QF Copilot Takes Command After Captain's 'Anxiety Attack'

[Airbubba]

Anxious pilot restrained as Qantas passenger jet landed

Stephen Moynihan
November 8, 2006

THE pilot of a jet carrying 177 passengers was suffering from anxiety and stress when he was restrained from flying his plane as it landed at Melbourne Airport last year.

The captain of the Qantas Boeing 767-300 aircraft reported feeling unwell soon after take-off from Auckland, New Zealand, on May 12. An Australian Transport Safety Bureau report on the incident says the captain left the flight deck and was given oxygen after telling cabin crew he felt nauseous and shaky.

The co-pilot took control of the jet over the Tasman Sea and alerted air traffic control and organised for an ambulance to meet the plane on landing in Melbourne.

A flight attendant was posted inside the cockpit to monitor the condition of the co-pilot.

Before the plane landed, the pilot returned to the cockpit. The report says: "His seat, seatbelt and harness were adjusted so that he could not inadvertently interfere with the operation of the aircraft."

The plane landed safely. The pilot was treated by paramedics at the airport and admitted to hospital.

The pilot told investigators he had a been suffering anxiety problems for several years, but they were not related to his work.

The pilot was taking anti-depressants for his condition and was also undergoing treatment for hypertension.

He also reported sleeping poorly the night before the flight and suffering from a sinus infection.

The investigation found the pilot's anxiety may be have risen from low blood pressure because of his medication, fatigue and a head cold.

The Civil Aviation Safety Authority was aware of the pilot's condition before the flight and his ability to fly was constantly monitored.

Australian and International Pilots Association general manager Peter Somerville said airlines monitored the mental health of pilots, but more education was needed.

"I'm confident there are sufficient support structures in place. Dealing with these problems and the more we are educated about them, the safer we will be," Mr Somerville said.

Qantas would not comment on the incident.


http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2006/11/07/1162661685133.html#


Here is the ATSB report:

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2005/AAIR/pdf/aair200503921_001.pdf

[jondc9]

was the pilot taking anti depression drugs during this inflight episode or started treatment afterwards?

[vapilot2004]

This is a good example of the profitable doping of otherwise normal healthy people, sanctioned by well-meaning but ill-informed doctors gone terribly wrong. These over-medicated folks may need only a few changes in life, spiritural guidance or perhaps just some time to heal emotionally.

I have met few people who have actually been helped by such medications. Many many more have had numerous disturbing episodes on these drugs. Quaking hands, nervous ticks, loss of libido, thoughts of suicide and uncharacteristic violent outbursts are just a few 'side effects' of the many drugs out there.

The likes of Merck et al cannot even say how these drugs work specifically in the brain but it can be clearly shown how the sales of same affect their bottom lines. We have survived modern life just fine without these chemical concoctions for many decades. Why should we submit ourselves to these unknowns now. It is a crap shoot and the cost is losing our friends and family's sanity.

/rant with apologies. It is a sore subject for me.

I offer my best wishes to our doped Captain and wish him a speedy trip back to normalcy and the left seat - perferably sans-ADs.

[QDMQDMQDM]

This is a good example of the profitable doping of otherwise normal healthy people, sanctioned by well-meaning but ill-informed doctors gone terribly wrong. These over-medicated folks may need only a few changes in life, spiritural guidance or perhaps just some time to heal emotionally.


Look, this is utter garbage, as is the rest of your post and you clearly know nothing whatsoever about mental health.

Anyway, that aside, the important issue here is how this chap was cleared for flying in such a state. I am surprised that he was allowed to keep his Class 1 while on antidepressants.

QDM

[vapilot2004]

Look, this is utter garbage, as is the rest of your post and you clearly know nothing whatsoever about mental health.
QDM

You are quite correct, QDM3X, I am not a mental health professional but I can count two degreed members of that profession in my extended family and two more as close friends with all but one in agreement with me.

In study after study, a majority of anti-depressant patients reported familial, social and workplace relationships that suffered from the drugs effects on them. Those that chose counseling and lifestyle changes over drugs were more likely to have fewer problems in recovery and had a better chance at long-term un-medicated happiness.

As to my last point about the understanding of how these drugs operate on the human brain, please, do some research and you will find that the drug manufacturers and scientists do not know precisely how these chemicals interact with our brains. Tis a mystery.

