Royal Albert Hall

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Just finished. Bloody good show. All involved. Very moving.

WWW

[Wycombe]

Yep, agreed, the "muster" from those currently serving looked a bit thin though didn't it - can't think why that might be :rolleyes:

Not quite sure why they had to jazz-up "Abide With Me" in that fashion though - not very traditional.

Apart from that, yes it was very well done.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

The feature on the injured Ammunition Technical Officer was very well done, bringing home the stark reality of the human cost.

[EODFelix]

Yep, Pete Norton - couple of intakes after mine. Received an email from him just b4 he went out.

[WIWOWessex]

I agree totally, the whole occasion was very moving. The muster was, as usual, crisp and well drilled, a tribute to those who took part and organised the ceremony. Well done the Royal British Legion.It was just a pity that the discipline and well practised drill was not matched by the Chiefs of Staff at the Cenotaph today, what a shambles!!! They should be ashamed of themselves. The vast majority of the civilians involved put in a better performance... at least they were in step!!!

[Roland Pulfrew]

Yep, agreed, the "muster" from those currently serving looked a bit thin though didn't it - can't think why that might be :rolleyes:
Not quite sure why they had to jazz-up "Abide With Me" in that fashion though - not very traditional.

I thought that the muster was exceptionally thin. If ever there was evidence of the forces being overstretched this was it. The TA must have made up the majority of the service personnel present on the floor (no slight or insult to the TA intended before anyone accuses me of doing so)!! I actually thought the muster somewhat embarrassing - but then I am also pleased because it might give a hint to the politicians that we are overstretched, despite what our senior officers might say, but I guess the Bliars didn't even notice.:ugh:

Anyone know if it is traditional for CDS to be present in the PM's box?

[gar170]

I thought that the muster was exceptionally thin. If ever there was evidence of the forces being overstretched this was it. The TA must have made up the majority of the service personnel present on the floor (no slight or insult to the TA intended before anyone accuses me of doing so)!! I actually thought the muster somewhat embarrassing - but then I am also pleased because it might give a hint to the politicians that we are overstretched, despite what our senior officers might say, but I guess the Bliars didn't even notice.:ugh:

Anyone know if it is traditional for CDS to be present in the PM's box?

I don't think these idiots that we vote for every 4 yrs would notice if the taliban moved into no 10 they would still say that the forces are not overstretched

[Chugalug2]

well practised drill was not matched by the Chiefs of Staff at the Cenotaph today, what a shambles!!! They should be ashamed of themselves. The vast majority of the civilians involved put in a better performance... at least they were in step!!!

Just watched the rerun on the Beeb, and yes you are right, the first time their drill has been open to criticism. To be fair though, the only one in step was the CAS and did you know he has over 4000 hours in fast jets? Said in hushed and respectful tones by Dimbleby, so it must be true!

[Flatus Veteranus]

I thought that both the RAH and Cenotaph ceremonies were excellent, and Auntie Beeb's coverage was to the usual high standard. My only comment is that Dimplebum might have identified the lady who carried a wreath to the Cenotaph next to Tony Bliar. I believe it was the Kiwi PM, in London for the opening of the Kiwi war memorial in Hyde Park.

[Chugalug2]

I thought that both the RAH and Cenotaph ceremonies were excellent, and Auntie Beeb's coverage was to the usual high standard. My only comment is that Dimplebum might have identified the lady who carried a wreath to the Cenotaph next to Tony Bliar. I believe it was the Kiwi PM, in London for the opening of the Kiwi war memorial in Hyde Park.

Yes, you are right FV she was, and Dimbleby did at one point say so, also later explaining that NZ was not represented in the Commonwealth Laying of Wreaths as she had already done so. Despite my above comments, the Cenotaph ceremony was if anything more moving than usual. I was OK until I saw those very young kids marching by with their mum, and they were wearing their dad's medals. Very smart and so proud. Fair cracks you up doesn't it?

[vecvechookattack]

Dimplebum also mentioned that this is the 25th Anniversary of teh Falklands Campaign...hmmmmmmmmm

[Pontius Navigator]

Dimplebum also mentioned that this is the 25th Anniversary of teh Falklands Campaign...hmmmmmmmmm

Perhaps that is why he was so respectful of the CAS's hours as maths may not be his strong point.

Agree with all the posts above. Didn't the veterans display superb marching skills. Good training, you don't forget.

[gravity victim]

I was very proud to watch my daughter singing with her school choir at the Albert Hall (red robes, with RN square collars). However she confirmed that during rehearsal that awful electric guitar riff in 'Abide with Me' had everybody in fits of disbelieving laughter. Also, there was some booing as Mme Blair arrived.

[effortless]

I'm sorry but I thought that the Band of the Royal Marines sounded like some spam drum majorette parade. Tin hat ready for incoming.

[Yeller_Gait]

Perhaps Sky got it right, excellent coverage, correctly identified Helen Clark and got the 25th of the Falklands as next year.

Very moving ceremony all told.

Y _G

[4fitter]

RAH - yes as always moving. Also very empty compared to previous years. Didn't mind the RM showing off their musical versatility. Still feel it was hijacked by 'celebs' with no real Service - Chris de Burgh excepted.

Mrs 4f and I had a domestic as she feels very strongly about RAH - she attended a number of years ago - and I reminded her that my numerous years service compared to hers made my view more relevant - wrong move !

[brit bus driver]

Was it just me, or did CAS set off with the final echelon of ambassadors/high commisiioners before being piulled back by CGS?
Might have been me as I was trying to relay the gravitas of the occasion to my two-year old. Start 'em early on something this important I say. Echo the previous sentiments of a most moving ceremony.

[Kitbag]

4fitter, have I missed something, does CdB actually have some mil service hidden away, or is he, like most of his generation, merely related to someone with military service?

[PPRuNe Pop]

I made it a point this year to have my two grandchildren with me to watch. My 10 year old grandson was very keen to understand why all those all taking part were not all military. He does now.

John Nicol looked very smart.

As for the Chiefs, words fail.

[Pontius Navigator]

Especially impressive were all the heads of State, I mean the lines of HOS. They moved as one, as if they had been drilled by the Brigade of Guards.



On second thoughts, they probably had.

[Cumbrian Fell]

I attended the opening of 'Southern Stand' in Hyde Park corner - well done to the Kiwis and everybody else who participated. However, I also watched the RBL business in the RAH on the television I can't help but think that the format is a little anachronistic and had a wiff of 'National Service' crossed with a 'Seniors Mess' about it. Apart from funerals (and there are, regrettably, too many of these) RAF personnel don't wear Service Dress and don't 'do' drill. And from what I see being based on a Garrison now, nor do the army. Not a particularly accurate and contemporary representation of the forces. And do service nursing staff still wear their 'Carry On' headdress in NHS hospitals of today?

I am sure I will be pilloried about these views, but it seemed that the vast majority attending the show were of retirment age and the content would have little of interest to a younger audience, who perhaps are the ones who need to gain the appreciation of past sacrifices and what HM forces are doing now. Simply jazzing up 'Abide with me' - the sort of effort I recall 'with it' vicars trying to do in the 1970s - is not enough. Relevance and poignancy - portrayed by the gallant GC ATO - is what the forces is really about.

Thoughts?
CF

[Pontius Navigator]

CF,

You have a point. The one about nurses ocurred to me too.

For drill OTOH you are only partly correct.

In initial training all servicemen are trained to march. Marching is the post efficient way of moving a bunch of people from a to b on foot albeit it takes time to form them up. Look at the old boys at the Cenotaph, they all remembered how to march.

Drill is part of Drill and Ceremonial. It is the Ceremonial for which we need drill. The Guards, the funeral cortage etc are all necessary manifestations. The bands are rightly marching bands and the RAF Colour Sqn is part of our Ceremonial.

So drill and ceremonial are still practised and therefore not in a way anachronistic. Whether the drill and ceremonial in the RAH format should be changes is a different argument. The old Royal Tournament display was the modern display with a mix of modern arms and pageantry. Now I wonder why we stopped that?:*

So, what format would you suggest for the RAH?

[Cumbrian Fell]

PP
I am aware that Drill and Ceremonial is still a significant component of initial officer and recruit training, however unless you are in QCS or spend spare time assisting an Air Cadet unit, drill is not a significant part of life in the RAF. Perhaps a stand showing harrased officers in CHQ trying to balance the books, produce two page 'estimates' and trying to get email connectivity. Alternatively, groups of tradespeople f'ing and blinding in 45 degrees, with sand everywhere trying to keep a platform serviceable, whilst the DLO apparatchiks talk of JIT philosophy on an away-day at a health spa. Or the family of a young squaddy (deployed) having to wait an average of a month to get a failed HW boiler replaced in their SFA whilst MODern Housing Solutions attempt to establish a supply chain, some 12 months into the contract.
No, in second thoughts, the public wouldn't believe that, either!

