all about looking after your people, and if you manage them well they will follow you anywhere. Read increased productivity.

Can the above two, seemingly apposed, theories ever go hand in hand? ie Reduce costs and keep staff happy?????

[Keg]

Perhaps something like this may help:

ugust 2, 2006 — What's the secret behind building a multibillion-dollar business empire that has instant name recognition? You might think it depends on a CEO who's ruthlessly competitive and drives company workers relentlessly. Well, Jim Sinegal isn't your typical CEO, and Costco, the business he founded, is not your typical store.

While it may be unorthodox, nobody could say Sinegal's business strategy isn't working......

And Sinegal isn't just interested in taking care of his customers. He wants to take good care of his employees.

"It's a good place to work; they take care of us," said one Costco employee who spoke with "20/20" correspondent Bill Ritter.


And when Sinegal walks into one of his stores, he's treated like a celebrity. His employees seem to genuinely like him. And the feeling's mutual.

"The employees know that I want to say hello to them, because I like them," he said.


Just Jim

Unlike the stereotypical CEO, Sinegal doesn't try to distance himself from his employees. He even wears a name tag — but not one that says "Jim, the CEO" or "Jim, Costco Founder." It just says Jim. He easily could be mistaken for a stock clerk.


His philosophy is simple, he said. "We have said from the very beginning: 'We're going to be a company that's on a first-name basis with everyone,'" he said.

That also includes answering his own phone. "If a customer's calling and they have a gripe, don't you think they kind of enjoy the fact that I picked up the phone and talked to them?" he said.

The son of a steelworker, Sinegal began in the warehouse business, loading mattresses. Sinegal's working-class values are ingrained in Costco's corporate culture. That may in fact be the key to the company's success

"Our code of ethics says we have to obey the law. We have to take care of our customers, take care of our people. And if we do those things, we think that we'll reward our shareholders," Sinegal said.

He certainly has rewarded them. This year's sales total more than $52 billion from 462 stores in 37 states and eight countries. Costco is now the nation's fourth-largest retailer, selling everything from crab legs to flat-screen TVs to caskets — and even a Picasso painting.

Rewarding Loyalty

And Sinegal is the tireless show producer, managing from the road, hopping on the corporate jet, and visiting up to a dozen Costco stores a day.

"No manager and no staff in any business feels very good if the boss is not interested enough to come and see them," he said.

And Sinegal says he's also built a loyal work force. In fact, Costco has the lowest employee turnover rate in retailing. Its turnover is five times lower than its chief rival, Wal-Mart. And Costco pays higher than average wages 40 percent more than Sam's Club, the warehouse chain owned by Wal-Mart. And it offers better-than-average benefits, including health care coverage to more than 90 percent of its work force.

Costco doesn't have a P.R. department and it doesn't spend a dime on advertising. There's a real business advantage to treating employees well, Sinegal said. "Imagine that you have 120,000 loyal ambassadors out there who are constantly saying good things about Costco. It has to be a significant advantage for you," he explained.

Many Costco workers have been with the company since it was founded in 1983. Once hired, they rarely leave.

Susan MaConnaha, a Costco vice president and head baker, said working for Costco is a family affair. "My whole family works for Costco, my husband does, my daughter does, my new son-in-law does," she said.

And Sinegal rewards that loyalty. "We promote almost 100 percent from within our company. We have guys who started pushing shopping carts out on the parking lot for us who are now vice presidents of our company," he said.

In an era when many CEOs are seen as greedy and sometimes corrupt, Sinegal is proving that good guys can finish first — and without all the corporate frills. Sinegal even sends out his own faxes from his bare-bones office-without-walls at company headquarters near Seattle. But the most remarkable thing about Sinegal is his salary — $350,000 a year, a fraction of the millions most large corporate CEOs make.

"I figured that if I was making something like 12 times more than the typical person working on the floor, that that was a fair salary," he said.

Of course, as a co-founder of the company, Sinegal owns a lot of Costco's stock — more than $150 million worth. He's rich, but only on paper.

Nell Minow, editor and founder of the Corporate Library and an expert on corporate governance, said she was shocked to discover that Sinegal's employment contract is only a page long. "I would love to clone him," she said.

"Of the 2,000 companies in our database, he has the single shortest CEO employment contract. And the only one, which specifically says, he can be — believe it or not — 'terminated for cause.' If he doesn't do his job, he is out the door," Minow said.

Sinegal admits that "paying high wages [to his employees] is contrary to conventional wisdom."

And conventional wisdom in this case comes from Wall Street. Analysts seem to be the only critics of Costco and Sinegal. They think the company could make even more money if it paid its workers less — like Wal-Mart does.

Sinegal is unfazed by his critics. "Wall Street is in the business of making money between now and next Tuesday," he said. "We're in the business of building an organization, an institution that we hope will be here 50 years from now. And paying good wages and keeping your people working with you is very good business."

What Sinegal has proven is that a company doesn't have to be ruthless. Being humane and ethical can also make you money.

The differences between Jim Sinegal and Geoff Dixon are obvious and frightening.

(I should note too that I've edited out some non relevant stuff about the business.)

[Visual Procedures]

If your morale is low and you don’t like were your company is taking you, you have a very powerful option. LEAVE.

Mate.. They are. One 767 FO gone this week.. Another going VERY soon.. At least 5 more FO's I know of waiting on results from interviews.

What disappoints me the most is that the company has let it get so bad that these young, talented blokes no longer feel there is a future for them at QANTAS. The worst bit is management are sticking their head in the sand and not just not caring, they're not making any effort to do anything about it! I know for a fact the chief pilot did not even make contact at any stage with the FO who has left!! :rolleyes:

[Baxter Dewall]

I don't hear anybody from Jet* complaining about their lot hear. After all like it or not they are QF also.