Due to my own obfuscations, my original point may have not been clear and I apologise. I was merely trying say that alternate methods of dealing with depression should be seriously discussed before rolling the dice on these easy-out MAOI, SSRI and even the new generation 'mental miracle' drugs.

I would be happy to entertain your thoughts in a different thread or by PM. Thread option would surely be more entertaining. :8

Again, I do apologise for my stand on this subject.

[Nov71]

1. You don't treat acute anxiety (panic) attacks with O2 but by re-breathing CO2 from a paper bag, but CC at 35K ft are not medics
2. Some ADs can be used for low mood & life changing events eg close personal loss, but if for chronic clinical depression IMO the guy should be excused flying until passed fit for duty by a qualified medic (not me)

[remoak]

I'm not at all sure that "acute anxiety attack" properly describes what happened to this guy - more a confluence of several factors that peaked at the same time.

I'm also not sure that automatically grounding someone with his symptoms is a smart move, as all you are doing is multiplying the stress by ten. Good monitoring and careful self-regulation are surely a better method. In this case, the pilot appears to have recognised the onset of a problem and acted to remove himself from the equation - seems a professional approach to me (although with hindsight, he probably shouldn't have reported for duty - hindsight being the wonderful thing that it is...

[FakePilot]

These over-medicated folks may need only a few changes in life, spiritural guidance or perhaps just some time to heal emotionally.


I think what you're trying to convey is that drugs are sometimes used when not necessary. I'd believe that. Good doctors try the things you've suggested, and then resort to drugs. Even then, they still try to incorporate life style changes. But sometimes the medicines are necessary.

[priapism]

Wouldn't be a scientologist would we vapilot2004? You sound just like that other famous pilot Tom Cruise and spout forth the samev scientologist line towards any medication involving mental health.

I have seen anti depressants work with very good results. There are underlying pathophysiologcal reasons for their use. You obviously are aware of afflicted pilot's complete medical history to have been able to make such comments.

And yes I am a health professional and one who deals with the mentally ill, including acutely depressed patients on a regular basis.

[172driver]

Now just imagine this same scenario on board an SAA a/c with one of those new Multi-Crew licenced pilots in the RHS :eek:

Details here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=244114

[Re-Heat]

In study after study, a majority of anti-depressant patients reported familial, social and workplace relationships that suffered from the drugs effects on them. Those that chose counseling and lifestyle changes over drugs were more likely to have fewer problems in recovery and had a better chance at long-term un-medicated happiness.

Are you Tom Cruise? Fool.

[crew the screw]

Hind sight 20/20

For me the issues are
1) The guy was flying the aircraft (Incharge at least) Yes he could have not reported, been on different drugs or visiting a 'happy camp'
2) He identified the situation he was in, told the F/o and CCm took himself to the back and dealt with it.
3) As for his return to the FD... I think it was sensationalised a wee bit when he was restrained etc, He was probably locked into his straps and moved back in the rails slightly. So now we have an experienced guy back in the loop, Nobody knows here what his state was. Maybe feeling Hunkey Dorey?(in good health, well as good as when he reported.)

IMveryHO.. Flight deck and Cabin proceedures worked here. Maybe not all the others like type of medical treatment, Self restrain in not reporting.

Hooray for SOPs and I wish the captain a speedy recovery, and hope the F/o enjoyed the single pilot ride home (come on we've all wished to have a go at one time?)

Posted from a Flight deck point of view not meant to deal with the medicine issue

Crew

[rmac]

One of my colleagues, in a senior management position, and a highly stressfull job, was suffering from depression last year. He was put on medication, and appeared to recover, although missing his zest for life, and his formerly high energy levels.

The general thought was that he could be counselled and assisted back to full health.

We recently tasked him to lead a team on a performance audit in West Africa. En-route he went home to visit his family in Jo'Burg and while there retired to the wine cellar, drank a half bottle of his finest...and shot himself !

At least he wasn't flying a 767 at the time.

[vapilot2004]

Are you Tom Cruise? Fool.

My true identity has been revealed. And no I am not gay. :}

[vapilot2004]

Wouldn't be a scientologist would we vapilot2004?

Nah. But I have heard of the stuff. Sounds interesting.:}

I have seen anti depressants work with very good results.