[Pontius Navigator]

CF,

In other words you want the Royal Tournament.

How would you organise the RAH?

[MostlyModerate]

I too would be glad to learn of the relevance of Chris de Burgh to the Armed Forces in general and the RBL in particular ??

[mystic_meg]

I too would be glad to learn of the relevance of Chris de Burgh to the Armed Forces in general and the RBL in particular ??
IIRC, he said that his Grandfather had fought in WW1, (possibly missing/KIA, but I'm not sure.) Other than that, he seemed to have written a song about remembrance and was keen to share it with the public at large. :ok:
Muster was woefully small compared to previous years, (understandably,) and displays seemed shorter/less numerous too. Thought Huw Edwards did a good job though.

[November4]

BBC News Article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6127984.stm)

WWI truce letter sold for £14,000

Singer Chris de Burgh has paid £14,400 for a letter written by an unknown soldier describing the Christmas Day truce in 1914.
The document is one of the few first accounts of the famous event when German and British troops briefly halted hostilities at Ypres, Belgium.

Signed simply 'Boy' the hand-written 10 page letter was penned by a young soldier whose fate remains unknown.

De Burgh made a telephone bid for the object when it came up for sale.

London auction house Bonhams had expected the item to fetch around £400.

Lady in Red singer De Burgh, 58, said he was fascinated by the truce.

"I am totally passionate about the subject. I read every line of the letter and found it an extremely moving and personal account of World War One," he said.

"The letter is a great historical document charting the surreal events of the 25 December 1914."

De Burgh added that his great uncle, Thomas de Burgh, was thought to be the first officer killed in the war, and his body was never found.

His grandfather also served in the trenches.

In the letter, dated 25 December, 1914 and addressed to "My dear Mater", the soldier wrote: "The Germans commenced by placing lights all along the edge of their trenches and coming over to us - wishing us a Happy Christmas etc.

"They also gave us a few songs etc. so we had quite a social party."

He went on: "They say they won't fire tomorrow if we don't so I suppose we shall get a bit of a holiday - perhaps.

"After exchanging autographs and them wishing us a Happy New Year we departed and came back and had our dinner.

"We can hardly believe that we've been firing at them for the last week or two - it all seems so strange."

Commonwealth War Graves Site (http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=1448812)

Name: DE BURGH, THOMAS
Initials: T
Nationality: Indian
Rank: Lieutenant
Regiment/Service: 31st Duke of Connaught's Own Lancers
Secondary Regiment: 5th (Royal Irish) Lancers
Secondary Unit Text: attd.
Age: 26
Date of Death: 17/09/1914
Additional information: Son of Lt. Col. Thomas John de Burgh and Emily de Burgh, of Oldtown, Naas, Co. Kildare.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 3.
Memorial: NEUVE-CHAPELLE MEMORIAL

Guess that is wrong when they list his nationality as "Indian".

HOWEVER......

This was discussed on the Great War Forum (http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=63024&hl=de+burgh)

The CWGC has the follwoing as the first officer casualty

Name: PERRY, EVELYN WALTER COPLAND
Initials: E W C
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Second Lieutenant
Regiment/Service: Royal Flying Corps
Age: 23
Date of Death: 16/08/1914
Additional information: Son of Walter Copland Perry, M.A., Ph.D., Barrister-at-Law, and Evelyn F. Perry (nee Stopford), of 29, Thurloe Square, South Kensington, London. The first British Officer killed on active service in France during the Great War.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: 7.
Cemetery: ST. ACHEUL FRENCH NATIONAL CEMETERY, AMIENS

But there are a couple of others who might were killed before.

Second Lieutenant R R Skene of Number 3 Squadron has a claim to be the first officer to lose his life in the war when he took off from Netheravon Airfield to fly to France on August 12, dying when his Blériot hit trees. His passenger, Keith Barlow, also died. Four days later, the same squadron's Second Lieutenant E W C Perry became the first British officer to die on active service in France.

