Citation VII pro and cons

[oceanpilot]

Anybody out there flying or operating a Citation VII C650 ?
We are looking for a stand-up cabin with range 2000NM + sure.
We operate Citation already and adding an EXCEL would be nice but no range
and Sovereign is new (reads expensive purchase)

A III VI VII is the next choice only not a lot out there. The investment is fairly low
Total built only around 200 but this maybe has to have a reason.

Any advice about the VII appreciated; operation costs, flying it, special problems (if any) .

Or other recommendations / comparisons. Hawker 800, Lear 60 (before somebody comes up with something exotic we are operating in SE Asia.)

Thanks a lot.

[HS125]

Check your PMs.
Regards
HS125

[formulaben]

Have you looked into a used CE-750? A CE-650 can have big maintenance costs. Unless you operate from a small runway, I found the "X" to be a reasonable value given the cabin size and speed; and since you're already Cessna'd, then it would be a good fit. If lower acquisition costs are needed, then other considerations would be an IAI-1125/G100 or a DA50...and I'm sure an HS-125 would fit in there too.

[silverhawk]

CE650 as I remember had better range, more luggage space, more capacity and was faster than HS125. And I could stand up in the cabin!

The CE650 never embarressed me on a trip. We were often tasked rather than a 125.

Six years since, so figures a bit hazy now.

[Martin Barnes]

we operate a 650 iii out of the uk.

The aircraft has the same cabin as the exel and costs 20% more to fuel and maintain, the good news is you can buy a 1990 with a spz8000 digital autopilot system for less than 4.8 mill, the very good news is that it will always cruise at 8.0 to 8.2.

[silverhawk]

So that's a 3, not a SEVEN?

[Martin Barnes]

3 6 or 7 pretty much the same thing!

the 3 serial 175 or higher with the digital spz8000 offer the best value for money

the 7s for whatever reason did not work well for NJE maybe they were not suitable for very high utilisation.

our aircraft has been very light on unscheduled maintenance, we are flying about 350 hrs a year

[silverhawk]

In 18 months at NJE on the 7, I only flew 180 hours. with a 6 on 5 off roster that equtes to only 240 hours per airframe per year.

Therefore not high utilisation at all. At that time there only 3 of them on the fleet which makes it a bit of an oddity in the big plan. I think that's why they got rid of them when the Excel came along.

I actually quite liked the 7, it was the prats in Lisbon who were the problem.

[seupp]

We're operating a III, you will NOT get 2000Nm+ out of this plane...downwind yes, in zero wind or much less headwind, the answer is no.

Some info:

III=200+ made
VI= 39 made (approx.)
VII= about 140 made.

Total C-650 about 360-380ish.

seupp

[bman0429]

I would tend to disagree about the range. If you take that airplane in the 40's it'll give you a solid 2000 miles at 80. The 650 is the best aircraft Cessna ever made and Cessna will tell you that. Maint. can and will eat you alive, but if you are low utilization and have staff mechanic it'll be no problem and you can save the extra cash in aqui costs

[seupp]

Nautical miles or statute miles and how much reserve do you land with?

seupp

[His dudeness]

I have flown 3s and a seven, if you fly more that 1800 NAUTICALS you are way braver than I ever was. (Not downwind, but with not more than 25 kts head)...

[Mark Achten]

The 650's can true out @ 460 kts and routinely cruise at FL's 410 and 430 if ISA temps are good and cool.
They can fly for about 4 hr + 15 and then you need to start down and land. This landing fuel load is 1500 lbs and needs to be increased for night or IFR app's.

So you will be flying the spruce gooose routes to EU or the wet foot print to the Azores and the Pacific is arc way north.

[CMN]

Been reading this thread with great interest, as we are considering a C-VII to complement a C-II. We are doing airtaxi/charter out of northern Europe.
The main thing is, is there an obvious alternative to the Cessna in the $5.5m to $6.5m (preowned) market ?

Standup cabin (if you can call 1.74m that) is a must together with APU.

But great replies so far!

[formulaben]

The main thing is, is there an obvious alternative to the Cessna in the $5.5m to $6.5m (preowned) market?