Point taken, my good Dr. P. I have no doubt that many are helped by you and the drugs you prescribed and you are the expert, not I.:ok:

But let me ask you this: Have you ever observed unfavourable results with any of your patients ? Any suicides (attempts or successes) or uncharacteristic violent episodes among them?

I have read at least a half dozen very telling university research papers (surprisingly not funded by the drug companies) regarding the bad side and other unknowns regarding these classes of drugs. Can I have a few copies sent your way?

[Anotherflapoperator]

One of my colleagues, in a senior management position, and a highly stressfull job, was suffering from depression last year. He was put on medication, and appeared to recover, although missing his zest for life, and his formerly high energy levels.

The general thought was that he could be counselled and assisted back to full health.

We recently tasked him to lead a team on a performance audit in West Africa. En-route he went home to visit his family in Jo'Burg and while there retired to the wine cellar, drank a half bottle of his finest...and shot himself !

At least he wasn't flying a 767 at the time.

His family wouldn't have another bottle of that stuff to send to Willie Walsh would they?

[Captain Sensible]

Can't, musn't hold Class 1 Medical and fly whilst on anti-depressants, no way, period end of story. One is ill, like any other illness, one goes away for a few months, gets fixed, regains the Medical and continues flying.

[rmac]

Apparently not Captain S. We were pretty sure that our colleague was "fixed", before he shot himself.

Just from that short and personal exposure with its nasty ending, despite all the help and apparent return to health, as well as contact with a former military colleague, who confirms that he also cracked under highly stressful military ops some 15 years ago, it would appear that the whole business is highly unpredictable.

My vote....psychological illness + pills = never, ever fly another transport aircraft again.

[Taildragger67]

From the ATSB report:

The CASA approach is in line with that recommended by the Aerospace Medical Association (AsMA). For example, a 2004 AsMA position paper on Aeromedical Regulation of Aviators Using Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors for Depressive Disorders proposes that an aeromedical protocol be adopted by aviation certificatory and regulatory authorities to remove absolute prohibitions against pilots flying while taking SSRIs. The reasons that AsMA gave for this proposal included evidence that:

• professional pilots may refuse SSRI medication and continue to fly without undergoing treatment appropriate for their medical condition in order to avoid being grounded
• a significant number of US professional pilots take SSRI medication while continuing to fly without informing the US Federal Aviation Administration
• the use of SSRIs has little or no detrimental effect in automobile, bus, and truck drivers.

In 2005, CASA undertook a retrospective case-control study in order to evaluate the safety of the policy of certifying aircrew and air traffic controllers based on meeting set criteria while using antidepressants. The study matched data collected by CASA medical staff from 1993 to 2004 with de-identified data for aviation accidents and incidents collected by the Australian Transport Safety Bureau for the same period.

The report of the validation study, Antidepressant usage and civilian aviation activity in Australia 1993-2004: An assessment of policy for the management of aircrew and air traffic controllers taking antidepressant medication, was released by CASA in September 2005. The report concluded that current CASA policy was appropriate and that there were no safety concerns relating to the practice.

(Bold emphasis added)

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2005/AAIR/pdf/aair200503921_001.pdf

If I might advance a theory – one suspects that the ATSB is wary of the following scenario:
pilot feeling a bit down, goes to the doc and has a chat; doc then says “here, take these pills” – pilot says “thanks but no thanks, that’ll get me grounded, and under doctor-patient privilege you’re not to say anything about this to anyone”. Pilot then gets behind the wheel and decides some time later that it’s all of no use and it’s time to end it all; just happens to have a few hundred souls strapped in behind him/her at the time. Or, they blank out somehow = similar outcome.

Instead, the idea is to get them to come forward, have the condition known about, monitored and managed. Hence less risk of a downward spiral (figurative and literal). This guy did just that.

IMHO, VAPilot is simply stating modern medical practice (no, I’m not a doc, but have several good friends who are who tell me this) – don’t just manage the symptoms, manage the disease – ie. the causes. For example, if a smoker has a hacking cough, that can be masked by various preparations; but a better long-term outcome might be achieved by the patient stopping smoking…

[picu]

I'm not sure how precise the newspaper report quoted is (they seldom are), but if the incident happened "soon after take off" from Auckland, why didn't the F/O turn the aircraft back to Auckland?
A pilot incapacitation can become a serious issue - effectively, like an engine failure on a 2 engine aircraft, if the second one goes, you're f*****

The above is obviously mentioned without any knowledge of weather conditions on the day in Auckland etc........just a thought.

