Emirates Or Cathay Pacific

[Cerberus]

We have al read the post that say a CX 'Toilet Attendant' earns more than an EK 'Universe Fleet Chief Pilot' so I thought I'd do some research.

Got my info from an open website which has the actual gen. (all in US Dollars). The site I looked at says that variable pay and housing allowances are not included for Cathay so I have not included them for EK either. I believe Cathay's variable pay is somewhat better than EK's though. Leave, medical and insurance etc seem comparable. Hong Kong tax takes about 16%; about the same as hidden taxes in Dubai. (Updated Feb 06)

Emirates

F/O $60,065-$69,331 (6 years)

Capt $87,040-$92,341 (3 years) $116,975 (10 years)

Cathay

S/O $49,878-$70,078 JFO $76,522

F/O $99,483-$104,645 SFO $108,000-$122,000

Capt $152,000- (I think becomes Snr Capt after 2 years)
Snr Capt $157,000-$186,000 (10 years) $210,580 (17yrs)


So, sadly by my reckoning:

1. A CX snr SO actually does earn more than a jnr EK F/O.
2. And; a CX F/O does earn more than an EK Capt.
3. A CX SFO earns more than a 10 year EK Capt.
4. And; a CX Capt earns 75% more than a EK Capt on appointment.

Thank god we have quick commands at EK, no DECs, a great rostering system, all the leave we could possibly want.....what we don't?

I have to be honest I actually found the figures quite shocking, I was planning to disprove the other posts. Hong Kong is a bit more expensive than Dubai but the fact is:

Permission to start blubbering, Sir!

Cerberus:{

[Quod Boy]

Cerberus, The CX housing allowance is VERY generous but it is expensive in HKG unlike here,there is a strict seniority list in CX,there is an upgrade policy adhered to based on DOJ,there is a pilots association,there is career progression that is published,there are strict FTLs,there are overseas bases,credit is given for simulator,standby and leave, the turnover of pilots at CX is very low,and the jump seat is avail to CX pilots if reqd..All very similar to here really.

Oh,there are some lovely buildings in HKG just like here.Ah yes, I forgot,its the lovely weather why we came to EK.Silly me,there really is no comparison when you look at it if youre not a lazy pilot like me who ponders where I will retire to on my huge provident fund on my recovery days or daydreaming which are very similar these days.Will it be France?Spain?Italy perhaps? Actually,come to think of it 180,000 usd after 12 years might get me a nice car.Silly me.

Im off to the pub,theyre much better here thats for sure,that Joe bananas place is very tacky.
QB:ok:

[Cpt. Underpants]

Most use their housing allowance (after it jumps to HKD45000 - 2 years) as a mortgage rather than rent, so it would not be unreasonable to add that $5700 (USD) - monthly - to the CX gross remuneration package.

[145qrh]

Yeah,Yeah, money,money, money, blah,blah,allowances, seniority.....WHO cares those poor buggers in CX don't get to live in Dubai--the city that cares ( about money and fleck all else).....

:{ :{ :p

[Dani]

It's not only CX that pays more than EK, it's everyone! Look around and see - even narrow body pilots earn more than EK drivers.
It's a bit unfair to compare those two...

Dani

[Snake man]

Thanks for the info, Cerberus! Just as I was thinking about coming off the Prozac.....

SM

[Jack D]

Let,s not forget the CX provident fund, quite decent I believe .

[wingslow]

It has also been mentioned on another thread that after 7 years you will get Permanent Residency in Hong Kong. In Hong Kong there is an established property market with real contracts and laws where you can invest your housing allowance.

In the UAE (EK) we are constantly reminded that we will never really be welcome in Dubai i.e. one of the locals. At EK we are told if you don't like watching what is happening to your wage with inflation out of control and rentals, you can always leave! That is after you have given up your seniority in the last airline etc. Nice attitude that helps build moral?:yuk:

Unless you want to part with your hard earned cash and the housing allowance (the allowance is not enough for mortgage, taxes, water, electricity and maintenance) in Dubai where you will be given a 2 page contract reminding you what you will pay to Emaar or any other developer and what laws you will follow.This is all for a block of land or apartment that can change dimension and aspect over night. Only then you will be given the right to stay in Dubai with some developers. BUT the laws change constantly in favour of locals or local developers. So don't bank on actually having a right to stay at the end.

