Ryanair [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Carmoisine

28th Jan 2006, 10:52

VC10L1011: Unlike the majority of people who will come on here and offer an opinion on a company they don't work for, as a recently hired Pilot I can offer you some facts, and not what I have heard down the pub. I do this as a warning and not looking for sympathy.

The first Major problem you’re going to encounter is the time between starting your type rating course and doing your base check, which is the point you start to get paid. This used to be 4-6 weeks. There are a frightening amount STILL waiting, UNPAID , 7+ MONTHS since they started the TR. This is not an isolated incident, it’s a regular occurrence.

So the first question is asking yourself can you live for the thicker end of a year with no money?

The Pay is the second Major problem. The Deal was changed at the end of the summer. You will now get zero sector pay during the first 6 months of your contract. It used to be that you would get sector pay after line check. No, you get a basic rate of STG 8900 per annum while training. This works out at about STG 7.50 an hour when flying 100 hrs a month, or about STG 270 a week. For Six months! After the first six months, you will still only be on half sector pay for the following six months. Don't forget sector pay is the larger part of the salary here. You might think like I did: "Fine I'll be at home it will be a tight few months, but I'll get through it," It will be worth it in the end.. ", you keep telling yourself. But hang on a minute, you will almost certainly be sent abroad for line training for 6 months, and then probably moved again after the 6 months. So you have to pay for 6 month worth of B&Bs. On STG 8900 a year.

It’s very hard to admit when you have made a mistake, no one wants to admit how foolish they have been, but I will. I was a fool to take this "job".

You will need 40K Euro at least to start. Type rating, 5-600 Euro for the uniform, airside pass, background checks, flights, hotels, B&Bs, salary for 7 months, and the sheer heartache of it all.

I was blinded by the whole thing, I thought I had done well to pass the interview; I was desperate for a job after waiting so long with no replies from any other companies.

The price of admission was too high however. I now have an unbelievable level of debt and I make less then the No.3 Cabin Crew for a year. Think very carefully before you take this thing on.

Would I do it again? No way.

Cipri

28th Jan 2006, 11:12

Couldn´t agree more with Carmoisine, Right now I am going through what he already lived, I finished the T/R at the end of July, and still waiting to start the line training, and right now I am really disappointed. Think well before you do anything. Before I use to fly piston, but at least I had a life. Maybe on the long run I´ll be pleased with my decision, although right now, I must admit that this has by far been the worst year in my entire life. By the way I got a deal with my bank to start paying for the 30K loan after a year, and I also signed the old contract, and I still can´t see the light at the end of the tunnel, imagine if I had signed that new contract Carmoisine is talking about, i´d probably be selling my body to mature ladies by now.

Regards

VC10L1011

28th Jan 2006, 11:21

Many thanks for the replies so far guys, keep em coming good or bad...

B200Drvr

28th Jan 2006, 15:30

Good posts, well done Guys, it takes alot to admit wrong decisions.
I hope this will make some wannabe's take note, That it really is not a good idea to rush out and get type rated without a firm offer, alot of you will end up leaving the industry with alot of debt and a bad taste for aviation. LOOK INTO EVERY POSSIBLITY, there are options you just have to find them.

Wodka

28th Jan 2006, 17:16

Fair play you guys ... coming on hear and admitting something was a mistake is not something many would do. Lets hope by these pieces of real life experience and advice that enough guys & girls are put off applying to this joke of an airline and this madness of paying for a job ends.

They are playing a cruel game with the hopes and dreams of people and get away with it because people are so desperate. A classic example of capitalism at its very worst imo :mad:

A320rider

28th Jan 2006, 18:23

good thread, but if you know to read a contract, you know what to expect.
personaly, I hate to work for free or even pay the airline. pay to wake up at 4 am, go work all day, and at the end of the day: you didnt make any money!

no way!

standardbrief

28th Jan 2006, 18:33

unbelievable reading

just a quick question for the guys who are signed up
did you have previous airline experience if so atpl?

and question for anybody who knows or has heard something (no opinions please) will they ever pay for a co-pilots type rating (senior fo) valid rumours of bonding are also welcome

sawotanao

28th Jan 2006, 19:10

I can't believe this is happening.You can obviously try other airlines with the type in those 'seven' mths? Hope you guys pull thru ok. Cipri & Carm' check your pm's. Cheers S'

Carmoisine

28th Jan 2006, 19:14

A320rider Please note I did not start this thread, I was answering a question asked by the thread starter. The problem for me is that the deal was changed before I signed the contract, I was already financially committed.

Standardbrief There are a fairly even spread of backgrounds on the mine, and the courses either side of mine.

The man in charge of the course at the school I was at showed me 3,000 applications he had recieved for the self sponsored type that he had recieved that year alone . So no, unless those 3,000 change their minds they won't be giving any free type ratings anytime soon.

Longchop

28th Jan 2006, 20:23

This makes some poor reading!
Is there only me who has never applied ro Ryanair or refused refused to pay for my Type Rating?? :{

Say again s l o w l y

28th Jan 2006, 21:56

This is a pretty terrible thing to happen to you, but I've heard the same from other ex-colleagues of mine who have (tried to) joined FR.

Though much written here about FR I take with a massive pinch of salt, as I have other friends who work for them and really seem to enjoy it. Mind you, since we all used to work for the guaranteed worst company in the industry, a salt mine in Siberia would probably have been better!

Bad luck to those that have been affected by this. I don't think there's much comfort anyone can offer when you've been shafted like this.

sawotanao

28th Jan 2006, 22:15

I think the guys whom have semi ok experiences with FR on this scheme are tucked up in bed , ready for their 4am report! I just hope your right 'I say again slowly'! I have friends who have done their time at Fr, then moved on to more socialble employment.......at ASDA! .... just kidding............Tescos.:{

JB007

29th Jan 2006, 09:25

Oh my god!
Have to confess, had no-idea this sort of cr*p was going on...I fly a TP and have bug*er all money/income, little help from the Bank Of Parents every now and then, but will never moan about it again!!

And no, Longchop, your not alone, I cannot afford to apply to FR!

Just noticed the advert on the top of this page "Ryananir - The High Pay Airline"

Longchop

29th Jan 2006, 10:20

Oh my god!

And no, Longchop, your not alone, I cannot afford to apply to FR!

[/B]

Well thats two of us who have already made a stand,eh!!:p

Allen Key

29th Jan 2006, 20:53

Well said maverick 777, I hope to see you, cipri, carmoisine and others in the coming weeks on line. We all have our stories (nightmares) about the FR scheme !

CamelhAir

29th Jan 2006, 23:05

showed me 3,000 applications he had recieved for the self sponsored type that he had recieved that year alone

Hmm, sounds very much like propaganda. I SERIOUSLY doubt there are that many fools out there, what with most other airlines recruiting.

ravage and scavenge and adore a chance to work for flybe, BMI, BMI regional, BACitiexpress, EasyJet, AerLingus, British Airways, CityJet, Monarch, First Choice, etc etc you name the airline................The bottom line is there is VERY LITTLE or nothing out there.

Virtually every airline on this list is recruiting big time, some are seriously stuck for pilots. There is a LOT out there. Low hour guys are getting recruited in a big way in a lot of companies.
And if you're wondering why I don't go, I'm in FR long enough to have avoided all the $hit the current newbies suffer. Would I do it again on the current terms? Absolutely no way. Not worth the constant hassle, sim checks, line checks, managment bull$hit.

Carmousine and Cipri, well done on standing up and calling it like it is. The rest of you wannabes take note.

Busbar

30th Jan 2006, 00:13

I cannot believe they have got this bad! When I joined FR on the TR scheme it was totally different. We got a salary after saftey pilot was released on line training and then after line check we went onto half sector pay for six months. After six months we got normal FO salary and full sector pay. Even when I was on half sector pay + cadet salary, it was still ok money, you could live happliy on it! There were also no delays when I joined, it was all really quick and on-line straight away.

To be honest I enjoy it and it's worked out well for me. But I have to say, reading the new terms and conditions of no sector pay for six months etc.. I don't think I would have bothered either! It really is a shame how they seem to sink lower all the time!

I wish you guys the very best of luck with it!

scroggs

30th Jan 2006, 08:49

Hmm, sounds very much like propaganda. I SERIOUSLY doubt there are that many fools out there, what with most other airlines recruiting.
Virtually every airline on this list is recruiting big time, some are seriously stuck for pilots. There is a LOT out there. Low hour guys are getting recruited in a big way in a lot of companies.

Actually, I do believe it! At Virgin, we have probably several thousand applicants on file. Many aren't qualified for the job either through lack of experience, the wrong licence, or lack of EU residency rights, but they apply anyway. We are looking for around 120 pilots this year, but it's now pretty difficult to find the kind of people we want - especially as we don't take people with less than around 3000 commercial hours.

Other airlines are less demanding of their applicants, but they still don't want to fill all of their new-joiner courses with ab-initio pilots as that creates quite serious experience gaps in the workforce. It also loads the training system hugely, as Ryanair are discovering. Therefore, even though there are many thousands of wannabe pilots out there (and not just from UK), it might be difficult for an airline to get the mix of experience it would like.

Scroggs

atse

30th Jan 2006, 09:34

maverick777 says: BUT i will think long-term!
Your problem is that the very situation you describe to be acceptable in the short term is working its way through the industry and will inevitably change the future - and not for the better. You also said:....... keep talking and researching - but make sure its to someone WHO ACTAULLY WORKS for Ryanair and not a bad-mouthing outsider.Had it not been for many outsiders the news would have been even slower in coming out. You don't seem to grasp the fact that once Ryanair has you in their clutches you will have a vested interest in keeping a low profile. Most people who have been royally screwed are simply unwilling to speak about it. At least we now have some people sending out warnings.

maverick777 I know that nothing will stop you. But I think you should be a bit more thoughtful and careful about what you are becoming involved in. Ryanair are not doing this as a favour to low-time pilots. Low time pilots are, for Ryanair, like Latvian cabin crew: easily manipulated, susceptable to propaganda and even grateful for the system of exploitation into which they enter. Above all, they are cheap and can be kept cheap by telling them "oh, sorry there was a mistake in your contract" - so you don't get .... full sector pay, or whatever.

A320rider

30th Jan 2006, 09:47

there is a pilots shortage actually, airlines ask for 3000-4000 eavy jet, with this kind of requirement, they are looking everwhere for pilots and then say they are desperated, but when you go see interviewers, the do not give a **** about you and bring on his desk the 2000-3000 CV.

this is the market, and as I have said in one of my posts, the world has a pool of pilots for many years.I think we are more than 15000 pilots only for Europe and airlines will just keep their minimum requirement at 2000-3000 hours.

this is like cinema in LA, many actors, few will be on the big screen.the rest of them will live with small jobs like taxi driver, truck driver,...or for bad paid TV advertising jobs.Still , hollywood say they have a shortage of actors...
and soon the car industry will say the same after kicking out 30'000 of workers.

about the job at ryanair, this is reserved for fortunate people, yes, they pay well (pilots pay well their Orealy!!)
unfortunately, I am too old to join them, but would I??? certainly not.

do not give up, airlines have a shortage of pilots....:ugh: :{ :ugh:

hazehoe

30th Jan 2006, 10:42

Maverick777 you posted a good explanation why things are going so wrong in this industry,there are other factors but lets stay on the thread and see how we get to the RHS at Ryanair.

On one end poeple are fighting to keep some of there T&C's in place(look at the SAS thread) on the other end poeple will except anything that is offered to them as long as they can fly(and most of the time it's a 737 or a A320 that we are after 1 year or less out of flight school).There are a lot of posts on self funding so lets leave that out of the discussion.

You describe how you basically went on your knees asking for a job regardless of pay etc etc, please let me fly i will sign anything you give me.

What i don't understand is why somebody wants to get in to flying so bad that they are willing to except whatever is offered, there are so many posts on here about FR and it looks to me that there are still enough poeple who say;i don't care i will do it anyway.You say you are looking at the long term.What do you think the long term is going to bring? Do you believe it's going to stop here or do you agree that the actions you take now will effect you and others in "the long term" ? You would fly for half of what you make now wouldn't you,even if it meant moving in with friends or parents for the next couple of years so you can fly ?

Anybody that wants to get in to flying these days has so many more options to research anything they want to know about this industry,just switch on the computer go to pprune and so many other sources and ask your self is this something i should do ? It's just a job and hard work most of the time with up to 900 hours a year!The good old days are gone and will not come back, even though i support the SAS guys i think they are fighting a loosing battle, SAS office tigers and others take notice of what is going on at FR and other places and they want to bring things in "line".

So why not do something else ? If i had to make a career choice today i don't think it would be a in aviation, do you really want this RHS so bad? why not make money in a other fields get a 25% share in a light airplane and take the wife out on a nice day and fly VFR down the UK coast?

Is there no self respect among people that want to get in to aviation these days? What do you think is so glamorous about the job today that you would be willing to do anything to get in? i am not trying to be sarcastic about this, it's a serious question.

Why on earth do you want to spend 50K in training, another 30k for a TR ,work for "free" etc etc, this will haunt you later on and we will see you and others back here asking what went wrong after you got a 1000 hours on the 737 at FR and could not get a good pay offer somewhere else to fly there 737's, because that's the thought isn't it, fly for free and pay now,i will make up for it later. There is a good change you wont make up for it an so in a few years we are back on here and ask what the F.ck went wrong? The bad seeds you put in the ground now you will harvest further down in your career when you believe that the payback time has come.

RHS to FR or any similar route, i don't think it's worth it. we will all find out the hard way!

Stratman

30th Jan 2006, 11:43

Good point you make regarding what do those seeking a first job thihk is so fantastic about flying commercially that they would seel their souls to get in.
Do not for a moment think that this job has anything in common with flying a light aircraft with friends on a day of you choice, that is a pleasure, this is a job. It has all the negative sides of most other jobs that you may have had, anti-social working hours, plenty of stress and fast diminishing terms and conditions. The Ryanairs of this world are well aware of the dreamers out there that think that operating a machine with jet engines is possibly the greatest thing they could ever do and therefore worth any sacrifice, either financial or in a personal sense. I know that many will take no notice until it is too late, its a shame that a work experience scheme is not available to try this industry for 6 months, that would change many peoples expectations believe me.

Canada Goose

30th Jan 2006, 12:13

Carmoisine and Cipri - fair play to you for giving such a brutal insight !

Hazehoe + Stratman - couldn't have put it better myself really !

Sprawler

30th Jan 2006, 13:44

Just curious, whats the net take home pay like, per month, after you complete the initial 6 month training contract?

CamelhAir

30th Jan 2006, 17:39

the negativity you portray is astounding!!!

You do yourself a disservice to confuse negativity with pragmatic reality. Obviously your mind is made up, so you have no interest in hearing it like it is, and thus you will refuse to do so. However, decrying what those of us in FR know to be true will not make them untrue.
The one reality that you really should consider though is that, while you seem to think that the appalling deal that FR will give will be short-term, that will not be the case. At what point do you plan to stand up to them and say, enough of the crap, now treat me properly??

willby

30th Jan 2006, 19:25

Hi
Just to get back to VC10's original question " how long to RHS after type rating",
hopefully it will be somewhat quicker now that CAE have been conducting the LST in addition to EMA since early January.
Willby

Allen Key

30th Jan 2006, 20:02

I am not sure about other contributors on this thread but after nearly two years seeking a flying job, when FR offered me the chance of a JOB flying one of there aircraft I thought long and hard about my options. With the base check yet to do with no money coming in I find it hard. If you ask me now would I recommend the scheme I would say NO. Despite working on the grd for a large national airline for ten years (Eager Beaver take note!) and having an airline background I really struggled to find employment. I too am thinking long term. I totally agree that in Ryanair eyes us cadet pilots are the Latvian cabin crew equivalent. Ask me the same question in two years time when the blue book has turned green and I am starting to earn a very good salary you will probably get another answer.

CamelhAir

31st Jan 2006, 08:26

If anybody wanted to get a start in this industry what are we to do?

I should have thought that was obvious. Apply elsewhere, fly TP, instruct. Absolutely no need to pay anyone again to fly if you put some effort in.
There are a lot of other companies recruiting. Have you tried them all?
People weren't born with 2,000hrs before FR decided to start screwing the market you know.

mikeyblueyes

31st Jan 2006, 10:33

To VC10L1011, maverick777,

There is an other way or solution you didn't expect : paying for your type rating and getting ....ABSOLUTELY NOTHING :mad::{ I mean no type rating, no LPC, no more license after a partial pass LST - first attempt -. ARE YOU READY ???

I read threads posted by others and a lot of have their own story. Now I'm gonna tell you mine : as you is was ready to pay for my type rating and I paid for. As you they tell me the usual stuff about the job, the pay, the contract, ... seems nice after a very long unemployement period.

I started last January 2005 for a B737/800 type rating at EMA, finished ground training and 19 SIM sessions begining of June 2005 - not the 6 to 8 weeks expected first - and was FIRED after a 1st LST partial pass ...
The JAR/FCL - and FR training manual - expect that you have at least 2 attemps for passing the LST : NO WAY :}.
For FR :
- it cost time so it means a lot a money, unacceptable for them
- the training manual has to be interpreted "on a certain way..." by DOB,
For the IAA :
- "Accordingly, and based on the relevant requirements of JAR-FCL, you should consider addressing your LST complaint to the Ryanair TRTO HoT who should be able to assist you." OK, but HE fired me, :E

I had to pass by a sollicitor to get my notice - 3 months after - and there is nothing to do about my type rapting : for the solicitors it's too long, too risky and too expensive, for the IAA : chek with your company and for FR : s.... you !
I paid 15.000 £ for a type rating + accomodations + uniform + ID card + travels .... FOR NUTS.

So the turn is down, everyone is happy, job well done.
I have no more licence, no job, a lot of debts for a type rating I will never get with FR, a strong wife - who support me every day - and a kid with special needs. That's for the human factors, but who care about them ?

You care about your future, OK.
But sometimes it doesn't works as you expected ... So are you still ready for ?
GOOD LUCK TO ALL OF YOU:ugh:

Busbar

31st Jan 2006, 13:13

I am highly surprised you got fired! There were two guys on my course that got a partial pass but they were not fired. I don't mean to insult anybody by saying this, but sometimes there are more hidden agendas behind getting fired. I have to say from my experience and all of my colleagues that joined with me, none of us had a problem at any stage with FR. I agree with what many of you say on this thread, but I can only tell you what my personal experience was and I read in disbelief sometimes what Ryanair are "supposedly" doing!

Irishboy

31st Jan 2006, 13:30

Why do all the newbies earning the crap salary starting off with FR think it will get better for them down the line? Look at what busbar said, he can't believe the conditions for newbies compared to what it was like for him when he was starting off. Do you not think that by the time you get to busbar's stage that those conditions will have deteriorated as much?

mikeyblueyes

31st Jan 2006, 14:03

to busbar,

I was highly surprised too ...

There is no hidden agendas in this case, but maybe hidden truths, facts who needs to be denied for and by young pilots.
I'm an experienced pilot, used to operate worlwide, but unfortunatly for me, who doesn't find a pilot job for the last two years.
I performed a good LST partial pass CONFIRMED by the Instructor who was on the left seat... but the HoT decided another way before leaving for his week-end !:mad:

That's my life today and I can't denied these facts. So you believe me or not, it's on your way... but VC10L1011 asked for "an honest report to RHS ar Ryanair please..." .

Cipri

31st Jan 2006, 14:17

I should have thought that was obvious. Apply elsewhere, fly TP, instruct. Absolutely no need to pay anyone again to fly if you put some effort in.
There are a lot of other companies recruiting. Have you tried them all?
People weren't born with 2,000hrs before FR decided to start screwing the market you know.

Please don´t assume things are necessarily that easy, After 4 years flying piston ME aircraft, taking considerable risks, and being away from home for months, logging 1500 hours, sending cv´s to every single company in the planet, either TP or JEt, Corporate, Cargo, Airline etc, Being fluent in Spanish, French and English. The only ones that called me up for an interview were Ryanair, and what was I suposed to do, let go the opportunity...don´t think so. I wasn´t born with 1500 hours, but its not like working hard to achieve them made a difference to my employment perspectives. I guess the market was already screwed when I arrived. The people seeking jobs are not the ones that need to fix the market, its the people inside (who have the strength) that need to protect it.

A320rider

1st Feb 2006, 21:44

You also watch your logbook fill up with 737NG experience!

be rated and be online first!!!
ryanair has nothing to lose to get you out. they got your money and they have thousand of new applicants each year ready to take your seat.
do not believe because someone offers you a job, you will get the job. I know guys who have been kicked out after a few hours sim, or never start their training simply because they have decided to pay the company to work.

go for it, and good luck to you.

Sky Goose

7th Feb 2006, 08:01

I have also been qualified with my fATPL for over 2 years now.

Have been to one dissapointing interview where I had to compete with a coulpe of hundred blokes for a couple of jobs. This has been my only sniff at a job.

2 years ago I would also not have considered paying for my type, but you have to be realistic, if I would have done the RYR SSTR a couple of years ago I would be in a very good position now.

The Ryanair scheme is not all bad, you dont have to pay for your base check or line training, and the possiblity of permanent employment are good if you perform. When it comes to SSTR's this is the one to do.

I have been fortunate enough to get an invitation at assesment in the near future and hope dearly that I succeed and can finally get my career started.

If I have a 6 or 8month gap between type rating and line training....so be it, there is no shortage of work in the UK, and I will use this time to save more funds to see me through the 'dry' year that follows.

All the best to you all.

Sky Goose

NG-dude

7th Feb 2006, 08:57

The 6-7 month wait for new F/Os in 2005 can largely be attributed to the fact that they had to re-train a lot of -200 skippers to their new aircraft. This has now been more or less completed, on top of that all crew hours will be reset in april which means line training captains will be there to get you through quickly. On top of that, summmer is coming up fast and they need all the pilots they can get ready to fly the line by then. The notion that Ryanair keeps you waiting on purpose "until they need you" is pure nonsense, they needed you yesterday.

Apart from a good income, stable roster and nice aircraft consider the fact that Ryanair are booming in a market where plenty of operators are struggling to stay alive. This company is in a position to wreak havoc on any market they choose in europe and pressure existing operators.

Of course there's a sting when you first join with plenty of negative cashflows but if you're in a position to cope with that and get past the initial hurdle then I say go for it. People on pprune talk about funding your own uniform, ID card and so on. What's 200-250 pounds in the grand scheme of things? You drop 40-50k on training and 20k more on the rating and then you moan about your ID badge? Come on... Not getting served coffee on board, having to bring your own lunch, these things are so minor you won't notice them. I'd rather pack my own lunch anyhow, you want to eat airlinefood 5 days in a row? No thanks.

Part of the success story is because of the fact that crews mind themselves concerning currency, uniforms, food, scheduling and so on. The organizational overhead becomes tiny compared to the oldschool operators allowing them to focus on what they should be doing which is flying passengers around.

:ok:

ChocksAwayUK

7th Feb 2006, 09:14

Hello Michael! ;)

LegsUpLucy

7th Feb 2006, 10:23

Is it true that ryanair have agreed a 5on 4off roster pattern recently??

scroggs

7th Feb 2006, 10:24

Of course there's a sting when you first join with plenty of negative cashflows but if you're in a position to cope with that and get past the initial hurdle then I say go for it. People on pprune talk about funding your own uniform, ID card and so on. What's 200-250 pounds in the grand scheme of things? You drop 40-50k on training and 20k more on the rating and then you moan about your ID badge? Come on... Not getting served coffee on board, having to bring your own lunch, these things are so minor you won't notice them. I'd rather pack my own lunch anyhow, you want to eat airlinefood 5 days in a row? No thanks.

It's about respect and acknowlegement of the value of your employees. I have no problem with pilots in a probationary position being paid less than those with unrestricted line qualifications; they take supervision and training, which is expensive. No profession in the world pays its new hires the same as those who've been around for a while - but I can't think of any that pay nothing to their employees, for however short a period.

As for paying for uniforms, if you want me to wear your uniform you should pay for it. If you want me to pay for it, then allow me to get it at a tailor of my choice, with my own choice of lining and other details that enable me to express myself - even the RAF allowed that! The other items (pension etc) are negotiable in any line of work, but it's a sign of the imbalance between demand and supply of the kind of pilots Ryanair uses that these things are not part of the package.

Ryanair is free to offer whatever employment package it wishes, so long as it's within the law. If they get enough applicants, they're under no obligation to change that package and will, wherever they can, reduce the costs of employment by whatever means at their disposal. The money they save goes into the pockets of others in the organisation, make no mistake about that. The bottom line is profit, of course, but look at where the profit goes. If it's into equipment and improvements to customer service, all well and good. If the workforce gets to share in the profit, so much the better, as long as the pot is shared equitably. In too many companies it isn't, and senior management are rewarded way out of proportion either to their contribution or to the good of company morale.

You guys have a choice, though it might not look like it sometimes! Use it wisely.

Scroggs

Busbar

7th Feb 2006, 13:34

What a lot of people forget is one basic fact. An airline is a business. It is there to make MONEY! And that is the bottom line. That's all it will ever be about. They are not flying clubs there to fulfill our dreams of flying, that's what the local flying school is for!

Now, I disagree with the new terms and conditions that I read about on this thread for the cadets, but some of the replies e.g. from scroggs. are very valid points. You will not earn £70k+ when starting out in any profession, especially when you have 250 hours and a F/ATPL in aviation. But the long term prospects are good. The money, lifestyle, roster stability, promotion prospects are very good in FR and I would encourage anybody to look at the long term picture with them.

This is aimed at A320rider:

I follow your posts on this thread and others and I notice you are very unhappy with paying out money to develop your career. Ok, you have a point in as much that Airline's should be paying for their Pilot's training and conversions. Granted, however, the industry is not the same as it used to be, and the more you jump up and down about how unfair the whole thing is, it will not make a blind bit of difference! Because if you won't take the job with FR and pay for the TR, the next man/woman in the que will, so in effect all you are doing is serving yourself an injustice. To change things like paying for TR's, it has to be a massive stand of lots of people against companies, not individuals in the corner shouting how unfair the whole thing is. And even then, it will still be difficult.

I wish you guys all the best with it! (Hope that's not upset too many folks :ok: )

mikeyblueyes

7th Feb 2006, 19:42

NG dude quote :
...People on pprune talk about funding your own uniform, ID card and so on. What's 200-250 pounds in the grand scheme of things? You drop 40-50k on training and 20k more on the rating and then you moan about your ID badge? Come on...

It's always too much when you have to pay for a type-rating YOU DON'T GET and so don't get the job, for paying uniform + ID cards + travels ... BEFORE ALL TRAINING (and it worth more than 800 £).
As you don't seemed to be a pilot, at the top of your tower you'll have sometime to remember what Henry Ford - who create the Ford T - says : "The key of the success is to look at the matter the same way than your adversary as much as your's...":}

NG-dude

7th Feb 2006, 20:44

Not quite sure what you're getting at here... if you do the type rating you get hired. If you don't pass the type rating you don't get hired, what's so strange about that? If you didn't make it through the training then you probably don't have what it takes so they let you go. Seem reasonable to me... And what exactly makes you think I'm not a pilot?

If you're waiting around for the good times to roll again, where training is paid for and there's a limo waiting to drive you to the hotel at the end of the day then I wish you the best of luck and infinite amounts of patience to go with it. :E

mikeyblueyes

7th Feb 2006, 21:14

I just wrote about people who don't respect the rules ..., the JAR/OPS regulations and take your money to throw you out as rubbish !! At the time you PAY for a type rating you have to get it and not TO BE FIRED AFTER THE 1ST ATTEMPT OF LST:mad:. So don't wrote about something you don't care.

ps : what's about limo and hotel ? who asked for this ?

Cipri

8th Feb 2006, 07:24

so be it, there is no shortage of work in the UK, and I will use this time to save more funds to see me through the 'dry' year that follows.
All the best to you all.
Sky Goose

Its not a matter of work shortage, you tell me who is going to employ you on a weekly basis, I remind you that during the nearly 7 months I have been waiting for the line training, I had to keep checking my roster every single Friday, because no one gave me a rough idea of my start date. that´s what makes it so painful! If someone had told me beforehand that it would take me so long I wouldn´t have left my previous employment.

Sky Goose

8th Feb 2006, 08:46

jon652

8th Feb 2006, 15:29

Im just wondering, Does nobody think Ryan air will change their view to pilots considering they now need pilots at all of their 15 Bases ? Would that idiot O'Leary seriously rather have his new 737's sat on the ground as he cant get pilots than perhaps help the new low-hours pilot just a little bit? :uhoh:

Cipri

8th Feb 2006, 17:35

I appreciate you frustrations, but would it not be possible to negotiate with your previous employer to return on a contract basis.
If bad came to worse you could flip burgers or pull pints.....
All im saying is that being in a bit of a sticky situation for a few months is worth it if you will soon be staring on your career, and it not instructing or doing air taxi work....it'll be flying a brand new 737-800...and be earning good money doing it in a few years. To me half a year in limbo for this is a small price.
BTW... your too young to be worring about an income....buy and old van and a surfboard and hang around Cornwall till you get the call:ok:

Hi Sky goose,

The thing is that I quit a flying job after 4 years, and trust me there are not much employers who you can negotiate with for a week to week contract, , so its not like I am just starting, and I really wish I could save enough money by pulling pints as you said, but I don´t think so. I also wish I didn´t have to worry about money a go surfing, but the loan goes in every month and if you add up other expenses, I need at least 1500 to get through. Although you are right about being in Limbo, its better than nothing, I just hope I end up in heaven rather than in hell.

