Ethnic differences in pilots

[GPMG]

This is not a small minded racsist post, it is a honest question.

It is well documented that there are physical differences between different ethnic groups. Including physical performance.
Caucasian people in general have proved to be better at water sports (slympic swimming etc)
Black people are better sprinters (due to I think, bone structure and a higher percentage of white blood cells that give an immediate release of oxygen to the muscles).

There are many areas where ethnic background helps or impeads your ability to do something.

Does this also occur in flying? Can certain ethnic groups handle high G's better? Do they have better spatial or attitude awareness?

[ORAC]

Troll alert.... :hmm: :hmm:

[tablet_eraser]

GMPG
White people have proven better at swimming, have they? Might it not be that access to decent swimming facilities is easier in the developed world than in the predominantly black Third World?

What is different about "bone structure" between white people and black people? We all have the same skeletal structure, actually. Maybe you're referring to bone density?

a higher percentage of white blood cells that give an immediate release of oxygen to the muscles

White blood cells don't carry oxygen.

Why concentrate on differences? "They" are the same as "us". If someone's up to the task s/he should get the job, without worrying about ethnicity.

[airborne_artist]

I'll give you this as a fascinating but useless info morsel: About 10% of the Fijians recruited into the Army in the 60s made Warrant Officer, which is about 10 times the normal rate. They also were massively over-represented at Hereford. Their skills and sense of humour are legendary.

Why might that be?

[GPMG]

i did think about this post before hitting submit as I knew that the subject would bring out the usual ignorant little turds waiving their copies of the guardian and shouting 'Racism'. If you don't have anything to add other than finger pointing then please sod off and make some sandals.

I did not say that Black people can't swim you moron, however how many black people are there doing good times in international swimming? Very few.
My only mistake was as you pointed out referring to bone structure and not density.

On the other hand caucasians arent that renowned for sprinting in todays modern atheletics are they?

For christs sake get of of your soap box and re read my original post, you'll find there is no racist undertone although people like you look for an 'ism in everything.

It seems to be the different proportions of white muscle fibres and red.

http://www.newstatesman.com/200009180009

http://run-down.com/guests/je_black_athletes_p2.php

Any more cretins want to poor out of the woodwork and accuse me of being racist?

[Impiger]

Actually GPMG I think you have a point. East Africans are known for long distance running and West Africans for sprinting - can't just be coincidence there must be something in the physiology.

As for whether this translates to flying .... the only thing on this issue I recall from aviation med is something called Sickle Cell Anaemia which has an advesre impact (something to do with the amount of O2 in the hemi goblin stuff IIRC) but is prevelant in people of Mediterranean and African origin. Can't for the life of me remember what the impact was though!

Now I think it is reasonably well accepted that short chaps and chapesses have greater g tolerance so if you can find a race of short stature who can carry masses of O2 in their blood you might just answer your own question.

There's a thesis in this for one of those doctor types.

[Wizzard]

I'll give you this as a fascinating but useless info morsel: About 10% of the Fijians recruited into the Army in the 60s made Warrant Officer, which is about 10 times the normal rate. They also were massively over-represented at Hereford. Their skills and sense of humour are legendary.
Why might that be?
I suggest the answer to the first part is that if you are going to drag your arrse halfway around the planet to join a foreign army you would give it a fair bit of thought beforehand and not just "suck it and see" like some youngsters might. Therefore you would be more likely to make a career of it. Are there any statistics as to how many soldiers who give it the whole 22 years make it to WO?
The second part may be more difficult to reason but I'm sure that a sense of duty, respect and conscientiousness will be in there somewhere - something that is not easy to find in our culture.


As for the main thread, I'm not sure about enthnic differences but there are certainly cultural differences as anyone who has flown with a pilot from the Middle East will know!



Wiz

[xraf]

I think GPMG was asking a genuine question but its to be expected in this day and age that it will take half a dozen posts to get past the 'lets check you're not being a racist' B:mad: ks.

Anyway, my two Penn'orth is this:

In the 80's the middle eastern foreign forces we trained to fly had to do the initial goundschool 6 weeks twice. (they were back-coursed in order to achieve this) Then, when they started flying, double the time was allocated to each exercise. This occurred regardless of their exam scores or flying ability.:uhoh:

I dont know if this is still the case but I'm sure someone on here will.:ok:

Now, I dont know if the RAF had some empirical evidence to suggest this was necessary, or whether it was a way to get paid twice for the one course :E or what it was but that is what happened.

Regards

Xraf

[Wyler]

Or maybe they were finding it difficult to learn using a foreign language?

If you had to do your courses in Arabic, maybe you would need double time. Don't forget, some of the students only learn the language just prior to starting training. In that case, maybe they are far cleverer than us as they pick it up quickly. Not sure we would be so good.

I think one of the not so often spoken about aspects of slavery in the USA was the use of selective breeding amongst the slaves to produce bigger, stronger workers.

[Whirlygig]

I've found my Irish ethnicity has impeded my flying :} :p

Some people will start to suggest that men and women are the same? :rolleyes:

Cheers

Whirls

[FirstFiveEighth]

Ex-Lightning mate of mine swears he was the originator of the oft-repeated anecdote re. training Saudi pilots on T55's:-

Saudi trainee, having made a total b*lls of his approach profile: "The stick is in the hands of Allah!"

Mate: "Bu**er Allah, I have control!"

[QFIhawkman]

For christs sake get of of your soap box and re read my original post, you'll find there is no racist undertone although people like you look for an 'ism in everything.


Well said GPMG.

I personally think this could be a really interesting thread, but as usual the famous PPRuNe naysayers have to shoot someone down purely for the sake of it. This particular forum seems to suffer from a strange sort of malaise whereby anyone making a point or asking a question automatically attracts critisicm from some of the small minded Daily Mail reading idiots.

It was a fair question. I for one have no idea of the answers to it, but I'm sure as hell interested in hearing the views of those who do. Let the man speak for God's sake.

[brickhistory]

I think one of the not so often spoken about aspects of slavery in the USA was the use of selective breeding amongst the slaves to produce bigger, stronger workers.

Nine posts to bring this seemingly unrelated thread around to the evil USA? Slipping a little? :E

[GlosMikeP]

i did think about this post before hitting submit as I knew that the subject would bring out the usual ignorant little turds waiving their copies of the guardian and shouting 'Racism'. If you don't have anything to add other than finger pointing then please sod off and make some sandals.

....
For christs sake get of of your soap box and re read my original post, you'll find there is no racist undertone although people like you look for an 'ism in everything.
Well said. 10/10. I remember reading in the Telegraph that talking about ethnicity and how it advantages/disadvantages certain peoples in certain athletic pursuits is one of sport's 'no go' areas based solely on PC.

As I understand it the Ethiopians are particularly well adapted to distance running partly because they are naturally tall and wiry, and used to hot and high conditions, where in the west of Africa people tend to have larger leg and backside muscles, which give capacity for sprinting.

Caucasians don't usually fall into either category but I really don't have any idea why that might make them better swimmers.

Supposedly people from the Arabian peninsular are naturally good at navigating without recourse to instruments, though that sounds much like the stuff of legend rather than logic to me.

[gravity victim]

I was told by someone who went out to train pilots on VC10 for the old EAA that he had noticed that while European/caucasian trainees might screw up emergency procedures through over-hasty reaction (grabbing at things too quickly), Africans he worked with were rather more likely to do the reverse, ie tending to freeze.(I think the shrinks call it 'over-arousal/under-arousal) No idea if any real relevance or not.

[TMJ]

Ex-Lightning mate of mine swears he was the originator of the oft-repeated anecdote re. training Saudi pilots on T55's:-

Saudi trainee, having made a total b*lls of his approach profile: "The stick is in the hands of Allah!"

Mate: "Bu**er Allah, I have control!"

Ex-Lightning mate shortened by leaving the ac vertically and at speed on a few occassions and went on to be the world's greatest authority on the Bulldog?

[ORAC]

There are minor variations across the human race but all fall across a bell curve. If you look at the far extremes you can find some cases where the fact that some ethnic groups tend to one end of the bell curve will produce an advantage, such as for olympic gold medallists.

