First Choice - 2

[WATABENCH]

First Choice (1) here. http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2901101#post2901101

Just posted this on the BRS thread, the winter BRS-SFB/POP are tech stopping in MAN for fuel only, however, come summer, the BRS-SFB/POP are now split with MAN and the BRS-VRA is now split with EMA instead of just tech stopping, maybe the 767's are a bit stretched, the BRS-SFB/POP routes are selling well, the VRA not as well but still selling, so who knows?
That also means a new route for EMA doesn't it? Cuba unless i'm mistaken wasn't available before from EMA with FCA, definatly available on the website though, O/B direct, I/B via BRS.

[NEastMidlands]

When does FC normally release sales for winter 07/08, and is there any new destinations planned?

[rm2242]

I see G-DBLA has arrived in MAN! Looking verrrry smart.

When's PJLO arriving?

Cheers, Rob

[BOEING RULES THE SKY]

PJLO Arrives some time early next year, we get rid of one of our 321`s at the end of the year as well.

[NEastMidlands]

Has DBLA got any other changes that were problems on the others?

Also there have been rumours that G-OOAN may be leaving next year?

[BOEING RULES THE SKY]

What was the problems with the others?, only problem with LA was corrosion on it, which is now sorted out, Had problems with the IFE.
No rumors of OAN leaving next year, due to we will have 6x767 and 6x787 in our Fleet, will keep my ears open.

[NEastMidlands]

I have just been reading on another forum that LA will take over from AN whilst that goes for a "major refurbishment", so it wasnt that it was going, just for another refit?:confused: :confused:

[BOEING RULES THE SKY]

Sorry its taken so long to get back to you`s, as far as i`ve seen "AN" has had it refit, its got the New Seats front and rear, it cant have the same Cabinets by L2/R2 as with BL/BK/LM/LA.
"AN" is going to LTN soon for a Check, no refit.

[beardy]

Now that the mods have removed the blanket speculation perhaps we can return to single item threads!

Will FCA buy or merge and with whom?

[fly20]

Just a small rant, but could first choice cabin crew be a little more friendly to dispatchers and ground agents when we come on board? All other airlines, EZY, FR, BE, BA, TOM etc seem to be fine and happy, but FCA rarely smile, dont say thanks for any pax info you might give them, and generally have a face like a smacked arse. Flight deck crew on the other hand score top points for happiness, and us dispatchers generally look forward to speaking to you.
Miserable crew mean that we aren't going to be bothered about helping you, so you shoot yourselves in the foot by being misery guts. Its not our fault you have to wear fuscia pink jackets.
Any one else have a similar experience?

[NEastMidlands]

I noticed G-OOBL has gone down to Abu Dhabi today, any reasons for this particularly, surely it cant be for checks already.

[BOEING RULES THE SKY]

Thats right "BL" has gone for a (1c) C check, its not back till the 9th of December.

[Pidge]

So does the airline go in a sale with the mainstream sector or stay with the remaining FC 'specialist and activity' holiday company?

[westie]

As usual FC pilots have been told nothing so we can only assume what might happen. It is well known that there is over capacity in the market but there are still a certain amount of punters who still need to be flown on holiday. So to me that adds up to some sort of an integration of the airlines but with some reduction in the total number of flights/crews/ aircraft. My CV is being updated as we speak!

[sky9]

So a company that hasn't made a profit for some years and was to all intents and purposes bust makes an offer for a profitable part of another.
Run that in front of me again!!

[fiftyfour]

The company can't make a go of it on it's own, so they come up with a common desperate move. Plan a new big company based on spreadsheet assumptions. It also involves persuading existing company (first choice) shareholders to sell their existing shares for new (worthless) shares in a company with huge debts that might be paid off in future years (after the existing management have left with their bonuses etc) if everything goes according to a very ambitious plan. Can't see many shareholders falling for it.

[westie]

Sky9,

Oh and u forgot to mention the resultant debt still present as a result of the losses but your absolutely right and there no better truth than stating the bl****ng obvious. Nice position for FC pilots to be in! One moment you're part of a profitable Company and the next you MIGHT be part of a Company who hasn't actually posted a profit recently. Nice thought!

[763 jock]

One question. Why are FC trying to offload a major part of their business that makes up 47% of their profit? Perhaps any suitor should proceed with caution. Airtours (as was) had a long history of dodgey acquisitions that eventually brought it to its knees. McHugh better get this right.

[groundhogbhx]

Been hearing rumours that FC were planning to pull out of BHX next summer, now this. The plot thickens

[Shamrogue]

Economies of scale etc.

Over the last 5 years or so, the traditional package holiday has taken a hammering. Every travel agent can now "tailor make" trips to Spain and the rest of the world. Hotel only operators which travel agents use will act to cover the question of "health and safety" and finally most customers are now happy to book each of the parts - flights, hotels and transfers individually. Very often there's not much in the difference pricewise.
Now given that the market overall hasn't grown by a huge amount - allow back the amount that scheduled low cost and traditional carrier now have and you end up with a shrinking market. So I think it's shrewd of FC to flog mainline as I'm sure they use a lot of scheduled flights for their "specialist" markets. It leaves MYT with a bigger slice of a deminishing market. There will always be room for the traditional package just less so.

Shamrogue

[Duff beer]

Fiftyfour and westie, well done!
You win the award for the most wrong statement of the year.

in a company with huge debts that might be paid off in future years

MyTRAVEL has no debts whatsover, zilch, nada, nothing!
unlike may I add several other big tour operators.

and SKY9 you get the silver medal.

So a company that hasn't made a profit for some years and was to all intents and purposes bust makes an offer for a profitable part of another.
Run that in front of me again!!

The MyTravel group did make a profit!

The North American arm made money, the Scandy arm make a shed loads of profit and the UK arm made a small loss (well on track to make the forecasted profit by 2007). Overall a net profit.

MyTravel went through the s**t a few years ago, it has come out of it incredibly strong. The airline and engineering side have done especially well. Look at the stats on OTP and you'll see MYT no1. MYT engineering makes a huge profit due to its third party servicing.
Certain other tour operators probably would have gone through the same hell (and may well still do) if they had reported to the FTSE.
Consolodation is the only option, and as MYT and FC seem to be the strongest financially............a merger makes strong business sense.

[Baron buzz]

Here is what it says on the First Choice PLC website....

"Following recent press speculation regarding its Mainstream business, the Board of First Choice Holidays PLC confirms that it has been reviewing how it might continue to maximise the potential of this market leading tour operating business. It is considering a range of alternatives in this market and discussions with a number of parties are at a preliminary stage. However, there can be no certainty that any transaction will be forthcoming.


Further announcements will be made as appropriate."

So, should the First Choice workforce be concerned????

BB:hmm:

[crew the screw]

Na... surely the pink splodge and the red will clash?

[BRAKES HOT]

I think you will find the new name is

MY-SKY-FIRST-TRAVEL-THOMAS-CHOICE-SERVICE-COOK

:rolleyes:

[Baron buzz]

Hasn't this happened before though? Didnt MYT make a bid for Part/all of First Choice some years ago that was blocked my merging legislation (of some sort)? And didnt First Choice then try to buy MYT after that, and that particular deal fell through?

Seems its MYT's turn to 'have another go'. Wonder if anything will actually happen.......

[Han Special]

I think some consolidation of the charter industry is inevitable.The German owned Companies are not answerable to the FTSE so as previously stated need not declare any difficulties and are not as transparent.I think this makes a deal between the two UK operators more likely.The previous deal was blocked by the EU but was later overturned.

I think it is only the tour operator that has been mentioned as being involved in talks,not the FCA airline.

[Baron buzz]

Yes but the tour operators 'mainstream product' contains amongst other things, First Choice Airways. Presumably any major deal would involve the airline too.

Who knows?

[Han Special]

I would presume nothing. I think the "mainstream product" as you put it refers to the mass market tour operators as opposed to the specialist and adventure holidays that FC have so successfully differentiated themselves in.I think this means synergies,cost savings and job losses somewhere.

[Alberts Growbag]

I can assure you that any purchase of FC mainstream holidays would also include, or at least affect the airline. We are after all only a branch of mainstream holidays.

The only question that remains is whether the deal would include the 767 long haul operation. The European operation has been the weakest link in our profits for years. To bin that to MyTravel and leave them to play in the sun, sex and sangria market makes sense. It just remains to be seen if Peter Long will sell the long haul operation and free himself from marketing all inclusive packages together.

It would seem a dumb move if he does, as it is at present the market leader that is giving the other tour operators and a few scheduled carriers a pain in their bank balances.

Still, whatever happens one thing is for sure. If you're a junior pilot on the Airbus of either MYT or FCA you should seriously consider planning your leap to safety once the iceberg is in site!!

Good luck to all on both sides.

:uhoh: :sad:

[Baron buzz]

Alberts Growbag - Thats the point I was trying to make.

Lets not forget though, that this deal has been attempted already twice and a recent FC merger with Kuoni (i think), has just fallen through. Not sure it will be as easy as all that.

However, from a business point of view, it does seem to make some commercial sense.

Doubt it will do me any good though. Who knows.

[Dan Air 87]

I am not surprised given the over capacity in the market but this is nothing new. What will happen to First Choice's 787 order??

[crew the screw]

A sale of these has been a rumour for some months now. Bloody well hope not though!! This will be an interesting one to watch:eek:

[Down Three Greens]

Well said Duff Beer - A post with a number of up-to-date facts about MYT as it is today...not dwelling on the dark days of three years ago.

I am sure both FC and MYT pilots are equally in the dark about the happenings at board level (apart from the usual company press releases that they probably get now and again). Its all speculation at the moment but I think all of us have heard the rumours about consolidation in the charter market over the last 12months, so I guess it's not that unexpected.

[Smile!!!]

What about Thomas Cook who have been sniffing around?

[Baron buzz]

Thomas Cook I believe were also sniffing around. That was last months rumour. Nothing has arisen from it....yet.

As far as both My ravel and First Choice press releases are concerned, there are a number of 'interested parties' that First Choice are talking to regarding all this merger/takeover/buyout stuff. Who knows whether it will actually happen though, and in what form it will/may happen. It could turn out to be positive news for some and unlucky for others.

I wonder if FCA would cease to exist under one of these plans and become MyTravel Airways - which in turn would be a pretty large European Holiday Airline. Or perhaps the other way round, since probably, FCA is doing better than MyTravel, atleast in the long haul department.

Perhaps also (lots and lots of speculation here) that all this FCA longhaul success was just an exercise to make the airline more appealing to any potential buyer, and with the B787 order round the corner, and delivery dates associated with them, just maybe all of that was designed with a future sale in mind......

Of course all of the above is totally speculative......what do i know??? With any luck its just rumour, and this speculation will go the same way as the Thomas Cook, Kuoni, and the other two previous (failed) MyTravel bids.

[TSR2]

Seem to recall a strangely worded statement by First Choice about 2 years ago along the lines that their long term business objective was to 'align more closely with long haul leisure destinations rather than the vulnerable short haul inclusive tour market'.

So a merger (or exchange of business interests) with MyTravel may well be a move in that direction and maybe makes some sense. First Choice, with their new fleet of B787's specialising solely in long haul, whilst MyTravel concentrates on a vastly reduced-over-capacity short to medium haul charter market.

Just speculation though.

[RoyHudd]

Alberts Growbag....no problem with your posting, but exactly why should "junior" Airbus pilots in MYT and FCA be worried? Please clarify. (Are you suggesting a decline in possible combined fleet?)

[westie]

Duff beer,

You say I am wrong in my statement that My Travel have massive debts. The Mail yesterday quotes them as coming close to extinction with massive debts in 2003 of 1.2 billion and losses of 900 million. Where's this all gone then? Did Abramovic dip into his pocket?

[763 jock]

Westie, they did a debt for equity swap. Most of the 900 million was write downs. The shareholders were all but wiped out and left with 4% of the new company. The value of shares may go down as well as up.......and all that. The new company is pretty much debt free and probably stronger than many of its competitors. It is now very lean and from where I see things, much more efficient.:ok:

[A4]

No Westie, the banks did a debt for equity swap. i.e. the banks got 96% of the shares (and all the exisiting holders got 4% divided up between them....) and in return the banks wrote off the debt....gone, zip, zero. Pretty good going on the part of the MYT board and now could pay off for the banks to.

So the billions of debt is gone. Fact.

I'm ex MYT and remember the "dark days" well - it was not a pleasant couple of years. I think consolidation is inevitable but unfortunately "synergies and economies of scale" = redundancies. If it all comes together I wish all involved good luck.

A4

[sky9]

Come on guys, the banks had no option other unless they put the company into liquidation. They rightly took the view that there were no assets so they wouldn't get anything back so they opted for a punt. Ask the previous shareholders who got 4% of the company.
They are hardly however a success story to quote from the MyTravel corporate website "This (2006) will be the Group's first profit before tax since 2001".
Any purchase of First Choice will be by issuing new equity.

[763 jock]

I guess the bit that most of us are interested in is what happens to MyTravel Airways and First Choice Airways should the deal go through. Peter McHugh states that MyT wish to purchase the UK mainstream tour operation from First Choice and "certain related operations". At this stage I reckon it's anyones guess as to what would and would not be included in any deal. As it's not a hostile approach hopefully we'll all know sooner rather than later..

[NEastMidlands]

My GUESS would be that;

The entire fleet of B757, A320 and A321 would go to the buyer.

First Choice Specialist company would retain the B767 and the order for the B787 and then use both to service long and extra long haul destinations.

[Baron buzz]

OK. Lets look at this sensibly.....

1) Why would First Choice want to sell the division (Mainstream Holidays Sector) that makes them 48% of their total profit? It cant be doing that badly....last year First Choice Holidays PLC made £118 million in profit. Thats over TWICE what MyTravel are forcasting for this year....:confused:

2) Shouldnt it be First Choice launching a bid towards MyTravel given that First Choice seems to be the stronger company and aquisitions seems to be what First Choice loves doing (something like 9 so far this year).

3) Just because MyTravel wants to buy First Choice doesnt mean that they are going to succeed.......

4) I cant see it personally. Not a straightforward sale anyway. It just doesnt make any sense. Perhaps a 'you have this and we will have that' situation may develop. But i think the ball is in First Choice's hands at the moment, if they (the shareholders) dont want to sell then this will be MyTravels third failed attempt at purchasing First Choice. (Hopefully the last too!) Of course it could be third time lucky....

5) Other posters (cant be bothered to look through postings) who type things like 'im updating my CV as we speak' and 'i think all junior 757/Airbus pilots should be scared' is of no help to the situation and is simply scaremongering.:ugh:

Rant complete.....comments very welcome.....:mad:

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Baron buzz
I think you have missed the point, "First Choice has confirmed it is in talks with a number of parties over the sale of its package holiday business, according to newspaper reports".
MyTravel is one of the companies that has shown an interest.
So as you can see it is First Choice that started all this and not MyTravel.:confused:

[swedish]

My Travel had massive debts which were swapped with equity. At that point in time they still had debts, namely in the area of aircraft leasing. Since that time the debts have increased as the total profit over that period has been negative. My Travel has never been debt free, and those aicraft leases debts are large - ask the former directors who retired on these lease deals.
They annouced an all airbus fleet sometime ago until someone looked more carefully at the lease agreements :}

[Dan Air 87]

When its all said and done, I think this move will not happen. If anything, I reckon that My Travel (or Airtours) will themselves be taken over given their poor performance for shareholders and the public over the years. orry I can't be more optimistic but their management have taken some weird and wacky decisions over the years. Look at My Travel Lite for instance...

[westie]

Well said Swedish and quite honestly I couldn't be bothere to reply to Duff Beer when he/she pulled me up for saying that MYT has debts. Of course you are right and this has been confirmed in the press over the last few days. Their massive debts of a few years ago might have been soaked up by the City but you only have to look at the fact that they havent made a profit yet to tell you something. OK they might make one this year but not nearly enough to clear previous years losses.
Fo what it is worth I don't think that FC will end up as part of MYT but as for what will happen? well your guess is as good as mine.

[EPRman]

Mr @ Spotty M,

I think you'll find MyTravel made an unsolicited approach to First Choice.

Regards.

[beamer]

Hostile approach from a firm with a very precarious financial situation bidding for aspects of the IT market which are facing the strongest possible threat from low-cost airlines and the boom in self-organised internet vacations. Whilst FC may wish to dispose of the lower end of the market to maximise its own performance why on earth would anyone want to bankroll such a purchase by MYT. Despite denials to the contrary perhaps a sale of unwanted assets by FC to MYT or indeed another operator would allow the much discussed tie-up between FC and Kuoni to regain some momentum.

[Baron buzz]

I think you have missed the point , "First Choice has confirmed it is in talks with a number of parties over the sale of its package holiday business, according to newspaper reports".
MyTravel is one of the companies that has shown an interest.
So as you can see it is First Choice that started all this and not MyTravel.:confused:

I'm not so sure its me not getting the point MR @ SPOTTY M. As has been said, MyTravel have made an 'unsolicited' approach to First Choice, not the other way around. First Choice has said:

"First Choice Holidays PLC confirms that it has been reviewing how it might continue to maximise the potential of this market leading tour operating business. It is considering a range of alternatives in this market and discussions with a number of parties are at a preliminary stage. However, there can be no certainty that any transaction will be forthcoming"

Now, that doesnt say (as you put) First Choice is in talks with a number of parties regarding the sale of its package holiday business". It says that they are looking at the best way of taking that particular part of the business forward. (Its also the bit that made them just under £50m in profit last year).

So it brings me back to the point.....why sell what is making you money, can anyone rationalise that one???
:ugh:

[aileron]

From one of FCA's board.........‘...We got the offer, we’re looking at it. We might sell, but we might acquire, we might do something else,’ he said.

MyTravel’s move, he suggested, was a result of pressure on MyTravel. He said that its chief exec Peter McHugh ‘had done all the obvious’ and had to be be seen to be doing something by MyTravel shareholders after it told the market that the UK business would not end the year in the black.

‘After the summer just gone, the weakest will always be harmed,’ he said. ‘There is pressure on MyTravel to do something; we don’t need to do anything.......'

Profit & Loss

First Choice Holidays PLC Year End Date - 31October.
2001 (365) 2002 (365) 2003 (365) 2004 (366) 2005 (365)
Turnover £m 2,369.20 2,183.30 2,249.10 2,317.50 2,578.60
Operating profit (reported) £m 50.10 48.70 68.40 75.20 90.90

2006 estimated profit 113
2007 162

Profit & Loss

MyTravel Group PLC Year End Date - 31October.
30-09-01 (365) 30-09-02 (365) 30-09-03 (365) 2004 (397) 2005 (365)
Turnover £m 5,050.80 4,379.20 4,190.20 3,183.68 2,910.10
Operating profit (reported) £m 52.90 -92.10 -738.10 -91.76 20.70

2006 est prof 56
2007 113


MyTravel reiterates FY profit guidance but cautious on 2007 UPDATE
(Adds detail)

LONDON (AFX) - MyTravel Group PLC, the holiday group, has reiterated its profit guidance for its year to end-October 2006 but cautioned it may not hit its target of a 3.5 pct operating margin in the UK in the following year if the trading environment doesn't improve.

MyTravel issued a profit warning on Sept 13, blaming the World Cup, the July heatwave, UK security alerts and terrorist attacks in Turkey and Jordan for a slump in summer bookings.

'It's very early to say what's going to happen in the summer [2007]. Last summer we really had an extraordinarily bad summer in the UK. We need to return to a more typical summer,' McHugh told AFX News.

--------------------------------------------------------------

[Han Special]

It is obvious that there is quite a lot of resentment here."FC should be taking over MYT" and all that. It is true that FC have done very well by concentrating on specialist and activity holidays, not mass market.There needs to be some consolidation in the mass-market sector .I think some deal will be struck somewhere but who knows when and with whom.Any deal with FC and MYT would enable cost cuts and synergies to spread and help preserve jobs in the long run.It would be good for the industry and mutually logical deal for both parties.

[Baron buzz]

No, no resentment here.

It's simply a situation that I don't understand (there a quite a few like that!:confused: )!! Seriously though, I think people are only questioning the situation because First Choice are the ones who like buying other companies, have a profitable mainstream brand etc and its everyone (myself included) that is simply surprised by all this.

If the rumour was 'First Choice is looking at buying MyTravel', there would of course be similar debate, but the surprise element would probably be much less.

No resentment though, i think most would agree there needs to be some kind of cost cutting/deal making to be done. I for one, have absolutely nothing against MyTravel in the least.

[Dyls]

(Taken From BBC News Online)

Passengers were left angry after a day trip to Lapland was cancelled because of technical problems with an aircraft.

Police were called to Cardiff International Airport on Sunday after a small number of passengers became "extremely aggressive" with staff.


An airport spokesman said a braking problem had been found by engineers.
Operator First Choice said the 179 passengers would be offered a full refund or an alternative trip, which they hoped would be before Christmas.
One passenger, Heidi Bennett, who was with her husband David and their six-year-old son Jacob, told BBC Radio Wales that children due to leave on the flight were left "very disappointed".
She said: "There were a lot of very, very upset children and some very upset parents too. There will all ages there, from four to teenagers."
Peter Phillips, head of marketing and communications at Cardiff International Airport, said the aircraft was one of three flights leaving for Rovaniemi airport, in northern Finland.

The captain identified a braking problem which was at first thought not to be important.

Engineers were called but the passengers were allowed to advance through to the boarding gate.

'Bad behaviour'
Mr Phillips said the engineers then found that the fault was more serious than first thought and the flight had to be cancelled He said: "The captain and flight crew came down in person to explain what the problem was.

"At this point a small number of passengers - three or four - became extremely aggressive with airport staff and airline personnel.

"Police were called and one woman was cautioned. The airport these days is no place to show temper or bad behaviour. "


A spokeswoman for First Choice said the option of using an alternative aircraft from Gatwick would have led to passengers losing a large part of their day trip. She said the cancelled flight had been rescheduled for next Saturday at 0700 GMT and customers would be informed of the schedule.

[Lancelot37]

(Taken From BBC News Online)

Passengers were left angry after a day trip to Lapland was cancelled because of technical problems with an aircraft.

Police were called to Cardiff International Airport on Sunday after a small number of passengers became "extremely aggressive" with staff.



Perhaps the Captain should have announced that he was prepared to chance taking off and being able to brake to a standstill on arrival. Adding that the airline would not be responsible for any deaths or injuries caused and that pax were welcome to add their name to a disclaimer list.

[WHBM]

Ah the Chavs strike again :)

Given the likely braking action on the Rovaniemi runway at this time of year I would be only too pleased that the crew had identified any braking deficiency in advance.

[Baron buzz]

Given the likely braking action on the Rovaniemi runway at this time of year I would be only too pleased that the crew had identified any braking deficiency in advance.

Absolutely. Totally agree with the decision. Can also understand the families being upset :{ , but of course there is never a need for violence.

On another note, The Times is reporting today that Thomas Cook are in the running to make a bid for First Choice, which the paper reports 'is for sale'. Seems there could be a bidding war going on! One thing is for certain though, First Choice's share price has gone up loads! Alright if you have got shares i suppose!!

[pinklady88]

Just a small rant, but could first choice cabin crew be a little more friendly to dispatchers and ground agents when we come on board? All other airlines, EZY, FR, BE, BA, TOM etc seem to be fine and happy, but FCA rarely smile, dont say thanks for any pax info you might give them, and generally have a face like a smacked arse. Flight deck crew on the other hand score top points for happiness, and us dispatchers generally look forward to speaking to you.
Miserable crew mean that we aren't going to be bothered about helping you, so you shoot yourselves in the foot by being misery guts. Its not our fault you have to wear fuscia pink jackets.
Any one else have a similar experience?


:mad: how rude! ha no we arent all the same you know, and i actually like wearing the pink!!what base are you commenting on ??

[afterdark]

FCA confirm 2 x more 787 orders totalling 8 on order
SEATTLE, Dec. 7 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- The Boeing Company (NYSE:BA) today confirmed that UK-based carrier and integrated-tour operator First Choice Airways has ordered an additional two Boeing 787-8 Dreamliners with deliveries beginning in 2011. This order previously was listed on Boeing's Orders and Deliveries webpage attributed to an unidentified customer.
First Choice, the European launch customer for the 787, placed its first order for six 787s in July 2004. With today's announcement, First Choice now has eight 787s on order. Boeing will deliver First Choice's first 787 in the first quarter of 2009.

[787Heaven]

Ive been thinking for a while about the possible role of the Very Long Range Boeing 777 with First Choice and its long haul business model. I would love to see this aircraft in First Choice colours but also believe it could be an asset to the fleet especially on busier routes where the 787s capacity would be too low.

It could in theory go direct from London to Australia with more seats available equalling more profit for the airline but also be used on current routes to the Carribean and Asia/Africa, having operated on these routes many times i know for a fact there is demand.

I could see First Choice operating their 8 787s happily along with around 4 777-200LRs on our ever expanding network.

Would love to hear from others about their opinions

thanx 787heaven

[Tom the Tenor]

Well, how about London/Manchester to Honololu? By pass America to Hawaii. Cool!

[787Heaven]

yeh.

We will be doing hawaii non stop when the 787 comes but when it is established i see no reason why we cant upgrade to a larger jet, or for instance going to Australasia (which is bound to be a popular route) on the 777 and keeping the 787 on thinner routes.

[Whitehatter]

Don't let such little issues as operating economics and acquisition costs cloud your fantasy.

The 777-200LR is an expensive plane to buy and expensive to operate at the edge of its performance envelope. Just ask those airlines who have costed out ultra longhauls. Without a significant chunk of big price tickets such as first or business class the numbers don't add up. Airlines like PK fly it at higher payload with less fuel, otherwise you end up carrying more fuel just to carry the fuel weight and...

Holiday traffic never generates the kind of yield a scheduled route does. FCA would end up flying the 777 at a huge loss on ultra longhaul.:rolleyes:

[johnrizzo2000]

A 777LR would need to have a huge premium cabin to cover the costs of ultra long-haul travel

[goldeneye]

Having flown to Australia a few times now, i really do not see the appeal of a non stop flight. Personally i prefer to stop in SIN, DXB or KUL or the likes, and im only talking about a transit stop to. It gives you a chance to walk around, freshen up etc which you dont get on a non stop flight for 18+ hours. The 13 hours to SIN/KUL is just about enough before needing a break. We will see if FCA launch non-stop flights to Australia with there 787's. I can see the Far East and other destinations in Caribbean and into Central America working though. I also work in the Travel industry and know alot of customers/passenger feel the same way.

Happy New Year by the way.

[johnrizzo2000]

But if you look at SQ's SIN to EWR, or CO EWR-HKG, they both have large premium cabins, and also have the added revenue from filling their cargo holds. I'm not sure FCA is gonna fill a J cabin with people on all inclusive breaks to OZ!

[787Heaven]

But First Choice are branching out into specialist markets where prmium and a proper business class would do very well

[mathers_wales_uk]

Just a small rant, but could first choice cabin crew be a little more friendly to dispatchers and ground agents when we come on board? All other airlines, EZY, FR, BE, BA, TOM etc seem to be fine and happy, but FCA rarely smile, dont say thanks for any pax info you might give them, and generally have a face like a smacked arse. Flight deck crew on the other hand score top points for happiness, and us dispatchers generally look forward to speaking to you.
Miserable crew mean that we aren't going to be bothered about helping you, so you shoot yourselves in the foot by being misery guts. Its not our fault you have to wear fuscia pink jackets.
Any one else have a similar experience?

I have had similar experiences at CWL one or two of the cabin crew are very nice, flight deck seam to be very nice (except the one that overshot the stand and had to wait 10 minutes to be pushed back, and wondering why we didnt put the airbridge on).

The most friendl though had to be the Skyservice flight deck (canadian)that operated for first choice during the summer season. Hope to see them back at CWL in the summer.

:ok:

[mathers_wales_uk]

I find it strange that FC will be adding routes for the summer from CWL when in recent years it seems like they been moving their operations to BRS. It looks in S07 that on mondays FC will be operating two a/c can anyone confirm this?

It's just that i've looked at the flight times and on monday's the total adds up to over 24 hours. What will happen to the a/c for remainder of the week?

:ok:

[mathers_wales_uk]

To add with the rumours thats out there Virgin are looking to make a bif for First Choice, could this be one of the reason's they have delayed the delivery of the 6 A380's?

:ok:

[WATABENCH]

FCA CWL Summer 2007 - Skyservice A320

Mon: MAH 0600, FNC 1255, CFU 2200
Tue: PMI 0635, EFL 1315, REU 2230
Wed: LCA 0700, KGS 1855
Thur: ACE 0815, DLM 1810
Fri: BOJ 0630, TFS 1600
Sat: PMI 0700, ALC 1340, PMI 2040
Sun: PFO 0700, BJV 1855

No visiting aircraft, just a jolly good thrashing for the SSV 320, not much margin for tech delays!

[crew the screw]

But First Choice are branching out into specialist markets where prmium and a proper business class would do very well

A certain Possibility However our roots are with the Old Bucket and Spade Brigade, Alienating then with a Penchante for J class may just hurt. They are very price sensitive folk who save the allotted amount for their 2 weeks over the year.. Having said that On Newer Routes the old Brigade wouldn't notice these options. Then however you're in a new terratory with all the big players who don't have larger upper class sections.. maybe tried and tested on their half?

Offering destinations further away for the masses in relative comfort as we are doing with the Dreamy 787 is my 1st choice(See what I did there?)

[UPS@EMA]

Can someone confirm if First Choice will be operating SFB from EMA next Winter as its not on their website. Only Long Hauls are Goa and CUN. Is there any possability that they will offer SFB, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Mexico and Goa year round? Maybe 1 more destination? Jamaica???????
Also Ive heard they are gonna make EMA a 757 base as of next winter!!! is that right???
Regards
Stu

[transwede]

There has been talk on the 'Newcastle' thread of a charter carrier re-establishing a base at NCL. With FC concentrating more on longhaul operations, do people think theres any chance of seeing FCA at NCL again? Its quite a sizeable base and market, even though currently First Choice Holiday pax travel predominedly on Thomas Cook?

[paul atkins]

hey ups the first choice flight this year to sanford starting next month from ema as been low on bookings so that could be the reason they are not operating it next winter (summer seems ok )

[Ms Spurtle]

New destination for Summer07 - Fort Lauderdale.
Fortnightly from LGW.

[HH6702]

With thomas cook and mytravel merging i do belive that first choice will have to provide there own aircraft at ncl for summer 2008.

anybody else think that same?
lets hope they fly to other places or maybe differenct days that would be good for the airport and customer choice.

:)

[aileron]

FIRST CHOICE HOLIDAYS PLC

MAINSTREAM HOLIDAYS AIRLINE EXERCISES OPTIONS
ON FOUR MORE BOEING 787'S


First Choice Airways, the European launch customer for the Boeing 787, has
exercised options on a further four B787 aircraft. Originally, in July 2004,
the airline signed up for six 787's with options on a further six. In September
2006 it exercised the options on a further two and has now ordered the final
four.

The Boeing 787 has been the most successful new commercial aircraft to launch
ever. First Choice Airways will take delivery of its first two in 2009 and
introduce the remaining 10 between 2010 and 2013, doubling the size of its
long-haul fleet.

The B787 will bring faraway places within the range of mid-sized aircraft,
flying up to 8,500 nautical miles (10,000 miles) - Gatwick to Borneo for
instance - as fast as comparable current jets. It will use 20% less fuel than
today's mid-sized commercial aircraft, in part down to 66% of the aircraft
comprising composite material, which is considerably lighter than traditional
materials.

The B787 will also improve passenger well being; it will be pressurised at lower
altitudes and have greater cabin humidity ensuring passengers arrive feeling
less tired. New technology that senses air pressure differences and allows the
aircraft to avoid turbulence will also result in a smoother flight.

The First Choice Mainstream Holidays Sector provides differentiated holiday
experiences. Building a market-leading long-haul travel programme is a key part
of this strategy. Providing the most comfortable economy cabin is critical to
its success, as it has demonstrated over the last two years by upgrading its
Boeing 767's to provide customers with more legroom and superior in-flight
entertainment. Long-haul sales are currently up 38% for Winter 2006/07 and 19%
for Summer 2007.

Dermot Blastland, Managing Director of First Choice Mainstream Holidays said: "
Having taken the decision to increase our commitment to long-haul holidays we
wanted to ensure we could do this in the most cost effective and environmentally
sound way, whilst offering our customers new destinations and even more
comfortable travel. When we announced our selection in 2004, we believed the
new Boeing 787 would be key to achieving this. The success of our current
long-haul programme has now given us the confidence to order 12 aircraft. The
B787's will be a unique experience for our customers, as we establish ourselves
at the forefront of long-haul leisure travel."

"This third order from First Choice is another vote of confidence in the Boeing
787's capabilities and unprecedented environmental performance," said Marlin
Dailey, Vice President of Sales for Europe, Russia and Central Asia, Boeing
Commercial Airplanes. "It's exciting and very satisfying when great customers
like First Choice continue to select your product. It reflects its faith in the
787 and in Boeing. I'm also very proud First Choice is making the B787 an
integral part of its environmental leadership."

[NEastMidlands]

good news, that makes 12.

[aileron]

First Choice Airways, the European launch customer for the Boeing 787, has
exercised options on a further four B787 aircraft. Originally, in July 2004,
the airline signed up for six 787's with options on a further six. In September
2006 it exercised the options on a further two and has now ordered the final
four.

The Boeing 787 has been the most successful new commercial aircraft to launch
ever. First Choice Airways will take delivery of its first two in 2009 and
introduce the remaining 10 between 2010 and 2013, doubling the size of its
long-haul fleet.

The B787 will bring faraway places within the range of mid-sized aircraft,
flying up to 8,500 nautical miles (10,000 miles) - Gatwick to Borneo for
instance - as fast as comparable current jets. It will use 20% less fuel than
today's mid-sized commercial aircraft, in part down to 66% of the aircraft
comprising composite material, which is considerably lighter than traditional
materials.

The B787 will also improve passenger well being; it will be pressurised at lower
altitudes and have greater cabin humidity ensuring passengers arrive feeling
less tired. New technology that senses air pressure differences and allows the
aircraft to avoid turbulence will also result in a smoother flight.

The First Choice Mainstream Holidays Sector provides differentiated holiday
experiences. Building a market-leading long-haul travel programme is a key part
of this strategy. Providing the most comfortable economy cabin is critical to
its success, as it has demonstrated over the last two years by upgrading its
Boeing 767's to provide customers with more legroom and superior in-flight
entertainment. Long-haul sales are currently up 38% for Winter 2006/07 and 19%
for Summer 2007.

Dermot Blastland, Managing Director of First Choice Mainstream Holidays said: "
Having taken the decision to increase our commitment to long-haul holidays we
wanted to ensure we could do this in the most cost effective and environmentally
sound way, whilst offering our customers new destinations and even more
comfortable travel. When we announced our selection in 2004, we believed the
new Boeing 787 would be key to achieving this. The success of our current
long-haul programme has now given us the confidence to order 12 aircraft. The
B787's will be a unique experience for our customers, as we establish ourselves
at the forefront of long-haul leisure travel."

"This third order from First Choice is another vote of confidence in the Boeing
787's capabilities and unprecedented environmental performance," said Marlin
Dailey, Vice President of Sales for Europe, Russia and Central Asia, Boeing
Commercial Airplanes. "It's exciting and very satisfying when great customers
like First Choice continue to select your product. It reflects its faith in the
787 and in Boeing. I'm also very proud First Choice is making the B787 an
integral part of its environmental leadership."

[smith]

First Choice Airways, the European launch customer for the Boeing 787, has
exercised options on a further four B787 aircraft. Originally, in July 2004,
the airline signed up for six 787's with options on a further six. In September
2006 it exercised the options on a further two and has now ordered the final
four.


What is an "option"? Is it like saying I might buy another four planes or I might not?

If you take out an option, do you get them at market price when you take the option or is there any other real advantage of taking an option?

Does the manufacturer actually start the production process on an option or do they wait until the firm order has been placed.

Its been a thing that has puzzled me for a while.

[boeing boeing.. gone]

Buying an option is just like putting a deposit on a manufacturer slot! therefore you know if you exercise the rights you will have a definative delivery date.

[Ms Spurtle]

Isn't it just reserving places in the production queue ?

[Whitehatter]

Depends on the terms of the options, but it means purchase rights to come back and buy aircraft at a predetermined price point and delivery date. Delivery date is the most important factor at the moment.

As the 787 is in demand at the moment, companies are exercising their options and getting their confirmed slots in the delivery queue. Letting an option expire in this seller's market might mean if you want a follow-on order you would be waiting for some years at the back of the line.

[smith]

How much notice do you have to give to excerciseyour option? You obviusly cant decline the option after production has started?

If you decline your option does everyone behind you move up a slot and therefore get an earlier delivery date?

[Whitehatter]

I think (as I've never bough an airliner...) it's a case of there being a date on the options, when they must either have been converted to a full order or they expire and the airframer can resell them.

FCA were an early buyer so their options may be valuable, as they would be for aircraft early in the production series compared to people turning up today wanting some. If they have options for 2009 deliveries, you couldn't go to Boeing today and buy them as they have a full book for a few years out.

That's assuming no slippage in the program, which is by no means certain. New buyers might have to wait until 2012 or later.

[Evileyes]

Several posts have been removed lately because they were posted in the wrong forum. This is neither the Spotters nor the Passengers forum. Please direct future posts accordingly.

[MUFC_fan]

Is it true that FCA operate a weekly flight to Montego Bay from Manchester every Tuesday with a 752!:eek:

Even with the extra legroom, wouldn't like to be on a flight for 9h 10m with that aircraft!

Does it make a stop over or are OAG making a mistake and it is a 763?

Cheers.

[TSR2]

Not true. The aircraft is a B763 and operates fortnightly.