Regards

Sky Goose

8th Feb 2006, 17:46

Although you are right about being in Limbo, its better than nothing, I just hope I end up in heaven rather than in hell.
Regards

Hey Cipri,

There is bound to be some positive movement on your side shortly, as I got a call from my MCC instructor that FR desperatly needed blokes to fill a March 7th slot for assesment.

I dont quite understand why they need people to fill the slots when they have all you blokes in the wings. Mabye gearing up for summer ?

Cant imagine youll be in limbo land for too much longer...? or am I missing something?

Good luck dude...

Goose

LOOP2STAND1

8th Feb 2006, 19:40

BTW... your too young to be worring about an income....buy and old van and a surfboard and hang around Cornwall till you get the call:ok:
Or you could take my right seat in FR and ill bugger off to the surf! after six months and 600hrs I need a break!:}

glennox

9th Feb 2006, 08:12

scroggs

9th Feb 2006, 08:53

Sky Goose

9th Feb 2006, 09:52

Work for free and sod the rest of you? Nice attitude! I'm sure you'd like my job, too - and would be prepared to do it for a great deal less than I get paid, if you could. Fortunately, they don't give jobs like mine to people who have no idea of their value in this business - yet. I hope they never do.
Scroggs
Dear Scroggs,

I appreciate you have vastly more expirence than most and want to keep the T&C for the industry at a certain level. I just wonder if you know what it is like to hope for anything resembeling a flying job for almost 30 months after your qualification.
So what do you suggest we do, boycott Ryanair?....yeah right..then the next bloke in line gets the job and 2 years down the line he has 1500 hours 737, and I have 245 piston. And FR still have a list of 5000 applicants, allot of good that did !

I have worked very hard to secure the funds for a TR and dont really appriciate being told I'm destroying the T&C's of the industry, as alennox said, if you dont like the way FR do things, apply elsewhere.

ps We do appreciate the value of our work.....and we would dearly like the chance to get a job, some experience and then we will be rewarded for it.
Dont forget, FR do pay their experienced pilots above industry standards !

I await the onslaught ! Be gentle mr scroggs.:ok:

glennox

9th Feb 2006, 10:23

Thanks for the support Sky Goose. As for Scroggs, you are obviously an experienced pilot with lots of hours under your belt, well done to you. I'm still in the low hour bracket like Sky Goose and if me getting my hours up means a little pain initially then so be it.

As Sky Goose points out FR do pay above the industry standard when you have hours under your belt.

I do value myself highly, that’s why I am willing to suffer a little to gain a hell of a lot. Please put yourself in my shoes and ask yourself what would you do.

It's not an attempt to undercut anyone. Me working for little or no money initially will have no impact on FO's with 500hrs or Capt's with 2000hrs in FR at all. Your argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny. At the end of the day in trying to secure my first RHS I am thinking about myself and no one else as are all in the same boat as myself.

May I reiterate: if you don't want to work for FR "DON'T APPLY"

Good luck to you Sky Goose in securing a RHS and best of luck for the future Scroggs.

LOOP2STAND1

9th Feb 2006, 10:36

Cipri

9th Feb 2006, 10:36

To all those who have been complaining about having a RHS to plank their ass in, please shut up. There are still a lot of low houred guys out there who would be quite willing to swap places with all of you. Yes you had to pay for your own TR, so what, the majority of us pay for our basic training also and earn no money for well over a year. Don't try and come back to me with "there were no passengers during your basic training". I suggest if you really want to stick it to the airlines talk young people out of coughing up 80k for the basic training.
There is no doubt that the industry is on an upward trend at the moment and if you don't like FR then quit!! With all due respect to FR they are the only airline in Europe that have been hiring en masse since the industry took a dive so I think they deserve a little credit for that. Yes you get the short end of the stick for a while but after that you'll be on good money and can build enough hours to go somewhere else if you wish.
I am still looking for my first RHS and would happily swap places with anyone in FR who hates where they are.
I'm getting really pi**ed off with these types of threads, if you don't want to work for FR don't f**king apply, leave it to those who want to fill the RHS.

Please read your post and see who is the one complaining, the only difference is that the ones higher up the ladder complain about different things than you, since you have a different point of view. I am sure there are plenty of people who couldn´t spend those 80K in the initial training, like you said, and wish they were on your position to at least be elegible for a pilot job, and that doesn´t take away your right to complain... And just let you know, that if I complain its because I can, since a while ago I got called for an interview (based on my cv, since no one helped), passed the assement, made a big economic effort, and got my TR. And If you wish to swap places, note there is a process to get where I am now, it wasn´t like I woke up one morning and won the national lottery. By the way if you don´t like to read these posts, its easy, just don´t!

Sky Goose;

In fact since I finished my TR they have been running around 2 courses per month, which means there is a big and I mean really big pile of pilots waiting behind... Probably after April when the Line trainers have hours to spend, we´ll begin rolling, until then I guess we´ll have to sit back and relax.

Cipri

9th Feb 2006, 10:43

Maybe I should shed some light on my FR experience I was assesed in Feb 05 (about a year after finishing training) offered a place on a TR course at SAS in April base checked in June and started line training in late July and released on the line in September. For me the whole process worked fine. I really love the job and have found working for the company fine. (maybe because I have nothing to compare it to). My roster has been a rock solid 5-3 since starting on the line. The money is good once off the half sector pay crap and the majority of the skippers I fly with out of STN feel the same. We all winge and moan a little but as far as I can remember I have done that in every company I have ever worked in. I was low hours (300) modular.

Totally agree, thats how it should have been, and its the reason why I am complaining about the 6 1/2 monhs (and incresing) that I have already been waiting to get the linetraining done. Imagine, loopstand1, I did my assement on May 05, and no one has bother to answer my enquiries, about my present situation. any way, well done, and hope to be as happy as you are soon

glennox

9th Feb 2006, 11:46

Cipri it's great to hear the other side of the story form someone. I fully appreciate that people may have a bad experience working for a large organisation, not necessarily an airline I might add.

I am not trying to annoy anyone with my posts and if I offended anyone I apologise unreservedly.

Thanks for the posts in support of my point and good luck to you all.

CamelhAir

9th Feb 2006, 12:01

Me working for little or no money initially will have no impact on FO's with 500hrs or Capt's with 2000hrs in FR at all.

The naivety... When you have 500hrs or 2000hrs or whatever and some 200hr wonder is willing to do the same job you're competing for for half the money, come back then and tell us how you feel.

Scroggs - well said :ok:

NG-dude

9th Feb 2006, 12:02

Just curious about the people moaning about self-funded ratings.

I would argue that ANYONE who funds his/her initial training CPL/ME/IR is creating an unfair and degraded situation for the good folks who otherwise might've had full airline sponsorships available to them.

That's the argument right, that SSTRs undermine the people who went and became pilots and now watch newbies take "their" jobs through money?

Well... If nobody funded any training at all themselves what do you think airlines would be forced to do? Forgetting military pilots who by now get stuck with 10 year contracts when they start, the airlines would have to offer complete sponsorships to aspiring pilots. Naturally the selection process would be stern and fewer would get in but airlines would get theirs in the end.

So by funding your own training, effectively you're removing the sponsorships out there forcing the people who would've been good enough for sponsorships to also fund their own training. The reason we don't hear people screaming bloody murder about this is that a. nobody knows if they would've been selected for such a sponsorship and b. it's a much smaller group of people. The fact still remains though, that these people get shafted because YOU (and I) pay for training.

Which ultimately begs the question, who deserves to be a pilot?

glennox

9th Feb 2006, 12:59

CamelhAir give me an example of an FO or Capt in FR competing with a low houred pilot for the same job. My post specifically referred to FR where FO's and Capt's with hours under their belts get well paid.

NG-dude you have a very valid point, if people stopped self funding their initial training the airlines would have to offer full or at least part sponsorship to people, problem solved.

As for being naive, well, if you mean fully understanding the market at the moment then I am very naive!!!

CamelhAir

9th Feb 2006, 13:42

CamelhAir give me an example of an FO or Capt in FR competing with a low houred pilot for the same job

Guys looking to get out of FR and into the likes of the big charters, BA etc.
Experienced FO's in other companies who might like to move to FR or Easy etc.
I could go on with examples all day, but can't really be bothered.
Don't you get it, other companies only have to offer a package slightly better than FR, to get people. This is where the rot. You can go on all day about moving apres Fr to better jobs, but your very actions are reducing the likelihood of those better jobs actually being much better. Wake up.

Sky Goose

9th Feb 2006, 14:02

Guys looking to get out of FR and into the likes of the big charters, BA etc.
Experienced FO's in other companies who might like to move to FR or Easy etc.
I could go on with examples all day, but can't really be bothered.
Don't you get it, other companies only have to offer a package slightly better than FR, to get people. This is where the rot. You can go on all day about moving apres Fr to better jobs, but your very actions are reducing the likelihood of those better jobs actually being much better. Wake up.
So CamelhAir, what would you like us low houred pilot's do ?
Perhaps we should hang around in the 'wings' for a few more years...perhaps shell out £6k for a FI rating so we can get a job earning £12k a year. Or mabey fly in africa and leave the family at home, because of the nature of contract work in africa. (ive been there looking and it aint to easy to get a job either).
All this to 'protect' the T&C of pilots already in the airlines, what other industry has this bizzare situation ?
I think perhaps you need to do some waking up yourself.:confused:
All the items you mention above seem to be the natural progression of your average pilot....what makes it so wrong ? Is the ambitious pilot or wannabe a danger to the T&C of the established pilot ?
mmmmm.....sorry I just dont get it :confused:

glennox

9th Feb 2006, 15:23

CamelhAir, pilots with experience were leaving the likes of FR and Easy to go to the larger carriers like BA & Virgin long before low houred pilots were paying for type ratings.

Anyway the larger more established carriers didn't give you a free TR either, they recouped a portion of the training costs through a bonding arrangement. FR doesn’t have a bond you so you are free to find another flying job whenever you like and with a 737NG TR on your licence that wouldn’t be too hard.

Don't you get it at all? Like Sky Goose I am frustrated with waiting around for a RHS and if FR offered my a position on one of their TR courses I would jump at it and give absolutely no thought to the T&C's of anyone else.

I personally know a number of ex-FR pilots who paid for TR back in 2002 who have moved on to airlines in the Middle East and Asia, the one common denominator with all of them is how glad they were to have gotten a RHS from FR initially.

Every industry is the same whether your an engineer, doctor, lawyer, barrister etc etc. All these people pay for the own training i.e. University Degree Courses. They all start off on a salary that is low in comparison to colleagues with more experience yet that hasn't had an adverse impact on future earnings for any of them, nor will low houred pilots paying for their 1st TR.

It's the way of the world, unfortunately aviation is more costly but if you don't like it do something else.

757manipulator

9th Feb 2006, 15:44

CamelhAir, pilots with experience were leaving the likes of FR and Easy to go to the larger carriers like BA & Virgin long before low houred pilots were paying for type ratings.
And whats your point? this is the natural progression of experience..so what?
Anyway the larger more established carriers didn't give you a free TR either, they recouped a portion of the training costs through a bonding arrangement. FR doesn’t have a bond you so you are free to find another flying job whenever you like and with a 737NG TR on your licence that wouldn’t be too hard
Depends who you work for, yes you get bonded (by definition a bond comes into force if you leave before a set period of service) this is DIFFERENT than a pay as you earn agreement, which so many on here confuse with a bond, ala Easy TRSS, CTC etc...so get the facts straight:hmm:
Don't you get it at all? Like Sky Goose I am frustrated with waiting around for a RHS and if FR offered my a position on one of their TR courses I would jump at it and give absolutely no thought to the T&C's of anyone else.

Pathetic, like a rat trying to crawl out of a bucket of ****e:mad:
Every industry is the same whether your an engineer, doctor, lawyer, barrister etc etc. All these people pay for the own training i.e. University Degree Courses. They all start off on a salary that is low in comparison to colleagues with more experience yet that hasn't had an adverse impact on future earnings for any of them, nor will low houred pilots paying for their 1st TR.

Wrong yet again, the difference here is that once you are qualified initially i.e. fresh out of varsity you can then commence your training on the job, ala lawyers (public defenders) doctors (junior registrars) accountants (junior CA's) etc etc..so there is a MASSIVE difference here.
The key thing in all of this is that you..and your idiotic work for nothing mates are destroying the T & C's for those of us already in the industry. You dont work here, I do, go away and grow up, better yet if you want to work for little or no pay..head off to China or India where your remuneration will fit in better with what you feel is adequate.

152wiseguy

9th Feb 2006, 16:16

Why don't you pay to fly people try and think about it like this.

It's your own future terms and conditions you are eroding just as much as anyone else's. Maybe if you guys did go out and do the hard yards, such as a couple of years instructing/taxi flights or whatever, when a job on a nice shiny jet comes around you might find the type rating is paid for and better still you get paid a proper wage from day one.

Everyone would then be better off including yourselves.:ok:

Sky Goose

9th Feb 2006, 16:17

How can we be so thoughtless……
Let me inform the 6000 hopeful applicants that it’s a bad idea to join the FR SSTR scheme.
Id feel terrible if it affected your lifestyle in any way.
Mate…..its happening and like it or not…...people are going to do it…. I don’t agree with it either….but I aint getting no younger in a few years I’ll be in my mid thirties and becoming more unemployable by the day.
Instead of bashing wannabes (rather abusively) maybe you could give some realistic advice on getting on the job ladder.

Captain Douglas

9th Feb 2006, 17:22

Its not often that i feel its necessary to make a post, only a few in so many years. I cannot understand the impatience of wannabees coming out of these schools with 200 hours feeling that they have the god given right to jump into the RHS of a jet.

Your impatience is changing the terms and conditions of our industry and until you fly for an airline you will never appreciate this. It took me 6 years to get my first airline job and that was on a TP, before that I instructed, flew air taxis for next to nothing to increase my employability. It wasn't for 7 years that i got offered to fly in the RHS of a jet for a well established charter airline. I was offered a job, the TR was paid for, yes I was bonded for 2 years but that is totally acceptable. I am paid a good salary as a SFO and I believe that there are not enough people coming through the system with similar backgrounds. WHY IS THIS? As alot of you guys are prepared to solicit yourselves in the desperation of flying a jet.

If you love flying, go and instruct for a few years, fly air taxis and then apply to the Airlines. You may now be offered a job with better terms and conditions!

