It's Official - Virgin Blue to Get Jungle Jets

[Oliver Klozof]

From the VB website...

November 2006

Virgin Blue Orders 20 Embraer 'E-Jets' - New Fleet strategy for Australia's 'New World Carrier'
Thursday 2 November 2006: Virgin Blue Holdings today announced a major new investment with an
AUD$950 million list price order for 20 aircraft from the Embraer E-Jet family.

With deliveries commencing in 2007, the order includes firm commitments for 11 EMBRAER 190 and 3 EMBRAER 170 jet aircraft and options for 6 additional E-Jets.

The Brazilian jets – the first of their type to operate scheduled services in the Australasian region will give the Virgin Blue Group significant additional operating flexibility, while increasing efficiency through lower fuel burn.

Both aircraft types will be fitted with leather Elite seats, the widest economy seat offered worldwide on a single aisle aircraft. Virgin Blue will configure its jets in a single class, 2 x 2 seat layout.

“This acquisition is a key step-change for Virgin Blue under our New World Carrier strategy announced last year,” said the airline’s Chief Executive Officer, Mr Brett Godfrey.

“Our current fleet of Boeing 737-700 and 737-800 aircraft provides sufficient capacity to serve key routes in the Australian, trans-Tasman and Pacific Island markets, however it is not optimal on all markets,” said Mr Godfrey.

“This new jet will enhance our ability to serve the corporate market by more accurately matching seat capacity and frequency to passenger demand.

“We believe the Embraer E-jet family provides jets with large capabilities, which will enable us to operate the right sized aircraft, not only for specific routes, but for specific days and even particular times of the day and night.”

“Virgin Blue will have the ability to complement and “right size” our operations and we are currently considering a range of operating possibilities which are yet to be confirmed," added Mr Godfrey.

Coinciding with Virgin Blue's order, Embraer will bring an EMBRAER 190 aircraft to Australia later this month for a national demonstration tour, including a roadshow for Virgin Blue staff throughout the country.

As of September 30, 2006, Embraer had delivered 184 E-Jets to customers in Canada, United States, United Kingdom, Italy, Germany, Finland, Poland, India, Hong Kong, Saudi Arabia, Ecuador and Panama.

“We are delighted that Virgin Blue has selected our E-Jets,” said Frederico Fleury Curado, Embraer Executive Vice-President, Airline Market.

“It is particularly satisfying to know that our technologically advanced and fuel efficient E-Jets fit the bill for this ‘New World Carrier’ who is once again poised to change the airline landscape in Australia and the South Pacific. “

The EMBRAER 190s ordered by the Virgin Blue Holdings group have a maximum range of 2,300 nautical miles, or 4,260 kilometres, enabling them to fly with a full payload from Sydney to anywhere in Australia, or beyond to New Zealand and a range of destinations throughout the Pacific. The EMBRAER 190 seating configuration can range from 98 to 114 seats.

The smaller EMBRAER 170s can fly 2,000 nautical miles, or 3,706 kilometres, enabling them to operate from Sydney to anywhere on Australia’s eastern seaboard, as far north as Darwin, or from Adelaide or central Australia to Perth, as well as from eastern Australia to New Zealand and parts of the Pacific. The EMBRAER 170 seating configuration can range from 70 to 80 seats.

Virgin Blue's E-Jets also will include extensive use of new weight-saving materials, fly-by-wire electronic control and new-technology fuel efficient engines reducing both fuel burn and exhaust emissions – a vital consideration in Virgin Blue’s selection of new aircraft.

In addition, the E-Jets meet the most stringent restrictions on aircraft noise, reducing noise around airports and beneath flight paths, as well as minimising cabin noise levels for passengers.

For more information about the Embraer E-Jets, visit www.embraer.com.

[limpwindsock]

At last!!!!!!!!!!!!

Been a long time coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

[jack red]

Congratulations VB ..............................This is really BAD NEWS for Qantas and JetStar.:D

[topgun0007]

Jack Red,

Why, QF could rekit the B717 and undercut their grass :)

[sprucegoose]

I don't think the 717 has the same mission capabilty. The 190 will be a good machine.

[Aussie]

I guess VB will start recruiting soon then eh?

AUssie

[The Pirate]

The 717, operated properly, could give the E-Jet a run for its money, literally. There are 6 still sitting in BNE ........... bang 'em back on line I say!

There are people out there that would sell their eldest child into slavery for another go at the diesel. (God bless her!)

[disco_air]

How much is an embraer endorsement? :E := :hmm:

[sinala1]

How much is an embraer endorsement?

Rumours of a bonding system have been floating around recently.... who knows! :confused: :}

[disco_air]

Well let that rumour perpetuate, it sounds promising! :ok:

...disco

[hoss]

anyone know what destinations they are targeting initially? It will be interesting to see if/how Qantas respond!

:)

[illusion]

Let us hope they start a Perth base. There is a HUGE untapped resources market that would feed nicely into the VB terminal. By-passing an overloaded QF infrastructure.

[whogivesa????]

Qantas will need to act quickly, especially if DJ deploys the E-Jets on the Q400 routes (SYD-CBR, BNE-CBR, BNE-ROK, BNE-MKY, BNE-GLD and BNE-EMD). Up until a few years ago more than half of the above routes were operated by jets (NJS with the 146 and FWA with the F28/100).

As topgun007 said, Qantas could get put the B717’s back on these routes or make use of the 146 again (short term) or have Skywest and/or Alliance operate their Fokker’s on behalf of Qantas.

