Last NCO Pilot entry?

[FirstFiveEighth]

G'day,

Following a question from my uncle, an ex-RAF Flt.Sgt. Pilot (Mosquitos), I'm trying to ascertain when the RAF stopped recruiting and training NCO Pilots. I have the feeling it was pre-Korean War, possibly 1949.

Anyone know/recall?

Whilst on the subject, anyone know when they stopped recruiting NCO Navs?

FFE

[airborne_artist]

No firm corroboration, but Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_enlisted_ranks) suggests it was 1950.

This old PPrune thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-39672.html) seems to agree.

[Bertie Thruster]

I had a degree when I started at Cranwell (1984) so I was commissioned on the first day. I was also a Cpl (acting Sgt) until the Army discharged me on Graduation day, 18 weeks later.

Does that count?!

[brakedwell]

We had a Sergeant Signaller on 152 sqn in Bahrain who was accepted for pilot training after his return to UK in 1961. He became an NCO chopper pilot.

[airborne_artist]

Brakedwell has just reminded me of the best QFI I ever flew with - Brian Skillicorn (http://www.area51aviation.co.uk/eagles9.html) - the bio says "Brian joined the RAF as an apprentice in 1959 before becoming a Sergeant pilot getting his wings in 1963 and heading for the far east to fly helicopters with 225 and 103 Squadrons. Brian was commissioned and won the AFC in 1967...."

[Low Ball]

I had the dubious pleasure of being in the infantry and in 1965/1966 we were in the third division in Borneo supported by 110 Sqn RAF based at Nanga Ghat flying Whirlwind 10s. Their det had an NCO pilot called Fred Airies (spelling?). Just as we were about to leave in March 1966 Belevedere was introduced and we had spent the previous month increasing the size of all the HLSs (no mean feat!) in our area of operations. The first Belevedere flown in was piloted by a Warrant Officer whose name I never discovered.

So RAF NCO aircrew were still at the controls in 1966, of helecopoters at least.

Low Ball

[ShyTorque]

Warrant Officer "Taff" Walker was still instructing on the good old Wessex on 240 OCU at Odiham in 1979 and possibly a little after, I think he was the last flying RAF NCO pilot. I'm not sure when the RAF ceased recruiting NCO pilots though.

[GlosMikeP]

There was a Master Pilot at Lyneham, albeit not on flying duties but managing an ops desk, in 1977. He'd flown everything, everywhere. Brigands were his favourite for stories.

[teeteringhead]

It's Fred Ayris Low Ball. He too was subsequently commissioned, but not before he'd got the AFM - not sure what for. He was also subsequently in the Whirlwind which flew into the hangar at Valley ..... but maybe Oldbeefer could tell us more about that.....;)

As for Navs,there were a couple still on 72 Sqn (Wessex at Odiham) in the early 70s, one was an aged Master (Warrant Officer) but one was a (relatively) young-looking Flight Sergeant. I'll dust off Vol 1 of the log books and see if I can find a name.

Taff Walker was indeed the last flying non-commissioned pilot in the RAF - for that he got his picture on the cover of Air Clues when he retired.

[Rossian]

When I was on the Shack MOTU in 1964 one of the Sgt student pilots went away for a long w/e and came back as a Flying Officer. When I joined 210 at Ballykelly a little later my first crew had a very young Sgt pilot. He resisted all attempts to be commissioned and left to go to BOAC. Most of my flying training at Topcliffe was spent sitting behind or beside Master Pilots of varying nationalities and there were several Master Navs and a couple of F.S. navs and pilots as well.
The Ancient Mariner

[scroggs]

Brakedwell has just reminded me of the best QFI I ever flew with - Brian Skillicorn (http://www.area51aviation.co.uk/eagles9.html) - the bio says "Brian joined the RAF as an apprentice in 1959 before becoming a Sergeant pilot getting his wings in 1963 and heading for the far east to fly helicopters with 225 and 103 Squadrons. Brian was commissioned and won the AFC in 1967...."

Still flying, too, AFAIK. Occasionally rings me up to help out with formation stuff at North Weald - though I've never been able to oblige, and suspect that my formation skills are now rather too rusty to be relied upon! A fine chap, Skilli.

Scroggs

[oldbeefer]

Yes, Fred was up front, but the aircraft was flown by Mike Ramshaw. Whoops, I said I'd never tell anybody!

[ShyTorque]

I thought M.R. preferred attacking the hangar roof from above .... :E

[Rigga]

I remember the Unit Test Pilot, at Tern Hill and Shawbury, at least from 1975, quite clearly - well, all but his name - Oh, It's just come to me...
Master Pilot Alec Riddoch!
I remember refering to him as "Mister" Riddoch, a term he seemed to like very much!
Often, he would put his Flying Jacket on to do Flight Tests - Not a Flying Suit - Just Blues and his Jacket would do, as he probably needed somewhere to put his Chinagraph. He had a Flt Lt working alongside him, who was obviously tollerated by Alec up to his retirement (though the Flt Lt was quite a good UTP too!).

[floppyjock]

I remember an RAF Cpl going through the Army Pilots course in the late 90s. Believe he had to transfer to the army before he recived his wings. Cant have RAF NCO with wings bad show what what what!

Floppy

[old developer]

When I was on the Shack MOTU in 1964 one of the Sgt student pilots went away for a long w/e and came back as a Flying Officer. When I joined 210 at Ballykelly a little later my first crew had a very young Sgt pilot. He resisted all attempts to be commissioned and left to go to BOAC. Most of my flying training at Topcliffe was spent sitting behind or beside Master Pilots of varying nationalities and there were several Master Navs and a couple of F.S. navs and pilots as well.
The Ancient Mariner
I seem to remember that there was a Master Pilot around BK at the same kind of time

[Low Ball]

Floopy,

If this is the man I know I thought it was a bit earlier that you suggest. IIRC I was the CFI at Wallop at the time. He completed the course as an RAF NCO (SGT IIRC) in the event he failed he would have gone straight back to the RAF without having reduce a rain forrest to rebadge him from the Army! Anyway good for him he passed and got his wings dressed as an AAC SGT. Initially he flew helicopters and somewhere down the line took up fixed wing (Islander) and got a commission. Then low and behold he transfers back into the RAF and ended up as captain of a C130. Not sure where he is now. He is called Allan and I don't recall his surname. It was all very interesting as I had first met him at Bessbrook as a Puma Crewman 76/77. The whole thing was very much a 'one off' as the RAF felt there might be a flood of NCO Crewmen who would follow in his tracks, that caused some angst if I recall.

Low Ball

[Loki]

Airborne artist:

Brian Skillicorn?

That brings back memories! Bedford circa 1973 and a much modified scout. Listening in the tower to an engineer discussing on the RT how much strain was being put on various bits of said aircraft, and some very laconic responses.

[What Limits]

Low Ball

The 'Alan' you are thinking of transferred across in the very early 80's and ended up as my bosss on Islanders. Yes he did transfer back to the RAF and ended up as a C130 captain. He has now left the Military and flies civvy planks.

The other guy referred to in the thread was very much later and I think he went through Barkston in '95 or thereabouts.

[Cornish Jack]

There was, indeed, a re-introduction of NCO pilots in the mid 60s. It was a short term measure, presumably because of recruiting pressures. Tony Stafford and ????? Jones spring to mind from Valley/Tern Hill days. 'Nobby' Clark was still operating as a QHI at Valley and we had another M/Plt come through on SAR training. He had been on piston engine Whirlwinds some years previously - his computer-out flying was noticeably smoother than computer-in and his rotor rev control was immaculate!!!:ok:
The last days of the previous era of NCO pilots was the usual RAF nonsense in (as it then was) Transport Command. We had two M/Plts at Dishforth, one was a double A cat on Bevs AND Hastings and the other on Hastings. 'On High' dictated that its nice shiny aircraft could not be captained by lowly NCOs and, in order to preserve this stupidity, there was introduced the category of 'Training Captain' - not a 'proper' Captain, you see!!!:ugh: Eventually both these high quality professionals were forced to go to the Rupert factory to do the knife and fork course and told that they would NOT fail!!
So much of my flying time was in the company of these proper professionals although Skilli was in elevated mode at Boscombe! I've flown with at least three of these 'retreads' in both their primary and commissioned versions - surprisingly their later elevation did nothing to change their skills - either as pilots or people.:rolleyes:
My advanced flying training was done at Thorney in the mid 50s and there was almost a preponderance of NCO pilots there - a lot of brass eagles on left breast pocket flaps!!! they had been there ... and a lot of them showed the scars - literally. Nostalgia isn't what it used to be:hmm:

[brakedwell]

Cornish Jack
Tony Stafford was the signaller I was referring to. He was a great bloke, unfortunately our paths never crossed after Bahrain.

[winkle]

I remember a master pilot in the jp sim at linton in the early 80s

[lsh]

What a fantastic rank (title) to have!
I was down the back of a Wessex and had to retrieve "Taff" Walkers magnifying glass, which he had dropped on a navex!!
He even called the staish "boy".
(Started on Mosquitos and joined about '42, I think).
I could have sworn that "Jock" Riddoch flew last.
But I guess RAF News should know!
As you say UTP SY.
Al H****n was a Puma crewman first. Did all that has been mentioned and also spent some time flying the A109.
Cheers!
lsh

[diginagain]

Al H****n was a Puma crewman first.....

Despite which.................:}

(Worked a lot with Al, bl00dy good hand.)

[ShyTorque]

What a fantastic rank (title) to have!
I was down the back of a Wessex and had to retrieve "Taff" Walkers magnifying glass, which he had dropped on a navex!!
He even called the staish "boy".
(Started on Mosquitos and joined about '42, I think).
I could have sworn that "Jock" Riddoch flew last.
But I guess RAF News should know!
As you say UTP SY.
Al H****n was a Puma crewman first. Did all that has been mentioned and also spent some time flying the A109.
Cheers!
lsh

Ah, LSH!

If you are the ex Puma crewman you spent a few trips in my LHS!

(Bark once for yes, twice for no! Ring any bells? If so, drop me a P.M. Unless the Xmas letter is on its way soon ;) )

[lsh]

Centre seat mostly!!
PM sent.
(L)SH

[ShyTorque]

Only when we tied a knot in your monkey harness to shorten it! :)

[pulse1]

Could I possibly use this thread to ask a supplementary question that has always intrigued me. I remember as an ATC cadet, sometime in the 50's, seeing an airman with RAF wings working in the airmans' mess at RAF Lllandow.

I have always assumed that he was an NCO pilot who had been reduced to the ranks for some misdeanour. Could there be another explanation?

[dragon166]

pulse1

A possible answer to your recollection may be due to the airman in question having re-enlisted after a period in civvie street. When back in uniform he would still be entitled to display previously earned aircrew brevets.

When I was at Colerne in 1972 there was a Cpl who wore an Air Gunners Brevet. I asked him about it and he said he had been demobbed at the end of WWII and re-enlisted in the early 1950s. As an aside, the UTP and the SWO at Colerne at that time both wore the Pathfinder eagle. The UTP was a Sqn Ldr Walsh but the SWOs name is lost in the mist of time. Both good eggs though.

[lsh]

In the early eighties SAC Brian H****n was in ATC at Manston, wearing an ALM brevet.
He had done the 6 months on the Sqn that were required to earn the brevet but was subsequently remustered out of the trade.
They changed the rules pretty quickly after that and you had to attain "combat ready" status on a Sqn to qualify.
lsh
(monkey harness and bar!)

[Pontius Navigator]

We had two airmen aircrew student navs in 1961. One, at least, was ex-AEOp, Brian Wiggins. I think he went back to the kipper fleet. The other, Bill Cairns, completed the nav school and then was given a commission. As he had been through the whole nav school process, I am not sure what else he did, but I think it was a quick conversion.

I think the first RAF pilot I met, at least the first I met who was in uniform, was a Corporal. A Corporal Steward serving lunch in the Officers' Mess at RAF Silloth. I won't say when :)

[J.A.F.O.]

Not that it helps with the original question but I'm sure that I remember a Master Pilot at Finningley circa 1987.

[NutLoose]

Taff Walker was indeed the last flying non-commissioned pilot in the RAF - for that he got his picture on the cover of Air Clues when he retired.


And what a Gentleman too..

I seem to remember him being interviewed about the time of his impending retirement by some young lady reporter asking how did he feel when after flying all the other pilots went to the Officers Mess and he had to go to the Sergeants and his reply was not printable :hmm:

He once in a while regailed some of his wartime flights and If memory serves me right he mentioned returning of one mission shot up and lost with wounded onboard when the runway lights came on, upon landing the lights suddenly went out and a German Halftrack appeared out of the dark guns firing............. he said although he had no idea what was in front of him he just nailed the throttles fwd.

He was presented with a Solid Silver Wessex on his retirement...

Was there not a ex Master Pilot as the SWO at Odiham at the same time who had came to that position Via ATC?
I had arrived as a young impressionable LAC from training at the Guardroom, knocking on the hatch this face appeared and asked me if I knew anything about growing tomatoes, which took me aback somewhat ( he was having some problems with his in the greenhouse around the back of the Guardroom)................ Invited in and having a cup of coffee made by him I enquired of one of the Guards who he was to be told it was the SWO !!

[extpwron]

Another Taff Walker story I recall was when a young ATC cadet seeing the wings on his chest asked of the Master Pilot, “Excuse me sir but I thought the lowest rank you could be to fly an aircraft in the RAF was Pilot Officer”. To which Taff replied, “It is laddie”.

[lsh]

If I remember correctly he was an AG.
Nice guy, late 70's early 80's. (era not age!).

Replaced by a guy on promotion from Colchester!
Caused a but of dodging behind buildings, he did!!

Remember Dan Daly, Master Nav (Smirnoff + Bar)?!
lsh.

[Army Mover]

I'm certain there was a Cpl admin type at RAF Hendon in the 70's who wore RAF pilots wings. Jim Davidson was a mate of his.

[SamCaine]

It's ongoing, isn't it? AFAIK we're training NCO pilots every day. Oh, you meant RAF NCO pilots :}

[green granite]

There was a Master pilot at Boscombe early 70's, he brought me a replacement kinetheodolite camera up to scampton when the one we were using for trials broke. He arrived in a Valletta and SACTO went all dewey eyed
and entered the nostalgic mode

[scorpion63]

There was a Corporal AATC at Cottesmore in 1967 with Pilots wings and a chest full of medals, he had re enlisted after previous service.

[AvTech]

I remember a Master Pilot on the Lightning sim at Binbrook in the 80's, who was an absolute gentleman. When I arrived at Gut in '79 there was a old Cpl on 18 sqn who wore an AG brevet and various medal ribbons on his battle dress (most of use had thunderbird jackets by then) At Valley in the '80s, the walls of STCAAME (sic) were littered with pictures of hoards of NCO pilots alongside their Javelins which went out of service in '68.

[NutLoose]

If I remember correctly he was an AG.
Nice guy, late 70's early 80's. (era not age!).

Replaced by a guy on promotion from Colchester!
Caused a but of dodging behind buildings, he did!!

Remember Dan Daly, Master Nav (Smirnoff + Bar)?!
lsh.

Thats the one. :) was a nice man, the replacement was something I wouldnt step in................. Pulled me up one day for long sideboards, well it was the 70's.... asked who I reported to in the mornings, so thinking damage control gave him the name of a fair sergeant.... he called him on the phone and asked have you seen the state of this Airman? answered well he normally has is overalls on so cannot comment on his dress lol. had him over the guardroom, bollocked him and had him have a haircut too........ was not amused..

There was also a slightly slow SAC? Brooks with a broad accent in the Guardroom whom everytime he made a tannoy message, we used to call the guardroom so the phone was ringing in the background, u would have thought he would have cottoned on............:ugh:

[Danny42C]

I distinctly remember a Cpl ATC Asst (probably a Runway Controller) late '50s, with Pilot's brevet and war ribbons.

[MPN11]

In the guardroom at Manby in 65/66 was an SAC "Trade Assistant General" similarly attired with pilots wings and war medals. I was told he never adapted to life outside the RAF, and rejoined to stay 'within the family'.

[ancientaviator62]

airborne artist,
I met Brian when he was a Hercules Co on 30 Sqn in the 90's. A class act.

[Krystal n chips]

I seem to recall an Air Traffic Cpl at Valley who wore pilots wings....this would be in the 70's.

There were still plenty of "AG" and "B" brevet wearers around at that time and my first flight commander at Halton actually wore an "O" brevet. Which possibly made him unique at the time....68-70.

[Fareastdriver]

I was very nearly a Sergeant Pilot. On one of my interviews with the CGI at Oakington in 1961 I was asked whether I would like to be one; it must have been something to do with my Ps & Qs. I declined the offer inferring that I would rather leave the service. They must have been short of recruits because it was never mentioned again.

IIRC when the Varsities arrived from Valley I am sure that there were two sergeant students among them. When I arrived in Borneo in January 1966 there were two sergeant pilots on the squadron; Jim Lawn and Dave Cramp; possibly the same two.

Eventually Dave Cramp did my captains qualification and line check at Sumburgh in November 1978.

[ppl1976]

There was a Master Pilot instructor on the Hunter Sim at Chivenor in early 70's. Can't emember if he moved to Brawdy when Chivenor closed and the OCU (TWU) went there.

At end of WW2 weren't there a lot of acting NCO aircrew who reverted to their substansive ranks at war end? Former F.SGt pilots with wings and medals dressed as SAC. Apparently a lot of people thought they had been demoted due to LMF or some similar 'crime'. :confused:

[Tankertrashnav]

There were still plenty of "AG" and "B" brevet wearers around at that time and my first flight commander at Halton actually wore an "O" brevet. Which possibly made him unique at the time....68-70.

Not quite unique, a certain senior officer at nav school 1969-70 still wore this brevet. There were some mutterings that the old description of the 'O' brevet as "the flying a****ole" was particularly appropriate in his case.

[Yellow Sun]

Not quite unique, a certain senior officer at nav school 1969-70 still wore this brevet. There were some mutterings that the old description of the 'O' brevet as "the flying a****ole" was particularly appropriate in his case.

I thought that he was gentleman, albeit a slightly eccentric one. His successor on the other hand was a very strange individual and he could have been described and you put it!

YS

[oxenos]

On my Varsity course at Oakington (30/84 course) in early 1964 there were certainly 3, perhaps 4 Sgt. Pilots. One was subsequently on the same MOTU course as me in the September, another must have been on a later course, as both were on Shacks on 205 Sqn in Singapore in the late 60's. Another, I think went onto helicopters.

[Wander00]

Had an OC Admin at Watton in the mid 60s who wore the "O" brevet - pretty appropriate too, given its nickname.

[pgaruk]

I believe it was me. Wings awarded 3 Apr 64 at Leeming. Retired as Commandant (Lt Col) SAAF. Civvie Hercs thereafter - all good times.

[Typhoon93]

Why does the RAF only recruit pilots who are commissioned these days?

Is it down to politics or is there a valid reason behind it, i.e. fast jet pilots usually only have a limited half life so would require a decent pension to retire earlier than 22 years?

Or is it down to the fact that the RAF insists that its senior Commanders are aviators so they have an understanding of air power?

[Just This Once...]

Why do you say RAF as I am struggling to think of any comparable air force anywhere in the world that has NCO pilots?

[MightyGem]

Wow. An 8 year resurrection. Is that a record? :}

[Old-Duffer]

Following on from Post 46, in addition to Jim Lawn and Dave Cramp there was also Cherry Springate and Mel Buckley. These guys all went through Ternhill or Tern Hill (depending on what the service decreed) at the end of 1964.


There were several non commissioned instructors of whom Master Pilot Don Sissons springs to memory and Master Navigator Les Fuggle who IIRC ran the crewman training.


Several experienced Masters came through from fixed wing but at least one didn't like the idea of sitting beneath a demonic telegraph pole and so returned from whence he came.


My last go in a Sycamore was with Master Pilot Ray Rowe in Singapore in late 1966 but several others, such as Taff Walker have already been mentioned.


Old Duffer

[Union Jack]

Is that a record?

Perhaps someone will be clever enough to find out, but I am just grateful as ever to Danny for resuscitating the thread.

Thread drift I know, but quite interesting to note from the thought-provoking link http://www.fleetairarmoa.org/Content/sites/FAAOA/pages/178/FAA_amp_BoB.PDF that five of the fifty-six FAA pilots who fought in the Battle of Britain were Petty Officers, the equivalent rank/rating to Sergeant. I regret that I do not know when Chief or Petty Officer pilots were phased out of the FAA, although I would hazard a guess that it was probably in the mid 1950s.

Jack

[FleurDeLys]

I'm sure I had a QFI in the 70s, Gerry York, who had been a Sgt Pilot on Shacks... Must have been one of the latter examples of the species.

[ExAscoteer]

airborne artist,
I met Brian when he was a Hercules Co on 30 Sqn in the 90's. A class act.

Ditto.

He's flying JPs out of North Weald these days I believe.

[nimbev]

I seem to recall that on our IOT training course at South Cerney in 1962 we had some guys who were going through with us but were remaining as NCO aircrew. I believe a couple ended up as NCO Beverley navigators.

On my Bev OCU in 64 we had relatively young, ie not WW2, Fg Off Biff H.....d who wore the AFM or DFM (cant remember which) gained as a Sgt pilot on Meteors I believe. Ace bloke.

[Wander00]

There were 2 NCO QFIs on 1 Sqn at Cranwell 64. time, and ISTR each disappeared for a few weeks and reappeared as a fg off. Cannot remember the names but will look in my log book

[oxenos]

"Cherry Springate and Mel Buckley". (Post #56)
They were on my Varsity course, as was Keith Macbrayne, who was then on my MOTU course. (See Post #50) If C.S. and M.B. went to choppers, then I am pretty sure there was another, as I definitely recall two of them on 205, one being K.M. There was also Horace Gallop, who was already on my first Sqn, 206, in 1965 when I arrived, so he must have been a course or three ahead of us.
I wonder if there was a policy at one stage of posting the Shack N.C.O. pilots overseas, as the overseas Shacks did not carry the same weapon load as the U.K. based ones, and the cousins were not happy about non commisioned captains carrying a certain bit of Kit.

[Exnomad]

I did National Service 1951-53 and was commissioned as a Navigator. There were still a large number of NCO aircrew then, including my brother who was a Master Pilot, and QFI.
All recruitment then was was commissioned Pilots and Navigators, but I believe some NCO Radar and Radio aircrew were still being accepted.

[ShyTorque]

Wow. An 8 year resurrection. Is that a record?

MG, I had no idea you'd been away so long.. :p

[ian16th]

My advanced flying training was done at Thorney in the mid 50s and there was almost a preponderance of NCO pilots there - a lot of brass eagles on left breast pocket flaps!!! My 1st posting out of Boys service was to BCBS Lindholme 1954, we had Lincolns and Varsity's. Most of the Lincoln pilots seemed to be NCO's, many sported the Pathfinder badge and the other common denominator, many were Polish!

Deciphering signatures in the F700 was a challenge :sad:

[middlesbrough]

Chick Parkinson was the other sgt pilot

[CoffmanStarter]

A bit of a long shot really ... But does anyone remember a Master Pilot by the name of Alec Hammond ? Sadly he is no longer with us, he passed away in 1999 aged 76.

Alec served most of his flying career in England, but he also served in Canada as a QFI, training British and Canadian Pilots in the 1940's (on Harvards) and later serving in Singapore and Germany (RAFG Comms Squadron late 60's) during the 1950's & 60's. Alec served a total of 37 years with the Royal Air Force completing over 6000 solo hours as an NCO Pilot. He eventually retired from the Reserves (AEF Chipmunks) in the late 70's ... interestingly he had to be commissioned as a P/O in the RAFV(T) to be an AEF Pilot ... which he thought highly amusing.

On leaving the Regular RAF in the late 60's/early 70's he worked in the City for a Bank ... I believe he finally retired as a village postman here in East Sussex ... a great chap and exceptional pilot who had many interesting tales to tell.

A couple of pics that might help ...

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/0cc54d0e-3482-47cf-b853-bf1bafac896a_zps2c295ed4.jpg

Alec Hammond (Left) : As Sgt Pilot with his Co-Pilot (Ralph ?) : Ansons (which I now know is an Oxford)

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/IMG_0584_zpsee1cf794.jpg

Alec Hammond (BR 4th Left) : No 1 Squadron RAF 1963 : Hunters

Best ...

Coff.

[goudie]

What's a Nav? Sgt doing on a Hunter Sqdn.?

[Fareastdriver]

Somebody has to plan for them if they go out of the circuit.

[Wander00]

1 Sqn - bosses name and face seem familiar, but cannot think why. Was he at the Towers in the 60s?

[Danny42C]

Rigga, (Your #14 - a long way back !)

"I remember referring to him as "Mister" Riddoch, a term he seemed to like very much!"

So he should, it was his correct form of address (from above and below), as a rebadged Warrant Officer.

(So it was with P/Os and F/Os).

Danny.

[uffington sb]

On my first posting as an 'Assisting Air Traffic Contoller' at a secret airfield not far from Cambletown, aka RAF Machrihanish, there was a certain Master Pilot by the name of ' Blackie' Blackwell.
He would say that due to his flying pay, as he'd flown most types in the RAF inventory, including the Hornet, he was the most highly paid person on the unit, the Staish being a lowly Wg Cdr Admin wallah.

[oxenos]

"Chick Parkinson was the other sgt pilot"
Of course. He was on 30/84 at Oakigton and latterly on 205 (Post #50)

[26er]

In the Spring of 1965 there was a young sergeant pilot on "F" Flight of 2 Squadron, the Meteor target towing flight at Chivenor. He was on his first tour after training. I can only surmise that he was not considered suitable for a commission when he got his wings but after a short time on the flight he made the grade. A good egg.


In June '65 I was posted to Seletar where there were several nco pilots on the Whirlwinds.

[sycamore]

Went to S Cerney as a J/T,sub Cpl,A/Sgt(aircrew cadet) in `62/3`; lovely,bracing BreconBeacons,frozen rivers,and `zip` wires,lived in the Sgt`sMess Annex with 4 other ex-airmen , with our own `batman`....no `bulling`,polishing,etc whilst all the rest on 181Cse were learning the ropes..much time spent playing snooker whilst the `orfissers` had haircuts/polished boots/brasses,blancoed belts/ends of rifles to be avoided ,etc. Went to Syerston after that,but I think we may have been down to 3 ,or were shortly after..Myself,Bill Taylor and Pete/Dave .? Harris.
Other NCO Aircrew there were,Jim Lawn,K McBrayne,Al Mavin,and `Smudge`Smith,on course ahead of us(160 Cse).We were told that we were the last NCO Pilot Cse,assuming that was RAF wide.The course that had just graduated had been `p***ed-off because the `trophies`( best handling/navigation/ground-school/aeros/had all been won by George ? Black? ,a Sgt pilot,who would have won the Leadership trophy as well,but was deemed `ineligible`.... Think he was commissioned straight away.....
My main instructor was MPlt Alex Naismith,and there were several other Masters there as well,also in the Link Trainer,and the Station Nav,both Polish(Z S Boyko?); Station Barber was Polish as well.....
Anyway,in the fullness of time, Bill Taylor and I both got our Wings; mine is dated 20March 1964 in the logbook,but I have no date for the graduation Parade,even though I was a `pimply swot` and got the G/School trophy.
Other names(horfissers) on the course were Frame ,Budd,Ray,King ,Goddard,Dacre,Fisher,H-Baker,Wyer....
Taylor went to Shacks..later BA I believe ;I didn`t fancy being a co on Hastings/Bevs/Shacks,and we,as NCOs were not allowed to fly real jets,so I went to helos...

[sycamore]

Jenks, I really don`t remember whether any of the guys at either S-C,or Syerston,who `dropped out`,went to be Navs or whether we were training NCO Navs at the time....was only interested in the stick and pedals....only when I got to the Far did I meet my first Nav.and he was as old as my Father..!
I know `Marvellous` went to TwinPins,probably in Mid-East..? later met again at `Sheffield Doncaster RobinHood`/aka Finn on the `Wetdream`...as he was leaving for the CAA..?

[Old-Duffer]

In all of this Thread, I've seen no mention of F/Sgt Ron King. Ron returned from IIRC 225 Sqn and was commissioned at about that time (late 1964/5) and became a QHI. His photo appears in a history of 84 Sqn but I don't know what happened to him and can't track him through the Retired List.


Hanging on the wall of my downstairs loo (being posh, the house has more than one inside and all with a flush too) is a framed photo of Whirlwind 10 serial XP405. Ron brought this aircraft to RAF Upwood in June 1974, whilst scrounging a Skeeter which I had on 'my slop chit' and which was cleverly concealed in the middle of an empty 4400 sq ft aircraft shed.


Ron gave me a quick 20 minute flight around the local area, which proved to be the last time I went in the type.


O-D

[Fixed Cross]

Sycamore,

I had the good fortune to be Jock Naismiths NCO student on the course (156) which you followed after our graduation in May '63. Subsequently, after being commisioned in Jan '64 I returned to Syerston as a "scummed off" QFI. Took 3 more years of JP driving before I could grab a Hunter slot at Chivenor.

[MPN11]

In 65/66 at RAF Strubby, there was a regular weekend visitor. A Meteor from Chivenor would turn up late in the afternoon (unit callsign was either 63 or 69, IIRC) and out would step Sgt Boulter. His squeeze would pick him up in her Jaguar, and return him to the airfield on Monday morning for his return flight to Chivenor. No idea what he did at Chivenor - I doubt anyone saw him for more than a few minutes in dispersal ;)

[brakedwell]

Coffman Starter - That Anson is an Oxford :)

[Wander00]

Coff - whatever next - naughty step for you!

[26er]

MPN11 - But we know what he did near Strubby !!!!!!

[CoffmanStarter]

Sorry Chaps ... I must try harder ;)

[Wander00]

Flew at Cranwell in in 1964 with F Sgt Lawton, and in 65 with a F Sgt Elliott and also a M Plt Jackson. The latter ISTR had only one ear lobe following an accident.


Jacko did the final Nav Test for a good friend, I A-R, sadly no longer with us. As they walked out Jacko insisted that A-R swapped his immaculately prepared map for the dog eared version in Jacko's flying suit. A-R flew an immaculate test and on landing was asked if he had "Any questions".


"Yes, sir", says A-R, "why did you swap maps?"


"Because your Father bollocked me for being late for Pay Parade in 1948. Anyway, you passed. 98%".

[MPN11]

MPN11 - But we know what he did near Strubby !!!!!!

ISTR the lady in question lived in Skegness. You can't win them all ;)

[middlesbrough]

At Hullavington flew with Master pilots Trezise, Ward, Bryce, Moss, Reddell, Hunter, Waterman, Topp, and Culpin, all on Varsity and Valletta.
On Meteor NF 14 flew with Master pilot Chapell and Sgt Boulter.
What a wealth of experience, didn't really appreciate it as a sprog, 18 year old, Pilot Officer trainee navigator.

[Vampiredave]

There was a Sgt P A Boulter at Chivenor in 1967

23 June 1967: Meteor T.7 WH208 overshot runway at Bovingdon. Sgt PA Boulter, Gp Capt HL Calder-Jones.

He was still at Chivenor the following year when he flew a Meteor 8 at the Air Day.

[middlesbrough]

Sounds like the same man.

[smujsmith]

Just picked up on this thread, and must say that as an Aircraft Ground Engineer late 80s early 90s I was lucky enough to fly on several routes with Brian Skillicorn. An absolute gentleman, and always a pleasure to work with.

Smudge:ok:

[Top West 50]

An old and respected colleague at CFS, told me of his time at Feltwell, when all the students assembled in the Ante Room. The CI then announced that those standing at one end of the room were to become Officer Cadets - the others would be Sergeants!

[Old-Duffer]

Top West 50,


Do you really mean Feltwell?


Postwar, Feltwell was 3 FTS, then a Thor Missile base and afterwards the OCTU, at which ground branch candidates did their officer training, together with former serving non-commissioned personnel. It follows that in that last guise everybody was going for officer but as an FTS, arbitrary commissioning seems unlikely.


O-D

[MPN11]

Ahhh, JENKINS, why indeed commission pilots? :cool:

At the risk of diverting this thread from its intended course, I once had the task of justifying the number of officer ATCOs vs SNCOs who did, fundamentally, the same tasks on console. The answer lay, of course, in the "supervisory and executive" roles that needed to be filled by officers, in addition to those in senior Staff appointments. That led to a requirement for a certain proportion of JOs working their way through the system, whilst SNCOs/WOs just did the basic tasks. Thus it was that 60% officers and 40% SNCO/WO was validated.
Could not the same philosophy also be applied to aircrew? ;)

[Yellow Sun]

Cranwell in mid 60s, FS Lawton and MPlt Jackson; as previously mentioned; plus Mplts Saxby and Gunnell, all JP QFIs. There were a couple more MPlts on the Varsity, but I cannot recall their names. However all were gone by 1970. In the same period, MPlt Shepherd was a QFI at Oakington who was later to become a wizened but equally competent Fg Off. Shep was the last and oldest crossover that I can recall.

YS

[ACW418]

YS

Was this the same M Plt Shepherd who had been a Vampire QFI at Swinderby and then a JP3/4 QFI at Syerston. If so he was my instructor for a year at SJ and I could tell some interesting tales about him.

He had been thrown off three commissioning courses at Jurby for drinking too much but I am glad he finally got commissioned.

ACW

[Yellow Sun]

ACW418
Was this the same M Plt Shepherd who had been a Vampire QFI at Swinderby and then a JP3/4 QFI at Syerston. If so he was my instructor for a year at SJ and I could tell some interesting tales about him.

That's the man, definitely one of the air force's characters.

YS

[airborne_artist]

Smujsmith - Brian Skillicorn pretty much taught me to fly. He was by a mile the best QFI I experienced ;)

[Out Of Trim]

Uffington sb,

I knew Master Pilot Blackwell, he was an Air Traffic Controller at RAF Manston in 1979, I believe he had flown Spitfires, Hunters and I think the Lightning before he changed Branch. Still collected his flying pay!

He made quite an impression on me as a young LAC AATC, he was most respected by all at Manston.

I remember he was an avid Arsenal Fan!

Anyone know if he is still around?

[Danny42C]

As a former Sgt/Pilot myself (don't get me started on when I was a fortnight overdue for my "crown" - and never did get the money), I did, on my return as a Fg.Off. in '49, receive uniformly excellent instruction from P2 Lamont (Harvard), P2 Willis (Meteor), and as a Flt.Lt. from M/P Wiseman (Balliol), and Sgts McCockle and Quinney (Harvard).

(Ring any Bells ?)

Of course, up to retirement in '72, there were still old M/Ps and some old F/Sgts in ATC, and all over, and some still flying, and may be yet for aught I know. So, among the flood of reminiscences, may I draw attention to the #1 Post (eight years ago) from FirstFiveEighth:

"G'day,
Following a question from my uncle, an ex-RAF Flt.Sgt. Pilot (Mosquitos), I'm trying to ascertain when the RAF stopped recruiting and training NCO Pilots. I have the feeling it was pre-Korean War, possibly 1949".

So when did they ? Someone must know. Danny.

[Fixed Cross]

Danny,

The final batch of NCO pilots were recruited in 1961. All recruitment was limited to serving personnel and I believe not more than 100 were taken. Training was conducted from 61 to 64.

The success/failure rate was similar to commissioned students with the exception that a significant proportion were ex-NCO aircrew who, with the advantage of experience, mostly succeeded.

Again, most of the successful graduates from pilot training were either commissioned immediately or within a few years.

I recall that all NCO pilots were destined for multi-crew aircraft and underwent AFTS on the Varsity at Oakington. Many found their way into the rotary force. A few became first tour QFIs after which they entered the fast jet world.

Hopefully, my memory of those days has not failed too badly. I was one of them.

[brakedwell]

Fixed Cross, that ties up nicely with T.S leaving 152 Sqn in Bahrain and starting Pilot flying training in 1961, then ending up on choppers.

[Old Bricks]

Pete Boulter was flying as recce pilot on II(AC) Sqn Phantoms at Laarbruch in the early/mid 70s as a flt lt. ISTR that when he left the RAF he became a wheel in RAFA. At the same time, we had Jace Hill, also flt lt pilot on II(AC), who had also come from Chivenor, I think from being a FS not that long before.

[Fareastdriver]

A lot of our navigators on the V force were ex NCOs who were commissioned into the Branch List. They had their own tie; a ladder with just two rungs at the bottom.

[Danny42C]

Fixed Cross,

Thanks ! (As late as that ? - YLSNED).

Danny.

[donthaveone]

Coff
A bit of a long shot really ... But does anyone remember a Master Pilot by the name of Alec Hammond ? Sadly he is no longer with us, he passed away in 1999 aged 76.

I knew Alec Hammond, he was a F/Sgt flying the Varsity at Watton, becoming a M/Plt in 1962, before going to Germany. After that he was back in Lincolnshire but I don't think he was on Hunters.
Perhaps that picture might be from the Varsity Conversion Unit at Manby? Fg.Off Williams has too many medals for a new Fg.Off perhaps he was recently commissioned?
I also knew Flt.Lt Brian Clark in the picture and am pretty sure he was not on Hunters

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks Donthaveone ...

Interestingly I've also had a PM from another source which makes the Varsity link with Alec ... 1 Varisty Refresher Flying Squadron at Manby :ok:

I've got to pop out this morning ... I'll drop you a PM later today ;)

Kind regards ...

Coff.

[dmussen]

Our sweatbox (SIM) instructor on 232 at Marham in '73-'74 was a master pilot. I can't remember his name but shall never forget his sense of humour.

[Old-Duffer]

I seem to recall there was a good deal of ill feeling when some of the remaining 'Masters' (pilots & navigators, that is) were moved into ground tours from which there was little likelihood they would ever return to flying.


The story goes along the lines of: (a) no more flying pay and (b) you're now a warrant officer in a ground trade so get your badges changed.


Drifting away, the 1951 trade structure introduced the rank of Master Technician for those in the (mainly) engineering trades. However, other particularly skilled airmen in trades such as Equipment (Trade Group 18) and admin, could also hold the rank of Master Tech (and the lower ranks of chief, senior, Cpl and junior). In the 1964 trade structure this situation was abandoned but personnel 'wasted out' in the old ranks or until they were promoted. Hence at Brampton in the early 1980s, there was still a chief technician personnel admin clerk in the HQ.


O-D

[Al R]

Some threads here are as good as any historical document gathering dust in a forgotten archive. The two runged ladder on the tie, that CT scribbly. Brilliant.

[Old-Duffer]

Well Al R, then you'll like the: 'Twelve Month Unaccompanied Tour Tie'.


The motif of the tie comprised the roman numerals XII, beneath which was the female sex symbol of a circle with cross beneath. In the circle was the symbol for a 'No Entry' road sign.


The tie was generally not available until one was almost tour-ex.


One chap had the tie but it had a cigarette burn strategically in the 'No Entry' bit.


I suppose in these enlightened times, we would need to have two ties available to cover - how can I put this delicately - the more liberal interpretation of what constitutes sexual abstinence!


Old Duffer

[Al R]

How many thousands of items of military ephemera must there be out there? Enough of that from me, back to the thread!

[oxenos]

"a ladder with just two rungs at the bottom.

The version of the tie I recall had lots of rungs, but the third one up from the bottom was broken.

[MPN11]

My apologies for late response to earlier posts, but delighted to hear that my old "r/t acquaintance" Sgt Boulter did well :ok:

[teeteringhead]

The version of the tie I recall had lots of rungs, but the third one up from the bottom was broken. I recall that one as a Supplementary List tie ...

In the days when you took a promotion exam (B Exam) for "promotion" to Flt Lt. And if you didn't take it, you ended up as a 38 yo Fg Off - but having flown all the time.

[oxenos]

"In the days when you took a promotion exam (B Exam) for "promotion" to Flt Lt. And if you didn't take it, you ended up as a 38 yo Fg Off - but having flown all the time."
I did not take the "C", stayed a Flt. Lt. to 38, and was always current, even through a "Ground" tour.
Now whether they would have promoted me is another question. I was once told by a senior oficer that I had a reputation for arguing with senior officers. "Not at all" says I. "I see what they mean" says he.

[Croqueteer]

Sycamore, I think the "George" you refer to is George Lee, who ended up a Wng/Cmdr on Jaguars. I was a u/t Sgt pilot on the same Cerney course as fellow ex-app Dick Wharmby but was chopped in the last week due to a daft "Bends" run, and confined to the back end of the Shack. Ironically many years later as a 146 skipper, I had George Lee as my F/O, and an excellent F/O he was! We had a lot of good times. He also appeared on telly landing the 146 at London City. He is now i/c the flying club at Wyton, still flying every day.

[sycamore]

Croq, yes ,upon reflection it was George Lee; never met him as he was a course or two ahead....PM later..Syc

[5aday]

My father - David 'Pop' Morton was a M.Plt and he retired in 1970 from Varsities at the NBS at R.A.F. Lyndholme. Prior to that all manner of aeroplanes including Hunters in Gutersloh and one tour on the Thor at Helmswell/Bardney.
After the RAF he joined SOAF based in Bait and I used to see him in Masirah when we went through on 203 Nimrods.

[Magic Mushroom]

When I held at Binbrook in 1987 there was a Master Pilot working in the Lightning Sim. I recall him saying that he'd last flown Javelins and that he was one of 3 Master Pilots still serving, the other 2 were in ATC.

Regards,
MM

[5aday]

The name Saxby cropped up earlier on. Might it be the same Dad Saxby who was instructing at OATS Oxford for commercial ab initios?

[Fixed Cross]

MM,

I think you are refering to the late Master Pilot Tam Kirk. Tam flew Javelins with 85 Sqn at West Malling in 1960. I was his Nav Rad as an NCO Radio Observer and for a time we were the only NCO aircrew on the squadron.

A year later Tam recrewed with Master Navigater Phil Tyler (and I happily departed to Pilot Training). By then (61) 85 was at West Raynham and several more NCO back seaters had arrived.

