Citation II Type Rating - Difficult?

[VORTIME]

Guys,

For a newly minted 250 CPL/ME/IR - how difficult is the type rating course? What do people fail on? Just a bit worried going from dandering around in a C172 to Citation...

Ta
VT

[unablereqnavperf]

vortime,
At your level of experience every type rating is going to be difficult, but not impossible. Prepare your self well in advance. Practice all the profiles in your head while sitting at home because once you get into the simulator you'll be hanging on for dear life and your ability to learn will be much less than normal. However if your well prepared prior to starting the course you will have every chance of success. Don't rely on being taught basic procedure while your training. Good luck!

[LRdriver II]

But..having said that, a Citation is probably the best jet to start your ratings collection with for a low timer. As soon as you get to grips with the speed differential, the systems aren't too complex and the aircraft handles very docile and easy. Good first-time jet for a newbie, difficult enough to make you work for the rating, but good training platform before moving to faster/heavier bizjets.
Enjoy!

[flap15]

The biggest jump is to get your brain working faster since your speeds are higher. Do not let this worry you since it is not a great leap its just an additional pressure in a new work environment. The Citation is very easy to fly, remember it was originaly designed for a competent but rich PPL to fly single crew. The engine out is very docile, since the engines are very close to the center line and you get minimal swing. Unlike a piston which requires prompt control and drills to secure the engine in a min drag config, with the citation you do nothing but fly the profile until you are climbing away and clear of the hard stuff. Even with an engine fire the worst that will happen is that the pod melts and drops off !! Landing causes a mild problem in that with the very short legs on the wheels you get wing in ground effect and beyond a mid weight your landing distance increases as you reduce your weight further as you float further. With a cross wind you can not cross contol and must crab in due to the short undercarriage otherwise you run the risk of scraping the wing tip. You must push it straight with the rudder at the last possible moment with a little opposite aileron.
I flew the Citation I.II & V and had a great time flying them. Remember preperation outside the cockpit is free, know all that you can before you sit in a seat that will cost you. "Fly" a microsoft flight sim so that you can enter a hold corectly from any direction along with SID's and STAR's so that you can free up as many brain cells as possible to cope with the rest of it.
Good luck
Flap 15

[B200Drvr]

I agree, I know a 350 hr pilot who has past a FAA GIII type rating a few months ago. It just takes dedication and preparation, do as much as you can before going to groundschool, because things go pretty quickly in the classroom. Learn you IA drills and profiles, you are at a bit of a dissadvantage due to your low time, so make sure that you are well prepared, this will level the playing field. Good luck.

[TFE731]

VORTIME

The fact that you have a CPL/ME/IR with only 250hours of flight time indicates that to date almost all your flying has been training and most of it probably quite recently. This will give you quite an advantage over someone who has spent the last few years building time to reach 1000/15000 hours without doing any extra training.
That said it will still be difficult, your first jet always is, so here are a few pointers:
1. Good preparation is vital if you can try to read up on the aircraft before you go.
2. If you haven't flown for a while it is worth getting back up to speed before you go (either with a light twin or even a generic jet sim).
3. On the course don't get burnt out. A lot of information will be thrown at you in a very short space of time. You won't be able to remember it all so try to remember the important bits and just get an understanding of the rest.
4. The quickest way to fail a checkride is to not know your memory items or basic limitations. If you can get hold of a list of these and learn them before you go you will help yourself enormously.
5. When in the air (or sim) don't forget your basic airmanship, it was taught to you for a good reason.
6. Finally some of the other students on the course with more hours than you may try to tell you that your wasting your time trying to get a type rating with your level of experience. Just ignore them there are lots of people who pass type ratings with your level of experience (most in fact).

Good luck and don't forget to have fun

TFE731

[formulaben]

I did my CE 500 type rating with a low time pilot, and to be honest, he did a great job except for a couple moments of information overload. Ironically, his biggest problem was the instructors and the instructional organization! On the first day, in front of the entire class, they acknowledged his "inexperience" and how hard it was going to be for him. It was a sad display of bias against him. I've flown with pilots with 3 times my experience, and you'd never know it. Flight time is not the only criteria of skill. Your performance is based on many factors, but hours (experience) is only a part of the entire equation. My 2 cents:

1) Get the books beforehand and study up.
2) Get some simulator experience, such as a Frasca, at a local flight school if at all possible.
3) Find a local Citation and do some serious "sit time." Just run the checklist over and over, soaking it all in. Know where every switch is and get a feel for the flow patterns. Buy the pizza and beer for a fellow pilot and have them go through it with you, ad nauseum.

While at school, keep this in mind: just as in any checkride, they can only hold you to the standard; in this case, the ATP standard. I hate to say it, but they'll be scrutinizing you far more than a 4000 hour pilot, regardless of his/her skill. But if you're prepared and you meet the standard you should definitely stand up for yourself. Good luck and let us know how you do!

Fly safe.

[Markus109]

Hello all,

dont worry to much. I was in the same situation like you years ago coming from a PA28 and going on a Falcon20 as low timer.
Try to get the pilots flight manual in advance so you have enough time to study al the theory. And fly the Microsoft sim is also a good idea.

You will do it. :)

Greets
Markus

[theWings]

VORTIME,

formulaben is so right. Unlike the airline training setup, GA aircraft training organisations are geared towards more experienced people and don't yet cater that well for people who haven't been the seneca>navajo>kingair route (in time they will). They're going to assume alot about your instrument flying experience and possibly a bit about your multi-crew experience. Try and do things which will close that gap, maybe some Pilot Assist work if you can get it, practice departure and arrival briefs, and as someone suggested, even some 1-2-1 with the mighty MS FlightSim practising holding and procedural approaches.

Also, just look at the length of the courses: I know they aren't anything like the same a/c, but typically 5 weeks for the 737, 12 days for the Bravo. You can't do anything about this so, as always, preparation is everything: GET THE MANUALS and get some back seat rides if you can.

Critically, if you're not happy with something in the sim, be it the instruction or a particular hurdle you're struggling to get over, SPEAK UP and ask for help, you should get it. Don't waste valuable training sessions, especially the early ones where you're developing your basic jet handling skills.

On the other hand, the good TRTOs really will do everything to help you through. They'll pick up problems as they arise and try to sort them. It is very doable, and if you work at it, you'll do it.

btw, I'm not sure whether you are doing this because you want to work in GA, or because you see it as a route to an airline. Either way, I hope you find the job, when you get it (and right now you should) challenging and rewarding and sooo much more fun than scheduled route flying.

Good Luck:ok:
the Wings

[pressed_on]

From downunder...:}

Good on you for giving it a go mate, am in New Zealand and am very jealous of your opportunity to get on a Bizjet ground course in-country!

I'm curious as to how much the type rating will cost you and also the cost of a basic Gulfstream type rating as well. I know only of doing a Dassault Falcon rating which is around $50k NZD.

Also, is it fairly easy to get a job once you have the rating? even for low IF time pilots?

Cheers :ok:

pressed_on

[VORTIME]

Guys - don't shoot me down here. I deliberately didn't mention this at the start since I know some pilots feel quite hard by pilots who fly for free. I'm not interested in a professional career (flying is a fun distraction from the office) so I'm looking at doing an EagleJet course - Citation II rating at FSI & 500 hrs on type for €22,000 or $29,000. It would be merely an expensive holiday. However, it would be nice to find a safety pilot role after returning to Europe (but not fussed). $58 an hour flying cargo at night in a Citation is a lot more fun than paying $180 for SR-20 imho... What do you guys think?

Obiviously my commitment wouldn't be in question.

VT

[Lembrado]

VOR

If you are not interested in a career as a pilot than please use another forum. Alot of guys took time to give you good advice here, seems to me like you abused that by not making you're intentions clear from the outset.

Absurd comments like "merely an expensive holiday" are not welcome by individuals like myself who have worked hard.

I think a spotters and/or private pilots forum would suit you better sir.


L.

[Crosswind Limits]

Would agree with Lembrado! Your initial post was misleading and now you've come clean with your real motives it all becomes clear!

I self-funded myself onto Citation II/Bravo in June this year because I was stuck in instructing and was the wrong side of 30. I now get some freelance work around the UK but hopefully am close to securing regular employment with a large charter outfit in the south-east. I do not appreciate people like you undercutting me with no intention of working as a professional pilot. I ask for and work for a fair days pay but people like you make that task more difficult.

[eyeinthesky]

Blimey...

The bloke only asked how difficult it would be, in your opinion, for him to make the jump from C172 to Citation. He made no mention of intending to take it on to employment. Now that he says he wants it for his own fun you're all up in arms:=

What is this? You only give information to people who you think deserve it if you judge their motives correctly? If you don't want to pitch into the job market you're not worthy of help? What kind of attitude is that?

Someone says, in the flaming of VT:

Quote
I've read some of your other posts in other forums and have to say the word 'immaturity' comes to mind! I can't ask you to go to another forum as you say you have a CPL/IR so you're entitled to be here. But your attitude displayed here is anything but professional!
Unquote

Take a look in the mirror! What gives you the 'mature' right to judge this bloke just because he doesn't fit in your perception of the type of person who should be asking for advice? :yuk:

[Crosswind Limits]

Yeah maybe you are right I'm having a bad day!:ouch:

VORTIME, good luck with whatever you've got planned!

[LRdriver II]

Its not so much him taking a holiday from the office, but more the outfits that EagleJet work with that take freebie copilots on and take away jobs from young hopefulls. THink about the money saved when you can have a line of time-builders flying for free (or even better, pay for sticktime). Great way for a greedy company to cut costs and undercutting everybody else.
Just be aware you might or might not get any flying after you have paid them as many of these shady outfits have a waitingline of cannon-fodder to process before letting you in. ALso the equipment might be crap (but hey, good experience) and the Captains you fly with might hate you for flying for free and hence deny you any stick time and tell you to shut up and sit on your hands for 50/100/200 hours.
..but hey, it all looks good in the logbook :E

[Flintstone]

If you want to fly as 'a holiday' fine. Do it at your own expense but not in a way that impinges upon others.

What is it that you do for a living? How would you like it if I pitched up at work one day and offered to do your job for nothing?

Get the point?

[Atlas Shrugged]

Crosswind Limits/Lembrado,

If he has enough money to buy a Citation and he has enough money to do the endorsement, then whether or not he does it privately for his own amusement or whatever, is of no concern to anyone other than him. How he spends his money is none of your business. How he earns his money is also none of your business.

All he asked was for some advice.

Either give it graciously or don't give it at all.

[Crosswind Limits]

Atlas Shrugged

I beg to differ! Everything you say is fair enough accept ' How he earns his money is also none of your business'. Well it is my business when whatever he does, affects my ability to earn a living! If he's poling around South America or some other far flung place it's not likely to affect me, although local pilots might have something to say about it. If he's intending to do this in Europe or even UK then I'm sorry I make it my business to tell him how I feel!

I removed the part of my initial post which was irrelevant to the debate.

[PPRuNeUser0215]

VORTIME:

First to answer your initial question, I wouldn't worry about a Citation Type Rating. Guys with 200 hours get through 747s in an environment probably a little tougher than where you are going to get yours done.
Because if you do your type rating at Flight Safety US for example (Nevermind Eaglejet:rolleyes: ), I would be very surprised indeed if you were to fail...
Saying that if your Instrument flying skills are a little bit on the edge you might find it difficult to handle a jet (if it is your first one) and fly procedurally. Not difficult but the more spare capacity you have, the easier it gets.

Now as for paying to fly.... :ugh: := I am with the others on that one. Flying a citation for fun is fine, flying a friend's one for free must be great and owning your own must be even better.
But! Paying an outfit to have you working is beyond belief! You have spare cash and good on you but to get that money, you must have worked for it, one way or another and I had an interest in what you do as a professional, what would happen if I was to do that job of yours for free (or even pay for it:rolleyes: :rolleyes: ?).
Because if I was to do that, you wouldn't have the leisure of thinking of getting a Type Rating and perhaps you might have no leisure at all.
So if you are a professsional (of any kind) act as a professional, don't undercut people simply because you can. This industry is tough enough for newbies, it has its fair share of crooks, banckrupties, ruthless and unsafe operators, all affecting our lives as Aviators, all impacting on our profession for the future.
Get yourself a type rating, enjoy it and then since you have a licence, go and network so you can offer your services as a freelance pilot. You will get paid for it, have the respect of your colleagues, learn a lot more (because it won't stop at the end of the block paid for) and I am pretty sure, you will be, quite rightly so, proud of yourself.

[VORTIME]

Guys - don't get me wrong here. It's a flying holiday by all means but when one has commitments with restrict flying as a career but which to expand their skills enevelope it is a rather interesting choice. I don't intend and would hate interfer with someone's right to work. Howsoever, I would like to build jet time and possibly keep it current acting as a unnecessary safety pilot occasionally to increase by comptency and skillsets to make long distance flying realistic at a personal level. Sitting in the right seat for 500 hrs, or say 6 months is an experience of a lifetime for most - it's not a career choice, I've no intentions of flying for a living and if I did, of course I'd charge the commercial going rate.

This is for my own personal benefit to enable me to be a safer and more able pilot flying long distance personally. I think it's very childish for someone to imply I shouldn't use my hard earned cash to do what I would like to for a few months. Again, I'd agree if I were doing it every weekend but that's simply not the case.

Are you saying that someone outside a aviation as a career should never be allowed to experience flying a jet? Maybe you you choose a career as boring as accountancy or law you wouldn't find people who simply try out your job for a few months for joy.

Some people here have to realise you don't own the joy of flight. If money is your objective, flying isn't ever going to be profitable and salaries will keep going down - this is unfortunate but a simple fact of life since so many people also want to do your job (not me). Attack me if you wish for saying this but it's no disrespect (I respect a good pilot as much as any of you) but it's simple economics.

VT

[lm06]

VT
i'm heading in a similar direction to you
my interest is also in long-distance personal flying
(or as i prefer to call it "time-travel" )
i'm about 100hrs behind you...

am very keen to hear how you progress from here
for my own education - hope you continue to post
progress reports....

[Atlas Shrugged]

Vortime,

This is for my own personal benefit to enable me to be a safer and more able pilot flying long distance personally. I think it's very childish for someone to imply I shouldn't use my hard earned cash to do what I would like to for a few months :ok: :ok: :ok:

Crosswind Limits,

You have missed my point entirely.

I beg to differ! Everything you say is fair enough accept ' How he earns his money is also none of your business'. Well it is my business when whatever he does, affects my ability to earn a living! If he's poling around South America or some other far flung place it's not likely to affect me, although local pilots might have something to say about it. If he's intending to do this in Europe or even UK then I'm sorry I make it my business to tell him how I feel!


I own 4 aircraft. I am the only one who ever flys them, save occasionally a trusted and long time friend whom I do not charge. I have somewhere in the vicinity of 7000 command hours logged on a whole bunch of non-jet types all of which, apart from training, endorsements, renewals etc. have been private. I have paid for them all. Although I hold a CPL/MECIR and have done so for the past 17 years, I have never flown a commercial operation. Why, not because I think I will be taking a job away from you and not because I think I may affect your ability to earn a living, but because I've never had an interest in doing so nor have I ever been interested in flying a living. I have never made a dime out of flying, nor do I expect I ever will. I don't care about that. I choose to hold a commercial licence because I want to and I can. Has it made me a better pilot? – most definitely. I own four aircraft because I want to and I can afford to. How, is none elses business. Do I care whether it affects, or you think it affects you - no.

If I want to learn how to fly a Citation, Falcon, Gulfstream, 737 or even an R22 for my own benefit and betterment, then I will because I can. If it costs me, then so be it. I do not expect anyone else to fund something I choose to do for my own benefit.

If you think I, or anyone else is undercutting you or affecting your ability to earn a living by doing so in the way I have just described, then you've got it wrong. In any case, I don’t give a ****. I can do as I please with my money and my time, just as Vortime can do as he pleases with his. If you don't like it, tough.

[Flintstone]

Atlas. Your and Vortime's positions are chalk and cheese.

You are flying your own aircraft. Vortime is advocating occupying a seat in a commercial aeroplane. He suggests he'd only be taking a seat that would otherwise be empty which is fine but that also leads us down the unpaid pilots' assistant route (open large can of worms here).

Do I care whether it affects, or you think it affects you - no. Despite all the training you've been through you seem have missed the bit titled 'CRM'. :rolleyes: No extra points for charm, eh? I would suggest that your decision to stay away from commercial flying was the best for all concerned.


Vortime. I'm sorry if some of the reactions here cause offence but what you have to realise is that you would be having an effect, however 'second hand' and however small, on a professional pilot. As I and others have already said imagine if it happened to you. Just because what we happen to do for a living can be so much fun doesn't mean it's fair to contribute to the demise in T&C's

[LRdriver II]

Nail on head..
Take the rating and hire the Citation a few hours (10-15) at full rental rate. Thus you get the fun of flying a jet (I'd love to drive a jumbo around the circuit for a few touch'n'goes..but not fly longhaul) and you reach a level of comfort in the airplane. You also wont be taking a paying job away from a newbie professional pilot, and you can tell eaglejet or what ever scam you are joining to stick their ethics where the sun dont shine.
Job done, everybodies happy. A young pilot can feed his family and you can use your jet rating to score chicks in the bar :ok:

[trainee_flyboy]

Well whether the original post was considering a proffessional career or not I must say thankyou to all the contributors as I am about to embark on my CPL/ME/IR/MCC finishing with a C550 type rating and will be doing as a lot of you have suggested, so your posts have not been in vain!

[lm06]

hear, hear....i agree

[portsharbourflyer]

For those considering the citation rating for career progression; which rating variant would it be best to obtain?

500/550 (1, 11, Bravo),
525 (CJ1,CJ2),
560 (Encore, Excel)

[formulaben]

For those considering the citation rating for career progression; which rating variant would it be best to obtain?

500/550 (1, 11, Bravo),
525 (CJ1,CJ2),
560 (Encore, Excel)

I believe you might be slightly misinformed here (regarding the Excel) so here's a review. The CE-500 Type Rating is a very versatile rating. It gives you privileges in the 500, 501, 550 (II S/II, and Bravo), 551, 560 (V, Ultra, and Encore). Get the 500 type and do differences training for your specific model you shall fly, and you're legal. The Excel, although a "560" model designation, is a different type rating altogether; a CE-560XL, I believe. If I could only have one of the type ratings, it would be the 500. The 560XL type only lets you fly the Excel, the 525 rating is good, but the 500 rating covers many more aircraft. A side benefit to the 525 series is that as a part 23 aircraft, you don't need to do a yearly Single Pilot waiver.

[theWings]

formulaben is quite right, check out this (http://www.jaa.nl/licensing/classtyperatings.html) famous site for full info.

worth noting that, I think, most of the 525 variations are <5,700, and so they're not so good for your ATPL, assuming you're building...

[portsharbourflyer]

formulaben, the wings, thanks for the answers.

[terryjoint]

While as a pilot I thoroughly enjoy seeing my colleagues find work I'm obliged to point out (dons moderator cap) that advertisements here on PPRuNe must be paid for. Please contact admin if you wish to do so.






And no, I've no idea why this is underlined. I can't bloody well get rid of it :sad:

[joehunt]

Wouldn't let the extra speed worry you as it is all relative. Don't think speed but think time to the station instead, then speed will not be a problem for you.

Ignore anyone saying don't pay for a rating because with minimum hours you need that extra break, if you can't find an operator to pay for an initial type rating. The other side if the coin is you will not be bonded, or bonded to the extent if you did not pay. Only do it once though.

Go to FSI in the USA but it will take a month minimum to get TSA clearance. Reasons are these, more experienced instructors generally, the course will be spread over a longer period (very important at your level) a lot cheaper and a lot less complicated (KISS), even at a JAA approved outfit.

Good luck on the course.:ok: