Operating Minimas

[clicker]

Wonder if a kind lad or lass could settle a small argument I had with a workmate, during a rather boring night shift.

We are not ex services but have a background in civil aviation and we were talking about aircrew operating minimas and how they may differ between training and operational flying.

I thought that if a crew had been trained to fly down to X vis and Y ceiling and they were then sent into an operational area and expected to fly in combat then the same levels of X and Y would remain unless extra training was applied.

However my workmate felt that the limits would be lowered to allow for a combat situ, something I felt was dangerous because the lowered limits added to the combat would be asking for an accident to happen.

Not asking for any details and no doubts there are other factors that are taken into account but in the example above I'm assuming all these are the same ie terrain, aircraft type, attack profile etc.

Thanks clicker

[Tourist]

Once it's wartime and operational there are no limits.

Kick the tyres and light the fires, spurs fully mounted!

[clicker]

Thanks Tourist

[Pontius Navigator]

OTOH the official mantra is 'train in peace for how you would fight in war.'

The ground has a PK of 1 (probability of kill is certain) and officially it is not as Tourist said 'no rules'.

What was important, when applying the mantra, was to eschew unnecessary peacetime restraints and provide the opportunity to reduce low flying minimums of 250 feet (to avoid annoying the indigenous population) to 100 feet or so in places where the population do not have a vote.

In the cold war period there was probably insufficient operational low flying training to go around- ie a newly qualified pilot would not get a 100 ft qual the following day.

Before anyone is inclined to rip my throat out, the Nimrod was cleared down to 100 feet (when authorised). The weakness in that order was it did not say who could so authorise. One trip the sqn cdr, in the back, authorised us to a 100 foot MOA. (I don't know what conclusion a BOI would have made unless the tapes were recovered.

We then proceeded to try and identify a warship while avoiding missile lock. We got in to 4 miles and a gentle turn, the rad alt oscilating at about 88 feet. They didn't get a lock. Now that was training following the mantra but our pilot was hugely experienced on Gannets and Nimrods.

[clicker]

Thanks PN

Makes it a lot clearer although I admit the low level limits had escaped the conversation, not a surprise as that doesnt come into the commercial pilots world (hopefully :E ) and my current charges zap around at 0 ft AGL with 4 wheels on the ground, well most of the time.

[RobinXe]

I like that you pluralised a plural :D:ok:

[keithl]

Thanks PN
Makes it a lot clearer although I admit the low level limits had escaped the conversation, not a surprise as that doesnt come into the commercial pilots world (hopefully :E ) and my current charges zap around at 0 ft AGL with 4 wheels on the ground, well most of the time.
Clicker - has PN fully answered your question? He's absolutely right as far as he goes, but which ceiling and vis limits were you talking/asking about? You see, from the context of your original question, I got the impression you were thinking of something like the VMC limits. In which case, I'd have answered, "VMC & IMC disappear in wartime. The only weather limits that apply are those dictated by the equipment you carry, either for flying (e.g. TFR) or for the task (e.g. IR, PNG etc).
Is that relevant to your question?

[Two's in]

Not forgetting that the approriate minima are always published in some dark recess of a services publication for every given scenario, just so the subsequent Board Of Inquiry have the opening Terms of Reference if nothing else.

[clicker]

Hi keithl,

As you may gather my aviation skills were limited to the civil side where WX is a large factor in operating safely.

So, if I have gauged this correctly, while in peacetime a pilot may have limits imposed on him for a range sortie, ie cant go a for target if the ceiling is below 500ft, he could, however, go for a target in wartime with a ceiling below 500ft if the equipment allows, even if that was what he had for the range sortie.

RobinXe,
English was never my best subject at school some 40 odd years ago. :ok:

Cheers clicker

[Could be the last?]

PN

100' you will need oxygen at that hgt.........

[Pontius Navigator]

PN
100' you will need oxygen at that hgt.........

Toilet paper, not oxygen. Oxygen afterwards.

Anyway, who said 100ft? That was the authorised altitude but we didn't make it :E

[NoseGunner]

Am I right in saying more Tornado crew died in GW1 due to flying into the ground than due to the Iraqis shooting at them? If not, its close. The point being that the trick is to know when to push the limits and where you get to your own capability limits. Not always easy.:(

[Pontius Navigator]

. . . died in GW1 due to flying into the ground than due to the Iraqis shooting at them?

I don't know but I was told a month or so back that one aircraft flew into the ground and it was neither crew error, enemy action, or even blue on blue.

More training might have helped but more likely not.

More than that I will not say.

[MightyGem]

Am I right in saying more Tornado crew died in GW1 due to flying into the ground than due to the Iraqis shooting at them
From an edition of Aviate:

Aviate(Defence Aviation FS Mag). During WW2 RAF and Luftwaffe lost 40-45% of aircraft due to accidents. Soviets 57%. In GW1 33 accidents to 42 combat losses. GW2, 9 accidents, 7shot down.