I do feel strongly about this, it is not that I feel that I have come from the best background and it makes a better calibre of pilot. I have struggled through very hard times (Septmeber 11) BUT I have never paid for a Type Rating and will never do so. You guys are ruining our industry and make no mistake about that!

willby

9th Feb 2006, 18:17

Hi,
I think it's unfair to blame newly qualified pilots for the deterioration in the T&C's of of pilots in the low cost airlines.
Surely it is the publics' insatiable appetite for low cost travel which is the main reason. Market forces will always prevail in any industry. After studying hard for years to realise their dream to fly, it is only to be expected that newbies will do whatever it takes to make the dream a reality.

AlexL

9th Feb 2006, 18:35

CamelhAir

9th Feb 2006, 18:37

757manip, captain douglas, 152 wiseguy well said gentlemen. Nail on the head stuff.

The argument that docs/lawyers etc get paid less at the beginning is horse$hit. They do because they are less use to anyone with little experience. On the other hand, an FO fulfils the same task, whether with 200 hours or 2000. Obviously the experienced guy is a whole lot more use to the skipper, but in terms of fulfilling the legal requirement to have an FO, either will suffice.
You people really are stupid if you consider FR's slave scheme even remotely similar to the traditional bonding method.
Finally, glennox, if FR offered my a position on one of their TR courses I would jump at it and give absolutely no thought to the T&C's of anyone else. , I would advise you to never express such a sentiment to anyone you ever fly with. Pathetic. Beyond belief. I sincerely hope you are not indicative of the calibre of the next lot of SS recruits. :yuk: :mad:

Baron rouge

9th Feb 2006, 19:30

Camelhair, 757manip, captain douglas, 152 wiseguy and all the foul mouthed guys who keep whinging about these young guys ruining your T&C's, just one question: What have YOU done to keep the T&C's the way they where 15 years ago... Camelhair you are so pathetic, you have not even been able to forbid your boss to supress drinking water to the flight deck:mad:

Show us how good you are, and after you have prouved more than a hollow fart you'll be able to speak up !!!

757manipulator

9th Feb 2006, 21:01

757manip - go do your homework again. My wife is a solicitor and we had to pay postgrad lawschool fees ourselves, and then they work for 2 years on very lowpay. (called articles on about 10-12 grand a year). Barristers pay for law school and work UNPAID for 2 years. These days they have to pay the undergrad costs aswell.
Stop bloody whinging, or make sure that your arguments actually hold water.

Actually, I dont know what Law School your wife went to (nor I guess does it matter) but my other half who is also a Barrister, wasnt asked to contribute to any post-grad costs, infact she was able, through her own resourcefulness to secure a position alongside a well respected and reputable firm.
So yes my arguement does hold water..(her classmates have had similar experiences)
Camelhair, 757manip, captain douglas, 152 wiseguy and all the foul mouthed guys who keep whinging about these young guys ruining your T&C's, just one question: What have YOU done to keep the T&C's the way they where 15 years ago...
SIMPLE..I havent paid for a type-rating (I was an FI, flown turbo-props, and Biz-Jets) Ive turned down positions where I was asked to, oh yeah and Im a member of BALPA...just ask the guys at easyjet as to how things can change with a bit of collective effort
:)

CamelhAir

9th Feb 2006, 22:00

Camelhair you are so pathetic, you have not even been able to forbid your boss to supress drinking water to the flight deck

Unfortunately FR is full of self-sponsored individuals who are not interested in collective effort. By the time they've seen the light the damage is done.
Easy drivers have the right idea and I applaud wholeheartedly their efforts.

hazehoe

9th Feb 2006, 22:15

Why anybody believes if you offer somebody to pay for your TR and work for free that they will give you free drinks and or food is really beyond me.Why do i believe that one is a result of the other.This is the joke of the day:D

goingdown

10th Feb 2006, 01:27

it seems to me that a good bunch of FR newbies join with 250-ish hours.FR is taking advantage of your experience level,and ask you what is to me,absolutely disgraceful....But it seems that with 250tt and be in the RHS of a 73 is unheard of in many countries.Don'ttry to go faster than the music,GA,Turboprop,small-medium jet etc...Don't get fooled by what is bright...just my 2 cents

glennox

10th Feb 2006, 08:14

757manipulator referring to people who are willing to join FR's SSTR scheme as Pathetic, like a rat trying to crawl out of a bucket of ****e is highly offensive. I thought this forum was about information and different points of view. If you cannot make your point without resorting to insults like that then don't post replies.

I'm curious as to your status, did you pay for your initial training?
Did you pay for your FI course?

Captain Douglas IT IS NOT YOUR INDUSTRY. It is controlled by consumer choice and market forces. Did you pay for your initial training?

I'm also curious as to what both of you have done to maintain your T&C's. Don't blame newly qualified pilots for mistakes you've made in the past.

757manipulator

10th Feb 2006, 08:29

Nice one Glennox, take me out of context.................:hmm:
If you read what was highlighted, my tirade was directed towards your attitude of someone saying that you would pay for a TR and then sod the T & C's of those around you. In that sense you forfeit the right to preach to me about the rights and wrongs of what Ive said.

I wonder how you'd feel if you were next in line..and told you now had to work for free??:hmm:

Jonty

10th Feb 2006, 08:40

Dear Scroggs,

I appreciate you have vastly more expirence than most and want to keep the T&C for the industry at a certain level. I just wonder if you know what it is like to hope for anything resembeling a flying job for almost 30 months after your qualification.
So what do you suggest we do, boycott Ryanair?....yeah right..then the next bloke in line gets the job and 2 years down the line he has 1500 hours 737, and I have 245 piston. And FR still have a list of 5000 applicants, allot of good that did !

I have worked very hard to secure the funds for a TR and dont really appriciate being told I'm destroying the T&C's of the industry, as alennox said, if you dont like the way FR do things, apply elsewhere.

ps We do appreciate the value of our work.....and we would dearly like the chance to get a job, some experience and then we will be rewarded for it.
Dont forget, FR do pay their experienced pilots above industry standards !

I await the onslaught ! Be gentle mr scroggs.:ok:

I agree with Scroggs.

We have all been there, 200 hours 25 on a multi engine aircraft, and not a hope of a job. None of us fell into our current positions we all worked hard and had a bit of luck on our side, and so will you. We have all had to make sacrifices to pursue our dream, and so will you, but flying for nothing is not one of them.

Jaydee27

10th Feb 2006, 08:42

Found out yesterday that in November and December, Ryannair had a net loss of pilots for the first time. Tend to think that with a new aircraft arriving weekly, Ryannair need to do something.

BTW, found this out while down at the CAA having a jet rating added to my license that I didn't have to pay for, after instructing for a couple of years to get the hours and experience up...

glennox

10th Feb 2006, 08:58

757manipulator you didn't answer my questions.

Did you pay for your initial training and your FI course?

Taken out of context or not what you wrote was offensive!!

hazehoe

10th Feb 2006, 09:07

Glennox,

You tell poeple to " shut up " ,you are getting "p.ssed of" with these posts and advice others not to " F.cking apply " and now you are offended ?

I suggest you tone it down a little:mad:

Jonty

10th Feb 2006, 09:15

This is for all those 200 hour guys who think that they deserve a seat in jet:
The reason most airlines wont touch you with a barge pole is because you are a huge financial risk to them and if you do get through Sim and line training, you are bloody dangerous until you have about 12 months on the aircraft.
As an airline we take all our low houred guys form CTC, They go through a comprehensive set of selection tests and should be able to complete the Sim training with out much trouble. Wrong the dropout rate is huge given where they come from. The reason FR make you pay is because if you drop out, which about 50% will, they wont have paid for any of your training. And if you get to line training, about another 25% will drop out, again their financial position is secure.
They are not doing it out of the kindness of their harts, they are doing it to protect their position and if they can make some money out of you along the way, all the better.
As for low hour guys in the RHS of a jet, they are bloody dangerous! I know I have been there and got the T-shirt. They are too far behind the aircraft in normal opps, that if an emergency did happen they would be worse than useless! And as for manual flying, forget it!
Take some time to get to know aviation, instructing and air taxi are very rewarding and the experience gained will hold you in good stead for when the **** really hits the fan. The CLP/IR is a license to LEARN you will never have this period in your aviation career again I suggest you use it wisely. I went into the RHS with 200 hours and it was VERY hard work, now with 3500 hours I can see just how bad a pilot I was, and also on what I missed. While the RHS of a jet is the end goal, there are so many other parts to aviation that it would be a waste to spend your formative years trolling to Dalaman and back at 3AM.

glennox

10th Feb 2006, 10:05

hazehoe if you go back through what I've posted on this topic you'll find I did apologise for annoying anyone or causing offence, read the posts before you comment.

Look at post #66 if you don't believe me, here is the quote if you can't be bothered:

I am not trying to annoy anyone with my posts and if I offended anyone I apologise unreservedly.

scroggs

10th Feb 2006, 10:05

My, this is getting a little heated, isn't it?

To those of you shelling out for TRs and preparing to work for little or nothing, remember that what you get paid reflects what you think you are worth. The employer will pay no more than he can get away with. If you think you are worth nothing, then you will accept nothing and the employer will laugh his way to the bank.

A couple of years down the line, you will expect to get paid what you saw SFOs getting paid at your airline when you joined. After all, this is why you joined, right? But the employer now has you by the short and curlies. You are committed; you have loans to repay and you may be bonded as well. When the employer announces that, from 2008, FO's pay is going to be reduced by 20% for all those who joined in 2006 and later, where's your leverage? You just have to bite the bullet and accept it - you can't leave, you're too deeply in it to get out. You can't strike; your employer would sack you (you never joined the union...) and you'd be back at square one - and there are thousands of other wannabes crawling over each other to get your job. A few years further down the line, your employer offers you a command - but you've got to pay for the conversion training, you will have to pay any moving expenses, and the pay now offered is 20% below that of the guys a few years ahead of you. 'Sod that' you think, 'Time to go to Virgin or BA and get out of this particular pig sty'. You apply - and find that the terms you are offered are a great deal different - and a lot worse - from those offered to those who went before you. Why is that? Because the employers already know what you think you are worth - you've already proved it.

If you think this is an unlikely scenario, you're wrong. It's happened exactly like that in many airlines, here and abroad, over and over again. It's sometimes known as a 'B' scale, or a job realignment or whatever, but it comes as a result of large numbers of people accepting lower than previous remuneration for the initial jobs on the scale at times when jobs are scarce and applicants many. As a recent example, look at BA's new pilot contract with its pathetic pension arrangements. Market economics? Yes, but the market is subject to pressures from both employers and employees. You are not helpless victims of the market; your actions influence it.

Of course, if you had trodden the less expensive path of FI, TPs and so on, you'd be a few years older, a lot wiser, and a lot less in debt when you came to look for a jet job - and therefore the airline wouldn't have such a hold over you and you could apply more discretion in your choice of employer. But you'd have to ditch the 'I want it all and I want it now' attitude, and I doubt that many of you would do so until it's too late.

Now, I don't put all the blame on those at the bottom of the pile, though I do ask you to think seriously about the consequences of your actions. they are unlikely to affect me, but they will affect you and your peers. How can we retrieve the situation? Do what Ryanair and others have not done - get the existing pilots to work together in protecting the terms and conditions of all pilots (including new-joiners) in their company. That can only be achieved by strong, united and determined union representation. It's worked in Virgin. It's working now in easyJet. It's failing (but maybe retrievable) in BA. It could work in Ryanair, but it's not. Remember that once you get in.

Scroggs

thebeast

10th Feb 2006, 10:48

I presume then Jonty that with all these ‘bloody dangerous’ low hours FOs on jets that accidents will be happening all the time, Ryanair planes will be falling out the sky….. of course not. And as for your suggestion that 50% will fail the type rating and 25% fail the line check well I find these figures as reliable as the Governments illegal immigration figures!! I would be surprised if the failure rate is higher than 10%.

‘Take some time to get to know aviation, instructing and air taxi are very rewarding and the experience’

Well for a start as a low hours pilot air taxi is out of the question as single pilots ops isn’t a possibility and of course me being ‘bloody dangerous’ it d be certain death!!!
As for instructing unless you have an endless supply of cash it simply isn’t an option to fork out another £5-6000 to be employed in a job that will pay around £10,000 a year tops added to the fact another 500 hours in a 152 has debatable long term career benefits.

Gaining experience on a turboprop I agree would be ideal, but these seem even rarer than jet jobs!

Although the Ryanair option is far from perfect it still offers an excellent opportunity as we can see from the demand which also means they can still pick and choose those who show the best skills in the sim check.

That’s my pennies worth

Gnirren

10th Feb 2006, 11:14

I've applied to Cityjet, "sorry we can't take your application further at this time", Loganair they don't care, no reply at all. BA Cityexpress, same things "sorry blah blah..."
Then I hear on pprune that some 300 hr TT guy gets interviewed with BA for example. I have almost 1500 TT of which over 800 is twin. What did I do exactly, spell first officer incorrectly on the application? Beg your pardon for not being brittish, you better believe I can outperform the low hour guy on the job. Truth be told, a company who'd go for a 300 guy over a 1500 guy over spelling errors to me is nuts.
So in my opinion, these companies have clearly told me what THEY think my worth is, and it's not much apparently.
Then what? Get JAA instructor ratings until I have 3000 TT instead? By then they're going to ask what's wrong with me for not getting a job yet = no interview. Plus the fact that 1500 Vs 3000 should make no difference, if you can't perform at 1500 then you probably can't perform at all.
So you tell me what next? I don't consider myself a low hour guy. Aer Arann require you to fund your rating I believe and I don't see this as being preferable to something like the Ryanair deal.

CamelhAir

10th Feb 2006, 12:39

Very succinctly put Scroggs, that's perhaps the best summing up of the situation I have seen/heard to date.

Gnirren - I'm sorry to hear about your lack of employment, its people like yourself who are getting screwed over by those who pay for their ratings. I wish you good luck.

Thebeast - perhaps you should reserve your judgement on Jonty's comments until you have enough experience to make such a judgement. I agree with what he says - looking back on myself as a new low-time (but not paying for a rating) FO, I knew f**k-all and would have been a serious liability had anything gone badly wrong.

Cipri

10th Feb 2006, 14:11

Now, I don't put all the blame on those at the bottom of the pile, though I do ask you to think seriously about the consequences of your actions. they are unlikely to affect me, but they will affect you and your peers. How can we retrieve the situation? Do what Ryanair and others have not done - get the existing pilots to work together in protecting the terms and conditions of all pilots (including new-joiners) in their company. That can only be achieved by strong, united and determined union representation. It's worked in Virgin. It's working now in easyJet. It's failing (but maybe retrievable) in BA. It could work in Ryanair, but it's not. Remember that once you get in.
Scroggs

indeed the one´s outside have no influence whatsoever in the company hiring policies, there is far to much unemployment to go aroung rejecting the slight job offers around. As I have said before, its the people inside that have the power to change, although its not alway true. This has been done in two Spanish carriers, one of them Air Europa, where with the help of the union, has stablished a well defined set of requirements, and the will to pay for the new hired pilots type rating. In the other hand, Iberia pilots and their union, have been fighting now for years in order to keep their old pilot´s agreement, which has meant that a bunch of pilot´s who where already trained and had their TR paid for by Iberia (I think more than 3 years ago) have not yet been called up to start flying, as a pressure measure by the management. the bad part is that they had signed a contract which bonded them for loads of money so they can´t realy do much about it.
summing up, waht can we do? the one´s outside have no say. And the one´s Inside don´t have an easy way and or are too busy looking after their own problems.
Life is hard, and everything gets harder. Real state has also risen to prices out of reach for most young people, while real state owners grow wealthier and wealthier! housing is twice or Thrice as expensive now, and that is even more unfair than paying for a T/R. Who is to blame? the young people that pay whatever they are asked for? maybe yes, but what is one supposed to do, find a nice bridge and live under it?

not easy problems, wiht no easy solutions. Its easy to criticise, but alway try to get into the other people´s shoes!

Regards

Stjuk

10th Feb 2006, 15:51

I am a 1000TT hour pilot, most is instructing, and I get the same or no replies from the likes of CityJet, Loganair etc... NO.

I have decided to go for FR even though I cant afford, going to the bank again...

What is the big difference between Ryanair and CTC(ex. EasyJet), you pay CTC and then you bond yourself for 20.000£, no pay for six month (think you might get an allowance with some airlines) and once you start getting payed you get more or less the same pay as in Ryanair. Why the huge dismay towards Ryanair and not CTC?

scroggs

10th Feb 2006, 16:44

You need to take a good look at easyJet's Cadet and TRSS schemes; they are a world apart from Ryanair's system.

Scroggs

Stjuk

10th Feb 2006, 18:49

Enlighten me!

I do not know anything about easyJet's Cadet scheme, I chose to use EasyJet as an example of an airline recruiting from CTC, could just as well have been another one. And also let me make it clear that I do not see anything wrong with them, but I dont see the fundamental difference other than the selection process. At the end of the day the applicant is paying a lot of money to get the job, if successful.

scroggs

10th Feb 2006, 20:16

I have a job; I'm not here to sell anyone's schemes. If you are a wannabe and are researching the market, you will be well advised to carefully look at all the schemes on offer. Some are considerably better thought out than others, and do not require any period with neither salary, allowances or living expenses. You may also find that, at the cost of a slightly reduced salary, your loan is repaid to you by some - and not by others.

Research is a wonderful tool.

Scroggs

757manipulator

10th Feb 2006, 20:24

Did you pay for your initial training and your FI course?
Yes paid for my CPL(IR) in a foreign land, got my FI rating paid for by the school I trained at (in return for 12 months instructing)..I was then offered a F/O position on a turbo-prop, did that for 18 months, then got a job on a Lear 60 (again bonded for 12 months), joined a charter airline on the A320..upgraded to the 757/767 2 years ago. In that time Ive also worked a second and even a third job to pay the bills:hmm: .Therefore I am utterly uimpressed when foolish individuals think that a mountain of debt, 200hrs, and an attitude of "I'll do the job for next to nothing, and sod anyone elses' T & C's":yuk:
If my comments offend you Glennox I make no apology, I am verbalising in cleaner language than the vast majority of working crews would think in regards to the type of comments you have made previously.
Scroggs has summed it up rather accurately, ultimately you are cutting your own throats, your blind faith in the dreams you have been sold getting into this profession are no ones fault but your own "caveat emptor"
:)

mightymouse111

11th Feb 2006, 10:37

Its an interesting argument saying that you get paid what you are worth as a new SO/FO.
That is saying that all your previous training is immaterial, and therefore a waste of money, if so thats not a fault of yours but the system!

Lets see I pay £50,000 for my training, £20,000 for my TR, but after that I'm only worth £171 per week!!!

Also with you that aircraft cannot legally take off, therefore how much would it cost Ryanair to ground one of its flights. Multiply that by the number of flights you do a year and you suddenly become invaluable to the airline!

There is a Dispatches Program on Monday night on the horror stories at Ryanair, lets hope that they incude the pilots and the rest of the world gets to see this expoitation.

The joke is not Ryanair, but on the authorities for allowing people to exploited in such a manner!

hazehoe

11th Feb 2006, 13:50

Stjuk, i don't consider you a wannabe,you are out in the system.Students fly solo under your responsebility etc. I came up the "ladder" this way and don't regret it. You have to hang in there and make contacts(yes i know it's difficult),find a job on a small twin and slowly climb "up".

If more poeple would go this "hard" route we would not be in the situation we are in right now.
Flight International is posting for FI positions in Croatia,with active intergration to the airlines after 600 hours and 2 years(maybe LH ,i don't know) to name a example. I reached the same point after 1500 hours of instructing and wonderd where all this was supposed to lead.In the end it worked out,got multi time through instructing, freight and than regional.It's a lot better to fly for a regional with good T&C's and become a TRI/TRE than to put up with the disrespectful(in lack of better words) treatment you get in places like FR. Don't believe for a second that the bad deal you get now will change in 2 years,i believe it has been explained by me and a lot of others where all this is going.My advise is to stick with it , you already took a big hurdle building those first 1000 hours! I don't believe the wannabe statement from Sroggs was for you but more in a general sense.You will find ,if you do your research , that he is trying to keep this whole debate balanced and comes on here to rebuke me and others if we get a little bit to carried away with this issue(FR, self funding etc), so " arrogance " might be a little misplaced.This arrogant B.sterd is probaly over the Atlantic with the blond girls in the back, it's not a fair world is it.

Keep up the hard work,don't fall in the trap of the "shortcut" you might regret it.

Busbar

11th Feb 2006, 14:48

Quote:

"Keep up the hard work,don't fall in the trap of the "shortcut" you might regret it."

What do you mean regret it? Hours on a 737 NG is not something you regret! They are valuable to progress your career. If you are talking about getting into large debt for it, then yes a valid point but if you are going to go down this road, you have to be fully aware of the consequences and make sure you are going to keep up the repayments etc... Don't be stupid enough to borrow money you can't pay back!

And before you all launch back at me, yes I know if SSTR schemes were not around nobody would be in this boat in the first place! Granted.

By the way, it's all very well slagging off the FR scheme, but what about the Astraeus scheme? I am not saying anything against it because I don't know enough to comment, but several of my colleagues had a very bad experience with them. Apparently you even pay for your line training, come on that is a worse deal! Yet nobody says a thing about this? Just an observation! :hmm:

757manipulator

11th Feb 2006, 15:20

Nobody has discussed Astraeus, due to fact this thread subject is about Ryanair. Yes there are probably very valid points to be made, however the thread creep on here relates to comments made, rather than companies offering this kind of service.

Busbar

11th Feb 2006, 20:25

sorry 757manipulator, you are indeed correct again! :rolleyes:

hazehoe

11th Feb 2006, 20:41

Busbar

I thought it was obvious,wait until you see what is on offer in a few years.Is it really so hard to understand that FR and others will shaft you again in the future,they already know you are willing to put up with anything they offer.It has nothing to do with the quality of hours on the 737 , it has been discussed in great lenght that your actions now will affect you and others later on,something i strongly believe.

Progress your career at what cost is the question ? i don't care where the money is coming from,the T&C's now and in the future is the issue here,not just the short term solution of buying a TR with or without a job!

AlexL

11th Feb 2006, 20:43

before everyone gets too carried away with the whole "We hate Ryanair" deal, why don't you just reflect on the fact that they will carry more passengers than BA next year, they carried only a couple of percent less than BA this year, they have probably the most modern fleet of any airline, they are the most profitable of all airlines, they are currently listed with a market cap of 6 billion dollars which is more than BA and would make them a firm FTSE 100 company if they were listed one the LSE and not dublin, and are recruiting more low hours pilots than anyone else in the immediate future.
You may love them, you may hate them but I think we can safely assume that they are here to stay, and have changed the industry for good. We can either accept the new order or step aside and let others join the game. Just ask the good people of Rover, Marconi, Delphi corp and many many other huge companies what happens when you don't move with the times.

From a personal point of view if I were to have 20 job offers on my desk, then this is an argument worth having, however If I only had Ryanair on my desk, then this whole point is moot isn't it.
Thinking that the world will change if only everyone stopped paying for type ratings is abit like saying "if we all stopped paying our council tax, then perhaps it wouldn't go up by 20% a year". Its a perfectly accuracte point, but it ain't going to happen people.

757manipulator

11th Feb 2006, 20:58

glennox

12th Feb 2006, 14:57

Yes paid for my CPL(IR) in a foreign land, got my FI rating paid for by the school I trained at (in return for 12 months instructing)..I was then offered a F/O position on a turbo-prop, did that for 18 months, then got a job on a Lear 60 (again bonded for 12 months), joined a charter airline on the A320..upgraded to the 757/767 2 years ago. In that time Ive also worked a second and even a third job to pay the bills .Therefore I am utterly uimpressed when foolish individuals think that a mountain of debt, 200hrs, and an attitude of "I'll do the job for next to nothing, and sod anyone elses' T & C's"

757manipulator, if you don't want to apologise fine and congrats on your flying success, i do sincerely mean that, but you paid for your initial training and lived on no salary for about 15months or so!!!! isn't it ironic for you to have a go at people willing to pay for there own type rating with FR or anyone else for that matter. :hmm:

Jonty you posted the following a couple of days ago

As for low hour guys in the RHS of a jet, they are bloody dangerous! I know I have been there and got the T-shirt. They are too far behind the aircraft in normal opps, that if an emergency did happen they would be worse than useless! And as for manual flying, forget it!

Are you suggesting that every BA, Aer Lingus, Air France and every other airline that recruited cadet pilots over the years is bloody dangerous, way behind the aircraft etc etc... Thats just rubbish. Airlines that sponsor trainee pilots have an extensive recruitment policy and weed out anyone who isn't up to flying for them. :hmm:

757manipulator

12th Feb 2006, 15:26

757manipulator, if you don't want to apologise fine and congrats on your flying success, i do sincerely mean that, but you paid for your initial training and lived on no salary for about 15months or so!!!! isn't it ironic for you to have a go at people willing to pay for there own type rating with FR or anyone else for that matter
WRONG.....Glennox, go back and read what I typed, and dont put your own spin on what Ive said:hmm:
I said I worked a second and third job to pay the bills....I didnt say I worked these jobs because I wasnt being paid a fare rate for my endeavours:hmm:
The FACT is I worked these other jobs as my first positions in aviation were not full time, they were however paid at a fair level when I did work. Glennox if you looked beyond the end of your own nose you would have understood that.
As for paying for my CPL/IR, I look on this as my license to learn, a type rating however is another matter entirely, as it allows one to operate revenue generating flights, therefore you are entitled to be paid for this.
Finally, yes correct no apology, your comments were ignorant, irresponsible, and in my opinion truely awful.

mightymouse111

12th Feb 2006, 20:03

If Ryanair were the only offer on the table. I would not take it, unless I had £30,000 in the bank that could not be spent elsewhere!
I think its very easy to follow your dream and let common sense fly out the window. People are exploting you for your dream!
Personally I would not want to get myself into that sort of debt, i fly because i love it and it improves my quality of life. But what sort of quality of life will have have when I cannot afford to feed myself, put a roof over my head or petrol in my car.

dartagnan

12th Feb 2006, 21:27

I am a ryanair pilot, and I suggest you to stay away from them.
I had to wait 12 months before to touch an airplane, they took all my money.I have been threated by their manager tha if I leave they would sue me,...
now I am flying, I wake up at 4 am everyday, we work 13-15h non stop, 7-8 hours fly a day, week end included, no holyday.

It s creazy, we are very tired, and we have to go back flying.
I pay for my B&B, uniform, food, for everything. after 6 months, they didnt pay me yet...

they treat us like ****, even less than a piece of ****, we have to pay even our own pencil, their stupid dispatch room has no office ustencil....

this company is an insult!should I say more?

Olek6

12th Feb 2006, 23:33

I agree with both sides of this discussion, but my only comment is: THIS IS A HIGHLY ENTERTAINING THREAD, seeing all these people getting worked up about NOTHING, and people commenting about things they know F#¤%CK all about!!!! Sorry my FRENCH, but there you go!!!!!

PS. Might have had one too many drinks!

Okay, now i'm, stitting here.....shall I post this or not....hhmmmm....ohhh well, go on then! Have a laugh, cause obvoulsily noone else has!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stjuk

13th Feb 2006, 20:38

Dartagnan, please check you PM.

757manipulator

13th Feb 2006, 21:05

Well now having seen the Channel 4 show....do you really want to work for a comapny with these work practises? Let alone pay for your type rating. Sums up what a couple of captain friends of mine tell me on a regular basis:rolleyes:

KILO-04

13th Feb 2006, 21:09

Dartagnan,
I was wondering how much has it cost you to carry out all the training for FR (including any hidden costs)?
Thanks
K4

Fancy Navigator

13th Feb 2006, 22:41

After tonight's show on C4, you still want to work for them?
A company where pilots are afraid to speak up or take safe decisions just in case they might get sacked?
WAKE UP !!!!!!
FNav :{

euroflyer

13th Feb 2006, 23:10

I think most of these postings answer the question about a RHS with Ryanair, stay away from them especially ab-initios!!!!
Good luck to those looking for a job!

navdisplay

14th Feb 2006, 14:04

Hy all

Is there any pilot happy to work for Ryanair???? :)

It is impossible that no one of the nearly 800 pilots currently working for Ryan is happy........

All of you are saying bad things about Ryanair (true or not i don't know)..........but the truth is that none of you is working for them.........so.......how can you prove those things???

I have friends (based in italy) working for them saying that is a good place to work and also the training is good.....

I really don't know............. :ugh:

Carmoisine

14th Feb 2006, 14:31

I think the most frustrating thing about working for them is that things could be so much better, so easily. The aggression from office staff, the nasty corporate culture, the greed etc are all so unecessary. I don't think you get the best out of people by treating them like that.

Having said that, once the doors are closed and all the hassle stops, its not the worst job in the world, in fact if all the other hassles stopped it would be a great job.

I would suggest you read here though if your thinking of joining: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=208754

Busbar

14th Feb 2006, 16:10

carmoisine has summed it up well. The job is fine and I'm happy with it.

Porco Rosso 76

14th Feb 2006, 23:15

my 2 cents:

i'm a 250 hours. I'm applying to become a FI.
I have no money to spend in a type rating.
But i say to myself: life is hard and a TRUE career is builded in TIME.
Bring on your career STEP by STEP, little steps, enjoy and learn between this steps with another philosophy. ALL and NOW philosophy is not good. If anyone like Ryanair make you think that is possible to build a career buyin it and not building it, let your brain work: THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH IT.
I have some school collegue that have paid their type rating and now are in airlines. I don't disagree with them: if they have the money to do it... why not to do it?
But don't crash your personal life building a debt that destroy your personal quality of life for many years.

