oh dear

[serf]

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=49367.html

[Pontius Navigator]

I quote from the above thread:

By way of introduction, apart from my role as a member of the House of Commons Defence Select Committee, I am also a serving member of the Territorial Army and it was in this latter role that I travelled through your station on the way back from Kabul on Tuesday 26th September after an eight week operational tour in Afghanistan.

Whilst I have served on several operational tours before, my motivation for volunteering for service during summer recess was to see first hand what our troops were gong through and whilst much of what I experienced was positive, I regret to say that the service provided by your station was not. If I may I would like to recite the experience, and whilst I appreciate the start and end of the journey are not your responsibility, the majority of it was. My overwhelming impression was one of a complete lack of service by the RAF and of what little was provided, was done so merely at the convenience of the RAF with little or no regard for passengers.

I am sure that there was good reason to have to arrive at Kabul airport at 05:15 for a 09:30 flight, but I would be delighted to know what it was. Having been given just 15 minutes for breakfast we were told we had to be back in the departure lounge by 07:30.

The flight finally took offshortly before 10:00 (D+30) and landed in Cyprus shortly after14:00 local. On landing we were told to take off all of'our hand baggage due to a minor problem with a widow that was expected to be fixed during our two hour stay on thc ground. (I subsequently d iscovered from a member of the crew that the fault with the window was discovered and reported in Kabul, but the crew were keen to get to Cyprus rather than stay in Kabul).

On entering the terminal, troops on the front patio were quickly told to come inside as they were not allowed to stand outside, no explanation was given. ShortIy after entering a Flt Sgt announced that it would take two days to fix the Tri-Star and that a Titan Airways 737 had been held back to fly us home. We subsequently discovered that this plane 'that had been held back for us' was in fact not due to take off until 20.00 and was in fact scheduled to take home elements of 3 PARA post decompression.

The flight was scheduled to go first to Hanover but these passengers (almost 311 returning for R&R) were informed that the flight would no longer be going there and that their onward travel would be 'sorted out' when they arrived at Brize. Shortly after our arrival all RAF staff disappeaed and no facilities were offered to troops to ring home to let families know of the delay.

At approximately 17:00 buses were lad on to take troops to dinner, being on the last bus that left a 17:20 I was told that I would only have 10 minutes to eat behre having to travel back. Not it turns out due to meal times, hut apparently due to a shift change, the airmen escorting us were due to end their shift and keen to go home. I cannot begin to express the anger that this revelation caused with the many troops who had been on a six month 'shift' m Helmand. Having been forced to return to the te rminal to meet your stations shift patterns all RAF staff once again disappeared.

20:00 came and went with no departure. Approximately 20:10 the duty mover (a Ft
Sgt) came into the terminal to announce that there was a problem – it turns out the weight of the passengers and bags were too great for the 737. He was rightly questioned as to why this hadn't been established 6 hours before when the Tri-Star first went U/S, he was unable to answer.

At approximately 20.30 the same Flt Sgt rushed in to announce that passengers had 30 secs to decide whether to travel tonight with no bags, or wait two days for the Tri-star to be fixed to travel with the bags. Understandingly passengers were not happy and when asked when and how they would pick up their bags he was unable to answer. Potentially passengers going to Gemny on R&R would have to wait two days at Brize for their bags only then to be transported by road to Germany and so miss the first 3 days of ther R&R.

It was suggested that since the flight would be travelling to Brize, the Germany passengers bags should be taken off allowing the remainder to travel to Brize with bags and the Germany passengers to travel the following day to Germany with the Tri-Star and avoid a road transfer. Whilst it was accepted tllat this was a good idea, we discovered that it was impossible because all of the bags which had been carefully segegated in Kabul had been mixed up when unloading the Tri-Star.

It was interesting that up until this point not a single RAF officer had been present in the terminal.

The Flt Sg then apologised for suggesting that passengers travel without bags as it was clearly a mad idea given the uncertainty of when the bags would follow. Unfortunately for him 15 mins later a Flt Lt (the first officer to be seen) turned up and 'ordered' passengers to get on the plane without their bags.

I wish my departure from Cyprus was the end of this sorry saga, I regret it was not. Having arrived at Brize we were handed pre-printed cards (presumably this debacle is a regular occurence) giving a number to ring to find out when the bags would arrive. Ringing the next day I was told first that the flight would now be arriving at Stansted and that my bags would be taken to Colchester. The second time I rang I was told that my weapon was at Brize but my bags were at CoIchester. Finally at my third attempt, I discovered that my bags had arrived at Brize only a few hours after me, obviously the Tri-Star damage was not a serious as was first thought.

Overall it was an appalling experience that gave the impression of a station being run entirely for the convenience of the RAF (and particularly the 'shift' system) with scant if any concern for returning troops from theatre. You will be aware that the Defence Select Comrnittce are due to travel to Cyprus as part of an investigation into the support that the Garrison provides to Operations in Iraq and Afghanistan and after my expericnce I intend to focus on the role played by the RAF.

In the meantime I would gratefu1 if you could provide answers to the following questions. If you feel unable to do so I intend to table Parliamentary questions on the 18th Oct so answers can supplied prior to the Committees visit at the end of the month...
Yours ever
Mark Lancaster

[Skeleton]

Akro has not changed then!! Regardless of how much of the above is true, I think many would agree aircraft get in the way of a 3 year tour in the sun to some of the staff in that location.
Had to giggle at the other letter.... get this!!

In summary to solve the problems at BZN, "Flat panel" information totes are to be installed!!!

And they cannot provide a BA style service....... :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

SUPPORTING THE OPERATIONAL AIRBRIDGE
In recent months, there have been a number of high-profile articles and letters on the subject of the Airbridges between the UK and our operational theatres. As the officer within PJHQ charged with co-ordinating the service, I felt it was time I wrote outlining some of the facts about the manner in which we move our personnel and equipment on operations. In doing this, I hope to provide some home truths about the performance of military and charter aircraft so that you will better understand some of the problems we face and how we are trying to solve them. Fundamentally, no-one wants to see or hear of personnel who are delayed en-route and, for example, consequently miss some of their hard-earned R&R, but it is my aim to reassure all travellers that the very best is being done to reduce the instances of delays.
Firstly though, there is no higher priority in our planning than the safety of our personnel. The fact is the threat to our aircraft is real, constant and can not be ignored. We wish to reduce risk as far as possible, and to this end, CDS has directed that all personnel moving into and out of the operational theatres in Iraq and Afghanistan on RAF AT must be moved on suitably protected aircraft. I am well aware that some other nations operate differently. That is their choice, but the UK position is to err on the side of safety and, consequently, we are more limited in the choices available to us.
Unfortunately, not all our aircraft are equipped with the same levels of Defensive Aids Suites (DAS), which reduces the flexibility when problems occur – as they inevitably do on operations when using aircraft that are far from new. Naturally, this small pool of assets has to be used carefully in order to deliver operational effect most efficiently. Where we can not fly directly to the theatre, we use a hub and spoke operation (this means flying a large aircraft like the TriStar to somewhere like Akrotiri or Al Udeid and then transferring personnel to an aircraft like the smaller protected C130 for the final leg into theatre); this type of operation is expensive to resource in aircraft and personnel and does not, despite popular belief, always deliver a better service. We can not simply purchase more protected aircraft to fill the void in the short-term; therefore, we must work within existing capabilities. The RAF C130 fleet is almost exclusively working in support of our principal operations; adding an aircraft to one theatre inevitably means taking from another. We are, however, increasing the number of suitably protected aircraft. Lengthy and complex modification programmes will increase the availability of C130 aircraft and provide more protected Tristar KC1 aircraft early in 2007. These additions will give us greater options and the flexibility to recover situations where delays have occurred. We must remember, though, that we will never stop the impact of weather or diplomatic clearances which can serve to unhinge the most well-laid plans. When trying to recover a delayed aircraft, we can sometimes be forced to wait for up to a week before diplomatic clearances allow aircraft to arrive at an airfield. Equally, the altitude and time of year, runway restrictions and fuel availability all serve to compromise payloads and our ability to make rapid programme changes.
The improvements to aircraft numbers is only one way we are trying to improve the service to passengers. The RAF is implementing a range of improvements at RAF Brize Norton, all designed to ensure that passengers are made more comfortable and better informed if delays occur. Examples of these changes are, the provision of internet terminals, flat panel information totes and easier checking in for some categories of passengers, such as those carrying only cabin baggage. Of course, while we will do all we can to improve the situation, we can never expect to achieve the BA Business Class standard, as I am sure you will appreciate.
My staff are also currently undertaking a review of movements manning and processes (including a major review of passenger handling), in conjunction with the front line commands, across all operational theatres. This review is aimed at ensuring that we have the most effective practice and staffing levels possible throughout all theatres. The RAF and Army Movements tradesmen being considered are amongst the most stretched when it comes to operations; the review has to consider how we best balance the need for adequate personnel on operations with the obvious need to maintain functions in the UK.
Sometimes, the very nature of the operation itself limits how we can serve a theatre. A land-locked country such as Afghanistan leaves us very little choice. For the future, we hope that we will be able to use Kandahar airfield as the strategic point of entry to Op HERRICK. We are, however, still constrained by current infrastructure work on the runway and the capacity of the taxiways to take a large aircraft such as Tristar. As soon as possible, we will adjust the way we fly to that theatre. In Op TELIC, the C130 fleet is being re-configured to give a more flexible service to the theatre as a whole. Much of the work is ongoing, and takes time to implement, but will produce dividends.
It is important to look at some hard facts. I have heard the groans when we talk of introducing a Tristar service to a theatre, but the reality is that during the past year, when it flew in support of Op TELIC, its performance was quite good. 89% of tasks actually ran within 6 hours of planned times. This was achieved at a time when we only had between 1 and 2 suitably protected aircraft available for the majority of the year. We experienced a few 24-hour delays, but even including those delays, the average delay to all tasks was only 3½ hours. Setting aside reliability and looking at pure journey time, the hub & spoke operation, currently used in Op TELIC, takes an average of 8 hours longer than direct flights from Basra for passengers to get home. On balance, I am convinced that the Tristar is capable of delivering a good and reliable service over time. We will never avoid the occasional difficulty, I have already outlined our limited resources and some of the constraints, but as more protected aircraft come on line we will see things improve.
To summarise, the PJHQ places significant importance on the maintenance of the moral component of its personnel on deployed operations. Frustrations felt when individuals’ travel arrangements are affected by delays are always felt by the Commanders in theatre, at PJHQ and the front line commands. We are, however, operating in environments that have significant levels of threat to our personnel and equipment. It is that very threat that drives the manner in which we transport personnel and equipment. The UK has no intention of compromising on the safety of individuals travelling to/from operational theatres, given the threat and operating constraints with which we have to live, we will continue to make maximum use of scares resources. However, I have described a number of measures under way which I am confident will improve the service at all stages of the journey for passengers. We can never avoid delays altogether, and we must remember that we are dealing with operations; expectations of the service should be placed in that particular context. Certainly, we are not resting on our laurels because it is our responsibility to provide the best service we can to those who are at the sharp end of Defence.
Air Commodore M J G Wiles MBA FCILT RAF is Assistant Chief of Staff J1/J4 at PJHQ, responsible for all Personnel and Logistics support of UK forces deployed on operations overseas.

[Pontius Navigator]

Good informative letter about the way ahead with aircraft. Shame about Mark Lancaster's experience.

[snakepit]

Good informative letter about the way ahead with aircraft. Shame about Mark Lancaster's experience.

Not really, just full of excuses about years of under funding of major transport fleets coupled with lack of manpower. Still that’s what people expect from the senior airships; one couldn't have them pointing the finger at themselves and saying we let this happen. RAF, never has the F stood for Farce more than it does today, its all very embarrassing.

[airborne_artist]

Agree with Snakepit - with the rider that if the Airships had been really brave they'd have told the MoD and the PM before GW2 that they did not have the AT assets to support exped warfare so far away.

Still, at the outset GW2 was going to be all over by Christmas, wasn't it?

[ZH875]

I discovered that my bags had arrived at Brize only a few hours after me Where's his problem.. The muppets didn't lose his baggage, and it landed at the same airfiled he did:)

Totally agree with snakepit.

[WPH]

Surely 'as a member of the House of Commons Defence Select Committee' he should be taking a step back from childish jibes and look at why we are in such a mess with AT. Having been on the receiving end of similar treatment, I agree that the movers/ adminers at many DOBs could do more to make passenger/ baggage handling a better experience for their 'customers'. However, I'm sure these 'passenger terminals' are equally frustrated by the lack of resources (manpower and material) they are given to complete their task.

Childish jibes on a forum from an inconvenienced MP, rather than using his position to address the root cause of the problem with the government? I'd never believe it!

[mutleyfour]

An 8 week look and see in Afghanistan....nothing to do with getting a piece of shiny metal for his chest then?

[Twonston Pickle]

I'm posted to Cyprus soon; bet the cushy life has been axed by then, especially in response to the letter!

Seriously, the attitude of the movers has been shocking for many years; morale may be low in the RAF, and the military as a whole, but you should still be able to provide a good service and particularly to your fellow servicemen. Shift change excuses are poor skills; you stay on shift until the job is done and staying half an hour for late pax to eat a meal is not that difficult to arrange.

I experienced something similar coming back from Telic for R&R but we had 15 mins for breakfast! At least bunk beds and a TV were provided though. When trying to return from R&R back to theatre, I was told that my name wasn't on the list and I wouldn't be able to travel (despite having written confirmation from the FMCC in theatre!). I eventually convinced them (why didn't I just go home?) that they should squeeze me on, only to be told that they now needed me to be the PRO (despite a Lt Col on Board and I'm only a Flt Lt). Cheeky Barstewards. I did get a row of seats all to myself though.

Edited to add that WPH has the MP bang to rights; he's there to improve things, not whinge like us.

[Regie Mental]

Mark Lancaster is one of two MPs in Milton Keynes. He is a member of CIMIC and during his time in the 'gan his blog was published in the local free newspaper. During his time in theatre he seemed to spend a lot of time flying around the country and seemed very adept at finding constituents with whom to press the flesh. From his blog he didn't seem to do a great deal of work (although perhaps he left the boring stuff out ;) ). It was a good read and certainly preferable to the local wimpish Labour MP who was against the war but voted for it.
The final blog which detailed his travails in returning to the UK spoilt it all. He seemed to have no comprehension of the difficulties facing a stretched AT fleet. Fact is, aircraft go u/s and when they do the RAF can't simply conjure up a replacement there and then, British Airways it ain't. Most importantly he got back to the UK in one piece and his baggage arrived the following day. In his blog he accepted this was not inconvenient as he had to return to BZN to collect his weapon in any event.

[Data-Lynx]

I'll take issue with WPH and the 'Childish jibes'. The MP didn't use the forum; it was a formal letter to the Wg Cdr Staish at Akrotiri and a blog in his local newspaper. It's the scanned copy of his letter titled Service provided by RAF Akrotiri to Transiting Troops on House of Commons headed paper dated this month, that has flashed around MoD, Front Line Commands, many Out-Stations and some centres of MoD consultation. The MP is also an ex regular officer from the Queens Gurkha Engineers.

Some of the note can be dissected. A window fault that might have been identified in theatre and which was reported on arrival at Akrotiri remains A/C captain business in an aging and hard-worked aircraft. The pax were better off in Cyprus, but I hope the likely AOG unserviceability was radioed ahead. There are many good people in the Air Ops and Mover world who now have to expect and routinely anticipate unserviceability and plan accordingly, where assets are available. However, they were not obvious in AKT that afternoon.

The next section was frankly too familiar: cancellation of the R&R slot to Germany with a complete lack of facilities to advise families of delay and what could be 2 to 3 days loss of R&R. There was no Duty Officer in sight for ages (over 6 hrs) to manage, liaise, interpret unfortunate comments from some duty staff (who seemed more eager to get home to a comfortable Cyprus evening than service dusty soldiers) and deal with the changes. Hours of waiting comprising 'on the bus/off the bus' snafus with meals; no one apparently looking ahead to check the basics on numbers and baggage weight for a change of aircraft, plans, plans and more plans then orders and counter orders to travel without baggage. Then they arrive at BZZ without their kit.

This spat has become public, grubby, disappointing and probably short-lived. I hope that when the MP revisits the base with the rest of the DSC, the grovelling will be offset with some hard messages about ancient AT and workload. He has already said about Afghanistan that there needed to be "political honesty" about the nature of the military commitment.and I do know that progress is being made, but it is painfully slow.

The second quote does seem to have an echo outside Afghanistan and Iraq. Whatever we may think of the content, the speed with which this note spread perhaps reflects the bruising that many of us self-loading luggage oiks have felt over the years. The letter included a number of questions which would be tabled in Parliament if an answer was not forthcoming and it is understood that a MoD politico has already replied. That means the dialogue may never get into Hansard so I wonder if anything will change?

[mustflywillfly]

Am I one of the few that has had excellent experiences with Crabair ?

Telic: Flew home via Cyprus, superb service, lift from the terminal to the mess, room prepared (the lass that works in the mess office is rather nice and was there earlier this year). Flight home on time.

Various trips to the Falklands: Slight niggle having to arrive at stupid 0'clock at Brize (for what reason?) but great trips down and the customary "airshow" from the F3 mates (bless'em) on arrival.

Various trips to Cyprus to visit RN Cyprus Squadron: Again on time, friendly and even some Billy Idol played through the cabin on approach back at Brize!

Her Majesty's Flying Club do a good job with the resources and I have no complaints. (Air hostees in flying coveralls very funny, heck some of them are quite attractive)

MFWF :D

[Regie Mental]

(Air hostees in flying coveralls very funny, heck some of them are quite attractive)MFWF :D

Had me going there for a minute.

[Zoom]

It is an appalling way to treat anyone, let alone battle-weary troops. Ten quid says that any one of those people involved would moan like h*ll if his Easyjet flight to Malaga was 5 minutes late or if any other part of the service was a fraction below par, adding: 'Of course, I have to move hundreds of battle-weary troops every day swiftly and efficiently.......blah, blah.' Tragic.

[Op Tastic]

Ppers,

Sorry for the following rant, but one or two comments posted above let your Service down.

Just loved the shallow, crass and peurile comment from Mutley; just goes to show that the RAF should be wound-up by the end of the year. Why am I not surprised that the significane of the MP in question, having given up his summer recess to serve, is entirely missed and his actions ridiculed by a junior individual (within a junior Service)?

A childish jibe? Any resolution from the MP's concerns will begin, in one part, by tabling questions, which he has aldready done. Pse allow the Defence Select Cttee the freedom of their actions and, hopefully, the RAF will be re-aligned to providing a more effective service to its customer.

Rant over.

:-)

[MrBernoulli]

After 16 years in the RAF I can categorically say that my experiences of Movers, overwhelmingly, and Akrotiri, very often, were not pleasant. These folk are sh1te, double sh1te and triple sh1te! Simple. They don't have any excuses, they're just plain vanilla sh1te. :*

Regie Mental: "...aircraft go u/s and when they do the RAF can't simply conjure up a replacement there and then, British Airways it ain't." I can tell you that BA doesn't have spare aircraft either, they just have more of them. If one breaks, they may pull another from a different schedule .... but that schedule suffers nevertheless. However, BA are unlikely to behave like those monkeys in Akrotiri.

[umba]

Call me Benjamin if you like, but I don't suppose a Tory MP would be trying to make any political capital out of any of this, would he?

[snakepit]

Sorry all but I have to agree with WPH.

An MP's job is to look at all the facts before shooting from the hip and criticising the troops he wanted to "be in bed with". What he experienced is the result of under funding and undermaning full stop.

The blame cannot be place with the very small cog in a very big wheel that let him and the R&R troops down. When the DSC looks at this they hopefully will look at the big picture in a professional manner and not make offhand criticisms.

I too have experienced the good and bad sides of movers, but much like any baggage handlers/airport staff they are easy targets for frustrated travelers when things go wrong, through no fault of their own. However, everyone including the movers are undermanned, and being in Cyprus does not stop people from doing OOA ops. Who is to say that the one mover on shift that day hadn't in fact given up his post det leave from a 4 month tour just to look after the passengers in question. Who then would criticise him for wanting to finish his shift to get home?

We are all undermanned and working with seriously knackered kit. I don't think it does us any favors knocking other trades when we should be blaming the lordships and MP's who are happy to send people to war in this state!

I promise never to defend movers again.

You aint seen my right.

[FJ2ME]

Once again I am moved to apologise to members of the other services for incidents over which i personally had nothing to do with. I have friends from way back who have joined the Navy and, more particularly, the Army who have rapidly become increasingly critical of the RAF despite suffering similar equipment and financial constraints in their own services.

The problem is this in my mind. Whilst the originating events which caused the delay to the Honourable Mark Lancaster were accidental (the window fault, which, incidentally, may not even have been a consequence of ageing equipment), the main source of discontent, yet again, is the way in which WE treated them subsequent to this problem.

It is this ineffective management and cr@p service, with more concern for one's own end-of-shift time than others' discomfort which makes my blood boil. I am proud to serve in the RAF and proud of the task we achieve with the pi$$ poor equipment we are left with after years of financial neglect. But I cannot be proud of this, and many other similar tales. Quite simply, it is not how you would want to be treated yourself so why do people (ie movers) do this? The returning troops have every right to expect that their precious R&R will not be frittered away in a deserted RAF AKT terminal building, and they have every right to expect their bags come home too, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY they definately have the right to be treated like human beings and with a portion of customer service. Correct and timely information, with opportunity to pass on the news to waiting relatives, its not so much to ask!

Time and time again, conversations with friends in other services focus on poor AT back from theatre, and time and time again it is the inhuman and unthinking way in which they have been treated that causes the most offence. We can excuse the technical failures and actual delays with ageing fleets and lack of investment (and they do seem to understand this), but that does not excuse the way in which these guys are treated and served by US.

Its a disgrace and I am ashamed to be associated with it. But I can assure passengers that the crews who actually operate the aircraft in these roles (of which I am one) go to whatever lengths their rules allow to make sure the needs of the passengers are accomodated.

And as an aside, whether or not the Right Honourable gentlemen gets a gong for his service or not, I can't express enough how glad I am that at least some members of the government are trying to understand what it is they are asking of our chaps in the 'Stan and Iraq. Well done him. And some part of me is pleased he experienced the very worst of RAF AT experiences as there is a better chance something may be done to rectify it.

[mutleyfour]

Ppers,
Sorry for the following rant, but one or two comments posted above let your Service down.
Just loved the shallow, crass and peurile comment from Mutley; just goes to show that the RAF should be wound-up by the end of the year. Why am I not surprised that the significane of the MP in question, having given up his summer recess to serve, is entirely missed and his actions ridiculed by a junior individual (within a junior Service)?


So glad you enjoyed it, oh and not a junior and not in the Junior service either!

:D :D :D

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

MF,

I wondered how long it would take..................imagine him thinking you were educated enough to be an airforce chap:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[mutleyfour]

Thanks ABIW, he should have realised that my diatribe was merely a narrow minded attempt at bringing a little grin to those that doubt an MP's real intention.

Bravo for going to Theatre but I for one have been and came back with the usual run of delays and problems which I am all accustomed to without complaint. I would much rather he pursue why the Government hasnt funded the MOD more adequately or indeed why the AT fleet hasnt been provided with more DAS equipped airframes which would preclude these events from happening.

[RileyDove]

If you operate a fleet of transport aircraft which other countries would consider as a historic flight it's not that amazing that you have breakdowns!
Invest in some Airbus to do the leg to Cyprus and take the load off the Tristars - stop cutting at the coal face and look at the upper echelons!

[mutleyfour]

I agree Riley, in the short term move the three DAS aircraft to Cyprus and have a different means of delivery from Cyprus back to UK. We should also as a matter of urgency get the rest of the fleet DAS equipped as soon as possible.

[detgnome]

It's good to know that the ongoing purchase of lots of Typhoons will relieve the pressure on our rapidly crumbling AT and rotary assets.

[glum]

I think you're missing the point...

He wasn't maoning that the aircraft had gone U/S, he was moaning that he'd been delivered to the teminal 5 hours before the flight time, then delayed all day with little time to eat and no chance to call home, with virtually no staff to explain why and those that did making very vague and misleading statements. No wonder he was annoyed, and he'd only been gone 8 weeks!

As for carrying the fault to Cyprus, it makes sense since it would be a lot easier to obtain spares and repair than it would in theatre. Being a window, it may also have been within limits to begin with, and deteriorated on the next leg...

We tend to foget that we are simply a means to an end for the Army. We pat ourselves on the back and nob off home / to the hotel when we complete a flight. They regard us as an obstacle to be overcome or endured on their way to their proper jobs.

Be nice to change that so that they looked forward to being treated with respect and appreciation for the crappy job they've just completed...

[mutleyfour]

Glum, what I am saying is that if the RAF had more than three DAS equipped Tristars the problem would be reduced. Couple with this the forward basing of that fleet would reduce the UK to Cyprus leg that could be easily done using alternate non DAS equipped aircraft. That way we reduce hours flown and keep a spare capacity forward. Hopefully then the only delay in Cyprus would be during baggage transfer.

[BattlerBritain]

Reading Mr Lancaster's report I am not surprised at how badly the RAF was treating our lads in Green.

As an Ex-RAF Airman who was a Lyneham some 20 years ago things certainly don't seem to have changed much, particularly in the RAF's ability to manage SLF.

And the fact that RAF Officers were conspicuous by their absence.

I remember copping 'Duty Airman'at Lyneham on a very regular basis, usually once every 3 weeks.

Very rarely did I even see the 'Duty Officer' let alone get any direction from them.

However, on one instance I did and both I and our friends in Green could have done without it.

A TACEVAL was called early one morning when I was on Duty Airman. Within minutes of the hooter going off the whole of 3 Para turned up at the gates, apparently as part of the TACEVAL, and were due to be flown out PDQ.

At that precise moment the Duty Officer turned up screaming "Don't let them in! Don't let then in!".

Bear in mind that there was a convoy of Land Rovers and Bedfords stacked up at the gate tailing back for Gawd knows how far.

"Why not sir?" was my perplexed reply.

"They're not allowed on Station until they've been booked in" was his reply.

A Para Lt. and a very large Corporal (I'm not kidding - this bloke made Jaws out of the Bond films look small) appeared demanding where they should go to get the planes.

The D.O. spluttered "You can't proceed until you've booked in. I want every vehicle registration number and the names, ranks and serial numbers of every person in the convoy."

Both the Paras and I looked at the D.O. and looked at each other.

I seem to recall saying to the D.O. something along the lines of "Sir, these guys are on our side!"

The Paras comments had quite a few F's in them.

The Paras and I walked over to the Convoy, me armed with a clip-board and the Para Corporal with an LMG in his paw (I jest not - it was the first time I'd even seen an LMG and this bloke was waving it around like a pistol!).
We quickly sorted out where they had to go and I just stood there looking offical making up vehicle regs, names, ranks and serial nos as they drove past and for many hours after.

I seem to remember that the names 'Smith' and 'Jones' appeared on my list a lot.

And what did the D.O. do when I'd finish with my list?

File it in the round one.

Thank God I'm a Civvy now.

[ICBM]

This unfortunate affair seems to have re-fuelled some not-to-distant events of the past; even so, I cannot help but agree and sympathise with the sentiments of both the MP and his fellow passengers. My own experience of returning from both 'eastern' theatres has never been anything but sad. I've put up with having to leave homeplate 9 hours(!) before my flight is due to leave BZN, with no reason why; I've watched movers take the baggage of troops and literally hurl it through the air and then come crashing to the floor; I've been courteous to movers and had rude, almost alien, responses to simple questions most of the time. IMHO, the one common thread is that RAF movers can be relied upon to make your life difficult/uncomfortable, never be polite and never do anything quickly. They also wield their power for their own amusement.

I think this recent letter from The Hon Mark Lancaster should certainly raise some questions about the standard of 'service' on should expect from the Royal Air Force. It's high time someone took hold of the movers and re-trained them on how to be polite, task-orientated and proud of doing a hard job with some very old aircraft. In contrast, my experiences once on-board the RAF AT fleet have always been very pleasant. I just never look forward to the purgatory between leaving my own front door and walking up the aircraft steps.

ICBM

[Pontius Navigator]

Not BA certainly. Time to spare, go by air.

I wonder if there is a clue here?

How many feet on the ground are there at LHR to get the SLF loaded and a 747 off the ground?

Checkin desk staff - no SNCOs at front of house.

Luggage handlers - out of sight.

Documentation check - RAFP

SLF hanging round and wait staff - newspapers, magazines, cafeteria, last minute shop etc - all airside - BZZ? none?

Departure Lounge checkout - ground steward/ess

To aircraft - bus driver or guides.

Never a mover in sight and each to their own job.

However when it goes pear shaped their 'DAMO' is often invisible too. The clue might therefore be in the landside and airside entertainment. Make Brize etc a bit more customer friendly rather than a late night bus shelter.

At ASI, when the Timmy started through it came through at 0'Chr*st hundred but the NAAFI cantee was only open 0800-1700. Al Bowman, the stn cdr soon put paid to that.

At an O'Chr*st hundred turnround in Colombo the entire shop/cafe area opened up for a single Vickers Funbus. I still have a hideous piece of Singalese porcelain to prove I was asleep at the time.

[BEagle]

I am told that there isn't even any money in the budget to fix the broken lavatories in the 'Air Terminal' :hmm: at Brize, let alone to provide any of the other facilities to which you refer, PN....

Once upon a time you could set your watch by the departure time of the Vickers FunBus... Not any more - most AT is well past its use-by date. Not that the fast-jet centric MoD-box dwellers would realise that, of course.

By the way WTF left Brize at o-dark-hundred last night and yet again failed to follow the SID? Was it that $hagged out African DC-8 again? It sounded as though it was coming through my windows!

[Pontius Navigator]

BEags, yes, hard to remember the funbus was a young filly back in 84, barely 18, even the T* was just growing up, 8 or so was it not?

Now the geriatric jets are 40 and 30.

[movadinkampa747]

By the way WTF left Brize at o-dark-hundred last night and yet again failed to follow the SID? Was it that $hagged out African DC-8 again? It sounded as though it was coming through my windows!

You should put in a flying complaint and get the underfunded RAF to pay for triple glazing.........................

[Pontius Navigator]

You should put in a flying complaint and get the underfunded RAF to pay for triple glazing.........................

Which came first? BEags or Brize?

Stupid question, probably BEags :)

Get compensation?

Stupid question again:

"We have procedures in place to ensure that . . .

"We are aware that . . . but the flights are essential for . . .

"African Airways? Sorry nothing to do with us, take it up with . . . in darkest Africa . . .

[SamCaine]

No, no, make a £1m claim for the noise. It's all the rage.

[pigsinspace]

Glum, what I am saying is that if the RAF had more than three DAS equipped Tristars the problem would be reduced


the problem is also the spares for the DAS.

If the route was flown via Dubai (or abu Dhabi)as in the past the day would be 4-6 hours shorter for the passengers. ( and thats a long time after 6 months in Afghan) Akt of course is the low cost option.

The Co, loadie, stewards and GE all fly BZN-KBL-AKt there are 2 engs and capts.

[BEagle]

Compensation? Nope.

Just get the hired mercenaries the MoD has to augment the undermanned, underfunded, overstretched RAF with these days to follow the published SID please!

[flyboy007]

Well, here goes.
I too apologise to anybody who has been messed around on RTb from theatre, or indeed any other Tri* flight. I make this apology on behalf of the crews, the squadron, RAF Brize Norton, the RAF, and indeed the MOD (who seem unwilling/unable to make their own apologies for the lack of servicability of the AT fleet).
It is not excusable in any way to be treated as these experiences portray, and I sincerely hope that this form was not continued once actually on the Tri*.
Rest assured that certainly everybody I have flown these trips with has done their utmost to get the trip done with as little disruption as possible to our passengers, and although it may not seem the case at the time, we, the crews, are doing our best with the assets available. As noted in a previous thread, we are doing up to a 24 hour day to try and make these trips work if at all possible, and more often than not 'carrying' faults where necessary (and safe to do so).
Please also believe that it is utterly devastating, degrading, boring, tiring, and unsatisfying, to be constantly apologising to people who are trying to get home to snatch their R&R (or for whatever they may be travelling) for the delays and disruptions. Where delays have been numerous/significant I have tried to get to the terminal to brief the pax myself, so that they may get the story from the horses mouth.
As a final note, if anyone does in the future experience problems on board with the way they are being treated, or even if it's just a question, certainly I would be more than happy to answer those questions if you were to bring them to the flight deck.
Cheers, all the best, and sorry,
FB007

[SamCaine]

flyboy,

Thanks for your post. Having been at the receiving end of the movers' worst efforts and passengers ire when I've had to pass on the bad news, I appreciate your efforts. I don't think anyone is attaching blame directly to the crews of the aircraft (jeez, did I actually say that to a crab?). Nearly all the AT crews I have met have been true professionals and I know how they want to get the job done. The finger-pointing is aimed at the people higher up who fail to ensure that the system works. Those who secure their own futures at the expense of the British Armed Forces as a whole.

The ones it is aimed at are the jobsworths, who seem largely to be in the movements train and whose managers at various levels just don't give a toss. It can be a thankless task I'm sure. But, as many crabs on this thread like often like to point out to soldiers; they joined, so lump it or leave. Worse still is the attitude of those at Cyprus, and I have personal experience of this in less pressured times. It is reminiscent of the Bishops Court approach to life in NI, "not my problem".