The one that sticks out to me is the IAI-1125/G100 Astra. The Astra SPX has an APU, the SP was designed to use the right engine as the APU. The cabin isn't as wide, but you get better range, especially with the SPX. I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but I'd guess the Astra has better short-field performance due to leading edge slats. The brakes on the Astra are awesome; you'll never be brake energy limited.

Anyone a Hawker expert here? There's got to be a Hawker in that price range, right? The cabin is bigger than both of those.

[His dudeness]

The Hawker has definetely less baggage Space, but bigger cabin, question is, do you get a 800 or 800xp at that price ? I´d doubt that.
The 3 I flew had a lot of maintenance issues, but was an old "dragon" (11000plus hours). It seems to me that flaptracks and motors are an issue, costing roughly 130000USD to replace (both aircraft had them replaced)
The 7 I flew had a problem with metal in oil, engine had to torn down twice - now that is a TFE731...
If you´d operate one, make sure to have it on JSSI or MSP and use a maintenance shop that knows that aeroplane well - you can spend an awful lot of money whilst troubleshooting on that airplane...
What a lot of Pax hated on ours was the threshold between main club and toilet - on the 2 aft seats its not so comfy espescially for tall persons.
Make sur to get an 8000 Avionic (VII or late III), the 650 is really old stuff...

[CMN]

Can't seem to grasp the exact differences between Citation VII and the Excel. Excel is a newer VII ? It has more range but less speed as I can see from the figures onthe internet. J Mesinger has DOC of 1.266usd for a VII and 1.051usd for a Excel. Are these figures up to anything ?
Then theres the Encore....how does it compare to the two above ?



confused, but on a higher level.....

[BizJetJock]

One is a swept wing, t-tail, high speed aircraft with TFE731 engines; the other is a straight wing, mid tail, slowish aircraft with P&W engines. Other than that they're fairly similar.....:confused:
As for the Encore, it's a much smaller (and again completely different) machine.

[His dudeness]

The Excel is basically the III/VI/VII fuselage combined with the V (5) - tail and wing (well that a bit exaggerated...)
The III was the first "big" fuselage Cessna built. The Excel/XLS and Sovereign do share it. (Sovereigns longer, but still same diameter 1,73cm)

The big difference INSIDE the Excel and the 650 is that the Wingspar is not intruding the cabin in the Excel (560XL or 560XLS btw.)

Outside it is the as said before the more or less straight wing compared to the sweptback wing of the 650 and the T-tail. The 650 has 2 wheels on each main anding gear, the 560XL/XLS has only one. both have trailing gear.

The XL/XLS is a relatively good performer but roughly 30 to 50 knots slower than the 650. But it climbs way better and can cruise in 430 or 450 directly. You won´t do that in a III or VI and even the more powerful VII strugles to go up when fully loaded.
Systemwise the 560XL/XLS shares a lot with the "small" fuselage citations (500,550,560 and 525´s) whilst the 650 is considerably more "complex".


The APU was an option in the beginning, so there might be a few 560XL on the market without APU. but most were with APU.

Speaking of the APU: the 650 has a lot of different APU´s installed, some for Ground use only, some with a hydraulic pump some without. Check with a EXPERIENCED maintenance shop which to avoid, there are some that are more troubled than others.

The Excel is for sure the cheaper aircraft to operate. And it can do most trips the 650 does - but the 650 looks way better no doubt.



The Encore is the V or Ultra with different avionics, engine and gear (trailing)
And has no APU.

[CMN]

So the competetion stands between a good-looking hot-rod (VII) against the equally sized, but more economical Excel.
What about balanc filed legths ? Does the VII eat up more runway due to the swept wing? And Vref/landing distances, how do they compare?

And at last but definately not least; a used Excel is 8 mill $ and a VII i 6 mill. $. What is the wisest choice from an investment point of view ?


Getting wiser, thanks!

[His dudeness]

I only do have the XLS numbers on hand, XL is slightly less agile especially at altitude ( the engine have 5 % more thrust at altitude)...maybe someone else can provide the Excel numbers?


