Cathay career progression and upgrade policy.

[DC5150]

Hello gents,

I've been following the threads regarding CX progression and upgrades for some time now and I was hoping someone in the know could clear up some confusion. Before I post my questions let me say I have not started this thread to discuss CX checking and training as this has been covered thoroughly and 'passionately' in recent threads. However, if C&T becomes relevant then so be it.

Looking at the pax progression:

SO -> JFO -> FO -> SFO -> Captain -> Senior Captain

Other than as a new hire SO, is it ever required to move to HK to hold any position? I've read conflicting information on this.

Does Cathay have an official or unofficial up-or-out policy?

Is career progression mandated as seniority allows?

Does each one of these steps constitute an 'upgrade' and require an assessment?

What is a Relief Captain and when are you eligible for this step?

Some previous posts have talked about upgrades on their 4th try and their 'jobs is on the line' yet another post talks about the 12 or so CAT D pilots that are around but will never upgrade. This seems contradictory. Can anyone explain?

Thanks

[Numero Crunchero]

Will try to answer some of your many questions.

SO's live in HKG...you can now join as DEFO or Freighter FO if you have the experience and so could, theoretically, never live in HKG during your career(depending on what type you are on and basings availability). Basings are allocated on rank and then DoJ. So if you got a base as an FO great...you can stay on it until your seniority would get you a command basing. But if you are from NA it gets complicated as there are currently no right to left upgrades on pax fleet 744...but I think there is on freigher 744?

Complicated huh...simple answer to a complicated issue...you could probably spend almost your entire CX career not living in HKG.

Unofficially...you have to take the SO to FO upgrade(can't think why you wouldn't want to). They don't like it when FOs refuse command but it has happened many times (due kids schooling in home country etc).

Relief commander=relief FO...about 12-18months after you are upgraded to FO(assuming no failed upgrade!). On ULR 4 man crew, the RC sits with the SO for his shift. Captain and other FO do takeoff/landing. RC gives a great lifestyle but sucks as a job...you hardly ever do takeoffs/landings.

Career progression is based on DoJ AND assessment. So if you were delayed becoming an FO for some reason, that does not penalise you in your race to be upgraded to CN.

Usually when guys/gals are talking about their 4th go they are talking about upgrade from JFO to full FO. I haven't heard of anyone ever getting 4 shots at command...I think there has been the occasional 3rd go...not sure. Once you are assessed by a command review board, you are made Cat A or B...B means "naughty boy politically, or we don't think you are ready" so you do more time as an FO. Cat A means ready to give the course a go. If you fail command course you get made Cat C. If you fail again they usually make you cat D. Cat C means you will get another go in a year or three...cat D means never!

Clear as mud?

[Five Green]

Yes there are checks every where !! SO to JFO requires GND school sim and line training then a line check to pass and become a full FO (at full FO wage) . It is more dangerous than command as you will be asked to leave if you do not make the grade. You can fail the line check up to four times. Although this varies as some have been let go before then. This does not happen very often (as compared to Command failures) but when JFOs say their job is on the line it really is.

Howwever when you take command course you can be Cat D'd and stay on as an FO. Although that is subjective as if they do not like you, you will also be asked to leave.

There is also a line check and course to become a relief FO. As a regular FO you can be by yourself in the cockpit. As a relief you can be "in charge" while the Captain takes his rest (long haul)

You can also have said promotions taken away, as a result of a bad line check or in extreme cases a bad sim or line flight. Even heard of guys being demoted after crewing up (being called out to act as PNF for someone else's sim) !! Then you get a "heavy check" or management check ride and if you make the cut you can go back into the shadows. If not you are in the spotlight and eventually kicking your lunch box down the road. So don't screw up !

We have a seniority list but currently you can upgrade on the classic immediately (Direct entry) on the 400 Freighter within a few years and on the pax fleet after 9 or so years. The management does have the right to hold you back without any particular reason (could be political or training history related)

So there you have it.

[Mink]

So if you interview and get hired under the DEFO (as opposed to DESO) program, are you working as a JFO and then have to upgrade to FO at some point? Or are you FO right off the bat? Just trying to figure out WTF this JFO is all about.:hmm: Thx.

[Thunderbird4]

This topic can only be understood by quoting Donald Rumsfeld:

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

[sizematters]

or when asked if they knew the whereabouts of Osama Bin Laden replied

yes we do, he is either in Afghanistan, Dead, or some other country !!!


(can't beat logic, now can ya ??)

[Mach75]

Can anyone speculate on how the new pax DEFO's will affect base availability (especially NA) down the road for new hires wanting to take a base in the future?

[Thunderbird4]

To put it simply.....NO.

[Five Green]

Can anyone speculate on how the new pax DEFO's will affect base availability (especially NA) down the road for new hires wanting to take a base in the future?


If you join as an SO then you need to be prepared to spend 6+ years in Hong Kong. If the company expands in N. America (and it does plan to) then there will be alot of base slots in the next 4-5 years. They will fill them with current FOs and DEFOs. As long as there is expansiion senior FOs will be returning to Hong Kong for commands thus opening an FO slot iin N. America. The number who do is impossible to guess as it is dependant on upgrade policy, future command basing slots, rosters in Hong Kong, and the aircraft that they deploy in N. America. As alot of the bases will switch to 777s then there will be overlap with the Hong Kong regional rosters so that may also affect whether Fos go for command in Hong Kong or wait to hold N. American command or stay on the remaining 400 bases !

There you go ! One thing about life at CX is that you have lots of choices !!!

FG

[Veruka Salt]

Hi Mink,

If you're hired as a DEFO, you are a full FO (not a JFO) right off the bat.

Rgds,

VS.

[Mink]

Thanks VS.:ok: