Stars & Sids?

[mjtibbs]

Hi Guys,

I did do a search before posting but nothing relavant came up.

Can someone please point me in the direction to websites which explain how to read and understand STARS & SIDS.

I can sort of decypher them as it were, but I really want to fully understand them.

Many thanks

--tibbz

[Sky Wave]

mjtibbs

I do not know of any sites that explain them, however they are relatively straight forward, what do you want to know? All you have to do is follow the route on the chart, adhering to the altitude constraints.

SW

[mjtibbs]

Hi,
here is the STAR for the 9L approach at LHR for example.
I have circled the holding pattern.
where does it say the altitude you should keep.
and also, how do you know how far you should travel the "straight" on the loop before turning to make the other side of the loop.
finally, when filing the flight plan... how do you know which STAR approach to use if there are multiple possible STAR approaches.
do you just choose the most suitable depending on your approach?
thanks
http://www.arnoldfam.free-online.co.uk/chart.JPG

[paco]

That isn't the STAR, it's an ILS/DME approach chart. The STAR will be on another piece of paper taking you up to the IAF. At least that's the way Jep do it.

Phil

[mjtibbs]

thats how bad I am with these lol.

I'll try searching for a tutorial or somthing.

thx

[paco]

Don't worry we've all been there!

Phil

[BobC]

Go to http://www.wingfiles.com/. Under "Approach" you will find a series of articles produced by Jeppesen (chart clinic). The last few chapters describe SIDs & STARS, I believe. May help.

[scroggs]

That chart is the final approach chart for 9L at Heathrow. the hold you have circled is that used in the event of radio failure on the approach, and is not used in the normal course of events.

'SIDs' are Standard Instrument Departures, and consist of horizontal and vertical routings and speed instructions after departure from an airport up to the point of the first en-route fix after passing Transition Altitude. These routings are given names, usually related to the name of that en-route fix, and numbers. In the UK, the number may relate (though indirectly) to the runway of departure; in the US the number normally represents the revision state of the procedure. SIDs in the US may also include various 'transitions', which are the onward routings from the first en-route fix to a variety of further waypoints. As an example, yesterday I flew the 'Newark 7' departure from 22R at KEWR, using the 'Merit transition'. The 'Newark 7' SID covers all runways at KEWR, and is the 7th iteration of this procedure. The 'Merit Transition' describes the routing to the Merit fix, which was the first on our homeward route.

'STARs' are Standard Instrument Arrival Routes. They describe the routings and speeds from cruise altitude and various arrival directions to the Initial Approach fix, which in UK will be a hold normally based on a VOR/DME. There may be several intermediate holds described in the procedure, which can be used in the event of heavy traffic. On my arrival at Heathrow from Newark I used the 'Bovingdon 3A' arrival, which routed me from Honiley via several intermediate points to the arrival hold at Bovingdon (BNN) VOR at FL70. That is the end of the STAR. From there, either Radar Vectors or 'Area Navigation' routings (GPS) are followed to the final approach procedure; in my case, the ILS on 27R.

SIDS and STARS are used to give pilots a clue about their routings; they are not a solemn declaration of what will actually occur. Air Traffic can at any time vary the route of flight, altitude and speed at their discretion. As an example, on my BNN 3A yesterday, we did not actually cross any of the beacons or waypoints described on the STAR!

If you have a look on the websites of the various in-flight documentation providers (Jeppesen, Aerad, etc) you may find more information. Alternatively, try Googling 'SID/STAR Tutorial' and see what comes up. Please note: the conventions of symbology used on SID and STAR charts may be different with different publishers. It's vital you obtain the chart key for the publisher of the charts you're using to fully understand what information's presented to you.

Scroggs

[helicopter-redeye]

"how do you know how far you should travel the "straight" on the loop before turning to make the other side of the loop."


Timing (mins, say 1minute) or distance (DME). This will be declared on the plate itself if a deviation from the standard.

[Keygrip]

Scroggy, you've spent TOO long on the R/T in America.

That chart is the final approach chart for 9L at Hethrow
No, it's not - it's the final approach chart for 09L left.

[scroggs]

Tell that to Heathrow ATC!

[mjtibbs]

thanks alot for that guys & thanks for explaining that scroggs.

I'll have a good read of the URL posted and further URLS I can find via google.

:ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

Cheers

-tibbz

[mjtibbs]

http://www.arnoldfam.free-online.co.uk/chart2.JPG


Ok i've managed to follow the BNN 3A approach and marked it with my extreme mspaint skills.

I see now where it has altitude information etc.

So just 2 last questions....

because ATC can tell you to use a specific STAR, when you file your flight plan initially, do you enter the most likely STAR you would use, taking your approach direction into account?

or do you not put it in the flight plan at all seeing as ATC can make you use a specific STAR thay they prefer depending on traffic at that time etc?

thanks

[JediDude]

Not a pilot (Yet) so correct me if this is wrong. ATC generally will not tell you to use a specific STAR but they may force you to deviate from the one you had planned to use by issuing radar vectors. Generally you pick the STAR that best fits your flight plan.

p.s. I thought STAR stood for Standard Terminal Arrival Route?

[scroggs]

STAR - Standard Terminal Arrival Route. Yes, you're quite right. I was typing on autopilot this morning!

As an airline pilot, it's unlikely you will ever be required to write a flight plan as your ops/flight planning department will look after all that for you. However, if you ever do have to write one, you would normally file for the SID/STAR that best suits your route of flight. ATC can then either clear you as filed, or substitute an alternative SID or STAR that better suits their tactical picture. As I've already said, the clearance and what you actually fly may be very different...

You can indeed file direct to your destination airfield without including a STAR, but you would expect to be assigned one before entering the terminal area - so you need to have the STAR information with you!

Scroggs

[Callsign Kilo]

For the ATPL Flight Planning subject, you are required to have access to the Jeppesen Student Pilot Route Manual. The introduction section goes into great detail about how to disect information from a SID, STAR, precision and non-precision approach plates, along with information on Area charts, Upper and Lower Altitiude Enroute Charts, North Atlantic Plotting Charts etc. There are also a number of plates for major airports like Amsterdam, Heathrow, JFK and Paris CDG included for exam questions with all their relevant approach plates, SIDs, STARs etc. I would advise buying it as it will definetly help (you will need it anyway if you are planning to embark on Commercial training) :ok:

[foghorn]

Just to add to what Scroggs says, if you arrive off the airways at an airfield in the UK that has STARs published, but have filed direct, in NATS' wonderful computer system will put you on a STAR even though you haven't filed on one, therefore controllers are likely to expect you to follow the STAR unless otherwise vectored.

The significance of STARs in radio fail procedures hasn't yet been mentioned. If you go radio fail in the cruise, you'll be expected to follow the vertical and lateral profile of the STAR and (in the UK at least) to hold at the end of it until your ETA or last acknowledged Expected Approach Time (if given one by ATC), thence commence a procedural approach for the duty runway at your destination.

[WingletTurbo]

Scroggs,

how do you know that the hold is in the event of a radio failure? Is it because the turns are to the left?

Thanks!

-WT

[scroggs]

Because I know the Heathrow procedures!

Scroggs

[WingletTurbo]

Because I know the Heathrow procedures!

Scroggs

And where can I find these procedures in writing?

[paco]

The AIP.

Phil

[drag required]

http://www.ais.org.uk/

register here

[WingletTurbo]

Thank you gentlemen! I have my FAA I.R and am trying to get accustomed to JAA rules and regulations.

-WT

[scroggs]

And where can I find these procedures in writing?
Weeeeelllllll, my company pays several tens of thousands of dollars annually to provide me with up-to-date Jeppesen charts and books so I can do my job. In fact, we'll shortly be jacking in the paper stuff for an 'Electronic Flight Bag' containing all the same stuff.

If you have a friendly airline pilot, he may have access to recently-outdated charts and stuff (which you must NOT use in an aircraft!). Alternatively, I'm pretty sure Jeppesen provides charts and approach plates for people to use on MS Flt Sim. While they may be slightly simplified, they will contain the major features of the real thing. I'll try and find a link...

Edit: from the AIP (a notoriously difficult document to read), If complete radio communications failure in the aircraft occurs following a missed approach the aircraft will:
i fly to the appropriate missed approach holding point at 3000 ft ALT; ( The CHT or EPM holds, which are detailed earlier in tihe document)
ii complete at least one holding pattern;
iii then commence an approach for landing in accordance with the appropriate initial approach procedures without radar control as detailed
at AD 2-EGLL-7.

On the App plate (the top half of which was shown back a few posts), the go-around procedure is:

Climb to 3000 - straight ahead until
passing 1579(1500) or I-AA DME zero
inbound whichever is later, then left
onto track 039°. Continue as directed.
RCF: On passing LON DME 10
proceed to NDB CHT at 3000.

'RCF' means 'Radio Communications Failure'


Scroggs

[WingletTurbo]

I learn something new everyday! Thanks again!