Ryanair - 4

[Charlie Roy]

plus something instead of MRS-OUD

Marseille - Lübeck replaces Oudja

[VanBosh]

Why have the HHN & MRS routes to Morocco been dropped?

[Faire d'income]

Ryanair have been almost a year on Dublin Cork and have made well over 1,000 landings without one diversion. I wish I could say the same for some of their competitors. The Cork RVR rarely stays below CAT2 limits for very long.

What an interesting post. Probably warrants further investigation but then with the IAA I won't hold my breath. There is an interesting rumour about ORK and a Ryan aircraft doing the rounds though. Anyone heard it?

[larshakan]

Why have the HHN & MRS routes to Morocco been dropped?

The Opein-Skies agreement between the EU and Morocco has not been signed and retified yet. And it is unlikely that it will be in osme time!

[Bearcat]

Ryanair have been almost a year on Dublin Cork and have made well over 1,000 landings without one diversion. I wish I could say the same for some of their competitors. The Cork RVR rarely stays below CAT2 limits for very long.
If only pilots would take on sufficient fuel and hold they'd almost always get in.

what are you trying to imply by saying FR always gets into ORK? :=

[marty12]

Has anyone heard if they are planning to start flights from MSE?

[ryan2000]

Bearcat ,

Ryanair crews and aircraft are CAT2 rated . Their diversion rate is almost negligble as a result. The Cork RVR rarely stays below CAT 2 for very long as poor visibility is caused by low cloudblowing through rather than fog. So if an aircraft has sufficient fuel then there's no problem getting in.

Operating to Cork with pilots and/or aircraft that are not CAT2 inevitably leads to a higher diversion rate ,cancellations and additional expense which is no longer acceptable in the low cost environment of today.

Two major carriers operating to Cork for the last 4 years seldom or never carry out CAT2 approaches and have a far worse diversion rate as a result.

I'm simply paying Ryanair a compliment for their common sense.

[Faire d'income]

Post deleted as I have had a look at some of Ryan2000's previous posts.

Ryan2000 thinks the reason Cork doesn't have Cat III is because FR and EI don't kick up a fuss, nothing about the terrain meaning there will never be automatic landings of course.

A quick look at Bearcats previous posts suggests that Ryan2000 should really avoid lecturing him on Cat II approaches, weather and whatever else he sees from inside his anorak.

[Tom the Tenor]

Right, Faire D'Income, out with it then and enlighten us about the installation and operation of CATIII ILS equipment. If Cork is unable to have a CATIII ILS aid please outline in detail as to why so because. Who knows, your expert opinion may be more impartial than the DAA or IAA whose opinions on the subject I would be a little slow to take at face value.

Historically, Cork must have one of the highest diversion rates of any airport in Ireland and the UK and you would think that everything technically possible would be done to rectify the situation within reason of the cost.

Finally, how many times have you been on the receiving end of diversions from Cork either as a lofty aircrewmember or as a passenger?

And what about the Cork and FR 737 rumor? The sole Cork aircraft at the moment is paying full wallop for all those four daily landings from Dublin and the one from Gatwick. A tidy sum for the cash strapped Cork office of the DAA!

[ryan2000]

I can't see what all the fuss is about. I'm merely commenting on the fact that Ryanair has managed to avoid diverting any of their Dublin Cork flights and all but one of their Gatwick Cork flights for the last twelve months.

I accept that there's an element of luck in this but also it's down to the fact that they are willing and able to carry out CAT2 approches unlike some of their competitors.

Their record in SNN and DUB is also excellent yet no one makes any innuendos about that.

CAT 2 rvr limit at Cork is 300m. Neither Aer Rianta/CAA or IAA has ever said that CAT3 is impossible at Cork. The issue is whether it's worth the Capital cost. The amount of diversions it would prevent is quite small especially as some airlines can't get around to implementing CAT2 approaches.

[Faire d'income]

It has been stated ad nauseum that Cork will never have CAT III unless new technology for the facility is created.

A CAT III approach is achieved using autoland. The autopilots flare using rad alt to measure terrain closure. This only works only:

* with terrain with close to a level gradient on approach
* with a greatly reduced crosswind limit
* a relatively flat runway not one with a hump at the 1000' point
* in the event of none of the above a 20,000' runway

With current technology a Cat III facility will never happen because it would be a complete waste of money as Cork 'fog' is frequently low cloud blowing across the runway at >20 knots. Add to that the fact that any autoland will flare at the hump and subsequently 'float' hopelessly down the short runway at 20' while losing speed at a rate matched only by the crews loss of bodily functions. Drop 40 - 60 tonnes 20' and see what you get.

It is not the fault of the IAA, DAA, CAA, GAA, or anyone else. Blame your local sleeveens who chose the site in the 50s. Cork will continue to pay for that decision.

Ryan2000
but also it's down to the fact that they are willing and able to carry out CAT2 approches unlike some of their competitors.

:ugh: :rolleyes: please spit it out, what are you really trying to say?

[ryan2000]

One airline has a policy of not availing of the CAT 2 facility at Cork.

Another tells the media when questioned that their crews are CAT 2 rated but when Cork's RVR goes below CAT1 they invariably hold and/or divert.

Aer Rianta and the IAA have said in the past that's its down to
economics rather than technical difficulties that has prevented CAT 3 at Cork.

Given that they've only one airbridge and that a parallel taxiway is only a pipe dream, I doubt if we'll see CAT3 even in the distant future.

All part of the "t'will do" culture that has dominated Cork Airport for decades.

[frogone]

This topic has come up in the past. Cork is an intresting airport in the fact that like Bristol is sits high up on a plateau, thus sometimes providing Low Vis Ops and associated RVRs with a howling crosswind.

Take for example a B737NG, it's crosswind limit is 15KTS with autoland, REGARDLESS of CAT II / III autoland, the fact remains the same, 15 knots, not much when you compare it's 35/33 depending if someone bent the wings CAT I.

So even if the difference is 50 feet RA and 100Ms, between CAT II and CAT III, chances are there's a roaring crosswind. Which is NOT the norm in Low Vis Opeartions. Hence I would think ORK think it's not financially viable to upgrade to CAT III.

The autoland system relies on a steady decreasing Radio Alt reading. Going from 50 feet and then hitting a mound givining a reading of 10ft within a second will stuff up the whole autoland sequence, as the Flare kicks in at 27feet RA. Now in Cork on R17 there's a fair olde ditch/slope whatever you want to call it, now I have not gone out and mapped it myself, I could look up the AIP, but on initially glance it does not look very conducive to an autoland.

On a runway in Zurich, there's a metal gantry before the threshold to provide a level surface CAT III ops, probably at some expence too, but that's Zurich, not Cork. Finally if you have a look at Manchester, one of the runways it CAT I and CAT III capable but NOT CAT II, because of a burren, (it's on the Jeppesens).

So in fairness to the people in Cork, I'm sure they have done their homework, and have decided to kick CAT III into touch. I don't subscribe to the point that they are just 'failing to get their finger out'.

My 2 cents.

Irishrover

[ryan2000]

Irish Rover,

You'eve reminded me about the metal gantry. It was also stated some years ago that this would be neccessary at Cork for CAT3 to be installed.

Cork has had an excellent year weather wise so the argument is unlikely to resurfcace unless the big two EI and FR start losing a fortune in diversions. It's ultimately up to them rather than PPrune subscribers to put the pressure on.

[MarkD]

how far would 07/25 have to be extended (westward, obviously) to allow an FR 738 (with/without winglets) to get in/out and avoid crosswinds. Currently 1,310m (4,297ft). It wouldn't need the full 2,133m (6,998ft) of 17/35 would it? Maybe EMAS at the far end in case?

Then, what would it cost to put CAT2 ILS on it and withstand the legal wrath of the houseowners under the flightpath?

[Charlie Roy]

Route map shows route from Hahn to Lübeck!

[VanBosh]

Route map shows route from Hahn to Lübeck!

Dosnt show it the other way though. Reckon it'll be announced today or an error?

[Charlie Roy]

I reckon it's an error.
Although FR still haven't signalled how they will use the capacity freed up from HHN - FEZ (-2-4-6-).

Although I can't see such a stupid frequency working on a Hahn to Lübeck route. Also, that would still leave capacity over for another route.

[en2r]

Ryanair's attempts to drive Aer Arann off the Cork-Dublin route don't seem to be working. They are introducing a seventh daily flight from next week, meaning they now have almost as many flights as they had before Ryanair began operating on the route. I guess passengers like the free newspapers, free coffee, and the flexiblity of 7 flights a day, 3 more than Ryanair.

[the grim repa]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/business/story.jsp?story=715550

[Kestrel_909]

The latest aircraft arrived into Dublin around an hour ago as RYR800B, EI-DPB.

[runawayedge]

If Ryanair are not paying full charges on CRK/DUB at both Dublin and Cork it raises some interesting questions. From the Cork Airport route support scheme it clearly states that an existing route is not a qualifying route if the route has already been served within the previous 12 months at a frequency higher than 2 services per week on a year round basis. So, if FR are not paying full charges at both Dublin and Cork, why? and how is it justified? does it conform with EU legislation? Assuming they are paying full whack, and after the Easy debacle, and the CSA would it not be in the airport's best interest to introduce some sort of measures to protect existing carriers on routes if they are performing rather than allow ridiculous short time competition that may ultimately destroy the route. I understand that competition is healthy, but there are times it is not. Thankfully RE are doing well and seem to be winning out, but were FR to be victorious I can guarantee frequency would be slashed, and who's the loser? the airport, pax and the region. CAA have to realise that there is a limit to what its catchment area will support on any given route!

[Charlie Roy]

Route map shows route from Hahn to Lübeck!

Since the route has disappeared again. Most likely it was an error then.... The routemap still contains a lot of other errors. I wonder if we list them all here, will they also be corrected tomorrow? :}

[The_Bean_Counter]

I suggest you do and wait and see !

[Faire d'income]

how far would 07/25 have to be extended (westward, obviously) to allow an FR 738 (with/without winglets) to get in/out and avoid crosswinds. Currently 1,310m (4,297ft). It wouldn't need the full 2,133m (6,998ft) of 17/35 would it? Maybe EMAS at the far end in case?
Then, what would it cost to put CAT2 ILS on it and withstand the legal wrath of the houseowners under the flightpath?

Now you're talking. It wouldn't actually have to be particularly long given that it would only be required when the wind was strong and westerly. A large headwind component greatly reduces landing distance required. While there is a hill on approach that may need removing the only problem then would be that autoland is prohibited above 20 knots wind in any direction on 319/320/321 and possibly 737s also.

[Buster the Bear]

http://www.businessworld.ie/livenews.htm?a=1569223;s=rollingnews.htm

[anna_list]

I suggest you do and wait and see !

That's a very good idea. Let's give it a try:

Dear Ryanair, the following routes were all dumped at the end of October, but are still showing on your route map. Please could you remove them?

LTN-SNN
LTN-VST
LGW-NOC

[Charlie Roy]

Other errors to add to those of anna_list above:

Shannon
Connection is to Valencia instead of Girona

Girona
Connecting line to Bristol is missing

Charleroi
Connection is to Trieste instead of Venice

[Ryan_EMA]

What about base in Poland?
Any news about it? With expansion on the eastern european market FR should open base soon? I would say the base might be in WRO,KRK or possibly LCJ (only airport in poland which is not owned by gov)

[Charlie Roy]

Hypothesis:
"A couple of months ago Ryanair began thinking already about getting their Summer 2007 schedule online so that they could already start taking bookings, and having that very valuable "longtime-in-advance" cash, and not wanting to lose eager to book customers to competitors. However, the Summer 2007 schedules weren't ready of course. So then they decided to just make a carbon copy of the winter schedule and put that on sale. So people have been booking flights for Easter, May bank holiday weekends, weddings, holidays etc. but now in a few weeks Ryanair are going to release the real schedules, meaning that thousands upon thousands of booked customers will be receiving emails about changes to flight dates and times!

This of course is common practice and one might say entirely unsurprising. However, I am shocked by the extent of it this time. ALL routes have been on sale for Summer since ages already, 50% (?) could have the wrong times, with no sign yet of the real times! :ouch:"

Am I right? :suspect:

[pee]

Obviously Ryanair has some work to do at their web site. One further example. Have you ever tried to get prices of your planned trip from Tampere to DUB and back via your favourite "Find Lowest Fares" page? Well, until last Moday it simply wasn't possible. After selecting TMP you didn't get DUB as an option at all. Only now it finally works (after 2 months of non-existance). Aren't they looking for any improvements on the site?

[Buster the Bear]

http://www.sharecast.com/cgi-bin/sharecast/story.cgi?story_id=932160

[larshakan]

Other errors to add to those of anna_list and Charlie Roy above:

East Midlands:

LNZ instead of SZG
TRN instead of GNB

Liverpool:
LNZ instead of SZG

[cesare.caldi]

New route MAD-CIA?

On find lower fare section appears this new route.
Error of website or will be annonced soon?

[ryan2000]

Ryanair meeting Cork Public reps today to discuss their proposals for the airport.

Should be interesting. ORK-PIK a no brainer.

[VanBosh]

The Latvian airport regulator last night ruled that the 80% discounts on offer to low cost carriers such as Ryanair are in breach of EU rules and must be abolished within 90 Days.

Thats prob what Ryanair have been waiting for to see about the base there. So it looks likely that the next base wont be RIX.

Any idea's on where it will be? 2 more aircraft for DUB to show Aer Lingus shareholders what their future holds? or a deal at ORK?

[eu01]

...or a base in Poland? :rolleyes:

[ryan2000]

Edging towards a deal with Cork if certain conditions can be met. They'll get a far higher yield than at SNN but may have a serious impact on existing carriers.

A difficult one for the CAA and the DAA to decide on but expect significant political pressure on them to do the deal!

[Charlie Roy]

Dear Ryanair, the following routes were all dumped at the end of October, but are still showing on your route map. Please could you remove them?

Wow! All the errors that we mentioned have been corrected ;)

[larshakan]

lEts keep the "good" work up, why are the bases of East Midlands, Madrid, Cork, Marseille and Pisa flashing yellow whereas all other bases are flashing red. :p

[en2r]

Wow! All the errors that we mentioned have been corrected ;)
Someone at Ryanair obviously monitors pprune

[eu01]

Someone at Ryanair obviously monitors ppruneI think it's a very good thing, isn't it? While the FR's feedback system is almost non-existent and "normal" customers' opinions mean little for them, everybody needs some form of survey and sort of validation of their own moves, plans and decisions. Apart from some people VERY malicious towards FR (they certainly may have reasons to act so), you can find many allies on this forum as well. I believe we are able to be constructive, and indeed, some of us even have a vision what Ryanair could be if... (and if, and if)...

[Powerjet1]

The map may be corrected, but errors still remain in many dropdowns!!

[Robertkc]

The Latvian airport regulator last night ruled that the 80% discounts on offer to low cost carriers such as Ryanair are in breach of EU rules and must be abolished within 90 Days.
Good. Why the bl*ody hell does RYA think it should get any discounts? If anything, they should pay higher fees than proper airlines for the people pollution (they're avg pax) that they'll be shipping in. A developing nation like Latvia needs proper route development and feed into hubs to ensure the connectivity that can ensure one-stop access to global destinations. :=

[TwinAisle]

Have to say, that post smelled of snobbery to me!

As regards discounts, RYR like many other airlines, low cost and traditional, attract support in terms of discounts from the airports they serve. Why the bl**dy hell should they? Well, by flying people in, they create jobs, bring customers for the airport shops, bars and restaurants and many other things. This is what markets do - airports want airlines and are prepared to compete with each other - by cutting deals - to get them.

[VanBosh]

Good. Why the bl*ody hell does RYA think it should get any discounts? If anything, they should pay higher fees than proper airlines for the people pollution (they're avg pax) that they'll be shipping in. A developing nation like Latvia needs proper route development and feed into hubs to ensure the connectivity that can ensure one-stop access to global destinations. :=


Why should they get discounts? like anything you get discount when you buy in bulk. The amount of pax they deliver creates jobs in the economy as well as revenue for the airport. these discounts are on offer to all airlines once they guarantee Xmillion pax. They are not specific to Ryanair, although they are the best at getting them and makeing them work.

[anna_list]

Surely we and PPrune too ought to be getting paid for this service?

I noticed the following rogue routes in the 'Find Lowest Fares' section:


MAD - CIA / CIA - MAD (if it's a new route, get on with it and release the flights!)
VST - LTN / LTN - VST (dropped end Oct)
SNN - LBC (dropped Feb 06)
SNN - LTN / LTN - SNN (dropped end Oct)

Any more?

[eidah]

TwinAisle and VAN BOSH totally agree with you they are bringing jobs into region shops etc etc. Also surely good business is about cutting the right deal and getting the best deal they can its called business. The problem is that the other airlines are jealouse of Ryanair and cant compete with them and the only way they can compete is by putting presure on governemnets.
Also if the airlines get a good deal it is passed onto the customer and more people visit the country economies grow. Ryanair`s discounts are good for the passengers, good the airline it atracts more passengers and it is good for the place they fly to as more visitors.

[egnxema]

lEts keep the "good" work up, why are the bases of East Midlands, Madrid, Cork, Marseille and Pisa flashing yellow whereas all other bases are flashing red.

The map now flashes the right colours! :P

Any other updates we need to suggest to Ryanair??:)

[XSBaggage]

I'm sorry but I had to ask. Maybe I am missing something, but surely it is a good thing that somebody from Ryanair obviously monitors this forum?

[egnxema]

I don;t think anyone is disagreeing with you XSB.

[larshakan]

PIK-GNB is pointing towards TRN
PIK-MRS still showing, has not the route been dropped since beginning of nov?!?

[Voldermort]

Hi Larshakan
PIK-GNB operates over the winter with PIK-MRS restarting on Fri 20th April 2007 :ok:

[ryan2000]

Strong rumours that Ryanair have made a firm proposal to expand out of Cork. No firm response as yet from Cork board.

[bmibaby.com]

Good. Why the bl*ody hell does RYA think it should get any discounts? If anything, they should pay higher fees than proper airlines for the people pollution (they're avg pax) that they'll be shipping in. A developing nation like Latvia needs proper route development and feed into hubs to ensure the connectivity that can ensure one-stop access to global destinations. :=

Sorry but what an offensive post. I fly with low-cost airlines and certainly wouldn't consider myself to be a member of the "great unwashed" which you seem to consider the majority of low-cost airline passengers to be. Ryanair like others, provides low cost flights for all types of European citizens, whilst that might include undesirables like the bucket-and-spade-brigade or hen/stag-parties, I'd stress that it isn't the majority of their passengers.

Latvia, like most destinations, needs to have air travel links that bring in an array of passengers for business and leisure as well as providing affordable travel for their own citizens. Who better to do this than Ryanair?




Thread continued at: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=254615