[Taildragger67]

Picu,

I think the news report may be a little off. From the ATSB report:

At the top of climb after departure from Auckland, the PIC advised the copilot that he intended to cease duty in Melbourne due to his concerns about possible sinus problems and a slight feeling of being unwell. At that time he felt he was able to function normally as a member of the flight crew. Subsequently, the PIC’s condition deteriorated and he was relieved of duty.

During cruise, the PIC felt increasingly fatigued. He left the flight deck to use the adjacent toilet, and subsequently sought assistance from cabin crew members who were in the forward galley at the time. He felt shaky and nauseous, and had pain in the back of his head and neck. A member of the cabin crew administered oxygen and the PIC was assessed as unfit for duty. (Bold emphasis added)

From this, it appears the news report's use of 'shortly' is a bit loose. The incapacitation seems to have happened out over the Tasman.

There has also been some discussion over the PIC's restraints; might one suggest that he was set up such that if he blacked out, he would not inadvertently fall onto, or prevent use of, a control.

Report is here (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2005/AAIR/pdf/aair200503921_001.pdf)

[howflytrg]

This is indeed a sad case and one which is sadly becoming seen more often in recent years. I wish the QF commander a speedy return to a fit state to continue doing his job.
However on the subject of incapacitation we must all be responsible for our own well being and have the courage to stand up and say that we are unfit for duty. Moreover I find it interesting to read the company crew health precautions when the subject of Malaria is mentioned. I have my usual dose of Malarone whislt operationg in West Africa. However on one occasion I have had to divert to to the side effects of these drugs on a crew member. More suprisingly when a crew member is found to suffer from side effects of Malarone they often resort to taking Mefloquine. This anti-malarial was at one point banned by the UK CAA but has now been reinstated as an approved anti-malarial! I do hope i won't be in a position of seeing another crew member in such a state as before due to the required medication having to be taken. That said i'm sure we would all prefer a bit of dizziness of nausea ( down route NOT whilst operating) than contracting Malaria itself!

God speed and good health to you all.

[Nige321]

This is a good example of the profitable doping of otherwise normal healthy people, sanctioned by well-meaning but ill-informed doctors gone terribly wrong. These over-medicated folks may need only a few changes in life, spiritural guidance or perhaps just some time to heal emotionally.

Sorry, but I'm with vapilot on this one...
A few years ago I was feeling low (3 years without a full nights sleep - a kid waking up every night)
The doc prescribed 'something to lift you up a bit'... I'm still on them now, and having very slow progress getting off them. I should never have had them in the first place.
I had an interesting converstaion with a phsyciatric professional... She said that 5% of cases are beyond help, 5% are helped with drugs and the other 90% are, like me, suffering from 'life in general'. The 90% take all of their time, and are the group they simply don't know how to help. She also said that the incidence of depression/anxiety is increasing at a huge rate.
N:(

[Defenestrator]

1. You don't treat acute anxiety (panic) attacks with O2 but by re-breathing CO2 from a paper bag, but CC at 35K ft are not medics

Actually Nov71 it is now widely regarded that the correct action to take with somebody suffering an anxiety attack or hyperventilating is to administer oxygen. I appreciate your thoughts on the 'ol paper bag routine but it would appear that the theory has become outdated. Least thats what they told us on my last MedAire course.

D :ok:

[QDMQDMQDM]

Well, paper bag rebreathing may not be recommended, but if the diagnosis is certain -- and most medics can spot a hyperventilator easily -- then it is damned effective.

[Nov71]

D. I am awaiting clarification from MedAire but from a Physiology and blood chemistry point of view, IMO oxygen is not the correct treatment for hyperventilation. I am not a Medic, but the following extract may help...

The most important thing to understand about hyperventilation is that although it can feel as if you don't have enough oxygen, the opposite is true. It is a symptom of too much oxygen.

With hyperventilation, your body has too much oxygen. To use this oxygen (to extract it from your blood), your body needs a certain amount of Carbon Dioxide (CO2).