[Magic Mushroom]

Thanks FC,
I'm afraid I only met him once and I don't recall his name. He was a gent however and I seem to recall him being a fairly big chap. I'm sorry to see he's no longer with us.

He was taking great delight in giving 'Doof' (IMcW) a hard time with radar presentations in the sim!

Regards,
MM

[Torchy]

Great thread......I have a few answers to questions mentioned earlier:

M Plt Shardlow was the Lyneham ops chap. Terrific raconteur...once told me a story about flying a Brigand towing a target with an LAC as the target operator. I can't remember the details accurately, but it was a story about someone writing something offensive on the banner which he was tasked to tow at some display or other...when he was told on the radio what was on the banner, it was only the fact that he had an LAC on board that stopped him ditching the ac!

Blacky Blackwell is no longer with us...regaled us with stories such as changing seats in the Meteor whilst airborne......

The M PIlot at Marham was Vic Burroughs, great chap and good story teller too!

[roving]

Squadron Leader C. E. SLATER, M.B.E., D.F.C., A.F.C. (1305635) plus [Queen's Commendation for Valuable Service in the Air ]

Was a Master Pilot before being commissioned 1955.

His enlistment service number shows he enlisted in Blackpool in 1940.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/40620/supplement/6141

He retired in 1977.

His flying career would have made a good book, had he been given permission to write it.

[Wander00]

Roving - sounds interesting, can you tell us more

[roving]

Transporting sand coloured berets in and out of interesting places.

edit:

He was a pilot on 267 Sqn in "Malaya' from 1955 to 1958 and was one of several decorated in 1958 for operations there. My father was Flt Cmr. The Sqn was flying pioneers into the jungle. During this time the SAS was reforming there.

His claps show he later was involved in Borneo (as well as Malaya) -- I suspect in Operation Claret, where the SAS were engaged:. See the wiki link.

Between Malaya and Borneo he may have been involved in other operations overseas. Skilled Pioneer pilots with experience of special operations were probably pretty thin on the ground.

I spent nearly 3 years in KL joining my father -- who had been posted there in Mid 1955 -- the second half of which we lived on the Camp, which was a very small and tight knit community.

Last night I made a search on Google and by chance discovered this. An auction held in 2015.

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/lockdales/catalogue-id-lo10047/lot-1aad0434-ae71-46ff-94e5-a4ba00bc0577

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

It's Fred Ayris Low Ball. He too was subsequently commissioned, but not before he'd got the AFM - not sure what for.

Fred ended his days with Bristow in Nigeria at the end of the 90s. AFAIK he is still enjoying his retirement.

NEO

[Danny42C]

FED (#102) and Al R (#108) et al,

Should've been a tie with a one-rung ladder, for us unfortunates on Limited (ie Nil) Career Permanent Commissions ! Are any left ? - all dead, I suppose (except me !)

The idea surfaced in 1952. Anyone know when it ended ? (the advantage was that the RAF had thrown away the only stick they'd had to beat you with). Although some managed to transfer to Branch Commissions, with a slim chance of a "scraper". But not in ATC, AFAIK.

Well the pension has come in handy, at least !

Danny.

[roving]

More detail here.

https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2016/06/03/the-raf-overseas/

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1957/1957%20-%200879.html?search=267%20sqn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Claret

[Blacksheep]

As a bit of pedantry I have seen Master Aircrew described here as "NCO Pilots". As Warrant Officers they are neither Non-Commissioned nor Commissioned, they are somewhere in between. ;)

[Rossian]

....the first crew I joined in Ballykelly in 1965 had a Sgt co-pilot. It was heavily hinted that he should be commissioned - he declined. It was then suggested that he might not be allowed to remain flying. He opted to leave and went to BOAC/BEA not sure which.
Slightly before that time a Sgt pilot on a Shack course ahead of me was sent away for a w/e and came back as a Flying Officer - yes, it really was that quick!
When I was doing my flying training at Topcliffe there were F/S pilots, Master Pilots and Master Navs. I learned a lot from them.

The Ancient Mariner

[Fareastdriver]

When I went to Labuan in 1965 there were two first tour NCO pilots on the squadron, Jim Lawn and Dave Cramp. Jim did my initial theatre conversion and later on in life Dave did my Commanders Check when I joined Bristows in 1978.

Jim was at Redhill scooting around with the DH 125.

[Crromwellman]

When I was in Malta in 1965 there was a M/Plt "Taff" George on the Comms Flt who flew Valettas, including the VIP one. In 1969 on my photo interpreters course at Bassingbourn, there were three M/Plts who were being re-mustered into ground trades: M/Plt Jerry Cullum and two other whose names escape me

[bspatz]

Of interest I was on the same IOT as Fred Ayris in 1969 and there was also a second NCO pilot namely Leo Faulkner who was also commissioned. At the time the view was that the RAF was trying to commission all the NCO pilots to ensure that all actively flying were officers.

[Q-SKI]

Warrant Officer "Taff" Walker was still instructing on the good old Wessex on 240 OCU at Odiham in 1979 and possibly a little after, I think he was the last flying RAF NCO pilot. I'm not sure when the RAF ceased recruiting NCO pilots though.

Don't forget his trusty hound Shulla !! (Spelling may be suspect).

[ricardian]

USAF has a shortage of pilots and is considering introducing enlisted (non-commissioned) pilots (https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/03/31/air-force-may-approve-enlisted-pilots-first-time-75-years.html)

[pgaruk]

For info I was the last Sgt Pilot to graduate on 3 Apr 1964 at Leeming. I ended up being the last one because of a recourse with broken nose/hospital (Rugby). Great and fun times - ended up in the SAAF as a Lt Col (Commandant) and flying/running a cargo airline in ME and Africa. HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO THE FINEST AIR FORCE IN THE WORLD - it certainly trained me well.

[NutLoose]

:)

.........

[Alan Mills]

I seem to remember that there was a Master Pilot around BK at the same kind of time

I heard that he did apply for a commission, and at Biggin Hill was asked who Macnamara was (USA Sec Def), "the leader of the band" was his reply! Biggin was not amused. The crew on 204 had a Sgt Pilot at the same time Jim C.... My next tour, on 205 had 2 NCO Pilots, flying on the same crew

[Powers]

As was the norm in the mid 1960's, when young RAF airmen like me conversed with Flight Sergeants we respectfully called them 'Flight'. This was OK until I had to share an office at Khormaksar with an ex NCO pilot named Flight Sergeant Flight! - a tricky situation for a 20 year old!. However, to avoid embarrasment he kindly agreed to be known as 'Chief''. A nice man. Regards....Paul

[NutLoose]

Hehehehe :D


welcome to the forums BTW.

[racingrigger]

As was the norm in the mid 1960's, when young RAF airmen like me conversed with Flight Sergeants we respectfully called them 'Flight'. This was OK until I had to share an office at Khormaksar with an ex NCO pilot named Flight Sergeant Flight! - a tricky situation for a 20 year old!. However, to avoid embarrasment he kindly agreed to be known as 'Chief''. A nice man. Regards....Paul

Before the advent of Chief Technicians in the RAF, Flight Sergeants were often known and addressed as "Chief" or "Chieffy"

[Yellow Sun]

As was the norm in the mid 1960's, when young RAF airmen like me conversed with Flight Sergeants we respectfully called them 'Flight'. This was OK until I had to share an office at Khormaksar with an ex NCO pilot named Flight Sergeant Flight! - a tricky situation for a 20 year old!. However, to avoid embarrasment he kindly agreed to be known as 'Chief''. A nice man. Regards....Paul

Flight Sergeant Flight, who was D Sqn Flight Sergeant at Cranwell until about 1967.

YS

[ian16th]

Before the advent of Chief Technicians in the RAF, Flight Sergeants were often known and addressed as "Chief" or "Chieffy"

The rank of Chief Tech came into being in 1951!

Flt Sgt's were called 'Chief' for many years after that.

Dunno if they still are.

Chief Tech and Junior Tech were the only Tech ranks to survive the 1964 changes. J/T of course has since disapeared

[Q-SKI]

Don’t forget Taff Walker’s hound Shula!

[rogerg]

I was nearly the last NCO pilot as I was selected at Biggin Hill to be an NCO pilot. While waiting for my course they cancelled that rank, So back to Biggin Hill for another selection procedure. When they asked if I was interested in a different trade, maybe Navigator, at least I could say I have already been assessed for pilot training so "no thanks"

[NutLoose]

Don’t forget Taff Walker’s hound Shula!

I still wonder what happened to Taff.

[gwynorod]

I seem to remember that there was a Master Pilot around BK at the same kind of time
There was a Master Pilot at Ballykelly on 204 in the early 60s - I think his name was Bill? Burgess

[Ian Hammond]

Hello, Alec HAMMOND is my Dad and as you know he sadly passed away in 1999. Flying was his life and if you knew him you will know that he didn’t suffer fools gladly and had little time for ‘desk pilots’. A man I’m sure that rubbed a few up the wrong way but to me a great Dad and friend and I’m welling up just writing this as I miss him so much, (I’m 68!). After retiring from the reserves at Manston Mum and Dad moved from Mayfield up to Grantown on Speyside where he indulged his love of golf and after several years they moved south to Woodhall Spa (where Mum still lives), where he continued golfing on the old Woodhall Spa RAF course.
we live in France and both Mum and Dad have visited on many occasions and we’ve had many happy times.
It was really lovely to read your comments and thank you for your kind words,
Kind Regards
Ian HAMMOND
[email protected]

[NutLoose]

Hello Ian, Sadly Cofffman starter who posted the original photo's is also no longer with us :( if you cannot view them properly there is a download to make photobucket images show again.

I will PM donthaveone for you as he may not see this

[Shackeng]

An ex brat Cpl was celebrating his selection as NCO pilot at Abingdon in the early ‘60’s, and arriving back at camp with his buddy, they decided that the decorators weren’t doing a very good job, and so proceeded to improve their efforts. The 252 was deemed so serious, it ended up before Staish, who decided to let them off with a fine as our hero was only going to be an NCO pilot, and he didn’t want to ruin his career. NCO pilot training finished as he commenced training, so he was commissioned, and then got into further trouble as an officer!

[GGR155]

There was a Master Pilot at Lyneham, albeit not on flying duties but managing an ops desk, in 1977. He'd flown everything, everywhere. Brigands were his favourite for stories.

Sorry to be a bit late to the table with this but I worked in ASCOC with a Master Pilot Ken Shardlow, he was still around in 77 IIRC. He was a larger than life character whose tales of Brigand and beyond kept us all entertained on nights. He sported a full handlebar moustache and was very fond of a pint of best. If this is your man I am pleased to fill in a few blanks.

[lsh]

Jim Lawn was the last NCO helicopter pilot trained. You can find him on the monthly LAA "zoom" meetings, also 230 Sqn Assocn.

lsh
:E

[212man]

Jim Lawn was the last NCO helicopter pilot trained. You can find him on the monthly LAA "zoom" meetings, also 230 Sqn Assocn.

lsh
:E
Was he subsequently with Bristow? Retired flying the HS125.

[sycamore]

`Ish`, sorry to correct you ,but you should refer to #75/24/10/14,#78,,and #136 by `pgaruk`#.I was on 160 Cse. at Syerston and awarded `Wings `on 20/3/64 along with Bill Taylor,who went to Shacks;I went to helos in May `64.Later commisioned in Dec.64,on posting to 225 in Borneo..

Jim Lawn had probably graduated from Syerston in late`63,then to helos and then 230..I do not recall our paths crossing at Ternhill in `64.

[lsh]

`Ish`, sorry to correct you ,but you should refer to #75/24/10/14,#78,,and #136 by `pgaruk`#.I was on 160 Cse. at Syerston and awarded `Wings `on 20/3/64 along with Bill Taylor,who went to Shacks;I went to helos in May `64.Later commisioned in Dec.64,on posting to 225 in Borneo..

Jim Lawn had probably graduated from Syerston in late`63,then to helos and then 230..I do not recall our paths crossing at Ternhill in `64.

No probs!
Jim told me this a year or two back.
lsh

[lsh]

Was he subsequently with Bristow? Retired flying the HS125.

That sounds familiar.

lsh

[CharlieJuliet]

I was, I think, 186 course at Cerney ('63). As I remember there was a gentleman who had been medically recoursed and was still a Sgt waiting to graduate who supervised our bang seat demo on he rig.. I remember that there was an SRO at Cerney saying that failing OQs one could no longer transfer to NCO Aircrew. We had at least 2 Master Pilot instructors at Acklington, and when I went to Manby as a co on Varsities there were several Master Pilots going through refresher training. I don't think I flew with any more although there were still NCO Aircrew on 85 when I held there on the Meatbox in '65.

[brakedwell]

There was a Sergeant Signaller on 152 Sqn in Bahrain in 1959/61 called Tony Stafford, who flew with me a lot on Twin Pioneers and Pembrokes and we got on very well.I returned to the UK in August 1961 and heard Tony had been accepted for pilot training as an NCO in 1962. I understand he went on to helicopters, but this was not confirmed and I never met him again.

[roadsman]

My Late father Master Nav John Lennard flew with Sgt Noddy Eden a pilot on Varsitys at Topcliffe between 1968 and 1970. I don't think Dad ever knew his real name and Noddy never explained why he hadn't been promoted or commissioned.

[SonOfRegTaylor]

There were 2 NCO QFIs on 1 Sqn at Cranwell 64. time, and ISTR each disappeared for a few weeks and reappeared as a fg off. Cannot remember the names but will look in my log book
One of them may well have been my father, R H W "Reg" Taylor. Does anybody remember him? - would welcome contact from anyone who does. He went on to instruct at Syerston and Leeming. Top photo in attachment taken in Aden, 1958 or '59.

[XJ683]

FS Jim Lorton was Cranwell based & he occasionally came over to Barkston Heath to frighten all the studes!
He disappeared for a short while & came back as Fg Off Jim Lorton. He was still scary!

[John Sawyer]

Re Lyneham.The SWO sname was Baird ,who had a cracking daugter. There was also a Cpl in Air Movements who had wings ,cica 1962

[John Sawyer]

I flew a bit as a crewman with Mel Buckly on 103 in 1964