Also should you ever have a scrape with the law (it is very easy in Dubai if you are an expat) then they will cancel your visa and you will be removed from the UAE. Then what happens to your little piece of paradise?:{
This is the reality.

[Dan Winterland]

Don't forget HK tax at around 17%

[petitfromage]

It therefore begs the question:

As CX are quite likely to recruit a batch of DEFOs to assist with its expansion and given the pay & basing policies already mentioned in this thread.....will people jump ship from EK to CX?

Im also wondering out loud why we keep seeing RH x 2 (both the male & female versions) from EK HR/Recruiting walking around CX City in HKG? RH(f) seems to be here quite a lot in fact.

Its no great secret that EK & CX recruiters have always 'kept in touch'. In the aftermath of the 49ers affair EK refused to interview CX pilots. Now though it would seem that a no poaching policy (unofficially of course!) would be beneficial to both companies (management not pilots) as they expand.

[CLEANCRUISER]

I have interviews with both EK & CX next month as a First Officer, and would seek peoples opinions on which one would be a better choice as an airline. Taking into consideration the remuneration package offered by both, which one stand taller than the other. Career wise and prospect of getting command, which will be most likely to be quicker.

Appreciate any light shed on this matter.

Thanks!:bored:

[expatula]

i am neither from EK nor CX. but if you spend enough time to browse over different threads about these two airlines, you will definitely get your answers.

my advice is take both interviews and decide later. it's always better to have a backup in case you don't make it in one. either way, i think you will be okay in any of these two. goodluck!

[Marooned]

Without a doubt try your best for CX.

On the outside EK may seem comparable to CX but on the inside it isn't even close. Compare like with like, pay/conditions/benefits etc, and CX will be the better option.

The fact is that EK has lost pilots to CX but we have no CX pilots trying to get into EK... we even have captains leave for CX as F/Os and others in the process such is the difference in Ts & Cs.

Good luck whatever happens.

[fatbus]

CX aged 55 DEC's came to EK,if you plan to work past 55 might be something
Hong Kong more expensive than Dubai, but Dubai is tring hard to catch up
Upgrades are shorter at EK ,but they do use the DEC option

[etops777]

Without a doubt try your best for CX.

On the outside EK may seem comparable to CX but on the inside it isn't even close. Compare like with like, pay/conditions/benefits etc, and CX will be the better option.

The fact is that EK has lost pilots to CX but we have no CX pilots trying to get into EK... we even have captains leave for CX as F/Os and others in the process such is the difference in Ts & Cs.

Good luck whatever happens.

We have an Airbus LTC left only to join CX as SO:ok:

[Cyberbird]

.... Man, You must be kiddin' us !?!?

...'cause - CX is almost 50% more money, stable rosters and guaranteed (!!) leave, whereas me (and most of some colleagues here) have more than 60d leave left with EK, which we just can't take - unless the "so called management" finds some nasty slots, nobody else's biddin' for - in late november or mid january :uhoh:

said that - i've just realized by now, You must be kiddin' us for sure !:bored:

...that was a really good one !!

[etops777]

.... Man, You must be kiddin' us !?!?
...'cause - CX is almost 50% more money, stable rosters and guaranteed (!!) leave, whereas me (and most of some colleagues here) have more than 60d leave left with EK, which we just can't take - unless the "so called management" finds some nasty slots, nobody else's biddin' for - in late november or mid january :uhoh:
said that - i've just realized by now, You must be kiddin' us for sure !:bored:
...that was a really good one !!

Mate, not april fools joke.

It's a FACT that 1 bus LTC did joined CX SO not too long ago.

[ShockWave]

As stated above read whats happening in the fragrant harbour forum and you will see that there are problems with both options.
CX does have a union of sorts, which EK does not. CX does not have fleet pay or rotating seniority etc They are different in many ways, lifestyle included.
CX does now employ rapid command pilots onto their freighter fleet and they have plenty of disgruntled F/O s just like EK as well.
EK does/did? have ex cx pilots working for them and now a few retired cx DECs as well.
I can't imagine that there are too many other EK pilots heading off to join cx as a S/O, so don't think that is a sign of anything definnitive.

Cx to their credit do offer their employees overseas bases which EK don't and we all wish they did.
There can be problems for many people after a time out living the expat life and cathay have found ways to keep senior employees working for them in a cost effective manner from their home countries.

Go to the interviews and decide on what is important to you not what other people might think.
There are many happy, contented pilots working for both airlines, but you will not find that many on pprune because they are probably off enjoying themselves, that leaves the rest of us who have issues to work out and pprune can be an outlet for many peoples frustrations.

[Check 'Six']

I'll give you the lomg version of what I feel you shoud do?

Go to Cathay and dont ever question your decision.

Good Luck

[gj18457]

Go to Cathay.You dont even have to think twice.I've been in the desert for 10 years and am applying for a F.O job with them.All the best with your interview.

[skywaytoheaven]

Both airlines unhappy, like most airlines it seems (if you read pprune) but definatly go to Cx, still a great airline - looking from the outside anyway.

[GoreTex]

join CX, to come to EK was my biggest mistake ever

[puff m'call]

CX any day.

EK :ugh:

[L1011]

Can only speak for EK and don't know anything about you.

If it was me, and I had a choice, it would be easy. CX without a doubt. I know the sandpit and would not come here now even if I could.

Good luck either way mate. Let us know what you think a year from now.;)

[Count von Altibar]

From what I know about the two operators it's a no brainer, Cathay.

[atiuta]

Cathay or Emirates, valid enough question.

I'm curious as to why the same question was not asked in the Fragrant Harbour forum?

[CLEANCRUISER]

A great thankyou to all those whom have responded to my message, its great to get other peoples opinions in this situation. I will obviously attend the both interviews and then make my decision what is best for me and my family.

I have also placed the same question in the Harbour section and dont worry, it would be interesting to see what response i get from people from that neck of the wood....so to speak....

Can anyone compare the level of difficulty between CX & EK interviews?...

:D

[southflyer]

I would choose CX

[boofta]

Where would you like to have your family? In the stinking Desert, where
its 40C for 9 months of the year on half the salary.
Or, in one of about 15 choices of basings around the world, many
career options, freighter commands, do some time in HKG, Cathay
will buy you a house.
What in hell are you doing comparing living in Dubai with LON SFO LAX
NYC DFW ATL FRA SYD MEL BNE PER YVR etc. on about twice the pay.
There are 2 main downsides at CX, pollution in HKG, and a dozen or so
moronic Check and Trainers. Otherwise its a no brainer!!!
Go and sit in the desert for your career, if you need some guidance
on the decision, visit Dubai anytime between say March and September.
Good luck with the decision. SHEESE you need help!

[expatula]

A great thankyou to all those whom have responded to my message, its great to get other peoples opinions in this situation. I will obviously attend the both interviews and then make my decision what is best for me and my family.
:D

right on, cleancruiser! considering all the differing opinions from both sides, the final decision is yours. goodluck! :ok:

[drongo]

CLEANCRUISER,

Reading your initial post I would suggest you concentrate on EK.

Overall rate of application to employment offer at CX for DEFO is less than 1 in 200, EK is an order of magnitude better.

CX is not the place to go if you want anything to happen quick. For a command you will be at least 4 years behind current SO being upgraded to FO. It’s a seniority system, you would have to wait for a SO employed before you for their command before you got yours. If you fail a check on the way, it could be never.

If you have the hours for DEFO at CX you would have the hours for DE command at EK, push for DE command at EK.

Use EK to get you into a position which seems closer to what you want, like from EK back to SQ in a few years. They will no doubt use you on the way, may as well return the treatment.

[Saltaire]

Seniority system? What a novel idea...just ask a senior Airbus FO who doesn't quailfy for command. Most of whom have many years of international widebody experience with first rate training that means nothing. Rico shows up with extensive "charter" experience on his 737, but has never left his country on a layover is given priority for command. Unreal :ugh: This outfit just has no idea on relevant experience, only hours in a logbook.

At least with CX the system is fair and reasonable.

[scanscanscan]

In Gf a 12years service Captain then newly promoted to the L1011 and also in charge of national training left to become a Cathay F/o.
Also a very good B737 Captain also left Gf to become a Cathay F/o.
That was in around 1981..........so this transfer of skills Eastwards is hardly new.
Then there were the many very good GF L1011 and B767 Captains that went to DEC SIA.
Cricky.... Even Gulf National Captains dumped GF for airlines Eastwards.
Double Cricky...Even the Gf CEO and his Management team went Eastwards.
I wonder why everyone goes Eastwards?

[ekpilot]

With an Amsterdam base opening up for A340 FOs (see F.I.) EK will have to make some serious adjustments to avoid having even more pilots leave for Cathay. A first class carrier employing people in the real world - who in their right mind would want to come to Dubai anymore? :confused:

[chinawladi]

Could someone post the F.I. add?

[spierpoint jones]

A340 First Officer - Europe
Posted
29 Nov 06
Close date
31 Dec 07
Location
Europe
Contact
Assistant Manager Flight Crew Recruitment Carol de la Harpe
Apply for this Job
Job Description
Minimum Requirements:

1) An ICAO Airline Transport Pilot's Licence (ATPL)

2) A minimum of 1000 hours in one of the following categories:
- Airline Jet Transport
- Command Turbo Prop (MAUW greater than 20,000 Kgs)
- High Performance Military Jet

3) A mimimum of 500 Airbus flying hours

4) A current Class One Medical

5) Fluent spoken & written English

6) Experience commensurate with age

7) The right to live and work in Europe

Available base: Amsterdam

To update or apply please visit the Careers Page of www.cathaypacific.com.

I would give my first born to live in Dubai and fly for Emirates ,but this is moot point...

Enjoy

jones:cool:

[chinawladi]

Thanks for the add, whereas your last comment could also qualify you for this:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2989285&postcount=31

:} china

[twieke]

Anybody any ideas about the payscale?

Thanks.

[Ghostflyer]

I can't remember which thread stated * "There is no way a Cathay Second Officer earns as much as an Emirates Captain."

Well here is some info taken from the following references and using todays exchange rate:

www.emiratesgroupcareers.com

and

http://www.askcaptainlim.com/aspilotsalarycathay.htm

Not taking either companies housing allowance into account; just looking at spondoolies here is the picture according to the references:

Emirates
Year 1 F/O 19660 AED/mth = 41555HKD/Mth = 498,660/Yr
Year 3 F/O 20857 AED/mth = 44085HKD/Mth = 529020/Yr
Year 1 Cap 28060 AED/Mth = 59310HKD/Mth = 711720/Yr
Year 8 Cap 34509 AED/Mth = 72941HKD/Mth = 875292/Yr

Looking at the scales below:

A 4 year Cathay S/O earns slightly more than a 3 Year EK F/O.
A Cathay F/O earns more than a starting EK Captain
'Obviously' Ek provides quicker promotion but a 3 Year Cathay Captain earns as much as a 13 Year Emirates Captain.


So whoever made the above * statement was nearly telling the truth. At least closer to the truth than EK when they spout about their basket of airlines and a competitive salary.