If you like to fly, enjoy flying everything: a little SEP with a student on your side, a little MEP with two costumers that can give you some hint on financial businnes or a piper to look for fire in the woods.
THIS IS FLYING.

If you destroy your life with debts and problems just to put on an uniform or to satisfy your self consideration telling friends that you pilot a boeing, i believe you don't like "Flying"... you like something else.

My grandpa says: Wisdom is to put a shoes in front of the other having time to look out to the landscape.

Excuse me for my bad english and remember that all life choices are personal.
This message is not a judgement, is only my little point of view.

Porco Rosso, Tuscany, Italy

Say again s l o w l y

14th Feb 2006, 23:31

Very wise words from the red pig!

Stratman

15th Feb 2006, 08:45

If you had ever met some of the persons that run these airlines you would quickly see that the sstr trend has got nothing whatsoever to do with market forces, as is often believed, but quite a lot to do with the ability to make maximum profit possible, basically its only greed, and make no mistake about this, some of these people are animals to work for. They change the terms and conditions for new entrants becuse they can, not because they have to, they also attempt to push existing pilots to the limit, but can`t get away with quite as much, yet. Once the mindset of ` This is my dream job` , and I will do anything to get it` changes then the sstr would have to go with it.
Normally though by the time that happens, after continual early/late starts, finishes, anti social life style, broken relationships, and stress caused by anything from malfunctions to near misses { yes they do breakdown, they are only machines] and people discover that being a pilot is only just another job, better than some, worse than others, . Of course in the real world it won`t happen as we all bought into the dream { literally] and no doubt we will continue to do so.
Good Luck.

UltraSonic

15th Feb 2006, 10:12

I have been reading this thread from the beginning and i think it's time i gave my input to this "Ryanair Saga".

First a little about myself:
I live in Belgium, started flight school when i was 18, ab-initio.
I did my flight school with Ben Air Flight Academy (http://www.bafa.be - dutch) in evening school. Worked in the day hours to pay my school and went to school in the evening. Aside from that i had some help from my parents with payments like car, etc....
I finished school when i was 22.

Now here is my input:
It seems to me that most of you guys and galls have a "HERE AND NOW" expectation when you finish flight school, well, FORGET THAT.
Take it easy, don't go directly for that big jet, you WON'T get it, and if you do, your screwed. It's as simple as that.
Why not do like i do, contact a small local airport, ask for prices to rent an aircraft and place some advertising, whatever, take people on small trips, foto shoots, pick up and returns, package delivery, etc.... there is ENOUGH outthere if you let that grey mass inside your head work.
Do your time building, it won't cost you one penny.

I can see what the problem is here, your not flying those big birds.
Well, get over it. Why did you start flgith school in the first place? TO FLY. Not to tell your friends, parents, girlfriend your driving the bigest planes around the globe. I have a general love for "flying", not "flying big birds". I know, other people in our hard world of aviation, most people even, will laugh at you. So what? Your flying, they aren't, your building time, they aren't.

When you have enough time building and enough ME hours go write to some airlines, don't take the biggest outthere, start with the small ones and you'll see things are very different when you got something to show.

That's about the best of advice i can give you and it's worked for me. Right now i'm at the right seat of an MD-11, it took me 8 years but i'm there and you know what? I didn't put myself into debt and didn't destroy my personal life so boys and galls, there are ways, just keep holding on to that dream, don't let go and give it time.

Regards,
Ultra.
Belgium.

dartagnan

15th Feb 2006, 13:05

I personaly think you have to look at the quality of the airline.
flying a big jet and having an ass as a manager is the worse thing you can get in your life.

flying a smaller plane in a good company makes you happy.
I would refer to be paid to fly a turboprop than not to be paid and flying a Boeing.
So stay away from these companies like ryanair, who tell you you will get your hours...
my dream, is to get out of the plane, run to the bank to cash my salary cheque! and buy my things I want for christmas and have a car, and enough money to go out with a girlfriend. can you do that at ryanair, no!

do I have a life at ryanair? NO....what is the point to have jet hours and never be paid???

UltraSonic

15th Feb 2006, 14:22

my dream, is to get out of the plane, run to the bank to cash my salary cheque!

To be hounest, i don't think you have ever spend one hour in a flightdeck but that's just my two cents.

Busbar

15th Feb 2006, 18:37

buy my things I want for christmas and have a car, and enough money to go out with a girlfriend. can you do that at ryanair, no!

do I have a life at ryanair? NO....what is the point to have jet hours and never be paid???

Look, I don't mean to be funny here but I don't understand about this never being paid issue? I have never had this problem and they always pay me well! I just bought a new car on Saturday, and enough money to take my girlfriend out all the time! In fact I live very well from the money they pay. How long have you been with the company? I assume you are on half sector pay, which will be increased after your six month period. Once through the initial phase, things will be much better and worth it! Be patient! And if you still don't like it, easyjet are always recruiting.....

sawotanao

15th Feb 2006, 22:19

Hi Busbar, Can you check your PM's please?
Cheers Saw':ok:

freeflyer28

16th Feb 2006, 20:58

Hi Guys and Girls,
Im trying to get into the RHS with RYR but with the 100h on the 737.
Has someone done it this way?Is it true you get full pay from day one?Is the sim check the same?

Thanks for your reply's ;)

Professor Fog

6th May 2006, 23:29

Has anybody been to the recent ryanair recruitment days ?? I had the email address for the recuitment folk but can't rememnber it - was it something like [email protected] ??

cheers:ugh:

jumbo-clingfilm

6th May 2006, 23:33

yeh almost right......

its actually [email protected]

they usually get back to you within a few days and interview following week.

best of luck and email me if you need any advice.

jumbo

BIGBAD

6th May 2006, 23:39

yup thats the one I got to, emailed them this morning and even got a reply within the hour - must be desperate ! :ok:

I hear they are really short of crews at the moment - everybody is flying the 900 hrs pa, they are now getting trainers flying, so they dont have enough time to train newbees . Sounds like a vicious circle , eh ??

If they're getting new aircraft every month, the gap between crews needed and actual must be widening......

Jinkster

7th May 2006, 11:31

Is this still pay for your type rating scheme?

Mr Wonka

7th May 2006, 12:47

jumbo-clingfilm, have ryanair finished with on line applications ? had a look at the web site and its still charging £50, so is this e mail address used for direct entry captains to help fast track them into the company ?

Mr W

winch launch

7th May 2006, 14:13

I don' t understand, i thought it takes about 1 year from day of application to the sim check.
Are you guys talking about the abinition CAE/SAS scheme or about the one for rated pilots?

Thanks

Winch

INSIDEVIEW

9th May 2006, 18:09

yeah guys ..please confirm what u talk about ..RE or cadets ..

fast & fat

10th May 2006, 13:13

I have a sim check and interview coming up shortly,

I am after any infomation with regards to the whole day ie sim profile and the interview (I believe its split into two parts, technical and personnel)

Any infomation you could offer would be much appreciated.

Thanks for your help

fast & fat:ok:

thunderbird-1

10th May 2006, 16:18

they usually get back to you within a few days and interview following week.

This is true even for the "lowtimer cadet" ??? :confused:

INSIDEVIEW

10th May 2006, 16:48

hey guys ..to apply as low time cadet you need to apply via CAE or SAS ..right?

how long does it take till they actually come back to you ,since im in dubln for MCC end of may ?

thanks guys

T668BFJ

10th May 2006, 17:46

I am assuming your in Dublin for the MCC with Parc ?

IF so, if you perform well and you meet the Ryanair requirements ( age ) then they very frequently are able to recommend you aswell as CAE and SAS.

INSIDEVIEW

10th May 2006, 18:01

Finally something positive ..so i guess u talk about the Sim performance ...
do you have any experience with it ?

T668BFJ

10th May 2006, 19:19

Its more your general Instrument flying, ability to handle the 737-200 during your MCC.
A laage aditional part is how well you pick up the MCC aspects and deal with them.
The instructors on the MCC study and evaluate your performance. If the result is sefficiently high then they will quite likely recommend you.

For the SIM Assesment at Ryanair I understand they are looking for general flying ability.
But more important, Flight management, CRM, Spacial Awareness. Obviously you cant make stupid, basic IR flying errors.

Hope that helps
Feel free to PM me for more info

INSIDEVIEW

10th May 2006, 21:12

ok i will collect my questions....
after the recommentations ..what they do next at ryanair ...

INSIDEVIEW

10th May 2006, 21:17

watch the german writing English ...i ment recomendations..

INSIDEVIEW

10th May 2006, 21:20

ok ok ..now i got it ..lol...
recommendations

BIGBAD

10th May 2006, 22:23

INSIDEVIEW - do you like the sound of it ?????

I wouldn't hold your breath for Parc to recommend you after an MCC - they like everybody else are after your cash......:ooh: :uhoh: :ugh: :yuk:

T668BFJ

11th May 2006, 08:02

ok let me see, try and collect your facts and get them right !!!!!!!!!!
Rumour network or not, some people really can be very unhelpful.

Parc as do all the recommended schools, recommend everyone who is suitable and within the age limits.

Becker Junior

11th May 2006, 08:49

I have a friend who made the sim and interview last week. The personal and technical interviews were mixed in one talking more about the reason for flying at Ryan, moving to Uk etc... Something about Jepp. Nothing 737 tech. The sim was ok with a AP/FD/AT off, QDM, QDR and Radials changes, eng fire, one eng land cross wind. They changed the wind direction 2 or 3 times.

INSIDEVIEW

11th May 2006, 10:58

yeah i know , but hey its getting better ...

let us all help out each other ...be a team ,accept and be happy if another ROOKIE gets a job ,its one less on the List .

Fighting against each other doesnt help ...
so one more time '
TEAM UP GUYS

siduk

11th May 2006, 19:46

Hi Readers

Anyone can confirm the email for ryanair please to drop a CV.

I used the [email protected] but didn't work then tried [email protected]

I have been told to use the email address you dont have to fill in online application some people went to the road show and filled the form now been invited for sim cx ride.

Cheers for your help:ok:

Siduk

WX Man

11th May 2006, 21:11

So what the hell is the point in the CAE and SAS?

I've filled in both of them and haven't even got an acknowledgement email ("thank you for your application that has further added to the junk in our inbox. We will be deleting your application very shortly and if you do not hear anything in the next 3 months, you can assume you have been unsuccesful in your pitifully pathetic application attempt. Muppet.")

winch launch

12th May 2006, 21:15

So Can anyone clarify if those emails are also good for low timers no TR guys

Thanks

nuclear weapon

13th May 2006, 04:39

I hope to finish off my ir in the next six weeks and was wondering if it is true that ryanair is now bonding pilots as they cant get enough people to pay for thier type ratings. Several of my friends who finished from my school are currently working with easyjet so there might be an element of truth in it as people seem to be avoiding them and it might encourage them to treat thier new pilots better.

airpilot

13th May 2006, 06:59

I've heard they are only bonding pilots who have JAR25 experience ie turbo prop f/o's and captains etc. For those without JAR25 experience then you have to apply through one of Ryanair's approved organisations and then fill out the application and then hand tons of cash.

Wish more people would be firm and stand their ground and not go down the SSTR route.

Glad I didn't go down the Emerald route.

TolTol

13th May 2006, 11:02

You'll still end up paying for your type rating as your salary will be reduced. I think I'd rather pay than be bonded.

nuclear weapon

13th May 2006, 13:38

You'll still end up paying for your type rating as your salary will be reduced. I think I'd rather pay than be bonded.

Does that mean ryanair will pay for it but the money will be gradually taken out of your salary over that period i.e say 4/5 years. Pls answer in simple yes or no.

TolTol

13th May 2006, 14:02

So I have been told. Maybe somebody else can clarify.

degothia

13th May 2006, 14:43

With a risk of looking like comlete idiot I must ask: what exactly is bonding?
I thougt that it was a contract that said that the company pays for TR but if the pilot leaves the company before the contract ends he have to pay the remaining part. The pilot pays nothing unles he brakes the contract.
Am I wrong, or is there somethig else to this?
D.

Özcan

13th May 2006, 15:33

degothia

13th May 2006, 17:39

Maybe Im not stupid after all. Tack Özcan.
D.

captwannabe

13th May 2006, 19:55

Anyone know whether they will bond low-hour cadets in the future? It would be much better to be bonded than have to pay simply because you wouldn't be €30k+ out of pocket straight away, and you would be almost guaranteed a job if they were paying for your TR.

j123s

14th May 2006, 09:10

They are only bonding pilots who have 1500 jar 25 and 500 hours jet. It is a 25 grand bond which reduces by 5 grand per year. As far as i know your salary is not reduced.
So if you only want to do 1000 hours on the 737 and then :mad: off to another company it is much cheaper to pay for TR yourself.:E

Pilot Pete

14th May 2006, 10:27

Bonding used to be a contract that said if you leave the company within a pre-set time you would have to pay for the typerating otherwise you wouldn't have to, but these days it seems like bonding means having to pay for the typerating and be bound to the company at the same time :confused:

Anybody who pays for a type rating and is bonded TOO needs their head examining. It could possibly be illegal as it is an unfair restriction being placed unpon you. Bonding is fine as it offers some security to the type rating provider (the one that pays) against you leaving after many thousands of pounds worth of their investment. Trouble is, even if this is proved to be what is happening, the reduced starting salary will just become the 'norm' salary, defined as having no deductions taken from it to pay for the type rating..... JUST DON'T DO IT!

They are only bonding pilots who have 1500 jar 25 and 500 hours jet. It is a 25 grand bond which reduces by 5 grand per year. As far as i know your salary is not reduced. £25k over 5 years seems excessive too. They will have made their investment back plus a huge amount in that time of productive work. I think that figure is unreasonable personally and the timescale unreasonable too. There are better options out there.

PP

INSIDEVIEW

14th May 2006, 10:55

TELL US >>>>>WHERE !!!!

Pilot Pete

14th May 2006, 11:34

My company for one. New joiners with no type rating have to pay back £10k over five years through a reduced starting salary (£2k a year less than normal). For this they get a type rating on either 737 or 75/767. If you choose to leave within the five years you just pay the loan off yourself.

Captains starting salary £63.5k with about £1100 per annum payscale rise up to scale 15.

F/O starting salary is £40k, with a payscale rise of about £1200 per annum. Captains £17 and F/Os £11 per sector. Nearly £3 per hour duty pay. Captains £525 per day and F/Os £360 per day if you sell back a day off.

S/O terms proportionally lower for less than ATPL in hand.

Accidental Death Insurance is about £230k for captains and £130k for F/Os. Loss of Licence £85k for captains, £55k F/Os. £19k a year for TRI/E.