As someone pointed out earlier, the soldiers who rely on the RAF for transport really don't care about the whys and the wherefores, they just want the RAF to do what the RAF are supposed to do in this case, transport them from A to B. Without nause and without problems. It's a service and as from any service they expect it to work. It doesn't matter to them the reason why things go wrong, just get me home on time with as little hassle as possible.

Most soldiers don't have first hand experience, as Maj Loden did, of the RAF's sharp end. What they almost all see is the abysmal AT trail and the degrading and almost inhuman way they're treated by what they see as "the crabs" on their often debilitating, multi-day journey to where they need to be or home from it. Ask any soldier the bit he or she dreads most about deployments and that will usually be 'the move'. And that comes down to one organisation, go and guess who that is. So, for different and often ill-informed reasons, they still see the RAF (rightly or wrongly) as "utterly, utterly, useless" in this one respect.

I've read the often contemptuous comments here from a lot of the AT fleet about the people they're employed to transport around the world. If one word by an RAF officer/NCO conveys contempt of the Army as a passenger to his subordinates, that will spread to the organisation as a whole. I believe that word has spread RAF-wide, and sadly the movement organisation now takes it gospel: soldiers are beneath contempt and as such it matters not how they're treated. :=

[ZOFO]

Fly007

In reply to your post above, Why should you have to apologise for the severe lack of AT that we have at the moment. I myself have been stuck at various OOA Locations and been told the usual Tri* Broke etc... It aint your fault, In a way I am glad that an MP (WOW) had been caught short on his flight home !! I am hoping that his rants when he gets back to his 100K a year MP office might just help the overstreched AT wing of the RAF at the moment. In all it happens (I remember being stuck at MPA for 3 days and being told that our kit can not be off loaded off the Tri*) So guess what we all just clubbed together and got on with it, Even in MPA there are facilities to use if you look for them. I am sorry but in my day the MP's where all ex Serving HM Forces (Full Time) and some ex Special Forces (SBS) so I am sure they would do like I would think the rest of us and just get on with it!!..... It goes with the Job... It aint our fault its the people that skim a fortune thinking that they run us:ugh: :mad:

Morale of the Story is If it is there it will fly you home, if it aint dont blame the Monkey, blame the Organ Grinder.

There ends rant..... Time for a Beer

[flyboy007]

I know it's not my fault, but unfortunately the "organ grinder" does not seem to be particularly adept, or forthcoming, with said apology. Therefore, as the "monkey" who is customer facing, it falls on me to apologise on behalf of those that won't.

[Pontius Navigator]

I think you could call it organisational pride and organisational apology. A leadership thing even. If the system is cr*p and you get in the habit of blaming someone else then it becomes too easy to pass the buck when it is actually your fault.

"Sorry about that, someone didn't check/plan/think etc"

[Chugalug2]

Where delays have been numerous/significant I have tried to get to the terminal to brief the pax myself, so that they may get the story from the horses mouth.
As a final note, if anyone does in the future experience problems on board with the way they are being treated, or even if it's just a question, certainly I would be more than happy to answer those questions if you were to bring them to the flight deck.
Cheers, all the best, and sorry,
FB007
flyboy, well done, Sir! Instead of it being someone else's job you put yourself out for your pax and told them what you knew and what you expected/ hoped would happen. That impresses them because
a. you could be bothered to do so, ie you care.
b. you almost certainly know more about the situation and the possibilities than the ground staff.
c. you can answer as best you can any queries your pax have, which again you are probably best placed to do.
It is about captaincy, respect and the humble knowledge that the only reason you, the aircraft and the ground staff are there is for those pax (and freight, but don't go talking to that!). I've done AT (MCT in my day) and civvie, and I've ended up in both standing on a table in the terminal, saying sorry, explaining the situation, and what steps are being taken to look after them and get them to where they are bound ASAP. If more captains took a leaf out of your book there would be more understanding and less angry pax. Delays happen, it's how they are dealt with that matters, and any DAMO and his staff should welcome your assistance with open arms.
Chug

[orca]

No slight whatsoever on the crews - they do a great job, however:

The problem isn't that the aircraft breaks, it's the manner in which the result is conveyed (or not) to the passenger. It's not the fact that you have to turn up on time for a flight it's the fact that you have to arrive ludicrously early, to do nothing for hours. It's not the fact that your bags are checked, it's the fact that your belongings aren't treated with respect. It's not the fact that plans are changed, it's the b#ggering about afterwards. It's not the roll calls, it's the 'excuse ranks' when there's three hours until take-off - and no British rank is un-pronounceable. No-one at work today had any problem with the ex-regular Ghurka, now TA officer turned MP who spent his leave in theatre, it all rang true to us. Extra airbuses will cure the delays - a healthy dose of respect and manners should do the rest.

[flyboy007]

Thankyou Chug,

Most times I have done it I have been offered body armour and a helmet! Touch wood, so far I haven't needed it.

All the best

[BEagle]

flyboy 007's corporate apology is extremely generous. The passengers are not expected to know by whom or why they've been delayed - they just want to get from A to B as quickly and comfortably as the AT force can achieve.

And that means that the supporting elements, ASCOT Ops, RAF Movs etc ALL have a part to play. Whether that means polite attitudes to passengers at Akrotiri or whatever, EVERYONE has some responsibility.

My first exposure to 'Movers v Aircrew' was in 1970. I was at Thorney Island on a short visit between university terms and we'd flown from Thorney to Glasgow at low level, then on to Benbecula to pick up some Army guys who we flew down to Lyneham. We parked....then a Plt Off in No.1 uniform and red armband strutted out from the terminal. He imperiously demanded that the aircraft was kneeled to offload our passengers. This, according to the captain, was not normal. With Adolf still waving his arms about, the captain shut both engines down and told the little git to "F*ck off and get some Comet steps!"....

Claiming there weren't any, Adolf sent out a forklift and cage and made our Army passengers get out that way. The captain was apoplectic and submitted a 'route stage report' - a few days later we heard that Adolf had had a no-tea, no biscuits hat-on interview with a grown up!

Later, many years later, I brought some wives and kids back from Akrotiri to Brize one icy cold evening. Inbound we'd passed the usual message to Ops and had requested suitable transport for the passengers. But we were parked down by LSS - and the movers expected wives with kids plus feeding/wiping/pacifying kit to stagger across a cold and icy ASP to the terminal. A large bus turned up....for the crew. We then had a stand off - do I wait for enough wheels for the passengers, do I use the 'crew transport' for the passengers?? In the end I decided that the women and children would use the bus, blokes would walk. And the crew would wait until all the passengers had been looked after.

I was later accosted by the SAMO who asked what my problem had been. In words of half a syllable she was told precisely where her people had failed in their actions.

We always taught AT crews to consider ALL passengers as VIPs. Which is why I had nothing but contempt for so-called 'VIP crews' and their pompous attitudes. Whoever is stuffed into the back of one of the decaying museum pieces which masquerade as the RAF's 21st century air transport fleet should be treated as the most important component of the flight. By ALL involved.

Perhaps R&R should be considered as starting when the passengers reach their home addresses. So, if some piece of decaying scrap iron fails at Akrotiri and the passengers are delayed, it won't be affect their R&R entitlement. For assuredly R&R does not mean eating beans on toast in some scruffy mess annex at the convenience of some bunch of ar$es worried about their shift change times for 36 hours........

[Two's in]

Considering most people's operational tours start and end with RAF Movement staff, there is is a huge opportunity here to portray a positive image of the service that is clearly being wasted. Pity more people aren't like flyboy, and realise these are "customers" and they are by and large being treated in a shabby, unprofessional manner.

DAS fits, broken planes, and crew duty time are all fascinating aspects of moving servicemen and women around the world, but are not something the average mover has any control over. On the other hand, courtesy, politeness, understanding, professionalism, taking time to explain problems, and treating people like you would also like to be treated, those are things you can control as a mover.

If the the comments made by this politician can be treated in such a cavalier way by those who do not feel there is a problem, what chance does some poor squaddie have of getting any respect and service?

[STN Ramp Rat]

I am a civilian ops bod that has strayed into this forum. I know several people who work as ops reps on the civilian aircraft on charter to the US Military. It is interesting to compare and contrast what they tell me about how the US does it and how the UK does it.

The USAF do not operate any dedicated passenger transport aircraft and a majority of troops on deployment will move on civilian aircraft. The business is a significant proportion of the income for airlines concerned and very important to the bottom line. I believe there are laid out contractual standards right down to how much catering there should be, how may films, which magazines should be available. I understand there is a system of penalty notices for failures to perform on time and to the agreed standards. Too many failure notices or a bad on time performance puts them on a last call list. Being on this list is bad news financially so they work very hard to avoid being on it.

The ops staff I know usually seem to know roughly where they are going about a month in advance so it could just be that the tasking office is better prepared than the UK MOD

As the old saying goes what get measured gets managed, I understand there are a lot of people from the USAF measuring so the airlines spend a lot of time managing. The outcome seems to be a lot less chaotic than the tails from this thread.

[SRENNAPS]

Flyboy007, thank you for such a heart filled apology. It does mean a lot to many people who have travelled with RAF AT.
I started my career working on VC10s back in 78. I met many Movers and Aircrew. Some were bad, but most were good, nice friendly people. I then moved into the fast Jet World and spent many an hour riding on VC10s, Hercs and Tristars to just about every country in the world on detachement.
Over the years I have noticed that the attitude of the AT aircrew and supporting movers seems to have got worse. (you did meet a few that still cared).
As our operations around the world increased following GW1 then so did the bad attitude of the AT workforce. Suddenly you felt that you were there to support them and they were the "ONLY" important people in any operation.
For years I went back and fore on detachment to the Gulf and it just got worse and worse.
Many of us on fast jet sqns in RAFG moaned and groaned about delays, plan changes etc, but it was just accepted. Obviously we would finally get home to our wives and moan to them and they moaned to us for getting home late!!!!
However, what really brought home the attitude of AT staff was an incident only a few years ago that I will never forget:
A very well known person from a well known RAFG base was killed in a tragic accident. The funeral was to be held in UK. The RAF were brilliant and a VC10was laid on to take friends (and family) back for the funeral. The VC10 was FULL.
Due to weather problems the VC10 had to land at Leeming and we were all bussed many miles to the funeral. The crew of this VC10 were superb by the way, and could not do enough to help.
During the wake we heard that our VC10 had been tasked with a casievac (cant spell that) so another VC10 on a training job in Scotland was tasked with diverting and picking us up. Well that is where the nightmare started.
To cut a long story short, all of us were treated like Cr@p by this new aircrew. We finally took off and not a paper cup of orange squash was offered to us. Funny old thing but it was getting late and we were told that our airfield was closed and we had to go to Koln. We then had to wait for buses to be despached from our RAFG base. We finally got home at 4 in the morning. Only to find that the airfield had never closed. Just what we all needed afer a very sad funeral.
Needless to say our wives never blamed us after we returned late fom future detachements.
Sadly, many of our AT staff, over the years, do not appear to have provided the customer satisfaction that is expected.
I am sure that letters that appeared in the Bruggen Circuit detailing such complaints still exist somewhere.
The bottom line is that we are all here to do a job and quite often we have to do jobs that might hack us off. The boys in Afgan and Iraq are doing the worse job that any one can think of. They deserve better and they dont want to hear excuses such as "short of airplanes, staff, spares etc. They NEED a smile and a "WE WILL GET YOU HOME WHATEVER!! attitute.
Please forgive my spelling.

[movadinkampa747]

Are you now blaming the AT crews for the problems?

[SRENNAPS]

Are you now blaming the AT crews for the problems?
Are you asking me??
If yes then the answer is no. I am am not blaming individual AT crews. I have met (and worked with) loads. I am blaming the overal attitude that exists in the AT world that they are the only people doing somthing important in the world and everbody else is 2nd. I have seen this when Tonkas have deployed to the Gulf and Chinooks have deployed to Kosovo. The point I am trying to make is that we are all important to get the job done. The AT world is a bit like the MOD - full of self praise for themselves but none for the big pictue.
Sorry but that is how I feel.

[MrBernoulli]

Movers in the Brize terminal are not known for their customer care or telling the truth. Had a broken VC10 one morning (hyd valve stuck) and it was going to be a part change or a frame swap. VC10 already loaded with army bags and weapons (takes movers HOURS) so I'm thinking that a part change might be quicker.

Pass on options to movers to keep pax in picture. In any event, we are likely to go, if a couple of hours late. Short while later find out part may not be in stores so frame swap looms ... ugly. Starting to move crew kit and I decide to go into terminal to tell pax myself. Movers get jittery at my suggestion - "No need sir .... um .... we'll do it." I ignore them, and grab the tannoy mike and give pax a concise picture of the problem and our likely solution. I also remind them of the VC10s age and suggest that if they were still using 40 year old trucks they might have similar issues. Army captain comes up and says thanks as they have been told little by the terminal staff, who had cited ATC as the problem (where do they dream this **** up?).

Shortly thereafter VC10 ground engineer says they've managed to get the original hyd valve to work again. I grab the bull by the horns, tell crew to move kit back to original jet and make another tannoy to the effect that we'll load in a couple of minutes and get outta here. A few weak cheers from the pax and sullen looks from the movers and terminal staff. Tossers.

[vecvechookattack]

Thats because RAF Movers are considered to be a slovenly bunch of unprofessional fat slobs whose sole purpose in life is to place barriers in front of our hard working and brave servicemen.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

I don't believe I am writing this but for once Vecetc as pretty much hit the nail on the head:ugh:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Chugalug2]

It seems to me there is not only an 'us and them' relationship between pax and RAF AT, which is understandable, though it needs tackling at all times, but also between parts of RAF AT which is just not acceptable! This division is not unique to the RAF, or even to the military. It exists in the airlines as well, and is a constant source of irritation to fare paying (in this case) pax. The person most able to ameliorate it is the aircraft captain concerned. The reason why ground staff say nothing, or use phrases like "operational reasons", or simply lie (and has been said blaming ATC as often as not), is that they know nothing themselves. The "loop" is designed to keep the show on the road, involving OPS, Crews and ENGs, in real time and rarely has the time or inclination to issue a running commentary to ground staff/ movers. So if you are a captain involved in such a delay situation, you are in a privileged position, possibly the one person with the clearest overall idea about what the hell is going on. Share it! When you have sent and received the necessary flurry of signals, phone or HF calls, brief the crew, engs etc, then go and talk to the DAMO and or his staff, and agree what to tell/ do with the pax. Offer to have a word with them yourself. I seem to be teaching my Granny to suck eggs, but some of the posts on this thread are very worrying. Aircrew that call Movers Tossers, or vice versa for that matter, are saying more about themselves and their own attitudes than about others. You are all part of RAF plc, and your customers are not impressed by you calling one another names and ignoring them!

[dodgysootie]

What is the attraction of the movements trade anyway? I honestly cant see it attracting any high calibre individuals, perhaps this is the reason we view them as oxygen thieves.

DS

[BEagle]

chugalug, much of what you say is true. However, don't forget that the aircraft captain is often very busy during the management of delays. Is it unreasonable for him/her to delegate passenger liaison to those responsible for looking after the passengers in the 'air terminal'?

Those who lie and blame the cause of the delay on others are utterly reprehensible; I was once told that my delayed passengers would be accommodated in barracks when the inbound flight was so late that there wasn't enough duty time to get them back that day (only 30 min spare on the original schedule and the inbound was well over 90 min late - our task was the usual unreasonably tight max CDT Calgary-Gander-Brize which didn't even allow for adequate turnround time at Gander). However, I hadn't been told the truth - the passengers looked very hacked off the next day, but it was only some days after we'd returned home that the truth made its way out - the movements unit had made them all spend the night on the airport floor. Their brigadier was, understandably, very cross. Fortunately I was backed up totally - and Ascot Ops was given a total savaging by the Stn for being so completely incompetent about sorting out the necessary itinerary change when they knew full well that the flight was late out of Brize. Their alleged officers had done bugger all - it was left to a WO and myself to come up with a sensible plot after we'd waded through the impossibly complex CDT/CRP regulations. When I asked them why they hadn't sent me a 'REVITIN', they claimed that they didn't know the flight had been delayed. "So why do we bother sending you those damn departure messages, then?" was my counter. The outbound captain had cut every corner he could, flown as fast as he could and negotiated every direct routeing he could, but no way could he catch up sufficient time to make my flight itinerary in any way legal. Did Ascot Ops really expect me to turn up at Gander at midnight local and ask for 180 hotel rooms?

The better airlines use their best people in scheduling; my experience of the RAF was that the no-hopers and bad boys who couldn't give a stuff were sent to Ascot Ops. My perception, possibly incorrect of course.