If there’s a jet and a turboprop operating the same route, Joe public will always go for the jet (no matter how old it is).

[podbreak]

Congratulations VB ..............................This is really BAD NEWS for Qantas and JetStar.:D

Perhaps for QFlink, can't see how it would affect the * or mainline Q, they'll be put on different routes. The 170s might give rex a little shake up, but at the end of the day 'joe public' also want to go cheap cheap cheap, and turboprops are just that on the shorter sectors...

[sprucegoose]

I doubt the fares will be more than the prop fares where they compete.

[Magoodotcom]

As topgun007 said, Qantas could get put the B717’s back on these routes or make use of the 146 again (short term) or have Skywest and/or Alliance operate their Fokker’s on behalf of Qantas.

Hmmm...Embraer or 146? :hmm: I know which one I'd choose, and it AINT the 146! The Embraer is a really good counter to the Q400s - good move DJ. :ok:
Magoo

[Capt Claret]

Magoodotcom

Do people really choose an aircraft type to travel on?

Whilst it was many years ago, when I worked in TAA res, no one phoned and said, "I wanna book on the 727 flight to Sydney".

People book to get from A to B, and the vast majority just take what they get without asking what type.

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

Whilst it was many years ago, when I worked in TAA res, no one phoned and said, "I wanna book on the 727 flight to Sydney".
Unless you're a plane spotter. There seems to be quite a few here nowadays:ugh::rolleyes:
What's prune coming to?

[alangirvan]

People didn't ask for the 727? On hot days in Canberra airline staff were begging head office for 727s rather than DC-9s because the DC-9s had to leave half the passengers behind.


When turboprops did start to re appear on Canberra-Sydney (Ansett Fokker 50s, then Dash 8s for Australian Airlines) some people did ask if there was a jet two hours either side of the prop departure. Nowadays if you want a jet you will have a very long wait.

[Capn Bloggs]

717s verses Jungle Jets? Like swatting flies. Bring em on! :}
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v151/webpixx/prune/717-and-190.jpg

[whogivesa????]

If there is a 146/F100 on the ramp and a Dash 8-400, Joe public will take the jet over a turboprop. The jet could be 20 years old, the fact is the public see jets as being safer and more modern than propeller aircraft. Qantas dropped the ball by replacing the 146 with the Q-400, their replacment should have been a jet (B717 or E-Jet)

The E-Jets will allow DJ to operate the same frequency (with all jets) to smaller cities/towns that current receive only a turboprop service or 1-2 jet flights a day and the rest of the flights are turboprops.

15-20 years ago places such as Tamworth and Albury had jet connections from Sydney, now they only have turboprops. With the E-Jets coming there is a very good chance they will once again have a jet service.

Remember when Richard launched Virgin Blue, he stated he wanted to fly to towns that had a population of 100000, with the E-Jets this may finally happen.

[pakeha-boy]

.....sort of hard to argue the #,s on the 170,s and 190,S.........We have a few 170,s around the fleet and have a Huge# of 190,s ordered............talked to the the blokes that fly-em......... their only complaint....the $$$$$$$ they are being paid to fly them.......

A Capt on one of the 190,s will make about $80k/annum US....most senior F/O,,s(on the A320) make way more than that,so going back from F/0 to capt and earning less has become a major issue.....would be interesred to hear Virgins payscales????....

havent been in the 190 flightdeck but have jumpseated the 170...and men...its a tidy little piece of wahine for sure,well laid out....except for that stupid steering wheel yoke thing(bring it on CC).....all in all a nice way to spend a day in the office........ PB

[Capn Bloggs]

except for that stupid steering wheel yoke thing
Reminds me of my Concorde test flying days! :} :ok:

[pakeha-boy]

Capn Bloggs...your right mate....managed to get a couple of tiki tours in the Concorde as we used the same gates in KJFK..1-8.....brownosed those "junior pommy" boys for a look-see....and yes,the yokes are similar....beauty mate!!!!...PB

[Whiskery]

This (http://www.bfound.net/det-entry.aspx?jobid=42760&CoId=43&rq=5) will be the place to start, But I believe they are doing an up-grade on the software so it may be a week or so before you can submit.

Good luck :ok:

[neville_nobody]

Shags

your employer will be loving your work! :hmm: Thanks for the endo I'm off to VB

[The Bullwinkle]

except for that stupid steering wheel yoke thing
Anybody else remember "VH-XFI" ???
Motor Bike handlebar, and no controls at all on the right !!!!!

[hoss]

Well Shags, IF VB are looking for loyalty your in for a challenge to prove it.

Anyway, hope it all works out:) .

[rescue 1]

Shags, It's bit like the chicken or the egg or story??

I'm not sure what came first - pay your own type rating, or reduced T&C's.

What I do know though is Pilots taking advantage of business's that pay for type ratings, and then nick off without any return of service, are not doing the rest of us any favour!

[ANCaptain]

Reminds me of my Concorde test flying days! :} :ok:


Sir ....... I didn't know that you had flown "Concorde"......... I'll salute next time I see you :rolleyes:

[Bugsmasha]

Skippers on the jungle jet to get 129K and F/O's 65%.

[Capn Bloggs]

ANCaptain, no need for the "sir". Just "captain" will do! :D

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Virgins with Brazilians...

Sounds like a PORN site!!!!:eek:

[Transition Layer]

Apparently a "Brazilian Party" is being held later this month for staff. Am I the only one who's thinking that to keep in the spirit of the event, there should be some special "entry requirements" for all the hotties attending? I am willing to donate my services free of charge to man the door.

On the other hand, at QF I guess I can look forward to when the A380 arrives and they throw a dugong party - plenty of the old boilers would do a pretty good impression I reckon!

:} TL

[Deejay 1]

If there is a 146/F100 on the ramp and a Dash 8-400, Joe public will take the jet over a turboprop. The jet could be 20 years old, the fact is the public see jets as being safer and more modern than propeller aircraft. Qantas dropped the ball by replacing the 146 with the Q-400, their replacment should have been a jet (B717 or E-Jet)
The E-Jets will allow DJ to operate the same frequency (with all jets) to smaller cities/towns that current receive only a turboprop service or 1-2 jet flights a day and the rest of the flights are turboprops.
15-20 years ago places such as Tamworth and Albury had jet connections from Sydney, now they only have turboprops. With the E-Jets coming there is a very good chance they will once again have a jet service.
Remember when Richard launched Virgin Blue, he stated he wanted to fly to towns that had a population of 100000, with the E-Jets this may finally happen.

Ummm no-one seems to have mentioned the security side of things at such ports as Tamworth, Albury etc. Do they have the requrired security measures that allow jet traffic? If not the who what and where comes into play. The pax will obviously pay for all for of this, prop or jet, but regional communities want frequency more so than jets.

In Saturday's Advertiser it was reported that Port Lincoln might see one VB jet a week. Hmmm. The council which has about 1500 ratepayers going to cough up the $10 - $15 mill for airport expansion? Don't think so. Rannbo's Government? Well they've just cut $20 mill from Education so also unlikely.

But VB might go after the BHP gig at Roxby which will have a jet capable runway soon.

Agree that jets are all so much more sexier than props, face value really.
And also agree that QF should have looked at the 170/190 series given that they all went for a fly in it, when it toured a couple of years ago.

Rex must be somewhat concerned depending on the routes chosen, but they seem to have a loyal following in many parts.

Airnorth? Will they continue down the jet path, or is the SP correct in that they are really after the charter bizness.

Interesting times ahead.

Rock On!

[Roger Standby]

Capn Bloggs,

I hope you called yourself "THE Speedbird...":}

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

Ummm no-one seems to have mentioned the security side of things at such ports as Tamworth, Albury etc. Do they have the requrired security measures that allow jet traffic? If not the who what and where comes into play. The pax will obviously pay for all for of this, prop or jet, but regional communities want frequency more so than jets.
DJ, the security measures are exactly the same for props as they are for jets. If the outport has no screening, then PAX will have to be screened at the first port that has screening facilities. For VB, that will probably be the capital city. Otherwise it means all get off, go through the screening and re-board.

[ditzyboy]

Aircraft over a certain no of seats must be screened no matter what. Is it 72 or 100?

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

Nope,
If you go into somewhere that has a sterile area, like Sydney, you must be screened no matter what. If screening is not available at the outport then the pax must be screened prior to entry of any of the terminals - even if they're just getting off, because they are required to transit the sterile area.

Aircraft capacity is irrelevant.

[rescue 1]

Anybody able to provide details on the delivery schedule?

All press releases to date have been very scant on detail??:confused:

[Warped Wings]

August 07 according to an AFAP memo. 3 aircraft to be delivered in 07 and the remainder in 2008 from memory.

[ditzyboy]

Aircraft capacity is irrelevant.

I am aware regional pax are screened on arrival in sydney. However I thought that with aircraft over a certain capacity passengers had to be screened prior to the flight. Theoretically if a 737 was to fly DBO-SYD the pax would need to be screened in DBO where as a Dh8 could have paxed screened in SYD on arrival. Is that not correct?

Can't find anything after a quick look on the DOTARS website.

[Break Right]

Why worry about that sort of crap.:mad: Just look after the pointy end and you will have less heart burn!!!:ugh: :ugh: :D

[low_flyer]

Well, I'm no expert but I am pretty sure that the Aviation Transport Security Act 2004 and associated regulations only require passenger screening for "jet air services" which only applies to a portion of the "security-controlled" airports.

All "security-controlled" airports must have at least one trained person to screen passengers in case DOTARS ups the screening requirements.

Therefore, the introduction of a jet air service will require a terminal upgrade (ie a sterile area) and ongoing operational costs associated with the passenger screening.

Thats definitely something for these places to consider.

LF

[rescue 1]

Thanks Warped.

[Deejay 1]

DJ, the security measures are exactly the same for props as they are for jets. If the outport has no screening, then PAX will have to be screened at the first port that has screening facilities. For VB, that will probably be the capital city. Otherwise it means all get off, go through the screening and re-board.

So Tommy/Tammy Terrorist will be able to board at an unscreened airport with an arsenal of weapons and have his/her way with the plane?
Or even worse secret them on the plane which does a SYD/MEL/CBR leg for example?

I don't think so.

I don't Joe/Joanne Public will take too kindly that a JET will not have a screening done. It was bad enough out ports like Port Lincoln, Ceduna, even Kangaroo Island with many pax querying lack of security.

I think Ditzy Boy is heading down the right track something to do with capacity, but then again it might be form of propulsion.

Look at ADL at the moment. All REX pax jump in a bus that gets driven to their "terminal". How easy is it to commander a bus, even if its got Keanu Reeves or Sandra Bullock driving it.

I still think that if jets start operating to regional ports (lets call them category 2 ie no full time AFP or full luggage screening) then their is going to be a truckload of infrastructure to be built, manned and eventually paid for by Joe/Joanne Public just so that port can now have jets flying into it.

And I'm not even going start on the tech issues that these planes might need ie all the nav gear, emergency response teams and so on.
I have no doubt that there are more qualified people who will read this and advise exactly what a jet will need going into say Albury or places where VB think they'll pick up 100,000 plus people.

And will the Govt market move across? Not likely if they are entitled to business class.

The Kendell CRJ in flight service was brilliant, the plane was faster and quieter than the 146, Ansett forced some of those routes to Kendell to operate as they were making a huge loss, and the Govt market screamed blue murder due to no biz class. Senior Ansett people even blamed Kendell for this, which goes to show how much these dudes knew what their regional service was offering!

Rock on!

[coaldemon]

Wow and I heard that the Crj was the second most expensive aircraft to run in the Ansett fleet according to the administrators ( and as accountants they would have an unbiased opinion) , and that would be why Bombardier have thirty + of them in the desert while Embraer sell everything on the production line. Bombardier are reacting to this by making 1300 workers redundant in Ireland (as you would). Lets send that category D machine to Albury that makes sense and should make us heaps of money. Lets face it the Embraer for Virgin will be used to enchance routes that a 737 should never have been on like Sydney-Mackay and Adelaide-Hobart not take over fully fledged 737 routes as Ansett tried to do. Lets hope they have a better result than Rod.......

[maxter]

So Tommy/Tammy Terrorist will be able to board at an unscreened airport with an arsenal of weapons and have his/her way with the plane?
Or even worse secret them on the plane which does a SYD/MEL/CBR leg for example?
I don't think so.
I don't Joe/Joanne Public will take too kindly that a JET will not have a screening done. It was bad enough out ports like Port Lincoln, Ceduna, even Kangaroo Island with many pax querying lack of security.
I think Ditzy Boy is heading down the right track something to do with capacity, but then again it might be form of propulsion.
Look at ADL at the moment. All REX pax jump in a bus that gets driven to their "terminal". How easy is it to commander a bus, even if its got Keanu Reeves or Sandra Bullock driving it.
I still think that if jets start operating to regional ports (lets call them category 2 ie no full time AFP or full luggage screening) then their is going to be a truckload of infrastructure to be built, manned and eventually paid for by Joe/Joanne Public just so that port can now have jets flying into it......!

Why don't we put blockades around all the cities and get every truck inspected in case it carries a load of fertilizer that turns into a bomb, or a million other things that some could do. Armed gaurds on city buses in case they get hijacked. You have got more chance of being killed by a pack of 'killer bees' than a terrorist.:mad:

This airport security screening etc is a load of sh.t and everyone knows it but it makes 'important people' feel good & feel they are doing something. Typical political feel good crap that goes on all the time once a politician gets his hand on something that may get some votes. :yuk:

There are so many holes in the cheese why even raise these issues and encourage some 'prick in high places' to look for more ways to waste our hard earned tax dollars. How many threads has there been on Prune re the stupidity of the current system. DON'T ENCOURAGE THEM, they get enough ideas that look good but ineffective, without our help.:(

I live in hope that common sense will prevail one day but I guess I will die a dreamer.:(

Give the passengers in some of these more remote places the chance of a decent service instead of some 'cigar tube' or irish shed that should have been scrapped years ago. (I do realise thay may just about be phased out now but Sydney-Dubbo-Parkes in a Metro recently was not that exciting).

[Big Hairy Potatoes]

From the Embraer website
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c139/pecka1/VirginBlueEMB190and170.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c139/pecka1/VirginBlueE170.jpg
Looking forward to getting these!!!!

[wirgin blew]

Looks good. How do they match up for flight times over the longer distances? Do they have cargo bins underneath?

Lets get this topic back on track.

[topend3]

just to clarify, airports with jet services must provide screening of pax as per the regs. turboprops are screening exempt. so any ports who receive the new embraers, under the current regs, will be required to provide screening for all passengers.

I don't believe screening at the next port is a viable option and I doubt DOTARS would allow this to occur in any case, all airports in Oz that receive RPT jet services MUST provide pax screening...

Back to the subject, the new jets do look great, with them and the new IFE being rolled out on the 737 fleet they are certainly going to give QF/JQ something to think about...

[Capn Bloggs]

Do they have cargo bins underneath?
If you're talking about containers, no they don't. When I was in the hold last, they are quite pokey. I wouldn't like to be the baggage chuckers esp on the 190 unless it has a carpet.

[Capt Claret]

Ts&Cs on the ticket will need to be modified to include "Kitchen Sinks not accepted".

[Chris Higgins]

I really think that this is the perfect family of aircraft for the population density and distances traveled in Australia. I have only flown as a passenger on the Embraer 170, but it is in no way a regional jet at all. The sophistication of the cockpit and its sheer size would surely prevent it from being classified as such?

[gas-chamber]

Not to mention the acquisition cost. Only the big airlines like DJ will be able to get the utilisation and economy of scale that such an investment requires. A couple of smaller local players are dreaming if they think thay can make new jungle jets pay. Better for them to look at....the GAS CHAMBER....

[pakeha-boy]

.....so what are they going to "pay" the Capt and F/O to fly these things???
...we all know they are nice pieces of equipment,lets get down to the nitty- titty...PB

[Contract Con]

PB,

Embraer Captain
July 2007 N/A $112,000
July 2008 3% $115,360
July 2009 3% $118,821
July 2010 3% or >CPI (Max 5%) $122,385
July 2011 3% or >CPI (Max 5%) $126,057

First Officers will be paid the appropriate percentage of a Captain’s annual salary as follows and in accordance with the effective dates of increase given to Captains:
(a) Level 1 - 55%
(b) Level 2 - 60%
(c) Level 3 - 65%


Cheers,

Con:ok:

[pakeha-boy]

Contract Con...thanks mate,...actually not a bad pay rate at all...better than I expected...the boys here are being paid less than that,so whomever is negoitating your rates/payscales is doing bloody good job....will have to pass this on as Ive done the AUS/US conversion ...and many will not be happy...especially if its for the 190.....PB

[Dehavillanddriver]

Contract Con has left out the $15400 (roughly) retention payment that increases by about 3% per year.

This takes the 1st years salary for a skipper to about $127000

[priapism]

What sort of range does this aircraft have compared to the 737-700 /800?

Would it have the legs to go from MEL to somewhere like Port Vila for example?

[opsflyer100]

What sort of range does this aircraft have compared to the 737-700 /800?

Would it have the legs to go from MEL to somewhere like Port Vila for example?

The E190 has a stated range of 2,300nm (4260Km)
The E170 has a stated range of 2,000nm (3,704Km)

[Icarus2001]

I reckon if Ozjet had gone this way, or any other start-up, they might have had a chance.
So if Ozjet were paying expensive monthly lease payments on brand new jets versus operating their fully owned (with spares) 737-200 then "you reckon" they would have had a chance.:rolleyes:

Hey, Chris, I have some land I want to sell you...;)

By the way Ozjet (http://www.ozjet.com.au) still operate charter flights. They just missed the mark on RPT.

[Eastwest Loco]

Wirgin - Underbelly lockers are the go, but they are skinny. 3 bags endways across the base and not a lot of vertical room. Far more adequate than a bizjet on steroids like the CRJs but baggage on a 75-100% load factor flight would blow any thoughts of cargo out of the water. You could not guarantee uplift to regular "fresh" market shippers.

It looks like a very handy performer with great range though.

Best all

EWL

[illusion]

Chris,
unfortunately the basic reason Ozjet did not continue in RPT was a lack of bums on seats. Weather it was a flash new E190 burning 1600kg/hr or a guzzler such the B737-200 would have made little difference.
If you do a net Present value (NPV) calculation on the fuel burn DIFFERENTIAL between the two vs the huge lease cost differential of owning an old airframe or paying say $400K USD (my guess) per month on a flash one........ The clapped out BAE146/B737/727 etc will always winout with the bean counters and is the reason why these types will fly our skies for years to come.

[Chris Higgins]

Illusion,

Your points are well taken and quite respected. This is one of those half-full/half-empty arguments. Bombardier has been in World Trade Court with the Brazilian maker because they believe that the ERJs were being offered at prices so low that they were being subsidised by WTO loans.

Bombardier has since laid off workers, Embraer has full books...

Whether you consider the cost of a lease payment or the labour costs of overhaul and extra aircraft required for AOG situations ,(when stuck with old tired airframes), the balance sheet could show convincing arguments for leasing new equipment.

Again, its not a matter of saying, "I told you so". I wish that Ozjet had made it, that I was proved wrong and that they were recycling more aircraft and employing more LAMEs/AMEs.
The reason they were not getting full planes probably had something to do with the perception of the operation to begin with...starting with the lipstick on a pig.

I would never consider working for an employer that operated the 737-200 as it's main stable. The operating costs are prohibitive; Southwest proved it by grounding the ones they already owned and were flying full on their established routes.

[cunninglinguist]

Beancounters don't take into account AOG and loss of goodwill due to unreliable A/C, sure it's an unknown qty, but you'd think that they would at least give it some small consideration? Well they don't, and that was painfully obvious to me in my previous life ( no, I'm not getting bitter and twisted Clarry :rolleyes: )

Looking at the Embraer website it certainly looks like a capable piece of kit.
A couple of things stood out : Cant access the performance ( not available ) and whilst they say it has superior hot'n'high performance, it requires just over 2100m, ISA, to take off at MTOW......this may ( or may not ) make it interesting out of a 1700m r/w @ ISA + 20.( mind you, it won't be an orphan )

As usual, with any A/C, it will be interesting to see how it goes in our unique operating conditions. ( for the uneducated ; short, hot, high r/w and long sectors )

[Chris Higgins]

So if Ozjet were paying expensive monthly lease payments on brand new jets versus operating their fully owned (with spares) 737-200 then "you reckon" they would have had a chance.:rolleyes:
Hey, Chris, I have some land I want to sell you...;)
By the way Ozjet (http://www.ozjet.com.au) still operate charter flights. They just missed the mark on RPT.


Icarus 2001, I see they're having interviews too! Should I jump on that opportunity...like your land deal? I think the long term prospects look about the same

[FE Hoppy]

SL ISA+20 1700m balanced field simplified TO calc Flap 4

Max tow @46000kg

OEW 190@ 27000kg

[Bill Smith]

SIMPLIFIED TAKEOFF ANALYSIS TABLES
EMBRAER 170 – CF34-8E5 – T/O-1 MODE – JAA CERTIFICATION
FLAPS 2 – V2/Vs =1.20 – DRY RUNWAY – ANTI ICE OFF – A/C ON
Temp 1600m 1800m 2000m 2200m 2400m 2600m 2800m
35 31336 R 33137 R 34820 R 36444 R 37200 S 37200 S 37200 S
SIMPLIFIED TAKEOFF ANALYSIS TABLES
EMBRAER 170 – CF34-8E5 – T/O-1 MODE – JAA CERTIFICATION
FLAPS 4 – V2/Vs =1.19 – DRY RUNWAY – ANTI ICE OFF – A/C ON
Temp 1600m 1800m 2000m 2200m 2400m 2600m 2800m
35 34502 R 36166 W 36166 W 36166 W 36166 W 36166 W 36166 W


Limitation codes:
• R – Runway Length;
• W – WAT (Climb);
• B – Brake;
• S – Structural;
• A – Approach Climb.

