MANSTON- 3 [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

blazing_air

12th Nov 2006, 23:52

I'll answer my own post!
I've done some calculations on traffic between November 1st and 11th, as an outsider.
In the 11 days there have been 8 loaded MK flights and one positioning arriving. Of the 9 flights out, one was full to Lagos, and 5 of the others - to Ostend and Luxembourg - carried part-loads. A big increase in traffic.
In the same period there have been 4 EgyptAir turnrounds, some of which uplifted cargo.
There have been 2 ad hoc charters.
My estimate is that freight handled so far this month is 1,100 tons.

Jes you are correct, in that, mse is very busy at the moment with freight traffic and not just an increase seasonal stats.
The biggest increase is in the outbound loads by MK and Egypt, I wouldnt disagree with your figures, but won't be confirmed till the end of the month as usual.
Along with this increase, more staff have and are continuing to be employed to cope with this extra demand.
I have also heard that a 5 year business plan has been produced with great expectations for 2007.
Watch this space....:ok:

eu01

13th Nov 2006, 06:53

The airport owner Infratil has just posted its half-year net profit ($11.8 million).
There you have something about Manston as well.
Revenue from ordinary activities rose 143 per cent to $285.99m, with the increase primarily a result of acquisitions.
Those included Kent Airport (England) in August 2005, Stagecoach NZ in November 2005, and Lubeck Airport (Germany) in December 2005.
Infratil said satisfactory results were achieved at each of Infratil's major investments in the six months to the end of September.
Depreciation at Infratil Airports Europe (IAE) had resulted in an accounting loss to Infratil of $6m, in line with budget. A year ago IAE contributed $2m.
IAE continued to pursue a long-term approach to building value, Infratil said.
While the group result was in line with expectations, aspects of performance had been mixed across the three European airports.
New customers for Lubeck had been elusive, while airfreight at Kent had outstripped forecasts and freight has also rebounded at Glasgow.
But Glasgow's passenger numbers had been flat due to Ryanair's fleet management and route planning.
"The reassuring feature of the mixed performance of the European airports is that the issues are well-understood, the management team is well resourced with excellent and experienced people, and the potential rewards remain attractive," Infratil said.

undiemole

13th Nov 2006, 09:21

Along with this increase, more staff have and are continuing to be employed to cope with this extra demand

Really :confused: have they been employed full time or just on a come in when its busy, which is how it is at present with a small team on full time.

blazing_air

13th Nov 2006, 10:43

undiemole

Undiemole, you obviously know the answer to this question as you seem to know the present situation.
More staff have been taken on full time and more are being interviewed over the coming weeks.
Yes as you probably know part time staff are being used to cover this busy period, but more staff are on the cards.
The statement was made as a fact not to champion the airport, or to start a thread on staffing issue's.

Manston Airport

13th Nov 2006, 15:08

In order to present MSE traffic accurately in November/December, people should remember there is always a substantial seasonal boost in freight traffic in the run up to Christmas.

Im sure that this has nothing to do with Xmas as that all comes in by containing ships might be wrong.

James

EGMH

13th Nov 2006, 15:14

James

The reason for the increase is on Infratil's website.

This strong growth is due in part to the European winter approaching, with increased volumes of fresh produce being imported from Africa.

berrs003

13th Nov 2006, 15:43

Jes you are correct, in that, mse is very busy at the moment with freight traffic and not just an increase seasonal stats.
The biggest increase is in the outbound loads by MK and Egypt, I wouldnt disagree with your figures, but won't be confirmed till the end of the month as usual.
Along with this increase, more staff have and are continuing to be employed to cope with this extra demand.
I have also heard that a 5 year business plan has been produced with great expectations for 2007.
Watch this space....:ok:

you say freat expectations for 2007, would this include new passenger services that have yet to be announced?

Freight on the whole is up but is passenger traffic justifying itself. could more staff be in for passenger services?

Jes

13th Nov 2006, 18:10

berrs003
You keep trying to get someone on this forum to tell you about passenger services, as well as in your alter ego of EUJET on another forum.
Your fishing might be better received if you were to tell us what you know.

berrs003

13th Nov 2006, 20:51

what is wrong wit hpeople on this forum. i am not saying a iknow something just the fact that rumour fly around.
You are all deafeatists. its like you dont want to talk about the topic :sad:

undiemole

14th Nov 2006, 07:29

Will the additional full time staff be kept on after the pre xmas rush :confused:

or is it back to situation normal....on a wing and a prayer.

Jes

14th Nov 2006, 08:03

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not buying my Xmas fruit and veg this week. This is real growth.
.
2 MK 747s in today.

Manston Airport

14th Nov 2006, 12:39

James

The reason for the increase is on Infratil's website.

Ok cool cheers.Where abouts on the website do you look for this info I just looked and could not find it.

James

EGMH

14th Nov 2006, 13:09

Jes
Indeed 2 MK 747's bringing cargo and 1 departing with a load to DNMM.
Oasis-Hong Kong Airlines 744 training today too.

James
On infratil's site, go to Announcements and look for Infratil Airports Europe reports.

deedave

19th Nov 2006, 13:55

Local rag reports difficulty in signing section 106 agreement with council.

This due to Infratil "failure to submit expansion plans" !!

Meanwhile, shareholder bulletin board reports expectations that IFT will take on a partner to develop "non-flying" assets at Manston.

catflaps

19th Nov 2006, 19:22

Deedave has posted some factual matter, i.e. that the local press is reporting difficulties between the Council and the airport owners in agreeing what operating restrictions should be in place. He is also reporting a rumour (this is a rumour network isn't it?) that Infratil are going to begin developing parts of the airfield for non-aviation-related use. I really don't see why you should be so exercised by this.

Those of us who live near the airfield can see how run-down and dialpidated it is. We can see precious little evidence of the millions of pounds of investment that is talked about, and we can see few flights. Most people I speak to now believe that the EUjet saga was the penultimate chapter in Manston's (previously distinguished) history. The final chapter involves converting the runway into a dual carriageway, to link Ramsgate to the Thanet Way, and carving up the rest of the site for a mixed commercial/residential development.

There are lots of people out there who thought it could have worked; possibly the same people who thought the Millenium Dome would be a success. In business, good ideas often founder on the rock of practicality. If it weren't so, we'd all be very rich by investing in sure-fire winners. Sadly there's no such thing, and it's disingenuous to pretend that Manston is bound to succeed.

Evileyes

19th Nov 2006, 22:43

Several recent posts have been moved to Spotters forum and may be found here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=213067&highlight=Manston

EUAir

21st Nov 2006, 10:17

Catflaps- they need to change Manston into a Casino, like they are doing at the Dome! Must be some native Thanitonians, who like the Native Americans, could get something back from the Government by opening a Casino!:)

MDIS

21st Nov 2006, 19:23

XL 737 with new livery at MSE today with crew posing for photos and video.

Exciting announcement due at Manston or just a photo shoot for XL?:hmm:

MDIS

deedave

22nd Nov 2006, 09:52

The casino idea is reasonable, but I still think the place would make a great movie studio.

XL chose a good spot to make their video.

The noise at a proper airport would make such a project difficult, but with only one or two turnarounds a day at MSE it is blissfully quiet.

The artist William Turner said Thanet had the best skies in Europe, and think of the great remake potential !!! - "Reach for the Skies", "Dambusters", "The way to the Stars", and a great runway for the final scene in "Casablanca".

Manston Airport

22nd Nov 2006, 17:23

Or how about getting the right airline in to do the job:ok: no casino and no movie studio :=

James

Herne Bay

25th Nov 2006, 12:05

I passed the Airport a few days ago, and noticed a lot of work has been done, a new radar system, a man also told me the whole place has been rewired all the runways and taxiways.
The owners are investing in the infrasture and I understand trying to make the most of the site by renting out spare land for non aircraft use, that's the way to make money.
With flights next year to the USA and cargo at record levels Things have never looked so good for KIA

catflaps

25th Nov 2006, 12:27

Somebody's been eating hallucinogenic mushrooms again. You can find them growing on disused airfields.

HZ123

25th Nov 2006, 13:30

As a Southend (SEN) pessimist it is good to view at least someone in tune with what is more likely to happen viz catflaps. KIA is fn terminal decline, there is any amount of room at LGW / STN for cargo without carting it by road around the Uk to Kent. A further point is that very shortly large wedges of tax will be placed on aviation fuel and surcharges on tickets to combat the environmental lobby, whether this does anything postive is another matter. it will however, slow the market for loco down. SEN like KIA is always the subject of rumours that predict it providing a Euro bridge for the 2012 fiasco in east London, at least it does a reasonable amount of engineering and that is KIA.s only hope for the future particularly if you consider Cambridge airfield closure and relocation. But alas even this outlet may be to late.

Andy_S

25th Nov 2006, 13:54

cargo at record levels

Sorry, but this is not true. Please check your facts.

billygoat

25th Nov 2006, 20:34

Been away for a while, but nice to get back to a place that is busier than when I left. For anyone to state that Manston is not in a steady business growth in all areas is simply incorrect.
Billy

SWBKCB

26th Nov 2006, 07:49

As well as SEN, I think KIA is in a similar position to Teesside/Durham Tees Valley. They've both been bought by large 'infrastructure' companies who have either forgotten the old adage "How do you make a small fortune in aviation? Start with a large one..." or are they going to try their best for a couple of years and then turn round and say we can't make any money out of aviation, Mr Local Authority, perhaps we should use all this land for something else?? :E

or am I just too cynical?

ps - not in the same league, but add Carlisle to the 'ones to watch' list as well...

Jes

26th Nov 2006, 09:00

Desperate to find something else with which to knock Southend and Durham TV, their denigrators have turned on dear old Manston.
.
I suggest that there are differences. 2005 figures for freight tonnage handled were
.
Southend 53
Durham TV 363
.
The present freight figures for Manston, if (justifiably) extrapolated, are showing an annual tonnage of ca. 40,000, making it no 6 in the UK league table; this will soon rise to ca. 50,000.
.
I ask you not to attack this assertion: just wait, watch and learn!

SWBKCB

26th Nov 2006, 09:21

Of course there are differences, it's the similarities I'm pointing out - newish owners who haven't yet come there with the development plans they put forward initially, and plenty of scope for non-aviation development (also both been burnt by loco operators).

There is no reason why any non-aviation development can't go hand in hand with the development of thriving, sustainable regional airports (look what Peel have done at Liverpool), but the juries still out at both Manston and DTVA.

As always, we'll need to wait and see...

eu01

26th Nov 2006, 18:27

perhaps we should use all this land for something else?? :E

or am I just too cynical?
Let me just refer to some data.

Shannon Town, Ireland; Population 8,561
Entire County Clare Area (3,147 km²); Population 110,800

Ramsgate, England; Population 37,967
Enire Kent County Area (3,736 km²); Population 1,621,000

Shannon Airport has been a base for Ryanair since 2001 (more or less successful).
I have no idea if Kent International Airport will ever be a base for them (or anybody else). But if it won't, please don't blame the catchment area for that. The Kent County has in fact over a third the population if compared to entire Ireland. Not counting London to the mentioned catchment area at all. But even if London is too far away to contribute significantly, to some extent it certainly would. That's why I do not understand such a pessimism at all.

SWBKCB

26th Nov 2006, 19:01

I'm obviously I'm not making myself clear - the scenario I'm thinking of has nothing to do with current throughput, catchment area, etc, etc

My concerns are as follows - major multi-national company picks up rights to local airport due to either previously under performing local authority/private operator and then half-heartedly chucks a few quid at it in the hope of turning it round - if it doesn't, then turns to planning authority and says 'We tried our best to run a local airport but failed, can we now use this nice bit of land we've got rights to dirt cheap for housing/retail/business use/new Corporate HQ and make a fortune that way instead'...

Jes

26th Nov 2006, 20:03

If that's the case, SWBKCB, you don't need to trouble yourself anymore with Manston, as everything about Infratil is wholehearted.

SWBKCB

26th Nov 2006, 20:20

Hope you're right as I've no particular interest in any of the airports previously mentioned, other than I'd rather see a strong regional presence than the current(?) trend to centralisation - however, as I've said before lets wait and see...

Herne Bay

27th Nov 2006, 10:03

I say a few things about how MSE is doing well and the forum comes to life.
There is slow and steady growth in all area's with the new owners.
Next year we have the flights to USA and Kent Escapes holidays.
Cargo is increasing.
If higher tax's are made on avation fuel, this may help the smaller airports as overheads are much smaller.
Only time will tell.

catflaps

27th Nov 2006, 10:39

"If higher tax's are made on avation fuel, this may help the smaller airports"

Smaller airports do not have the throughput to allow them to make the economies of scale which are possible at the larger airports. It's a bit like the supermarkets; the bigger you are, the better deal you can leverage from your suppliers. The issue of aviation fuel is a case in point. Manston doesn't use vast amounts and so, they have to pay top-whack for it. In addition, at Manston, all of the aviation fuel has to be brought down to the airport from Essex in road tankers. If fuel prices rise, they not only have to contend with the rising price of the aviation fuel, but also the rising cost of diesel for the tanker fleet. In essence, a small airport, like Manston, faces a double whammy.

All the talk about cargo tonnages seems a bit glossy to me. What actually matters is not the raw tonnage, but how much money you are making from it. As I recall, Planestation weren't making much out of MK. They tried to increase the fees and MK went to Ostend. MK may be back but I don't know how much Infratil are making from it.

snarfel

28th Nov 2006, 15:45

“The issue of aviation fuel is a case in point.”
MK has now three Europe bases on a mere 240 miles distance, LUX, MSE and right in between OST, only 65 miles away from MSE. However, this aberation seems for MK yet preferable by the only promise given by the Ostend Council of providing in a near future fuel brought in by ships at its harbour. Should such opportunity be created in Ramsgate, MK certainly might be convinced to increase substantially its come back to MSE. We now see sometimes MK a/c visiting the three EU-bases in succession. What a waste of time and money.

no slots

1st Dec 2006, 18:57

Blimey lads, Manston off page 1, relegated to page 3.
Cum on there must be something going on or the doom and gloomers will have more ammunition to fire off!!
Greetings from shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!:D

deedave

1st Dec 2006, 19:55

So here we are at the beginning of December, the month when Esperia were due to start at MSE.

Extravagant claims were made for this venture - some contributors even claiming to have been interviewed for work with this airline.

Is Esperia at MSE?

Nope.

What I personally find particularly irksome is the handling by our local press.
The venture was plastered all over the Isle of Thanet Gazette back in Autumn, but now it's non-occurence is quietly forgotten.

Sadly, this is typical of the unbalanced, unrealistic view of MSE which is constantly fed to the poor fools of Thanet.

MDIS

2nd Dec 2006, 08:13

You should note that there was one organisation who said nothing about Esperia and that was the airport owners Infratil!

They do not entertain rumour and heresay.

When a deal is done I believe they will announce it, stand by it and it will happen, but there are too many dreamers out there.

More large reels of cable delivered this week. Must be for the traffic lights on the dual carriageway!!

MDIS

no slots

2nd Dec 2006, 11:58

ah ha. Deedave. I knew my post would reawaken some responses from the knockers.However, you are right about Esperia they seem to have gone very quiet.Back on the page 1 now tho.One day might be for the right reason. Lets hope so.
:p shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

SWBKCB

2nd Dec 2006, 17:04

What I personally find particularly irksome is the handling by our local press. The venture was plastered all over the Isle of Thanet Gazette back in Autumn, but now it's non-occurence is quietly forgotten. .

Nowt to do with Manston, but is typical of the level of reporting of most of the press (and not just aviation related) - why both doing any work when you can just 'cut and paste' a press release??:mad:

catflaps

3rd Dec 2006, 14:47

I think their reporting would be more accurate if they just cut and pasted the comments from this board. At least there's some balance here.

MDIS

4th Dec 2006, 14:33

Large sign being erected today on the Industrial Park

"Summit Aviation building a new 80,000 sq ft jet engine maintenance facility opening Summer 2007"

Summit are currently based in Broadstairs and also have a facility in Gloucester.

Looks like Infratil are continuing to do what they promised and attracting aviation support companies to the Airport.

MDIS

deedave

12th Dec 2006, 09:23

Back in September, Jes posted a rumour that there would be 2 new cargo operators at MSE before Christmas.

As there is only a fortnight to go, does anyone know if an announcement is due, or is this rumour without foundation ?

Herne Bay

12th Dec 2006, 10:08

I am on the side of the flight path of runway 28
I see MK some time 1 or 2 a day, some must be loaded out as I saw one very low off the end of the runway two weeks ago.
Also Egypt Air cargo I think about 4 a week come in.
And the odd cargo plane. I don't see all
In the last week I noticed a BA 747 doing touch and go,s, and Virgin was about.
The Airport has been advising for a cargo manager £25k.
A lot of works been done, new radar system, lighting ,the whole place must have been rewired, trenchs over the whole airport. all the work is safety related.
The man I talk to tells me lots will happen next year.
Just have to wait and see.
I think the Airport will be around for a while yet.
With all the talk about Esperia, the only one that never said a word was Infratil, I dont think there say a word about any new traffic untill a deal is done and dusted.
They may not even give a press release about cargo.

MDIS

12th Dec 2006, 16:00

deedave

13th Dec 2006, 19:35

I confess I'd forgotten all about the EU ban on Das Air Cargo.

I suppose in a sense, rather than acquiring 2 new operators in the run up to Xmas, we actually managed to lose one!

Interesting that MSE need a new cargo manager.
Who was doing the job before?
£25k seems a pitifully small salary.

Manston Airport

14th Dec 2006, 12:19

DAS Air should be operating again soon.

Well said Herne Bay, Infratil dont shout about potential deals until they are set in stone.

The wiring is for new taxiway lighting and the installation of the replacement radar. Lighting is delayed because a quantity of copper wire was stolen !!

MDIS

Have DAS been given a the go-ahead to return to the EU skies?

And copper wire I hear can be up to thousands of pounds if they sell it.

James

tilewood

14th Dec 2006, 15:49

And copper wire I hear can be up to thousands of pounds if they sell it.
James
Depends how long it is!!;)

niknak

14th Dec 2006, 22:26

Depends how long it is!!;)

Anyone from Sheffield will be able to answer that, as it is well known that copper wire was invented by two Yorkshiremen arguing over a 2p piece...:E

Herne Bay

15th Dec 2006, 08:18

We have talked about lots of things on this forum the cost of air fuel , transport links.
Two things in the news this last week, landing charges at BAA airport are going up, and more runways at Heathrow and Stanstead.
Am I on my own but, to get into Heathrow is now a nightmare, the M25 is grid locked, its ok if your flight is weekends, I had a flight at 11.00 on a Thusday left at Herne Bay at 06.00 and got to the check in at 10.40 I got on, a BA flight.
But would never do it again, it the same from south east London.
Gatwick is better you can avoid the M25 and M23 some times, but for passengers west of london it must be bad.
Stanstead is much better, for peple on the east side of london, But I did spend 5 hours on a friday night on the M11 and M25
Public transport is fine to all Airport if you live in central London.
If you live out in the sticks, you try going to a London airport with two children by public transport from say Canterbury. And the cost !!!!. it as much as you flights.
I am not saying that Manston easy to get to for all , its not, but for a big part of the south east it is.

deedave

15th Dec 2006, 15:43

niknak - I think you'll find the Yorkshiremen were arguing over a farthing.

catflaps

15th Dec 2006, 19:13

Herne Bay exaggerates the difficulty of getting to Heathrow or Stansted from Kent. A couple of weeks ago I tried to get up to Maidstone from Thanet. The police had shut the M2 following an accident. I sat in the traffic for an hour or so and then tried to get off onto the A2. Everyone else had tried the same thing and the A2 was completely jammed. Eventually, after three hours, I gave up, turned around and went home. It is highly misleading to suggest that East Kent is easily accessible. There's basically one road in and one road out. If that road gets blocked you're stuffed.

If it were economically viable to open routes for the South-East it's far better to do it from Gatwick than Manston, because it's far more central and has a bigger catchment area. What you seem to be suggesting is that it's economically viable to operate routes from Manston that are not considered to be economically viable from Gatwick. Poppycock.

Herne Bay

16th Dec 2006, 12:19

I am not saying Manston should have lots of flights.
But to say that thanet has one road in is no quite true can can use the a2 or m20 or come up the coast route.
I can only talk about my own trips.
In the last year I been on 8 flights 4 from Stanstead 3 by car and one by train all with out any problems, one did take me a while to get home, by train was ok but I the train fare was about £37 each way and a taxi from VIC to LPOOL ST was about £12 each way and about 3 hours + and you have to give you self a hour or so for check in.
The 2 flights from Gatwick. (I give myself 4 hours by road). One I was ok, but did get into a mess, with long term parking once, (transfers one per hour from park to Airport )very stress full.
I used to drive two to three times a week round the M25 to work in Swindon the road has just to much traffic, Its just full, perhaps charging you use it may help.
I have used London City which I found very good I used a taxi up and back.
What is the point of building more runways at these Airport when the transport links are no good.
What would be good for Kent is Rail links to Gatwick, Heathrow even Stanstead.
Say Ramsgate to Gatwick via canterbury tonbridge, a Tunbridge Well Gatwick used to run.
For me Manston is in the right place, I live near it.
And flights to Spain and Ireland would save me hours, and I would pay a little more for a no hassle trip.
And I am sure it would for a large area of the south east.
We will have have to wait and see.

catflaps

17th Dec 2006, 11:44

"We will have have to wait and see."

We've been waiting since 1997. That's ten years. How long will it be before you admit you're wrong ? My guess is that hell will freeze over first.

berrs003

17th Dec 2006, 17:57

CATFLAPS, i hear there is an NHS anger management unit opening at Ramsgate. You should pay a vist ;)

deedave

17th Dec 2006, 18:58

berrs -
The "Calm Down" jibe is a very tired old gag on this thread, I suggest you avoid it.

Meanwhile......

How come no Infratil report on November traffic at MSE?
They published October's within 48 hours.

Herne Bay,
The points you make are quite old, and sound good in theory, and I was convinced the first 40 - odd times I heard them from various sources.
So much so that I backed the airport financially.
I am a very frequent flyer, and would love to use MSE, but it will never happen. Travellers like me need double dailies to 50 - plus destinations all year round, and only London can supply this.

I am an MSE pessemist, but even I was shocked that Seguro were unable to fill a once-a-week service to two very popular destinations (some of the BCN flights carried only EIGHT pax)

I now realise that my flying antics put me in a minority in this part of the world - people simply are not interested.

LYX may well do better with it's affluent catchment area and good London links.

tilewood

17th Dec 2006, 19:03

CATFLAPS, i hear there is an NHS anger management unit opening at Ramsgate. You should pay a vist ;)

Catflaps is only stating the obvious. If he does sound a little irritable it is because this circular and sterile argument about Manston's future, or lack of it, has been aired so many times.

If wishes were fact then the airport would be buzzing, but it is as quiet as
the grave, and is indeed the graveyard of a number of airlines who have
tried and failed.

Cargo maybe - charter flights perhaps - scheduled services I don't think so.

Poor surface access and a small catchment area will not encourage high frequency operators.

I would like to be proved wrong, but the facts speak for themselves.

In the meantime keep dreaming!

Jes

18th Dec 2006, 07:38

18 December 2006
Wellington Airport November 2006 Traffic Statistics
November traffic results were more positive than they have been in recent months. Domestic passengers grew by 2.6% on last November (flat year to
date), and the domestic load factor in November was 76%. International
passengers were up 11.8% on last November (year to date down 1.3%) with a load factor of 75% for the month. Both these results are positive signs. Air
New Zealand has announced capacity reductions for a number of cities in
Northern Summer season 2007 (our winter), but the longer term outlook for
international traffic growth remains positive. The prospects for profitable
competition and growth, based on lower cost models, now seem better than they were earlier this year. Now that the code-share has been dropped, it seems more likely that Jetstar will expand on the Tasman, there are signs of Virgin Blue (Pacific Blue) performing better and seeking expansion opportunities, and Air New Zealand has said that it may revisit its model for the Tasman.
In other developments, Regency Duty Free commenced trading on-schedule on 1 December, despite delays earlier this year resulting from an arbitration with the incumbent. The first stage of the international terminal development will be largely complete by end January. Trading at the Airport Retail Park is
well underway with Stage 1 of the centre now almost completely leased. A
number of improvements and expansion of capacity have commenced in the car park. Finally, Wellington Airport has now received airline responses to its
3% per annum initial pricing proposal and will now consider airline views.
http://www.infratil.com/wial_financial_summary.htm
Infratil Airports Europe: November 2006 Traffic Statistics
Glasgow Prestwick Airport
Glasgow Prestwick handled a total of 161,101 passengers in November against a prior year total of 166,745.
New services launched throughout 2006 have benefited passenger throughput, set against a reduction in Ryanair capacity of more than 8,000 seats.
A new four-times-weekly service to Riga, operated by Ryanair, began operating at the start of the month.
The airport handled 2,872 tonnes of freight which represents a 14% increase
on the prior year total and the second highest monthly total of the calendar
year to date.
There were strong performances from Polar and Panalpina, while tonnage on ad hoc/charter movements is more than three times the prior year total, helped in part by four charters carrying whisky to South America.
Kent International Airport
Kent International handled 2,988 tonnes of freight in November making it
another record month, up 16% on October and nearly double the prior year
figure.
Scheduled services by MK Airlines account for 82% of the total tonnage and,
while freight volume is traditionally high at this time of year, exports were
21% up on October and continue to show encouraging signs.
Luebeck Airport
Passenger throughput in November, at 41,708, was marginally down on the prior year total of 42,623.
Load factors show an 8% increase on 2005 - roughly the same margin by which overall seat capacity has been reduced over the same period.
Ryanair announced their sixth destination from Luebeck during the month. They will operate a four-times-weekly service to Marseilles from January.

deedave

18th Dec 2006, 07:56

I see IFT are still using the term "record month" to describe cargo tonnage at MSE, which is, of course, not true.

Oh well - at least they are acknowledging that any increase at this time of year is a seasonal factor.

Herne Bay

18th Dec 2006, 09:12

We have the worlds largest wind farm being built off Thanet.
More investment into the area, time are changing fast for Thanet.

This help Manston I am sure.

Andy_S

18th Dec 2006, 09:24

We have the worlds largest wind farm being built off Thanet.
More investment into the area, time are changing fast for Thanet.
This help Manston I am sure.
How on earth is construction of an offshore windfarm going to be of benefit to an onshore airport?

Wellington Bomber

18th Dec 2006, 10:37

Maybe they will strap on a fuselage to one of the wind turbines when it is not in use and have a flying boat?

tilewood

18th Dec 2006, 15:44

We have the worlds largest wind farm being built off Thanet.
More investment into the area, time are changing fast for Thanet.

This help Manston I am sure.

Er .......... please explain how!! The turbines will be miles off shore,sending about enough power to light a torch, and that's when the wind blows. This will arrive via a cable to a substation and then onward to the grid.

Manston won't exactly become another Aberdeen.

Manston Airport

18th Dec 2006, 15:56

"We will have have to wait and see."

We've been waiting since 1997. That's ten years. How long will it be before you admit you're wrong ? My guess is that hell will freeze over first.

But next year we have flights to america and three flights for kent escape lets hope more cargo flights and passager come in next year:ok: please no stupid comments about this unless it dont happen this time next year you can say:suspect:

James

catflaps

18th Dec 2006, 17:25

fj1

18th Dec 2006, 17:29

"..please no stupid comments about this unless it dont happen"

... When you couple this with the transport links that have gone in, it looks as if Lydd could really take-off and scupper any passenger ambitions that Manston was harbouring.

err, have you ever been to lydd

Twitcher

18th Dec 2006, 18:09

When you couple this with the transport links that have gone in, it looks as if Lydd could really take-off and scupper any passenger ambitions that Manston was harbouring.
Surely you're not saying Lydd has better access than Manston?
Eujet, yes it failed as you've said umpteen times. :bored:
Esperia was never officially launched so not sure you can count it as failed? :hmm:
Kent Escapes, they had start that was'nt fantastic, they've decided to do it again next year. They've now got their name established and people will trust them and use them more next year, especially on what are better routes than this year.
Virginia flights are doing well so I'm told. Surely too early for you you say they'll fail too.:ugh:
Oh and the sheep have arrived on the airfield, They won't make money for Infratil but they'll save money for them.
Also expect there to be changes as there is now a new kid on the block too.

MDIS

18th Dec 2006, 18:30

It appears that we are going around in circles.

I would disagree that MSE doesnt have the catchment area because
EUjet were on target to carry 400,000 passengers in their first year of operation which is 100,000 more than SOU managed in their first year in the new terminal. Manston does have a place as a regional airport but it will never offer the 50 double dailies that deedave wants.

You may be intersed to know the catchment area extended as far as South London (FACT) and passengers were willing to travel to MSE as opposed to going to LGW.

If we take Maidstone as an example because it is equidistant from LGW and MSE. According to AA route planner it takes 46 minutes to travel the 42 miles to LGW and 57 minutes to travel the 44 miles to Manston resulting in a saving of 11 minutes. This will easily be consumed by the understaffed and inadequate securty at BAA, the long walk from the pier to the terminal and then the 40 minute minimum wait for baggage reclaim.

I note deedaves comment about the accident on the M2 which closed it, but in comparison to the M25 the M2 runs like a dream.

deedave you also ask why there was no announcement on pax figures for November, it probably because there werent any. Seguro had finished their Summer schedule and there were no other passenger movements apart from a few private jets.

I do feel that with the right operators and the right aircraft MSE can become a successful regional airport. Having said that, if MSE does succeed I will be very happy but if it doesn't I wont lose any sleep.

PS dont count your chickens on the Virginia flights!

Mdis

MDIS

18th Dec 2006, 18:34

Twitcher

what do you mean??

Mdis

Herne Bay

18th Dec 2006, 19:17

Wind farm
The building of the London array will make 800 new jobs for 3 years on construction, and 100 jobs at Ramsgate long term.
This must have an major affect on areas, all of these are very well paid jobs.
The power from such an array will generate the power for the whole of Kent and part of Sussex, (all we need is wind of course).1% of the UK requirement.
When the Herne Bay wind farm was being built a few private planes used the airport and few jets.
As Thanet inproves with new investment I gives an economic boost to the area brings more companys in. The jet engine repair centre being next to the airport, next year. The shoping centre at Westwood, Thanet is not the run down place it was a few years ago.

deedave

18th Dec 2006, 20:53

This is a Manston thread, so I won't bang on about LYX too much.

However -

Ashford is an established London commuter town, with a fast train link(soon to be faster) full of wealthy looking suity types.

I have no idea if Lydd has a future as a commercial airport, but with the area's cultural identity linked to the metropolis, it sure as hell has a better chance than dear old baseball-cap Thanet.

EUjet only got bums on seats at MSE by giving the seats away, but the aircraft were still more than half empty.
Seguro are selling their seats at a proper price, and it ain't going too well.

If LYX can sell a decent number of seats at a commercial rate then MSE is sunk as a pax airport.

And with the impact of the Stern report coupled with increased capacity at the London airports, you can forget about the idea that this area has room for two commercially viable airports.

MDIS

19th Dec 2006, 07:51

deedave

Were you involved in the management of EUjet?
I assume not otherwise you wouldnt be saying what you are saying, therefore how do you know how many aircraft were half empty and how much the seats were sold for

I have passenger figures for all flights for every day that they operated and I can assure you that you info is wrong! Please dont come back with "well there wont be much paperwork as they only operated for less than a year" Ive heard it all before.

As I have said before I am not hung up on Manston but there needs to be some reality here.

If LYX beats MSE to it then this bodes well for East Kent. I would still rather go to LYX or MSE than LGW. Do you really believe that LYX will have the 50 double dailies that you so require. Also the Eurostar is soon to have its stops at Ashford seriously reduced, Obviously the passenger loads from this Commuter town arent as lucrative as you suggest.

I notice you had no response to my Maidstone traveller scenario, or the publication of November pax figures.

Mdis

Andy_S

19th Dec 2006, 08:07

The building of the London array will make 800 new jobs for 3 years on construction, and 100 jobs at Ramsgate long term. This must have an major affect on areas, all of these are very well paid jobs.Well that's fair enough, but remember that the 800 jobs will be specialised labour, the vast majority of which will need to be drawn from outside the area. So a lot of the money earnt is ultimately going to be spent elsewhere.
When the Herne Bay wind farm was being built a few private planes used the airport and few jets.That's hardly going to transform the fortunes of the airport.....
I understand your argument about the trickle down effect of a major project like this, and indeed it's most welcome. But I simply don't see that a) a great deal of that money will remain in the local economy, and b) that what does will trickle down far enough to stimulate demand for the airport.

catflaps

19th Dec 2006, 08:29

With respect to EUjet, MDIS made the following statement:

"..how do you know how many aircraft were half empty and how much the seats were sold for? I have passenger figures for all flights for every day that they operated and I can assure you that you info is wrong!"

If this is true, someone made a terrible cock-up, because EUjet went bust and took the parent company with them. If MDIS is now saying that this wasn't because of a failure to get bums on seats, it must have been because they weren't charging enough for the seats the bums were sitting on. Make your mind up MDIS. Whether you like it or not, EUjet was a colossal failure.

Herne Bay

19th Dec 2006, 10:26

What brings this forum to life, is any thing good, said about MSE.
Cargo up for November.
I have said before I live to near to the side of the flight path of runway 28
more large jets are coming in of late, and out some are clearly loaded out.
(far lower off the runway). I see a steady growth in flights and that's a fact.

Manston Airport

19th Dec 2006, 12:54

"..please no stupid comments about this unless it dont happen"

Why do I have to wait until next year to comment? Can't I comment about the Esperia flights that didn't happen this year (this month, in fact)? Presumably, by the time Kent Escapes and Virginia flights fail the optimists will have cooked up some new pipe-dream to talk about. In my experience, people who want only want to talk about the future can't face the present. This is what happened with EUjet. Everyone involved kept looking forward. No-one was looking at the financial black-hole opening up beneath their feet. You keep looking forward. I'll look where I'm treading, and I reserve the right to warn others.

Interesting news about Lydd today. The contrast with Manston is noteworthy. Lydd has a properly constructed business plan; they've done a full Environmental Impact Assessment in accordance with the regulations; they've submitted a formal planning application to extend the runway and build a new terminal; they're intending to engage with a full public consultation and they have a shed-load of money behind them. When you couple this with the transport links that have gone in, it looks as if Lydd could really take-off and scupper any passenger ambitions that Manston was harbouring.

Eujet had to many routes to start with when other LCC start with 5 or 6 plus they were in charge by planestation who have never owned an airline before Eujet never failed by passagers it failed by its owners. And at Lydd whats the Airline RSPB Airways? Manston has the area all it needs is the right airline for the right places:ok: Also expect there to be changes as there is now a new kid on the block too Who the new Kid then Twitcher. And deedave was you ever on a EUjet flight I flew with them five times and they where more the 60% full.People say the Fokker 100 was the wrong plane I think its better then a A320 on pax numbers. Oh one other thing Ramsgate will be getting a fast train services.

James

tilewood

19th Dec 2006, 16:07

One thing I have never been able to understand about the Manston thread is how an airport that offers so little can generate such passion and heat, but very little light from some who post on it.

I have been dipping in and out of the Manston thread for the last few years, the arguments and wishful posts haven't changed a bit. It is a completely circular and sterile discussion which gets nowhere.

If the airport is so commercially attractive just ask yourselves why the terminal is empty, and airlines aren't clamouring to get some of the action.

Successful companies are not run by stupid financially illiterate people, hard-nosed commercialism is what keeps them afloat, not sentiment.

If all those routes, which some of you seem to think created a golden age with EuJet, were commercially viable don't you think they would have been grabbed by other airlines as soon as EuJet went under

Still I suppose it's good to dream, after all it is Christmas!

Jes

19th Dec 2006, 18:34

The key point is we invested a small amount of money and we may well have lost it. Buying Kent (airport) is a good example. We paid 17 million pounds and we will spend another 10 million to 20 million pounds on it. If it doesn't work out, we could lose 40 million pounds. If it does work out, it's not going to be worth 40 million pounds, it's going to be worth many more times that. That's what we call optionality. The downside is measureable. If you buy an option on the market, it's not got nothing to do with NTA. It's really about looking at what the potential value is. I think we may shake that off over time, if we keep performing. (There are people who see) the glass is half full and (those who see) the glass is half empty. What we need us to get more of the half full ones. A number of the people who analyse us are the glass half empty people. A number of analysts who are very smart people rate us as a hold and they've rated us as a hold every time they've rated us in the last five years. Eventually they will be right. The criticisms of us are credible and fair. They might not be right and they haven't been right in the past, but they might be right this time. It takes different views to make a market.
.
.
SC: Why have Glasgow Prestwick's freight volumes turned around? I thought the decline was structural in that industry was moving out of Scotland.

LM: That has been the case, but ultimately, as the White Paper looking into the future of UK airports said, regardless of those sort of issues, in the long term Prestwick will be a successful freight airport. It's the only one of sufficient size north of Manchester that can take large freighters. I guess we've bottomed and we've started to turn around. We will just have to see that the trend is maintained. We don't know what's going to happen on a month by month basis.

SC: The Kent airport seems to have been particularly successful in attracting freight volumes. Why? Isn't building freight the key to that airport?

LM: We will get passengers eventually. It could establish itself as a London airport for freight. It's showing some very good early signs, but it's early days. The weakness for the airport is it doesn't have enough airlines, but the ones it has are growing their business very quickly. It's already well ahead of where we expected it to be a year after buying it.

SC: What did you mean in the first-half report that Lubeck airport "may not be as constrained by its existing development consents as originally thought"? That's a much smaller airport than the other two isn't it?

LM: It is but it has a much larger catchment area. It's within an hour of 4.5 million people. In Wellington, there's only 500,000 people. It will never have freight, it will only have passengers. Historically, it's been very dependent on an extension of the runway. What's apparent to us now is some carriers are using different aircraft that don't need that extension.

SC: When do you expect Infratil's European airport operations will start making a positive contribution?

LM: We don't have a specific date, but it's something that we think about a lot. We're very aware of how hard it has been to turn around and the amount of resources that's been required, the effort required and how long it takes, but we're very confident we're getting it right. It really is hard, slow work. You have to be patient at the same time as working with quite a lot of optimism. We're sure we will get there.

tilewood

19th Dec 2006, 18:54

MDIS

19th Dec 2006, 23:42

Take a step back and answer the positives. (if you can??)

Mdis

EI-BUD

20th Dec 2006, 03:06

I have to agree with Manston Airports thread. The right airlines are needed.

Having looked at some of the CAA info re passenger numbers. Manston airport certainly had reasonable passenger numbers on some routes. Despite the fact that the load factors were poor many of the routes were satisfactory for a smaller aircraft size, and the right airline with a good amount of low fares, promoting the market and with a good value percetion in the market. I think the most suitable airlines are Flybe and Aer Arann, Aer Arann with a twice daily ATR42 to Dublin,would develop the market and pick up a reasonable business??? If flybe had say 2 Q400s based they could perform the same miracles that they did at Exeter and Southampton...?? WHat does anyone think???

CAA INFO on MANSTON Airport
Eg month October 2004
Dublin ....3907( some months as high as 4500 )
Edinburgh...3948
Amsterdam...3538
Manchester...3119

With a well known brand like Flybe these figures could be improved significantly. What does anyone think???

catflaps

20th Dec 2006, 07:25

Buster the Bear

20th Dec 2006, 18:04

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6197705.stm

johnrizzo2000

20th Dec 2006, 19:05

I think given the right incentives, BE moving into Manston would be great. Look what they've done for Exeter!!!!!! The dash-400 is ideal for this airport, and BE could make a real success out of it!

catflaps

20th Dec 2006, 19:23

Where else is it so deserted that you can nick the engine from a plane without anyone noticing ?

MDIS

20th Dec 2006, 20:43

I can see Morrison's comments going down like a lead balloon with the locals. The approach to Manston comes stright across the town of Ramsgate at less than 1000ft. The one thing they don't want (or need) is a massive freight depot, with large jets coming in at all hours of the day and night. Expect some serious opposition, if that's what they're planning.

Ah catflaps at last we now know why you dont want MSE to succeed, you dont want noisy aeroplanes flying over your house at 1000ft

Also I would remind you that it was Planestation ( the parent company) that had its bank funding withdrwn and therefore it was Planestation who took EUjet down.

Mdis

marty12

20th Dec 2006, 23:13

Well said Mdis, at last someone that's aware of how EUJET went. All we hear is "How EUJET failed".. erm it was the parent company that the banks forclosed on!.

blazing_air

21st Dec 2006, 00:32

Where else is it so deserted that you can nick the engine from a plane without anyone noticing ?

Where else indeed catflaps
Exhibit 1 M'lord:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/26/newsid_2529000/2529235.stm

C'mon if your gonna make sensationalistic claims, at least have your facts right.
It was hardly taken off a plane was it !
At the time of the incident African didn't have any aircraft at the airport, so they could hardly steal from it could they and without going into detail, Africans warehouse is outside the perimiter fence and the crooks were caught, so someone did notice.
Fact not fiction !!

Buster the Bear

21st Dec 2006, 06:36

Many years ago at Luton, a Boeing 707 (or it could have been a 720) was scrapped in the run up bay area. Very early one morning a fleet of huge dump trucks arrived at the fire station to be escorted to the hulk. All the metal was removed from site and the fleet of trucks departed.

Later that day another, this time ligitimate fleet of dump trucks arrived to clear the scrap metal. An organised gang had stolen the metal, this also occured with the scrapping of the ex Britannia Airways Britannia's during the early 1970's.

An engine being stolen, probably by organised gangs intent on making a few quid.

MDIS

21st Dec 2006, 07:40

Maybe the engine was removed so that it would a bit quieter flying over Ramsgate especially for catflaps

dionysius

21st Dec 2006, 08:49

It was the second time that AIA had been targeted, and 2 engines were stolen, looks like those cctv cameras are finally working.....:)

Pikeys.............:}

Andy_S

21st Dec 2006, 12:36

Also I would remind you that it was Planestation ( the parent company) that had its bank funding withdrwn and therefore it was Planestation who took EUjet down.
I think that's being rather selective with the truth.
Yes, Planestation lost the support of their bank.
Why? Because their debts were growing week in, week out, and were in danger of eroding the limited asset base.
Why? Err, because they had a subsidiary called EUjet who were losing money hand over fist.
This is NOT a reflection on the quality of the people who worked for EUjet, just the unfortunate truth. If EUjet were the success some people imagined, they would actually have propped Planestation up. As it was, they dragged it down. To say that the bank withdrew support from Planestation may be true, but is a technicality in the greater scheme of things.

Herne Bay

21st Dec 2006, 14:10

Planestation had lost MK little or no cargo traffic only eujet left.
Now we have a company renting out land on the site, MK back with far more than before, Egypt Airways and more on the way.
next year will have USA flights and Kent escapes.
Investment new radar, noticed the runway lit up with new blue lights the other night.
Infratil are not going to spend 20m on the airports infrasture and sell it for non-aircraft use.
They may well sell it as an Airport, that's what they do, get cheap invest and sell.
These peple do there homework, experts in this sort of investment, look at there track record.
I am sure the airport will be sold on, But a up and running one.
You can say what you like , the company's on target to do said it would do and thats a fact.

Manston Airport

21st Dec 2006, 14:30

Ah catflaps at last we now know why you dont want MSE to succeed, you dont want noisy aeroplanes flying over your house at 1000ft

Also I would remind you that it was Planestation ( the parent company) that had its bank funding withdrwn and therefore it was Planestation who took EUjet down.

Mdis
:D :D Thats what I been trying to say but they wont belive us:mad: I was in Ramsgate when a DAS Air Cargo and an MK flew over with in 10 seconds it was silent I people are moaning about that how sad and MSE becomeing a massive freight depot would be brilliant:ok:

James

MDIS

21st Dec 2006, 17:36

I think that's being rather selective with the truth.
Yes, Planestation lost the support of their bank.
Why? Because their debts were growing week in, week out, and were in danger of eroding the limited asset base.
Why? Err, because they had a subsidiary called EUjet who were losing money hand over fist.
This is NOT a reflection on the quality of the people who worked for EUjet, just the unfortunate truth. If EUjet were the success some people imagined, they would actually have propped Planestation up. As it was, they dragged it down. To say that the bank withdrew support from Planestation may be true, but is a technicality in the greater scheme of things.

Andy

I not 100% sure of the facts because I dont work for the banks and I was not in Planestation's senior management. However, even before EUjet the group must have been in trouble, they were involved in so many "schemes and projects" that they lacked focus.

Surely a Plc with some sharp management couldn't have been hoodwinked into buying an airline without first conducting a due diligence exercise. I am not saying that the failure was totally down to Planestation but I do remember a post from someone who sounded like they knew what they talking about suggesting that EUjet was close to breaking even.

Please tell me what happened to the £30 Million raised in the City which was meant to guarantee the operation for 2 years. It was all gone in 2 months!! This was not the fault of EUjet but more to do with the mis management of Planestation.

Having said all of this the real issue is whether or not MSE has a future as a regional airport. I personally think it has but lets wait and see. I dont know what the weather has been like in Ramsgate today but if its been clear a switched on operator would have contacted BA and told them to bring a couple of aircraft in and bus some pax from LHR. Just a thought!!

Herne Bay

New taxiway lighting completed.

Mdis

Andy_S

21st Dec 2006, 18:11

MDIS,
Many thanks for a courteous and reasoned response. :ok:
You are quite correct. Planestation, even before EUjet, was a debt ridden, loss making company. And I agree with every word you say about it's lack of focus. Having said that, for all it's many faults, it's own overheads were directed to nothing more than pursuit of real estate projects and managing unused airports, and it had managed to bumble along like that for a number of years. Indeed, in their last CEO, Martin May, they had a man who had cut back on their wilder ambitions. Definitely the wrong man for the job, but still, with a leaner and lower cost parent company, a successful EUjet should not have been a millstone round it's neck.
Many people have claimed, on this and previous PPruNe MSE threads, to have had some kind of insider knowledge of EUjet's finances and / or operations. I certainly don't, so all I can go by are the CAA figures, which even in the last months of EUjet's life struggled to stay above 40% loading. Were they close to breakeven? Again, I don't know, but the whole shebang went bust in the month of July, I believe. If they were only "close" to breakeven in the peak summer months, what was going to happen come September, October, November..... Those who claim EUjet as a success have never been able to explain why a) it wasn't purchased as a going concern from the administrator, or b) why others haven't stepped in to operate individual routes.
I do believe that MSE has a future, and I think Infratil are a shrewd outfit who are committed to operating it as an airport. However, I'm not convinced it has great passenger potential other than a bit of charter business - my feeling is that freight is the niche that Manston is well placed to exploit.

tilewood

21st Dec 2006, 18:24

Has Manston been a beneficiary of any of the aircraft diverting from the
main London airports due weather?

Twitcher

21st Dec 2006, 18:43

tilewood

Oasishongkong 747 diverted in this morning. They crew train here regularly so it was familiar with Manston.

Several bizjet movements too, no fog all day at Manston. KOSMOS, MK and Egyptair all ran problem free today.

MDIS

21st Dec 2006, 18:43

Andy

I agree with your points

Planestation was "bumbling along for years" perhaps someone said (MM perhaps) "enough bumbling along, lets go for Sh*t or bust" unfortunately it was the latter!!

johnrizzo2000 responded to EI-BUD suggesting that a dash 400 or ATR 42 operator could operate from MSE to say DUB, EDI, AMS and MAN. This would be a good start and once the pax experience MSE I am sure the regional network would expand.

Just to answer your point about why other operators havent jumped in to take over the routes. Infratil have been up front and have said that they will not entertain any operators until the airfield infrastructure is up to scratch. The last thing they need is for a new operator to start and then the lighting packs in. This can only be achieved if you have the money which Infratil obviously have.

What was the weather like in Manston today? If it was ok I wonder if anyone was switched on enough to ring BA and get a few aircraft into MSE and bus the pax in.

Many thanks for the sensible discussion.

PS Where is Clarty Waters

deedave

22nd Dec 2006, 03:03

MDIS-

Your earlier response to my comments suggests that you have not read my posts properly. I would respectfully request that you read them carefully before responding.

Thank you,

deedave

Expressflight

22nd Dec 2006, 07:12

MDIS

22nd Dec 2006, 07:38

Exressflight

I agree with your comments entirely.

So many people who knock Manstons viability do so on the presumption that it wants to be a feeder for London. This is just not correct.

The 400,000 pax that flew with EUjet were not people who really wanted to be in London, they were people from Kent and Sussex, Surrey and South London who wanted to use a small regional airport. This is where MSE future lies not in being marketed by Ryanair as London.

My comments yesterday about haveing some diversions was only made after seeing the chaos at Heathrow. From what I saw of the passengers they would have been happy to travel anywhere to get home for Xmas.

Deedave

Not sure what you mean, please explain.

Mdis

catflaps

22nd Dec 2006, 08:19

"Infratil are not going to spend 20m on the airports infrasture and sell it for non-aircraft use."

If it isn't paying as an airport they will most certainly sell it for non-aviation use. They are a business and they will want to get as much as they can for the site. Nobody can dictate that they have to keep it as an airport. You have to remember that it was up for sale barely a year ago. Infratil bought it for £17million. Why? Because nobody else wanted it, that's why. Presumably, other potential suitors recognized the limitations and shortcomings of the site. To now suggest that they will be queuing up to buy it at a far higher price is nonsensical.

blazing_air

22nd Dec 2006, 11:44

Several posts in the past have made reference to MSE being an airport capable of serving London and have based their hopes for scheduled pax services on this assumption.

Elsewhere on this forum SEN is reported to have yesterday received 67 additional re-routed or diverted inbound flights including BA, while it sounds as if MSE received a mere handful.

Surely that very fact puts MSE's potential as a 'London' airport into its proper prespective. London Southend - yes. London Manston - unrealistic.

MSE were asked to handle around 3000 pax from B.A yesterday, but refused due to not having enough fuel to service the diverts without jeopardising MK and Egypt.
Sad really because they could have a made a few quid out of it, but it highlights the restrictions of using MSE at the moment and the need for a new B.F.I

Manston Airport

22nd Dec 2006, 16:26

blazing_air

That is sad :( would be great having all these BA A/C in whats B.F.I? Lets hope more Oasis hong kong 747 diverted into MSE

James

catflaps

22nd Dec 2006, 19:22

Nope I still don't get it MDIS. You seem to want us to believe that EUjet was a roaring success but you won't accept that it lost shed-loads of money:

"Please tell me what happened to the £30 Million raised in the City which was meant to guarantee the operation for 2 years. It was all gone in 2 months!! This was not the fault of EUjet but more to do with the mis management of Planestation."

I'm not going to disagree with you about mismanagement at Planestation. However, that had been going on for years and the precariousness of their finances financial was well-known. For a start, the £30million you refer to was NOT raised to subsidise EUjet. It was raised to save the parent company. Most of the money was swallowed up by debts that the parent company had already amassed in buying and upgrading Manston, a mistake that Infratil is now repeating.

You say that the money was supposed to "guarantee the operation for two years." This presumed upon the goodwill of the banks, particularly HBOS. It was not in the gift of Planestation to offer guarantees when they were so heavily in debt. Who told you that there was a guarantee?
What you can't get away from is the fact that HBOS pulled the plug after looking at all of the figures. They knew that their chances of recouping the money they'd lent were reducing day-on-day and they are a business. So, they pulled the plug and they got their money back.

We can safely assume that if EUjet's finances had looked as rosy as you suggest they might have been persuaded to give it a bit longer. However, the first rule of running an airline states that if you are giving seats away, you won't make any money. The second rule states that if you use the wrong planes on a route you won't make any money. The third rule states that if you pick the wrong routes you won't make any money. The fourth rule states that if you overstretch yourself you'll go bust in a big way. The fifth rule is that only a complete clod could disobey the first four rules, go bust, and still think it had all been a great success.

Herne Bay

23rd Dec 2006, 05:58

(Please tell me what happened to the £30 Million raised in the City which was meant to guarantee the operation for 2 years. It was all gone in 2 months!! This was not the fault of EUjet but more to do with the mis management of Planestation.")
I understand that the money was never spent, the plug was pulled dispite having this extra funding.
Eujet did not spend the money banked on booked flights, had thay, things could have been a little diferent.
The upside was that I think most peple got there money back I did. Had farepack done this the peple would have got there money back.
I think that thats one thing Eujet lot done right.

deedave

23rd Dec 2006, 10:22

Deedave to MDIS - "Your earlier response to my comments suggests you have not read my posts properly"

MDIS to deedave - "Not sure what you mean. Please explain"

Okey Doke

18 Dec MDIS - "I note deedave's comments about the accident on the M2 which closed it"

- These comments were actually made by someone else.

18 Dec MDIS - "You also ask why there was no announcement on pax figures for November...there weren't any."

- No I didn't. I asked where the November traffic report was. In Manston's case this refers to freight. They must have heard me because they produced it next day.

19 Dec MDIS - "Do you really believe that LYX will have the 50 double dailies that you so require"

- No I don't. On 17 Dec, I said I require 50+ double dailies. I stated quite clearly that for me, only LONDON can supply this.

19 Dec MDIS - "Obviously the passenger loads from (Ashford) aren't as lucrative as you suggest"

- I have made no claims for "lucrative-ness" at Ashford/LYX. However, I would bet a very large sum of money that whatever prospects Lydd has, Manston's are substantially worse, and - "This town ain't big enough for both of 'em."
I can elaborate on this if you wish.

19 Dec MDIS - "I notice you had no response to my Maidstone scenario"

- If your Maidstone scenario was directed at me, I was unaware of it, still less that a reply was required.
To be honest old chum, the number of blokes who have popped up on various forums banging on about how fast or slow this and that road is, and making miniscule time calculations around check-in times etc - has become a bit dull.
Also, the factors affecting an airport's prospects are far more complex - cultural identity, disposable income, age demographic of population, to name but a few.
The only thing I could say is that if I lived in Maidstone I personally wouldn't use MSE because it will never offer the same frequency and variety of business destinations as LGW and LHR.

PS - I wouldn't go around saying BAA have a minimum 40 mins baggage reclaim time if I were you.
It isn't true, and some of these companies can be very touchy.
You wouldn't want them to sue you!

MDIS

23rd Dec 2006, 15:24

Deedave

Thank you for pointing out whwre I am going wrong. Obviously we are on different wavelengths.

You are are correct on your first two points.

You have suggested that you have msde no claims about the lucrative ness of Ashford> Do any of these quotes ring a bell?

"Ashford is an established London commuter town, with a fast train link(soon to be faster) full of wealthy looking suity types"

"....but with the area's cultural identity linked to the metropolis, it sure as hell has a better chance than dear old baseball-cap Thanet"

I would disagree with you point regarding living in Maidstone. SOU does not offer the same frequency of business destinations as LHR or LGW but it is a successful regional airport. I have never suggetsted that MSE will offer all of the destinations and frequencies that you require, but are you really saying that if the same flight and price was available from MSE as you could get at one of the London airports you still wouldn't fly from MSE?

BAA could not sue me regarding their 40 minute baggage reclaim because it is a quoted figure. When I had been waiting 30 minutes for my bags I spoke to the handling agent and I was shown in writing that their target is 40 minutes and that will be the minimum before you can complain. I think it is also staed at the reclaim belts. Next time you are at your favourite London cattle market ask the handling agents about baggage reclaim times.

catflaps

No I dont want you to believe that EUjet was a roaring success, I just want a little balance to your obvious anti MSE campaign. You have to remember this was the first year of operation and if you can show me any airline that has made money in year 1 I would be most impressed

Neither you nor deedave like to hear the other side of the argument. You dont have the inside information any more than the rest of us but I know more about the workings of EUjet than either of you.

Mdis

PS Happy Christmas

deedave

23rd Dec 2006, 16:08

MDIS

Sorry to continue this (briefly), but the debate must be accurate if it is to be worthwhile.

I have taken conscious and deliberate pains to make no claims for Lydd in absolute terms.
(This is why I said "I have no idea if Lydd has a future as a commercial pax airport")
Any comment I make on Lydd is relative to MSE, and I believe vigorously that LYX is better placed to attract pax than MSE.

Regarding Maidstone - If I lived there I would not complicate matters by changing airports unnecessarily. Travel is a necessity more than a pleasure, and I like to keep things simple.

No, of course BAA won't sue you - that was a gag.

But your suggestion that BAA baggage reclaim takes a minimum 40 mins is simply wrong.

I always get mine in much less.

And a merry Christmas to you as well !!

MDIS

23rd Dec 2006, 18:18

Deedave

The 40 mins is obviously a failsafe before which you can't complain. Probably an ISO 9002 target.

If, and its a big if, MSE gets going with a limited route network, give it a chance
Have a great Xmas.

Mdis

catflaps

24th Dec 2006, 07:51

Herene Bay makes the following claim wrt EUjet:

"The upside was that I think most peple got there money back"

Can you substantiate this claim? I'm assuming you are talking about the ones who had booked tickets but hadn't flown. Don't forget to include in your calculations the thousands who were abroad on the day EUjet collapsed. I know many who had to pay other airlines to bring them back to Gatwick, and then had to pay a lot of money to get back to Manston to retrieve their vehicles. They didn't get a penny and they will be most upset to read your flippant remarks. Read the CAA report into the collapse. It isn't complimentary. And it's quite clear that the collapse has damaged Manston's credibility.

niknak

24th Dec 2006, 14:42

MSE were asked to handle around 3000 pax from B.A yesterday, but refused due to not having enough fuel to service the diverts without jeopardising MK and Egypt.
Sad really because they could have a made a few quid out of it, but it highlights the restrictions of using MSE at the moment and the need for a new B.F.I

Actually it highlights the complete ineptness of those running Manston, to have just enough fuel/handling facilitie to service the few flights per day they already have, with no contingency to provide for other potential customers is utter commercial madness.
If, as has been posted, Infratrail have been turning away commercial operators because the sirport infrastructure isn't quite up to scratch is not only foolhardy in the extreme, but shows the complete ineptness of the Airport Operator.
Airlines nominate diversion airfields to cater for just such eventualities.

At the present rate, Manston is doomed and, taking a hard nosed commercial view of the hopeless way it is being run, it is destined for housing and industrial estate use.

MDIS

26th Dec 2006, 09:01

Niknak

I cant believe that you are suggesting that MSE should hold enough fuel in stock to service 20 737’s just in case the London airports suffer weather problems for 3 days.

I am really glad Infratil are in charge of the finances at MSE and not you.

Mdis

Dont tell um pike

26th Dec 2006, 12:10

Not to mention the extra security , loaders , check in , atc , etc , etc

T:mad: T

DTUP

Expressflight

26th Dec 2006, 13:01

Southend seemed to manage very well last Thursday when they reportedly received over 60 additional inbounds. They're not exactly geared up for that sort of influx either and certainly wouldn't have been expecting it.
Surely MSE holds reasonable fuel stocks to cater for possible supply disruptions. If I was still an Ops Director I would think pretty poorly of an airfield that only had sufficient for its planned traffic and rebuffed my approaches on that basis. Perhaps that story isn't completely accurate and anyway, didn't MSE open up especially early one day a month or so ago in anticipation of diversions from the London area airports?

niknak

26th Dec 2006, 22:29

Well said Expressflight.

It is clear that MDIS and DTUP have no idea when it comes to running airports or the airline industry at all.

Neither, on the face of it, if what has been posted is correct, do the operators and management of Manston.

tilewood

26th Dec 2006, 23:19

niknak

Perhaps you have just had that 'Eureka' moment!! Manston is valuable
real estate, but regrettably not much of a commercial prospect as a
viable airport.
Infratil are not stupid, they know a good investment when they see it,
all that area in England's south east is a valuable land bank. It can generate
far more money from industrial and residential development than the odd
MK 747 twice a week ever could.

Dont tell um pike

27th Dec 2006, 07:23

Niknak

i cant say i care for your tone , i know exactly why Manston is restricted at the moment and you don't , keep making stuff up if you like but theres no need to include me.

T:mad: T

DTUP

snarfel

27th Dec 2006, 12:25

New boost for KIA, according to http://www.kentnews.co.uk/kent-news/New-boost-for-Kent-International-Airport-newsinkent2383.aspx.

Jes

27th Dec 2006, 18:36

Manston cargo is currently running at 36,000 tonnes per annum. That puts it at no 8 in the UK. Given the recent rapid growth, which is not all related to Christmas, and the prospect of DAS Air restarting services, I shall not be surprised to see it at no 6 in the UK by April, as Belfast and Edinburgh are only slightly in front.

This is very heartening, given that the bulk of the infrastructure improvements have yet to come on line. I believe Infratil are saying they are a year ahead of where they expected to be.

niknak

27th Dec 2006, 23:36

OK, let's spell it out very slowly....

Passengers earn the major revenue for any airport, if you study the statistics for all the UK airports you will note that freight is a useful additional, but not sole source of income to any - except Manston.
Assuming that the price per kilo for freight, charged by Manston, is much the same but probably a bit less than other UK South East Airport operators, then I cannot see how they will ever make a profit or commercially viable return.
The potential for passengers at Manston is extremely limited due to the catchment area being catered for more than adequately by other London Airports.
Manston failed first time around for precisely these reasons, at least this time the owners have the foresight to be able to sit back on their investment before they declare it unviable for present use and get planning permission for thousands of home.

I hope that you can come back to me in two years time and prove me wrong, but I suspect that you'll be too busy working on the housing development at Manston Way, Airport Close and Couldhavebeen Cresent.

Wellington Bomber

28th Dec 2006, 10:18

If Manston received as many aeroplanes as quotes on pprune it would be one of the busiest airports in the country!

Unfortunately it does not, never will and there are far too many small airports in the south too close to each other.

What should happen like most other 1st world countries is make a brand new airport big enough with plenty of access. A good site would be after the olympics. Knock all of the olympic village down and build an airport on it

MDIS

29th Dec 2006, 09:00

Niknak

The catchment area nonsense has been answered so many times, but once more especially for you. Eujet were on target to carry 400,000 passngers in year 1 of operation. Before anyone pipes up and says that the seats were given away, it still doesn't deny the fact that these people were willing to travel to MSE to fly. Some from South London.

The catchment area debate is only relevent for outbound pax. The inbound catchment area depends on the route network.

Mdis

Jes

29th Dec 2006, 10:03

Airnuts gave us interesting links (I don't know why the mods haven't zapped them as advertising), although I don't think MSE is 90 miles from London.

What made me laugh on the Lydd thread was his reference to the explosive called Lyddite.

As serious posters will know, there is a glut of experts (definition - an ex is a has-been; a spurt is a drip under pressure) polluting this thread with doom and gloom. I don't bother to reply to them, as most have an anti-Manston agenda, the basis of which they will never reveal, but they're pretty easy to identify. Others sit at home pontificating on all manner of threads, showing everyone how clever they think they are - just look at the number of posts they've made, and if you can stomach smugness read some of their old ones.

Now, in addition to the MAGgot and the NIMBY, we have the Lyddite, and it has been seen recently on this thread. Its speciality is the promotion of Lydd against Manston.

Very best wishes for 2007 to all Manston supporters, and let's look forward to more investment, airlines and employment. Finally, could we please have RUMOURS, even news, and no more of the tosh we've had to endure in 2006.

blazing_air

29th Dec 2006, 13:11

Jes

Well said Jes - Happy New Year
Here's one for you...
British Mediteranean - Freight Company with DC 10's i believe.
Are looking to use MSE in the New Year - one flight a day to start with...

EGMH

29th Dec 2006, 13:40

Indeed I've heard that BMed paid a visit to MSE recently. Unsure who's 10's they'll be using if they do start services. Avient maybe?

airhumberside

29th Dec 2006, 18:18

I take it this BMed is not the same one as the BA franchise?

catflaps

31st Dec 2006, 10:44

Jes posts the following:

"As serious posters will know, there is a glut of experts (definition - an ex is a has-been; a spurt is a drip under pressure) polluting this thread with doom and gloom. I don't bother to reply to them, as most have an anti-Manston agenda, the basis of which they will never reveal, but they're pretty easy to identify."

I'm afraid I have to refute this rubbish. You refer to "serious posters." By this you appear to mean anyone who believes that Manston is a guaranteed success. I doubt there are any "serious" posters who believe any such thing.

You then go on to cast baseless aspersions about the motives of those who don't share your rose-tinted view of things. I could easily cast similar aspersions about you and your chums. I could easily suggest that you have a financial interest in the success of Manston and are using the internet in an attempt to try to promote the airport. Whilst you could howl in protest, I could produce substantive evidence that this has been done before, and has been done in relation to Manston.

I would suggest that everyone avoids speculating about the motives of other people. In fact, I would go as far as to say your posting breaches the posting guidelines, because it is simply an attempt to rubbish other people's views, without presenting any information.

Finally, I would like to point out that, what you call the doom and gloom brigade, has a good track record. The doom and gloom brigade predicted the collapse of EUjet. Perhaps, this time around, you should start taking their views seriously, and stop living in La-la land.

Your final contribution is to wish a happy 2007 to all Manston supporters. I'm not sure how many people who contribute to this thread would wish to be included in your gang. Personally, I wish a happy 2007 to everyone, whatever their view of Manston.

niknak

31st Dec 2006, 16:18

It doesn't take a genious to see that the Councillers (ie ratepayers) of Thanet and the area, are going to be left with a very simple choice;
Do you want to support a loss making venture, (Manston Airport), pour £1000Ks into something that will never, ever be a success. Or do you want your local taxes to go into developing local industry which is significantly more viable whilst Infratrail sell off the airport for much needed housing and industrial development, thereby creating more income for the local economy in one year than the airport ever could in ten?

Der...:rolleyes: no brainer methinks......

MDIS

31st Dec 2006, 16:21

Berrs003

I have to disagree with you. This isn’t a forum to promote Manston but to discuss the positives and negatives.

[Catflaps

For the last (this year) the sensible posters are saying that EUjet did not fail, the Parent Company failed, and, if you want documentary proof, please let me know and I will post you the Grant Thornton correspondence. ( it will cost you a few quid in photocopying and postage but you are more than welcome)

When we ask for something positive to be posted we don’t mean good news but a balanced view

You say in your last post to Jes that all his posts just rubbish any other comments which is simply not true, all you seem able to produce is your personal view without any substance whatsoever. I would hazard a guess that you have never worked in aviation and know nothing of the industry at all. The dead giveaway was when you suggested that MSE should take the 3000 BA pax with open arms, obviously knowing nothing of the back up services required to handle such a short term influx! You have posted no hard facts about the airport and probably never will

To all

There are some posters who have been described as “serious posters” but I tend to want to communicate with sensible posters i.e. those who hold a balanced view and a middle ground

Just as in politics there are the far right and the far left. On this forum we have the “seriously against” and the “seriously for” the success of the airport, who should be in the most ignored

I happen to believe that Infratil are doing a good job and are committed to making the site a success as an airport but having said that I may be proved wrong, we will have to see

Happy New Year to ALL

Dont tell um pike

31st Dec 2006, 16:38

Niknak

"It doesn't take a genious" ? :D cracking

You've cheered me right up thanks

DTUP

MDIS

31st Dec 2006, 16:42

Niknak

Showing true colours again!

The councillors only use other peoples money not their own!!
Why do the ratepayers have to support the airport financially? It is owned by a very successful company with strong financial backing

You are obviously a very clever person as you seem able to talk out of your a:mad: se while sitting on it.

Mdis

niknak

31st Dec 2006, 16:47

MDIS

I fail to see, that otherwise commendable optomism, what will pay the bills at Manston.
Infratrail are, after all that has been said and done, no different from anyone else seeking a financial return on their investment.
Their investment in both Lubeck and Manston has proved to be entirely questionable, but as I am not one of their funding partners I am not too concerned.
Waht I would say is that they, in both cases, have invested heavily in huge infrastructures which have revealed no return now, in the near or distant future.

Again, in both cases, Manston and Lubeck present a good opportunity for return as domestic and Industrial development.

Well done Infatrail, a shame those of you who support the naievity of airport development at both sites couldnt see it coming....

MDIS

31st Dec 2006, 17:31

Niknak
I would like to think that I offer a neutral view. I, like you am not an investor of Infratil but they seem to have done a good job at PIK and Wellington. Perhaps you will be proved correct that they are diversifying into development of disused airports, but I would question why they are spending so much money at Manston in terms of business development salaries, new taxiway lighting, new de icing equipment and a replacement radar system. If they are as you say just treading water for a few years why waste the money?

I do agree that they have shareholders who will eventually say "its not making money get shot of it" and that may be the end of Manston as an airport.

I do believe that there is a future for MSE as a regional airport and contrary to the beliefs of some on this forum EUjet proved it.

Planestations finances were precarious at best whereas Infratil have the financial backing to stay for the long term, they have just bought out another utilities comapny in NZ for $300Mill. I fail to see why they would ask the good people of Thanet for a mere £100k.

MDIS

PS a good website to look at www.whingeinthanet.co.uk (http://www.whingeinthanet.co.uk)

Mdis

airmemphis

1st Jan 2007, 13:22

Do MK Airlines operate cargo flights from Manston to Cairo (Egypt)?

EGMH

1st Jan 2007, 14:46

No but most of the inbound MK's do route via Cairo, although Egypt Air Cargo do take freight to Cairo.

airmemphis

1st Jan 2007, 16:12

No but most of the inbound MK's do route via Cairo, although Egypt Air Cargo do take freight to Cairo.

IIRC MK Airlines seem to have flights from Manston, Ostend and Hahn to Nairobi all with a stop in Cairo. So are you saying these are techincal stops rather than commercial ones?

Today there was a flight (7G102) that departed CAI at around 13:30 for Manston. I assume all are with B742Fs, correct?

And by that last comment do you mean Egypt Air Cargo operate Manston flights? Ad-hocs or scheduled?

EGMH

1st Jan 2007, 16:18

All MK flights are B742F. I assume the Cairo stop is to up-load cargo, although I'm not 100% sure?
In the run up to Xmas Egypt air cargo were operating 3 cargo flight per week. Some routing onto Hahn whilest others took loads to Cairo.

Manston Airport

1st Jan 2007, 17:06

I like reading about Manston news what planes are landing and going ,Its furture cargo airlines and passager airline that might be coming into MSE. I like this thread as its just about Manston but there are a few people who cant shut the :mad: up.Until Manston Fails then you can say your stuff but as its not just stay silent :ok: MK Got rid off there DC-8 2 years ago i think now not sure.

Their fleet:
B747-2R7(FSCD) 9G-MKL
B747-2B5B(SF) 9G-MKM
B747-245(FSCD) 9G-MKP
B747-2B5(FSCD) 9G-MKR
B747-2B5(FSCD) 9G-MKS
B747-249(FSCD)
9G-MKU Stored at Rome (FCO)
B747-2S4F(SCD) G-MKAA

James

berrs003

1st Jan 2007, 20:07

EGMH

It appears Egypt cargo have stopped recently. I havent seen any A300's recently. The three flights has that always been the case or have they stepped it up a gear?
Do Mk operate daily now?

HINT: No sarcastic comments from ANTI-Manstons :p

catflaps

2nd Jan 2007, 08:54

Manston Airport posts the following:

"I like this thread as its just about Manston but there are a few people who cant shut the :mad: up.Until Manston Fails then you can say your stuff but as its not just stay silent"

Again, I can't see how this complies with the posting guidelines. To me it appears to be a crude attempt to censor the content of the board by intimidating anyone who thinks that the current operation at Manston is a pig in a poke. I should point out that Manston HAS failed (on more than one occasion) and so, I see no reason why I shouldn't mention this inconvenient truth.

I should also remind everyone that this is exactly the same tactic that was used previously to try to prevent posters from warning of the imminent collapse of EUjet. As things stand Masnton must be losing money hand over fist. Unless things get significantly busier this won't be allowed to continue.

P.S. Anyone know what's happened to Phil Vann? PM with answer please.

Evileyes

3rd Jan 2007, 13:23

The Mods find it odd that we have to spend such a disproprtionate amount of our time moderating the childish, schoolboy posts on this thread. This thread exists neither to specifically promote nor denegrate the airport but to discuss it.

From this point on, posts which imply some sort of cult ownership of the topic such as: "Until Manston Fails then you can say your stuff but as its not just stay silent" stand a great risk of being deleted in their entirety and the poster blocked from this forum. Nobody who can make their case repectfully is going to be muzzled here.

Personal attacks will get you booted.

The next step will be we close it entirely until the Manston posters have had some time to grow up and mature.

To be clear, if you disagree with the point of view of another poster or group of posters then make your point(s) with respect and move on. Nobody has more "right" to this thread than others.

Cheers,
The Mods

blazing_air

4th Jan 2007, 11:38

Thank you for your comments mods, i guess we all need to step back a bit and grow up.
To answer a previous question:
Phil Vann is no longer the GM at MSE.
Tom Wilson has stepped in as a temporary replacement, who i believe originated from Prestwick, then went onto Luebeck as GM.
I suspect that we might see a new GM in the months to come, but that decision is with senior management.

And yes, Manston is losing money, it was, i thought common knowledge and Infratil certainly knew when they bought the Airport, how much was being lost, but have budgeted for this loss and do expect to turn it around.
At least that is what they said when they became new owners and due to the spend so far and the efforts from the management team, i have no reason to dis-believe them.

MDIS

4th Jan 2007, 16:53

Yes well said Blazing Air. We all get a bit heated sometimes. Perhaps we should all show the Mods that we can be grown ups and self moderate the thread.

I understand that T W is only going to be atemporary replacement.

I also agree with you that at the outset Infratil stated their outline budget and from memory it included a loss provision for 2 or 3 years.

I received an email update from Lydd today which was very interesting. At the risk of it being wiped by the mods as advertising if anyone wants a copy please send me a pm.

I have to say that the Lydd Airport website is far more positive than MSE and the emailed update sort of rubs MSE's nose in the London Airports diversion subject.

Regards

Mdis

catflaps

4th Jan 2007, 19:16

"At least that is what they said when they became new owners and due to the spend so far and the efforts from the management team, i have no reason to dis-believe them."

The problem with hanging your hat on what Infratil have said is that they have said precious little. There seems to be general agreement that they originally anticipated losing money at Manston for somewhere between two and three years. What capital expenditure was built into this forecast ,we can only guess at. Personally, I can see little sign of major investment at the airport. If they are spending millions it's all behind the scenes.

However, the other side of the balance sheet is a bit easier to talk about. Apart from a few moth-eaten freight flights, they have attracted little new business to the airport. And whilst every new flight is greeted with a fanfare, the cancelled services just slide away without mention. Those who are in the business know only too well that volume is important. Unlike Heathrow, Manston can't rely on a vast post check-in mall to subsidise its operation. The money they make will have to come from landing fees, loading/unloading fees and fuel sales.

If Manston was going to get significantly busier next Summer they'd have to be selling tickets now. People are booking their Summer hols. now, and, if you haven't advertized yet you're missing the boat. My impression is that they've missed the boat for a second Summer. With aggressive competition from Lydd now on the cards for the Summer of 2008, the commercial environment is changing.

All of this leads me to my conclusion that things are NOT going according to plan. Fair enough; they planned to lose money for two or three years. I won't disagree. But I can't believe that they planned to be so unsuccessful in attracting new business. My assumption is that they are losing more money than they expected to. The only way this will turn around is if they attract some volume business. The clock is ticking and, by the end of this Summer they will be two years into the project. Whilst they may well have planned to lose money, they may well re-evaluate the situation in the light of experience.

MDIS

4th Jan 2007, 19:58

Catflaps

Can you elaborate on the "cancelled flights" I can only assume that you mean Esperia. I tried to contact Esperia, even had a meeting arr nged. They forgot to turn up! The whole thing was a joke and Infratil announced nothing therefore cancelled nothing. Please dont confuse the local press with the owners.

I would suggest that your favourite cattle market (LHR) cant rely on post check in revenue any more because you cant buy anything whilst queuing to check in or whilst queuing at security. Unless you want to get there 4 hours prior to departure.

I cant understand why you continue to laud the benefits of LHR and LGW when they are totally different animals to MSE and Lydd and in my humble opinion they are places to be avoided unless absolutely necessary. Lydd is obviously better for you as the aircraft are far away from Thanet. ( Mods not a personal attack just fact)

I agree with your comments re Lydd, they have an agressive website and what seems to be a coherent business plan. Did you know that their marketing manager used to hold the same position at EUjet?

PS did you see the email update from Lydd? Very impressive!

Mdis

deedave

5th Jan 2007, 14:03

Dear Mods.

Thank you for your comments.

Personally, I would request that you consider closing this forum to be a last resort.

I have come to believe there are some individuals with a vested interest in MSE trying to engineer such an occurence - hence the personal attacks etc.

The rest of us are very grateful for an opportunity to discuss the truth about this airport.

Moving on -

Re - LHR and LGW.
These aiports have come in for a good deal of criticism in many Manston discussions, much of it unfounded.

I use LHR all the time.

Yes, it is quite a hike from Thanet, but when you get there what do you get?

Regular flights to everywhere.
Multiple carriers so you can get a later flight if need be.
Reasonable priced flights and facilities.
Great cafes, pubs, shops etc.

Also, outside of holiday peaks, the accusations of long delays are untrue.

Deedave travelling LHR to Europe........

Check-in 5-10 mins (machine and fast bag drop)
Security about 10 mins (but get yer shoes off !!)
Baggage reclaim - sometimes it's waiting for me on the carousel!! - but usually about 10 mins.

Despite it's shortcomings, LHR is one of the most outstanding transport centres on the planet and we should be proud of it

All of this notwithstanding, as a local I would love to see MSE offering me all the flights I require, but sadly this is impossible.

MDIS

5th Jan 2007, 14:58

Regular flights to everywhere.Multiple carriers so you can get a later flight if need be.Reasonable priced flights and facilities.Great cafes, pubs, shops etc"Regular flights to everywhere, yes of course they have there are 5 terminalsMultiple carriers Yes of course its the busiest airport in the worldRasonable priced flights, yes but so have many other airportsGreat Cafes, pubs and shops, yes all very expensive because BAA take a huge commission.But what has this got to do with Manston having a future as a regional airport?Southampton is very successful and it doesnt have multiple daily flights to every location and you can say the same for Bournemouth, London City, Norwich, etcManston will never offer as many flights as the big London airports but it will offer some flights that some people in the South East want, up to 500,000 to start with.Mdis

tilewood

5th Jan 2007, 18:53

I have been dipping in and out of the Manston thread for the last few years,
just for amusement.

Each time I come back in, it is the same sterile,circular discussion.

Just like religion everything is based on hope and faith, nothing is proven, and anyone who doesn't believe is ridiculed as a heretic and stoned from the temple.

But as the old saying goes: ' Where there is life, there is hope!'

I would sincerely like to see Manston succeed, and to provide employment
and prospects to an economic backwater.

This forum is read around the world, regrettably the level of this debate has
done nothing to enhance the airport's reputation.

Jes

5th Jan 2007, 20:19

I feel I must go off at some length.

The Mods have taken action against a couple of teenage scribblers: if you scan through old messages you'll see they've irritated me many times. Perhaps I can say, in their favour, that the internet was unheard of when I was their age; my youthful outbursts at Gatwick went unnoticed by industry stalwarts.

I don't rant at other posters, but I like to focus on this thread being about rumours relating to Manston. I happen to live in Thanet, and am a director of three companies involved in aviation and passenger transport, a lifelong aviation enthusiast, and a supporter of economic regeneration in East Kent.

I could bang on about Southend, another airport with problems, but I don't. Whilst I see the investment in Lydd as a potential threat to the existing infrastructure at Manston, I'm not going to attack Lydd.

Economic success is so often related to the influence of individuals. I know that other posters have in-depth knowledge of the history of Planestation and EUjet. I have had frank discussions with many of the leading players of that period. I remember questioning the viability of the Copenhagen route during a conversation with a PS director before it started; he shared my belief that it was doomed.

I could go on for hours about the crazy decisions taken by individuals in charge: some examples

the non-building of hangars for both MK and Atlanta
the driving away of MK and freight in general
the acceptance of EI-DFZ (20% of the fleet was a rogue)
the market research on the Manchester route, which consisted of looking at the clothes worn by passengers; as they were casual they were deemed to be leisure travellers, so the service was cut to one a day

It's not correct to say there is not a market for Manston, and that's why I don't respond to doomsayers. I have to fly to Dublin 8 times a year, and having tired of the Ryanair scramble at Gatwick, have moved up to £80 returns from LHR with Aer Lingus, with that priceless feature, advance seat allocation. The snag with this route is the stacking each time I return to LHR and the stress of getting to Victoria for the Thanet train. There are routes from Manston that are bankers; the cognoscenti know which they are, and they will run: we might have to wait till 2008.

The other tired old mantra is the close it and build houses story. Not really worthy of comment.

I can only hope that Infratil have the stamina and leaders to see it through. One individual has been removed already, so we should see some improvement.

Facts/rumours

Lighting renewal almost finished
Interim radar ready soon, and a re-conditioned one will be erected later on a 30m pole on the northern grass
additional freight apron to be built soon (planning permission in place)
DAS have plans to expand (I know more but can't say)
BMed story looks good

I could mention some possible problems, but shan't.

MDIS

5th Jan 2007, 22:04

What a great post.

I totally agree, mistakes have been made and will continue to be made but I still believe MSE has a future as a regional airport and as you you we may have to wait until 2008.

MDIS

Jes

6th Jan 2007, 09:13

"This is all good news for BMED, after a hard year from rising fuel costs and the Beirut closure.

We have been told to expect a few changes, perhaps adding cargo a/c to the fleet and more new routes to SE Asia."

Ummmm

niknak

6th Jan 2007, 17:36

The only way Manston will ever make money is the same way that any other regional airport makes money - by having a large throughput of passengers using terminal franchises.

The BAA have been using this concept for around 20 years now, the rest of the UK airports realised as soon as the low cost airline model started that the days of making money from passenger taxes were long gone.
So, that leaves Manston, almost a freight only operation in 2005, 2006 and 2007, with very little prospect of ever attracting any low cost operators at all.

Manston never has and never will be a viable proposition as an airport, although as I've said in previous posts, congrat's to the current investors who have seen the opportunity to buy an airport which will be an extremely profitable building site.

catflaps

7th Jan 2007, 09:17

fj1

7th Jan 2007, 12:03

Jes posted the following:
"DAS has plans to expand.....but they will never come to fruition.
That why its called a rummour network
DAS(ANA) are still flying with other fames, if unbanned they will expand there fleet again.
There will always be a need for 'us' to eat and buy flowers for mothers day. And as 'we' don't want to spend much, whoever might take over won't be flying into LHR.

MDIS

7th Jan 2007, 12:31

As I keep saying Southampton started with less than 200,000 passengers, BAA built a new terminal and they now have 1.8million passengers. They are now applying to build a second terminal. Southampton does have a great benefit that Manston doesnt have and thats a Parkway station which offers a fast service into London, maybe this will come who knows?

Manston started with EUjet only and attracted 400,000 passengers! I admit mistakes were made but Infratil have experience of running airports whereas Planestation didn't.

Lydd may well beat Manston to it but as I have said before whichever becomes a success it will be good for East Kent.

Mdis

MDIS

7th Jan 2007, 13:01

There was a lot of engine maintenance taking place on Friday

Mothballing or readying for action?

This is a genuine question with no slant either way.

Mdis

Xavier Dosh

7th Jan 2007, 13:16

Hello all,

I have been keeping a close eye on the Manston Thread for sometime now and always read with interest the different views put forward. I worked at Manston prior to the RAF moving out and during the first few years of Wiggins. I have kept in touch with the place over the last few years and am keen to see the airport do well.

I don’t want offend anybody and I’m not seeking to stifle peoples optimistic views on here by posting negative ones. However, I do feel the urge to add my own opinion…

Manston / Thanet has 3 problems – Location, Location and Location

Thanet is closer to France than it is to London and is surrounded on 3 sides by water. This leaves only one route in and one route out. Manston is always going to be limited by the amount of people who can access the airfield. Someone else has said how bad the roads are and it’s true! The rail links are not much better, Ramsgate to Victoria is approximately 70 miles by train and it takes 2hr10. Get on at Ramsgate and you’ve stopped five times before you get to Herne Bay.

I digress...

I think that it's pretty straight forward. To stay in any business we must assume that you have to make a profit or at least breakeven. Now I don't know what the fixed costs are to run MSE for a year (I would love to know how much it costs just to open for business every day - even before you have had your first movement of the day) but the amount aircraft operating in and out of MSE can't be making the airport any money. The airfield is huge and it needs far more money coming in.

So if there aren't enough movements generating Landing & Handling Fees etc - what about Rent? I can't imagine that there are enough Tenants paying Rent to trade at MSE either. I can only think of TG Aviation, Enterprise Car Hire and Starbucks... (I admit that's a cynical view and there are genuinely more than those three - but there isn't an impressive portfolio)

Even if an airline or engineering company did move to MSE – who’s going to work for them? Who are they going to employ? There are three very good schools in the area that produce good students, Chatham / Clarenden House & Dane Court. (I didn’t go to any of those three) Most people with an education are leaving school and going to University and then leaving the area. There are a large number of people in Thanet who are either, a Pensioner, a Pregnant Teenager, on the dole, on benefit, claiming asylum or on a suspended sentence – which leaves the rest of the locals to work and pay for the rest!

Unemployment is high and even if you do get a job, wages are low.

Wander in to TG Aviation on a nice day – it’s hardly bursting at the seems with Students and it’s one of the nicest, friendliest, well presented flying schools in the country…

Manston needs to down size, reduce its costs and be realistic. If it was 50% or even better 25% of its current size it would take the pressure off the owners.

That huge airfield, sits empty, gathering dust, but the taxiways, the grass, aprons the fencing, the lighting etc all still need to be maintained and still cost money.

Downsize and take a bit of weight of the Infratil corporate bladder!

I wish it all the very best of luck – really I do!! – but we have seen it all before!

XD

MDIS

7th Jan 2007, 16:20

The majority of passengers who will use Manston are not interested in its proximity to London. They want to get to the airport fly somewhere eg Manchester, Dublin, Edinburgh, Amsterdam and then return to Manston. If people from Kent want to go to London they will either drive or take the train. The rail link to London is poor at best so Manston should never be marketed as London. Even RYA would struggle with that one.

Do not assume that airlines who use Manston need to be based there. Therefore the crews will be based elsewhere. There didnt seem to be too much trouble in recruiting staff when Eujet were operating. Not too many of them fell into the categories as suggested.

Manston may be surrounded on 3 sides by water but as I keep having to remind everyone 400,000 passengers managed to get in and out using one road!!

The point about income is valid and with the current traffic I am sure the owners are in a loss situation but they seem able to absorb this, at least in the short to medium term.

Just to clarify the information on tenants is a little out of date. Enterprise car hire have departed and the coffee shop is not a starbucks. Brockmans travel agency is to begin operations this month from the terminal. DAS are using the old Jet Support Facility and Air Atlanta have a line maintenance facility and there are others.

Mdis

catflaps

7th Jan 2007, 19:09

"I don't know what the fixed costs are to run MSE for a year (I would love to know how much it costs just to open for business every day"

I have seen a letter sent by the former MP for Thanet South, Jonathan Aitken to one of his constituents, in 1995. In that letter, he wasn't positive about the prospects of commercialization of Manston. He cited the cost of running the airfield at £7million per year. Presumably, the cost today could be almost double that; and that's before you start spending on capital projects. However, I'm guessing they've saved a bit by using sheep to graze the Northern Grass instead of cutting it.

If you get an average £200 for a landing fee, I estimate that you need 70,000 landings a year to break even (that's about 210 per day). Does anyone know how much MK pay for landing one of their 747's.

Xavier Dosh

7th Jan 2007, 19:12

MDIS,

I'm not someone who is anti-manston, honestly!

I used to attend the airport meetings when Wiggins took ownership post the RAF departure. I used to become increasingly frustrated listening to all the local residents complaining about the possible noise and OOH movements etc etc - I would love to see Manston do really well.

However, we've all been having the same old arguments and the same debates for the last 20 - 25 years and things never seem to progress.

I appreciate what you're saying about the amount of people who live within 'X' journey of the airport and 'X' amount of people flew from there during EU Jets period of operation - but the fact is - nothing is ever going to change. Manston is never going to develop into a real airport with Pax / Freight operators coming in and out all day everyday. If it was - this thread would not be running.

Companies come to Manston and companies go. A business cannot rely on the people of Thanet to keep it in business and when you start to look further afield to Medway and Tonbridge etc, Pax would rather drive to Gatwick because it's easier and it has more to offer than an expensive car park, a coffee shop and Brockmans Travel.

Time will tell and I hope I'm wrong, but what are Infratil going to do that hasn't been done already to bring the aircraft owners/operators, passengers and freight to Manston?

Xavier Dosh

7th Jan 2007, 19:17

Just a quick question..

400,000 passengers?

When was that?

MDIS

7th Jan 2007, 19:56

I'm not say that you are anti Manston , I'm just trying to say that not everyone wants or needs to go to London.

The previous owners were egotitstcal, ill informed speculators who collapsed in a big way with other peoples money.

400,000 pax is what Eujet were on target to carry in their first full year.

If I needed to go to a destination that Manston served I would rather fly from MSE than antwhere else provided that the times suited me, if not I would go from LGW, LHR, LCY or STN
Mdis

MDIS

7th Jan 2007, 20:01

On April 10 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_10), 1995 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995), The Guardian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian) carried a front-page report on Aitken's dealings with leading Saudis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudis). The story was the result of a long investigation carried out by journalists from the newspaper and from Granada TV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granada_TV)'s World In Action (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_In_Action) programme. By 5 o'clock that evening, Aitken had called a press conference at the Conservative Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_%28UK%29) offices in Smith Square (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_Square), London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London), denouncing the reports and demanding that the World In Action programme, due to be screened three hours later, withdraw them.
During this press conference, Aitken made his notorious speech: "If it falls to me to start a fight to cut out the cancer of bent and twisted journalism in our country with the simple sword of truth and the trusty shield of British fair play, so be it. I am ready for the fight. The fight against falsehood and those who peddle it. My fight begins today. Thank you and good afternoon."

Aitken was charged with perjury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perjury) and perverting the course of justice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverting_the_course_of_justice), and in 1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999) was jailed for 18 months, of which he served seven. During the trial, his wife Lolicia, who later left him, was called as a witness to sign a supportive affidavit to the effect that she had paid his Paris hotel bill, but did not appear. In the end, with the case already in court, investigative work by Guardian reporters into Swiss hotel British Airways records showed that neither Victoria nor Lolicia had been in Paris at the time in question.
Aitken was unable to cover the legal costs of his trial and was declared bankrupt. As part of the bankruptcy, his trustees settled legal actions against the magazine Private Eye (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_Eye), over the various claims it had made that Aitken was a "serial liar". He also became one of the few people to resign from the Privy Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privy_Council_of_the_United_Kingdom)

£7 Million a year. Only if you were paying his travel costs.

Mdis

Herne Bay

8th Jan 2007, 08:10

What on earth has this got to do with Manston ?
I joined this forum to find out about news and rumours about the Airport, we just have the same stuff, week after week.
I notice that if use a serch engine and ask for manston news your find a lot of these posts on ppunne.
Picked up one a few weeks ago that houses were going to built on the site on yahoo. I am sure that some forum members have a agenda to put the airport down.
I am leaving this forum, my last post. its pointless because if any one posts good news, it's put down at once with doom and gloom, which just causes bad feeling and heated words being left, upsetting the mods.
It says on the Tin rumour network not the case.
goodbye

MDIS

8th Jan 2007, 08:18

I was trying to point out that information being posted from 1995 by someone who is a convicted liar has absolutely no relevence to the current situation at MSE.

Mdis

Xavier Dosh

8th Jan 2007, 09:06

Oh dear!

I'm sorry if I have caused people to go off subject slightly - I have to say the 'Aitken bit' lost me too!

I think most people realise that the guy was a numpty - but Catflaps was only quoting a figure in response to my comments.

I'm not too sure where you 400,000 from - but simple maths would tell me that was very very optimistic.

You say that 400,000 people got ot Manston by one road? Do you mean 400,000? or do you mean 200,000? That would see a turnover of 400,000!

Obviously 400,000 or 200,000 or whatever it really was - was not enough, otherwise they would still be trading!

You can keep quoting numbers and you can keep quoting weird and wonderful things about JA - but the fact is - nobody is making any money at Manston. Apart from the Merlin Cafe - they seem to do a good trade regardless!

Feel free to email me or post a message when I'm proved wrong!!!

I genuinely hope that I am wrong and I sincerely hope that the airport becomes a thriving business and employes lots of local people...

XD

Andy_S

8th Jan 2007, 10:19

I'm not too sure where you 400,000 from - but simple maths would tell me that was very very optimistic.

You say that 400,000 people got ot Manston by one road? Do you mean 400,000? or do you mean 200,000? That would see a turnover of 400,000!

I think the figure of 400,000 relates to passengers carried by EUjet - i.e. approx. 200,000 out and 200,000 back. And it's a projection, based on about 9 months operation, presumably with some allowance for the fact that the remaining 3 months would have been just about their busiest.