The back-up support to AT operations was woeful in my last few years in the RAF and getting worse. Impossible itineraries which gave no time for the turnround time mandated by Gp engineers, understaffing and overstretch everywhere. I doubt that it's any better now.

I have received a PM from an 'undervalued mover' at the Covert Oxonian Airbase. Not only are the disgusting lavatories still in need of repair, but even the check-in desks are faulty and in need of repair. The movers are forever dealing with people being posted away just as they are getting settled into the job - and are as overstretched as everyone else. When some aged old AT aircraft years past its sell-by date breaks down yet again, they have to try to keep going and look after all the passengers requirements even though they might have been on duty all day - because there's probably no-one else available to take over.

Yet the MoD continues to pour money down the pointless EuropHoon and Nimrod Y2K black holes of defence spending to the total detriment of those poor sods who have to travel in 30-40 year old museum pieces supported by overstretched and under-resourced infrastructure staff - and engineers whose skill with bodge tape is the only thing keeping some of the creaking old wrecks flying.

[Inspector Dreyfuss]

Note this story made the Telegraph today.

Some good may come of it: -

A. By highlighting the advanced age of the AT fleet, which has been knackered for years.
B. Giving some of the movers a kick up the posterior for appalling treatment of pax (the crabs at staff college last year had to fend of all sorts of stick from the other services for catalogues of past incidents).

[serf]

'My overwhelming impression was one of a complete lack of service by the RAF and of what little was provided, was done so merely at the convenience of the RAF with little or no regard for passengers'

Rightly or wrongly, this is what the 'customer' thinks. an opinion shared by all in my purple workplace.

Hopefully things can be improved, not just with the service, but also equipment and workload.

[hellomoto]

Some of you are a disgrace, to your own Trade, the Service and our Country. How dare you tar everyone with the same brush? Despicable.

[The Gorilla]

This kind of crap was going on over four years ago when we used to do the Waddington to Thumrait shuttles Via bus to BZN Via Akrotiri Via Seeb to Thumrait. Arrive knackered to get 12 Hours off go fly a 17 hour day! Cattle on the way to an abattoir get better treatment!

The attitude of the RAF is what the MP Major is getting at and it's been crap for many a year. Don't any one dare blame the equipment because it's 40 years old, this is down to how people don't do their jobs properly and derogation of responsibility by a p*ss poor Officer Cadre.

There will eventually be another defence review, the Air Farce is going to get hammered and it will only have itself to blame for that.
:ugh:

[movadinkampa747]

'My overwhelming impression was one of a complete lack of service by the RAF and of what little was provided, was done so merely at the convenience of the RAF with little or no regard for passengers'
Rightly or wrongly, this is what the 'customer' thinks. an opinion shared by all in my purple workplace.
Hopefully things can be improved, not just with the service, but also equipment and workload.

Well the RAF is utterly utterly useless...... Are you related to Maj Loden or whatever his name is.

[Chugalug2]

chugalug, much of what you say is true. However, don't forget that the aircraft captain is often very busy during the management of delays. Is it unreasonable for him/her to delegate passenger liaison to those responsible for looking after the passengers in the 'air terminal'?
I have received a PM from an 'undervalued mover' at the Covert Oxonian Airbase. Not only are the disgusting lavatories still in need of repair, but even the check-in desks are faulty and in need of repair.
bodge tape is the only thing keeping some of the creaking old wrecks flying.
Beagle, Well of course you are very busy, but in truth how long does it take to get up on a chair/table and say it how it is. If you can't then so be it, but if it is your intention to do so whenever it is possible you will do a great service to your pax. Maybe you could spare a crew member to liaise with the pax. The ALM would seem to be a good choice, after all they are his/her pax instead of being simply the pax!
As to the larger picture of making the whole AT package work as one, I remember a far off time of which we now know little. MRT Sqn Cdrs then had their own first line servicing, ie ground crew, under their command. Naturally the inter squadron rivalry extended to the serviceability of aircraft as well. This led to our boss making one claim too many at a FEAF (this was at Changi) guest night. The next morning, on his orders, the five aircraft on the ramp were in close formation over HQFEAF at 0900 hours! A shocking waste of public money but great for esprit de corps.
A few years later the bean counters scrapped that arrangement and centralised aircraft and engs into an Eng Wing, comprising two squadrons. The two resident flying squadrons at a Secret, but not Top Secret, Wilts base co-opted one Eng Sqn apiece to continue the tradition.
Surely something along these lines could be tried at the Covert Oxonian base? Take the boys and girls up from time to time. Explain your problems and listen to theirs, just talk instead of confronting one another! The pax see it as all one package, so it has to work as that.
As to loos, etc, will they still be decrepit at the next AOC's Inspection? Do they still have AOC's Inspections? Do they still have AOCs? Moan to your boss on behalf of the pax. Submit a Voyage Report on behalf of your pax. Moan to the Staish. If all else fails he gives a deadline and then has the work done out of Public Funds on HSE grounds and shoves the whole thing up the CoC. That's what it's there for, that's what he's there for, and if he doesn't know that a lot of what has been written on this thread is explained!
As to "keeping some of the creaking old wrecks flying", that is just the sort of personal remark that is so unnecessary! :-)

[BEagle]

As to "keeping some of the creaking old wrecks flying", that is just the sort of personal remark that is so unnecessary!

Huh? I was referring to the 30-40 year old aircraft which struggle on to provide the RAF's strategic AT capability.....

[EESDL]

Read the article in the Torygraph with a wry smile - so the Movers weren't just sh1te when dealing with AT crews but with everyone!!!!

Glad I'm out of it, so much inertia, great place to 'holiday' but since when has anybody seriously thought that people went to Cyprus to help serve those tired and buggered-about troops that had to stop there?

A decent AT fleet wouldn't have the need to trouble the Movers' shift patterns and could simply fly the boys and girls home direct.

Not one single topic/gripe/statement in that letter surprised me in the least - very sad state of affairs - not brought about by defence cuts but by poor leadership and senior officers not having the backbone to stand-up for their Service when it counts.

Crying shame.

[oldbeefer]

During 30 years in the RAF as SH aircrew, with the inevitable use of AT, I was quite often appalled at the level of service provided by the movers, and their attitude towards the pax. On one occasion - after the usual lengthy delay at BZN with little update on the situation - I overheard a squaddie ask an RAF WO a simple question only to be met with a torrent of foul mouthed abuse. I remonstrated with the WO, only to be told to foxtrot oscar. I asked his name and subsequebtly wrote to his boss explaining the situation (I was a sqn ldr at the time). I did receive a reply which stated that said WO was a jolly good chap and couldn't pssibly have behaved like that. They stink!

[Chugalug2]

You really have no concept of AT in the RAF have you. What do you think the ALM is doing before flight? The terminal staff are responsible for the pax before they go out to the aircraft so if they are feeding them duff information then they should take it up with the DAMO. That is the Duty Air movements officer if you are unsure of what it means.
Wow I really rattled your cage! If you look at my profile you will see I know little about the "concept of AT in the RAF" of today, and what I have learned from this Forum,Threads and Posts such as yours makes me realise what a different one it is to the one I did know! I am fully aware of how busy an ALM is prior to departure. In my day (MRT) he was there before the drivers airframe supervising the loading, no doubt it is still the same. The theme of this thread is about passenger handling during delays, ie the freight is loaded,the pax boarded, the galley catered, the ships papers received and checked. All set to go, then the thingamajig that has to do with the Air Cond or starting or something packs up. Off load pax, brew a cuppa, review situation, listen to Captain's assessment of delay who then asks you to go to the terminal as he has a lot more signals to exchange. Tell the movers (hey! DAMO still means the same, about the only cryptic initials you guys spout that I do recognise) and keep the pax informed. Unacceptable, outrageous, unprecedented, not my job mate? Maybe the good Major has a point!

[vecvechookattack]

This kind of crap was going on over four years


No it hasn't This has been going on since at least 1982 when RAF movers were discovered opening the mail bags and stealing the contents of the bags.

[Pontius Navigator]

By way of introduction, apart from my role as a member of the House of Commons Defence Select Committee, I am also a serving member of the Territorial Army and it was in this latter role that I travelled through your station on the way back from Kabul on Tuesday 26th September after an eight week operational tour in Afghanistan.

On refelection, I have thought about who wrote this letter. It is clear, from the quote, that the letter was from a Major in the TA to a Wg Cdr in the RAF. Given the introduction, this was not a private letter, nor did it follow the normal chain of command. In a military sense, it was impertinent; accurate may be but impertinent never-the-less.

That he mentioned that he was an MP was an attempt at moral blackmail. If it is correct that the Wg Cdr did not respond, then 'well done, Sir.' I am sure that the Stn Cdr will have taken whatever action he deemed appropriate including I would suspect contacting his superiors as if the Major's letter had been a PQ.

Clearly Lancaster knew what he was doing; at least as an MP I hope he knew.

[serf]

And that, ratty, is the problem - the not my job gov attitude!

[Chugalug2]

Once the pax are offloaded the frame due to a technical snag they become the responsibility of the Movements staff. The ALM will no doubt have told them what the problem is on the PA. Any further delay should be transmitted from Ops to the Pax desk so that the person who's job it is i.e the DAMO will then let them know. If they are not doing this then it is not my fault or problem. As you are aware of crew duty, then you will appreciate that if the delay is going to mean that a new crew is required then the off going ALM is not going to hang around and keep the pax informed? Get real. They are not there to do other peoples jobs.

No one suggested that the ALM should do anything other than walk to the Terminal and update the Ground Staff and Pax about an inevitably changing situation. 5 Minutes max, and only if the captain is unable to do it himself! Your description of the DS solution patently doesn't work. Ops do not transmit info to the Pax Desk, so the movers feel constrained to lie to or ignore YOUR PAX! With respect, maybe you, and others who are like minded, should get real and take a leaf out of flyboy's book above. If Pax are treated with respect they will go along with almost anything. If they are being lied to and treated with contempt in the Terminal, it's your problem whether you like it or not. If they learn not to trust the Ground Staff, what chance of them trusting the Aircrew ten minutes later on a full blown Abandon due to Engine Fire on the runway. You guys have a vested interest to change things ASAP. I should start now!

[jayteeto]

Over 20 years experience of using Brize and Lyneham to get around the globe as both ground and aircrew. Some awful experiences in that time, including a fiasco in washington when a VC10 had to return with an engine problem. Crew left PDQ and a full passenger list were left with a mover to find and send them to a hotel, no bags returned (too difficult), no kit whatsoever and no dollars to spend. The hotel was nice, but our best uniform was not really welcome in the facilities, the shop quickly ran out of toothbrushes etc and I had been in the same kit for a long long time by the time they eventually sorted us out with a flight the next day. The hotel didn't have currency exchange so we paid for every tiny thing with our own credit cards, even cans of coke!! Abandoned springs to mind, I was ashamed to be RAF amongst a majority of army guys.

[BEagle]

".....it is not my fault or problem."

Hand that man an instant E Cat. It b£oody well IS your problem!

[Melchett01]

I wasn't going to post on this thread, but having read more and more tales of mover incompetence, intransegence and down right dishonesty I had to post if nothing else for the sake of my blood pressure :\

In the past tour and a half, I have spent a year in and out of various deserts. Although different countries and different wars, the one common factor were the movers and their attitude that to be frank, if I hadn't handed my rifle in for loading, I would have been close to fixing bayonets and charging through the movements office. During my time in the services I can honestly say that I have never ever met a bunch of people that are so universally reviled; we take the piss out of each other's services, and within services we take the piss out of each others branches / trades. But the one thing that we ALL agree on is that movers are the biggest bunch of oxygen thieves masquerading as Hitler-reincarnate.

I won't waste time describing the many tales of woe experienced over the years, but I will relate the most recent by way of an example. I have recently come back from Afghanistan. On the way out there, my bags were incorrectly loaded in the UK - they were marked up to go to X rather than Y. I only discovered this when I arrived in Kabul and tried to check in (several hours early) for my flight to Y to be told that my name wasn't on any roster and would I wait until everyone else had been checked in and then they would sort it out. I went back an hour later and was told that both my bags and I were booked onto the flight to X. When I told them I was going to Y, the mover behind the desk looked at mem shrugged his shoulders and said I had to speak to the other desk dealing with that flight.

I went to the other desk and explained the situation to the jumped up little mover behind the desk. He was obviously having a difficult war, as without putting down that days newspaper or even looking at me, announced that I would have to come back in a couple of hours to check in for the flight to Y but that my bags were going to X regardless, that nothing could be done and that I was to sort it out at my destination. At that point, my teddy went straight out of the cot and it was only the intervention of the DAMO who promised to find my bags and move them onto the correct pallet (a whole 6 feet to the left of the one they were on) that prevented me from clubbing the jumped up little tosser with my ruggedized laptop.

To the Army and the Navy, all I can say is that I apologise whole heartedly on behalf of the rest of the RAF. Despite jointery, the majority of you rarely see the RAF close up, the only time being when you are unfortunately forced to encounter our movers. It is hardly surprising that you think the rest of us are a complete waste of space when that is the only impression you get of us. If there is any consolation for our sister services - just think you only have to put up with movers when you are trying to get somewhere. We have to put up with them all the time!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

No Beags it's not, you like I do it because we know the baggage crushers lie like a cheap changi watch but ultimately it's not our job.

I am sure Ratty has been taken out of context as I know that most self respecting Herc ALM's will go out of their way to keep the pax in the loop however I can name dispersals at Lyneham where legging it back to the terminal to tell the pax the "truth" is just not a realistic option.

Guys I feel sorry for are the likes of Jayteeeeeeto, someone I know very well who have been let down a by chisseling feckin RAFLO in the circumstances he describes. JT in Washington there is an RAF Mov Officer and SNCO whose main role is to deal with the exact situation you have described. The crew are suposed to leave the unfortunate pax in their capable hands and they are supposed to put you in hotel rooms, pay for you to eat and drink, no alcohol unfortunately, and see that you are not needlessly out of pocket.

There are, if I remeber correctly, 4 RAFLO's for the whole of the US and Canada who live an extremely good life and have fingers in more pie's than you can shake a stick at, bit like the Mover in the Gulf who procures the beer for the Basra det then takes a "nice little earner" from the hard earned money supplied by the in theatre folks. On the whole they do a pretty reasonable job however in my 10 year Herc life I have seldom seen them go out of their way and have regularly experianced the sort of debacle you decribe. Trust me when I say that if the crew were aware of your circumstances I would be very surprised if they had not come to your aid.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Two's in]

So who is actually responsible for the Movements staff? I can't believe the lack of professionalism permeates every level of this Branch, surely somebody, somewhere, gives a stuff? Who is that person and what is their rank?

[SRENNAPS]

Good Lord!!!!!!
You AT people are incredible. What does it take to make you realise that people out there are not happy with the service you provide. You have Pi$$ed off a lot of people in the Army, Navy, TA's, Klingons and worse still your own people - us in the RAF on other Sqns.
You blame anyone and everything for the problems and do not accept any responsibilty at all.
I could list a hundred times you have looked after yourselves and left your customers to fend for themselves: B0L1@CKS I think I will:
Daharan - 10 goes U/S - we spend another night in Kohobar towers. Crew drive to Bahrain for a Pi$$ up.
On the way to Vegas. Tristar crew spend hours arguing with Naafi staff at Bruggen about duty free - result a night in Gateway house at Brize because we lost our slot across the pond.
Leave Al Karsh after 3 month det. 10 suddenly goes US after takeoff and we have to divert to Barhain to get it fixed???? Another 48 hours before I see my wife and kids.
Comong back from Goose Bay - OH OH!!! head winds - we have to divert into Brize. Oh no!! crew out of time - no others available. Night stop in Gateway.
Coming back from Yuma. Land at Brize and suddenly find out that Bruggen has gone black. One of our Jockies gets on the phone to Bruggen ATC and they say "we are still open". No response from tristar aircrew - another night in the Gateway.
Me, Jengo and another engineman trying to fix a jet in Deci. We got the jet away but could the 10 wait for us - no way it poked off to Bruggen without us. 5 more days in Deci before a Herc took us home.
Det in Turkey. Crew running out of time. They decide that they cant land at the base we are going to, so land in Ankara. Result we are finally bussed to our base 40 miles away while the crew pop to a nice hotel.
Arkansa USA, advance party. Problems with some kit. We are held by the yanks. Where are the 10 crew?? Holiday inn in Little Rock.
Deci - aircraft gone to Cags airport - get on buses quick. Several times this happened.
Ali Al - Tristar lands at Kuwait Int airport - late arriving - another night in Ali - aircrew in hotels in Kuwait.
Dahrhan days. Tonka has a donk change in Al Jaber. Herc crew dump replacement enging off in Kuwait Int and spend night in hotel. Next day they fly off back to UK. How the hell are we supose to get an RB199 from Kuwait to Al Jaber.
The list could go on and on. I am really amazed that nobody seems to have picked up on the fact that VC10s, Tristars and (not so many) Hercs only seem to go U/S in nice places.
Movers and Departure lounge staff next.:
Why the hell do we have to be at the terminal 4 hours before take off.
Why does it take so long to unload our bags - sometimes upto 2 hours.
When we use to come back from the Gulf after 3 months away why did you (and the RAF police) make it so difficult before we could get through the gate and cuddle our family. Bruggen had great big glass windows and you could see the young kids crying because they could see their dad but could not get to them!!!!
All of what I have said happened in the past. I, sadly, dont think much has changed in the attitude of AT aircrew or movers.
The difference now of course is that we are bringing home troops that are really AT WAR!!!!!!