[beaver_rotate]

So, any DJ crew say when DJ will start hiring for these new machines, and how they will be hiring (I.e: the normal way on their website). All is very quiet..... I wonder if there will be a shortage of boys/girls with jet experience to get on this machine, and whether they will be taking from GA? :ok:

[Break Right]

started interviewing last week!!!!:D :D

[VMCA]

Pay is pretty dismal. Under our new payscales for newly recruited fo (B scale now been introduced) On the Emb170/190 F/o's will earn $15,00 more than our cabin supervisors. They will have trouble getting pilots from within, as its not much of a pay rise for 737 f/os to captain on these new buses. We need 220 pilots by 2008. They'll need experienced jet drivers, as the 170/190 will be used on routes into BNA,HVB,PPN all nice little CTAFs. I can see the same thing happeneing here as with the CRJ programe, employing contract dudes on big bucks with type experience.

[gj18457]

Could anyone of the Virgin guys in the know PM me what the age cutoff is to apply for the new Embraer jet operation.I am in the sandpit at the moment and would like to try to get to get home for personal family reasons.I know they are after a certain type of guy.I would just like to get a heads up.
Rgds
GJ

[apacau]

With all this jungle jet talk, does anyone know for certain what the first schedule will look like? As I understand it, flying will start Oct 07 with 3x EMB170s with the 190s rolling in from early 08.

[Chocks Away]

Anyone know the number of VB F/os who bidded across for this new type? I heard they were after a 12% productivity increase on that type too? Offers closed 2 weeks ago I hear and that would then decide where new starts go & F/Os time to command on 737 fleet... mmm very interesting
I managed to have a "Capt Cook" at the beast while it was in Oz and was very impressed. Good choice VB :D and good luck:ok:

[Dubya]

Chocks Away,

Which refueller did you get your information from, or did you just make up this rubbish.
I am an FO with VB, and there is NO LIST, NO OFFERS and NOTHING has opened or closed as far as bidding onto the EMB. We are still negotiating the EBA, and nothing will happen until then.

Your post is total rubbish, and you should remove it.

[Near Miss]

Chris, not ALL American airlines have parked their 737-200s. I know Alaska Airlines still operate theirs out of ANC.

I don't think it was entirely the fault of the a/c. Either way, it is a shame OzJet didn't last in RPT. A good mate found himself unemployed. :(

[Chris Higgins]

Near Miss,

Your observations about Alaska Airlines are correct. The 737-200s that you saw in Anchorage had the gravel kits added. One prominent feature of this kit is to prevent FOD at the engine inlets by a discharge of bleed air forward of the intake. I don't think it would be nearly as effective on a high bypass engine.

I am very sorry that your friend lost his job. It's a shame that many people did and that they thought that this would be a ray of light in the depressed employment markets that we recently endured.

This is one of those cases where we all wish that we were wrong and that the operation was succesful.

[Near Miss]

Chris, I didn't notice the gravel kit on the 200. Then again it was snowing and I wasn't getting out of a 23C cockpit to have a closer look. ;)

My mate has now left Oz (like many of us) and scored a better job. :ok:

It is great that VB is expanding and getting new toys for us to play with, it is just a shame in Oz that many companies are expecting more from all their staff (pilots, cabin crew, engineers, gate staff, etc) for less reward (pay, time off, staff travel). :(

All the best for those going to be operating the new machine. Hopefully the pax will like them as much as the pilots. Although they still call anything smaller than a 747 a "little plane". It almost made me sick when I once heard an “informed” father refer to a 737 as “little” to his son. I was flying a C310 at the time. :{

[VMCA]

As Dubya says, we're still negotiating our eba. Until thats sorted out, nothing is going to happen with the Emb, which puts the ball in our court, I hope. Only management positions being advertised internally. Bases, routes etc, very little is known. All I can say, is stay tuned, and don't sell yourself short for the sake of getting on a jet. :ok:

[Chris Higgins]

VMCA,

Any chance of letting us know where the crew bases will be?

[The PM]

yes, it's a bit of a bump of an old thread but saw on the local WIN TV news this evening that VB will be assesing Dubbo airport next week.I doubt they are looking at 737s ops somehow, so Embraer it probably would be.

I doubt it's seriously being contemplated, but our local council has been making noises of late of talking up Dubbo - Melbourne and Dubbo -Brisbane flights, and some of the more drug addled prominent citizens have even been proposing international flights.There would be more of a market for Dubbo-Newcastle flights.

Still, you never know i guess.

[oldpinger]

How bizarre- VB mention they are looking at flying from Tamworth and Armidale and the very next evening on TV......


Qantaslink advertise a cheap seat sale from Tamworth and Armidale to Sydney :ugh:

[Track Direct]

PM

Heard the other day, that the DU council have also been looking at extending the runway to accommodate jets:cool:

[Capt Claret]

the DU council have also been looking at extending the runway to accommodate jets

Don't tell me they shortened it after the F28s stopped going there in the late 80's or early 90's! :p

[Mr. Hat]

If Vb get that Jjet op happening REX is going to feel some pressur I'm thinking. Prety hard to compete with a shiny red jet...

[The PM]

Quote:
the DU council have also been looking at extending the runway to accommodate jets


The more drug addled people within Dubbo City Council and the city itself, have been proposing lengthening 05/23 to comfortably accomodate 737/A320 types for some time now.Why, I have no idea.

Whatever regional cities VB eventually goes into, they need to remember that frequency is the key.There's no point having one flight a day if most people travelling to and from places like Dubbo, Tamworth, Wagga etc etc are people going to or from Sydney on business, who want to be there by 9 or 10 am at the latest and don't want to stay overnight.So they need a minimum of 2 flights each way per day.If not, Rex and Qantaslink have no need to worry.

[alangirvan]

VB started to Coffs Harbor with a single daily flight - it is now twice daily - and they said it was operated outside peak hours to utilise an aircraft. They now operate a daily service to Ballina, with an extra flight on Saturday. This looks as though they can make a new market - people from Sydney who will think about having a holiday in NSW. Or people from inland cities who will fly to Sydney, when they might have driven previously. The jet service will gain a catchment area much wider than the town itself.

[HAMO]

I think BNK and CFS are bit more of a holiday destination that DBO !!!

Hazos used to do a weekly, then twice weekly service from OAG/DBO to OOL/BNE .. didnt matter how many combinations they tried it never worked. Yes, there are pax that want to fly from regional centres to other capitals (other than their own), but the number that would want to do it on a daily basis would be no where near enough to fill a 36 seat SAAB or Dash, let alone a shiny new jungle jet

[The PM]

Hamo, precisely, you need to stand for DCC at the next election! :ok:

[Track Direct]

CC

When I worked out there years ago I remember the F27's, the old Nord Mohawk, the Shorts 360 and the Bandits but don't recall seeing any F28's on RPT services.:confused:


PM

You are quite right, it's all about frequency and timing:E
One would imagine they'd need a minimum of 2 flights a day to SY from any regional hub to suit the business travellers.

[Capt Claret]

Track Direct,

The Mighty Mohawk was preceded by the F28s. If I remember correctly the F28s were suspended about '89 and in the revamp QPA then SPRA were contracted to provide Mohawk services for Ansett. Tamworth and other regional centres also had F28 services operated by Ansett NSW back in those days.

As an aside, for a period I lived at 20 Gundarra St Dubbo, flying said Mohawk, to SYD and to DU and to SYD and to DU...... :}

[The PM]

CC, I don't suppose you know of a rather large gent with the initials MF (or might even be him!),and where he is these days?

[Capt Claret]

The PM, or should I say, little johhny :p
I did my Mohawk ground school with an MF, back in about '91. Later, we were both Captain's sexual advisors in Dubbo. I last saw him at Alteon BNE, in about 2005 doing an A320 endorsement with JQ.

[The PM]

Did he sign you up for Amway?

:}

[Track Direct]

PM / CC

I was just thinking exactly the same thing, wondering where the "big fella" is after all these years ?:}

[Capt Claret]

Amway! :eek: He must've succumbed to Devenish's sales pitch. :} But no, until reading the above posts, I didn't know he was one of them.

[The PM]

Well, he was back in about 1994ish, don't know about now.........

[Dixondik]

Be interesting to see how many regional ports say yes to VBs E-Jets seeing the managers/owners will have to dish out millions for baggage screening setup etc! I'm told some have already said "No thanks, the Q400 and SF34 are fine for us".:oh:

Also, on the shorter ADL-PLO option they are looking at..the jet wont even get to A100 before it has to descend again = great economic performance.

[apacau]

With Port Lincoln, given that Alliance have 2x F50s in Adelaide, and they don't need all that capacity for a 4x daily rotation to Olympic Dam AND given Alliance now have a codeshare arrangement with DJ on the Olympic Dam BHP contract route route with general public bookings through DJ, the logical step in my mind would be to extend that relationship and offer 2-3 daily F50s to Port Lincoln.

Easier said than done, I know, but anyway...

The only way you'll see jets into PLO is a service to Melbourne, which in my opinion could work quite well. But that's another story.

[Deejay 1]

Hmmm, "The old lets fly jets to regional ports" trick Chief, apologies to Agent 86.
Apacau, it is indeed another story flying jets to PLO. From anywhere. Including Melbourne.
In August 2005 the SA Guvmint conducted a survey of the ADL/PLO route.
In its 31 page report some very interesting information was found.
The survey was conducted over 1 week, with 657 responses over both REX and ASA flights.
507 pax were ADL bound and 96 were interstate bound. Remember this is for a week. Of the 96, 28% were MEL bound, followed by 22% for SYD.
Now 96 pax divided by 7 days equals about 13 pax a day. Which seems to be a pretty light load factor for a jungle jet of any sort. Maybe a stretch Citation or Gulf perhaps but something bigger? I don't think so.
So based on these official government figures I think that jets into PLO is some way off.
And lets not even entertain local PLO thinking that they could have a non stop jet service for their fish export trade to Asia as one high profile person suggested to me on a flight. I had to ask what would be imported into PLO to make the flight worthwhile, the answer being err umm err umm.
Even from a tourism perspective, acknowledging that PLO has similar attractions to KGC, what airline would fly perhaps 30 - 50 (50 being max coach day tour numbers) to PLO ex MEL, and then have a plane sit on the ground all day or nip back to ADL with perhaps 25 - 30 pax, just enough to pay for the landing fees?