If you recruited pilots from the extreme end of bell curve you would, perhaps, be able to find some minor differences, but you don´t, and I am not aware of any sport or war which has shown any specific flying skill where finding and selecting from the extreme was necessary. Pilots are chosen based on an ability skill set and to fall with the percentile physically to fit the cockpit. An equal number of candidates with comparable abilities can be found within any ethnic group. The rest is selection, education and training.

The same argument can be applied to male/female aptitudes. Women, across the curve, will on average have worse spatial awareness than men, but we can and do find and train female pilots. Does it mean you will always be able to find a man who is a better pilot than a woman? No, you are dealing in probabilities, there are always wild cards.

And you still won´t be able to pinpoint the factor that, when you go to war, identifies the 2-3% who become the killers among the lambs...

[xraf]

Or maybe they were finding it difficult to learn using a foreign language?

If you had to do your courses in Arabic, maybe you would need double time. Don't forget, some of the students only learn the language just prior to starting training.

What rubbish! Condescending ill informed rubbish at that!

All the guys I met spoke virtually perfect English, were often schooled in the UK were well motivated to succeed and gave us a run for our money in the exam stakes. They generally came from well-off/upper class families but had to follow the protocol and 'double up' their training.

As QFIHawkman says stop searching for sinister stuff that isnt there.:=

[Time Flies]

TMJ

Not the famous HS by any chance?

[GlosMikeP]

What rubbish! Condescending ill informed rubbish at that!

All the guys I met spoke virtually perfect English, were often schooled in the UK were well motivated to succeed and gave us a run for our money in the exam stakes. They generally came from well-off/upper class families but had to follow the protocol and 'double up' their training.

As QFIHawkman says stop searching for sinister stuff that isnt there.:=
I can second that from my experiences as a lad in Singapore.

Gurkha boys arrived with us new boys who couldn't speak a word of English. The other Gurkah lads sat with them on the bus to and from school every day, talking to them in English and local dialect, as they read the Oxford English Dictionary from cover to cover.

By the end of the first term they spoke perfectly acceptable English and by the end of the first year, beat us at written grammar.

If they could do it, anyone can. Motivation is the key.

[FJJP]

What a boring thread.

Thank you. It helped me to make up my mind to go to the pub after all. I can get a sensible conversation there.

[alex_holbrook]

There will be races which are better at tolerating G's:- black people from southern Africa, i.e. what was Swaziland, Ethiopia etc., decended from say Zulu and other tribes, who were renowned for long distance running, won't be anywhere near as good at tolerating G's as the West African sprinters someone mentioned earlier. When humans train for long distance running, they generally have low muscle mass and widened blood vessells, so that a higher quantity of oxygenised blood can be transported around the body during aerobic excercise. The widened blood vessels mean that blood flows much easier from the head, meaning that they can stand less G's, due to the fact that they would black/red/grey out easier. The opposite can be said for the sprinting nations, which is why FJ pilots train more or less exactly like sprinters.

[bad livin']

Dead Dog seems to have fared ok as a white chap - he's in Runner's World this month talking about his sub 3hr marathon time!

[Jackonicko]

I find that I fly better in summer, especially when I'm relaxed and de-stressed after a holiday.

This has nothing to do with it, of course - I now realise that I'm actually flying better because I'm more tanned.

I was also talking to a pilot of Indian origin the other day, and since he made it to be single-seat/fast jet qualified, I can safely assume that he's a better pilot than I am, even when I'm at my most tanned.

From this, I would conclude that the darker brown you are, the better a pilot you must be.

Therefore there must be a direct relationship between skin colour/ethnicity and piloting ability.

It's obvious.

[tablet_eraser]

Hm. I think my post was, perhaps, a little harsher than is fair, so I apologise. GPMG has corrected the mistakes I referred to, which is fair enough. I certainly didn't mean to give the impression that I was implying he is racist, and have removed an intemperate remark. I've left my points of contention.

Incidentally, anyone who knows me knows I am not a reader of either the Guardian or the Daily Mail.

I maintain my general sentiment: whatever differences there are between people, the only thing that should ever matter is putting the right person for the job into the cockpit, behind the driving wheel, or into the office. Positive discrimination, after all, is racism by a different name.

[pr00ne]

tablet_eraser,

Ooops!

I'm sure you didn't MEAN to be so sexist and discriminatory when you said the right MAN in;

"the only thing that should ever matter is putting the right MAN for the job into the cockpit, behind the driving wheel, or into the office..."

now did you?

:)

Pr00ne

[worldpilot]

[quote=GPMG;2936681]This is not a small minded racsist post, it is a honest question.

There are many areas where ethnic background helps or impeads your ability to do something.

When will MONKEYS be replacing pilots in the cockpit?

[Luftpig]

Anyone heard of the Tuskegee Airman and the Red Tailed Devils?

[GlosMikeP]

[quote=GPMG;2936681]This is not a small minded racsist post, it is a honest question.

There are many areas where ethnic background helps or impeads your ability to do something.

When will MONKEYS be replacing pilots in the cockpit?
Ask any nav - they've been doing it for years. Why else are they called banana eaters? Where have you been!

[tablet_eraser]

tablet_eraser,

Ooops!

I'm sure you didn't MEAN to be so sexist and discriminatory when you said the right MAN in;

"the only thing that should ever matter is putting the right MAN for the job into the cockpit, behind the driving wheel, or into the office..."

now did you?

Pr00ne

I suppose I reap what I sow...

[wessex19]

Australians make better cricketers!!!!!!
The Ashes are coming home baby!!! lol

[TMJ]

TMJ

Not the famous HS by any chance?

That's who I was thinking; I'm sure I've heard him tell that story, but I can't remember he said it was him in the cockpit...

[Wyler]

Brick History

A simple statement based on several articles I have read. I know not whether they are based on fact or otherwise. Not a dig at the USA at all. Although, right now, you are a 'Target Rich' environment. :E :E

xraf

Ill informed? Two years teaching in Jordan. Two years teaching in Malaysia. Condescending? Not me, a simple statement based on considerable experience. They were slower because they were struggling with a foreign language. Most of the students (commissioned and otherwise) underwent a 10 week 'technical' introduction to English course just prior to basic professional training. Consequently, when we started there grasp was minimal. It improved markedly as the courses progressed but they often required up to twice the normal length of training because of the language barrier, not their individual ability. Even those who spoke very good conversational English struggled with the short, sharp technical speak required for the job. However, seeing as how 'everyone you spoke to' was perfect in the language, you obviously know better. :rolleyes:
There are definitely 'cultural' differences. A helicopter instructor in Jordan at the same time had more than one occasion when the student put his trust in Allah rather than the FRC's.

GlosMikep

I think children pick up languages incredibly quickly. However, my students were older than 12. :ugh:

[xraf]

xraf

Ill informed? Two years teaching in Jordan. Two years teaching in Malaysia. Condescending? Not me, a simple statement based on considerable experience. They were slower because they were struggling with a foreign language. Most of the students (commissioned and otherwise) underwent a 10 week 'technical' introduction to English course just prior to basic professional training. Consequently, when we started there grasp was minimal. It improved markedly as the courses progressed but they often required up to twice the normal length of training because of the language barrier, not their individual ability. Even those who spoke very good conversational English struggled with the short, sharp technical speak required for the job. However, seeing as how 'everyone you spoke to' was perfect in the language, you obviously know better. :rolleyes:
There are definitely 'cultural' differences. A helicopter instructor in Jordan at the same time had more than one occasion when the student put his trust in Allah rather than the FRC's.

I know I shouldn't bother:rolleyes: and apologies for the thread drift but.... RTFQ FFS!

I wasn't talking about the people you taught in their own country having had a 10 week intro course to a new language. I was talking about people who had been taught to speak English for most of their lives.

During the last few decades in the Middle East, for their 'nouveau riche' and upper classes generally a command of English was considered essential to the progress of their children. (Its Good for Business!) One of the most high profile examples of this would be the Bin Laden family, whose children were educated around the world, do business around the world and today have the resources to show what a good idea it was. :D

The young Officers we trained (here in the UK) came from this sort of background, were honoured to be here,and motivated to succeed for their family. They had been in the UK a lot longer than 10 weeks, had completed Officer training and often schooling here as well. Of course there were different standards in both understanding and interpretation and although their English wasn't always 'Perfect' it was often 'virtually so' which is in fact what I said previously.:ugh:

As a quick aside one guy (Jordanian I think) actually did so well in the groundschool (i.e. passed it all first time no problem) he convinced the authorities to let him carry on rather than going back and starting again!


Its not a question of 'knowing better' its a question of knowing what you know and relating your own experiences. As an instructor you should know that better than most. :=

Obviously, I don't have your "considerable experience" of teaching people who were struggling with the English language in the sunshine, However, I know what I saw, heard and lived with here in the UK.

As for trusting to Allah everyone has these stories to report. I believe the signed flap from 'that JP' is still on the sqn wall at L-O-O.:ok:

Regards

Xraf;)

[Wyler]

Fair enough, however, there was nothing 'sinister' in my posts. :ok:

[maxburner]

In a thread where the subject is competence in English (Wyler) it does not do to confuse 'there' with 'their'.

On the subject of black or other coloured pilots, one of the best I ever had the pleasure to fly with was one Bob Prest. Black, white, yellow or anywhere in between, he was excellent.

[Wyler]

The 'thread' is not about competence in English. :ugh:

However, point taken. :O

[maxburner]

Taken like a gentleman, Wyler. Good to see you playing the white man.

[Wyler]

You'll go straight to hell for that one. :} :}

[maxburner]

I'll buy you a beer when I get there!:)

[Jackonicko]

You think I'll serve either of you?

[maxburner]

So, I'll add Hell to the list of bars I'm not welcome in. At least they serve me with a smile at Taps.

[GPMG]

Whooaaa, since when did Hell have a barred list?

Won't be worth going if thats the case.

[Jackonicko]

If you want somewhere without standards of any sort, then go to Cardiff.....

[oojamaflip]

There was an interesting documentary on TV last year, where different methods of measuring intelligence were demonstrated, largely to prove that the IQ system was limited in its value.

One thing they demonstrated was that aboriginal people, although often scoring low in a regular IQ test, had remarkably high spatial awareness. This was what allowed them to go 'walkabout' without becoming disoriented. So, maybe in terms of getting you from A to B without modern navaids, an aboriginal pilot might be the person best suited.

[Mmmmnice]

Once flew with someone with considerably darker skin - the only thing I noted particularly was the lack of space in the tiny cockpit (Gazelle) - there again being a fat b***ard is not a feature confined to a particular ethnic groups as far as I am aware. Anyone know where this thread is going? Being poor, white, slow-mover trash I'm a bit slow on the uptake.

[femmers]

I maintain my general sentiment: whatever differences there are between people, the only thing that should ever matter is putting the right person for the job into the cockpit, behind the driving wheel, or into the office. Positive discrimination, after all, is racism by a different name.

What are you talking about and who is it directed to? Of course the only thing that matters is putting the right person for the job in the cockpit etc, but no one is disputing that.....the thread is merely asking the question of whether there are physical differences in different ethnic groups which may make them naturally more suited to flying.

[worldpilot]

What are you talking about and who is it directed to? Of course the only thing that matters is putting the right person for the job in the cockpit etc, but no one is disputing that.....the thread is merely asking the question of whether there are physical differences in different ethnic groups which may make them naturally more suited to flying.

For goodness sake, how do you want to determine if there are "physical differences in different ethnic groups which may make them "NATURALLY" more suited to flying?" I firmly understand that it is the right of freedom of speech, but this is, from my point of view, out of scope.
I can guarantee you it suffices to say that situational awareness, which is a key factor in flying, has nothing to do with ethnic affiliation.

[RobinXe]

I can guarantee you it suffices to say that situational awareness, which is a key factor in flying, has nothing to do with ethnic affiliation.

Of course you can back up your exasperated hyperbole with empirical evidence?