New pension is money purchase (don't know the details as not in it). Uniforms, car parking passes, food and drinks onboard, medicals, sims and all hotac paid for by the company. Positioning by reputable airlines only or Hallmark cars. They also paid a £600 repair bill for my car when it was damaged in a car park at work.

Flying hours about 6-700 per year with 42 days annual leave (max 2 weeks summer, the rest non-summer season). Seniority list for basing/ bids, but not for leave which is done on a points system so everyone gets a fair crack. Mix of shorthaul low cost and charter and longhaul when senior enough.

They are recruiting both S/Os, F/Os and have been employing direct entry captains in the last two years, however many F/Os are looking for upgrades and this practice is on hold at the moment.

PP

INSIDEVIEW

14th May 2006, 12:27

all i need now is the Name ...and i sent my application ..please

Pilot Pete

14th May 2006, 12:44

I would have thought if you wanted a job that much you would research the market and find out the potential employers that would consider you. Having to ask the name of my airline shows a lack of determination to get a job. If you don't seek out the perceived 'better' packages on the market and just think that Ryanair are the norm then you are failing yourself.

I will allow you to research the market and find out for yourself which UK airline I work for, it won't be difficult and they have a track record of employing EU nationals.....

PP

INSIDEVIEW

14th May 2006, 12:54

Well i guess i will do this then,anyways thank you ,Sir .

INSIDEVIEW

14th May 2006, 12:57

GOT IT ...YES IT WAS EASY ,now the hard part ,isnt your Airline actually hiring experienced Pilots ,not Low timers like me ?

jamestkirk

14th May 2006, 16:19

[QUOTE=Pilot Pete]
Having to ask the name of my airline shows a lack of determination to get a job.

Pilot Pete.

To say that the chap is not determined enough to find a job because he does not have an in depth knowledge of EVERY airline's T & C's, so has to ask a simple question is insulting to him and others like him (including me).

It may have escaped your notice, but this part of pprune is about trying to find a job. There are many of us that would be overjoyed to just get a RHS on anything. And i am sure that if we got that chance, we probably not debate with the employer about the nature of the pension etc.

Maybe it's you that should do a bit more research on the demographics of 'wannabe's' and what they do to try a get a job that puts them on the first rung of the ladder.

JTK

INSIDEVIEW

14th May 2006, 17:06

ONLY...Together were strong ...we are pilots ..one flies everyday an ILS one will fly it in the future ..but WE need to hold together.

TEAM UP GUYS !!!

Benix

14th May 2006, 22:43

JTK - think thats a bit harsh on old Pete mate. There are far too many people in the world who do want things given to them on a plate and can't be bothered to find things out for themselves. I know ive spent hours and hours like most wannabees on here researching potential employers and contacts, if you want people to do all the work for you then no your not very committed imho. Regarding accepting poor T&Cs for a 1st job well of course you have a totally valid point; most of us would do anything to get a RHS job and the likes of RYR definitely make the most of that. However Pete also has a valid point, slowly the T&Cs will get worse and worse untill you end up doing it totally for free (after paying for type and line training) for the 1st year or longer :yuk:
As far as asking Pete to do some more research on wannabes, well I think he knows exactly about what our situation is, hence the excellent services that he runs in his spare time! Keep it up Pete :ok:

Pilot Pete

15th May 2006, 00:50

GOT IT ...YES IT WAS EASY ,now the hard part ,isnt your Airline actually hiring experienced Pilots ,not Low timers like me ? There you go. Easy eh? Now find out if they employ low timers. That will be easy too. Oh, ok, I'll tell you. Yes they do. I went to work last night and bumped into a CRM instructor pal who was running a course full of new joiners. Their experience level ranged from 150hrs to 200hrs. Even I baulked at 150hrs!!!

My point was not to offend, just to point out that if somebody has to ask about what airline will employ them then they are NOT doing enough to get themselves a job. When I had 250hrs I knew EXACTLY which airlines employed pilots with my experience level and by the time I had my IR the CVs and applications were in the post. Just remember, if you don't give the job search 100%, sure as eggs are eggs someone else will and they will get one of the few jobs going for low houred pilots.

Good luck.

PP

510orbust

15th May 2006, 07:51

Taken from a Canadian forum with ALPA battling for bonds to be prohibited.

Young inexperienced pilots should read this to have a clear understanding of what a bond is and what it entails.

I am seeing the UK going down the same road that Canada did, all these low houred pilots paying to work for an airline (not a bond) and in ten years time starting salaries going down and terms and conditions going down.

I myself have entered into a bond, but one that was fair, and that had my interests and the employer interests at heart. I was approached by a certain company that wanted me to pay to work for them, if you all did as I did and laugh at them, then proper legitimate bonds would be in place.

http://www.fls-ntf.gc.ca/doc/sub_fb_61.pdf

Pilot Pete

15th May 2006, 14:40

I am seeing the UK going down the same road that Canada did, all these low houred pilots paying to work for an airline (not a bond) and in ten years time starting salaries going down and terms and conditions going down.
I myself have entered into a bond, but one that was fair, and that had my interests and the employer interests at heart. That is a very interesting document you have posted and highlights my earlier opinion about how I think £25k over 5 years is unreasonable. A very interesting observation is the fact that many of these 'bonds' are now loans that the individual signs up for. If the company goes bust you end up with no job and have to pay the loan back. This really is unfair practice and I think all you job seekers should write to BALPA if you are members to express your concerns and your local MP, highlighting the facts and showing them the document from Canada.

PP

j123s

15th May 2006, 18:00

An example - A devon based, dash operator make new joiners sign a bank loan for £20'000 (plus interest) over a 4 year term. The loan apparently is in your name however the company make the repayments whilst you are employed. So if you get fired or company goes bust you are 100% liable. Sounds pretty bad eh!
Get this-the loan is effectively frozen for year 1 and so no repayments are made until the beginning of year 2!?!

All for a :mad: Dash 8 rating.:eek:

Northern Highflyer

16th May 2006, 12:50

There you go. Easy eh? Now find out if they employ low timers. That will be easy too. Oh, ok, I'll tell you. Yes they do. I went to work last night and bumped into a CRM instructor pal who was running a course full of new joiners. Their experience level ranged from 150hrs to 200hrs. Even I baulked at 150hrs!!!

Now if only they would ease up on the age restriction for S/O's :ok:

I have got the opportunity of an assessment / sim check with FR, but if successful, have to pay £18k for the type rating, followed by a period of several months without pay. Although it would be my first flying job opportunity since qualifying I have sadly had to decline the offer. :ugh:

jamestkirk

16th May 2006, 13:10

Ok, maybe I did sound a bit acidic.

Cannot remember which day i posted it. A student (i am an FI) could have tried to kill me that day or my pants may have just been too tight. Or a combination of the both in any order.

My aim was not to offend anyone.

JTK

Pilot Pete

16th May 2006, 18:42

Now if only they would ease up on the age restriction for S/O's :ok:

I heard they had, but that's not verified.

PP

TolTol

16th May 2006, 20:12

I still can't figure out who pilot pete works for:O

TruTh747

16th May 2006, 20:23

He works for Thomsonfly...:ok:

TolTol

16th May 2006, 21:06

Well I ruled out that airline as one where he works because their website states:

"First Officers wishing to apply must have 1500 hours total time to include either 500 hours jet experience or 1000 turbo hours. 737/757 Type Rated First Officers may apply with a minimum of 300 hours line experience."

Maybe they should update their website, or maybe I need glasses:8

Anyways, thanks for that TruTh747:ok:

Pilot Pete

16th May 2006, 21:20

Maybe they should update their website Or maybe they are too busy like most airlines and what it says on the website is not necessarily gospel!;)

I always recommend people research airlines fully and don't just rely on what a website says. Many airlines put their 'wish list' down as requirements, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they won't recruit pilots with less experience.

For your information Thomsonfly, nee Britannia have a long history of recruiting 200hr pilots to Second Officer positions.

Good luck.

PP

TolTol

16th May 2006, 22:16

Thanks for the info Pilot Pete;)

TruTh747

17th May 2006, 11:36

For your information Thomsonfly, nee Britannia have a long history of recruiting 200hr pilots to Second Officer positions

Agreed, i am personally waiting for the Thomsonfly scheme at JEREZ..hope to fly with you soon PP.

Kind Regards,

Truth747

IronWalt

17th May 2006, 23:23

Insideview,

You have a good attitude my friend. I would fly with you anytime. :-)

Cheers,
Walt

T668BFJ

18th May 2006, 08:23

CAE and SAS are where you do the TQ Course. They also have access to possibly submit you for Sim Assessment, but aer by no means the only way of doing so. As with everything research and use every possible avenue, not just the ones that are easy to find and laid out on a plate for you.

and its [email protected]
ema = East Midlands IATA code

peeprune

26th May 2006, 08:23

Anyone else in the same situation?

I know that on their website it says "must be able to live and work in the EU".

I have permanent residency for the UK only to live and work unresricted.

Is there anyone else with this same situation? (maybe even heard of someone actually employed with UK only residency)

Does anyone have any opinions on whether this forfeits my chance of employment?

Thanks

Aerofoil

26th May 2006, 10:56

Hi all,

Just wondered if i could ask some people in the know about Ryanair a few questions?

Firstly if i joined Ryanair with a 737 rating and 100 hours on type would i be on the cadet salary still or would i enter straight away onto the full F/O salary + flight pay?

Secondly I am aware that unless you have the NG differences on your license that they bond you over 5 years....How much is this bond in £ sterling?

Lastly once line trained...which i will be already with 100 hrs on type, what are the chances of getting the base you want at the moment? Is it still a case that you will have to go into Europe for 6 months or is that just so you could do your line training? (east mids in particular)

No Ryanair bashing please i'm just after straight forward answers to the above.

Many thanks in advance

Foil

Olof

26th May 2006, 12:58

Maybe you should try under terms and endearment...

Anyway, I wouldn't count on getting your first choice when it comes to your home base. Althougn you're not a cadet I don't see why Ryan wouldn't place you where the need is greatest (i.e anywhere in Europe).

-8AS

26th May 2006, 17:23

Join as Second Officer with full flight pay.

Any previous line training done at other companies means nothing. You will undergo full training but will be expected to be at line check standard by around 28 sectors as you will be trained under 'Operator Conversion Course'. (Minimum sectors a cadet will complete before line check is 68).

Most new joiners are now getting choice of base but there can be restrictions due to the requirements of the company. Also some bases are relatively small and sort after e.g GRO so seniority comes into efffect then.

Hope this helps.

european champion

26th May 2006, 18:13

I havent seen on their website anything mentioned about second officers,what are their minimum requirements for that position?

nicholasblonde

26th May 2006, 19:06

Complex Question: Does anyone know if having accession state citizenship (i.e. Slovenia) would allow me to apply with ryanair's training scheme? My concern is that it says one must have "unrestricted right to live and work in the EU."

Well, I know that the UK has been pretty liberal with granting work permission to even the newest EU members, but some countries (Italy et al), are very restricted in granting work permission to people like me.

So would I be considered "unrestricted" in my ability to live and work in the EU??? I wonder if that is meant to read "Shengen area citizens."

Any assistance much appreciated!

willby

29th May 2006, 17:52

Hi,
Does anyone have precise information on the difference between the Brookfield contract and standard Ryanair contract for FO's?
Rgds

scroggs

30th May 2006, 09:26

Just a reminder, as topics about this airline seem to attract people of various levels of experience: this forum is only for ab-initio wannabes. For experienced pilots, looking for their second or subsequent commercial employment, Terms and Endearments is the appropriate forum.

Scroggs

no sponsor

31st May 2006, 21:39

As far as I am aware, both Ireland and the UK will allow you to work. France, Germany etc will not. Not sure how it works with Irish registered aircraft, but since the initial period of work with Ryanair is classed as training, this will mean you aren't getting paid.

Wizzair in Poland has French & German nationals working under their TR training scheme, and the Poles don't allow the French or Germans the right to work in Poland, so it must be classified as 'training'.

nicholasblonde

5th Jun 2006, 03:58

thanks for the info nosponsor

invisiblemoon

8th Jun 2006, 17:57

Despite what is officially stated on their website, does anybody know if ryanair is considering pilots with a 737 TR but without hours on type and without J25 experience ?

Should i apply or is it a waste of money to do so ?

Thanks

future captain

8th Jun 2006, 18:06

Think you will see they want 100 hours on type.

scottiedogg

8th Jun 2006, 21:06

2 instructors at my flying club have gone for this, they have to self fund the 100hr rating but are 99% guarenteed a job after.

scottie.

An2

9th Jun 2006, 07:44

I had two Cpt's backing my application, but that didn't help.
Still needed to have the magic 100hrs on type!!

thunderbird-1

9th Jun 2006, 11:25

hy, Do you think that there is better chances to be involved with FR with a TR (with no JAR25 experience) than waiting for a cadet recruitment with CAE or SAS ???

For the 100h on type, I guess that's really the minimum you must have if you want your application go on. But it may change... :ugh:

Asd1906

14th Jun 2006, 18:32

This makes some poor reading!
Is there only me who has never applied ro Ryanair or refused refused to pay for my Type Rating?? :{

Nope, absolutely not. I would never pay for flying.....damn the airlines who do that!!!!!

Aerofoil

15th Jun 2006, 20:58

Hi all

I was wondering if someone at Ryanair could post a typical day in the life as a Ryanair pilot. Right from report in the morning to leaving work in the evening and rest period in between days of work?

Also i believe that the roster pattern is 5 on 3 off, Is that split into earlys and lates or 5 earlies 3 off and then 5 lates 3 off?

Please no Ryanair bashing here i'm just after informative posts about a day in the life of a Ryanair pilot.

Many thanks and kind regards

Foil

-8AS

16th Jun 2006, 13:25

Roster is currently 5 days on (earlies) then 3 days off, 5 days on (lates) then 3 days off.......... Never changes, can plan a BBQ for 9 months time for one of your off days! This is slowly changing to 5 days on, 4 days off as new people join. Don't know how stable this will be as it comes with a few provisos. (New joiners are only being offered the 5/4 pattern I think).

As far as the average day goes, usually four sector days. Early starts vary from 05:25 report to 07:30. Lates start around 11:30 with the average start time of 13:30 (can be as late as 17:00). The whole fleet is scheduled back at home base before 23:30. A days duty is on average 71/2 - 8 hrs. Some extend to 11hrs others short as 4 and 1/2 hours.

You report 45 minutes before departure to complete pre-flight duties, spend the rest of the day mainly flying due to only 25 minute turn arounds (no hanging around airports). At the end of the days flying, spend 30 minutes in operations doing paper work then its off home to come back and do it all again tomorrow.

TolTol

23rd Jul 2006, 11:16

Ryanair are one of the most popular airline for recruiting low hour pilots (250+). I know at least 10 guys that have gotten a job with Ryanair after they have obtained their fATPL.