Just a little bit of trivia for ya. Anybody from EAA can correct me if I am wrong but from the last count there was 27 resignations within the last 12 weeks!!!!!
If you are a Capt forget about ANY prospects within QF mainline or Jet* as you are deemed UNCOMPETITIVE; yet 14 F/O's have managed to be COMPETITIVE. Very recently a mate of mine was offered the opportunity for Stage 1 testing for Jet*. HE IS A TRAINING CAPT AT EAA AND HAS BEEN IN THE COMPANY FOR 9 YRS. Sorry matey, you're not competitive was his response. It appears he is not capable of flying in the RHS at JQ but can stay put and TRAIN NEW F/O's WITH THE KANGAROO ON THE TAIL.
Go figure:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:
What an insult. These guys/gals that are in the company should not have to do any testing as they have already prooved their worth.

I wonder how many of the JQ/Impulse guys/girls went through the assessment testing to see whether they were competitive to fly the B717 or A320. :ok:

Kinda makes a mockery of the whole system really.

And people wonder why morale is low in the pilot ranks.

Go figure


Baxter.

[Capt Fathom]

I don't hear anybody from Jet* complaining about their lot hear.
Because they are so busy flying their arses off they don't have time to! :E

[Ultralights]

or can afford a computer and internet connection... :}

[podbreak]

Morale? What morale?? Have never seen it so low. The despair is so blatantly obvious with QF employees I speak with in all sorts of different departments.
Very sad is an understatement. :sad: Can only hope for an improvement :suspect:

I seem to remember recently a team was implemented to survey pilots on engagement, which they discovered to be very low. Sustainable Futures, if it is to live up to its name, surely should not only be about cutting costs, but also maintaining high morale.

[Gnadenburg]

Where are the resigning QF pilots going?

[domo]

iv worked for qantas engineering over 17 years and its the worst moral ever.the apprentices out of there time are shipped to workshops where most leave due to no future prospects.the ames have no progression of coming lames. and the young bright best lame are scared of been retrenched due to the fact they cost a few dollars more than an ame.we have to bid for the 380 contract and jetstar are getting the 787 so its up in the air who will maintain them. when i first joined people talked about hoildays now its all doom and gloom and what to do after we all get the arse

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

Just a little bit of trivia for ya. Anybody from EAA can correct me if I am wrong but from the last count there was 27 resignations within the last 12 weeks!!!!!
If you are a Capt forget about ANY prospects within QF mainline or Jet* as you are deemed UNCOMPETITIVE; yet 14 F/O's have managed to be COMPETITIVE. Very recently a mate of mine was offered the opportunity for Stage 1 testing for Jet*. HE IS A TRAINING CAPT AT EAA AND HAS BEEN IN THE COMPANY FOR 9 YRS. Sorry matey, you're not competitive was his response. It appears he is not capable of flying in the RHS at JQ but can stay put and TRAIN NEW F/O's WITH THE KANGAROO ON THE TAIL.Baxter, its common knowledge that career progression for Easterns Captains is via:
Cathay Pacific
Dragonair
Hong Kong ExpressExpect a fair few Captain resignations in the next few weeks :ok::}
And we all know theres no collusion between Easterns recruiting and Jetstars to keep the experience in the company.

[rammel]

All of what Keg says is spot on. The area I was in when QF/TN were merged took a good 5 years to get to a point where it was operating effectively and pretty efficient. That was 5 or so years ago and in my mind that is when morale was at its peak.

To rebuild morale is not always about more money, it is also how you are treated. For the last few years GD has treated staff like s**t and he wonders (does he?) why most are so apathetic. One way I can think of to help rebuild morale, would be to scrap the fuel surcharge on staff tickets. Another would be to give staff one positive space (not high priority and not foc) for them and their QEA beneficeries, with no blackouts. While they would say this costs them money, I don't believe it would be a large ammount compared to the lost profits they must have from low morale.

[WynSock]

A For the last few years GD has treated staff like s**t and he wonders (does he?) why most are so apathetic. One way I can think of to help rebuild morale, would be to scrap the fuel surcharge on staff tickets. Another would be to give staff one positive space (not high priority and not foc) for them and their QEA beneficeries, with no blackouts. While they would say this costs them money, I don't believe it would be a large ammount compared to the lost profits they must have from low morale.

I agree. And by the way, hasn't the price of oil gone back down a bit? Has staff travel got cheaper? I don't think so. Looked at some QEA travel around the place for spouse and child. - Cheaper on Jet*!

It is supposed to be a priviledge of working for the company. One of the reasons you want to work here.

mmmmmmmm not too good for morale at the white rat.

Heard the one about wages being 2% of operating cost.
Fuel being 45% of operating cost. Who controls the fuel go-go levers?
:}

[St. Elmo's Fire]

Gnadenburg,

I heard a few 767 F/Os were/have gone to Emirates? Can anyone confirm?

[Wingspar]

QF management is entirely responsible for this situation.

Engagement surveys are just a sign of being seen to do the right thing! Has anything been done to remedy this situation?........No!

This management belongs in the dark ages where its practices come from. The comment, "the emhasis is on shareholders" demonstrates an inability or unwillingless to address the actual processes that run the company.

What motivates the staff?
Certainly not the management but a loyalty that QF is lucky to behold. This is the only reason the company is producing the results it is. Sure a big stick can get results but not for the right reasons and long term benefit.

Jetstar is a smoke screen. It is just a form of segmentation and a successful one at that but Qantas remains unattended. A fixed cost base with reducing business (thanks to Jetstar) without a true leader that can inspire the troops. If the opposite were true Qantas would be great and not just good!

The institutional investors meanwhile just want yearly returns on their investment and until QF gets an owner that is actually interested in the health of the company this situation will continue....and the only form of frustrated relief for staff is a forum like this!

[Keg]

I heard a few 767 F/Os were/have gone to Emirates? Can anyone confirm?

One publically declared so on Qrewroom. There may have been others who didn't declare it to the world. A few others are in the application stage and I've spoken to about a dozen S/Os who have active applications all over the place. It used to be that S/Os from Cathay would leave and come to QF if they got an offer within the first couple of years of getting to CX. Now it appears to be the other way around and it's the QF drivers leaving for sandier, wetter, or more humid climates. :(

[fromwayback]

Motivation has nothing to do with money unless the basic essentials are at risk... food, a place to live and health etc. Morale is low if there is no motivation. The driving issues are respect, self esteem, fulfilment. All large organisations are guilty of allowing accountants', greedy management and shareholders' monetary wants to succeed at the cost of the needs of the people that are the life blood of any organisation and one day the proverbial dog will have his day. Jetstar staff are not to blame, Qantas staff are not to blame, nor virgin, NJS, QANTASlink etc etc etc.

[Capt Wally]

.........................morale, low interest at every corner & a sliding of passenger confidence means only one thing in the long run, MONEY !!.................QF like most high flyer Co's are listed on the public stock exchange, they simply need to 'perform' !...............it's not rocket science & the only way to forge ahead in the real world of MONEY is to reduce where possible overheads.......maintenance, pax service & to some degree morale all get 'trimmed'...............that corny saying 'the good 'ole days' are well & truely long gone, welcome to the new world of aviation where job security, pride & advancement are things of the past at the expense of progress:-)

Capt Wally

[BHMvictim]

Could I ask politely what would please QF staff and lift moral to the heights it once was, without making the airline run at a cost disadvantage

Lets see.... support from management in what we do. When we find a problem, management should listen and asisst us in fixing it. Not sweep it under the carpet as they do now. Not find half a dozen reasons to say "no" to a solution as they do now.

When we started in Brisbane, over the first few weeks, our management should have been out and about on the floor introducing themselves personaly, to each employee. They should have been offering their assistance. ie "How is everything going? Are there any problems with anything you are doing? Let me know if there is anything I can do to help improve facilities etc". They then, should have been pro-active in addressing any problems that were raised.

Rather, they walked around pointing the finger at people for not wearing safety glasses or for bringing chairs to the workplace to sit on whilst doing paperwork.

First impressions count a long way towards lasting impressions.

Buying pizza for everyone when the aircraft goes out ahead of schedule may help a little.... (even though it was Dominos pizza), however most people would like to see support on the job. Spares availability issues addressed. IT unreliability addressed. Frequent lack of tooling problems addressed. Sure, these cost money to fix, but the long term savings far outweigh the short term costs.

I think, where I work anyway, the damage to morale was made early on in the piece. The on-going problems listed in the last paragraph don't help. Particularly, when they seem to be getting worse, as management fail to rectify them.

[lowerlobe]

For those of us who have been with the company for some time and in my case that is just over 30 years will know some things about the company.

There are two words that do not exist and probably have never existed in the QF vocabulary and those are LOYALTY and MORALE.

I have always been very proud to wear a QF uniform however various senior managment have tried to extinguish that sentiment many times during my 30 years.

The classic example was a few years ago at a meeting when the question was asked of a senior manager "What do you intend to do about the low morale problem?"

The answer nearly made me fall out of my chair when she said "I don't see the need for morale therefore I don't see a problem"

There are a lot of people employed by QF who enjoy their job as well as the other usual things we have to think about such as children and the lack of interest in moving away from Australia and that is probably why there is a low attrition rate in a number of areas.

This does not mean that we are enamoured with management and maybe it is misplaced optimism but most of us hope that maybe for once managment might just work with us instead of constantly trying to find ways to do the exact opposite and seemingly destroy morale.For QF have always seemed to believe that an employee is not an asset but a liability.

[podbreak]

Gnadenburg,

I heard a few 767 F/Os were/have gone to Emirates? Can anyone confirm?

There were plenty of QF folk at the information forum...

[chemical alli]

just ask the stooge and co horts .morale never better .from the fly boys to the tyre boys its sh#t creek but hey sell your shares cue the clown music and watch the circus roll into town,the true believers will not live in pity city and the also rans will fade but lets just say pride will go before a fall. go to work do your job take the pay and just forget about the rat come knockoff ,this is corporate australia and ir laws

[coitus interuptus]

Sorry to hear the morale in QF is low. It is just as undersirably low in DJ as well. The management have stood aside from the (more productive) path to harmony, satisfaction and staff engagement (now a commonly over used cliche) and allowed the ( under-educated, low life) economic rationalists to take over.

All airlines in OZ appear to be suffering the same consequences from these fiscal prostitutes. Until we ALL get together and as a united team, undermine the quintessential incompetence of these sub-human incongruents, the better.

The incestuous nature of the accounting standards and multilateral mis management, endemic in the airlines needs to be addressed before these psychopathic demagogues preside over the ultimate demise of a hull.

[Avy]

Sorry to hear the morale in QF is low. It is just as undersirably low in DJ as well. The management have stood aside from the (more productive) path to harmony, satisfaction and staff engagement (now a commonly over used cliche) and allowed the ( under-educated, low life) economic rationalists to take over.

All airlines in OZ appear to be suffering the same consequences from these fiscal prostitutes. Until we ALL get together and as a united team, undermine the quintessential incompetence of these sub-human incongruents, the better.

The incestuous nature of the accounting standards and multilateral mis management, endemic in the airlines needs to be addressed before these psychopathic demagogues preside over the ultimate demise of a hull.

I agree with what you're saying (that we should stick together as a team), however, it doesn't help when pilots pay for their endorsements! :ugh:

[Sunfish]

With the greatest of respect, its not "respect" that drives morale, its recognition. Unfortunately the current management of Qantas is doing everything it possibly can to "de-recognise" its own workforce!

For those of you that have ever had to deal with corporate strategy, you will know that this is not a good long term strategy, because it is actually the employees who do the company's work, not the Board. If the employees are p*ssed off, you can be sure that the pax will be as well.

The "de-recognition" appears as a series of "meta messages". A meta message is "the message you are sending when you don't think you are sending a message".
There have been a series of very "de-recognising" messages sent by Qantas to its staff recently.

Some of them I am aware of are:

1: Qantas engineering staff have no role whatsoever in determining the success of the airline. The aircraft mostly maintain themselves. Your skills and expereince are as irrelevent as you are. We will simply use the lowest bidder to perform what limited maintenance is required.

2: Pilots are just bus drivers and should be paid and treated accordingly. No skills except passing exams are required.

3: Cabin staff are just waitresses in uniform (the blokes too). No skills are required despite what CASA may try and tell us, we know the truth.

Perhaps some of you can add to the list of "messages" being sent. I understand the guys at Tulla engineering are about to get one soon.

Qantas can get away with offering a substandard product because they have a protected monopoly on capacity. Standards will continue to decline until either Qantas loses this monopoly or it has a series of accidents that demonstrate that its so called standards and reputation are now illusory.

It may be cold comfort, but at least two other Australian major public companies have been led down this same road by similar management styles. Neither of them exist anymore as more than a shell of what they once were.

End of message.

[Capt Wally]

.........one glaring thing here amongst all the PPRune posts...........well not really glaring when you really think about it & that is two single topics/aspects that attract the most feedback/attention here amongst all the 'stories' contained within & that is all about wages & Morale, the two things that make us get out of bed in the first place!!.......both so low where lucky that we have an aviation industry that's sustainable for the future & that's debatable!, watch this space Dixon & the likes the rumblings as well as the lack of job security will perhaps one day have a devistating effect on Co's such as the Red Rat (the big Co's CEO's can stay in transport industry by driving a truck !).............as soon as the general public feel that this is what's happening (we as pilots already know the rot is setting in ) they (the genral share holders) will jump ship like the Titanic & watch the Red Rat for Eg. go down to depths where Morale currently stands.......God 'elp us all & i'm not God fearin' man !:ugh:

Capt Wally :-)

p.s........the only "recognition" (that someone else here has pointed out) that will be known to us will be that light switch that has the same name over it & I'm sure the boffins would just love to cull that as well due to light bulb costs !.............what did I hear once by someone so called famous?............."see & be seen"...............yeah that'll be the day !:-(

[Jetsbest]

I can relate a (slightly de-identified) story about recognition in Qantas. One of our captains, not too long ago, was mentioned for a 'good show' for his actions during a major delay. An inbound jet diverted due cyclonic weather, crews (inbound & outbound) ran out of duty, passengers un-impressed, flight delayed >8 hours but the captain & crew remained in the terminal for hours answering questions, providing solutions, explaining the complications and assisiting frazzled ground-staff; basically saved the day (not to mention immeasurable customer goodwill) for the company reputation going by a letter from a very impressed business frequent flyer.

His recognition? Wait for it....

During a subsequent meeting with a pilot manager, much ado was made about calling an office 'upstairs', getting a cost code and writing the details down. What do you think his actions might have saved the company?

Not that he expected anything actually, but his recognition? "Well done. Go and get yourself a free coffee from the cafeteria." We all laughed! :D

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

I can verify the veracity of that story. They even made posters about it to put at various crew areas as an example of how to manage such a delay.. they left out the bit about the coffee though...:(

[Pinky the pilot]

she said "I don't see the need for morale therefore I don't see a problem"


How on Earth did this 'senior manager' ever get to the position she holds with an attitude like that??:confused:
An acquaintance of mine is a Stipendiary Magistrate and has a term for such people.
He calls them 'educated f***wits!'

[BHMvictim]

How on Earth did this 'senior manager' ever get to the position she holds with an attitude like that?

easy..... one word, (said over and over), to his superiors

YES YES YES...................

[DutchRoll]

Gents,
I am over the whole Qantas low morale thing. If your morale is low and you don’t like were your company is taking you, you have a very powerful option. LEAVE. There are plenty of jobs for LAME, AME and pilots all over the country and indeed globally.
Stop bleating.
Going back to the above quote. There are not "plenty" of airline jobs - particularly for pilots, and particularly with favourable conditions to make up for the itinerant lifestyle - within Australia just yet. Selling the house & packing up the wife & kids to move overseas is far easier said than done. And a myriad of other things can make leaving a particular job or company difficult. That's not even counting those hanging on to their place in what they have previously felt was a great company in the hope that things might improve. :yuk:

Edit: That statement rather irked me. Had to tone down the response a bit. If only it were so ridiculously and plainly simple as just "leaving". Nevertheless, despite the difficulties in doing this, there are indeed some QF pilots resigning as previously mentioned. I have spoken to a couple of them.

[podbreak]

Gents,

I am over the whole Qantas low morale thing. If your morale is low and you don’t like were your company is taking you, you have a very powerful option. LEAVE. There are plenty of jobs for LAME, AME and pilots all over the country and indeed globally.

Stop bleating.

Possibly the most clueless response in this thread.

Perhaps you should use your own logic, if you're 'over' the morale thing, LEAVE THE THREAD... title makes it pretty clear, should be of no interest to you.

[Veruka Salt]

1 x 767 F/O to Emirates, 777 F/O :D
1 x 767 F/O to CX, A330 F/O, Syd base. He's resigning this week. :)

Stay tuned for more. :ok:

[Sunfish]

The modern disease that has caused this type of mess in a lot of companies world wide is Narcissism.

No, it's not what you think, it's a condition where people are unable to empathise with anyone - they only see things from their own point of view. They are literally incapable of seeing anything from anothers point of view. They also have massive low self esteem issues and are therefore highly motivated to perform to win the approval of others.

Not all narcissists are actors and actresses, deeply insecure and running from marriage to marriage and drug to drug.

Some highly intelligent Narcissists work their arses off and get into senior management positions - and then do terrible things to the people who work for them because they simply don't care. They will lie cheat and steal to get what they want, trampling anyone and everyone in the process. I've been through this and it is most unpleasant.

The next time you read about a charismatic CEO or Managing Director who has cut their workforce and outsourced their business to bits, going though two or three marriages along the way, just remember you are probably looking at a Narcissist.

By the way this is a classic narcissistic quote:she said "I don't see the need for morale therefore I don't see a problem"

The person who said this (assuming its true) is telling the truth as she sees it. She simply doesn't know what morale is because she is incapable of empathising with anyone else. You can't retrain these people either - they are "broken", there is nothing more pathetic than a senior manager handing round mars bars at a meeting because they have just been to "sensitivity" training where they were told to do this for "morale" purposes.

The delay in telling the people at Tulla of their fate is a classic narcissistic ploy to underline their total contempt for their staff and bolster their own sense of grandiosity. I would expect that Qantas would have nothing but narcissists in positions of power these days because no normal human being would stand for the game playing that is going on with their staff.

P.S. These people also have a massive sense of entitlement and believe laws are for little people. The managers of HIH and a certain Melbourne entertainment personality and former company director come to mind in this context.

[DutchRoll]

This is unfortunately a very common trend among big business executives during boom times. Look at the 80s for example. And look at just a few years ago in the US. The only consolation is that quite a few high flyers of the period end up sharing a jail cell with Bubba, broke, or die in virtual exile for their excesses and contempt/manipulation of the law, so maybe we will see a similar cycle soon!

[56P]

Just in case some of you haven't seen this letter from a retired pilot to the CEO of UA.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Letter to Tilton,

4-Oct-2005



Mr. Tilton -



For the longest time I've been wondering, "How can Glenn Tilton look at himself in the mirror every morning?" as I view the cruel, heartless actions you've taken against retirees and employees. We met last December when I welcomed you aboard the B-777 I was flying from Denver to Chicago. On one level I had been hoping you would turn out to be a real bastard - that would explain everything - but you are obviously a very intelligent, charismatic, and outwardly pleasant person.



Recently all my questions were answered. You see, I came upon the book The Sociopath Next Door, by Dr. Martha Stout, and everything snapped into sharp focus. A sociopath is someone who has no conscience, who is incapable of feeling empathy or sorrow. It's not a truly evil trait, it's simply a genetic disorder, like being color-blind. An alarming number of people (1 in 25) are sociopaths. You are one of them. You, sir, are a sociopath. The reason you can do unconscionable things is you have no conscience. And when I realized that, I stopped being angry at you.



Now I see it wasn't personal, just business, when you destroyed the pensions of the retirees; pensions that had been bought and paid for, while still accepting your own bonuses and outrageous salary. I see how you could not even comprehend my suggestion, sent to you in two separate e-mails (which you refused to acknowledge or answer) that you forego your salary and work for $1 per year. It sure would have galvanized the entire employee group into pulling on the same end of the rope. And by the way, it wouldn't have been such a bad idea from a financial perspective. After working for free, your 2007 memoir Rising: the True Story of How Glenn Tilton Rescued United would have netted you a hefty seven-figure advance that would have eclipsed your current United salary. Too bad for you, Glenn. By now the whole world has already seen what you're really made of.




You had your chance to really be a historic leader, and instead you will simply be a footnote in the case studies that will examine United Airlines, such as the one I am researching for the Doctor of Business Administration degree I am currently pursuing. The working title is Rolling in their Graves: How the Legacy Of Pat Patterson and Eddie Carlson Was Destroyed by Greed and Incompetence at United Airlines.



While you appear to be an adequate manager, you're a failure as a leader, because you are unable to inspire people to want to follow you. United Airlines was once truly great, where the company really cared about the employees. Now, it's simply a place where the employees come to work. They know they're not valued; they're considered a liability.



During the 27 years I worked at United, I've had some difficult times: I went unpaid during a strike, was furloughed, took more than a 25 percent pay cut for the ill-fated ESOP, watched my pay decrease by more than 50 percent during my last three years, and grieved the loss of friends and coworkers. Through all of those difficult times United was a family. We supported each other during the tough times. We pulled together. With you as the father figure, United is now truly a dysfunctional family.



But at least you've kept your salary, your bonuses and your retirement. United has picked up the tab for your penthouse apartment, a total amount that would equal the entire mortgage on the home of the average retiree. Yes, I know it was promised to you in your contract. But wait: my pension was promised to me in my contract.



The sad thing - I'm sorry, I just used a term you can't comprehend - is that you lack the trait that makes us humans, well, human. No longer angry, I truly feel sorry for you. I still wish this letter would hurt your feelings, but I know that's not possible.



With all DUE respect,

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

:D :D :D

Well said. The bit about the difference between managers and leaders says it all.

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

Heard through the grapevine that the CP doesn't believe there is a morale problem amongst Tech Crew, we're just setting our ambitions too high.... :ooh:

How do you work with a management attitude like that??? :ugh:

[N2O]

Heard through the grapevine that the CP doesn't believe there is a morale problem amongst Tech Crew, we're just setting our ambitions too high....

If this is true, perhaps the Pilot career information booklet [qantas.com.au] (http://www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/about/employment/pilotCareerInformationBooklet.pdf) should be updated, as it currently states on page 10
"Obtaining your command (Captaincy) is the ultimate goal fo all Qantas pilots."

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

Perhaps to

"Obtaining your Jetstar command (Captaincy) is the ultimate goal for all Qantas pilots"

:(

[Sandy Freckle]

Guys, GriffinBlack = an Aust Army Aviator. Whilst there are some terrific people in that organisation, I'm sorry to say that it also has more than it's fair share of f****wits. And Mr Black is definitely one of the latter. He really has no clue but is quick to proffer an opinion.

Until we ALL get together and as a united team, undermine the quintessential incompetence of these sub-human incongruents, the better.


Well said coitus. Nice to hear from a VB pilot and is frequently reflected by my colleagues in QF. Just one question though. Why is it that such a remark NEVER comes from a Jetstar pilot?

[DutchRoll]

Heard through the grapevine that the CP doesn't believe there is a morale problem amongst Tech Crew, we're just setting our ambitions too high.... :ooh:
How do you work with a management attitude like that??? :ugh:
I'm generally a bit cynical regarding what I "hear" on the grapevine, but that is something I could truly believe. I recently spoke in depth over a couple of beers with a certain colleague who was fresh out of a long chat with the CP over his intention to resign. His opinion was that the CP absolutely didn't give a rat's (no pun intended). Those who know a bit of recent QF history and the ego/personality/management relationships involved would not be even mildly surprised at this. Talk about people who live in a "bubble"!

[griffinblack]

Sandy,

May I call you Sandy as you have referred to me rather formally as MR Black? I am glad you are familiar with your fair share of army aviators. I guess you have me down pat and have seen through my thinly disguised charm. No, I am not quick to prefer an opinion. My opinion has been formed over several months reading the numerous threads with the same undertones. I was going to say diatribe, but I would hate for you to continue to think of me as a f***wit.

[Victor India]

LT/CAPT/MAJ Black (I assume you'd be over Pprune if you were >= LTCOL),

You are correct in your assumptions regarding morale in Qantas and the airline industry in general based on what you have read here on Pprune. Of course, you most likely have a few friends who are in the airlines, and they have their own opinions. If you are still serving in the ARA however, these sources of information are severely limited. Recognise Pprune as a collection of very vocal people, many of whom are whingers (I have been known to at times :rolleyes: )

I think it a little rich to offer advice to people along the lines of "get out there amongst the international scene and earn your real worth" when you are still protected by some of the worlds most "comfortable" conditions of service. Don't get me wrong - I once enjoyed them also and reckon they are a great thing, but I never felt I was in a position to be offering advice to blokes about moving overseas when in most cases that would involve closing the door firmly behind them...

VI

[numbskull]

Whilst I agree with griffinblack original post to some extent, (which summarised was "if you don't like it leave-stop whinging!") I believe he doesn't fully appreciate the extent of animosity QF has to its own staff.

I have recently left QF after 20 yrs as a line maint LAME because I saw no future progression in it for me and joined the Department of Defence.

In my experience of both organisations, QF staff are much more efficient and treated much worse for their efforts.

I guess griffinblack is ultimately right. Why bust your arse working for Qantas and get teated like s#$t if you can take it easy working for the Department of Defence and get treated like a human being??

[Victor India]

Numbskull,

I understand where you're coming from, but that is not what griffinblack is on about:

Gents,
I am over the whole Qantas low morale thing. If your morale is low and you don’t like were your company is taking you, you have a very powerful option. LEAVE. There are plenty of jobs for LAME, AME and pilots all over the country and indeed globally.
Stop bleating.

griffinblack isn't suggesting one stays put the sheltered workshop; he is suggesting that the whingers head off overseas with their families and live in a third world lav. A little rich coming from his peaceful life in a Defence Housing Authority suburban dwelling...

VI

[griffinblack]

numbskull and Victor India. Thanks for a more balanced understanding of what, perhaps somewhat clumsily, I was originally trying to say. I think numbskull has the closer appreciation eg there are other well paid opportunities that involve some risk but certain reward still out there. These can be domestic (particularly for AME and LAME’s – involving good remuneration) but can also be overseas. VI - I don't subscribe to needing to head O/S, just that it IS an option (and indeed may be attractive for a variety of reasons).

On another note, I assure you my own lifestyle is not ‘settled’ in the ADF. I move my family regularly (different schools, new job for my spouse and the shear embuggerance of moving), I deploy on exercise and operations etc etc. I am sheltered to the extent that I have ‘guaranteed’ employment. However, rest assured that if I felt as you guys seem to (I don’t – I really enjoy my job) that I would ‘get out’ in a heartbeat. No whining, no bleating, no whinging – just ‘see you later, I’ve got a job with …..’

[Sandy Freckle]

Mate, what you do not seem to grasp, and herin you display your complete lack of worldly experience, is that the rug is being pulled from under ALL of us.

Jetstar and Virgin pay scales and conditions of employment are significantly lower than has previously been paid.

Where then would you have a QF pilot go if he / she isn't happy? We are supposedly at the top of our tree in Oz? The answer is NOWHERE in Australia.

OK, overseas you say? Well, hello? Some of us have families, young children, WE DON'T WANT TO GO OVERSEAS!

OK, find another career you say? Yeah, good idea Einstein. Most of us are not in the position to do that, financially, or physically.

Wake up and smell the coffee my friend.

Don't bother telling me or my colleagues not to complain, until you have walked a mile in my shoes. And believe me, I HAVE walked a mile in yours.

[Casper]

In the past, many pilots who did NOT want to go overseas were forced to do so in order to retain employment in the industry. And, yes, they also had families with kids at school. It wasn't easy BUT the financial rewards were there.

Are you guys nearing that decision?

[ABX]

I wonder what will happen to QF morale following the announcement of the MB lead takeover bid? :hmm:

Cheers,

ABX

[roamingwolf]

Casper,

Everyone has a price or a point they will not go beyond.The trick is that this is different for everyone.

[Visual Procedures]

Looks like another F/O reached 'that point' this week.. Sure, 3 is no mass evacuation.. But 3 F/O's in a month certainly doesn't indicate morale is fine :uhoh:

[rammel]

I was under the impression that the only reason a pilot left QF, was retirement or medical. To me 3 in a year for any other reason would be a lot, 3 in a month indicates a problem. And also that perhaps the grass is greener these days elsewhere. I'm not a pilot, but this is the perception I have gathered over the years.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Did a rare overnight in MEL last night and the PJ scuttlebutt is that a fourth QF F/O will resign in the next week or so, and that at least a further four are awaiting the nod from EK...!

But there's no morale problem because people aren't leaving....

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

All QF LH FO's have a command endorsement on the type they operate. It allows QF to cheaply fly heavy crews with one captain instead of the two that other airlines use.

Qantas isn't losing FO's, they are losing experienced cruise captains paid at an FO rate.
Other airlines, short of experienced captains are starting to look long and hard at the huge reserve of experience, and the heavy metal command endorsements that these pilots have.

Memo Qantas management: If you are waiting for a bunch of captains to leave before you do anything.... it's already happening.

[roamingwolf]

Not that I feel sorry for young Geoff in the slightest but I think he might have his hands full for the first time in his capacity at QF. All he is thinking about right now is all he probably ever thinks about and that is himself.

[32megapixels]

Ok, morale must be really low if these guys are going to EK.

I thought that the conditions in EK were worse than Qantas ($$), but of course that's not all we want I guess.

So what's the go, is that true?

[N2O]

I thought that the conditions in EK were worse than Qantas ($$), but of course that's not all we want I guess.

So what's the go, is that true?
Found an easy way to cut and paste, some details have been changed slightly,(just in case some one in the office objects). Not included are educational expences paid direct to the school by Ek. Make of it what you will. I will answer any questions via PM.
Exchange rate-(conservative and rough) 3AED=1 $ AUD

Payments
Appointment Allowan 60,000.00 (TRI, training Capt. allowance)
Appointment Allowan 3,220.81
Appointment Allowan 400.00
Basic Salary 363,600.00
Concessional Travel 565.00
Education Support A 15,460.70
Exchange Rate Prote 26,940.00 (because $oz is much stronger now)
Productivity Pay Ca 40,700.60 (over time)
Profit Share 34,050.00 (thanks Boss! has been up to 10 weeks in past)
Telephone Allowance 540.00
Transport Allowance 9,900.00 (TRI, transport to sim allowance as above)
Transport Allowance 532.26
Utilities Allowance 116,465.00 (now 125,000)if not using company provided
housing. Not enough for rent though.

Total Gross 671,990.34

Deductions
Concessional Travel 15,290.00 (escape coupons)
EK Clinic Dental Ai 25.00
EK Clinic Miscellan 33.00
EK Clinic Over the 819.00 (drugs)
Education Support A 1,780.00 (exra above what EK pays)
Medical Company Ins 1,450.00
Medical Employee In 100.00
Medical Insurance P 2,859.96 (for family)
PF B Account Contri 18,200.25 (like super contribution without the hassel)
Perdiem Expenses De 1,700.14 ?
Telephone Charge Re 5,679.65
Visa Immigration Ch 5,062.00 (for family maid)

Total deductions 53,000.00

Net Pay Amount 619,000.37
No tax, basic living or education expenses to cover. You do the math.
...Oh promotion as well.

[32megapixels]

Friday, November 24, 2006
619,000.37 Utd. Arab Emir. Dirham = 217,610 Australian Dollar
619,000.37 Australian Dollar (AUD) = 1,760,770 Utd. Arab Emir. Dirham (AED)
Median price = 0.35126 / 0.35155 (bid/ask)
Estimated price based on daily US dollar rates.

FXConverter - Currency Converter for 164 Currencies164 Currency Converter (http://www.oanda.com/convert/classic) © 1997-2006 by OANDA.com (http://www.oanda.com/).


So tell me, that was for a training captain.

Ok, so the tax system is better over there, but is it worth living in the sandpit!



I must add though, if EK would put up a Sydney base, then that would be interesting.

[Veruka Salt]

Atleast one of these 767 F/Os is going to Cathay, based in OZ on very comparable t & c's to those he currently enjoys in Qantas.

Others have been discussing Direct Entry Command contracts with Air Japan.The opportunities are out there. Supply and demand works both ways . .

[N2O]

CHOICES CHOICE CHOISES, its all about (work)CHOICES
If you are (overly)ambitious, ie actually want to make it to the left seat, the choice is to go elsewhere. If you are in the left hand seat already or want the Oz lifestyle stay.
However, there are significant financial risks to remaining in Oz.
Oil shock.
A government owned operator in a oil rich province has to be a better bet than a either a public or private qf.

Takeover risk
If MaqBank is successful, this puppy is going to mortgaged to the hilt. Any crisis could precipitate a financial train wreck. Guess who bears the risk? The staff, suppliers and customers.

"Consider also the value of the deal if interest rates continue to rise next year, Qantas has a mid-air calamity and oil prices skyrocketed"
Chanticleer, AFR Friday 24 Nov 2006

This would put a private qf into a chapter 11 style scenario. Think your superannuation is safe because it is in a separate company?
My understanding of the Ansett insolvency, staff become creditors, fighting to get your their own contributions, plus 9% since 1992, despite more generous entitlements in their contracts, ouch!
Could this happen again?
Of course, now we have super choices, moving your money elswhere may be prudent.

[WynSock]

Hi all,
this puppy is going to mortgaged to the hilt. Any crisis could precipitate a financial train wreck. Guess who bears the risk? The staff, suppliers and customers.



Having considered this very situation, I am about to remove my super from quaintarses grasp and stick it into an independant aussie share fund.
Having had a reasonable amount of super from elsewhere when I joined, I would be especially bitter if GD nicked off with his share of the $110 mil, leaving me the crumbs.
And on morale again...
Do you ever bother to peruse PPrune GD? I guess not.
Perhaps the Chief Accountant does. I was reading an article about how most of the "easy" cost savings had been implemented in the relentless QF drive to the bottom line. One of those is, I assume, the fuel levy on Staff Travel. Maaaaate if you think that was an "easy" money saver, you are in for a rough ride. it has been taken very badly by all the staff I have talked to.

[Continental-520]

One would think that even on a salary which was less than other F/O's around the world, the F/O's would stay since motivation isn't primarily influenced by financial remuneration, and that the Australian lifestyle offerings would outweigh the difference in salary that QF offer.

Since they are leaving at an alarming rate anyway, one really needn't take a long hard look at the scenario to figure out that the cause must be morale/job satisfaction related.

Is it any wonder when it's going to take anything up to 18 years for a Captaincy??

Ugh....:yuk:


520.

[roamingwolf]

Promotion is not the only reason that crew are leaving .Back in the 70's it would take nearly that time for promotion as well.We had second officers with that much experience or close to it and who could actually do take offs and landings.

No this is more about the light at the end of the tunnel being extinguished.If you know what is going to happen when you get to that stage most will wait but now when you get to that point the rewards will not be worth the wait.

[Lodown]

It's just my opinion, but I think Qantas has a bigger problem than low morale. With all the cuts in the various departments, pilots leaving, etc., I don't see how the company can continue to meet the needs of its customers. These measures might make the company look good in the short term to achieve a maximum price for sale, but they are impacting the long term viability. My last three return trips overseas on QF have all been late. Not by a few minutes, but by hours. The last flight I took involved a 14 hour delay either in the terminal or on the aircraft. Two aircraft went U/S and then a crew with spare hours had to be found. It wouldn't do me any good to complain. There are other airlines. The flights might not be direct, but at least I can be relatively confident of my arrival time. And people accuse the US government of protectionist policies!!!

If this proposed sale doesn't result in a speedy turnaround to current business practices, Qantas better pray that the Aussie pollies remain in its backpocket for the foreseeable future.

There was a discussion some time ago about SIA requesting access to the AUS-USA routes. There were responses for and against. Until QF has some real competition either in reality or as a viable threat, both in terms of purchasing and in employment terms, it will continue to carry on in its current manner.

[DutchRoll]

I was in Griffinblack's shoes (well, a blue suit rather than a green one) for a long time and have been with QF for a few years now. Repeating what I said before, it just ain't that easy. Hats off to you if you have a missus & kids who don't mind not knowing what's around the corner, where you'll be in 3 years time, or being dragged from pillar to post, or your working conditions being attacked. I dare say most of us don't. And there's no shortage of pilots who thought they did, only to return one day to an empty house.

Pilots and other staff don't want to leave Qantas because it has traditionally been a very good stable airline with excellent conditions and based in Oz. Despite that, they still want to express their anger & disappointment with what is being done to the company on all fronts at the moment and they bloody well have a right to. If you don't like it, don't read it. Stop whinging about people whinging, and until you've actually left the job you thought you'd hold until retirement, stop saying "just leave" as if you can simply snap your fingers and teleport yourself to a Tahitian beach with local girls serving you pina-coladas and seafood platters until you die (very happily).

Regarding the ADF treating their people like human beings. Where do I start? For those who hold it, that is an extraordinarily naive point of view. Despite certain exceptions and unit cameraderie, the ADF is anything but a "people-friendly" organisation in the longer term, irrespective of the benefits like housing etc. My experience was of a notoriously inefficient and bloated bureaucracy, with a substantial proportion of poor leaders and managers, and I know through my contacts that nothing much has changed!

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

I think the fundamental point in all this is why can't one of the worlds best airlines have pay and conditions that are one of the worlds best? If the management are saying they aren't competetive with these pays and conditions, is this reflected in profits? What other factors effect it's ability to compete?

I would agree that the industry is changing but for who? Shareholders, punters or staff? There will always be a place for QANTAS and it's conditions should reflect the pride and quality of the company, it didn't get to where it is by being a low cost carrier and GD and cohorts should stop thinking of it as one.

As for people leaving if they don't like it, why should they? We have a world class airline and it's employees should be able to get pays that reflect this.

Selah

[Dropt McGutz]

They do have worlds best pay and conditions. For the executives.