Ghost

==========================================================
This is the breakdown of Cathay Salaries in HKD from the reference:

Pilots Salary in Cathay Pacific Airways

Year Monthly (HK $) Annual (HK$)
Second Officer (SO)
1 $ 32,213.00 $ 386,556.00
2 $ 36,080.00 $ 432,960.00
3 $ 40,410.00 $ 484,920.00
4 $ 45,259.00 $ 543,108.00

Junior First Officer (JFO)
1 $ 49,421.00 $ 593,052.00
2 $ 55,352.00 $ 664,224.00

First Officer (FO)
1 $ 64,265.00 $ 771,180.00
2 $ 65,343.00 $ 784,116.00
3 $ 66,443.00 $ 797,316.00
4 $ 67,565.00 $ 810,780.00

Senior First Officer (SFO)
1 $ 69,854.00 $ 838,248.00
2 $ 71,639.00 $ 859,668.00
3 $ 73,478.00 $ 881,736.00
4 $ 75,371.00 $ 904,452.00
5 $ 77,322.00 $ 927,864.00
6 $ 79,331.00 $ 951,972.00

Captain
1 $ 98,375.00 $ 1,180,500.00
2 $ 100,135.00 $ 1,201,620.00

Senior Captain
1 $ 101,928.00 $ 1,223,136.00
2 $ 103,758.00 $ 1,245,096.00
3 $ 105,624.00 $ 1,267,488.00
4 $ 107,528.00 $ 1,290,336.00
5 $ 109,469.00 $ 1,313,628.00
6 $ 111,450.00 $ 1,337,400.00

Note: The above salary scales for Cathay Pacific Airways are based on basic pay only and does not include variable or housing allowances. Tax is 16% on basic pay with various allowances.

[Fox3snapshot]

Ghost...

You don't have the results and payouts of race 4 at Caulfield and the dogs at Ipswich Park do ya mate....?

All these numbers, so little time ....:E

[Ramboflyer 1]

Good on you ghost for telling it how it is. CX is still the number 1 choice .

[BigGeordie]

To get the full picture you would also have to compare the cost of living in both places. What matters to me is, for an equvlent lifestyle, how much I have left in my pocket at the end of the month (or how overdrawn I am:{ )

[Ghostflyer]

I have officially become a saddo. Here are the cost of Living 2006 stats:
http://www.finfacts.ie/costofliving.htm

Moscow.....123.9 #1
Hong Kong..116.3
London......110.6
NYC..........100
Dubai........87.8
LA............86.7
Toronto.....82.6
Frankfurt...80.5
Birmingham.79.7
Melbourne..78.8

That took me 2 minutes but sadly missed Monty's first wicket. I am no expert but I believe the reason Hong Kong is so expensive is because of rent and a lot of the guys live in the New Territories for that reason. (Bit like Sharjah..not!)

On the 'Big Mac' Index, Hong Kong is half the price of the Uk and less than Dubai. On the 'Tall Latte' Index, Hong Kong is the cheapest again.

http://www.finfacts.ie/Private/bestprice/bigmacindex2005.htm
http://www.finfacts.ie/Private/bestprice/bigmacindex2005.htm

So any Hong Kong experts, if you take out the cost of housing (the housing allowance should do that), is Hong Kong really more expensive than Dubai or cheaper. As a traveller I found it cheaper with my free hotel.

[74world]

I also don't work for either CX or EK, but I am in both Dubai and HKG every month, I have to say that if I had to chose I would probably take EK any day even though they are not the best airline to work for.....I already have difficulties putting up with the pollution in HKG and even worse, the continuous smell, at least in DXB you don't have the smell of **** 24/7!!!!!.....not to mention the Brit B/S in CX that pilots have to put up with in order to keep their jobs.

[777SandMan]

The question of EK vs CX is not so simple that it can be settled with a comparison of salary scales. It also depends if you are married, kids, where do you live now etc etc.

With kids EK better, they pay for expensive schooling. Single or with a handbrake only, then CX will be the better choice. If you live in a semi civilised country, then it might be better to stay. With both these companies, the autopilot goes on at 200' AGL and then the staring into the darkness commences:{ . Always thinks of the Simon and Garfunkel song, Sound of Silence, when we settle down inn the cruise - "Hallo darkness my old friend".

Think carefully before leaving to any of these companies. GOOD LUCK

[discovering]

CX vs EK pay - a fair comparison

To make a fair comparison of pay between EK & CX, you can't compare year 1 EK Captain with year 1 CX Captain (or Y1 EK F/O pay with Y1 CX FO) etc. You have to compare years of service with each company.

Posts on EK DEC pay point out that Y1 DEC's get paid more than Y1 EK Captains. The posts maintain that DEC pay should be based on service with the company.

Currently it takes around 3 years (depending on a/c type) as an F/O in EK to become a Y1 Captain.

In CX it currently takes 3+ years as an S/O before F/O training. Then promotion to Junior F/O and finally full F/O after about 4 years with CX.
CX time to Y1 Captain is currently around 8 years AS AN F/O. So time to CX Captain is around 12 years with the company.

To make a fair comparison of EK vs CX salary you have to compare years of service and appropriate salary, as well as taxation/living accomodation/benefits/lifestyle/location etc.

As well there is the glory(!)of being a Captain 8 years earlier in EK than with CX.

Year EK CX

1 Y1 F/O Y1 S/O
2 Y2 F/O Y2 S/O
3 Y3 F/O Y3 S/O
4 Y1 Captain Y1 F/O
5 Y2 Captain Y2 F/O
6 Y3 Captain Y3 F/O
7 Y4 Captain Y4 F/O
8 Y5 Captain Y5 F/O
9 Y6 Captain Y6 F/O
10 Y7 Captain Y7 F/O
11 Y8 Captain Y8 F/O
12 Y9 Captain Y1 Captain
13 Y10 Captain Y2 Captain
14 Y11 Captain Y3 Captain
etc etc etc

To make a fair comparison of EK vs CX, compare salary after years of of service with each company.
ie Y1 EK Captain with Y1 CX F/O, Y9 EK Captain with Y1 CX Captain.

The grass in the next field always looks greener.

[gj18457]

Fair enough comparison disco.However it will be hard to imagine anyone staying in EK more than 5 yrs anymore.In the end of the day you are better of committing to CX and aim for a longer career with a more professional company.Time at EK is mostly wasted and only good for guys to get widebody time.Not to mention the upset it will cause your family.

[tifters]

Discovering...to be even fairer, check on the cx time to command.
Currently guys coming through after 9 years service, approx 3 yrs s/o and 6 as f/o. They guys/gals doing 4 years as s/o now will most likely do less time as f/o with the up grades that are forecast.
I remember a time when 10 years to command on heavy jet was a pipe dream, now a reality.
Am with CX, must admit, even with all the usual crap we are trying in vain to fix, still a very good job for an Aussie at the mo!!
Good luck to you all in the Gulf, be patient, the pendulum is swinging!!!

[donpizmeov]

Tifters,

Mate if you get a spare couple of minutes, could you please explain how CX credit, and pay, 2 pilot ops at night, SIMs, long haul flights etc, and also at what block length CX adds a inflight relief please? I think some of the beverages I consume in HKG after hearing these has numbed my brain. Apart from the money, these are the major differences between CX and EK. One company allows you to have a life, the other works you to a early grave.

From an EK point of view, a pilot is credited with and paid for 1hr for each hour of block time, regardless of number of pilots, sector length or time of day. If a flight can be averaged to not need an inflight relief one will not be added, but the Captain will be asked (assumed) to use his discression to complete it. An EK pilot is not paid to do his SIM checks.

Don

[tifters]

Top of my head here.
For 2 pilots we are credited 1.14 per 1 hour block. 3 pilots 1.07 per 1 hour block. 4 pilots 1 for 1. (regardless of time)
Flights(sectors) greater than 9 hours require 3 pilots, or 8 hours if between 2am and 6 am local time where you started the duty.
Basically for most ULH flights require 4 pilots(although cx trying to change that). Is based on extending normal duty. Extension = rest taken/ 2 if in bunk or rest / 3 if in business seat. eg middle east flights, say normal duty allowed = 12 hours, if 3 pilots, the two operating crew must take 3 hours rest in the seat (business class seat) so they can extend duty by 1 hour.
Sims/leave/sick days/ground school are all credited but cant remember amount.
Hope that helps

[turtleneck]

ek would go broke with such regulations ...... i mean mentally broke.

[garyFR]

just 1 question
in cx second officer get only 20 days leaves!
do they have "like in eva air" some bloc of days off evry month....