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Don't forget the superb facilities offered at our premier transport base for overnight accomodation in case of a delay.

Thinly disguised as hotels. The Gateway.:p

[Chugalug2]

ABIW, I know that you addressed your post to Beags, but please excuse me if I pick up some of your points.
"Its not my job" is an attitude of mind rather than a statement of fact. Of course when you disembark pax into the care(sic) of the DAMO, they become his responsibility. If you can trust him/her to discharge that responsibility to the full, fine. If you cannot, then you have a vested interest to keep an eye on how they are being cared for, just as if you had diverted to somewhere without any RAF presence whatsoever. If for no other reason this is in your own (as a crew) self interest. As you say that this is what you do, then hopefully we agree that it is a good thing.
As the one who was the target of and the responder to Ratty's first two posts how did I take him out of context? On the contrary I was responding to his spirited go at me. Fair enough but the words pot and kettle come to mind!
Now we are adding RAFLOs to the names in our little black book, Pike! Pretty soon its going to contain everyone except thee and me, and I'm not so sure about thee! So let's agree that Pax handling in the RAF leaves a lot to be desired for myriad reasons, but principally down to plain old attitude. Well, that's an RAF problem, and when it's happening to YOUR PAX it's your problem as Beags says. Start setting an example, and who knows it might just catch on, and even if it doesn't at least your pax will have been better treated!

[ChezTanker]

SRENNAPS,
Like all things - a little knowledge is dangerous. Once you fully understand the limitations and regulations crews work under to safely transport you to your destination then by all means pontificate.:ugh:

[SRENNAPS]

SRENNAPS,
Like all things - a little knowledge is dangerous. Once you fully understand the limitations and regulations crews work under to safely transport you to your destination then by all means pontificate.:ugh:


Yea right - give me a break!

I think most of us understand the regs - and when they are being abused.

[serf]

Did the CAS travel to Indra Danush via RAF AT?

If so he will have seen the problem first hand, and it will be immediately rectified. I'm sure he will have been handled in the same manner as every other pax.

[ChezTanker]

Yea right - give me a break!

I think most of us understand the regs - and when they are being abused.

And what regs are you familiar with, as a ground technician, that regulates the airborne environment on a passenger ac?

Methinks nowt. But I can spot a chip or two a mile off.:}

Postnote: apologies for repeating the previous - I obviously type slower.

[MReyn24050]

Having read all the posts regarding the RAF AT's performance and having experienced it at first hand IMHO I think that the RAF should be responsible for transporting personnel from the operational area to an airhead outside of the operational area. All AT trooping from that airhead to the UK and vice a versa should be contractorised.

[bakseetblatherer]

I agree with the MP. It is NOT the break downs and stuff which annoyed me (you get well and truly used to that on the F3) but the bl**dy rubbish flow of information and help you get from the ground staff. I don't think I ever had a single trip 'out' or 'back' to anywhere using AT that wasn't a complete pain in the backside. It always starts witht the turning up hours and hours early and just gets worse from there. I know that our jets are rubbish, I know that things are not going to go to plan most of the time but when you are hanging around in BZN for 2 or 3 hours after wheels before the wretched staff there decide to tell you that the a/c is tits and you will not be going on time, the level of annoyance is high. If you have a bunch of pongo's back from 'stan, they are going to be rightly annoyed when treated firstly like children (turning up so early) and latterly like mushrooms!
The RAF movers et al need a wake up. Glad I only fly AirNZ now!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Chug,

I apologise if my thoughts were not that clear however please let me try and clarify and maybe redress a few issues you and a couple of others have.

If we travel anywhere in the world where we have movements support, although why anyone would choose support as the correct adjective to describe movements, once the pax are disembarked we, as crew, are now reliant on said chisselers to carry out their duties as laid down. Pax are extremely rarely accomodated alondside crew for a whole variety of reasons, mainly pax want to party all night while the crew need to get their sleep...............yeah right:E but thems the rules. With that in mind how are we supposed to know when our pax are being fecked about when you are not even in the same post code as us:rolleyes:

On the occasion when we have no movers to hand we, the ALM's take charge and normally produce the goods. Example of that is we used to move folks from the "Staan" via Bucharest and the pax came to the same hotel as us for the night stop. We booked everyone a room, most had to double up but that is a bean counter issue and there is nothing we can do about it, we ensured that everyone got a 3 course evening meal and breakfast, paid room bills, advised on best methods of currency exchange, which taxi's to use and where the good bars were and did our best the following day to provide as good an inflight meal service as Bucharest can provide.

I have gone to McD's in Muscat and ordered 75 Big Mac meaks during a protracted flag stop, served 40 odd pissed up fast jet support crew with pizza on the ramp sat outside the RAFLO's office in Gander, handed out icecreams to Chinook crews and GC's in 29 Palms yadda yadda yadda and I know I am one of many who provide that very basic service.........the upshot is that most AT crews are fighting your cause but at some stage we have to hand you over to "the system" and if that lets us both down you have my sincere apologies:(

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[SRENNAPS]

And what regs are you familiar with, as a ground technician, that regulates the airborne environment on a passenger ac?
Methinks nowt. But I can spot a chip or two a mile off.:}
Well mate - that about sums up the attitude that has led to this problem.
Your attitude: You see me as low life that uses your planes. I am glad to see that as a " ground technician" (sooty actualy) you seem to think that we dont know - thats why you try it on!!!!
As for chip on my shoulder. I dont think so. I have spent times in a lot of places around the world. Some were good - best hotels going. Some were bad, tents, holes in the ground and burning crap when it got too much. But it was fun. The only real nightmare was when you finished the job and then got screwed around by people who make a living out of feeling sorry for themselves and blamed everbody else.
So mate - I would look at where the CHIP really IS????

PS. Have you read any other posts around here that seem to echo my words??? Or do you just dismiss those as well????

[Exqcy]

I left the Movs trade several years ago and currently work for a blue chip company. I've watched the mover bashing/winding-up for some time on these forums with little serious interest. However, when I was shown the MP's letter the other day at work I admit I could imagine, with great regret, it all happening as described.
I remember when I joined up in the early 70s the first thing instilled in us was that as a mover we would probably be the only person that someone from the Navy or Army would ever meet and as such should represent the service in the best light......where has it all gone wrong?
I know from working in civvy street that customer service costs, but if you don't give it you won't have a customer.
Yes, the movers in Akronelli were probably under pressure at the time, undermanned and under resourced, and they may be able to provide some sort of reason/excuse as to where it all went wrong. What galls me the most though is the way that on their website they say it is just whingeing ppruners and not worthy of a response. If they cannot face the criticism head on and admit to shortcomings how can they improve.
I know I was a good mover. With a couple of tours on UK Bags under my belt I knew when to make my presence known and when to be quiet and sit at the back of the crew bus.
I spent many enjoyable years in Lincolnshire working for the fast jet boys. Again they were our customers and what ever the SEngO wanted I would try and get, I was there to MCCP them at their Sqn HAS site if they wanted, get them thru EMA with minimal customs etc.
The movements trade must have a high level review, if they need more resources to reduce passenger inconvenience they must have them, if they need more quality leadership it must be provided.
I had a great time as a mover, was proud to be one. Do I feel sorry for them with all this bad press?......I'm not sure

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

SRE,

Totally agree fella, that post was totally out of order:} but you must forgive him.........he's from Brize:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[ChezTanker]

Well mate - that about sums up the attitude that has led to this problem.
Your attitude: You see me as low life that uses your planes. I am glad to see that as a " ground technician" (sooty actualy) you seem to think that we dont know - thats why you try it on!!!!
As for chip on my shoulder. I dont think so. I have spent times in a lot of places around the world. Some were good - best hotels going. Some were bad, tents, holes in the ground and burning crap when it got too much. But it was fun. The only real nightmare was when you finished the job and then got screwed around by people who make a living out of feeling sorry for themselves and blamed everbody else.
So mate - I would look at where the CHIP really IS????

PS. Have you read any other posts around here that seem to echo my words??? Or do you just dismiss those as well????

As an ex-sooty myself I can see a classic barrackroom lawyer. Now back to my statement - what regs?

ABIW - having done 4 tours on the K I am actually more at home where you are.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

"ABIW - having done 4 tours on the K I am actually more at home where you are."

Then you should be ashamed of your comment to SRE:=

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[ChezTanker]

"ABIW - having done 4 tours on the K I am actually more at home where you are."

Then you should be ashamed of your comment to SRE:=

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Sorry Matey:E ,

When somebody jumps on the bandwagon and 'quotes' regs - he is fair game. If he then fails to produce those regs he is a b**ls**t artist. Probably not PC but I get bored with chaps having a go when we work our arses off trying to get themselves and us home. Yes I have been a pax on my own and other fleets when they have gone u/s, including contractorised, and it is a pain.

[SRENNAPS]

As an ex-sooty myself I can see a classic barrackroom lawyer. Now back to my statement - what regs?
Ok, I give up. There is no point.
Abuse of regs may have been a bit strong - but they are certainly used to the advantage of the operator when it suits them.
Dont have a go at me because I have vented off my frusration. I have just said it the way it was. And it appears to be the way it is now.
People are not happy with the AT service provided. And there are just too many excuses.
As for "barrackroom lawyer" well what can I say. That is a cheap shot.
If the AT service is so good - lets have a survey. A 50 question sheet given to the Army Navy and RAF about the service provided - then we will see if I am just a barrackroom lawyer.

[ChezTanker]

SRE:) ,

All you needed to do was state the case. If you actually strip out the times the ac goes u/s then your list gets shorter. If an ac is u/s going past a base then depending on the snag, cos we might have loads of engineering mates there, it would be better than landing somewhere that may take some time to get the spares and eng support to. You must have tried to recover spares from custom houses around the world - it is a pain.

By the way I know diddley squat about modern engineering practices pertinent to your type so why should you know what our regulations are? That is the point - folks have a dig when they do not understand crew rest periods and crew duty days that are in place to safeguard you, the passenger, from harm. Everybody has regs they follow and it is not for all to know each others but to understand that folks, if they are the calibre we foster, will try and go that extra mile or hour to ensure the task is completed as long as it does not compromise the safety of our customer - that is you.

[flyboy007]

SRENNAPS, I have tried to eat some humble pie on this thread wrt the way pax etc are treated when things don't go to plan, but I have to take exception to your latest page of accusations.

I have never been on a jet where I, or anyone on the crew to the best of my knowledge, has manufactured faults etc to stay another night in the hotel. I don't know how to get this through to people, but delays downroute mess me around too, not just our passengers. Yes, perhaps you have been away for some time and want to get home when the jet breaks, and we have only flown in for the night, but you must remember that during the period you have been away at that location, we have probably spent lots of 'one night aways'. Do you honestly believe I have not seen enough of the hotel in Akrotiri, or Calgary or wherever it may be that we break?

Now to move on to the "headwinds, oh oh" ("Comong back from Goose Bay - OH OH!!! head winds - we have to divert into Brize. Oh no!! crew out of time - no others available. Night stop in Gateway".) two points:

1. Headwinds happen. We do not manufacture them so that we can divert to Brize. Do you not think that if we called a div to Brize because of headwinds which weren't there, we would land with far more gas than we needed? This gets noted by the 'auth' and questions would be asked, as inevitably they are on a diversion to ensure it was correct. If we didn't land with lots of spare gas then the Q would be asked why we didn't take more!

2. If this happened as you said, (although I find it odd that such a "lie" would be based on headwinds, when the predominant winds on that route would be tailwinds, therefore making it a particularly bad "lie"), crew duty happens, and lack of crews happens. It's unfortunate, but it does happen.

Basically, I think you are giving us (AT Crews) too much credit for what we can get away with, and not enough credit for being professional. I take my professionalism very flocking seriously, and I do take exception to your sweeping generalising accusations of fraud and foul play.

As stated in a previous post, I (We) endeavour to keep people informed as to what is happening, however if you happen to be on my jet next time we delay somewhere, hows about coming to talk to me if you want more details, instead of making sweeping accusations. I'd be only too happy to provide you the answers, to the best of my ability. I, after all, don't make sweeping accusations about sooties when one of my engines happens to fail; engine failures happen, and I trust you to do your job.

Ps. Yes, the AT system/fleet is ****, and I'm sorry for that. Who knows it better than those of us that get flocked around by delays nearly every single time I go to work, or try to come home. I struggle to believe people think we manufacture more to suit ourselves. There are more than enough genuine delays and break downs wrecking my personal life without making up new ones.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Flyboy.............dooh:rolleyes:

"Yes, perhaps you have been away for some time and want to get home when the jet breaks, and we have only flown in for the night, but you must remember that during the period you have been away at that location, we have probably spent lots of 'one night aways'. Do you honestly believe I have not seen enough of the hotel in Akrotiri, or Calgary or wherever it may be that we break?"

Thats gonna come as a real comfort to the guys who spend up to 6 months at a time away from home...........I can almost hear the tears of sympathy hitting the floor for you missing your creature comforts for more than one night at a time.................not:(

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[SRENNAPS]

I have just mentioned some of my personal experiences. I am not accusing any body of anything. But I assure you they are true incidents. My wife was involved in the funeral trip.
I apologise to you all for any insult but I am not on trial here. I say it the way it was and the way it still seems to be.
I have been in the RAF a long time. There are a lot of good people. But there are also an awful lot of people who are in it for nothing but themselves - too many these days. And they are the ones that are not helping.
Oh and by the way, as a yachtsman I know my weather, I also queried the headwinds on that trip and was looked at rather blankly.

[flyboy007]

Please don't misunderstand me ABIW, I'm not hunting for sympathy nor trying to compare our series of night stops with a 6 month det, but merely trying to point out that a delay also messes me around, therefore i'm not going to manufacture delays so I can have another night in a hotel.

I have nothing but respect and sympathy for those that do 6 months away, and then get messed around when trying to finally get home, however I do take exception to people suggesting I manufacture said delays so that I may spend another night somewhere.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Flyboy,

See that you start out apologising and some tw@t ends up on your case:O Shutting up now:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Chugalug2]

Chug,
If we travel anywhere in the world where we have movements support, although why anyone would choose support as the correct adjective to describe movements, once the pax are disembarked we, as crew, are now reliant on said chisselers to carry out their duties as laid down. Pax are extremely rarely accomodated alondside crew for a whole variety of reasons, mainly pax want to party all night while the crew need to get their sleep...............yeah right:E but thems the rules. With that in mind how are we supposed to know when our pax are being fecked about when you are not even in the same post code as us:rolleyes:

On the occasion when we have no movers to hand we, the ALM's take charge and normally produce the goods. Example of that is we used to move folks from the "Staan" via Bucharest and the pax came to the same hotel as us for the night stop. We booked everyone a room, most had to double up but that is a bean counter issue and there is nothing we can do about it, we ensured that everyone got a 3 course evening meal and breakfast, paid room bills, advised on best methods of currency exchange, which taxi's to use and where the good bars were and did our best the following day to provide as good an inflight meal service as Bucharest can provide.
I have gone to McD's in Muscat and ordered 75 Big Mac meaks during a protracted flag stop, served 40 odd pissed up fast jet support crew with pizza on the ramp sat outside the RAFLO's office in Gander, handed out icecreams to Chinook crews and GC's in 29 Palms yadda yadda yadda and I know I am one of many who provide that very basic service.........the upshot is that most AT crews are fighting your cause but at some stage we have to hand you over to "the system" and if that lets us both down you have my sincere apologies:(
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

ABIW, I only wish I was one of your pax, if for no other reason than I would have shed a few years! It seems from what you say that your pax are a damn sight better off when they are reliant on the crew than on RAF Movements on a stopover!
Your little story above reminds me of being a very young copilot and, as the imprest holder, responsible for accompanying the pax to their hotel, seeing them all accommodated and fed for the night stop, and the bill paid in cash. Only then could I rejoin the crew in our hotel, by which time they were several beers ahead of me! Next morning as soon as the wheels were up, I was off down the back like a Clippie saying "any more fares please" to joining pax. PFC on R&R who can only pay in US dollars? No problem, I'll just start a new sub imprest in that currency! Happy days, and to be fair they were, because we had fun! I'm not so sure that is true today, and I'm not sure why!
Sorry I seem to have drifted, comes with advanced years, now where were we? Oh yes, long walks to terminal, etc. Well the rule is you do what you can. No one can do much more, so if you do what you can for your pax, without it becoming counter productive do it. Try to avoid macho stand offs with ground staffs. You may feel good making some wretched DAMO look small, but he's only going to take it out on the next one in the food chain, who's going to take it out on the pax. Bingo! So let's all lighten up and see if we can simply keep the pax in the loop, and treat them as we would like to be treated ourselves! Simple!
PS the "Cheap Changi Watch" takes me back, haven't heard that one in ages!

[ChezTanker]

ABIW,
Believe it or not but Brize Sqns also spend time away on Dets, we may even have to tap sand out of our boots. I personally enjoy the flying and it fattens the logbook!
I have enjoyed the dubious pleasure of a solar shower bag on more than one det.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Chug,

On the J ALM's have always handled the imprest so your regailing brings a smile to my face..........or is it a grimace, whatever the imprest is often a bundle of fun and long may it continue:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[flyboy007]

ABIW, Lol, yeah, never again. And for the record, I too have sent the loadie down to the subway for 75 feet of sandwich to feed the pax when "the rules" didn't provide for it. (actually, it was 45 feet for the loadie, and 30' for the pax. I'M JOKING, DON'T TEAR STRIPS OFF ME)

SRE, I really do regret that those events ever happened as you describe, however I also do not believe they were all conspiracies to enable aircrew to spend the night at a place of their choosing. What I would suggest is possibly more likely, (and I mean this with all due respect to yourself) is that the reasons for some of the decisions taken, were not properly/effectively conveyed to you. Half of the issues we see on this thread, appear to stem from lack of information flow. Hows about we, as aircrew, make the decision to try and brief pax ourselves when issues occur, thereby eliminating the chinese whispers. Any takers?

[SRENNAPS]

Ok this is just another way of saying your earlier comments on the abuse of regulations. In what way are the regulations being used to the advantage of the crew and what regulations in particular are you refering to.
You know that I have no real idea about the regs we are talking about other than crew duty time. We all have regs to abide to and we all know how we can bend thouse regs when it suits us. So unless you are whiter than white dont go there.

[flyboy007]

Was that a dig at me Ratty?

[SRENNAPS]

ABIW, Lol, yeah, never again. And for the record, I too have sent the loadie down to the subway for 75 feet of sandwich to feed the pax when "the rules" didn't provide for it. (actually, it was 45 feet for the loadie, and 30' for the pax. I'M JOKING, DON'T TEAR STRIPS OFF ME)
SRE, I really do regret that those events ever happened as you describe, however I also do not believe they were all conspiracies to enable aircrew to spend the night at a place of their choosing. What I would suggest is possibly more likely, (and I mean this with all due respect to yourself) is that the reasons for some of the decisions taken, were not properly/effectively conveyed to you. Half of the issues we see on this thread, appear to stem from lack of information flow. Hows about we, as aircrew, make the decision to try and brief pax ourselves when issues occur, thereby eliminating the chinese whispers. Any takers?
I agree. It helps so much. I was actually lucky during my time in the fast jet world in the fact that I knew many people from the AT world from my Brize days. Communication is the way forward - and of course a smile, a good morning and afternoon and a general "hello" helps.
How many people in this forum say "good morning" when they walk to work??

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Ratty,

I take umbrage with your last comments and want immediately the identity of the tw@t who defended the movers...............straight jacket and padded cell for that ar@e right now:E .........and it's not flyboy!!

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[flyboy007]

I can never find my hat, so I have to drive to work! But you're right, it goes a long way.

Ratty, I wasn't apologising for the movers. I was apologising as the customer facing chap, who usually is the one making the decision to delay/divert etc, thereby causing the passengers to be subjected to more poor treatment, and as an ambassador for the AT fleet. Perception is often that it is us, as aircrew, causing the delays. Obviously to you and I it's not, but perception is what is is.

[flyboy007]

Really? Are you trying to wind me up and turn this thread into a slinging match? It was a joke Ratty, have a whiskey.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Right if you two girls are going to go all gay and PC I am off to bed:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induved

[SRENNAPS]

So you are still saying that we bend the rules to bugger the Pax around so we can have another night stop. What precisley are you crew duty regulations? If you are ever a passenger on my aircraft you will receive a good service. I am not about to start apologising for the service you receive from the Movers, unlike some others on this thread.
Ratty1
No I am not!!!!
On the positive side I have had some brill times on AT. Like the time I was stood up on the flight deck with my Vid cam coming into Bermuda/Azores/Alaska.
The time when a Jag Sqn was on board and the got normal white buttie boxes, but I was on board to fix a tonka in Djon france and they treated me like royalty.
The night we completelty trashed a herc to find a Hyd pipe for a tornado and the Loadie turned up at 2 in the morning and tieded the place up.
The day in bermuda when a tristar and herc crew really looked after us!!!!!!
I know what goes on.

[AT Mov]

Have read through this thread and feel the need to comment. Being on duty on the day of this incident at the aircraft's home base, we knew before if left theatre that is was going to be u/s on arrival in Cyprus. We had a eng rep passed from the GE before it left.

Would all aircrew who have told us how good they all are at looking after passengers, care to explain why the pax were only told of the problem after they arrived at AKT. Too busy in the five hours to be the great communicators and people focus types they claim to be?

In the controlling authority we sorted out getting the needed part in place to get the jet home nad back into the plot, and investigated how to recover the pax.

I cannot claim that the staff at AKT did a good job, but can remind you of another fact that has been forgotten. AKT movs staff are in the RAF, they will work for as long as they are told to. The big shift problem there is the civvy fire staff. When we have an aircraft delayed that is going to arrive at AKT after the published opening hours, we have to get PJHQ approval to make the station stay open. This is because we have to PAY from a BUDGET.

In finnishing can I just say in my 20 plus years I have never stolen from baggage, trashed anyones kit, deliberately sent anything to the wrong place or tried to be anything other than polite. This I would say has also applied for the vast majority of the other 850 members of my trade.

However, people here tell us we are all crap and use oxygen that should be for others. Keep telling us that, we might just start to believe you and live up to your expectations. How do you hold such a broad brush?

[Gainesy]

One happy customer, from the USAF site.

I spent three days trying to get from my deployment spot back to the Deid with the US Air Force. I showed up to numerous "showtimes" and had to show social security numbers, orders, PERSCO releases, and tons of other crap. They gave me three days of runaround and still couldn't get me out.

So last night I walk over to the British desk and ask "got any space on your flight out later?" I showed my ID and they handed me a boarding card. I was out in a couple hours.

Screw AMC. I fly RAF now.

to the Brits! Thanks guys.

I'm off to enjoy my three beers now.

[Chugalug2]

So the preceding posts must be the famous banter everyone is using these days. So witty and amusing! Do please have another torpedo sandwich Mr Wilde! And if Nurse can put all the toys back in the pram, we can continue.
Now where were we, oh yes the prologue, and what an appropriate one indeed! "Oh dear", I couldn't have come up with anything more appropriate. Well done Serf, you certainly lifted a lid on this one. The words Cat and Pigeons come to mind! But amidst all the hyperbole from all sides, I feel that there have been some thoughtful posts, but some worrying attitudes also.
The main thing that strikes me is the absence of any posts, to my knowledge, from serving movers. I understand that they have been posting elsewhere, but it would help if someone from amongst them could briefly say how they see this from their perspective without being abused for doing so. Exqcy, as a ex mover, gave us his thoughts on the present state of affairs, so come on boys and girls let's hear from you.

[movadinkampa747]

The main thing that strikes me is the absence of any posts, to my knowledge, from serving movers. I understand that they have been posting elsewhere, but it would help if someone from amongst them could briefly say how they see this from their perspective without being abused for doing so. Exqcy, as a ex mover, gave us his thoughts on the present state of affairs, so come on boys and girls let's hear from you.

Why not read their thoughts for yourself........... They can be found hiding here at RAFMOVS.COM

>>>>>HERE<<<<< (http://www.rafmovs.com/cpgn/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=752#12940)

Oooh update....It would appear even the RN are getting in on the act at Rum Ration (http://www.rumration.co.uk/cpgn2/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1929#31463).

[Uncle Ginsters]

Like several others, i wasn't going to post here, but having read some of the inter-service, inter-trade and inter-stn rants over the past couple of pages - am i the only one that sees them a little hipocritical?

Several posts saying that "the AT fleet" needs to sort its act out as if BZZ and LYN are UK AT plc. WE ALL are AT-RAF-HM Forces (ok, so not quite Unit-Corps-God-Country :} ) at some level, and we are ALL trying to work under the most unprecedented political onslaught on the military in history. Like many here, i have worked with Movers on a daily basis, and to be honest, I do not relish the prospect upon my return to the AT fleet; they do have some of the worst manning levels in the RAF at the moment but at the end of the day "Manners cost nowt".

What i do look forward to though is the challenge of providing the best, safest and most timely service possible within the contstraints that are now strangling the forces as a whole.

By all means rant - that's what Pprune is for :O but please do not turn it into a broadbrush professional attack on fellow servicemen and women ....there is clearly a major problem and hopefully this letter can raise the issue to some form of action/conclusion.

I await the onslaught :ugh:

Uncle G

[Chugalug2]

M747, Thanks for that, and to be fair quite a few of them seem to be taking notice about what has been said here, as well as arrse,rum etc. Maybe the technocrats could organise an inter forum thread one day?

UG Couldn't agree more, discuss but don't damn! My perspective on this is coloured by some 26 years with the airlines. The difference being, of course, that the Pax also pay your wages (in my case the little old lady in 13E!), and everyone is, or should be, aware of that. None the less the only reason we have an AT fleet, squadrons, ENG wings, MAMS, bases, Ops etc etc is because of the Passengers and the Freight. The only reason for the CAT system, TACEVAL, Medicals etc is the Passengers and Freight. They should be central in the mind of everyone in the AT game, wherever or whatever they are.

I remember many, many, years ago an RAF flight safety film called "Frustration" about a Javelin crew (told you it was long ago) ferrying an aircraft down the CENTO route. As the title suggests they were stymied by all and sundry. Mess stewards, Stores... well you get the picture! It all ends in tears in the Gan lagoon IIRC. Perhaps it is time for another such Cecil B deMille production focused on passengers!

[castle_view]

A few observations from the AT trail that returned the majority of the people on Exercise Indra Dhanush.

A Tri* was used to trail 6 F3's back to UK via Al Dhafra and Akrotiri. Why the Tri* could had to go to Abu Dhabi Intl and Rhodes for the night stops is difficult to explain. I believe the Tri* did get back to UK more or less on time which was good news.

The C17 that carried 40ish personnel back to the UK via Al Dhafra, Akrotiri and Leuchars was reliable and the crew tried to accomodate the wishes of the numerous Waddington personnel on board, absolutely no problems with the crew whatsoever. Where there were problems for the crew was that they arrived in India not aware that they were to take pax back to UK, even though all pax had been told a week earlier that we were returning by C17. This may have had a bonus as there were no AT Sy to conduct our check-in at Agra. There were also very few movers on the aircraft too.

When the C17 arrived in Akrotiri, about 1730 local, the crew promptly disappered off (to a hotel?), all pax were loaded into 2 buses and dumped at two transit accomodation blocks. There was no briefing whatsoever on meal arrangements, or even what time we were to be collected the following morning for our onward flight. At no time were any Cyprus personnel anywhere to be seen. As far as I am aware there is still Officers and SNCO's messes in Akrotiri, so why were we given 8-man rooms in transit accomodation so far away from the messes?

The morning of leaving Akrotiri involved us reporting to the terminal 2 1/2 hours before take-off so that we could be checked in by AT Sy and movements, all a bit late really, and why could the Duty Free shop not be opened?

The C17 is capable of flying from India to UK directly, so why was it necessary for two night stops on the way, a waste of fuel, time and money?

Just a few observations, but at least everyone got back to UK more or less on time so we have something to be thankful for.

As for the exercise aircraft, at least two of the F3's never made it to Cyprus, and the E-3D made it back to Waddington on schedule.

Castle

ps, Serf, I am fairly certain that CAS and COS Ops flew to Delhi by civair.

[Mightycrewseven]

I have never been on a jet where I, or anyone on the crew to the best of my knowledge, has manufactured faults etc to stay another night in the hotel.
Red Flag, February this year, Tommy T lands at McCarron to take us home but is subsequently u/s. Somehow, members of the crew happened to have tickets for the Aerosmith concert that just so happened to be on in Vegas that very night - tickets that had sold out a week prior to the concert!
We were stuck for a further 3 days - call me a cynic but something smelled of a very stinky kipper.:=
When we finally did get the nod to return to the UK, the action by the RAFP at McCarron, with regards to bag searching, was appalling - but that's a whole other story! :ugh:
M7 Sends

[movadinkampa747]

Red Flag, February this year, Tommy T lands at McCarron to take us home but is subsequently u/s. Somehow, members of the crew happened to have tickets for the Aerosmith concert that just so happened to be on in Vegas that very night - tickets that had sold out a week prior to the concert!


Blimey what a stroke of luck...........

[Reach]

The C17 is capable of flying from India to UK directly, so why was it necessary for two night stops on the way, a waste of fuel, time and money?


Castle,

What was the cargo weight?
What MTOW do the runway length/strength/departure obstacles at Agra allow?
Do dip clearances allow the most direct route?
What is the wind factor heading west from India?

[Banggearo]

I had not wanted to get involved in this discussion/slanging match as there are no easy answers to the problems involved, with fault lying in many different areas. However, as an AT captain on 2 different fleets (and 2 different airforces) for 14 yrs I feel I have to say something about the number of veiled accusations being bandied around on this thread. The problems being discussed do exist and I accept things must be done to improve the service we offer to our customers, and they are customers and the reason, usually, we are there. However, I am getting pissed off with people making thinly veiled accusations about the actions of crews, effectively amounting to fraud by engineering nightstops in certain locations. In all my time I have never, nor do I know of anyone, falsely declaring an aircraft u/s to gain a nice night somewhere or to b**gg** around the pax. By all means carry on the debate about customer service but IF YOU HAVE EVIDENCE OF A CREW FALSELY DECLARING AN AIRCRAFT U/S THEN REPORT IT TO THE AUTHORITIES, IF NOT THEN SHUT THE F*** UP and get back to discussing the issues at hand rather than slagging people off and making false accusation.
Rant Off :ugh: :ugh:

[ChezTanker]

Banggearo,
Spot on:D . Saves me from typing:ok: . As I have said before - a little knowledge is dangerous:ugh: . As a pax if you are unhappy then report this to the chap nominated as Senior Pax or whatever they call him this week. I wrote a long letter, with issues concerning a contracted flight, that was forwarded to Andover and received a reply that mirrored my concerns in several areas.

[flyboy007]

"A Tri* was used to trail 6 F3's back to UK via Al Dhafra and Akrotiri. Why the Tri* could had to go to Abu Dhabi Intl and Rhodes for the night stops is difficult to explain. I believe the Tri* did get back to UK more or less on time which was good news..."

Reach, well put in response to the above post.

Now for the defence of the Tri*.

Abu Dhabi and Rhodes are uses on middle east trails because they allow more fuel to be lifted, and have the appropriate handling facilities. A Tri* is not a truck; you don't fill the tanks with fuel and drive off into the sunset I'm afraid. CastleView, you really are giving us too much credit for being able to control our own destiny.

As Reach then pointed out re the C17. Are you C17 qualified Castle?ie. Are you qualified to mkae that statement that a C17 can make India-UK direct? I'll hold the rest of my reply until I find out.

The point about spares etc for the chicks is also highly relevant.


Banggearo, Well put Sir. I am trying to get that message across: ie that contrary to popular belief, that we are in general professional!

[Fat Lad]

I am perplexed by the number of people jumping to conclusions on this subject when they are blatantly unaware of all the facts. Two sides to every story, anyone?

The post from one of the characters on the Movers' site makes illuminating reading:

"the aircraft to take them home was chartered with a payload of 14K. When the capt told the movers he would only take 11K"

So around 90 mins before chocks the Movers' realistic plan becomes worthless as they have lost 20% of available payload. A radical solution was borne of necessity. Yes, Charter Coord in DTMA could have been contacted to request them to liaise with the charter company (via the broker), but this would all take time, extending the delay. In my experience some aircraft captains can be rather obstinate, irrespective of the logic placed in front of them! I suggest that Charter Coord will be examining the suitability of using this particular company in the future, but I suspect that they are cheap! I am surprised that the pax were not informed of the reasons necessitating the abrupt change of plan, but as stated above, AKT Movers may have a different recollection of events! I will hasten to add that the alleged attitude of the AKT Mover towards shift change, and the decision to de-segregate the bags, are indefensible. So I assume that all you critics are perfect, and your judgement has never lapsed?

The issue of calls home could easily be solved; however, in the current financial climate who pays? HQ LAND? HQ STC, as it their aircraft that fell over? A decision for the adults and bean counters, certainly not the Movers.

Do any of you honestly think that Movers deliberately attempt to mislead pax by providing inaccurate or incomplete briefs? Aircrew, Engineers, Ops and Movers are all involved in the process, and slick comms between all parties is essential. Chugalug2’s comments at #107 (page 6) provides one of the few glimpses of common sense seen on this thread.

Check-in times are consistently a contentious issue; 4 hrs prior to chocks does appear excessive, but without the full facts (eg availability of transport to move troops to APOD, security implications of moving in daylight etc) I would be reluctant to criticise further. However, the check-in time is not always stipulated by the Movers. Within the last 18 months, a GR4 Sqn was recovering from a North American Ex. As it had been agreed mutually that bags would be checked-in the night prior to departure, the SEngO and FS Eng were offered a 1-hr check-in for all pax; they looked at each other, mumbled something about needing greater time to ensure that all the Techies were accounted for, and stated that a 2-hr check-in would be just fine!

Another anecdote to finish, just to provide evidence that, just occasionally, aircrew do not always play by the rules. When Leeming’s F3 Sqns deployed to N American Exs in the late-90s they were regularly supported by 2 Hercs, and their TRANSOPS always included a flag at Keflavik. Upon arrival in North Yorkshire the crews attempted consistently to shut off (essential) freight, so that they could overfly and proceed direct to Newfoundland. Sound familiar? “Tail” “wag” and “dog” spring to mind!

Yes, if you haven’t guessed by now I am a Movs Officer (Supply Officer with the Movs annotation), and I am bl00dy proud of the hard work and can-do attitude displayed by the vast majority of the Movs Trade! If you are dissatisfied with the standard of service received from Movs Staff then please seek out the chain of command and let them know; attitude readjustment can them commence! After all we are all on the same side….aren’t we?

[Yeller_Gait]

Ratty/Reach,

Regarding a C17 flying back direct to UK from India; one of the plans was for the aircraft (not that the crew were aware) earlier in the week, to fly direct from Delhi to BZN/LEU. Dip clear was not a problem. I would also have thought that the F3 techies would have been on the Tristar, and indeed the only F3 techies on the C17 were not Sqn lineys but OEU guys.

Even if headwinds/ cargo weight etc prevented the aircraft flying direct to UK, two night stops is excessive.

Again, I thank the crew for getting us back on time and for trying to get us back into Waddington, rather than us having to endure the MT journey from BZN.

Y _G

[flyboy007]

Quite right, 2 night stops is excessive, if it was for no reason. If however if they were the "sweeper", then they would follow the trail. I wasn't on that trail so I don't know. What I find staggering, is that people think it's us (the crews) engineering these night stops! Really? C17 and Tri* are valuable assets at the moment, and I can't see the crew being allowed 2 nightstops just for giggles. In fact, the notion is completely laughable. It's hard enough sometimes getting min crew rest!

[Yeller_Gait]

Flyboy,

My point exactly, the Tri* and C17 followed similar routes and timings all the way back. Surely it should have been possible for one of them (C17) to fly a more direct and quicker route back.

As it was, one F3 did not get out of India, and a second was left at Al Dhafra. Not sure how may left Akrotiri.

Y_G

[flyboy007]

I think that is possibly well above my payscale to answer that one. I have long given up trying to fathom the itineries that el taskers come up with.

My only guess is that the C17 had freight which could not be taken on the Tri*, and was needed to sweep. Often the Tri* used on trails are K1 which have no cargo door, therefore the sweeping herc or C17(?) will carry the spares and freight. Just a guess.

[Reach]

Yeller - you obviously have first hand experience of this mission that I don't, and I've never been to Delhi. I asked the questions because they seemed a more likely reason for the stops than crew entertainment. If you or Castle know better then I'll stand corrected.

[jayteeto]

My last post was pages back, but I would like to confirm that my gripe was not with the aircrews. All of my incidents (many many) involved the movements staff. I thought as I got promoted it would get better but the only difference between me being a JT and later a Sqn Ldr was that I got to use a different bar at the gateway. I can't ever remember being treated as a valued customer, always as an inconvenience.
People will always be hacked off if delayed or cancelled, but they get really p***ed off when people lie to them or abandon them. Tell the truth about delays!! Why blame Air Traffic if a jet has gone tech??

[BEagle]

"People will always be hacked off if delayed or cancelled, but they get really p***ed off when people lie to them or abandon them. Tell the truth about delays!! Why blame Air Traffic if a jet has gone tech??"

That virtually sums up most of the previous few pages of posts. Never lie, you will always be caught out - and rightly so too!

The lazy, self-interested TriShaw crew who left an aircraft load of passengers to the pax liasion officer to sort out at some South American airport in the middle of the night typify the worst of the AT world. Little did they know that the pax liaison officer was the new MPA Sqn Ldr Air. Big mistake....BIG! As OC twenty one and sixpence soon found out.

Those of us who had other backgrounds before joining the AT/AAR world always seemed to me to be more interested in looking after our passengers than the dyed-in-the-wool route queens or Dulles dinosaurs. Whether that meant phone-patching Wattisham MT control abeam Dakar to get the fighter mates' bus rolling or whatever, we were always keen to do that bit extra. I don't know whether that's because we'd all suffered ourselves in the past or whether we were basically more interested (and capable) than stereotypical 'truckies', but our pax were always thankful.....

[rudekid]

"People will always be hacked off if delayed or cancelled, but they get really p***ed off when people lie to them or abandon them. Tell the truth about delays!! Why blame Air Traffic if a jet has gone tech??"
That virtually sums up most of the previous few pages of posts. Never lie, you will always be caught out - and rightly so too!
The lazy, self-interested TriShaw crew who left an aircraft load of passengers to the pax liasion officer to sort out at some South American airport in the middle of the night typify the worst of the AT world. Little did they know that the pax liaison officer was the new MPA Sqn Ldr Air. Big mistake....BIG! As OC twenty one and sixpence soon found out.
Those of us who had other backgrounds before joining the AT/AAR world always seemed to me to be more interested in looking after our passengers than the dyed-in-the-wool route queens or Dulles dinosaurs. Whether that meant phone-patching Wattisham MT control abeam Dakar to get the fighter mates' bus rolling or whatever, we were always keen to do that bit extra. I don't know whether that's because we'd all suffered ourselves in the past or whether we were basically more interested (and capable) than stereotypical 'truckies', but our pax were always thankful.....


That's pretty rich from someone who has a reputation of being the biggest dinosaur of the lot.

More interested (and capable) - you pompous old buffoon. :mad:

[BEagle]

Oh really, idiotchild?

If you wish to hurl personal abuse, go ahead. You'll only make yourself look rather pathetic.

Would I sooner have a chopped Valley AFTS Hawk pilot as a co-pilot or some idle, underachieving trucky who never made it that far? Your guess....

[movadinkampa747]

Ding ding in the RED CORNER we have BEagle and in the BLUE CORNER we have........whats your name kid? ah yes Rudekid. Now lets keep this fight clean and no scratching like big girls..

Away you go

[BEagle]

Not biting. In any case, it's probably past idiotchild's bedtime.....

[rudekid]

But impugning the reputation of 75% of the multi-engine flying world because they haven't been to Valley is okay is it?

I just love your supercilious assertion that you were a more thoughtful and interested Captain because you'd flown the Hunter.:ugh:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Now this I AM looking forward to:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[ChezTanker]

Beagle - another name for b125 Bulldog isn't. I seem to remember that beagle company went bust. Not that I am drawing any similarities with the recent thread.;)

[flyboy007]

Lol, Sit back and wait ABIW, it should be a good'un.
And just for the record Beagle, you do sound like a pompous prat, but I can't be bothered to start a inter-aircrew/sqn/type bitchfight over who has more minerals. There are other issues at stake.

[BEagle]

Well, I suppose it is half -term...

For state schools...

Whatever those are.

For your information, Beagle Aviation was placed in receivership in 1969. The manufacturing rights for the Srs B-120 Bulldog were then taken over by Scottish Aviation.

Back to the thread, children?

[movadinkampa747]

Not biting. In any case, it's probably past idiotchild's bedtime.....

Oh come on you big scaredy cat............. If you back down now the girls will start picking on you in the playground.............You did say that all truckies are
idle and underachieving.

[flyboy007]

Well, I suppose it is half -term...
For state schools...
Whatever those are.
For your information, Beagle Aviation was placed in receivership in 1969. The manufacturing rights for the Srs B-120 Bulldog were then taken over by Scottish Aviation.
Back to the thread, children?

And you wonder why people call you pompous? But yes, back to the topic chaps.

PS. Perhaps, (and this is just a theory) your perception of idle under achieving truckies is coloured by the truckie fleet you were on......? Don't tar the rest of us with the same brush. Cheers

[ChezTanker]

Well at least it lifted the mood for a moment!! At least you didn't call yourself a Bassett cos we know how capable they were .... who manufactured them?

[flyboy007]

Lol, indeed it did.

[mayorofgander]

At least Beadle (sp) hasn't mentioned the A330/MRTT/FSTA on this thread yet...:{

Movers...never apologise for them...just their efforts!!!:mad:

MOG

[oldbeefer]

To reiterate - in 30 yrs of using AT, never had a problem with the crews - BUT - what really gripped my ****e was the unbelievable attitude of the movers towards the pax - WITHOUT EXEPTION!

[Chugalug2]

I am perplexed by the number of people jumping to conclusions on this subject when they are blatantly unaware of all the facts. Two sides to every story, anyone?
Yes, if you haven’t guessed by now I am a Movs Officer (Supply Officer with the Movs annotation), and I am bl00dy proud of the hard work and can-do attitude displayed by the vast majority of the Movs Trade! If you are dissatisfied with the standard of service received from Movs Staff then please seek out the chain of command and let them know; attitude readjustment can them commence! After all we are all on the same side….aren’t we?
FL Great maiden post, Sir, and welcome to the lions den! I hope that some of your fellow movers will join you in putting their two penn'eth. I really can't see the use of everyone involved simply posting to their own forums, sort of preaching to the converted! I hope we can all appreciate that, when we don't talk to each other, there are plenty of "knowledgeable" people who will the vacuum! Thus we are told on good authority that crews write their own itineraries. Movers have a perfect knowledge of everything that is happening, and use this to subvert the free flow of AT with an agenda that Goebbels would have admired. Planners produce flow charts for no good reason than their artistic merit, whatever, all utter twaddle, but all because of no information or dis information. Whatever Beags has said elsewhere, he is surely right about one thing. NEVER NEVER LIE TO THE PAX!!! If you are a mover, but are not sure what the situation is, find out. If you are crew and know what the situation is, tell others who don't. This isn't a game of "knowledge is power", it's a game of trust, lose that and you will not regain it easily. So the aim is that every one knows what every one knows. Obviously if the reasons are complex and accumulative then a précis of the scenario is in order. You have the advantage of having, in the main, resilient pax who will put up with anything as long as they are not being lied to, so keep them in the loop and respect them!
Rant over, message ends!

[flyboy007]

Have read through this thread and feel the need to comment. Being on duty on the day of this incident at the aircraft's home base, we knew before if left theatre that is was going to be u/s on arrival in Cyprus. We had a eng rep passed from the GE before it left.
Would all aircrew who have told us how good they all are at looking after passengers, care to explain why the pax were only told of the problem after they arrived at AKT. Too busy in the five hours to be the great communicators and people focus types they claim to be?"

Well, given that I wasn't on that trip, and I am one of the ones who posted that I try to brief the pax myself when possible, then I can't provide you with that answer. If they could've, and it was certain that it was going to be u/s on landing, they should've. I hope this explains. Rest assured that we are all responsible for the flow of information, at appropriate times. The main issue of this thread however does appear to stem from the attitude of those on the ground when the aircraft landed.

FatLad, indeed a good post, however I think many of us, who have on occasion sent up the chain if we have received a less than satis service, find that little, if anything appears to happen. Correct me if i'm wrong, as I said nothing APPEARS to happen. That's obviously not the fault of the guy on the ground, but a fault of the system. eg the routestage. Does it really work??

Chug, you have hit the nail on the head, well done.

All the best,

[Pontius Navigator]

Even the Airlines get it wrong at times and they really do have paying passengers

Yup, years ago BA did it twice going in to Inverness.

Once they were late landing and blamed the RAF. As BEags said, big mistake OC Ops Lossie objected and BA had to apologise. Unfortunately the 100 odd pax would not have got that apology.

Second time they put the jet on the ground at Kinloss. Immediately a vehicle arrived from Dalcross like phoning ahead good boys. OC Ops was then flabergasted as the crew descended, got in the limousine and drove off leaving the aircraft, power off, load of pax on board. "Not our problem old boy, ServisAir (or who ever), crew duty time etc, bye"

A movement team was quickly summoned and some sort of order imposed but of course no transport of baggage handling was possible.

'Nother time at Gatwick - 90 minute flight - baggage 120 minutes from the aircraft. BA couldn't care less. Not paid for another flight with them since.

[Ali Barber]

To try and take some of the flak away fom the movers, why is the RAF Akrotitri holiday camp opening hours (and the infamous Akrotiri window) still such a Holy Grail? I met a guy a few years back who had been OC Ops at Akrotiri when they had binned the "window" and operated all hours. He told me they were manned for 24 hr ops.

So, why do aircraft staging through Akr still have to meet the window requirements, now that it is under "new management". I have seen another nation's airbase that is not scaled for 24 hr ops repeatedly asked to open way beyond its own operating hrs, simply to allow the RAFaircraft to land late, as its arrival time has been dictated by the RAF Akrotiri window.

[Pontius Navigator]

AB, the window, IIRC, came in to being in 1974 after the invasion and run down of Akrotiri. It stopped being manned 24 hrs and NEAF set up the window so that the single shift workers were not, by default, dragged in to 2 or even 3 shifts which would surely have happened.

Isn't inertia and clinging on to a good thing wonderful?

[steamchicken]

Some conclusions: clearly there is a toxic relationship here. In the nature of things, if neither party trusts the other, no amount of "Well, I'm a mover/I'm aircrew and I'm really good, stop picking on me" will help.

There's also a typical failure to understand the supposedly private sector practices the last three governments have been so keen on. Giving public-sector organisations a strict budget to stick to, a business plan, "trading funds", having to pay capital charges back to Treasury etc - it always seems to add up to one thing: we work until the budget is reached, then stop dead.

A real company supplying the government that has contracted to provide something and received payment doesn't have this privilege. If they miscalculated their costs and discover halfway that it's a bad deal, tough. Essentially, AT has contracted to serve the pax - and if it's going to burst the budget, well, shoulda thought of that when you took on the job. Naturally, as fake private sector practices are always imposed to save money, the budget is never sufficient. And because it's possible to walk away from serving the public, the efficiency savings never turn up.

Another point is that there is a classic sign of a sick organisation, which is that doing ordinary routine jobs well requires leadership. Leadership is what you need when things get weird. It shouldn't be necessary to do outstanding things to provide the basic normal job, but clearly it is. Also, no-one seems to be responsible for it.

Suggestions; break down the mover task and hire civilians to run BZZ. Works for Virgin.. Routinise the lot. There is no real need for special personnel and facilities to run a smallish airline, which is what the airbridge is as far as Akrotiri or Dubai. They become necessary down-route in operational theatres and if an airborne operation is planned - which should anyway be colocated with 16AAB at Wattisham.. Appoint one person to be responsible for each trip in all respects.

[greycoat]

Tis a shame that we many pages of anecdotes relating to poor service. It is easy to retreat into the 'well they are not one of us why should we help' mentality but it is also possible to try to help. Perhaps things are better away from the MOBs when the movs and sqn personnel socialise together on dets (I'm thinking Op WARDEN between the GWs when I had the 'privilege' to have MT and Movs as my responsibilty) and favours can be earned and repaid. However, I did feel a bit sorry for the transit pax given the poor facilities, especially the Turdis WC in summer temps. Although on one occasion we had a distress call from a C-130 homeward bound from Georgia or somewhere similar after one of those Open Skies/Wpn inspection trips requesting a toilet stop, preferably porcelain, since the team had developed food poisoning and had filled the on-board facilities. We managed to get them to the food mall but denied all responsibility for their actions thereafter. So we could be human occasionally. Or another time when a VIP 146 dropped in and we made an effort to get the steward to the commissary before it shut for the the day because the following day was one of the 'no fly' days which meant everything shut and his VIP would go hungry. I don't pretend our attitude was perfect but it didn't hurt to put yourself in the other person's shoes occasionally, and in any case we still suffered the same start and finish from LYE or BZN. And I hope that the Comp A system still works as well as it did back then, when it did seem that we could all pull together as a team.

[movadinkampa747]

[QUOTE=greycoat;2924393Or another time when a VIP 146 dropped in and we made an effort to get the steward to the commissary before it shut for the the day because the following day was one of the 'no fly' days which meant everything shut and his VIP would go hungry. [/QUOTE]

Inflight rations from the commisary? tut tut.

[Top Right]

Movers are great at the technical side of getting kit onto aircraft and sorting out the paperwork - but when it comes to customer service and the human interface, things don't change.

Dhahran, Op JURAL, Summer 92. Essential piece of C2 kit for DETCO to get his job done, long overdue from Blighty. Finally due to arrive on single AT arrival of the day (note use of the word single), late afternoon. Proceed to logs area to discover pallets unloaded successfully, AT already departing.

To Movements Officer: "Please can we have our urgent kit that's been overdue".

"No, if we don't go back to the hotel now we'll miss our tea. We'll break down the pallets in the morning"

The Movs team had worked for all of a couple of hours that day waiting on, processing and turning around the single AT - unlike the rest of the det busting a gut to achieve operations. Maybe they could have taken a bigger lunch in anticpation of the AT arriving late in the afternon? Get real.

The taste of the attitude still lingers ..... :ugh:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

"Movers are great at the technical side of getting kit onto aircraft and sorting out the paperwork"........................really, seldom experienced that:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Safety_Helmut]

Movers are great at the technical side of getting kit onto aircraft
Yes, I can well remember the f*ckwit mover out in Cyprus who suggested that he could he build the pallets better if the two large avionics STCs (boxes) marked "THIS WAY UP" on each side were placed on their sides.

S_H

[hobie]

a slight drift .......

a question ...... what Aircraft would have been used for transfering RAF personnel to/from Aden/UK around the mid sixties? ....

What would the route have been? ..... :confused:

mucho gratias in advance ....

[microlight AV8R]

a slight drift .......

a question ...... what Aircraft would have been used for transfering RAF personnel to/from Aden/UK around the mid sixties? ....

What would the route have been? ..... :confused:

mucho gratias in advance ....

Flew out in a civil Britannia if memory is correct. Vividly recall flying back in a BUA VC-10.

[buoy15]

UKMAMS have re-affirmed my belief there is a reason why some mothers eat their young at birth:D

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

The only problem with that is they don't eat the placenta as well............which is the reason you end up with UKMAMS :p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[dionysius]

ABIW......................
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0001MXRLQ.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V1115817939_.jpg


:= :}


Ah well half term finishes soon......

[breakscrew]

Hobie,
It was mainly RAF Beverlys and Britannias, with the odd Hastings thrown in for good measure. :)

[Wader2]

Hobie,
It was mainly RAF Beverlys and Britannias, with the odd Hastings thrown in for good measure. :)

I believe the Comet may also have been on the route as they continued through Gan to Singapore.

The route would have been UK, possibly Malta, Libya, Sudan and into the Red Sea before following the coast to Aden. Not sure where they would have flagged, certainbly the Hastings went through El Adem and then possibly Khartoum.

In the 60s was it normal for the aircraft to slip crews and stream the aircraft down the route?

I have an idea that slipping only really started with the Britannia and the Comet. One time at Gan I do not recall the Comet crews slipping as the hop Aden-Gan-Changi could be done in one duty period. Not so the Brit whose crews used to bitch when the Bomber Command aircon accommodation at Gan was being used by used by Bomber Command.:}

Certainly the slipping practice serves to separate crew and pax.

[Rigex]

Hobie,
It was mainly RAF Beverlys and Britannias, with the odd Hastings thrown in for good measure. :)

I remember seeing Argosys (Argosies?) at El Adem '67 -ish.

[hobie]

Many thanks Guys for the Aden info ..... :ok:

The "Boss" did 12 months down there towards the end of the UK's interest in that part of the world ..... I rem he used to send 10 duty free cigs to my mother a couple of times a week with his letters home ...... one day a letter arrived with lots of tape and a demand from the Postie for a couple of quid's Duty (HMG's Customs and Excise, $$$ bless them) ...... she simply wrote "Return to Sender" !!! ..... and off the letter went back to Aden ...:p

[Wader2]

I remember seeing Argosys (Argosies?) at El Adem '67 -ish.

In all likelihood they would have been 70 Sqn from Akrotiri although there was a Bomber/Transport variant in Aden and they probably did their fair share of root shifting too.

Wonderful machine, looked the part; pity about the armoured freight deck.

[Regie Mental]

According to the Times today the MP has received an apology. Under the headline 'RAF apologises for poor service' it reports that he has received a letter from Adam Ingram 'admitting that "the level of service you received fell far short of what you could rightfully expect."

[Rigex]

Wader,
True enough, the "Whistling Wheelbarrow" wonderous beast. I did a couple of years looking after non - transport, non - bomber ones. Good times.

[muppetofthenorth]

According to the Times today the MP has received an apology. Under the headline 'RAF apologises for poor service' it reports that he has received a letter from Adam Ingram 'admitting that "the level of service you received fell far short of what you could rightfully expect."


Have just seen this also, thought others may wish to see article in full here:Clicky (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2422028.html)

[L1011GE]

You know that I have no real idea about the regs we are talking about other than crew duty time. We all have regs to abide to and we all know how we can bend thouse regs when it suits us. So unless you are whiter than white dont go there.


Srennaps, you are making all techies and especially yourself look like a complete bunch of arses. Please speak for yourself and do not tar us all with your rule bending!.

[movadinkampa747]

Have just seen this also, thought others may wish to see article in full here:Clicky (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2422028.html)


It is good to see Akt movs getting the kicking it needs. Maybe they might raise their game a little.

Although on the movers website they have resorted to blaming the army.

A direct quote "Guys Some very good comments from all above. One other problem we have is as usual a lack of manpower. For example in BSR there are 4 ATLO staff and 1 RAF SAC/CPL on pax. This is because there just isn't the manpower to go round, so we have to farm it out to the Army.":ouch:

Sounds like the usual excuse. It was the other shift.

[Mr C Hinecap]

mova - I don't think that was what was implied by the post you quote. I think the fact that there are 4 to 1 Army Movers to RAF Movers at that location is the point. I didn't get a sniff of 'blame the Army' on that quote at all.

[SRENNAPS]

Srennaps, you are making all techies and especially yourself look like a complete bunch of arses. Please speak for yourself and do not tar us all with your rule bending!.
My apologies L1011GE. I must have got it wrong.

[hellomoto]

mova - I don't think that was what was implied by the post you quote. I think the fact that there are 4 to 1 Army Movers to RAF Movers at that location is the point. I didn't get a sniff of 'blame the Army' on that quote at all.

Well spotted. I have to say if this thread of yours (not you Mr C Hinecap) is supposed to reflect inter service / inter trade / groundcrew/aircrew banter then it's not very funny. I intend to take a print of the entire thread and present it to CAS Support when he meets with us next week. Internet anonymity may be leading to a few ridiculous comments such as the officer who stated that 'had he had his bayonet close to hand, he would have gladly stabbed the mover in front of him!' Some of the puerile rubbish being spouted on here is truly unbelievable. I think we'll be a bit less 'can do', start embracing a few more H & S rules and practically work to rule. We'll see how smoothly the AT fleet runs then shall we? Those of you that genuinely know anything about what movers do, particularly in the more difficult places we operate, ought to pipe up and write something positive for once.

[November4]

It is good to see Akt movs getting the kicking it needs. Maybe they might raise their game a little.
Although on the movers website they have resorted to blaming the army.
A direct quote "Guys Some very good comments from all above. One other problem we have is as usual a lack of manpower. For example in BSR there are 4 ATLO staff and 1 RAF SAC/CPL on pax. This is because there just isn't the manpower to go round, so we have to farm it out to the Army.":ouch:
Sounds like the usual excuse. It was the other shift.


What a surprise - one of the movers posts a message about some of the difficulties they are under and because it doesn't fit into peoples views of the movers it immediatly gets slated.

And someone was asking why they don't post here with thier side of the story. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[TheWizard]

Hows about we, as aircrew, make the decision to try and brief pax ourselves when issues occur, thereby eliminating the chinese whispers. Any takers?

Give it a try, in the SH world we have been doing it for a while now. It really works and people don't give you as much grief as some are reporting on here!!
:ok:

[serf]

Taught them all they know

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJxzDYJ4C3Y

[Bunker Mentality]

Well spotted. I have to say if this thread of yours (not you Mr C Hinecap) is supposed to reflect inter service / inter trade / groundcrew/aircrew banter then it's not very funny. I intend to take a print of the entire thread and present it to CAS Support when he meets with us next week. Internet anonymity may be leading to a few ridiculous comments such as the officer who stated that 'had he had his bayonet close to hand, he would have gladly stabbed the mover in front of him!' Some of the puerile rubbish being spouted on here is truly unbelievable. I think we'll be a bit less 'can do', start embracing a few more H & S rules and practically work to rule. We'll see how smoothly the AT fleet runs then shall we? Those of you that genuinely know anything about what movers do, particularly in the more difficult places we operate, ought to pipe up and write something positive for once.
What a remarkably snooty and stupid post. In the case of the RAF AT and Movements organisation, the perception is the reality. All this defensive stuff telling us we don't undertand your problems just comes across as excuse making. The time for excuses is over. Accept that the system needs to improve and get on with improving it.
And by the way, if you are going to criticise others for being puerile, you should avoid writing things like:
'I think we'll be a bit less 'can do', start embracing a few more H & S rules and practically work to rule. We'll see how smoothly the AT fleet runs then shall we?'
Pot calling the kettle black, or what? :mad: :mad: :mad:
BM

[adrian mole]

Hobie, I know it's a bit late but in answer to your Aden question most of the trooping UK - Khormaksar was done using BUA (British United Airways) VC10 and Britannias on charter. This was in addition to RAF Britannias, Comets and the odd new VC10.
This type of airlift is known as Strategic - The movement of pax, freight and mail between theatres.
Movement from Khormaksar to Kenya, Socotra, Riyadh, Midway, Salalah, Masirah, Muharraq etc used AT aircraft based in Aden which included Beverleys, Argosies, Twin Pinoeers and even a couple of Dakotas.
This type of airlift is known as Tactical - The movement of pax, freight and mail within a theatre.
Obviously use was made also of the new Hercules and Belfast but not on schedules to Aden itself. More info on El Adem too if you want it, I had the misfortune to serve in both locations!

[hellomoto]

What a remarkably snooty and stupid post. In the case of the RAF AT and Movements organisation, the perception is the reality. All this defensive stuff telling us we don't undertand your problems just comes across as excuse making. The time for excuses is over. Accept that the system needs to improve and get on with improving it.
And by the way, if you are going to criticise others for being puerile, you should avoid writing things like:
'I think we'll be a bit less 'can do', start embracing a few more H & S rules and practically work to rule. We'll see how smoothly the AT fleet runs then shall we?'
Pot calling the kettle black, or what? :mad: :mad: :mad:
BM
The perception is the reality......the REALITY is that the SMR stated that we had 25% less manpower than what we need to do our job.

I do accept that the system needs to improve but simply blaming it all on movers when we clearly haven't got anywhere near enough aircraft or manpower to do what's being asked of us is a bit simplistic.

As for 'rules', we just keep working, literally 'til we drop, there's no "don't wake us up, we're in crew rest" for us........ We've never moaned about it before but with so many people blaming us for everything, including crashing our ACHE into aircraft, I'm moaning about it now. :ok:

[November4]

including crashing our ACHE into aircraft, I'm moaning about it now. :ok:

er that's because we (that's the Royal "we" as I am out now) as a trde do crash ACHE into aircraft.

The issue of manpower is one of the biggest factors. When the SMR said there was a requirement for 1200 movers from the exisiting 865. However there was no money to pay for them so the Aux could provide the extra manpower. It was never envisaged that they would have to provide manpower so often and for such a sustained period of time that the trade would run into the problem that once an Aux has been called up so many time in a period of times (don't remember the figures now) that the Aux couldn't be called up again. So now the trade is in the area of needing more manpower but the Aux cannot provide. Hence the techies being trained to stack bags and build pallets, albeit under supervision, at BZZ.

[hellomoto]

Perhaps we crash our ACHE because we're undermanned, overworked and to some extent, because we're there.
We have to operate massive items of machinery within cm's of multi million pound aircraft, there's plenty of trades in the Air Force that arn't required to work with those risks. I do of course accept that we make mistakes, I think everyone does.

[gar170]

The call up terms for the 4624 sqn (oggie movers) is 12 months in 3 yrs that is if a oggie done 12 months that person could not be called up for 2 yrs although they thought it was better to call them up for 6 months at a time which meant some people for 6 months then 12 months latter called up again.
This has been going on since 1999 when we were first called up for Kosavo.But since then there was a compulsory call up for Afghan 2002 then a full sqn call up for GW2.There have been continuous call ups since.
after the SMR came up with the figure of 1200 movers that was when the oggies strength was 300 but i think you will find it to be a lot less now then you have the ones that cannot be called upon.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Perhaps we crash our ACHE because we're undermanned, overworked and to some extent, because we're there.
We have to operate massive items of machinery within cm's of multi million pound aircraft, there's plenty of trades in the Air Force that arn't required to work with those risks. I do of course accept that we make mistakes, I think everyone does.

No, perhaps you drive your ACHE into previously serviceable a/c because your lackadaisical "we know best" approach to operating around a/c breeds a certain amount of contempt.

There are many trades that operate around a/c with ACHE, MHE and many other forms of large vehicle without managing to drive into the things.:ok:

[hellomoto]

So, all these other 'super trades' never have accidents then :confused:

[Wycombe]

GAR170,

Quite right that there has been almost continous mobilisation activity at 4624 since 1999, but that wasn't the first mobilisation for the Sqn.

Approx 120 of us served in 1991 for GW1, although I grant that was too long previous to make any difference in terms of mobilisation "limits". Many of the same people have however now done perhaps 4 or 5 mobilisations - if you have any sort of life or career outside the RAuxAF, there is a good chance it will have been severely impacted or ceased to exist under those conditions.

Who ever thought that we would get to the stage where a Regular Trade simply cannot do the job without it's Reservist Unit - for sure that is the the case now.

On that note, good luck to my mates off to somewhere sandy in the near future :ok:

[bigflyingrob]

Don't you know there's a war on!

[gar170]

Wycombe
Apologise for leaving out GW1 that was the first time that the SQN on a whole was mobilised GW2 was the second Kosavo and Afghan have been low rolling numbers.

bigflyingrob
Yes we are all aware there is a war on and if you look you will see that the people that have committed to the reserves are doing what is expected not only the movers but regt force protection units as well.Which i think is commendable you must remember that when you volunteered to join up you made it your life these people have volunteered to make it a part of theirs.

[GLANZASILVIA]

There are far too many people on this forum that are oblivious to what the job of a mover actually is. Far from being just baggage monkeys, we are also responsible for the check-in of passengers/loading of aircraft/raising all relevent paperwork/trimming the aircraft(to make sure you can even take off!) and this is just scratching the surface! Trying do all these jobs on a stretched manning and on an ageing AT fleet (and when they break guess who's on the front line to take every1's ****?) is a difficult job and I dare any mover basher to step up and try and fill our boots for 1 a/c and see how far you get!

[Twonston Pickle]

This would be from the same GLANZASILVIA that PM'd me having a big problem with rank. Yet another mover citing his/her problems and failing to keep site of the overall big picture; the guys coming back from ops don't want excuses, just good service. It's the least you could provide given their efforts elsewhere.

I have dealt with a number of excellent movers and others who I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire. I don't want to tar all movers with the same brush but, overall, my experiences have been less than positive. The aircrew (I can't believe I'm about to support the 2-wing master race!) have ususally made up for it in humour, communication and professionalism. The problem lies not with the rank and file movers but usually with the SNCO/DAMO cadre who can never be found, rarely brief the pax and should be on hand to motivate their troops when the going gets tough. All too often, the only sight of the DAMO is when they strut their stuff during pax loading, after all the problems have been solved.

By the way, does anyone know what the required rank is for the PRO? I've tried to look at JSP 800 Vol 2 for several days but it does not appear to be available.

[Twonston Pickle]

Perhaps we crash our ACHE because we're undermanned, overworked and to some extent, because we're there.
We have to operate massive items of machinery within cm's of multi million pound aircraft, there's plenty of trades in the Air Force that arn't required to work with those risks. I do of course accept that we make mistakes, I think everyone does.

As an ex-armourer, I frequently drove large vehicles (usually with big bits of kit on it) within cms of Nimrods. I think you'll find that yours and my situation is not unique and that a number of other trades operate in close proximity to expensive airframes. As alluded to already, familiarity breeds contempt; I suggest that when you are tired and over-worked, you do what the rest of the RAF does and take more care. Mistakes do happen but, unfortunately, yours are all too prominent and usually inconvenience hundereds of people. Try to think about their situation before spouting your thin and risible excuses.