When you hyperventilate, you do not give your body long enough to retain CO2, and so your body cannot use the oxygen you have. This causes you to feel as if you are short of air, when actually you have too much. This is why the following techniques work to get rid of hyperventilation.
Getting Rid of Hyperventilation
Anybody who hyperventilates will find that symptoms of over-excitedness or panic will occur. So how can we learn to breathe more evenly and naturally?

1. Hold your breath. Holding your breath for as long as you comfortably can will prevent the dissipation of carbon dioxide. If you hold your breath for a period of between 10 and 15 seconds and repeat this a few times that will be sufficient to calm hyperventilation quickly.

2. Breathe in and out of a paper bag. This will cause you to re-inhale the carbon dioxide that you exhaled. Naturally there are many times when this would be inappropriate and may appear a little strange. It really helps though.

I will leave the science for now unless any medic can give me the rationale for giving oxygen to a hyperventilating patient!

See also Hyperventilation in Wikipedia

[RoyHudd]

Well done the FO. (Seems to be over-looked here).

It cannot have been too easy for him/her, dealing with the medical emergency of this nature, and at the same time safely managing all aspects of the flight. Of course, we are trained for this in the sim, and easy it is. But in reality, the FO probably did a fine job. And, I daresay, the involved members of the cabin crew too.:D

[priapism]

I may be able to help here and I will keep it simple and layman's terms as much as possible.

Hypervention , in the case of an anxiety attack, causes carbon dioxide ( co2)levels to fall as cO2 is blown off at a faster than the normal rate. The body's
natural response to falling co2 levels is to make oxygen bind to haemoglobin and not dissociate as freely from it as normal . As a result , in an anxiety attack , although the victim's respiartion rate is way above normal , at a cellular level the tissue is actually hypoxic because the oxygen it needs is still bound to haemoglobin. This is what causes the numbness and tingling to the extremeties and dizziness that so many hyperventilaters experience. If the resiration rate is not controlled theywill eventually lose consciosness, which is not such a bad thing as respiration returns to normal allowing co2 levels to correct.

In terms of treatment , the absolute best thing you can do is get the patient to make a conscious effort to slow down their breathing rate. I find that you have to be reassuring but assertive when doing this. It can quite a while for the effects of hyperventilation to go but, from experience , as the symptoms start to ease , the easier it is to get them to correct and slow down their breathing.

With regard to giving oxygen as against breathing into a paper bag there is good reason in favour of the former. Unfortunately , there are many causes of an increased respiration rate - the big one being starvation of the heart muscle due to an episode of angina or infarct ( heart attack) . In some episodes of angina or even heart attacks the only presenting symptom may be shortness of breath , numbness or tingling down one or both arms -all symptoms which can be experienced during a painc attack. The last thing people suffering from a cardiac related shortness of breath/over ventilation is to increase carbon dioxide levels by breathing into a paper bag- what they need is oxygen . A misdiagnosis of the cause of hyperventilation can prove detrimental shouldthe old bag technique be employed. If the cause of the hyperventilation is purely anxiety then giving oxygen will do the patient no harm.

So , in the absence of a cardiac monitor and blood gas analysis - reassurance and oxygen are the most appropriate treatment.

[FlyGooseFly!]

This is a good example of the profitable doping of otherwise normal healthy people, sanctioned by well-meaning but ill-informed doctors gone terribly wrong.

I offer my best wishes to our doped Captain and wish him a speedy trip back to normalcy and the left seat - perferably sans-ADs.

I have only flown a helicopter for a few hours of fun; however, I've taken an amazing array of drugs for some sort of arthritic bone disease that manifests itself in sudden and quite frightening pain and almost paralysis. After the first attack it took more than a year for me to work or stand well enough to convince anybody I could - on those drugs.

The doctors who prescribe them have never taken them of course and will merrily experiment with you willy-nilly. I began to halucinate - it took a while for me to realise - they were that good and at intervals felt very melancholic but looked quite hearty and got a job. Sometimes driving to work I'd burst into tears just listening to music on the radio.

I contacted the drug companies ( as I was on a concoction at the time ) and though they wouldn't talk specifics expressed great concern that I was taking that mixture so I went to a different doctor who was horrified.

Yet the only warning says "may cause drowsiness in some people - if affected do not operate machinery" but that's also on packets of Asprins so no one takes it seriously.

[Ron Jeremy Porn Star]

Another so-called normal person who made it through the arduous QF psych testing process. How many more anxious QF pilots are there out there waiting to drop their marbles....

[Nippy]

I don't feel comfortable about the pilot of my a/c being on SSRI's I just did a quick google on the subject and found this:

"Most people have either minor, or no, side-effects. Possible side-effects vary between different preparations. The most common ones include: diarrhoea, feeling sick, vomiting, and headaches. Some people develop a feeling of restlessness or anxiety (see below). Sexual problems sometimes occur. It is worth keeping on with treatment if side-effects are mild at first. Minor side-effects may wear off after a week or so.

The leaflet that comes in the drug packet gives a full list of possible side-effects. Tell your doctor if a side-effect persists or is troublesome. A switch to a different drug may then suit you better. Drowsiness is an uncommon side-effect with SSRI antidepressants, but do not drive or operate machinery if you become drowsy whilst taking one"

The last sentance says it all I think. Im no doctor but............

Nippy

[DickyPearse]

Another so-called normal person who made it through the arduous QF psych testing process. How many more anxious QF pilots are there out there waiting to drop their marbles....


Looks like your probabtionary status won't be extended into full membership RJPS. Get a life........

[ABX]

VAPilot et al should not be dismissed as cranks, I have personally known two people who went on prescribed medication for depression etc, and the effects of the meds were far worse than the condition. One man committed suicide, and the other took three extra years to get free from the drugs, which were prescribed for only a "mild condition" and caused side effects such as a lack of spatial awareness (there goes driving and flying etc) drowsiness, and irrational aggravation.

The drugs are not always what they are cracked up to be.

Cheers,

ABX

[Mac the Knife]

We most of us feel depressed from time to time - this is not an illness and is best treated by a change or a holiday or whatnot. Antidepressants are neither indicated or effective.

A depressive illness is something completely different. Major depression is very hard to treat - it doesn't respond to going running or a night out with the lads as some have suggested. It often ends in suicide or drug addiction (usually both). Antidepressants work moderately well for a significant number of patients and very well for a minority. Some patients do not respond or do badly with certain classes of drugs. Nobody "cracks them up" to be a magical answer, not even the drug companies.

vapilot would withhold antidepressants even from those patients whose lives have been made productive and liveable again. One trusts that he will consequently be prepared to chip in and help the widows and orphans caused by his diktat.

:*

[keithl]

AIRWAY - Why should you be missing something? Seems extraordinarily sensible to me. Capt sick - don't know why - fumes? food? - if no-one with copilot who will notice if he too collapses?

Maybe that's why no-one else has bothered to reply, it seems so obvious...

[AIRWAY]

Hi Keithl,

I bow in shame... :{

Something so simple.

Apologies for my post, maybe it is the "ashes" effect kicking in... Not sleeping, then not being able to function... :ouch: :zzz:

I Need a redbull.

Anyway once again my apologies. :(

PS - I have removed my original post.

[hoggsnortrupert]

We have in todays world, more compliance, more stress, management arguing with workers over the meaning of Duty time, travel time etc etc.
I read on an earlier thread some months ago that a Doctor agreed that due to the above, and the need for companies to make a profit, then the take them young and burn them out philosophy is an acceptable accounting practice, make room for the next up and coming, is okay.
Now forgive me if I have in anyway left anything out here, but we have HF, & CRM, for the aircrew, but not for maintainance, nor management, nor the bean counters, and nor the quacks, and then you wonder why the chap gets anxious???.
Hands up those that have never felt anxious, or have never questioned themselves in flight at sometime in their career????
Something is wrong here.
It is a part of the present industry that sucks.
I reckon we were better off in days gone by, of not too recent, when the crew would go out together, have a good time, and yes in all likelyhood have a few drinks that perhaps they shouldn't have, shit it was fun, got our selves into all sorts of FUN didn't we now? not allowed to have fun any more are we.
So where do you, how do you relax after a grueling schedule, 14 hours on the ground in a hotel some place, can't get to sleep,can't go down to the bar, shit you can't even trust the hotels to bring you room service to your room, or use the mini bar, as they may inform the company.
How many tubes of Ali got bent, or pax killed due to a happy questionably safe crew????
To the fellow concerned, matey all the very best.
The industry is F:mad: .
Bring it on.
H/Snort