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Flightmech
22nd Oct 2006, 09:49
0830Z.
Just witnessed a full evacuation of a Thomson 757 at STN after landing RWY23. Reason unknown at this time. Nil obvious smoke etc .All pax off but one poor guy as witnessed through binocluars went down head first! Hope he's ok. STN currently closed for ARR/DEP

Flightmech
22nd Oct 2006, 10:12
Aircraft now being towed from link 'L' to terminal area, still with chutes deployed and a fireman walking at each door holding the chute off the ground. Thats a long walk! Runway re-open at 0905Z.

VFR Transit
22nd Oct 2006, 11:58
A Newcastle based 757-200 arrived at London Stansted at 09:35 local on runway 23, and was ordered by the captain to deploy the chutes. the reason for the evac has still not be assatained.

All passengers have now been placed in international departures and is awaiting another aircraft to continue their journey to Larnaca however there were no injuries reported.

Thomson and the pilots were still on a conference call at 11:50 local.

More information as it happens.

VFR

VFR Transit
22nd Oct 2006, 12:27
MORE INFORMATION:

Flight Number: TOM2807 from Newcastle - Larnaca

Aircraft: G-BYAO B757-200

Reason For Divert: Haze In Cabin

ThomsonFly are now looking for a spare aircraft within their fleet to take these passenger on to their destination.

All information as in my previous post.

VFR

Jordan D
22nd Oct 2006, 13:48
And on BBC News - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/6074858.stm

Safely down, pax safe. Good job.

JD

Capt Wannabe
22nd Oct 2006, 15:21
All passengers have now been placed in international departures ....
VFR

Having been held for some considerable time in the 'Cow-shed'...... :hmm:

fmgc
23rd Oct 2006, 11:33
Head first? :ouch:

Taildragger67
23rd Oct 2006, 12:06
From the Beeb story:

A Thomson spokeswoman told the BBC a couple of people suffered minor friction burns from using the chute, but there were no major injuries.

I note how they made sure they included the 'from the chute' bit... :}

Bluebaron
23rd Oct 2006, 13:22
From the horses mouth:

"Smoke (blue haze) noticed shortly after TOC from NCL by cabin crew. Captain informed and he personally had a look. Retuned to flight deck and started to consider options (get wx poss airports etc). Then told by cabin crew smoke was getting worse and pax upset.

Took decision to divert to STN. During descent smoke started to enter flight deck and O2 donned. After landing and considering a long taxi in with pax increasingly upset and smoke getting worse captain decided to evac".

It was assummed to be engine Oil burning and entering ducting.

wombat13
23rd Oct 2006, 17:06
0830Z.
Just witnessed a full evacuation of a Thomson 757 at STN after landing RWY23. Reason unknown at this time. Nil obvious smoke etc .All pax off but one poor guy as witnessed through binocluars went down head first! Hope he's ok. STN currently closed for ARR/DEP

Not wanting to pull anyones tail on this, but is there a difference between a full evacuation and an evacuation?

The Wombat

Ontariotech
23rd Oct 2006, 17:19
Full evac is where you have to get off the aircraft at the crews direction

An evac that is not full is optional as to wether or not you leave.:}

old,not bold
23rd Oct 2006, 17:47
Full evac is where you have to get off the aircraft at the crews direction

An evac that is not full is optional as to wether or not you leave.:}

Would that be an expert opinion?

I love the idea of having a bit of a debate about evacuating or not, at pax discretion.

blue up
23rd Oct 2006, 18:29
A long-term investigation into Organo Phosphate oil contamination and poisoning due to failed RB211-535-E4 seals is currently underway by BALPA. I noticed with interest the registration of the particular airframe.:hmm:

I can remember a similar incident where we needed to wipe the oil smears off the instruments. 40 minutes after landing, the eng said he still saw a thick fog of blue fumes when he entered the flightdeck. If anyone knows the names of the crew involved then can they suggest that they contact Tristan Lorraine at BALPA about the blood tests. I was as sick as a dog for a week after the event.

Dream Buster
23rd Oct 2006, 18:57
I think you will find that the 'long term' investigation by BALPA was a bit too long term for most people to bear.:ugh:

As a matter of fact and for some very good reasons, the BALPA Quality Expert is no longer at BALPA.:E

Just for the record.:D

DB:ok:

bmibabyrock4eva
23rd Oct 2006, 19:55
hey everyone, G-BYAO had a emergency landing at NEMA about 2 weeks ago, as the engine was making a vibrating noise and there was smoke in the cabin, maybe the same kind of thing, if so i think that aircraft needs work dont u agree.:ok:

old-timer
23rd Oct 2006, 23:24
Well done Tom crew, they earned their on that sector.
Very glad everyone is safe - the investigators can research the cause
at their leisure but you can't replace the crew & pax.

angelorange
24th Oct 2006, 09:27
Global Cabin Air Quality Executive - now run by IPA/IPF since BALPA has withdrawn gradually from the subject. 1st meeting was at Gatwick on 5&6 OCt 2006. Next one is 7/8 March 2007. See www.ipapilot.com

Glad these chaps made a successful recovery into STN and got the pax out asap. Well done!

easyprison
24th Oct 2006, 13:49
"Captain informed and he personally had a look. Retuned to flight deck ...."

I hope that part of the rumour isn't true!

Glad to hear all got off OK.

TUGNBAR
24th Oct 2006, 14:46
Ermm.............just heard that a Thomson 757 has aborted take off at Stansted. A/c is safely sitting on taxiway all shut down with forward door open, fire brigade in attendance.

Bluebaron
24th Oct 2006, 15:12
easyprison,

Capt did have a look (spoke to him personally). Seems like a good idea to me, given the circumstances. If there was a thick black cloud and fire then maybe he would not leave the flight deck but as stated the cabin crew had only noticed a slight blue haze so well worth checking it out rather than diving for the deck.

Although i appreiate every instance if different.

BB;)

Mr Angry from Purley
24th Oct 2006, 18:19
Blue up

Dont think TOM use that engine ?:\

blue up
24th Oct 2006, 19:08
Yes!

When I last flew Alpha Oscar it had TWO of them.:rolleyes:

clipstone1
24th Oct 2006, 21:24
Can guarantee all Tfly (ex BY) B757-204 aircraft are fitted with RB211-535E4 engines.......

The B767-204ER and B767-304ER are fitted with GE CF6 A2 or C2 engines however......

Push to talk
24th Oct 2006, 21:37
Alpha Oscar did engine runs all day at Stansted today.

clipstone1
24th Oct 2006, 21:47
bet the bugger behaved all day too...

Smudger
24th Oct 2006, 21:48
Good job by all concerned, by the looks of it. As previous posters say, monday-morning quarterbacking is all very well, at least all involved are here to discuss it all over a beer. Well done.

Mervyn's Clowns
25th Oct 2006, 01:15
What concerns me is that they took so long to divert after the fumes being reported after takeoff from NCL.

Why did the Crews not don the O2 Masks immediately as per the QRH/Emergency Check list and Government guidelines?

Merv.

Nerik
25th Oct 2006, 04:39
Mr. Clown,

Do you know how long after takeoff the smoke was reported to the cockpit crew? 1min, 2mins, 20 mins? There is mention of the smoke being reported after TOC which would probably put the aircraft nearer to STN than NCL at the time.


Great judge you are.

WindSheer
25th Oct 2006, 05:08
Good god!!

Are there any professionals on here......:=
Again well done to the crew involved...apologies you have to go under the usual ridiculous speculation!! :ugh:

whatdoesthisbuttondo
25th Oct 2006, 07:30
What concerns me is that they took so long to divert after the fumes being reported after takeoff from NCL.

Why did the Crews not don the O2 Masks immediately as per the QRH/Emergency Check list and Government guidelines?

Merv.

There's always one. . .

A4
25th Oct 2006, 13:04
What concerns me is that they took so long to divert after the fumes being reported after takeoff from NCL.
Why did the Crews not don the O2 Masks immediately as per the QRH/Emergency Check list and Government guidelines?
Merv.

What makes you think they took so long? If my memory serves me correctly, a departure from NCL to LCA would track down the east coast of the UK (due danger areas in the North Sea) before turning left across the North Sea around about The Wash. The haze was noticed "shortly after TOC" (Note: Top Of Climb NOT takeoff - i.e. about 30 mins after Takeoff) which would probably be about the same point as the left turn. To STN from there is about 100 odd miles so STN seems to be the perfect diversion airfield - straight in! EMA probably also a good choice.
Perhaps the initial diversion was precautionary but the haze became more significant in the latter part of the descent, by which time they were well on the way to STN.

It's easy to judge after the event but you weren't there - so don't :=

No one was injured, the aircraft was recovered safely - job well done in my book.

A4
P.S. Which Government (HA!) guidelines are you talking about ? :confused:

Mervyn's Clowns
25th Oct 2006, 18:23
"From the horses mouth:

"Smoke (blue haze) noticed shortly after TOC from NCL by cabin crew. Captain informed and he personally had a look. Retuned to flight deck and started to consider options (get wx poss airports etc). Then told by cabin crew smoke was getting worse and pax upset.

Took decision to divert to STN. During descent smoke started to enter flight deck and O2 donned. After landing and considering a long taxi in with pax increasingly upset and smoke getting worse captain decided to evac".

It was assumed to be engine Oil burning and entering ducting."


This does appear to be Non Standard. As far as I'm aware the Immediate actions on most Commercial aircraft these days is to don the O2 Masks and establish communications. I can post the relevant emergency check list/QRH if necessary.

I still stand by my original post. As others have also mentioned, I hope that this part of the rumour isn't true, which was my concern.

Merv.

BOAC
25th Oct 2006, 18:43
OK - that one can stay! The 'drill' of which you speak is actioned when there is a 'concentration' of smoke/fumes. A 'blue haze' in the cabin could be the food burning. It could be a plastic cover in the oven. It could be many things. It seems to me the drill was 'actioned' when the Captain decided he had a smoke/fumes concentration. As far as I'm aware the Immediate actions on most Commercial aircraft these days is to don the O2 Masks and establish communications. I can post the relevant emergency check list/QRH if necessary. - In the 737 QRH the 'mask and goggles' are 'IF required'. I believe the 757 is the same.

On what little information I have on this event I would suggest that the actions were impeccable. I may be wrong, but I am not prepared to judge, unlike you. If this is non-standard' as you put it I'm sure the company will address this.

Please state what your aviation qualifications are which enable you to criticise. Captain-F/O? ATPL? 757 qualified?

Green Guard
25th Oct 2006, 19:16
Well Done !

But it might have be done even better

if before all the pan panic, Cdr have (I hope he did) done one (at a time) by one engine aircon bleed switched off, to check for any changes

If he had a time to walk in cabine

BOAC
25th Oct 2006, 19:41
Time-line a bit confused, eh, GG?

Walk in cabin BEFORE decision to make diversion to STN.

Who mentioned a PAN? There may well have been one, or a MAYDAY, but I see no mention.

Once the a/c was on the way down for a priority recovery at STN, I suspect that mucking around with packs was low on the list.

Torycanyon
25th Oct 2006, 21:56
I read the deleted posts earlier on and have to share the same concerns.

On the 146 and I believe the Boeings as well, that the QRH or Emergency Check List as it is called on the 146, has had major changes quite recently ( in the last couple of years anyway.)
This was to stop exactly what you have mentioned, mucking around with the systems when you should be getting the a/c on the deck ASAP.

The 146 Check List was very long winded, shutting down packs, electrics, etc.
Now it is basically, Get on Oxy, Establish Communications and Divert to Nearest Suitable Airport.:ok:

Fbrigade
26th Oct 2006, 08:24
This does appear to be Non Standard. As far as I'm aware the Immediate actions on most Commercial aircraft these days is to don the O2 Masks and establish communications. I can post the relevant emergency check list/QRH if necessary.

I still stand by my original post. As others have also mentioned, I hope that this part of the rumour isn't true, which was my concern.

Merv.
The most important danger of the fumes/smoke in a confined space is the toxicity. The best way to protect your body breathing system is to stay out of the fumes/smoke or to have a protection (O2). The contamination done by the toxicity can incrase very quickly.:\
The inspection done by the capt in the cabine was certainly not a bad idea but the consequences could be worth as you expect before you leave the clean area(cockpit).
Opening the door of the cockpit especially if smoke in cabin is not particullary well located is still complicated to evaluate.
The most important aspect is to be prepared to cope with a rapid degradation of the situation.
There is no fumes/smoke without a combustion effect :bored:
The job done by the TOM's crew was well done but the "Jogging in cabin" was probably not really adequate.
Wich information was given by the cabin crew to the cockpit during this flight ?(colour/density/location/evolution)
How to evaluate the fumes/smoke and to communicate with the ckpt is not simple.
Good job TOm's Crew but protect your Nose first the next time.:D

squeaker
26th Oct 2006, 08:30
Merv, it is worth remembering that he didn't get fumes in the cockpit until he started the descent for diversion. Sounds like they did a good job to me, aircraft on the ground sharpish, everyone ok. What more do you want?

break dancer
26th Oct 2006, 09:01
Most checklists call for O2 masks if required. In this case the crew donned the masks when required. One thing for sure, as soon as the masks come on, the communication on the FD becomes alot harder, so I think good job.
As for the evacuation, with no obvious signs of fire from ATC, cabin crew, would a precautionary disembarkation have been a better option. Our procedures enable it to be done with or without steps/air bridge and minimises any injuries which may come about from an immediate evacuation and all the panic associated with that.
Either way, I think a good job to the entire crew, including the CC who first brought it to the attention of the FD.

Sinik
26th Oct 2006, 14:24
Just saw G-BYAO take-off and depart from Stansted around 2 hours ago. Was good to hear the tower wish them "good luck" as they were cleared to depart!

yeoman
28th Oct 2006, 15:59
Apparently the original plan was to deplane normally via steps. Steps were requested and you can guess the rest. The situation viz pax began to deteriorate and it was only a matter of time before somebody took matters into their own hands.

No, I wasn't there.

The introductory blurb in the 757 QRH sates that 02 and goggles should be used if neccessary. No idea about masks on anything other than 757/767 but they are a serious barrier to effective communications.

As an aside, only 2 of the 200 odd pax declined to continue their journey with TOM later in the day.

blue up
28th Oct 2006, 20:28
Did the whole "smoke and fumes" drill in the sim just last month. More difficult to communicate via mask than it is to contact Mumbai on the HF! Leaving the intercom column switch latched on makes it a lot worse. (the sound of someone breathing in/out and the swoosshhh of the flowing oxy)

Methinks the 787/7E7 ought to lead the way and give us some more effective means of communication with the oxy on. How about an inflatable bag with the same elastic tube thingy around the neck?

The coiled oxy line in the sim wrapped itself around the oxy door as I pulled it out. Not being able to see it through the 'smoke' meant that I wasn't able to get my head all the way back in the seat and I couldn't even get my head to an angle where I could look up to the pack switches. One for you to store away in the memory!!!

RMC
29th Oct 2006, 08:34
Not criticising the crew, as it seems they followed the Boeing drill to the letter.
As our fire service friend hints at though there are instances (and no one at the time is certain when they are) where any delay putting on your mask will result in incapacitation.
Have done the decompression chamber jigsaw (thinking everything was great) then been unable to execute the "now you can plug your oxygen back in" command (I just looked at the plug...looked at the instructor and laughed apparently. Really brings it home.
Hypoxia, narcosis etc all have a common symptom and that is "Impairs judgement and co-ordination and may create a false sense of security, cause disregard for safety and other foolish behaviour"
If you get into this state you are beyond the point of no return and all will be lost. The scary thing is you don't realise it is happening to you. So the "oxygen if required" statement has a fundamental flaw.
Our drill for any smoke odour or fumes in the cabin is....
Crew oxy masks....don 100%
Goggles...............don
Crew coms...........establish
Diversion..............consider
Most dangerous gases cannot be smelt and/or seen (carbon monoxide etc) there is no place for making gas conentration assessments which are only effectively made by caged budgies / canaries and carbon monoxide detectors (the latter would be easier to check in). My understanding is that carbon monoxide would be one of the gases given out by an engine seal failure.
If the Boeing procedure at least asked for one of the crew to don oxygen immediately it would make a lot more sense. Procedures like this, after all, should protect against the worst case gas scenario.

Mervyn's Clowns
29th Oct 2006, 11:14
UK government guidelines as follows from the Hansard's





7th December 2004 Official Report (Commons Hansard), Vol.428, Col. 420W,
Air Passengers (Chemical Exposure)
Mr. Tyler: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether UK airline captains experiencing cockpit or cabin air contamination event serious enough for pilots to use emergency oxygen have a responsibility to inform passengers to which chemicals they might have been exposed. [202745]

Charlotte Atkins: Pilots are required to use oxygen as a precautionary measure in all cases of suspected cockpit air abnormalities irrespective of severity of event. Flight crew are not professionally qualified to verify the cause of air contamination or identify what chemicals if any, passengers may have been exposed to. The captain has discretion to inform passengers of an event.






Merv.

BOAC
29th Oct 2006, 11:33
Clowns - in light of your posts #32 and #44 can you tell us exactly why you think the crew did not in fact follow the 'government guidelines'?

You do not appear to have replied to my request for you to state your credentials in commenting on this matter, but if you are indeed qualified, may I ask if your company approve of your operating your aircraft IAW 7th December 2004 Official Report (Commons Hansard), Vol.428, Col. 420W, or do they expect you to follow the QRH?

In view of your silence and comments I will assume you are not qualified.As far as I'm aware the Immediate actions on most Commercial aircraft these days is to don the O2 Masks and establish communications. I can post the relevant emergency check list/QRH if necessary.

We'd all be interested if you would. I suspect it is not universal if it indeed does exist as 'RMC' states, and remember that is a cabin crew drill, not a QRH action. Whether or not it SHOULD be is another matter.

RMC
30th Oct 2006, 21:11
The drill I quoted was the EMB 145 QRH (flight deck memory items). It reflects the concerns shown by MC's last post.

As you say though...in a court of law we can only operate iaw the manufacturers QRH...which is what these guys appear to have done.

Would be interested to hear what the medics have to say about this...will see if anyone is home.

iskandra
30th Oct 2006, 21:50
I had a similar experience in 1999 - see this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=186163).

But no one bothered whether we actually inhaled some of the potentially toxic stuff or not - no medical team was interested in us at all. The rubber jungle was released only after some time, when it was already difficult to see through the smoke. The smoke itself smelt of burnt electronics, though, not kerosene.
Interesting enough, there was absolutely NO panic. But there were more than just two people who refused to board another plane - it must have been at least ten.

Dream Buster
30th Oct 2006, 23:14
Iskandra,

Type 'aerotoxic $yndrome' into any $earch engine and you will be become aware of the be$t kept $ecret in aviation and find out all about what the Doctor$ have never under$tood and the politician$ don't want you to under$tand....$$$$$$$$$$!

What is right is often forgotten by what i$ convenient.

BOAC
30th Oct 2006, 23:23
In line with the way this thread is going, http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=146733