By the way only 82 pax of the 96 indicated that they would have used a direct/non-stop flight
In the good old Kendell and Emu days it was not uncommon for Japanese visitors to take the red eye out of MEL, connect to KGC, scream around the island for the day, back to ADL connecting with the last flight out to MEL.
Even if KGC had say a DAILY demand in peak season for 70/80 inbound visitors ex MEL, what would you do with the plane after it arrived at KGC to connect with Sealink's coach tour?
Send it ADL with 5 people and the mail?
Sorry, but as usual the numbers don't stack up.
And don't get me started on SATC's yearly hobby horse of ADL/CDP/AYQ flights. I've seen the reports, and again the numbers don't stack up.
Anybody remember Aboriginal Air and a 17 seat Bandit?
Rock on!

[Cactus Jak]

Do Rex really have anything to worry about here? I was under the impression that intra state regional routes were still regulated. Inter state on the other hand, well it's every man and his dog/tiger.

[Kiwiconehead]

Don't forget Qantaslink had a go at PLO as well last year and didn't last.

[Howard Hughes]

Qantaslink service didn't last because it had no continuity! There was only one aircraft, which went U/S a number of times leaving people stranded.

Just looking at the Rex website and there are currently 12 return services for this friday (8th June), that is 24 sectors, times 34 seats, around 816 seats for ONE DAY! From what I hear from my mates at Rex, this route is going off!
In August 2005 the SA Guvmint conducted a survey of the ADL/PLO route.
In its 31 page report some very interesting information was found.
The survey was conducted over 1 week, with 657 responses over both REX and ASA flights.
507 pax were ADL bound and 96 were interstate bound. Remember this is for a week. Of the 96, 28% were MEL bound, followed by 22% for SYD.

Deejay, while these are official Government figures I think they are both out of date (the route has changed considerably in the last two years) and it is not the total number of pax for a week, but merely a small sample of the total numbers.

657 times 52 weeks would only be only 34164 passengers. Rex run 7 services week days, 12 on fridays, 6 saturdays and 8 sundays. That is 108 services per week, or 3672 seats, that equates to 190,944 seat per annum! That is one very large regional route, probably the best in OZ when you consider the size of the town! Lets face it air is the only way to go to/from Port lincoln.:ok:

Assuming a 60% load factor (I suspect their load factor is higher) then that is 114,566 passengers for the year, if you multiply that by even the cheapest fare ($99) that is over $11 million turnover on one route.:8

Now back to the point in question on jets from the East Coast, assuming the Government figures are correct and only 14% of people travel interstate from PLO (if it is not at least 30% I would be very surprised), then at 14%, 43 people would be travelling (daily) to the East Coast, at 30% this figure rises to 96 per day! :ooh:

I think this would be enough to start and the market would grow from there, what I do agree with is that it will be the timing of the flight that would make it unviable.

Cheers, HH.:ok:

[Dixondik]

Had a mate of mine who works for Rex look up ADL-PLO numbers for today only (out of 33):
31
32
32
32
29
28

So as you can tell, almost 100% for a boring Wednesday.

[Deejay 1]

HH

Don't disagree re the age of the data, nor the now increase in numbers as per the following:

Now back to the point in question on jets from the East Coast, assuming the Government figures are correct and only 14% of people travel interstate from PLO (if it is not at least 30% I would be very surprised), then at 14%, 43 people would be travelling (daily) to the East Coast, at 30% this figure rises to 96 per day!

I think this would be enough to start and the market would grow from there, what I do agree with is that it will be the timing of the flight that would make it unviable.

The questions all this raises are:
1 Which East Coast port would you fly from
2 What would the timings be
3 Would there be sufficient numbers ex PLO to make such an exercise worthwhile? Maybe not daily, perhaps tri-weekly.

Of course lets not forget that the Lower Eyre Peninsula District Council, with approx 1000 ratepayers, would be lucky to stump up the funds to fence off the car park let alone the perimeter fence to meet security standards.

Rock on!

[Howard Hughes]

The questions all this raises are:
1 Which East Coast port would you fly from
2 What would the timings be
3 Would there be sufficient numbers ex PLO to make such an exercise worthwhile? Maybe not daily, perhaps tri-weekly.

These are the questions, I suspect it is only matter of time before we see jets from the East Coast!

I also reckon we'll see SY-OLD in a (R)jet within 2 years!;)

[Mud Skipper]

Has any one heard of this one yet?

Rumour is there have been people sniffing around Moorabbin regarding brining the Jungle Jets to the eastern side of town.

Would make a lot of sense even with some works no doubt required.
Even if it's less noisy than a C206 no doubt the neighbours will scream blue murder though.

[Dixondik]

Moorabbin?:ugh: How do passengers transfer to an international or other domestic flight out of MEL?

[Mud Skipper]

They don't.

Hundreds of pax per day fly from S/E Melbourne to Sydney and Brisbane and back every day. A premium service out of YMMB would save these fokes 2 hours or more each day return - do we have the population for this yet I don't know but I hear there has been investigations. Just asking if there was anything in it.

[neville_nobody]

Often wondered about the viability/economics of a Moorabbin link or a Bankstown link. However I have often suspected that the cost of maintaining the aerodromes with security, staff, terminals etc etc would outweigh the savings in airport charges from using major ports. How much could you save by doing Bankstown - Moorabbin/Melbourne (vice versa aka Jet*) rather than the traditional Tulla-Kingsfordsmith? Assuming the cost of the aircraft is identical going to either it will really come down to how much they can screw over the airports for cost savings. Now given that the smaller airports will have to install security processing, baggage carousals etc how much will really be saved? Similarly there is no ILS at either which could make life interesting come winter.