[MostlyModerate]

Thank you. As I suspected, no relevance.
Most of us lost an ancestor in the Great War.
Having £14,000 to burn on a letter a few days before November 11th surely does not entitle him to abuse one of our best loved and poignant hymns.
And what possessed the Director of Music to permit the banshee wailing of an electric guitar to intrude upon a few moments of collective reflection ?

MM

[GPMG]

I'm sorry but I thought that the Band of the Royal Marines sounded like some spam drum majorette parade. Tin hat ready for incoming.


Wish I had seen it now, just so I could defend what is the greatest military band service in the world...bar none. Smart as a Guard....twice as hard, and thats just the bandies.

[Spit the Dog]

Just returned from the RAH, I feel I must declare that all the misconceptions that I had about the QCS have all been proved entirely wrong. Having spent nearly a week witnessing at first hand how these guys do business, I am left with only the feeling of total respect. In nearly 30 yrs service, I have never had the pleasure of meeting such proud, utterly professional group of individuals. From the WO down to the LAC, they are all driven by the same aim, if only things could be reflected else where through out the service. The QCS depart this week for their stint in southern Iraq, proving that they are not just ‘square borne’, I wish them a safe 4 month tour and look forward to meeting them again.

[Cumbrian Fell]

Pontius,

Regretfully I am not an events organiser so I am cautious to suggest a new format for the event. However, I suspect that you agree that the current format is a little tired and , if you excuse the NuLab term, it lacks relevance to today's target population. Perhaps the Royal Tournament, axed for apparent lack of relevances, is, indeed, relevant. Somehow, I think that yoof of today, in need of reminding of the role of HM Forces (not taught in our craven national curriculum) would find the flash, bang, gee wizz (and some drill and ceremonial) of a Royal Touranment a little more attractive than some aged Blist singer from the 1980s singing to people old enough to be their great grandparents.

[Wader2]

With respect to Indian nationality, this relates to the various nationality acts at the time. My grandfather was born in Eire but all his children were born in India. The India Office therefore classified my mother as Indian birth.

IIRC it was after the Nationality act of 1949 that entitled her to claim a British passport.

[circle kay]

Pontius,

Re the full “Oh Matron” military nurses uniform. I went to a NHS hospital in Portsmouth during the summer to visit a sick relative and I’m delighted to report that the RN nurses working there still wore the full kit :D

[SamCaine]

Pontius,

..... the RN nurses working there still wore the full kit :D

You checked? The full kit? :D

[Pontius Navigator]

Pontius,
Re the full “Oh Matron” military nurses uniform. I went to a NHS hospital in Portsmouth during the summer to visit a sick relative and I’m delighted to report that the RN nurses working there still wore the full kit :D

I must be going blind. I can't find a reference to matron although I vaguely recall wondering about the nurses uniform. Old age eh!

[circle kay]

Sam,
I think it’s important from a morale point of view to continue the military myth that female members of the RN (no WRNS any more just like no WRAFs) are required to wear “full kit” by QRs

[SamCaine]

c_k, I was more impressed by that fact that you knew they were :ok:

[November4]

Nationality: Indian

Guess that is wrong when they list his nationality as "Indian".



On another forum I had the following reply to the Indian / Irish comment about CdB

The nationality refers to the unit and not the man. His regiment is an Indian unit and so 'Indian' is correct.

CWGC would have no knowledge of casualties' personal nationality and could not record it. Each record has to be allocated to one of the member nations of CWGC so that financial contributions can be calculated. This is done by allocating each unit a 'nationality' according to origins of the unit.

[eyespied]

The bottom line guys and gals is to keep up the support and donations to the Royal British Legion (RBL). They are the mainstay in grants and support to ex-servicemen and dependents who have needs in later life. Some of you reading will be applicants in later life. Be Proud.

[EnigmAviation]

Never mind the Nurse's head dress style, I couldn't believe my eyes when one of the Nursing Officers ( QARANC ) on RH side descending onto the floor from the stairs of the RAH, was descending chewing a large sweet of a rather chewy variety whislt marching on !!. I re-checked the recording and my wifde checked it also and agreed - yes she was mid flight on an Army approved gobstopper !!! What have we descended to?

The commentary I found lacked the detail of earlier years and was not synchronised with the arrivals, but yes, a worthwhile event bar the Guitar accompaniment to "Abide with me" - AWFUL !