Obviously 400,000 or 200,000 or whatever it really was - was not enough, otherwise they would still be trading!

That's an over simplification. EUjet could hypothetically have flown to more destinations, more often, and the passenger numbers would have increased - but so would their losses. The problem wasn't just the passenger numbers - it was that the wrong aircraft were flying to the wrong places with the wrong frequency, often less than half full.

MDIS

8th Jan 2007, 10:34

Sorry,

When the Aitken name was mentioned I just remembered something about him being prosecuted and found the info on Wikipedia. I was trying to point out that the guy couldnt be trusted, therefore his £7Million claim may well have been pie in the sky. Additionally this was 10 years ago and under different ownership. Once again apologies for going off at a tangent.

I think Infratil quoted some annual running costs when they took over but I cant find them, it may have been at a presentation I attended.

If it is double the 7Mill then that equates to £38k per day which does seem a tad high.

Found some details on Rateable values

Terminal £20,000
DAS Cargo Workshop £117,000
Airport £900,000

Other buildings are seperately rated.

UBR is 44.4p so the airport rates payable is £400,000

Just to pay the rates and assuming £200 is a an average landing fee 5.5 landings per day needed to cover it.

Mdis

Xavier Dosh

8th Jan 2007, 13:27

Andy S - good post!

So, out of interest

What would be the right aircraft?

The right routes?

The right frequency?

How profitbale would it be for the operator?

How profitable would it be for the airport?

MDIS - Surely 'Pie in the sky' would just about cover the majority of figures and projections quoted by KIA / Wiggins / PlaneStation over the years?

Everybody knows that Manston exists (operator wise). It's been around for years - and nobody is interested because it's no good for what airlines, operators, aircraft owners or engineering facilities want!

I am now and have been for sometime, a customer of Manston. Without taking anything away from the Ops / Ground Crew - they are NOT always very customer friendly. Their hours can be restrictive - they're not flexible - ATC hold themselves in quite high regard and often welcome your enquiry with a negative response.

It sounds petty, I know - but this 'no can do' attitude that often greets Operators is not a positive.

I really can't understand why so many people (mainly locals) get so excited about the prospects that Manston has.

Everyone in the industry gave EuJet 6months, 8months a year max! And they were right!

The airport is quite literally on the road to nowhere!

Andy_S

8th Jan 2007, 15:14

Andy S - good post!

So, out of interest

What would be the right aircraft?

The right routes?

The right frequency?

How profitbale would it be for the operator?

How profitable would it be for the airport?

Xavier Dosh,

If I was able to answer your question in detail, I would quit my job and go run an airline.....

The point I was trying to make was that commercial viability and passenger numbers are not the same thing. It would have been easy enough (in theory) for EUjet to significantly increase passenger traffic simply by laying on more planes to more destinations. But unless they could fill those aircraft or get the passengers to pay more for their tickets, it would have been financially counterproductive. So the issue of 400,000 pax "not being enough", as you originally put it, rather misses the point.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that all EUjet needed to do to profitably transport 400,000 or more pax was reconsider their fleet and route structure. If anything, they needed to scale down their ambitions and focus on flying a smaller number of passengers, but profitably. But I'm not sure that would have suited the parent company, Planestation.

MDIS

8th Jan 2007, 15:49

Andy

Another sensible post.

At Southampton they started with the following

Aurigny trislanders to Alderney. 9 seaters plus mail and some food supplies
Air UK Fokker F27s to Guernsey and Jersey not sure on seat capacity 50 seats?
British Regional Airways Jetstream J41 29 seats which were replaced with Embraer 50 seat regional jets.
Brymon British Aiways franchise Dash 8

None of these operators were low cost. a seat on the BA Express to EDI or GLA was £300 return but this was 10 years ago.

I dont know are there still people who would pay say £250 return to EDI?

XD I think what we are trying to say is that the Fokker 100 was too big to start with. Maybe someone needs to be looking at 50 seaters atr 42 or Dash 8 with a couple of routes. The best routes for EUjet were EDI, MAN, DUB and AMS.

MDIS

Xavier Dosh

8th Jan 2007, 16:05

AndyS

I see.

So, what is the answer to attracting Pax?

As an example:-

Ramsgate to Gatwick or Stansted is approximately 1hr30 drive, plus some time to park up and get to the Terminal.

Reasonable?

To encourage passengers to use Manston I would assume that we're all agreed that Manston has to offer something the above two don't.

Reasonable?

What can Manston offer that the others can't?

I guess some people on here would say that you can park right next to the terminal.. Big deal!

People are expressing their disappointment at how negative some of the posts are on here concerning Manstons future. I agree with them, but at the same time, REALISTICALY, what's going to change in 2007, 2008 or 2009 that will make any difference
----------------------------------------------------------------------
MDIS

You could be right - but who's going to pay £300 to fly to Manchester from Manston once a day?

Chaps - please do you not think that if there was a real demand for this service out of Manston, an operator would have jumped in once EuJet had departed?

Twitcher

8th Jan 2007, 16:16

Jes posted the following:
"DAS have plans to expand (I know more but can't say)"

This doesn't quite square with the rumours on the DAS thread under Freight Dogs. According to that thread DAS has effectively mothballed most of its aircraft. Could it be that Jes is only partially correct? i.e. DAS has plans to expand.....but they will never come to fruition.

DAS are not just a freight airline. DAS AIR Cargo's hangar at Manston is a CAA approved aircraft maintenance facility. The fact that some of their fleet are being returned from lease and that the other aircraft that are still in the fleet are currently limited to flying outside Europe, does not mean they aren't planning to expand in some way. Oh, and Jes knows exactly what is going on.;)

MDIS

8th Jan 2007, 16:41

MDIS

You could be right - but who's going to pay £300 to fly to Manchester from Manston once a day?

Chaps - please do you not think that if there was a real demand for this service out of Manston, an operator would have jumped in once EuJet had departed?[/quote]

XD you're right, 10 years ago there wasnt really an option so if you wanted to go to Scotland from SOU you paid the money.

I was at an Infratil presentation where it was stated that they were not "going to invite operators to play on their airfield until the infrastructure was in place" could be a sensible policy, could be a cop out to make an excuse for not attracting operators.

MDIS

Andy_S

8th Jan 2007, 17:18

AndyS

I see.

So, what is the answer to attracting Pax?

As an example:-

Ramsgate to Gatwick or Stansted is approximately 1hr30 drive, plus some time to park up and get to the Terminal.

Reasonable?

To encourage passengers to use Manston I would assume that we're all agreed that Manston has to offer something the above two don't.

Reasonable?

What can Manston offer that the others can't?

I guess some people on here would say that you can park right next to the terminal.. Big deal!

So what is the answer to attracting pax? Firstly, I think you need to define the question a bit better......

I think it's fair to say that if the right destinations are offered at the right times and the right fares then pax will be attracted. If the fares are sufficiently competitive, they may even be attracted from outside the area.

The problem is that saying that is absurdly easy, delivering it in a commerciably viable manner is far less so - as EUjet discovered. And since I think you're trying to paint me into a corner where I don't fit, let me say that I've always been of the opinion that when it comes to passenger traffic, MSE is too far from London to be a London Airport, but close enough that London Airports like STN and LGW are a viable alternative.

So no, there's no easy answer.....

catflaps

8th Jan 2007, 17:44

Twitcher

8th Jan 2007, 18:29

82% of EUjet passengers were from Kent and they were left high and dry. I reckon just about everyone in Kent knows at least one person who was stuffed up by EUjet. That sort of experience leaves a bad taste i nthe mouth, and it will take Masnton many years to recover from the reputation it now has.

I suspect that when a well known airline (or two) start flying from Manston people will have no trouble trusting them. They will surely be happier with known and proven airlines knowing they will have better prospects than the new one did.

MDIS

8th Jan 2007, 18:51

In order to attract passengers you need potential passengers to trust you and to believe that they will get a good service from you. Read this:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/436/EUjet_Report.pdf

82% of EUjet passengers were from Kent and they were left high and dry. I reckon just about everyone in Kent knows at least one person who was stuffed up by EUjet. That sort of experience leaves a bad taste i nthe mouth, and it will take Masnton many years to recover from the reputation it now has.

I agree my parents were stuck in EDI.

We all know someone who was stranded, but I also know lots of people who say that it was shame the thing collapsed as they had tried the service and been impressed. I also know people who say that it was a shame it collapsed but feel guilty that they didnt support it.

If an established operator began operations I think the confidence would return quickly, however if it was another start up it would be a different story.

Mdis

Good link to CAA report.

Interesting that only 1% of disgruntled pax state that they would be worried about using an unknown airline in future. I would have thought it would be much higher.

Mdis

Xavier Dosh

8th Jan 2007, 19:26

MDIS

I didn’t realise what I was letting myself in for when I posted on the Manston thread. I didn’t expect such a lengthy debate – but it’s good fun nonetheless. :D

I don’t understand why you keep quoting Southampton. What’s Southampton got to do with Manston? Apart from the fact that once upon a time there were no passenger flights from Southampton and now there are?

Southampton and the surrounding area have a bit more going for it than Ramsgate and its surrounding area.

I’m fairly confident that Joe Bloggs from Ramsgate is not going to pay £300 (which is probably the best part of a weeks wage in Thanet, to fly to Edinburgh.

Reference the quote from Infratil – what infrastructure?

What are you trying to say? I could be misreading your posts or perhaps I’m just not receptive enough – but I seem to be quite clear with my opinion that Manston will never expand its business and will not become a successful passenger airport because of its location.

All you seem to be saying is that it might expand, perhaps when there is an infrastructure (of what sort we don’t know), if the right airline arrives (don’t know whom), with the right aircraft (don’t know what type), to fly to the right places(possibly EDI, MAN etc), to charge the right prices(£300.00?????) and if it changes it’s name to Southampton!

So why is it that we’re in 2007, when the RAF left on 31st March 1999 it hasn’t happened yet? Answer – because it’s never going to!

Do you really think that the entire population of Kent are all booking flights thinking ‘if only we could fly from Manston’? I think not! I’ve just booked a flight to GVA from LGW for £70 return Inc taxes with BA – MSE won’t beat that….

Currently, there are no passengers keeping Manston in Business and they never will! :ugh:

Andy S :D

You’re wrong – there is an easy answer

It’s a non-starter!

Any commercially astute airline will realise that and not bother

Harsh but I’m confident that’s the reality :ugh:

Twitcher :D

I think, from the tone of your post, you’re of the opinion that an airline (or two) are on finals??!!!

Evidently from all of my posts – I don’t think it’s going to happen.

Manston simply cannot continue to operate as is for much longer. It’s far too big and it’s doing far too little…
:ugh:

MDIS

8th Jan 2007, 20:40

The onlky reason I keep mentioning SOU is because I witnessed its growth from leaking hanger to new terminalto successful regional airport. I agree with your comment about the difference between Southampton and Thanet but you need to consider Canterbury, Ashford and Maidstone as well as the rest of Kent.

The infrastructure I was talking about was the repair to the runway ends, the replacement radar the new electrical supply, the new lighting etc.

I am not saying that Joe Bloggs will pay £300, what I am doing is throwing some questions into the forum to get some other viewpoints which is working.

People in Kent will fly from Manston it is quicker once you are at the airport and its quicker when you return.

I dont think Twitcher is saying anything is imminent.

MDIS

Xavier Dosh

9th Jan 2007, 09:10

I think you're wrong

What's quicker about Manston? If you have to check-in 90minutes before scheduled time of departure then there's no advantage.... Check-in time is check-in time...

I can't imagine many people will think let's drive to Manston and save ourselves 20 minutes between the car park and the terminal.

If it was ever going to happen - it would have happened by now..

If Manston was to completely close down tomorrow - it would make no difference.. Passengers aren't queuing to fly from Manston and Operators aren’t queuing up to get in.

EuJet ceasing operations has had no major impact apart from on the people who lost their jobs and I would not wish that on anyone.

We need to be realistic about Manston and as I said before, no commercially astute (successful) business person is going to send one of his aircraft down to Manston to start operating scheduled flights to MAN or EDI.

It’s not happening chaps

pamann

9th Jan 2007, 12:51

Just thought I'd throw my two pennies worth into the debate....

What's quicker about Manston? If you have to check-in 90minutes before scheduled time of departure then there's no advantage.... Check-in time is check-in time...

Well LCY has a 20 or 30 minute check-in, being a smaller airport I guess Manston would match this? Infact when EUJet were flying I'm sure this was the case?

I can't imagine many people will think let's drive to Manston and save ourselves 20 minutes between the car park and the terminal.

Now at the time of EUJet's operation I used them on many occasions. Now I also lived 65 miles from Manston, which was a good 20-30 miles further than Gatwick or Stansted but door to door took me a lot quicker! I would get off the plane at Manston and my bag was there on the carousel, my car outside in less than 5 minutes and that’s no joke. I chose Manston for this reason so I guess I'm one person that thought this was a good idea. Well not only me but friends who lived 20 minutes from Stansted in north east London raved about the airport and used EUJet for this reason too! I like many can't bare the big London airports which have become a version of "Lakeside shopping centre vs some check-in desks" not my idea of fun.

It’s not happening chaps

I know it's not huge but are you aware of the charters to Palma, Alicante and Faro this Summer??? 3 737's a week not forgetting the weekly Monarch flight to Norfolk (Virginia that is) with an A330 or poss 763??? OK, four flights a week but I guess that's something happening over 2006, but I’m not sure it will pay the bills.

Lets stay possitive on here and stop covering the same ground again and again.:ok:

MDIS

9th Jan 2007, 13:46

:D Well said

Xavier Dosh

9th Jan 2007, 16:00

Pamann

Well said indeed :D

But you and your chums and the other 200,000 projected people still weren't enough to keep EuJet going...

As I said before, Check-in time is CHeck-in time and it's the same at most airports. So, the only time saving would be in the car park.

I'm all in favour of the flights to Alicante etc - In fact I'm all in favour of any flight from Manston.

But, I just don't see the huge numbers of passengers using MSE that MDIS and the others do. MSE needs far more than EuJet or the proposed flights to Spain this year. Hence my suggustion in an earlier post that it might be more practical and prfitable to run the airport if it were smaller.

I would suspect that your friends who live 20 minutes from Stansted but drove to Manston could be in the minority there!

I'm positive but realistic, that's all. Most of the comments about expansion are generally based on hearsay or speculation. Or even some electrical work that may have been done at the airport... You do tend to clutch at straws slightly chaps

I think we had just better agree to disagree becuase I'm not going to be convinced otherwise....

All the best

XD

MDIS

9th Jan 2007, 16:38

XD

So that we're are not accused of going over old ground would you mind reading the whole thread re who failed Eujet, planestation or both.

Check in time is not check in time. Easyjet state that check in closes 40 minutes prior to departure at LGW. They may open 2 hours prior but that is not the latest. However if you turn up at LCY with 40 mins to get through security you can probably make the flight. At LGW you dont have a prayer of making it. (thats from recent experience)

I do agree that MSE would be more profitable if it were smaller but the minimum staffing would be the same. Obviously there would be savings on rates and maintenance but I wouldnt think they would be huge.

Agreeing to disagree is the best way forward, but I like the fat that you are optimistic and realistic; a steadying influence on this thread.

Mdis

Jes

9th Jan 2007, 22:05

deedave

10th Jan 2007, 07:40

So that history doesn't get re-written, a few facts distilled from the CAA....

In 11 months of ops, approx 150,000 people made return trips with EUjet at MSE.

Load factor difficult to be precise, but generally about 38.5%.

Knowledge of principles of lo-co, plus load factor, plus massive promotional givaways, plus dummy runs on booking engine to gauge prices, makes it fairly obvious that the seats were largely a giveaway, hence the massive losses.

