Qantas, try doing this... Out-sourced Jobs payback

[ScottyDoo]

QANTAS has defended its decision to sack about 350 Sydney workers and move their jobs offshore, while 60 St George Bank workers in Kogarah yesterday refused to continue training their Indian replacements.

"We care that Qantas is a proud Australian company contributing to national life and promoting Australia around the world," Qantas's chief executive, Geoff Dixon, told its annual general meeting yesterday.
"That is why I want to talk to you about concerns over our decision to outsource some Qantas jobs overseas, including up to 340 information technology jobs."

Mr Dixon said globalisation had been of great benefit to Australia and airlines should be at the forefront of the process.

"In some cases, yes, that means outsourcing jobs … We will not be doing this in order to lose Australian jobs. We will be doing it so that the company overall can preserve and expand them."

He said that Qantas had 37,000 staff, an increase of 17 per cent in six years.

Not all shareholders liked what he was saying. Jack Tilburn, a regular at Sydney annual meetings, said the decision was "rotten, horrible and lousy … . It is not on. I don't want the blood on my dividend cheque."

The NSW secretary of the Australian Services Union, Sally McManus, said the impact of job losses on information technology staff would be devastating. "Some of them have been there 20 years, they have in-depth skills on the Qantas systems, but the skills are not transferable," she said.

Staff at a St George Bank accounts office in Kogarah yesterday voted not to help train a team of IT workers from the Indian outsourcing company that is taking over their jobs.

One staff member, Cathy Samartzis, said it was like being asked to dig your own grave.

"Some people have been here a long time," she said. "They have mortgages and families and kids to feed. It makes me feel sick."

The staff, who were warned last month that they would lose their jobs early next year, were told on Tuesday that they would assist with training the new staff through a buddy system.

[Ultralights]

i wonder when all these Indian workers will wake up and realise their counterparts in Oz, doing the same job, are earning 20 x their wages? we should be sending the unions over to india!:hmm:

sadly a mass strike in India over wages will cripple every other country but india:ugh:

[Disguise Delimit]

I'm sure there is somebody in India to whom we could outsource Mr Dixon's job.

He would probably do a better job and only for $2 an hour!:8

[UPPERLOBE]

The best one is the rumour that one major telecom company was stupid enough to completely outsource all of their major call centres to India only to find themselves held to ransom by some very crafty businessmen. :ok:

[Rich-Fine-Green]

I wonder if GD has tried to use Dell or Microsoft support of late....

or had an annoying phone call in the middle of dinner to inquire about a change of his phone carrier.....

The person on the other end is more likely than not to be in India.

I have nothing against them, nor is it their fault many Western countires are indirectly employing them.

However, the strong accents and cultural differences are going to result in more trouble than it's worth for QF.

The jobs being cut at QF are described as IT.

How long before QF also cut their call centre people?.

Delta, US Air and others have gone this way. Nothing more frustrating than trying to change a US domestic ticket over the phone with someone sitting in Bangalore!. :* :*

[Aussie]

I say we outsource Dixon!!!

Aussie

[Sunfish]

Qantas will spend big money and make some Indians velly velly rich. Then about five years from now they will realise that they have been got at, and start the long and painful process of bringing it in house again.

Of course by then the guilty parties will have decamped much wealthier as a result. I.T. is regarded as a component of their strategic advantage by most smart companies - too important to not be under the direct control of the company because your I.T. plan has to dovetail with your strategic business plan.

All will go swimmingly well for about three years in my experience, during which time the Indian outsourcing company will aggressively encourage Qantas to divest itself of as many I.T. workers as possible, especially anyone with high level design skills. It's called an organisational lobotomy - no one with any brains or I.T. smarts will be left to question the wisdom of the decison or the quality of the goods provided.

At some point after that, one of QF's competitors will unviel a stunning new I.T. platform and website that gives them an edge in the market - allowing customers to preorder music for their Ipods to go with their in flight meals or whatever - you know what I mean.

QF says "Hey I want one too", the outsourcer just stares at them and then takes out a calculator. Qantas now realises that it cannot respond to the marketing challenge posed by their competitors superior I.T. systems, but its too late. Of course they could then go to Accenture, but I think their charges are so big that only governments and Telstra can afford them. So then you appoint a new chief information officer and they have to use a crowbar for the next three years to try and get control of their I.T. strategy back from the outsourcer and the numerous consultants that will by then be involved.

[Taildragger67]

Quite proud that my employer decided some years ago that with everyone else sending jobs to other climes, we could get a competitive advantage by not doing so.

We've just recorded record sales... :ok:

It's not just how it looks to your customers. Once back-office jobs cross the cultural/language rubicon... try getting on the blower to sort a problem out.

Used to be: "Listen, Phil, would you mind just sorting this thronomister lock-nut problem out when you get a sec? One fell off a wing over Five Dock the other day - scared the cr@p out of some bloke - so we need all the maint records for the Boebus A797-500s for the last three years checked." "No worries, is that left or right thronomisters you want, and do you want the results comma-delimited or in a Word doc? I recall we had a similar problem on the -400s a few years back."

Now it's a three-hour conf call to describe what a thronomister is, what part the lock-nut plays and how to download the records and beam them over...
And when they do arrive, it'll be the records for the 797-200s...

[rmm]

An old article but Dell learnt the hard way

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9584_22-5110933.html

[cunninglinguist]

Recently had dealings ( not at all pleasant ) with a telco that uses indian call centres, suffice to say I will never use them again no matter how much cheaper they are, and I will make sure everyone I talk to hears about it.
The pittance of a saving was'nt worth anywhere near the rise in blood pressure.:ugh:

[Mr.Buzzy]

What about the Indian contractors subcontracting to China? It's happening now folks.
Save a fistfull of cash for your kids and teach them about the stockmarket because it is clear that our government places no importance on Aussie jobs and cares only about investor return!
And what about this load of crap:
"In some cases, yes, that means outsourcing jobs … We will not be doing this in order to lose Australian jobs. We will be doing it so that the company overall can preserve and expand them."

What a guy! Thanks Geoff, We're all feeling so much cooler now that the spotlight and crosshairs have passed. For another week anyway!
Too bad that trough is so small.............

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[L1A]

Hi all

Just a quick note coming from an IT engineering job at an Australian airline (resigned two years ago)

Technical Publications for Aircraft Engineers naturally come from Boeing Airbus etc. The publications are updated when required usually on a fortnightly basis on all types of Aircraft parts, not all of the technical publications are updated only when an update is required such as a new wing part etc.

The stringent policy CASA has place on Technical Publication are quite amazing. If a new publication is listed it must be updated ASAP in a certain time frame. The old CD or DVD must be destroyed (and stored) and new CD must be placed in a secure filing cabinet and recorded when it was installed, by whom, what was updated etc (Much more to it, but you get the drift)

I hope that Qantas managers has really thought this one out as Technical Publication are the bible to Aircraft engineers and must be kept up-to-date. Who will be overseeing that publications are updated in India, CASA (I don’t think so).

I feel that if a third party Indian company or whoever understands the importance and implications to if Technical Publications are not up-to-date.

:bored:

You come to your own conclusion.

[Butterfield8]

Rang Motorola about a phone that would work in Japan.
An Indian voice tells me that a tri band will do the trick and then argues with me when i tell him it wont.
Hewlett Packard produces great printers..rang them for a little help regarding establishing a connection via a computer that I have on a LAN.
The bloke I spoke to was,I am sure,the first blokes cousin.He told me HP didnt make that printer any more and he couldnt provide any assistance.
I had just bought the printer that afternoon.
Went back to the store...told the shop assistant ...he laughed saying that it was a common occurrence.He told me what I had to do.
Sent both Motorola and HP emails regarding their unhelpful help centres.
That was 8 months ago...do you think I will get a reply?
Maybe QF will outsource their customer care centre next.
It would be a real treat having a conversation with one of those guys on a wet Saturday afternoon :D

[Riding the Goat]

How many of you have QF (silly you), Rio, BHP, Coles, Telstra (silly you) or any other shares? How many of you would be really annoyed if you got no dividends? The general public puts the pressure on the companies to make money and lots of it, so the CEO will use any short term measures to make sure they meet this commitment for the next reporting period. Hence, GD will send jobs off shore for the short term financial (on paper) gain. He will get paid a nice bonus at the end of the year and be gone by the time the problems start to raise their head.

Have to admire the St George staff that when faced with a similar situation and a requirement to train the new indian staff refused to conduct the training.

At least their union is prepared to stand up and cause a fuss and fight to keep the jobs in australia.

[Mr.Buzzy]

At least their union is prepared to stand up and cause a fuss and fight to keep the jobs in australia.

What is a "union"? I remember reading about them once but I dont think they exist anymore. Is that right?

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[Ultralights]

i am betting that QF sends their call centre work to India before the end of this finacial year.

[speedbirdhouse]

What is a "union"? I remember reading about them once but I dont think they exist anymore. Is that right?
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Don't you remember Mr Buzzy? The Australian voter has spoken.


They actually WANT their lives and the lives of their children to be reduced to being nothing more than a means of production who's value is based on how little they will work for.:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

It's called FLEXIBILITY

[max autobrakes]

Is that "flexibility" in being able to bend over and touch ones toes? :uhoh:

[max autobrakes]

Will sir be purchasing the vaseline this evening or not?
Sorry , can't afford it.
Not since JetStar took over, and havn't they given us all so much choice ?Yeh ,in how many different ways in bending over ,for less and less..:eek:

[fender]

Some of you guys need a reality check.
You almost make me want to say, "go drive a taxi for a few months and get back to me." but I wont....
I earn equal to or more now than I did with my previous airline that collapsed 5 years ago. And I only average about 10hrs per month more than my previous airline 5 years ago. Well go figure!!
Lets see. 10 hours per month. Suits me fine. I love my job.
Go yer hardest now FIG JAMS coz I aint coming back to this stupid ignorant site anymore. FKUK, we are our own worst enemies. peace dudes

[Mr.Buzzy]

How about all pilots show their dissatisfaction with the current bodies and move over to the Transport Workers Union, atleast they have some power

Count me in!

Im tired of being told by my current union that "We suggest you sign this 'cos it's as good as it's gonna get" The same union that sits back and lets unpaid members of a companies pilot body do all the hard bargaining work while the union does f*&K all but collect our membership dollars! When pay and conditions are being negotiated, where are the well trained and well versed negotiators that we are paying for!

Or how many times have you heard this from other pilots? "I'm really only this for the loss of licence protection"

As far as this gem goes:
earn equal to or more now than I did with my previous airline that collapsed 5 years ago. And I only average about 10hrs per month more than my previous airline 5 years ago. Well go figure!!

...................yes, I have "figured"........I "figure"..............5 years ago!.... say no more!

"Would sir fender like another serve of vaseline? Oh no. You're alright jack, shall I f*&k everyone else for you then?"

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[Sunfish]

Goaty, you are right up to a point, managers are there to provide returns to shareholders.

However there is slightly more to it than that, the purpose of management is to maximise long term value of the firm.

Its that emphasis on long term that is missing. Outsourcing will provide a short term profit fix, as will dissing the pilots and treating your staff like crap in support of short term (bonus driven) goals.

To put it another way, ....karma.

[mingalababya]

Outsourcing of IT in general is nothing new. Many government departments have been doing this on a large scale over the years. Other airlines are apparently doing it as well including SQ.

[Sunfish]

I can see it now..........about two years from now........

C; "Hi This is Ross Smith, I want to book a flight to London and a few other places."

QF: "Mr. Smith, what is your frequent flyer number?"

C: "F&*^ed if I know the card went into the briny with me tinny when a Noah took me bait. The other day."

QF: "What?"

C: "I'm the Ross Smith from Wollongong."

QF : "Wollon?."



You get my drift. And if you think I'm being racist, the worst I've had is "customer service" from someone in Atlanta, Georgia that couldn't even speak English, only ebonics.

[Lead Balloon]

Sunfish

Normally I enjoy your posts and have come to the opinion that you care about the things you write. On this occassion of outsourcing commentary, I should think that you and all of those who have made some rather flippant and un-educated remarks think twice.

I commend you all to read "the world is flat" by Thomas Friedman to help explain where I'm coming from.

If we, by that I mean Australian Economy, want to trade and be competitive with the rest of the world whay would we do ANYTHING here that was not location specific, if it cost 10% elsewhere? In these days of skilled labour shortages why are you all crying about it? I'm seriously thinking of going to Mascot and offering all of these people jobs in Canberra, where there are 1500 IT jobs going begging.

Sometimes I read these posts and think that most of the people who post here live in some bubble, where they think the world revolves around them and that the community owes them a living because they learned to fly an aeroplane! What magic protective suit did you all buy when you did your flying training, because I'm sure that the shoemakers union would have wanted to wear it before the punters decided that Chinese made Reeboks were better than Newcastle made ones.

Madness!

Look at the reality of the situation - for the most part the "monkey work" can and should be done in the most efficient (cost and time) manner possible - otherwise the people who own your Company (the Shareholders) will put their money somewhere else.

Rant over.

[Chimbu chuckles]

LB that is all well and good...but you are talking about human beings not cost centers.

The fact is that real wages for mr and mrs average have been going backwards since the early 70s.

Now mr and mrs CEO, politician etc etc have most definately had payrises way out of proportion and HUGE multiples of inflation.

Just how long do you think mr and mrs average will tolerate this scenario?

How long do you think the pollies will support corporate aspirations when they suddenly realise the majority of voters have had enough of being outsourced to the sub continent or made redundant and the next day re employed at a 15% discount?

Nothing concentrates the mind of a politician like the real prospect of 20 years on the opposition bench.

There is a very real limit that I think is being approached. Just how long do you think real wages can go down while the cost of living is going up before something gives in a big way?

[RENURPP]

http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos2602/1/6/89/23/83/2/283238906107_0_ALB.jpg

[Capt Claret]

That's gotta be Wicking! :E The only good thing to come out of the NT News. :yuk:

[RENURPP]

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Whoops, should remove the S as well!

[Sunfish]

With the greatest of respect Lead Balloon, you are missing the point. For a start, when communicating with someone, 90% is visual. So when we are talking on the telephone we are only communicating with 10% effiiciency.

So then remove the colloquialisms, accents, not to mention slang and the efficiency of the communication drops to maybe 5%.

I mean what I say, try discussing the solution to a Windows XP networking problem with someone from the Deep South of the U.S. of A and you will understand what I mean. You have almost no hoipe of resolving the problem, not based on technical competence, but based on ability to communicate (To borrow that famous line from Hud).

So try explaining that you want ticket to Gladstone because you are going diving on Heron Island, but you then want a return not from Gladstone but from Mackay. try explaining that to a person who doesn't know what "Heron Island" means", or what "Diving" means.

You can see the problem in microscosm when ringing "000" and the F%^78ers ask you which state you are ringing from, then ask you for an intersection because they have no f&*^ing idea where you are! A mate of mine recently watched a car run off the road and into a tree. The F^756ers on the phone asked him for the street details, all he knew was that he was on the Prince's Highway next to a certain factory.

To put it another way, lets reverse the situation. How would you think an Australian call centre operator would deal with an Indian caller who asked for a ticket from the city of the Red Fort to the City of Jinnahs tomb? (Assuming there actually is an air service).

[BHMvictim]

Here's what I do when recieving a call from a Dehlimarketer...

"Hello my name is Rahj and I am calling to offer you a most wonderful deal....."

"Rahj! I'll have a butter chicken, beef vindaloo, rice and 2 garlic naans".

.....confuses the hell out of them.

[Traffic]

I'm with Chuckles.

You take enough multipliers out of the economy without taking away an equivalent volume of voting rights and the economic rationalists will get banished into opposition...for a very long time.

Another very important point in this whole debate relates to business risk. It seems the only business risk being accounted for here is the risk to GD's bonus if he doesn't outsource as much as possible to India. What analysis has been done on terrorism turning the IT system to dust? Then there is the corporate lobotomy argument already mentioned.

We are just going to all sit around and watch the 'clever country' become an oxymoron.

Have another glass of vin de loo...cos that is what is being proferred by your good masters.

[separator]

Sunfish,

It was actually "Cool Hand Luke" where there was a 'failure to communicate'.

sep

[The Professor]

“The fact is that real wages for mr and mrs average have been going backwards since the early 70s.”

And yet the salaries of mr and mrs average ozmate are still about 30 times higher than the salaries of mr and mrs average Bangladesh / Vietnam textile worker doing exactly the same job.

“Just how long do you think mr and mrs average will tolerate this scenario?”

Mr and mrs average can refuse to tolerate this situation until they are blue in the face but global capital flows to where the labor is cheap, and the western world aint cheap. mr and mrs average oz are foolish to think they or thier government can stop the outflow of jobs to the third world.

“There is a very real limit that I think is being approached. Just how long do you think real wages can go down while the cost of living is going up before something gives in a big way”

Until mr and mrs average oz are in a similar position to mr and mrs average in the rest of the world, with no clean water, no motor car, no aircon, barely enough income to pay for dinner.

Australians have very little to complain about my friend.

[Chimbu chuckles]

So in your view all the average australian can look forward to is constantly decreasing pay and conditions until they are on a par with the average worker on the sub continent?

What sort of moron are you?

Do you really think the population will shrug their shoulders and accept that? Accept that their houses are now worth 10% of what they paid for them because no one can afford 300k for a house...no one can afford $280/wk rent...no one can afford 6k for a car let alone 40k...no one can afford to fly on VB...of course the banks will be thrilled as people declare bankruptsy and they have to fire sale assetts into a collapsed market.

And all this while the CEOs bank 7 figure bonuses?

You don't detect just a little flaw in that sort of economic rationalism?

[welcome_stranger]

Its funny my phone has caller ID so I know when I get an "Overseas" phone call and ever since I started answering the phone thusly:

me: Hello

them: Hello am I speaking to mr or mrs xyz

me: (putting on a posh british butler type voice) I am sorry the master and mistress are currently in the dungeon preparing the goat to be sacrificed to bealzebub....if you would like to have your name added to the list of supplicants I am sure they would be willing to do so...............

Curiously they hang up and never ring back. I wonder why?:D

[The Professor]

“So in your view all the average australian can look forward to is constantly decreasing pay and conditions”

Yes, I do. Even you said so in your post, remember – “The fact is that real wages for mr and mrs average have been going backwards since the early 70s.”

“What sort of moron are you?”

I don’t know really - what sort are there. What sort are you. We may be the same sort of moron. How odd would that be?

“Do you really think the population will shrug their shoulders and accept that?”

No, I don’t think the population will accept it at all but like the employees of countries such as Argentina, Canada the US and those of the Eurozone, Australian employees will have little say as to the relocation of jobs to cheaper labor markets.
Decreasing pay and more importantly the increase in the flexibility of employees will continue until the market decides that competitiveness has returned to the western world. It has a long, long way to go.

“Curiously they hang up and never ring back. I wonder why?”

Way to go welcome stranger, you really will be making an impact on the globalization of the labor market with that one.

[Kanga767]

I'll have a butter chicken, beef vindaloo, rice and 2 garlic naans".
.....confuses the hell out of them.

That's not surprising since Vindaloo is a southern Indian dish, and the others are, as you correctly suggest, from the Dehli region.

That would be a bit like ordering a Hayes Creek Pie or Adelaide River Barra and chips in Port Augusta. :O

K

[BHMvictim]

That's not surprising since Vindaloo is a southern Indian dish, and the others are, as you correctly suggest, from the Dehli region.
That would be a bit like ordering a Hayes Creek Pie or Adelaide River Barra and chips in Port Augusta. :O
K

Pardon my geographical and culinary ignorance when it comes to India......

...bit like when an Indian marketer phones up pretending to know all about Australia :ok:

[max autobrakes]

Keep em coming.
I have not laughed so hard since I heard the Qantas chief pilot say out loud strutting up the hallway in front of his office "That he was the King
it's good to be King!" :}

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

I have not laughed so hard since ........ out loud strutting up the hallway in front of his office "That he was the King it's good to be King!" Little did he know he was only the lowly Piss-Boy :ok: :}

(Apologies to Mel Brooks)

"Hump or death?"

"Humperdink?"

[Mr.Buzzy]

Aaaaah but the servant waits while the master - ........

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