[Chugalug2]

PP
I am aware that Drill and Ceremonial is still a significant component of initial officer and recruit training, however unless you are in QCS or spend spare time assisting an Air Cadet unit, drill is not a significant part of life in the RAF.

Yes, and something needs to be done to make sure that the softer, fluffier image, so well exemplified by the CAS at the Cenotaph on Sunday, should be reflected throughout the Service! What a contrast between the informal and very individual take that he has on drill, and that shown by the very Air Cadets that you mentioned, right at the tail end of the march past. Such precision in dressing and marching that it caused comment, not by Dimbleby, who would not approve, but by his military minder! Perhaps a quiet word to their CO to 'tone it down a bit' might be on its way? Or perhaps the service chiefs might take time out next year and make sure that they are not an embarrassment again!

[14greens]

got to back up what spit the dog said! QCS approach to the training of us duffers that turned up on Monday morning was faultless! I have not been on a parade square in 20 years so needed the work (yes i did volunteer for the parade), and thanks to the profesionalism and dedication of the QCS guys I think the RAF contingent as a whole did a bloody good job.

Got to know some good people from other units in the process.

Thanks' to the whole of the QCS who welcomed us with an open bar :O and encouragement when we needed it without taking the mickey :D

Good luck for the next 4 months, stay safe fellas

[Chugalug2]

14G, glad that QCS came up trumps for you. Their touch really does come through and emphasises that everyone is putting in max effort to properly honour and pay tribute to our fallen. Every year I am particularly impressed on the March Past by the ladies in the WAAF contingent, resplendent in a striking blue tartan outfit and marching proudly and well, despite, if they will forgive me, the passage of time. Well done them, and well done you 14G.
Chug

[Spit the Dog]

Worst than the gum...during the full dress rehearsal on the Friday, one of the grunts mobile went off during the 2 minute silence....you can't make it up !!

[airborne_artist]

Bl**dy well done to the Air Cadets at the Cenotaph - was thinking how exceptionally smart their drill was, when out came the compliments from the TV commentator.

I didn't see the ATC at the Cenotaph, but I did see the Air Cadets at Wallingford's parade. Very smart indeed, and all in step. Wish I could say the same for the ACF contingent who were totally out of step and not very smart.

The 33/27 flypast was good this year, perfect timing, and much lower than in previous years :ok:

[GPMG]

Drill was always treated very seriously in my old cadet unit 134DF. We spent a lot of time practicing various movements and also did well at wing drill comps.

Helped me a lot during my training at Lympstone.

[Cumbrian Fell]

I still stand by my assertion that drill and ceremonial is not a big part of life in most of the RAF. What parades are held are lucky to have more that three understrength flights and the scheme of manouver is kept simple. Gone are the days of practice before the AOC's Parade or Queen's Birthday Parade - complete with the silent 'Advance in Review Order', when the whole station would turn out on the ASP with a band. Yes, it is easy to get nostalgic about those times, but in truth they were a bit of a b@lls-ache and cannot be countenanced with today's op tempo. My sword has not been unsheathed - except at the occasional wedding - for over 10 years.
Yes, QCS do an excellent job - and there was ne'er a dry eye when POW was conveyed at Northholt. But it is there job and we do ours. I don't expect a gunner to do my tedious job; similarly to portray 'life in the RAF' as spit and polish is disingenuous.
CF

[Roland Pulfrew]

I still stand by my assertion that drill and ceremonial is not a big part of life in most of the RAF. What parades are held are lucky to have more that three understrength flights and the scheme of manouver is kept simple. Gone are the days of practice before the AOC's Parade or Queen's Birthday Parade - complete with the silent 'Advance in Review Order', when the whole station would turn out on the ASP with a band. Yes, it is easy to get nostalgic about those times, but in truth they were a bit of a b@lls-ache and cannot be countenanced with today's op tempo. My sword has not been unsheathed - except at the occasional wedding - for over 10 years.
Yes, QCS do an excellent job - and there was ne'er a dry eye when POW was conveyed at Northholt. But it is there job and we do ours. I don't expect a gunner to do my tedious job; similarly to portray 'life in the RAF' as spit and polish is disingenuous.
CF
Obviously spelling is not part of your job either:ugh: , but well done on disingenuous:D
Oh God. I've turned into a spelling nazi:{

[Cumbrian Fell]

Two pints at happy hour...spelling goes out the window!