EUjet did OK at Shannon, badly at Manston.

EUjet isn't a guide to demand, just a demonstration that lo-co is no-go at MSE.....

Seguro-

Seguro in 2006 is a better guide, although statements on this board hint that airport charges for the airline may be low or non-existent, perhaps reducing ticket prices somewhat. Nonetheless, their booking engine suggests that they are at least having a stab at realistic charges.

CAA stats again...

In 2006, approx 2000 people made return trips to Faro with Seguro, approx 50% loading.

Barcelona - approx 750 people. Route now dropped.

These are traditionally popular destinations.

Bearing in mind that this is before the govt. start ramping aviation tax, and before any competition from Lydd, I do not find this a promising performance.

Seguro routes in 2007.....

These are VERY popular routes.
Personally, if every A/C isn't full to bursting, I reckon Manston's passenger prospects are even worse than I currently believe.
.
.

EI-BUD

10th Jan 2007, 10:44

EUjet isn't a guide to demand, just a demonstration that lo-co is no-go at MSE.....

I disagree that Lo-co is a no-go at MSE.

The brand was unknown, so people booked the usual airlines that they know. IF Ryanair did MSE I am confident that it would have been a success. As FR have a captive audience,many if not most consult FR website when looking for (a low fare) a flight .

As for Eujet doing well at SNN that would not be hard for them given they only had a few flights per week, mainly to Malaga, and Faro. 2 destinations that do very well from most airports in Ireland and UK.

I look forward to the day that manston is a success for the travelling public and I am confident that when it happens it will be with the help of one of the big LO-Cos . I couldnt see any full service carriers going in there pre the airport get established.

tommyc2005

10th Jan 2007, 11:50

I’ve been reading the circular debate in this thread with interest, and thought I’d throw my sixpence in. I believe there is potential for pax ops at MSE, however whether or not this is enough for the airport to survive is another matter.

I would dispute deedave’s figures as being a misrepresentation of the Seguro routes – the actual LF for FAO was 63-65%, not around 50% as he suggests. BCN at 20% did perform poorly, but there are other factors to consider.

Firstly, BCN was for the Costa Brava. Anyone familiar with the package holiday market would know that the Costa Brava has been in terminal decline for a few years now, and has been dropped by some high-profile operators. The route was probably chosen in the first place simply by virtue of the fact that the aircraft had to originate there. Even so, the loads were poor, but the diabolical flight times surely contributed. These were improved but then changed a third time to go via PIK, making them arguably worse than they were originally.

Secondly, the programme was announced relatively late. This would probably explain the poorest performances being in July and August – many would wish to avoid travel during those months, and many that would travel would quite probably have already made plans. FAO performed quite strongly in June and September, October was reasonable and the first flight in May nearly full. As Dave also notes (in a round-about way) there didn’t appear to be too much discounting going on.

Its worth noting the Italian flights did rather well, and there is an extra one in the programme for 07.

I have every confidence the new (sun) routes will do well. Norfolk remains to be seen. I’m pretty surprised there is nothing to Jersey, or Malaga.

Another problem could be the rate at which operations develop – it could be over a long time-frame and the question would be are the owners patient enough? My hunch is yes, so long as freight ops develop as they intend.

Given the demographics of the surrounding area, I’m sure that Turkey and Bulgaria (ie cheap) would be winners, and in Balkan and Goldtrail there are suitable companies with ops from many UK regional airports and an existing relationship with Infratil. However, it seems unlikely there would be any developments before summer 08, a long way off. I also wouldn’t be surprised to see Seguro expand, TFS a possible for winter 07 and maybe MAH or ACE in 08. Various other Med destinations could work/happen, and maybe a winter ski flight or two.

The final problem I see, and someone else has touched on this, is who exactly could operate scheduled routes? There are routes I feel would be viable – AMS, DUB, EDI and MAN. If FR couldn’t make HUY work, I don’t see much prospect of them coming to town in the foreseeable future. Flybe? More likely due to smaller a/c, but I can’t see them basing at MSE. Perhaps they would op 1 daily from another base like EDI or GLA but I wouldn’t be too confident of it happening. Arann to DUB? Most suitable in terms of a/c, but they haven’t exactly rushed to get in so far. The best bet would be for someone to start one up especially with an F50 or two!

So, in conclusion, its not all doom and gloom in terms of pax potential in my opinion, but whether or not the potential will ever come to fruition depends upon overcoming various obstacles, other areas of the business being successful and the pax ops ultimately being enough to be economically viable.

I look forward to your responses!

Andy_S

10th Jan 2007, 11:55

The brand was unknown, so people booked the usual airlines that they know.
I disagree. EUjet were known in the area. They advertised in the regional press and on television, and a couple of hundred thousand passengers subsequently flew with them. I believe they even sponsored an airshow.

MDIS

10th Jan 2007, 15:05

So that history doesn't get re-written, a few facts distilled from the CAA....

In 11 months of ops, approx 150,000 people made return trips with EUjet at MSE.

.
.
Both airlines and airports quote total passengers handled ie inbound and outbound. Therefore 300,000 pax plus one way trippers in 11 months of operation. Only two aircraft for first 2 months then increased to 4 plus the dog DFZ. So the 400,000 maybe a bit optimistic maybe nearer 350,000 - 375,000.

MDIS

berrs003

10th Jan 2007, 15:17

EgyptAir Cargo resumes next Sunday, after the Xmas break
MK going to daily flight
New cargo apron marked out; just need to agree contractor
BMed rumour looking good
.
Talks on pax routes are ongoing. Many airlines are interested, but both parties have to agree. Ryanair's proposal was rejected by Infratil, and other companies continue to talk. Please, let's stop hearing this nonsense about passenger routes not being viable: it's so boring.

One of the best posts in the last few pages. This is what we should be talking about :)

How long ago were Ryanair interested JES? :rolleyes:

Has there been any formal announcement over the apron or d you have any more info on it? thanks

Andy_S

10th Jan 2007, 15:48

One of the best posts in the last few pages. This is what we should be talking about :)
I know I'm not the first person to point this out, but no one has the right to monopolise or dictate "what we should be talking about". And personally, I think the best posts are the ones which are thoughtful and well argued rather than those that simply repeat rumours that you happen to approve of.

Regarding Jes' earlier post, talk of passenger routes being viable may be "boring" but it's certainly not nonsense and it shouldn't be stifled. As far as I can see, nothing has been proven.....

MDIS

10th Jan 2007, 15:55

Andy_S

Andy I think your comment is valid, nothing should be stifled and as long as we can discuss,argue and be civil to each other the mods will be happy.

Mdis

tilewood

10th Jan 2007, 18:34

Andy_S
Andy I think your comment is valid, nothing should be stifled and as long as we can discuss,argue and be civil to each other the mods will be happy.
Mdis

I see that this post has been edited by Evileyes, as was mine on the
Southend thread, the reason being ADQ.

I wrote a private mail to the mods, asking what ADQ meant, but did not
receive the courtesy of a reply, so perhaps someone in the wider world
is prepared to answer my question.

What does 'ADQ' mean?

Dont tell um pike

10th Jan 2007, 18:39

"Since we have a fresh start on these threads, PLEASE let’s not fill them with "Attention Deficit Quoting", hereafter known as ADQ. We all know what the poster immediately before you said. There is no need to waste PPRuNe bandwidth by saying it again as a quote. Further, it causes the Mods time and effort to clean them out. It boils down to a matter of risking deletion or making your point without automatically quoting the post before yours."
:ok:
DTUP

thats a quote btw , not my opinion

MDIS

10th Jan 2007, 18:43

Thanks for clearing that up DTUP.
I have been chastised by the mods for being personal when I am actually referring to a different quote. So in order not have my knuckles rapped again I am trying to specific as to the post I am replying to, hence the quote.

Can't win really

MDIS

tilewood

10th Jan 2007, 18:50

Thankyou that is all I needed to know!!

berrs003

10th Jan 2007, 20:06

Cant qte work out who Bmed are. could someone shed some light on the topic.
Have they actually been to MSE to look around or is this anohter esperia wannabee story :ugh:

thanks

fj1

10th Jan 2007, 20:19

Bmed (Formerley British Mediterranean Airways) , currently fly from LHR to the Mid-East with a fleet of eight A320/1. They might be looking into an dedicated cargo operation.
look at this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=258495

blazing_air

10th Jan 2007, 20:35

just to add to that, no it isnt another spurious air and yes a party from BMED have been to MSE and had a look at the facilities.

Evileyes

10th Jan 2007, 20:53

Thanks DTUP, may as well throw the whole post in for those that still can't figure it out.
9 May 06 Update
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In an effort to clean up the threads and make them more user friendly we are archiving the larger ones by locking them and starting new ones labeled "X Airport 2". The originals will still be available via the PPRuNe search function.

Since we have a fresh start on these threads, PLEASE let’s not fill them with "Attention Deficit Quoting", hereafter known as ADQ. We all know what the poster immediately before you said. There is no need to waste PPRuNe bandwidth by saying it again as a quote. Further, it causes the Mods time and effort to clean them out. It boils down to a matter of risking deletion or making your point without automatically quoting the post before yours.

If the post you are replying to is a few posts back then fair enough, qoute. Just don't quote the whole thing please. Replying to the username is normally just as effective.

Cheers,
Evileyes
............................................................ .................................

Going a step further, if there is a specific point in the previous post that you are addressing, fine. Quote the point, not the whole post.

berrs003

11th Jan 2007, 17:35

back on topic.... does anyone know what A/C Bmed plan to operate with and t owhat frequency.
I know i am asking alot but the bmed "rumour" still seems raher vague :}
Thanks

sam

Jes

11th Jan 2007, 17:40

Post 133 dealt with this.

berrs003

12th Jan 2007, 19:47

I was told a little while ago that the american flights later this year were selling well.
The only problem i see is that they will have to put 300 bums on seats each week, a bit confident arent they?
Could anybody give any more information? :)

catflaps

13th Jan 2007, 07:53

Rising interest rates, rising fuel costs, doubling of flight duty, announcements at Pfizer on the 22nd: It's easy to see a number of reasons why people would be short of cash for exploratory flights to a place, when the only thing they've heard of it is that there is a lonesone pine. Presumably, the limited number of flights on offer means they can't spend much money advertizing them.

fj1

13th Jan 2007, 15:46

Cosmos are offering over seventy package holidays in there brochure using the manston flights. If this is the only direct flight, there must be a good chance of selling seats thoughout the south-east. catflaps good to see life isn't getting you down.

MDIS

13th Jan 2007, 18:20

Advertising is quite strong on Kent Radio stations and capital gold (So I am told)

Brockmans Travel took bookings for Virginia on their set up day last week.

Official opening of the travel agency today.

MDIS

niknak

13th Jan 2007, 19:34

Breaking News - the new owners of BMED, like the previous astute owners of BMEd, are NOT interested in a freight only operation.
All they care about is bums on seats - at the moment, and for the forseeable future, that does not include Manston.

Cosmos are also offering all their package holidays from all the other regional airports - what it will come down to is whichever airport sells the most, the remaining passengers will then be transported to that airport by coach. Guess whose going to start their holiday by bus from Manston....

berrs003

13th Jan 2007, 19:44

so no manston transatlantic service then? :uhoh:

fj1

13th Jan 2007, 20:34

any proof there, acording to the comos website flights departing from "Kent Int., Manston"

berrs003

13th Jan 2007, 20:39

i agree... :cool:

to add to that the kentescapes website has a 2008 selection intergrated for some reason. error or possible announcement?:rolleyes:

catflaps

14th Jan 2007, 19:50

fj1. You seem smitten by the fact that Cosmos say they will be departing from Manston. That may well be the current plan. However, they aren't hog-tied to this arrangement. Try reading the small print (their Terms and Conditions):

"Although it is unlikely, we may occasionally have to change your holiday arrangements as they are made well in advance, and we reserve the right to do so. For instance, your flight details may change….

The following changes are examples of significant changes:
A change of your departure airport….."

Herne Bay

16th Jan 2007, 08:34

The fact that these flights are being booked both ways, would make it hard to change airport, our USA pals would not be pleased.
And both Kent CC and Virginia have put a little money into this project.
I understand that bookings from Virginia are doing very well.
The Airport has pulled off a major coup, with Brockmans Travel moving in to the airport selling Kent Escapes Hoildays who are operating to Benidorm, Majorca and Faro; Cosmos who are flying to Norfolk, Virginia, in the USA; and Newmarket Holidays who just done a few charters last from Manston last year .Are doing a lot more flights this year as last years done so well, say Newmarket, various destinations in Italy.

deedave

16th Jan 2007, 12:34

Incidentally, a number of people have stated on this board that Virginia bookings are "going well".

Would anybody care to verify your sources or provide proof?

tommyc2005

16th Jan 2007, 13:37

deedave - your bias is blatantly anti-Manston and that is your open choice, mine is neutral, the place doesn't affect me but I do have an interest. However, you appear to be exaggerating 'failure', and I still dispute your figures.

To the best of my knowledge, LTE were using A320s with a capacity of 168. Going with that figure (some have 162 seats), that gives a total of 7392 seats over 22 flights each way, far lower than your 8280. If your exec charter figure is correct (I didn't know about these and they may not have been captured in the CAA figures anyway), it would give Seguro 4244 pax. That is a LF of 57.4%. Not brilliant, but much better than 50%.

You seem to recall the programme being announced well before Christmas.

It wasn't. It was announced February 1st. I believe it went on sale a couple of days later with online booking a week or two after. That is very late notice for a charter programme, considering the first brochures come out around May the previous year. As I said, figures for June, September and October (months in which a much higher proportion of people book late) were quite strong.

Last year's worst-case figures on next summers a/c would give a LF of over 65%. Best case would be over 71%. With an improved performance in July and August I would expect the figures to be much higher. Seguro clearly believe so too which is why they have come back with an expanded programme.

Cosmos I have no idea about, but since it hasn't been cancelled yet it must be a reasonable success ;) I've seen the website of one of the US companies using it, and it almost makes me want to go to Kent for a week or two!!

MDIS

16th Jan 2007, 16:11

MDIS

16th Jan 2007, 16:13

berrs003

16th Jan 2007, 16:15

Deedave and catflaps why are you so Anti-manston in the first place.

moving on. Sales for the first two flights are now fully booked both ways. I know its just two return flights but it is promising :ok:
The only thing i dont understand is how they will put 300 on a plane every wednesday thereafter :sad:

MDIS

16th Jan 2007, 16:15

Apparently a decision will be made at the end of January if these flights are to go ahead.

deedave

16th Jan 2007, 20:57

tommyc-

The post of mine to which you replied has mysteriously disappeared.

No matter.

Technically I am not anti-MSE.
5 years ago I was vigorously pro, and I would still love to see a busy, working airport in Thanet.
However, my pursuit of the truth about the venture has led me to believe it is unsustainable, damaging to Thanet, and embarassing for aviation as a whole, and it should be closed.

If I have an agenda at all, it is that the truth should be told.

It was stated in the press and on this forum that the LTE a/c had a capacity of 180, not the 168 you state.

I stated that my load factor figures were approximate, and were not my main point.
However, the fact that Faro only achieved 00.14% of the published catchment population is a mathematical fact.

I stand corrected about Seguro announcement date. With so many dud rumours around it is easy to forget. Thank you for your help with this.

Seguro may well be returning for commercial reasons, or are they being subsidised by Infratil for PR purposes? Who knows?

One thing is fairly certain, 2007 will be a peak year for Infratil at MSE. No competition from Lydd as yet, and hefty environmental taxes not yet raised.

I expect every a/c to be full.

If not, even my own pessimistic view of MSE may turn out to be unrealistically optimistic.