T/O Distances

Max T/OM / 15 flaps (XLS)vs 20 flaps (650-VII) / 15°C 20200 vs 23000
XLS 650-VII
SL: 3560 5120

3000ft: 4040 6010

6000ft: 5140 unable

2000 under MTOM (18000 vs 21000)

SL: 2960 4480

3000ft: 3350 5080

6000ft: 4120 6270

Landing DIST UNFACTORED in ft

MLW 18700 vs 20000 Vref 117 vs 130
SL: 3180 2920

3000ft: 3450 3200

6000ft 3800 3540

3000 under MLW Vref 109 vs 121 (16000lbs vs. 17000lbs)

SL: 2850 2550

3000ft: 3160 2790

6000ft: 3400 3060

Cruise / FF at Max weight for FL / ISA condition
High Speed cruise KTAS
Time to climb (cruise climb)
FL 350
435 / 1533 Vs 469 / 1881
14 min / 17 min
FL390
431 / 1359 vs 452 / 1550
17 min / 22 min
FL410
428 / 1278 vs 436 / 1392
20 min / 27 min
FL430
417 / 1172 vs 435 / 1265 (max cruise weight @FL 20000lbs)
23 min / 37 min
F450
399 / 1082 vs 436 / 1153 (max cruise weight @FL 18000lbs)
29 min / 130 min

A few weights:
XLS
MTOM 20200
MLM 18700
MZFM 15100
Max tailcone baggage weight 700

650-VII

MTOM 23000
MLM 20000
MZFM 16500
Max tailcone baggage weight 417

Sources: XLS AFM / OM 650-VII FSI Performance section

I would buy a Excel, but thats just my opinion...the higher capitel costs of the XL will equal the higher operating costs of the 650-VII and if you look at investments one will have to do (say avionics RNP-1 as example) I´d prefer to do that on a newer airplane. Resale value will be better on the Excel also.

Mnd you, I´m just a pilot, not an investments specialist.

[CMN]

That's just what I needed. Good stuff, much appreciated!
Wow the VII eats up alot of asphalt on MTOw compared to the XLS. Is the Excel far from those figures?
So if you can disregard the lower cruising speed (10-35 kts) i guess the XLS (Excel?) is a winner. Who needs those extra knots...

Is TBO higher on the PW engines than on the TFE731?

Then there's the range - Excel I've read gives you around 1800 NM with reserves. Can anyone confirm this?

To the guy who started this thread; Did you buy a VII ??!?

[oceanpilot]

To the guy who started this thread; Did you buy a VII ??!?
No, we did not buy a C650 yet, but we are still looking.
Not really in a hurry as we have a nearly new small tube citation and this will be a second aircraft not a substitute.

But we want more comfort for the pax.
We need an APU on the ground for A/C.
1.74 stand up cabin is better than what we have now.
The toilet is serviceable from outside!
We can have a side facing seat and a galley. (for a stewardess, they are little here in Asia J

Been reading this thread with great interest, as we are considering a C-VII to complement a C-II. Hope you do not buy our one ! :-)
We are doing airtaxi/charter out of northern Europe.
If I were based in Europe it probably would be an Excel, but we operate in Asia.

The aircraft has the same cabin as the Excel and costs 20% more to fuel
In the end Fuel is cheap, 0.7$/L
and maintain, the good news is you can buy a 1990 with a spz8000 digital autopilot system for less than 4.8 mill,
2-3M$ less to an Excel, this interest rate covers a lot of maintenance.
the very good news is that it will always cruise at 8.0 to 8.2.
We need speed and range, a VII VI or III has a little more of both than the Excel.

The main thing is, is there an obvious alternative to the Cessna in the $5.5m to $6.5m (preowned) market?
The one that sticks out to me is the IAI-1125/G100 Astra.

There's got to be a Hawker in that price range, right?

And for all the other recommendations, in the end it has to be a Cessna for service considerations.

Wow the VII eats up alot of asphalt on MTOw compared to the XLS.
Runway length is not an issue if you have plenty. And we have in Asia.

Have you looked into a used CE-750?
Yes, but out of bud-jet J at the moment.
A CE-650 can have big maintenance costs.
I do not think a X is cheaper to maintain, quite the opposite.

If you have more let me know.

I hope I answered to most and thanks again.