Creative ideas for maintaining currency

[Desk-pilot]

I am in the unfortunate position so many of you share of needing to maintain currency at my own expense. I'm keen to explore ways of doing this while looking for a flying job while opening up the ability to enjoy flying for pleasure and at least getting some enjoyment from the hard won licence. I'm working back in my original IT field for the time being which gives me a comfortable income - though £120 per hour for a Warrior isn't comfortable even now!

Hiring a club aircraft seems a very expensive exercise with a Warrior costing around £125+ an hour in the SOuth East of England. In addition using a club aircraft imposes big restrictions if you want to hire an aircraft for a whole day or afternoon for a bigger trip. As a result I have been pondering the viability of sharing the acquisition of a modern lightweight composite kitplane such as a Europa or even a microlight or Jabiru etc for £15-£30k. Shared between 4 or 5 people this would presumably mean a £4k-£8k stake but the flying cost would presumably be more like £20 per hour rather than £120. The advantage is that the stake could be sold on at virtually no loss so while the money would have to be raised up front you'd get most of it back eventually.

Has anyone any information or views on this? Have any of you thought of it or are there any reasons why it's a complete no-no?

I was just brainstorming last night and my knowledge of the requirements are at a very early stage - for example I have no idea of the likely hangarage, maintanance and insurance costs of aircraft operated under the 'permit to fly' scheme.

Views?

Desk-pilot

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

DP,

I must admit, I do not know much about the process you are proposing, however, have you thought about offering your services to your local flying school as a positioning pilot? I know that you won't get paid, however, it won't cost you a penny, and it will keep you in the saddle. Before I started instructing I used to do this on a regular basis. It was a lot of fun, and I ended up getting around 30 hours, which was mainly flying singles but on the odd occasion had a trip in the twin.

Just food for thought.

All the best.

[Freebird17]

Some flying hours are more valuable than others. I would aim for Night (if you need it to unfreeze the ATPL) and Instrument time. Kitplanes/microlights are less likely to be suitably equipped that the local Club's PA28.

A number of regular short flights will look better in your logbook than the occasional long trip.

[Superpilot]

Stay away from ventures like that, unless you really do have the money. I've tried to arrange at least 2 similar things in the last several years. The chances of you finding like minded people based at an airfield near yourself who are willing to stump up the cash is very very small. You need to get into a non-capital group share where the a/c is basically owned by one private owner who has set up a limited company and hires his/her plane out at very good rates. He can afford the good rates because he doesn't have the overheads associated with a fixed base club. I myself am a member of one paying a flat £40 a month and then £65/hr for a FADEC PA-28 (1988 model). There are a few groups like this popping up around the South East. Take a look on ukga.com and thehanger.co.uk.

However, I for one am sick and tired of constant drives to the airfield flying an hour at a time. Think of the time and petrol wasted when you do it like this! I also hate 20 year old rust buckets with barely a guage that works right so I plan on doing the remainder of my hour building (another 30) either in Europe (Spain, Greece) or the US where you can get a shiney new C172/DA-40 with glass cockpit for under £70/hr, and a 152 for around £30/hr. So much to do, so many places to go as a pilot why not make something out of it? Granted with this method I will be out of the 'flying loop' for up to 6 months at a time but 6 months isn't considered that bad.

One question I'd like to ask you and others is, how much do you consider is appropriate to put aside for maintaining that flying license each year? I've always said a minimum of £2,000 a year, with an IR/ME etc realistically £4,000. Anyone?

[scroggs]

This has been suggested before - more than once. Every time, we get people who have run aeroplanes saying 'don't do it, it's too expensive', and those who haven't saying 'great idea - let me know when you start' and then disappearing into the woodwork. I can't find any of the relevent threads right now, but if I do I'll merge them in.

I have never heard of anyone doing this successfully (in financial terms). I would be delighted to be proved wrong.

Scroggs

[potkettleblack]

There are the odd "no capital" groups around if you hunt for them as well. You tend to pay a small fee of a few hundred quid to get in, do a checkride and then hire when you need at greatly reduced rates compared to the standard club fare. These groups usually come about as the owner is looking to cover his fixed costs. I know a mate that got into something at Blackbushe that had a couple of archers for rent. I think it is a case of knocking on doors though as they don't seem to get advertised at all from what I can see.

Another option is joining an existing group on a PFA aircraft where the shares are usually much cheaper - say £1-2k and running costs low.

Then there is that well trodden path over the Atlantic. Great for doing bulk hours in a short timescale.

I would tend to stay away from setting up your own group unless you are in it for the long term. Shares take a long time to sell and you will invariably get left having to meet the ongoing costs whilst trying to get out of a group and not being able to fly the thing to boot. There are a load of threads on groups and PFA stuff over in the private flying forum.

[FlyingForFun]

I have been pondering the viability of sharing the acquisition of a modern lightweight composite kitplane such as a Europa I used a Europa for hour-building.

The aircraft I bought into was shared by other PPLs, not necessarily hour-builders. I paid something like £6500 for a 1/6 share in 2002, and flew it for (I think - my memory may be a bit hazy) around £35/hour dry (about £45/hour wet) and £50/month.

In late 2004 I tried to sell my share due to having moved out of the area where the aircraft was based and so not being able to fly it regularly. It took me in excess of 6 months to find a buyer, largely due to the fact that the Europa were experiencing some financial troubles at the time and no one wanted to buy a Europa whilst those troubles were still outstanding. In the end I had to sell for a slight loss, I think I sold for £5500.

A few thoughts on your plan:

First of all, don't try to get together a group of hour-builders if it's a home-built you're looking at, but try to buy into an existing group. The reason is because good, new, home-builts don't come onto the market all that often. Quite understandably, the builders usually like to keep them and fly them themselves. But there are quite a few shares around if you go to the right type of airfield.

You will be expected to help out with maintenance, under the guidance of those in the group who are more experienced (including, probably, the original builder) and the PFA.

As has already been mentioned, no night and no IMC in PFA aircraft, including all home-built. This turned out to be a problem when I got an IMC rating, and found I couldn't use the rating when I had my aircraft booked and the weather was crap, and the only way to stay current on instruments was to hire a C172 from my club, and take with foggles and a safety pilot, regardless of the weather, once a month.

Flying a PFA aircraft will open up a whole new world of fun flying, and you're sure to enjoy it if you go in with your eyes open. If you are just trying to get some cheap flying, you might be a bit disappointed.

Also, consider whether you want to get a tail-dragger checkout. Europas come in three varieties - the monowheel (which mine was), the conventional taildragger (both of the former will require tail-dragger differences training) and the tricycle (which isn't a tail-dragger). My group was quite happy to let new members in with no prior tail-dragger experience, because we used a very experienced Europa instructor/test-pilot to do all our pilot training, and he would teach you everything you needed to know, but other groups might insist on some prior tail-dragger knowledge. If you want to avoid this, stick with the tricycle, although the tail-dragger will certainly improve your handling skills during take-off, landing and taxy!

Hope that's given you a bit of an insight. Let me know if you've got any questions.

FFF
--------------

[crap pilot]

If you can find some like minded people at your local airfield i would suggest you look at this
http://www.aircraftgrouping.com/
He will buy the aircraft and set up the group if he thinks that there is enough demand. I am part of the group that he has set up at Barton and very pleased with it. I fly a brand new C172SP with G1000 glass cockpit for £65 per hour, or a C172R with a lot of equipment for £60ph or an Archer with a Garmin530 for £65ph. It does cost £110 per month which is quite high but there was no capital outlay. Also if something were to go wrong with the aircraft i wouldnt have to pay a penny.

[hobbit1983]

On a slighty different tack - I know a number of Air Cadets, who are keen to fly. They're quite willing to share the cost of cross-country trips, which helps out with the cost. I tell them what I'm doing & why, and they learn as I gain hours.

This often gives half-price hours or better. It also helps me because talking about what I'm doing reinforces my knowledge.

**DISCLAIMER** Not an official Air Cadet activity! Not in any way endorsed by the ACO.

Also - without starting the "can passengers handle the controls" debate again - the cadets don't fly the aircraft at all. Not trying to replace/supplement the AEFs! The aim is to allow them to learn about air navigation/aircraft systems, NOT flight training - as I am not qualified to do that.

[scroggs]

For such an activity, you need to be certain that you are not infringing the limitations of your licence and your insurance. This seems perilously close to commercial activity to me, and, if I were you, I'd get some legal opinion about this before you fall foul of the ANO.

Scroggs

[hobbit1983]

Hang on - thought costsharing was allowed? Isn't it no different than taking friends up, who want to see their local area from the air, and are willing to share the cost?

[scroggs]

Hobbit, I wasn't saying that it's definitely not allowed - just warning people to be sure that it is! After the event is not the time to find that you're not insured...

Taking strangers up for a ride in return for a monetary payment seems to me to be verging on a commercial activity.

Scroggs

[hobbit1983]

Well I had offered to take them flying - they then offered to pay for half the cost! Seemed like a good idea - and since they're air minded young folks I said I'd talk them through what I was doing.

Certainly not my intention to give instruction, but rather the experience, in the same way that I would if say a relative or friend wanted to go for a flight & would contribute to the cost.

Since I'm not recieving renumeration for what I'm doing - just costsharing - I was under the impression it was all ok.

But I will take your advice and re-check before I do anything.

[potkettleblack]

You should do a search in the private flying forums on the topic of flying for reward.

A quick refresher from my Trevor Thom says that you must pay a full share based on the number of people that you take flying and you can't take more than 4 according to the ANO. You also can't advertise for the flight. I wouldn't take this literally to be putting an advert in your paper either. If the CAA got wind that you had a scheme going via word of mouth to share costs in your fliyng then that might fall foul as well. My overall feeling is that the CAA would take a dim view of something that was organised in such a way as to be a scheme for reducing your hour building costs. I remember a thread that was discussed at length by flying lawyer on the topic of flying for reward and I have a vague recollection that it is a highly complex area with the CAA taking a hard view. Have a search for it and if in doubt post in private flying and you will probably get a lot more relevant advice.

[hobbit1983]

Just to make a few things clear:

-It started off with me offering to take some mates up flying.
-These mates are Air Cadets. I used to be one. I know a fair few who I would call mates.
-They offered to pay *PART* of the cost.
-I agreed.
-I said I would show them what I was doing in my role as a PPL. Show, not instruct.
-I checked the regs.
-This seemed fine.
-I asked them if they wanted to fly on a regular basis, as it would help my hour building if I didn't have to pay the full whack.
-They said "That's great, can we fly some cross-countries?"
-I said yep, sounds cool to me.
-I then posted on Pprune, and prehaps didn't make things crystal.

No adverts. No instructional flight. No renumeration - only cost sharing.

As far as I know this is legal. It ain't intended to be a 'scheme'. Sorry for the confusion - it may well have come across as something different.