They have stopped recruiting at the moment tough, no training captains.

scroggs

23rd Jul 2006, 12:26

Ryanair - Some Thought-Provoking Info (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=235419)

Enjoy.

Scroggs

planeshipcar

29th Jul 2006, 14:18

I know ryan's in a break till the newe year before they start recruitng again, but is it gernerally quite easy for someone to get a placement with Ryanif they are a good pilot and willing to pay or is it a case of waiting in a long queue and never being acknowledged or waiting in a long queue and then eventually you will get an offer.

I checked out several wbesites and there seems to be a concenses with many that if you pay then your in. Is this right.

In reguards to Easyjet, again, would a pay for the type rating with GECAT be easier than CTC and secondly is it very difficult to get on to a GECAT scheme?

cheers,

Dpilot

29th Jul 2006, 22:38

Can any one tell me when Ryanair will resume interviewing for FO's and cadets, as I was due to have my interview in July, but received ( as did others ) an e-mail from them saying that our interviews are to be postponed to a later date.:ugh:

TWOTBAGS

30th Jul 2006, 11:10

Rumour has it that there are no places for DE FO's until April, after the backlog of cadets ex CAE & SAS are finished.:confused:

TolTol

30th Jul 2006, 11:34

after the backlog of cadets ex CAE & SAS are finished.:confused:

What does that mean?

Marvo

30th Jul 2006, 16:21

What it means is, guys and girls are coming out of SAS/CAE, and going straight online (after base training, naturally) without much delay. Lucky ba****ds! .

A good six months at home before line training did me a world of good!

Rumour has it, and I mean rumour, all the slots for cadets/First Officers are full for courses in 2006. :D

TolTol

30th Jul 2006, 19:34

And just as I finish my training this has to happen, typical.

anutrof82

3rd Aug 2006, 18:11

Hi everybody!!!
Can anyone tell me what the Ryanair assesment day is going to be about? and by this I mean what kind of departure/arrival you fly and what kind of emergency you have to face!
Any info will be very helpful!
Thanks
Julia:) :) :)

anutrof82

3rd Aug 2006, 19:59

Hi everybody!!!!:) :) :)

I'im supposed to go through the Ryan assessment day on september and I need some more info about it, and by that I mean what kind of departure or arrival they usually make you do it, what kind of emergency if any etc etc...

if anyone knows anything about it please let me know!!! even few things will mean much to me!!!
Thanks
Julia;)

TolTol

3rd Aug 2006, 22:00

Just wondering, are you type rated? Because I thought they were not hiring until next January.

Low flying area

4th Aug 2006, 12:18

Hello ,

I am very interested too because I have an assessment in September.
I am not type rated...

anutrof82

4th Aug 2006, 21:52

no unfortunately I don't have a TR.... anyway I have applied as a cadet!!!!
INFO PLEASE........... please!!!!!!!!!!
thanks
Julia

Olof

4th Aug 2006, 22:46

if you use the search function you will find plenty of info on the assesment day... In general: depart on a SID, airwork, eng fire, single eng full proc ILS. Everything flown raw data. They change it every now and then. The best way you can prepare is to get a couple of hours in the 732 sim before the assesment!

TolTol

18th Aug 2006, 14:38

Hi all,

Just wondering what is the waiting time from date of online application to one of the schools, to the date of the sim check?

Thanks.

P.s. I have done a search but I'd like to know some up to date info.

zooloflyer

20th Aug 2006, 11:03

I registered at both schools in mar/april 06 - never had any news since then...

I think that if you really wanna go that direction - start stalking them!

TolTol

20th Aug 2006, 15:19

I dont want to go in that direction but I may have no choice.

buttline

20th Aug 2006, 16:11

I did the sim check for Ryanair about a year ago. It's in a 732.

It was depart Liverpool 27, climb to non-standard 5000' (the SID is 4k). You will have to select climb power at 1500 agl and accelerate and clean up at 3000 agl whilst intercepting the radial in the climb.

I think you depart flap 1 but it could be flap 2, I can't remember. Sorry I can't remember the EPR power setting either.

Then you do steep turns in both directions, then some ADF tracking. Then vectors towards an ILS 27 - he asked me what entry I would use for a hold and, when I answered, he didn't bother to make me fly it. I believe Dublin is also a common sim location as well.

Then I got an engine fire and had to shut the engine down followed by vectors to an SE G/A.

The recall items you will need to know are:-

PF calls for the "Engine Fire and Severe Damage Recall Items"

- Affected thrust lever - close
- Affected engine start lever - close
- Affected engine fire warning switch - pull and rotate for fire - (just pull for damage)

That will be it for the shutdown - you won't have to use the QRH.
All actions should be exectuted by PNF and confirmed by PF - show good CRM and clear English (very multicultural at RYR). If you need something, MCP selections, radios tuning etc - ask the PNF for it - practice giving Jeppessen style briefings - use the top boxes.

All is raw data - no AP / FD or AT except for briefings.

If you've never flown a jet sim before, unless you are a sky god, you will probably need some practice first to pass.

However, only take Ryanair if it's your last option. You will be seriously out of pocket for a further 2 years at least.

CTC ATP Scheme is a much better deal and will place you with better companies.

TolTol

20th Aug 2006, 17:17

Nah its totally different now. Its a departure out of Luton and then a steep turn followed by the NDB approach. There is no engine fire (2 engine approach).

Fancy Navigator

20th Aug 2006, 17:20

I registered at both schools in mar/april 06 - never had any news since then...

I think that if you really wanna go that direction - start stalking them!

Well, same boat here! I would be curious to know how they go about their recruitment. It seems very unclear! You never heard from them, and you do not know what they are looking for.

FNav:ugh:

anutrof82

21st Aug 2006, 08:08

Hey does anyone know what is going on at Cae right now?
They seem a little confused, during the last week they are calling people for the assesment 3 days before the assessment itself. (my friend was called on the 17th for the 21th)
is it the first time they do such a thing?
I've actually been contacted by them at the end of july and they made me choose my assessment between a number of dates in september, not confirmed yet.
should I worry???? :confused:

Low flying area

21st Aug 2006, 12:16

Strange Totol I thought that the Ndb approach was for experienced pilots only (1500hrs or something) who would like to join ryanair.
Ndb appraoch on B737-200, it's quite difficult. I made 2 or 3 during mcc it's something much more difficult than an ils even on 1 engine.
I think i would sweat like hell...:}

papazulu

21st Aug 2006, 12:31

Hello everybody

Just wondering who got in touch with one of them (cae or sas) again after filling the application form. Did you call them on your own initiative or did they do it? After how long? Websites ask not to make make phone enquires, obviously, but I believe it's always worth to do it. Any names?

Wish you good luck, although SSTR is not the way we are supposed to go..

PZ :ok:

EGAC_Ramper

21st Aug 2006, 14:53

Strangely enough today I received invite to Ryanair selection offering dates throughout September and October however looking through the other persons it has been mailed to I recognise a few from people I know from MCC courses at Parc Aviation where I went myself.

Regards:ok:

Dpilot

21st Aug 2006, 20:12

TolTol is right SID out of Luton, Steep turns, NDB tracking, NDB App,and if your going for a Captain's possition an engine failure after take off in a turn on the SID.:eek:

Stjuk

21st Aug 2006, 21:17

EGAC RAMPER...Can I ask you when you did the MCC at PARC, and who you were contacted by, was it by Ryanair directly?

Thanks

EGAC_Ramper

21st Aug 2006, 21:22

Greetings,

I did my MCC in March and was put forward earlier,just at the time couldnt go forward,then today was contacted by Ryanair directly.

Cheers:ok:

papazulu

22nd Aug 2006, 12:46

You are HIGHLY unlikely to ever get an assessment with ryanair (low-hours) unless you have a recommendation from someone internally, usually a training captain.
The exception to this rule is those guys that complerte their MCC at CAE, SAS and additonally it seems from Parc aviation.

My question was about their approved TRTO getting in touch with suitable candidates, not Ryanair itself.

However this is what FR's website states today:

Pilot recruitment update
Our First Officer training courses for 2006 are now fully subscribed. Our next First Officer training courses will commence in April 2007. We are currently inviting applications from 737 type rated First Officers looking to commence training courses from April 2007 onwards.

We have just 25 places left on courses for Captains this year. If you are interested in applying as a Captain please forward your CV to [email protected] Applications are dealt with on a first come, first served basis. Type rating on the 737-800 is a decided advantage.Courses for cadets will commence in January 2007 at Ryanair approved schools. Applications should be made directly to the schools.

Surely there are more chances you are right than the website being fair to everyone but I just need to know if it works just in one way (TRI recs), the other (TRTOs) or both...a friend of mine was hired with loads of SPA/TP hrs but it is hard to say he knew anyone since he didn't live in IRL or UK.

Still looking for news, still thinking this is not the way it should be.Wish you good look.

PZ :ok:

Aerofoil

22nd Aug 2006, 16:49

What sort of age group do Ryanair tend to go for when recruiting pilots?
21-25 yr olds?
25-30?
30+?

Or do they tend to go for a mix of all?

Regards

Foil

BongleBear

22nd Aug 2006, 22:23

Any age. Absolutely any age. I'm training with pilots aged 20-44.

TheSquire

24th Aug 2006, 09:40

Does anybody have a more cheerful experience of Ryanair?

I am in the same position as so many other people having just finished all my training, and am now scouring the industry for those elusive first opportunities.

Ryan sounds like one of the best options out there to be honest, or at least, one of the most accessible starting points to get jet hours, and a rating.

Is it really all doom and gloom with Ryan?

zooloflyer

24th Aug 2006, 10:40

I guess the bad news spreads faster than the good news + there won't be too many happy pilots spending their time on forums writing how good it is...right?:confused:

Fact is that the gate has closed for the moment for low hour - no jet experienced pilots until 2007 so I hope I will never be able to tell.

Charlie Roy

24th Aug 2006, 16:20

Ryanair website: "We will be holding Pilot Recruitment Days in Brussels on the 8th and 9th of September in the Sheraton Hotel, Brussels Zaventem Airport."

Funny that, how they recruit from Zaventem :E

nuclear weapon

24th Aug 2006, 16:48

to all those currently training with ryanair can I ask what is the easiest way to apply. I am about to finish my mcc. Is it through parc or you are better off going through ryanairs website. I know a lot of people currently going through it and they cant wait to finish thier 12 months and bail out. So this endless cycle is going to go on for a while.

aaspangenberg

29th Aug 2006, 14:16

Does anybody know good options to prepare yourself for the sim assessment?
As a cadet pilot I have never flown a 737 before. I was thinking of contacting CAE but I also heard people who did prepare themselves at East Midlands.

RYR-738-JOCKEY

29th Aug 2006, 14:49

aaspangenberg: Talk to CAE since it's almost next door for you. Pay for a session, but you will need a partner. Secondly, get the CBT but most importanly the PMDG 737NG version for Microsoft FS...That should get you started.
zooloflyer wrote: "Fact is that the gate has closed for the moment for low hour - no jet experienced pilots until 2007 so I hope I will never be able to tell." That's incorrect, I know newly hired guys (a week ago) with nothing but 200'.
TheSquire wrote: "Is it really all doom and gloom with Ryan?"
How about 5 on, 5 off. 7000 Euros per month (tax free if you have the balls), and fly brand new aircraft. That's the upside of things...anyway for the rest read the: Ryanair - A Guide for Prospective Pilot Employees

potkettleblack

29th Aug 2006, 14:58

RYR-738-JOCKEY - Do you know if cadets are able to get a Dublin base by going on the Brookfield contract? I heard that in times gone by there were promises of a Dublin base after time served at one of the outposts but these were very rarely ever fulfilled and there were a number of people hanging onto pipe dreams.

RYR-738-JOCKEY

29th Aug 2006, 15:20

All I know is that nearly ALL of the BRK cadets are being sent to DUB now, so if you're in the system, DUB is absolutely achievable...
Forgot to mention...: They don't want any "permanents" up there, only contractors, and that's maybe why people hear it's difficult to get DUB-base.

papazulu

29th Aug 2006, 20:42

That's incorrect, I know newly hired guys (a week ago) with nothing but 200'.
TheSquire wrote: "Is it really all doom and gloom with Ryan?"
How about 5 on, 5 off. 7000 Euros per month (tax free if you have the balls), and fly brand new aircraft. That's the upside of things...anyway for the rest read the: Ryanair - A Guide for Prospective Pilot Employees

Can anyone tell how long between filling the form with CAE and the call from the TRTO?

RYR...How long before those figures become reality? And how much do you REALLY need to fork out? Not trying to take the p...s out of you but the new joiners seem pretty disappointed with FR and some seniors agree...

PZ :ok:

BongleBear

29th Aug 2006, 21:02

the new guys aren't disappointed, a few might be and they're the only ones who post. you've got to remember that pprune is an internet forum, and like all other internet forum people generally only post when they're pissed off with something. it's like the old business idea- if someone's happy with an experience they're likely to tell 1 person, id they had a bad experience they're likely to tell 5. the total cost is around 19000GBP and on top of that there's accommodation and travel expenses. the pay starts off relatively poor. you can expect to earn a total of 18-19000GBP for the first year, and that starts from the base check (so no pay during the training). ryanair are now offering bond packages to more experienced pilots that aren't type rated, bonding for 5 years. with new more efficient middle management employed, gone are the days of waiting months for base checks and line training. pilots are online a couple of weeks after completing their base check. ryanair took alot of abuse in the past and possibly rightly so. it now seems that they've started addressing these issues. there's always going to be pilots annoyed and frustrated with the company they work for, that's life.

to answer the other questions that are popping up that i also wanted answered before i started:

papazulu - the wait can be any amount of time before you're contacted, especially now they've decided to stop interviewing cadets. it seems to be around six months, although they will now have a backlog building up. it will, like any other HR department, be expedited if you contact them or even better if you know someone

738-jockey couldn't be more right. get in the sim, i would suggest parc aviation in dublin, a guy called adrian, he's very good at getting you trained for the sim check. get the boeing CBT, you'll soon realise it's got more holes in it than bush's brain after a week of your TR groundschool, but it's a good start. then definitely get the PMDG for flight sim, it's an add on that has an extremely accurate 738 cockpit- although not the winglet ryanair aircraft, (and also no aft overhead panel that i could find?- anyone any help on that?)

good luck to you all, Bbear

EGAC_Ramper

29th Aug 2006, 21:24

:
papazulu - the wait can be any amount of time before you're contacted, especially now they've decided to stop interviewing cadets. it seems to be around six months, although they will now have a backlog building up. it will, like any other HR department, be expedited if you contact them or even better if you know someone

Just note I have recently been contacted as have others to go to East Midlands during the coming months. Seems Ryanair are lining up Cadets to start for the type ratings early next year. I aint complaining and I'm almost positive this came from my MCC through Parc. As you've mentioned I'm off back there for some sim practice with said Adrian in preparation for the simcheck.

Regards :ok: