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View Full Version : Why I'm glad not to live in Texas


noflow
6th Oct 2006, 16:21
A teacher with 28 years of experience was recently fired by a suburban North Dallas school district. So what was her dastardly offense? She took her young charges to the local art museum. Apparently this respected museum has Greek sculptures that were created around 400 BCE. As anyone with a passing interest in art knows some of these sculptures are of human beings. And to add to the horrors these valuable and revered pieces of artwork represent unclothed persons. Imagine the horror of seeing 2300 year old sculpture revealing human anatomy. Yikes. I'm sure the children will be traumatized for the remainders of their lives.

The teacher was roundly criticized for not "previewing the route and insuring no inappropriate material would be viewed."

Panama Jack
6th Oct 2006, 18:20
The "heartland" of "America," and it's religious conservatives, shares much in common with the heartland of such places as Saudi Arabia with it's religious conservatives.

AcroChik
6th Oct 2006, 22:17
That's a fact, Jack.

Living in what's surely the modern-day merging of Sodom & Gomorrah, starting in elementary school we went on occasional pilgrimages to such dens of iniquity as the Metropolitan Museum of Art, home to world-class porn collections from every region and era ~ school was just a few blocks away, and most of us lived in the neighborhood.

One weekday morning, standing with my all-girls class of 11-year-olds in front of a marble Greek, the curator describing life and athletics in 5th-century Athens observed that time and rough handling had done its work on the sculpture's anatomy. "Poor guy," my best friend whispered.

All kidding aside, it's a tragedy that people aren't learning about the world except through a religious and ideological filter here. How can these children possibly grow up to cope with a reality beyond sanitized television sitcoms?

brickhistory
6th Oct 2006, 22:27
The "heartland" of "America," and it's religious conservatives, shares much in common with the heartland of such places as Saudi Arabia with it's religious conservatives.

Really? How kind of you to make the observation. And how many Texans have flown airliners into tall buildings? And how many other religions are there in the "heartland" of America vs Saudi Arabia? And do those religions live side by side with others without strapping on the latest C-4 fashions?

The thread starter subject is ludicrous admittedly, but to make this comparision is just a bit much. And, of course, there are no close-minded groups in your little corner of the world? How wonderful for you.......

AcroChik
6th Oct 2006, 22:32
Ya know, brick, sometimes it's cool to take obviously exaggerated comments as they're meant, and not work yourself into a case of indigestion over them :)

Speaking as someone who could be a little sensitive on the matter, I'm pretty sure our Panamanian friend didn't mean us to think he was literally equating a Texas school board with 15 Saudi terrorists who attacked my city. It's called an analogy, ya know?

effortless
6th Oct 2006, 22:43
Really? How kind of you to make the observation. And how many Texans have flown airliners into tall buildings?

Oh dear, another section of society whom we cannot criticise because some of their number were victimised. :rolleyes:

brickhistory
6th Oct 2006, 22:46
Ya know, brick, sometimes it's cool to take obviously exaggerated comments as they're meant, and not work yourself into a case of indigestion over them :)

Speaking as someone who could be a little sensitive on the matter, I'm pretty sure our Panamanian friend didn't mean us to think he was literally equating a Texas school board with 15 Saudi terrorists who attacked my city. It's called an analogy, ya know?

Thank you for speaking up for PJ.
Also, thank you for considering my digestive status, but you are off the mark.
How can you be "pretty sure?" I read it and took a more serious tone than you, so who's to say? I took it very personally when the airliner flew into the Pentagon where I happened to be.

And I'd say it was more a direct comparison vice an analogy.

brickhistory
6th Oct 2006, 22:48
Oh dear, another section of society whom we cannot criticise because some of their number were victimised. :rolleyes:

Oh no, have at the outlandishness of the teacher's firing over this, but at least admit that what appears to be a case of close-mindedness is not a unique Texan or even American trait. Seems to run rampant world-wide, but that's not as much fun to point out is it?

AcroChik
6th Oct 2006, 22:50
:rolleyes: ......... :rolleyes:

Disguise Delimit
6th Oct 2006, 22:52
Texas ... umm .. let me see. Branch Davidian in Waco, how many people died in that lunatic religion's fire?

And wasn't there a school with an unhappy student and multiple guns and quite a few bodies?

And another Texan with a Chainsaw?:8

If you wear reading glasses with religious lenses, your focus will be somewhere way off the reality centre.

AcroChik
6th Oct 2006, 22:55
I had looked up the Texas Tower shooting to post about it (deleted post above). The guy was born in Florida.

vapilot2004
6th Oct 2006, 23:09
Religious fundamentalism and extremism of any flavour is not good. Not good at all. It serves no useful purpose.

Keef
6th Oct 2006, 23:13
Can't disagree with that. But I've never been to Texas: should I?

AcroChik
6th Oct 2006, 23:18
Just follow the yellow rose to Amarillo. Great little city :ok: Austin, too :ok:

effortless
6th Oct 2006, 23:19
Oh no, have at the outlandishness of the teacher's firing over this, but at least admit that what appears to be a case of close-mindedness is not a unique Texan or even American trait. Seems to run rampant world-wide, but that's not as much fun to point out is it?

Well at least the other fundies don't pretend to be the apogee of civilisation.

Whoops too much of the Vat '69, time for me berth methinks. Burp!

Panama Jack
6th Oct 2006, 23:23
Thank you AcroChik, for your very eloquently expressed views.

As for brickhistory, I am sorry that you feel offended. I hope you are not trying to suggest that all Saudi heartland residents are terrorists, just as I am not trying to suggest that Timothy McVeigh's, Terry Nichols or David Koresh are a typical reprensation of the internal US's constituency.

However, there again, some interesting parallels are presented.

I recall after the OK City bombing when it dawned upon everybody that it was domestic, rather than foreign terrorists responsible for levelling a building that a cartoon was published in a newspaper. It showed an overweight militia member with an M-16 rifle in camoflage pants, white undershirt and a tatoo on this left arm saying "Foreign Terrorists?!?!? Ha!!! Anything they can do, we can do better!" The cartoon was labled "The pride is back, America."

Heck, check out this website for a closer look:

http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/Militia_M.asp?xpicked=4&item=19


http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/images/militia-trochmann_small.jpg

P.S. The gentleman in the picture above may have a beard, but he is not from Riyadh and he is not a mutawah. Nevertheless, he is considered to be an extremist.

brickhistory
6th Oct 2006, 23:30
"Foreign Terrorists?!?!? Ha!!! Anything they can do, we can do better!" The cartoon was labled "The pride is back, America."
http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/images/militia-trochmann_small.jpg


In a very,very dark way, that is funny!

And no I am not suggesting the average Saudi, Brit, Chinese, American, etc., etc., is anything other than just someone who wants to get on with life and raise his/her family. Yes, I did read your opening post as stating a direct comparison, so obviously, no offense taken now.

AcroChik
6th Oct 2006, 23:44
So, there I was at the wheel of my ~ at the time ~ 12-year old Passat, tooling around upstate NY with a friend. We were up there from the city because we were due to go to a wedding in Niagara-on-the-Lake, on the Canadian side of the falls.

Anyway, we were just driving around, looking around, minding our own business and got a little lost. Down a narrow rural street, we came upon a group of rough-looking men and their rough-looking SUVs hanging out in front of a very modest little house. I pulled to the side to get directions (of course I'd left the map back in the hotel on the Canadian side).

These fellers were all tricked out in fatigues and whatnot, but was I scared? Nooooooooo, I be from da city, yo! Whachya doin here? I asked. "We're paying our respects." Oh, that's cool, I said, to who? "Tim McVeigh. He grew up in this house, and it's his birthday." One of the bearded dudes was laying a wreath. I nodded sagely. So, I guess we're in Lockport, right? "Yes," the answer came back. Great, now I know how to get back to Friendship Bridge.

goshdarnit
6th Oct 2006, 23:53
Apparently this respected museum has Greek sculptures that were created around 400 BCE.


I'm still struggling with that 400 BCE thing...is that old then? Or is it a 'art deco, avant garde kinda nouvea' date? Here in the UK we may not be quite as with it culturally, you know, as Texans.

[Trying to inject humor into a thread that has little chance of progressing beyond name calling....:) ]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
7th Oct 2006, 00:00
Brick get real. There may appear to be a difference between hard core Texas religious nutters and overseas religious nutters, but don't think for one moment that if they ever managed to take over Texas they would be any different. Not at all.



Question: why do they outlaw fornication in small town Texas?

Answer: Because once it starts, next thing, they'll be dancing.










...and there ain't no dancin' in Ansing :yuk:

evansb
7th Oct 2006, 00:54
Texas is a big state. There are probably more Texans who oppose the firing of the teacher than agree with it.
By the way, San Antonio is a charming city.

Two's in
7th Oct 2006, 01:20
Makes sense to me, if you let the little darlings see the naked form on School Field trips it will only ruin the surprise when their local congressman tries to sodomize them after they have volunteered to act as a congressional Page - obvious really.

noflow
7th Oct 2006, 01:47
Makes sense to me, if you let the little darlings see the naked form on School Field trips it will only ruin the surprise when their local congressman tries to sodomize them after they have volunteered to act as a congressional Page - obvious really.

ROTFLMAO

I figured some of you would enjoy the recap of the article. Reading it reminds me I don't mind God so much it's just that I can't stand his fan club.

chuks
7th Oct 2006, 13:28
The conventions of Greek and Roman art were such that those kiddies were probably not shocked and awed, whatever dangly bits they were exposed to. Still, I suppose it's best not to take chances and firing that teacher should play well with the voters. Or have they protested?

I was once telling someone in the States, the proper USA and not Texas, about a visit to a sauna in Finland. There it is part of their culture and, yes, one usually finds nekkid folks therein. My listener zeroed right in on this nekkidness as if I had been in a titty bar. I could not get him out of that mindset that naked = nude = ready for sex! The idea that clothes might not be such a good idea when the air temperature is around 200 degrees Fahrenheit or that nakedness doesn't necessarily involve having sex but might just be a way to enjoy the beauties of the Finnish countryside in a slightly goofy way - I could not get him off that 'sex' angle, which I found a bit sad.

The same mindset that would sack a teacher for taking kids to see classical sculptures can also prohibit booze to prevent drunkenness, and 'dry' counties often are a feature of the often featureless Texas landscape. So nekkidness and booze are OUT but despair not; their gun laws are very liberal, so that it isn't all doom and gloom. Don't pull out your pecker or a pint but a .38 - no problem!

A great American, General Sherman, once said that if he owned Hell and Texas he would rent out Texas and live in Hell. This is not a new problem; it didn't start with that current chucklehead President, George W. Bush (who is actually from Down East).

Personally, I think we should give Texas back to the Mexicans as reparation for the Mexican-American War.

And another thing: BCE and CE are the standard ways to identify dates, having superseded BC and AD. It avoids putting the religious element into history. It makes sense if you think about it. (Thinks, 'Think about it? D'oh!')

Ozzy
7th Oct 2006, 13:54
Thought Aaaaaaaaaaaaaagh (or whatever) would be in here soon! I don't live in the State of TX, but I love it. The sun has set and the sun has ris and I am still in Texas yet.

Ozzy

Re-entry
7th Oct 2006, 15:44
All my ex's live in texas, that's why I live in tennessee.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
7th Oct 2006, 15:52
Shouldn't that be: "The sun has ris an' the sun has set an' I be still in Texas yet" ?




btw, I used to have a car like that too.

Loose rivets
7th Oct 2006, 16:56
I've told the story before, but when I landed my UK guns in Texas, I asked what I had to do next. "Nothing...no registration in Texas." They all had silly grins on their faces. "But can we keep the papers that they were wrapped in?"

Huh? They were all the Sun or some-such, with page 3 girls.

"We're not allowed this kind of stuff here."

So an armory of guns, but no bits, in this neck o' the woods. Sad really.

Huck
8th Oct 2006, 01:49
Did you hear about the Texas toilet paper? They had to take it off the market - it wouldn't take sh!t off nobody.....

It avoids putting the religious element into history.

That makes about as much sense as the firing of this teacher.

mikelimapapa
8th Oct 2006, 03:53
I agree with Huck, like it or not, history has been shaped by religion, so why not use BC and AD to record history.

Another good example of censorship gone wrong in this country was the outrage over Grand Theft Auto. Supposedly the designers of the game put in some computerized sex scene and when some conservatives and family organizations got word, all hell broke loose. Stores were pulling the games off their shelves and politicians were calling for FTC investigations. In the game, you're awarded money for killing cops and beating down old ladies with a baseball bat. Thats ok, but throw in anything sexual, and the game will warp our children's fragile little minds.:ugh:

frostbite
8th Oct 2006, 12:29
Reminds me of when I worked in a Secondary school.

English teacher had bright idea - let's take the 4th form (14/15yo) to see Macbeth at a private screening at the cinema.

Two double-decker busses arrive, and we all troop off to nearest town.

Curtains part to display '18 certificate' followed by 'Playboy Film'. Oops!

Thoroughly enjoyed by all, and no repercussions.

Crepello
8th Oct 2006, 18:30
Hmm... if I'd had a 14yo in that school and he/she'd been shown a cert-18 film, there would certainly have been repercussions. :hmm:

There's now't wrong wi' Texas... America's very own version of Yorkshire. :)

arcniz
9th Oct 2006, 00:32
The same mindset that would sack a teacher for taking kids to see classical sculptures can also prohibit booze to prevent drunkenness, and 'dry' counties often are a feature of the often featureless Texas landscape. So nekkidness and booze are OUT but despair not; their gun laws are very liberal, so that it isn't all doom and gloom. Don't pull out your pecker or a pint but a .38 - no problem!

As recently as the 1970's, "dry" counties in Oklahoma were politically powerful enough that scheduled airline flights were compelled to close the alcoholic portion of the airbourne beverage service while in transit through Oki airspace.

con-pilot
9th Oct 2006, 01:31
As recently as the 1970's, "dry" counties in Oklahoma were politically powerful enough that scheduled airline flights were compelled to close the alcoholic portion of the airbourne beverage service while in transit through Oki airspace.

Sorry, but I must defend my adopted state. That is not exactly true. For a short period of time the airlines could not serve alcoholic beverages between Oklahoma City and Tulsa, a 30 minute flight. Today there is no service of any kind on any airline between the two cities because of the short flying time.

Now, for AMTRAK, the passenger rail service, they did stop the train from serving alcohol from the Kansas border to the Texas border when the train stopped in Oklahoma City. So AMTRAK just dropped the stop in Oklahoma City. The state changed the law and now the passenger train does stop in Oklahoma City, and yes they now serve alcohol.

However, there are still counties in Oklahoma that you cannot buy anything but 3.2 beer. But, you can buy 3.2 beer in these counties 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Baptist you know.

Oh, by the way, it is spelled Okie.

noflow
9th Oct 2006, 06:33
I agree with Huck, like it or not, history has been shaped by religion, so why not use BC and AD to record history.


Winners write the history.
Religion is one of the leading causes of death throughout history. We still haven't found a cure.
I've always wondered if the quote attributed to Arafat was accurate - "dying over who has the best imaginary friend" or something to that effect.

arcniz
9th Oct 2006, 07:17
Sorry, but I must defend my adopted state. That is not exactly true. For a short period of time the airlines could not serve alcoholic beverages between Oklahoma City and Tulsa, a 30 minute flight. Today there is no service of any kind on any airline between the two cities because of the short flying time.


OK, con-pilot. No offense intended. Please do not take umbrage. I actually think it was kinda cute that the locals asserted airspace rights for the county ordinances.... and got away with it for awhile. Think what fun that would be these days!

The liquor lockup experience described was - as best memory serves- on a DEN-DAL direct flight about 1972, and the 3.2 went with the hard stuff. Flight was Nonstop. United, Continental, Braniff, Frontier... I am not so sure which, but odds-on it was UAL. Do not recall having had the issue arise again on that route, tho. Probably it was thus just for a few moments in time, until someone got the authorities sorted out.

Seems to me that teetotalers are not the worst thing that has happened to mankind over the millennia. They can enjoy it all they want, and I'll gladly respect their customs, so long as I am not forced to knuckle under thusly outside the boundaries of their sober domain.

Once narrowly escaped losing my bachelorhood while spending a very unauthorised night in the women's dorm at Oklahoma U. in Tulsa. Still have a warm and fuzzy feeling for the place from that.

And the interesting, charming, multifaceted Benedictine monks at the monastary in Shawnee, Ok. Brother Ambrose, was appointed 'balloon pilot' - because someone had given them a full-size passenger balloon as a donation, but he had never been in the air.

The monastery (plus a mid-size college) was a collection of 5-storey buildings and about an 8-storey tower, incongrously thrusting up from the plains. Father Dotson, the Abbot, asked me to fly him up the wide tree-lined mile-long entry drive toward the tower at about 10 feet agl so he could take some photos for their school catalog. "I'll tell you when to pull up", he said, but in the end his faith was greater than mine. Brother Ambrose greatly enjoyed his first aerial sortie.

Oklahoma is a Great place!

ORAC
9th Oct 2006, 07:32
I thought of posting a list of the teachers and headmasters sacked or suspended in the UK for offending PC or multicultural sensibilities, but it would probably crash the site...... :suspect:

Davaar
9th Oct 2006, 09:20
Oklahoma is a Great place!

Yup. Merle Haggard and I say so too:

We don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee;
We don't take no trips on LSD
We don't burn no draft cards down on Main Street;
We like livin' right, and bein' free.

I'm proud to be an Okie from Muskogee,
A place where even squares can have a ball
We still wave Old Glory down at the courthouse,
And white lightnin's still the biggest thrill of all

We don't make a party out of lovin';
We like holdin' hands and pitchin' woo;
We don't let our hair grow long and shaggy,
Like the hippies out in San Francisco do.

And I'm proud to be an Okie from Muskogee,
A place where even squares can have a ball.
We still wave Old Glory down at the courthouse,
And white lightnin's still the biggest thrill of all.

Leather boots are still in style for manly footwear;
Beads and Roman sandals won't be seen.
Football's still the roughest thing on campus,
And the kids here still respect the college dean.

We still wave Old Glory down at the courthouse,
In Muskogee, Oklahoma, USA.

angels
9th Oct 2006, 11:09
I've had some great times in Texas but the dry counties still baffle me. And of course it's not just Tx, vast areas of the States are dry.
I remember stopping off at a place called Dillard in Georgia. When I asked where the bar was they told me it was a dry county. I asked where the nearest liquor store was so I could get a six pack.
The lady sternly informed me that grog was banned from the rooms.
No problems. I sodded off and stayed in a 'wet' town..

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
9th Oct 2006, 11:42
I agree with Huck, like it or not, history has been shaped by religion, so why not use BC and AD to record history.
Perhaps if you're talking about the date of the Roman invasion of Britain, but what relevance would BC and AD have to dating an Aztec ruin, or the stones on Easter Island, or the Pueblos in Arizona etc etc etc etc?

Re-entry
9th Oct 2006, 14:47
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/cpt_jackson/tx.jpg

Texas is a big state.

Re-entry
9th Oct 2006, 14:50
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/cpt_jackson/ak-1.jpg

Sorry,Texas.

noflow
9th Oct 2006, 14:53
Perhaps if you're talking about the date of the Roman invasion of Britain, but what relevance would BC and AD have to dating an Aztec ruin, or the stones on Easter Island, or the Pueblos in Arizona etc etc etc etc?

Or anything on the Asian and African continents where Christians are a minority. The problem with Americans is most don't have a passport and suffer from a very narrow world view. Unlike European media there is very little coverage of foreign affairs in the US. We watched the Republicans spend 80 million dollars investigating some relatively minor alleged financial improprieties and attempt to impeach a sitting president over a few sexual encouters with a consenting adult. There seems to be comparatively little outrage over being lied to about Iraq where we've killed tens of thousands of citizens and lost more of our own people than we did on 9/11. Tens of thousands of servicepeople have been maimed there.

As we head into the weeks preceding our November elections the price of oil has fallen precipitously. Ironically enough Bush's approval numbers always go up when the price of gas goes down.

Critical thinking is not our strong point. Many Americans are single issue voters so they can be quite easily swayed by candidates who oppose gun control or abortion. Many pilots vote for candidates who are vehemently anti-union and in favor of loosening cabotage laws that protect their jobs.

Now just watch as some American swoops down on this post with "love it or leave it." We don't handle criticism of our socitey too well either.

noflow
9th Oct 2006, 15:00
I agree with Huck, like it or not, history has been shaped by religion, so why not use BC and AD to record history.



Perhaps you're not aware that the majority of the world does not share your religious beliefs. Christianity dominates the Americas and much of Europe. Much of Asia and Africa where lots of people live are not Christian. Yet we do need some way of keeping everyone on schedule so we use the BC/AD system.

It would be fascinating to see how Jesus would be received today. Most likely he would be written off as a pacifist hippie socialist religious nut. He would especially be rejected by the people who claim to be ardent Christians.

Re-entry
9th Oct 2006, 15:01
'The Americans will always do the right thing...... after they've exhausted all the alternatives.' Winston Churchill.

G-CPTN
9th Oct 2006, 15:23
so why not use BC and AD to record history.
Can't we just extrapolate UTC? :confused:

West Coast
9th Oct 2006, 15:30
'The Americans will always do the right thing...... after they've exhausted all the alternatives.' Winston Churchill."

Unlike the Euro's who will do nothing. Hey, genocide in our own backyard, lets talk about it and not do a damn thing about it. Lets wait for the Americans to pull us out...again.

brickhistory
9th Oct 2006, 15:34
As we head into the weeks preceding our November elections the price of oil has fallen precipitously. Ironically enough Bush's approval numbers always go up when the price of gas goes down.

Critical thinking is not our strong point.

We don't handle criticism of our socitey too well either.

Wow, I am impressed with how all-powerful the Bush Administration is! To think they control the price of gas! Does he or VP Cheney just grab the handles - kinda like the ship throttle thingys - and set them to "profit" or "election?" So that whole supply and demand thing - summer vacation, more driving, EPA-mandated different summer blends so smaller overall supply in local markets - is just so much smoke and mirrors? Damn, you had better be careful, the men in black Suburbans will be by shortly, I bet!

And for US citizens holding passports, can we not drive to so many different locales, etc. that for most it is not a necessity unlike many of our European brethren? Nah, it's gotta be just stupid, lazy Americans!

I wonder how you'll handle criticism of your spelling? It's society, not socitey. Dang 'Merican schools................

Finally, thanks for speaking for me and the other 299 million +. You succintly encapsulated our thoughts, abilities, and shortcomings. Well done! :ok:

Newforest
9th Oct 2006, 15:47
Now just watch as some American swoops down on this post with "love it or leave it." We don't handle criticism of our socitey too well either.

Spot on Noflow, cast the bait and the fish is hooked. I did love it, that's why I left.;)

Davaar
9th Oct 2006, 15:59
1. And another thing: BCE and CE are the standard ways to identify dates, having superseded BC and AD.
2. It makes sense if you think about it. (Thinks, 'Think about it? D'oh!')\

1. Okay. Got that.

2. It is all clear the way you explain it:
(a) BC and AD are measured from the birth of Christ, and are offensive; but
(b) BCE and CE are measured from the birth of Christ, and are not offensive.
Makes sense.

noflow
9th Oct 2006, 16:09
I wonder how you'll handle criticism of your spelling? It's society, not socitey.

Actually more like a mistyping than a misspelling but thanks for your effort as the spelling gestapo.

And I'm relieved to hear there are no formal connections between the Bush administration and the oil industry. Does the fact that the government still won't disclose details about the "Energy Plan" and all those closed door meetings with oil company execs bother you in the least? I suppose the billions of dollars the government is giving to the oil industry in the forms of grants and tax relief is a good investment.

Enjoy life in your fantasy world. I suppose you probably think Saddam is behind 9/11 and there really are WMD's in Iraq. And I suppose you're perfectly content with the assault that has been mounted on the Constitution and a government that is working hard to suppress the judiciary branch. Remember that system of checks and balances we're supposed to have with a combination of legislative, executive, and judicial branches? Any of that familiar?

We invaded a sovereign nation without just cause but you're happy so long as you can get cheap gas for your SUV. Typical.

noflow
9th Oct 2006, 16:26
And for US citizens holding passports, can we not drive to so many different locales, etc. that for most it is not a necessity unlike many of our European brethren? Nah, it's gotta be just stupid, lazy Americans!

Lazy and stupid isn't that far off.

The problem is that until you get off your ass and visit other continents you have no clue how good we have it in the USA. Not sure if you know this but in many countries a car is a luxury item. In Asia you'll see Mum, Dad, and a couple of kids travelling around on a 125 cc motorcycle. I've seen as many as 5 on one of those. In much of the world good clean drinking water is hard to come by. Many people suffer from inadequate nutrition. Many live in a rather ramshackle hut. Not everyone has electricity 24 hours a day and some places still don't have indoor plumbing.

Ever seen the bumper sticker "Live simply so others may simply live"
That isn't so far fetched once you realize the difference between our standard of living and the rest of the world with the exception of much of Europe. We consume an overwheming percentage of the world's resources. We create far more pollution than we need to. Cheap gas prevents any real breakthroughs in reducing consumption. If we truly were a "Christian nation" as the right wing proclaims maybe we'd actually take some real steps to help our fellow humans. We'd squander fewer of the world's resources and instead of invading and killing people over oil perhaps we'd work to raise living standards and increase the average lifespan of folks in the third world.

Actually making sacrifices to help the rest of humanity is probably easier to sell to "non-believers" than those of us enjoying the relative luxury of life in the US.

AcroChik
9th Oct 2006, 16:38
"I suppose the billions of dollars the government is giving to the oil industry in the forms of grants and tax relief is a good investment."

The most famous tax break given to the oil industry was the Oil Depletion Allowance, passed by congress in 1926 while Calvin Coolidge, a Republican, was in the White House. Coolidge, a strict free-market conservative, did not favor the legislation, but declined to use his veto power.

The ODA remained in force for 49 years, until it was repealed in 1975 while Gerald Ford, also a Republican, was president. Ford favored repeal of the legislation. Ford's VP was Nelson Rockefeller, grandson of John D Rockefeller Sr, who had formed the famous Standard Oil cartel.

I'm not thoroughly familiar with the tax breaks currently in force that favor the oil industry, and am hoping you can shed some light on them. Similarly, outright grants to the industry are an area of ignorance for me, and I'm hoping you can point me to some to expand my knowledge.

Thanks :)

Crepello
9th Oct 2006, 16:58
Hmm, lots of heat from you, comrade noflow but very little light. You mention a few issues which the US could handle differently but you fail to propose solutions. Anyway, I digress; here's a few points to consider:

- Standards of living are indeed lower overseas... so why would anyone want to leave the US? Passports are not neded as most (legal) citizens carry state-issued ID, unlike in less enlightened countries.

- Those tax breaks were necessary to fund the TV studios in which the NASA moon landings were faked.

- American electrical appliances use half the voltage of their European counterparts, and are thus twice as efficient.

:E :E :E

Re-entry
9th Oct 2006, 16:59
Just to keep it simple. The Alaska Permanent Fund Dividend check was USD 1106.96. This year.

kwachon
9th Oct 2006, 17:11
Well I did something real bad when I was a child in England, my punishment?, married a Texan and have been here for 12 years now. Just returned from Saudi and have to say, Texas is preferable, Weather is great, flying is outstanding and I get to look at a naked statue (insert wife here) daily. no ill effects thus far...:{ ;)

Loose rivets
9th Oct 2006, 17:24
and I get to look at a naked statue (insert wife here) daily. no ill effects thus far...:{ ;)


Erm, is this something I don't know about...but should.:E

con-pilot
9th Oct 2006, 17:32
Wow, what happened to this lighthearted (at least it was when I went to bed last night) thread?

I'm a going to try to get this back on track.

First arcniz, no offense taken or even consider my friend.:ok:

Now the 'dry' counties in the Dallas/Ft Worth metroplex is really confusing. One can drive around for hours looking for a store to purchase alcohol if you are not familiar with the area.

Once I checked into a hotel in Dallas and that afternoon I went downstairs to have a drink. Upon inquiring where the bar was located I was infromed that the hotel was in a 'dry' county and there was no bar.

I then inquired as to where one could get an adult beverage of my choice. The lady at the front desk pointed across the street at another hotel and informed me that I could have a drink in the bar at that hotel because it was in a 'wet' county.

You guessed it, I check out of the 'dry' hotel, waked across the street and checked into the 'wet' hotel.

brickhistory
9th Oct 2006, 17:55
Actually more like a mistyping than a misspelling but thanks for your effort as the spelling gestapo.

Enjoy life in your fantasy world. I suppose you probably think Saddam is behind 9/11 and there really are WMD's in Iraq. And I suppose you're perfectly content with the assault that has been mounted on the Constitution and a government that is working hard to suppress the judiciary branch. Remember that system of checks and balances we're supposed to have with a combination of legislative, executive, and judicial branches? Any of that familiar?

We invaded a sovereign nation without just cause but you're happy so long as you can get cheap gas for your SUV. Typical.

Lazy and stupid isn't that far off.

The problem is that until you get off your ass and visit other continents you have no clue how good we have it in the USA. Not sure if you know this but in many countries a car is a luxury item. In Asia you'll see Mum, Dad, and a couple of kids travelling around on a 125 cc motorcycle. I've seen as many as 5 on one of those. In much of the world good clean drinking water is hard to come by. Many people suffer from inadequate nutrition. Many live in a rather ramshackle hut. Not everyone has electricity 24 hours a day and some places still don't have indoor plumbing.

Ever seen the bumper sticker "Live simply so others may simply live"
That isn't so far fetched once you realize the difference between our standard of living and the rest of the world with the exception of much of Europe. We consume an overwheming percentage of the world's resources. We create far more pollution than we need to. Cheap gas prevents any real breakthroughs in reducing consumption. If we truly were a "Christian nation" as the right wing proclaims maybe we'd actually take some real steps to help our fellow humans. We'd squander fewer of the world's resources and instead of invading and killing people over oil perhaps we'd work to raise living standards and increase the average lifespan of folks in the third world.

Actually making sacrifices to help the rest of humanity is probably easier to sell to "non-believers" than those of us enjoying the relative luxury of life in the US.

Firstly, do try and get your points into one post. It saves bandwidth, time/electricity on the computer and every little erg helps....

Secondly, I guess we discovered how you react to criticism. Fine sense of irony you have, sir.

Next, I admit to having trouble keeping up with your leap from bashing Texas to how the USA is evil to save the planet, but then I am American, thus, in your own words, perhaps not suited to deep thoughts. Thank God you can do it for all of us. I choose to speak for myself and not presume for the rest of America.

Fourthly, regarding your defense of the three branches of US government, I thank you for the reminder, but do have to say that I'd put up my academic credits against yours anyday. But then I could be wrong in that you may have lots of time to study sitting right seat in your Embraer. "Gear up, gear down." By the way, in case you haven't noticed, the price of fuel has a direct impact on your livelihood as well (assuming you posted honestly in your profile). And what about those nasty greenhouse gases your little a/c produces?

I love my SUV. And my Cadillac. Next point?

Perhaps I might want to travel the world, see areas where the population's misery simply beggars belief. I'll have to think about doing that in my next career. I've not seen enough sh*tholes and folks not blessed like we are in my life yet. Perhaps the actions of the political adminstrations have a direct impact on my life unlike yours. Perhaps not. Thank God (goodness for those who don't believe) I have you to guide my moral compass.

Just curious, how much and/or what do you do to improve the lot of those less fortunate? Drive a car? Use plastic? Drink bottled water? Use electricity drying your hair? Attend sporting/music/cultural events?

By the way, a little light reading will show you that all those other places that aren't as fortunate as we are in America are going hell for leather for that same standard of living at much higher levels of pollution, industrial waste, etc. But that's different, I guess.

I enjoy reading your rant; it's like hearing my 16 year old spout off. All thrust and no vector.

brickhistory
9th Oct 2006, 18:00
I did love it, that's why I left.;)


Just move or give up your citizenship? If the latter, then I'm impressed. If the former, BFD.

M80
9th Oct 2006, 18:05
BFD???

doodly doodly doodly (filling post)

brickhistory
9th Oct 2006, 18:13
BFD???

Big F**in' Deal

chuks
9th Oct 2006, 18:46
It makes sense in a way because it puts one degree of separation between Christianity and history, perhaps? You don't refer directly to the birth of Christ but to the eras marked by the birth of Christ, ether before or after. It makes sense to me, not that that is a guarantee of sensibility, of course.

On the other hand, perhaps some of my country cousins just see another commie plot like the metric system and Darwin's Theory of Evolution in this substitution of CE for AD and its implicit distancing from Christian belief. Stick to that old-time religion and you will do just fine, so long as you can stay down on the farm. Nothing wrong with that as long as you can avoid being flamed by furriners running around on the internet, I suppose.

Part of the problem is the internet itself. 50 years ago that unfortunate teacher's plight would have gone largely unnoticed, yet here you have people from all over the world made aware of this minor outbreak of small-minded prudery in one of our lesser States, such that they can feel entitled to draw sweeping conclusions about what it means in relation to all of Texas and the greater USA. That is as unfair as the way we Yanks often return home from three weeks in Europe to tell everyone all about it in conclusive detail.

Davaar
9th Oct 2006, 19:21
[QUOTE=chuks;2898800]
1. It makes sense in a way because it puts one degree of separation between Christianity and history, perhaps?
2. perhaps some of my country cousins just see another commie plot like the metric system QUOTE]

Oh well, chuks, I do agree that you state the intent quite fairly, but does the intent actually work? For it to work I must, if I were of the "newly included" camp, accept that your measure is "common" to me. Why should I? If I were Moslem, why not choose a datum of, by a happy chance, AM and PM if we could all agree to go with the Latin, which is around 700 um? And if I were Jewish, why not a datum of whatever is convenient to them?

Your second point is more serious. Are you telling me the metric system is not a commie plot?

tony draper
9th Oct 2006, 19:25
Is the other system is a Imperialist plot? :rolleyes:

Flying Lawyer
9th Oct 2006, 19:32
chucks
It makes as much sense to me as 'Happy Holiday' instead of Merry Christmas - even without the obvious irony given the origin of the word holiday - or the idea the city of Boston had last year (eventually abandoned), of ending the tradition of the civic Christmas tree and replacing it with a 'Holiday tree'. :rolleyes:

Your assertion that BCE and CE have superseded BC and AD is rather sweeping, and not correct. Some people use the new terms, others don't.


West Coast
How far are you going back?
What moved you to take a shot at "Euros"?
Unusually I concede but, as far as I can tell, most of the posters criticising America or making patronsing generalisations about entire states are American - whether or not they live there now.

Newforest
9th Oct 2006, 19:54
Just move or give up your citizenship? If the latter, then I'm impressed. If the former, BFD.

Residency probably voided, wife was the citizen. Our town didn't believe in free speech or alternative opinions and this was CA!

AcroChik
9th Oct 2006, 20:09
Orange County, eh?

(for those not in the know, bastion of deeply conservative politics)

As an aside, I just noticed the required time between posts has been changed ~ again? ~ to 120 seconds.

brickhistory
9th Oct 2006, 20:11
Ummm, the same could be said for Berkeley, but from the other political bent. Not exactly known for accomodating conservative views/speakers.

AcroChik
9th Oct 2006, 20:15
There's truth in what you say, Brick. We were out and about in the Bay Area Peoples Republic during part of our California holiday this summer. Political discussion was less tolerant than one finds on an internet forum. We just kept our mouths shut, as it wasn't worth the trouble. Minds opened up as we moved a bit south into Monterey County, Pacific Grove, Pebble Beach, etc. There, at least, dialogue was possible.

con-pilot
9th Oct 2006, 22:58
Hey, can't we get back to poking fun at Texas?:E

AcroChik
9th Oct 2006, 23:15
Sure...

The best BBQ I've ever eaten was in OK, not TX :p

And the best TexMex food I've ever eaten was in UT, not TX :O

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
9th Oct 2006, 23:50
Hey, can't we get back to poking fun at Texas?



how com nobody's mentioned the freaking weather as a valid reason to not live here? :yuk:

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
9th Oct 2006, 23:54
At the risk of starting a cross river war here and with apologies in advance to my good friend Con Pilot and also with the full intention of soon pulling this post that teeters over the edge of good taste, I have to say at least here in Texas, we don't have a town with a name like the one mentioned in the title of this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=247160) :E

con-pilot
10th Oct 2006, 02:10
Paedophilia OK?

Hummmmmmm, I need to look further into this town, as it does not show up on the map of Oklahoma.

However, as well as I know my adopted Oklahomans they may, just may mind you, have tried to name a town here after Philadelphia and that was the closest they could come to on the spelling.

And one must remember that to get to Maud Oklahoma from Oklahoma City one must go through Bowlegs Oklahoma.

Wait a minute, this is about dumping on Texas, not Oklahoma.:p

No fear my friend Onan.;)

Fliegenmong
10th Oct 2006, 04:14
No Comprendo – what has a standardised weight sys. Got to do with living in Texas?!?!

Arkansas on the other hand……..

noflow
10th Oct 2006, 04:25
Hmm, lots of heat from you, comrade noflow- Standards of living are indeed lower overseas... so why would anyone want to leave the US? Passports are not neded as most (legal) citizens carry state-issued ID, unlike in less enlightened countries.

- American electrical appliances use half the voltage of their European counterparts, and are thus twice as efficient.
:E :E :E

Silly me. Why would anyone want to explore outside the US? Heck I could be scuba diving in a lake in Oklahoma instead of in the Seychelles.

I lived in Europe for a few years. Less enlightened? How many American kids speak 3 languages and actually have some understanding of the world around them?

If the last bit is for real I'll send you a physics book.

West Coast
10th Oct 2006, 04:45
Flying Lawyer
I speak of the most recent genocide in Europe.

Loose rivets
10th Oct 2006, 05:37
Well, I 'spose it's up to me to mention the weather. Turned out nice again today...how about you Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh! ? Bit muy freo up there in't it?

obgraham
10th Oct 2006, 05:49
Why are we the only significant industrialized nation that refused to sign the Kyoto Protocol?ummmmm...would that be because Bill Clinton never submitted it to the Senate for ratification? However, the US (Al Gore no less) has indeed signed the protocol

Cheerio
10th Oct 2006, 08:52
I used to live in Lafayette, and had to drive over I-10 to Houston at least once a week. There was a big ol' road sign as you crossed the Sabine River on the La Tx border that said something like

Orange 3miles
Beaumont 28 miles
Houston etc
San Antonio even more
El Paso 900 miles

It used to tantalise me, tried to do El Paso (thoughts of Lee Van Cleef & Clint Eastwood) one weekend, but failed miserably running out of time, turning back somewhere near Junction. Its BIG!

In fact did you know that the easternmost side of 1-10 in Texas at Orange is closer to its start on the Florida Atlantic coast than El Paso in West Texas?
And also that El Paso is closer to Los Angeles on the Pacific coast than Orange in East Texas!

rick1128
10th Oct 2006, 09:50
Really? How kind of you to make the observation. And how many Texans have flown airliners into tall buildings? And how many other religions are there in the "heartland" of America vs Saudi Arabia? And do those religions live side by side with others without strapping on the latest C-4 fashions?
The thread starter subject is ludicrous admittedly, but to make this comparision is just a bit much. And, of course, there are no close-minded groups in your little corner of the world? How wonderful for you.......

Unfortunately it is the "Oral Minority" that causes much of the contraversy in these matters. But as for bombings, yes some of them have bombed women's health clinic because they do not believe in some of the services that these clinics legally supply. And others also murder medical providers who do the same. Putting these people and organizations in such fear that in many cases they stop providing any services. And as far as I am concerned the people and organizations who conduct such illegal acts meet the definition of terrorist and treated as such. Unfortunately the present government is totally beholding to the religious far right to put a stop to this crap. And the normal everyday joe on the street just wants to be left alone. And add in the panty waist judges.

In some ways that there is religious tolerance in the US compared with other countries where the various religions are i open warfare. But on the other hand, there is religious intolerance especially on the part of the far religious right. Remember this is the country that gave the world the Salem Witch trails. But then again Europe has it's own history of regilious intolerance.

rick1128
10th Oct 2006, 10:01
It would be fascinating to see how Jesus would be received today. Most likely he would be written off as a pacifist hippie socialist religious nut. He would especially be rejected by the people who claim to be ardent Christians.

Probably also be written off as gay because of his hanging with the apsoles.

AcroChik
10th Oct 2006, 12:21
Rather than reading the wee-wee match you two insist on having, I've been hoping that noflow would share his broad knowledge of the specifics of current tax breaks and grants given by the US government to the oil/gas industry.

Re-entry
10th Oct 2006, 12:27
Time out. This thread is getting too serious again. What happened to poking fun at the not so big state of TX.
Out in the west texas town of El Paso, I fell in love with a mexican girl...

brickhistory
10th Oct 2006, 12:32
Time out. This thread is getting too serious again. What happened to poking fun at the not so big state of TX.
Out in the west texas town of El Paso, I fell in love with a mexican girl...

While checking out San Antonio this past summer, the Mrs and I were struck by the unbelievable number of the largest pick-ups and SUVs.

Seems to be a true Texan, one must drive either the four-door crew cab pick-up with the long bed or the Excursion/Suburban model of SUV. And regardless of what one drives, it must have the brush guard.

I was just a little out of place and definitely outclassed in the willy-waving auto contest in my Volvo (I'm just fortunate that they let me live!).

Loki
10th Oct 2006, 12:43
My next door neighbour is from Texas, so was her predecessor, who used to do really nice barbecue parties on the 4th of July. Recently on holiday in Alaska, I met lots of Texans (?). All of them seemed like jolly good types. Perhaps the "export" version is different from those who stay at home.

vaqueroaero
10th Oct 2006, 12:52
While checking out San Antonio this past summer, the Mrs and I were struck by the unbelievable number of the largest pick-ups and SUVs.
Seems to be a true Texan, one must drive either the four-door crew cab pick-up with the long bed or the Excursion/Suburban model of SUV. And regardless of what one drives, it must have the brush guard.
I was just a little out of place and definitely outclassed in the willy-waving auto contest in my Volvo (I'm just fortunate that they let me live!).
Having moved here from California my wife made the observation to me that if a Texan runs you over in his huge truck he would at least have the decency to come back and see if you're OK. California on the other hand......
Dry towns? Yep..live in one of those. If I need an adult libation then a quick trip a couple of miles down the road to a tiny town that consists soley of 2 liquor stores and a police station.

Re-entry
10th Oct 2006, 13:15
Brick, you are lucky. For every SUV, they have 4 shotguns. They'd have five except they can't count that far.

brickhistory
10th Oct 2006, 13:19
Brick, you are lucky. For every SUV, they have 4 shotguns.

And I'd be fine with that. Had my own .45 under the seat. Didn't mind the giant pick-ups, etc, just wished I'd brought mine vs the Volvo. Should have included in my previous post that we were checking out San Antonio with an eye toward retiring there post-USAF. As Mrs is a Texan and it's a nice place, it's on the list. I like Texas!

Although Sedona is my first choice. Think I'll fit in there?! Yikes!

Re-entry
10th Oct 2006, 13:39
Brick, are you completely demented? TX a nice place? It's a desert full of uneducated gun-toting republican religious right crazies. And it's way too hot.
The ONLY reason to STAY there is if you run some oil company. Even then you could do that from a distance in this, the internet age.
Go somewhere nice, like oregon or alaska. Be nice to yourself.

angels
10th Oct 2006, 13:45
Re-entry - Thinking you're being a little harsh there, but agree I wouldn't want to live there.

Seem to recall one of the main drags in El Paso was Lee Trevino Boulevard. Crossed the border into Mexico at El Paso and had to bung a buck to a passport guy to give me a stamp!!

brickhistory
10th Oct 2006, 13:51
Brick, are you completely demented? TX a nice place? It's a desert full of uneducated gun-toting republican religious right crazies. And it's way too hot.
The ONLY reason to STAY there is if you run some oil company. Even then you could do that from a distance in this, the internet age.
Go somewhere nice, like oregon or alaska. Be nice to yourself.

Let's see:
gun-toting: check
uneducated: depends on how you view the Georgia state school system!
Republican: I prefer conservative vs Republican, since I don't agree with all Republican views but generally much more so than most Democratic views, so check (-)
Religious: I believe, so check (?)
Right crazies: Depends on the day

Too hot? No such thing, take a sweat over shivering ANY day! BTW, east Texas is most assuredly green! West Texas does get monotonous until nearly El Paso, but it has its strong points. Will take that over the DC and surrounding crowded environs any day.

Oregon; not been there yet.
Alaska: born there, visited often, lovely scenery, interesting people, way too cold for too long!

Flip Flop Flyer
10th Oct 2006, 13:54
noflow

In much of the world good clean drinking water is hard to come by. Many people suffer from inadequate nutrition. Many live in a rather ramshackle hut. Not everyone has electricity 24 hours a day and some places still don't have indoor plumbing.

Are you talking about some 3rd world backwater nation, or California/Mississippi/South Carolina? :E

Re-entry
10th Oct 2006, 13:57
Wow. For a born Alaskan, you sure have gone south. Good luck and I hope you recover. You will be back, I'm sure. The greatland will always be great.

Mr Lexx
10th Oct 2006, 14:11
Going back to the BC/AD, why do we mix both languages? Surely, if we were to use latin/latin, BC would become Ante Domino, therefore the time before Christ would become AD as would the time after Christ. Everyone is happy as there is no english mention of God, Christ or religion, and no-one now understands how the date system works anymore.

Unitam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant

noflow
10th Oct 2006, 15:24
Rather than reading the wee-wee match you two insist on having, I've been hoping that noflow would share his broad knowledge of the specifics of current tax breaks and grants given by the US government to the oil/gas industry.

According to your profile you're probably inverted somewhere over NYC, undoubtedly spending your parent's money. Must be too busy to pick up a newspaper or even do a google search. It's a busy morning so I just did a quick search and here's an article that summarizes things pretty well. If you suffer from ADD and don't want to read the whole article the specific number is $8 billion in tax breaks thanks to the touted Energy Bill.

Published on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 by TomPaine.com
The Do-Nothing Energy Bill
by Navin Nayak

If insanity is indeed doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results, someone ought to check in on the U.S. Congress. For the fifth straight year, the House of Representatives is set to debate an energy bill chock-full of corporate welfare for the oil, gas, coal and nuclear industries and woefully short on innovative policy solutions to address our nation's energy problems. Despite widespread public and political opposition-and countless analyses documenting the futility of the bill-Congress returns year after year with a virtual carbon copy of the original energy bill introduced in 2001.

While the price tag of the bill has fluctuated over the years between excessive and exorbitant, one thing has remained constant: It will do nothing to solve the nation's energy problems. It will not lower gas prices, not lower electricity prices, not even lower our dependence on oil. Last year, the Energy Information Administration (the analytical arm of President Bush's Department of Energy) concluded that despite spending billions of dollars, the energy bill would result in an 85 percent increase in U.S. imports of oil by 2025.

Just in time for Earth Day-with gasoline prices and oil profits hovering at record levels-and America's dependence on oil increasing by the day, the House has decided to re-introduce virtually the exact same do-nothing bill as last year.

The latest House bill contains more than $80 billion in authorized spending and another $8 billion in tax breaks, 95 percent of which benefit the oil, gas, coal and nuclear industries. Don't check your glasses, you read it right-the House is actually proposing to spend $88 billion dollars on a bill that will neither save a drop of oil, nor help consumers at the pump. (Click here for a cost analysis of the bill from Taxpayers for Common Sense.)

In a year when ExxonMobil reported record profits in excess of $25 billion, Congress wants to give the oil and gas industry another $3.2 billion in tax breaks, equivalent to 40 percent of the total tax package. Among the most egregious provisions is a tax break that will allow the industry to write off the cost of exploring for deposits-even in instances when they actually strike oil.

In addition to these direct subsidies, the energy bill would cost taxpayers billions more by forcing states and local communities to pay for the cleanup costs associated with decontaminating drinking water polluted with the gasoline additive MTBE. The energy bill would shield the oil industry from any responsibility for the contamination problem; although oil companies are responsible for putting the chemical in our gasoline, taxpayers will be forced to pay to get it out of our water. Who knew that the free market came with so many free lunches?

While the energy bill is loaded up with billions of dollars in giveaways to big oil, conspicuously absent from the bill are any provisions that would actually reduce America’s dependence on oil. Requiring an increase in the fuel efficiency of our cars—currently at a 25-year low to 40 miles per gallon would cost taxpayers nothing but would reduce America’s oil consumption by 5 million barrels a day.

As much as Congress has tried, the reality facing this nation is unchanged. Each day, the United States uses more than 20 million barrels of oil. In one year, we use in excess of 7 billion barrels of oil, or 25 percent of the world’s oil production. But the United States only possesses 2-3 percent of all known oil reserves in the world; this is simply not a problem that we can drill our way out of.

If Congress or the president had taken steps five years ago to increase the fuel efficiency of our vehicles, we would already be climbing out of the dependency hole we’ve fallen into. Instead, our politicians in Washington continue to dig deeper, hoping to find an answer that doesn’t exist. Call me crazy, but that just doesn't make sense.

Navin Nayak is an environmental advocate with the U.S. Public Interest Research Group (PIRG). For more detail about the energy bill from U.S. PIRG, click here.

West Coast
10th Oct 2006, 15:48
Brick
You're a brave man to drive a Volvo through Texas.

"Go somewhere nice, like oregon or alaska. Be nice to yourself"

Haven't been to Alaska enough to develop an opinion about the culture, but Oregon is the last place in the world I would want to live. It rains too much, the population (in places) is far to liberal and the women are very granola like.

Kind of like Europe.

brickhistory
10th Oct 2006, 15:49
Brick
You're a brave man to drive a Volvo through Texas.
"Go somewhere nice, like oregon or alaska. Be nice to yourself"
Haven't been to Alaska enough to develop an opinion about the culture, but Oregon is the last place in the world I would want to live. It rains too much, the population (in places) is far to liberal and the women are very granola like.
Kind of like Europe.


Outstanding summation! :ok:

AcroChik
10th Oct 2006, 16:08
If insanity is indeed doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results, someone ought to check in on the U.S. Congress. For the fifth straight year, the House of Representatives is set to debate an energy bill chock-full of corporate welfare for the oil, gas, coal and nuclear industries and woefully short on innovative policy solutions to address our nation's energy problems. Despite widespread public and political opposition-and countless analyses documenting the futility of the bill-Congress returns year after year with a virtual carbon copy of the original energy bill introduced in 2001.

In other words, the bill is not law. The normal processes of republican democracy go on: introducing, debating and voting on legislation. If the bill is passed, the benefits will flow to the industries. If not, they won't.

You haven't answered my question, which was to please tell me about some current tax benefits and grants now being received by the oil and gas industries.

Your ad hominem remarks are so sad and innacurate that they need not receive a reply.

chuks
10th Oct 2006, 16:25
Dear West Coast,

Could you elaborate a bit? How is it the women (or do you mean the wo - men?) of Oregon and Europe are like 'granola'?

In a way, I have to agree with you, speaking from personal experience, but I think you are painting in very broad strokes.

In Europe I suppose you mean 'muesli-like.' Gee, most of the women? This will come as a shock to the southern Italians or the Czechs, at least. There are lots of lookers everywhere you go in Naples and Prague, just to name two European cities. Of course, no, you couldn't drive around in your F-150 gawking at them, waving and playing 'La Cucaracha' on your musical air horns; you would get stuck trying to go around an Old European corner in the inner city.

There is that, plus having to leave your guns at home. Viagra is readily available if having to go gunless causes you any potency problems.

You do get the odd serious-minded bint who wears hand-knitted woollen socks with her open-toed sandals and refuses to shave her legs, yes, but they are everywhere to be found nowadays, even in Texas. (That is a wild guess, but I am sure they must be there in measurable quantities in the few semi-civilised regions such as San Antonio.)

Germany even has its own version of, for instance, Orange County in the former East Germany. You can find out-and-out fascists there who hate and fear foreigners just as much as those from the darker regions of the States. Many of them would probably approve of firing teachers who tried to teach anything but the old German values but this usually brings them into conflict with the post-1945 change in the laws there. It's just too bad that they are so ignorant about their like-thinking yahoos across the pond; it might make them feel better about themselves to know that they are not alone.

noflow
10th Oct 2006, 16:55
In other words, the bill is not law. The normal processes of republican democracy go on: introducing, debating and voting on legislation. If the bill is passed, the benefits will flow to the industries. If not, they won't.

You haven't answered my question, which was to please tell me about some current tax benefits and grants now being received by the oil and gas industries.



The bill was passed missy.

From www.whitehouse.gov
"President Signs Energy Policy Act"

And that was back in 2005.

Sad that more Americans don't see what's going on.
Oh, and as this article points out I was sadly mistaken about the 8 BILLION in tax breaks for the energy companies. It grew to 14.5 BILLION. Here's the pertinent sentence if you don't want to read the whole article - "The new 1,724-page energy law, four years in the making, will provide $14.5 billion in tax breaks."


Copy of Post article:
Bush Signs Energy Bill, Cheers Steps Toward Self-Sufficiency
Measure Includes Billions in Tax Breaks for Industry

By Jim VandeHei and Justin Blum
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, August 9, 2005; Page A03

ALBUQUERQUE, Aug. 8 -- President Bush signed the first national energy legislation in more than a decade on Monday, hailing the measure as a smart way to make Americans more secure and less dependent on foreign oil.

At a bill-signing ceremony at the Energy Department's Sandia National Laboratories, Bush said the new energy policy will go a long way toward weaning Americans off imported oil by encouraging the domestic production of oil and natural gas and greater use of cleaner-burning, domestic energy sources such as nuclear power, ethanol and liquefied natural gas.

"I'm confident that one day Americans will look back on this bill as a vital step toward a more secure and more prosperous nation that is less dependent on foreign sources of energy," Bush said.

But independent energy analysts cautioned that with crude oil prices hitting new highs, consumers should not expect the new law to push down gas prices or reduce U.S. reliance on Middle East oil soon, if ever. Bush acknowledged that it will "take years of focused effort to alleviate those problems."

The new 1,724-page energy law, four years in the making, will provide $14.5 billion in tax breaks. The recipients will include producers of oil, natural gas, coal and nuclear power, as well as smaller incentives for consumers who use cleaner-burning fuels produced in this country. Analysts say it is unlikely most Americans will see a noticeable improvement in their energy costs in the short term. But supporters said the new law is designed to provide a long-term lift to the fuels of the future, including cleaner-burning coal and a new generation of gasoline-electric hybrid vehicles.

"It's not a bill for today or necessarily tomorrow -- it's for the future," said Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee Chairman Pete V. Domenici (R-N.M.). He was a chief sponsor of the bill and took part in the signing ceremony.

The price of crude oil hit a new high of more than $63 a barrel Monday. The national average price of a gallon of gas was $2.339 yesterday, according to the AAA auto club. The nation imports a net 58 percent of its oil, some of it from Saudi Arabia and other nations where anti-U.S. sentiments run high. By 2025, the United States will be importing 68 percent of its oil, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration.

The energy bill provides tax breaks and other incentives to encourage new nuclear plants, cleaner-burning coal facilities, and production of more oil and natural gas. It also offers incentives to produce energy from wind and other renewable sources and to make homes and office buildings more efficient.

"It's Christmas in August for big energy, and consumers get lumps of coal," said Anna Aurilio, legislative director for U.S. PIRG, an advocacy group that works on environmental and consumer issues.

The bill exempts oil and gas industries from some clean-water laws, streamlines permits for oil wells and power lines on public lands, and helps the hydropower industry appeal environmental restrictions. One provision would repeal a Depression-era law that has prevented consolidation of public utilities, potentially transforming the nation's electricity market.

The law also seeks to increase another kind of imported energy: liquefied natural gas. The legislation gives the federal government ultimate authority to approve new liquefied natural gas terminals, which supporters said would lead to more being approved.

The final bill dropped many of the controversial amendments that blocked passage of earlier versions, including authorizing oil drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and giving the petroleum industry protection against product-defect lawsuits for the gasoline additive known as MBTE.

The government forecasts that ANWR oil would slightly diminish U.S. dependence on foreign oil by 2025. Separate budget legislation, which is to be considered later this year, would open the refuge to oil and natural gas drilling.

Analysts said the biggest step lawmakers could have taken to reduce foreign oil dependence would have been to increase vehicle mileage standards. But Congress rejected that approach, saying doing so would result in the loss of U.S. auto jobs and the production of vehicles that are unsafe -- arguments disputed by environmentalists and some analysts. Instead, lawmakers focused on fixes backed by powerful lobbies and influential constituencies. Ethanol, for instance, is a big winner under the new law because it is often produced from corn, a popular and plentiful crop in the Midwest, where many states are considered up for grabs in next year's election.

noflow
10th Oct 2006, 17:12
I apologize if I've been overly harsh on akrochik. My admittedly strong response is because she symbolizes much of what's wrong in the modern US. Presumably she's an educated professional since she can afford the luxury of an expensive hobby like aerobatics. But I digress. What bothers me sorely is that we've got people who are blissfully ignorant of what's going on in Washington DC. Mussolini (WW2 Italian dictator for those of you unfamiliar) opined that "fascism should more rightly be called corporatism, as it is a merger between state and corporate power." Combine that view with the attacks mounted on anyone disagreeing with the administration and what direction are we headed? Bush is widenning the gap between rich and poor. Every major economic policy he's introduced has benefitted only the richest people and the largest corporations. Yeah we got a tax break for everyone except about half of the tax break goes to the top two percent. He's created a monster deficit by going to war in Iraq while the people who benefit most economically from the war are doing the least to help pay for it.

AcroChik
10th Oct 2006, 17:23
It's really baffling that asking a straight-forward question in an internet forum leads one to being catagorized as "...what's wrong with the US..."

If only I was so all-powerful that my flaws and perfections could influence the world into being exactly as I'd like it to be, then noflow would show others the courtesy he's been afforded by yours truly.

The fellow's got no clue as to my socio-economic background, my parents' wealth or lack thereof, my source of income or the amount, nor how I've spent my life between birth and grad school. His knowledge of my religious or political affiliations is, likewise, nil.

It must be glorious to be all-knowing, able to pigeon-hole everyone (tutti-sistimati) based on the questions they ask. Or, perhaps its a lonely and impoverished life. Only the actor can know for sure. But, hey, he pushes throttles on Jungle Jet. He's a god ~ and thus omniscient.

slim_slag
10th Oct 2006, 17:28
...and the women are very granola like.
Kind of like Europe.Yeh, some are, but they have this 'je ne sais quois' which those Californian babes are simply missing. If I had a dollar for every californian guy who asked me to get them a European gal because the Californian girls were so shallow I'd be a wealthy man. Then of course if I had a dollar for every californian babe who wanted me to find them a European man because the Californian dudes were so shallow I'd be just as wealthy :)

Crepello
10th Oct 2006, 17:47
Ah, but California girls specialise in "je ne sais pas". :E (Okay, cheap shot!)

FL: My take is that "Happy Holidays" refers to the holiday period, i.e. xmas, boxing day, new year's eve and day. And sometimes Thanksgiving. Furthermore, inclement weather can leave one spending Dec 25th in an airport, so it's a shame to constrain the greeting to just one day...

Conversely, this is a great place to be during a hot summer. Texans have acknowledged the concept of air conditioning and installed it, together with the required electrical capacity. Europe remains, erm, quaintly backward in this area.

And finally, my dear noflow: How many kids from the British inner cities can speak even one language convincingly, or identify even key landmarks in their locale? I'm not bashing the kids themselves, merely suggesting that European state provisions are imperfect. Perhaps you've a solution to this?

noflow
10th Oct 2006, 17:51
It's really baffling that asking a straight-forward question in an internet forum leads one to being catagorized as "...what's wrong with the US..."


It must be glorious to be all-knowing, able to pigeon-hole everyone (tutti-sistimati) based on the questions they ask. Or, perhaps its a lonely and impoverished life. Only the actor can know for sure. But, hey, he pushes throttles on Jungle Jet. He's a god ~ and thus omniscient.

Sorry I've been so hard on you for being a bit ignorant of current affairs. I see a president leading us on the road towards a cliff. What do you see?
I think if people were more informed about what their elected officals are up to they might think (and vote) differently.

BTW I know "tutti" means all or everyone but I'm struggling with "sistimati." Perhaps a spelling error on your part? I even checked my Italian dictionary. It's not Latin either.

Not particularly lonely but a bit impoverished as most regional airline captains are. I think you're on to something doing this flying thing as a hobby as opposed to making a living at it.

Speaking of God have you heard the joke that goes - "what's the difference between god and a captain?"

A: God doesn't think he's a captain.

Just as you've pointed out I'm a bit ignorant of your specific circumstances I think you're a bit guilty of the same thing.

Congrats on finishing grad school and finding a way to support the aerobatic hobby at such a young age. I was still wasting time in the military at your age.

noflow
10th Oct 2006, 18:02
And finally, my dear noflow: How many kids from the British inner cities can speak even one language convincingly, or identify even key landmarks in their locale? I'm not bashing the kids themselves, merely suggesting that European state provisions are imperfect. Perhaps you've a solution to this?

Regrettably I had no contact with the inner city children of British cities. The poor in every country are usually the least educated which perpetuates their lack of opportunities and makes a climb up the socio-economic ladder particularly difficult. I did meet kids in the middle class suburb where I lived and in the course of travelling around Europe and was quite impressed with their educational backgrounds. I think on a whole Europeans place more emphasis on funding education than we do in the US. Standards are relatively high. Sadly much of our tax revenue is shuttled to the military-industrial complex. It all boils down to the "bread versus guns" debate.

I'll close with a few words from General and former Presiden Eisenhower

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together. "

AcroChik
10th Oct 2006, 18:16
Sorry I've been so hard on you for being a bit ignorant of current affairs. I see a president leading us on the road towards a cliff. What do you see?

I see your posts.

I think if people were more informed about what their elected officals are up to they might think (and vote) differently.
BTW I know "tutti" means all or everyone but I'm struggling with "sistimati." Perhaps a spelling error on your part? I even checked my Italian dictionary. It's not Latin either.

It's an Italian idiomatic expression for putting "everything in its place."

Not particularly lonely but a bit impoverished as most regional airline captains are. I think you're on to something doing this flying thing as a hobby as opposed to making a living at it.

I worked for a regional before entering grad school this August. I instruct on the side.


Speaking of God have you heard the joke that goes - "what's the difference between god and a captain?"
A: God doesn't think he's a captain.

I pulled gear for that guy. But it wasn't you.

Just as you've pointed out I'm a bit ignorant of your specific circumstances I think you're a bit guilty of the same thing.

I haven't said a thing about you personally or otherwise that wasn't derived solely from your posts or profile. And, never would.


Congrats on finishing grad school and finding a way to support the aerobatic hobby at such a young age. I was still wasting time in the military at your age.

Serving our country is never a waste of time (in my uninformed opinion). What one may or may not think of the specific mission is political, and I don't debate such things ~ having once attending the Special Olympics.

Oh... why am I glad I don't live in Texas? The pizza's better here.

noflow
10th Oct 2006, 18:45
Serving our country is never a waste of time (in my uninformed opinion). What one may or may not think of the specific mission is political, and I don't debate such things ~ having once attending the Special Olympics.

Oh... why am I glad I don't live in Texas? The pizza's better here.


Let's just say I did some things in the military that in hindsight don't make me feel all that proud. But I did accomplish the mission so to speak.

Idioms in any language are difficult for non-native speakers or people with limited exposure to the language. My Spanish was always better than Italian.
Your comment about "flying with that guy but it wasn't you" is a bit if an insult. You haven't got a clue what I'm like to work with, only what I post on the web. I've got excellent rapport with my FO's and a better understanding of CRM than you probably think.

We can both agree that food in NYC is among the best in the world.

AcroChik
10th Oct 2006, 19:01
You haven't got a clue what I'm like to work with, only what I post on the web.

Precisely :D

G-CPTN
10th Oct 2006, 19:02
Don't folk that join the military merely have to obey orders?
Why are (many) professional pilots so pompous and convinced they are qualified to criticise those who aren't so blessed (especially young women)? Is it because they form their opinions based on cabin crew?

AcroChik
10th Oct 2006, 19:11
Remember the pilot business card thread?

Generally, I've found cabin crew to be highly trained professionals serious about their work, who could be relied upon to secure the SLF safely... people who could be counted on in the event of any situation. There were glaring (sometimes hysterical) exceptions.

noflow
10th Oct 2006, 19:52
Don't folk that join the military merely have to obey orders?
Why are (many) professional pilots so pompous and convinced they are qualified to criticise those who aren't so blessed (especially young women)? Is it because they form their opinions based on cabin crew?

Legal orders. Only legal orders. Most of the public is unaware that according to UCMJ (uniform code of military justice) a serviceman or servicewoman is specifically obligated to NOT follow orders which they know are illegal.

Any criticism from me is equal opportunity in nature and can be directed towards member of either gender. I find it a bit insulting that you'd assume we have some distorted view of women pilots based on cabin crew. I have female friends working in both ends of the aircraft. People are judged based on their individual actions not by gender. I have certain expectations from my crew, cockpit and cabin, and I will say something if those expectations aren't met. Gender is irrevelant. We've got a job to do and customers to serve. If you think I wouldn't be equally critical of a male with a master's degree that is totally unaware that our government is engaged in massive handouts to the energy industry you're sadly mistaken. Being informed is a civic duty. We're paying a heavy price for ignorance right now. We've lost more servicemen and women in Iraq than were killed in the attacks on the WTC and Pentagon. If Americans were a bit more up to speed on the realities maybe they would have reconsidered their support for the war a bit sooner. Instead we let our so called leaders ridicule the French who turned out to be right in their assertions.

The warning on this forum says "it's not for the weak of heart or those easily offended." In our country we have a saying "if you can't stand the heat, stay away from the fire." So anotherwords don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out whiner.

frostbite
10th Oct 2006, 20:03
Noflow, how come you have a well paid job, you've been on here for three years, yet you haven't felt obliged to contribute anything to help keep it all running?

Just so you can have a pop at me too, as it appears to be your raison d'etre.

Davaar
10th Oct 2006, 20:14
Any criticism from me is equal opportunity in nature and can be directed towards member of either gender.

I think you mean either sex, but we'll leave that for the larger question: How does your "missy" apply to men?

I do not follow internal US news more closely than probably the average outsider. My knowledge of federal oil and gas subsidies is limited to what I read here.

Post # 84: Ms AcroChik asks you for information. You appear to, and for all I know do, write with authority.

Post # 97. You refer Ms AcroChik to an article that refers to a Bill. In Canada, and as it seemed to Ms AcroChik in the USA, a Bill is not law.

Post # 101. You allow you were a bit "harsh" to Ms AcroChik. Some would find other adjectives.

Post # 103. Ms AcroChik comments that a Bill is not law.

Post # 165. You:
(a) tell Ms AcroChik the Bill was passed as, it seems likely in context, you well knew when you made Post # 97, although you did not volunteer that to Ms AcroChik. That stratagem is “suppressio veri”, which means "suppression of the truth" or, even more plainly, a lie by omission, often used by those who lurk in the reeds to catch the unaware or unwary;
(b) address Ms AcroChik by the epithet "missy", which tells me not much about her, but much about you; and
(c) quote from President Eisenhower on the "military-industrial complex". Since this last is not the premise of any argument here, no conclusion follows from it. It is an interesting read, however, and I would not for a moment think it was introduced as a herring, red or otherwise.


.

Crepello
10th Oct 2006, 20:18
OK, noflow, let's shift tack a little. The following excerpts are taken from your (subjective) source:

"A... way to make Americans... less dependent on foreign oil... toward weaning Americans off imported oil."

"The [tax break] recipients will include... consumers who use cleaner-burning fuels produced in this country... including cleaner-burning coal and a new generation of gasoline-electric hybrid vehicles."

"The energy bill... encourage[s] new nuclear plants, cleaner-burning coal facilities, and production of more oil and natural gas [and] incentives to produce energy from wind and other renewable sources and to make homes and office buildings more efficient."

Perhaps you could indicate whether you support the case for addressing these issues? If not, what alternatives would you table, and how would you see them through to execution?

noflow
10th Oct 2006, 20:19
Noflow, how come you have a well paid job, you've been on here for three years, yet you haven't felt obliged to contribute anything to help keep it all running?
Just so you can have a pop at me too, as it appears to be your raison d'etre

Fair question.
And if I posted as often as you do I might feel somewhat compelled to donate a pound or two.
However the site appears to be quite well supported by advertisers. I don't think it's realistic for the site's owners to expect to be supported by both readers and advertisers. I'd be more apt to donate if the site was free of all the annoying ads that I have to ignore.
I'd be curious what you perceive as a "well paid job." How much do I actually earn after taxes, medical insurance, and huge medical costs? Over here we have to pay for many things that your government subsidizes. So what is your idea of "well paid" for a person owning a home in a major metro area of the US? $50K USD? 100K? 150K

brickhistory
10th Oct 2006, 20:28
Noflow, how come you have a well paid job, you've been on here for three years, yet you haven't felt obliged to contribute anything to help keep it all running?
Just so you can have a pop at me too, as it appears to be your raison d'etre.


I see noflow continues to insert foot. Turned on blocking so I doubt I'm missing anything, however, I will have to speak up for the self-proclaimed guide for us all.

He stated he was a regional captain, so if so, he's not well paid. Every major US airline has imposed massive paycuts on crews and ground staff (think 50% or more with position downgrades due to seniority. For example, if I had a line number of 100 and yours was 101, you might have been furloughed and I might still have a job but have to move back to the right seat with the subsequent cut in pay to that position as well as losing my higher pay for sitting left seat. Not a pretty sight.)

The US regionals, never known for being generous, are also imposing paycuts. With no real prospects of moving from regional to a major and the large jump in income as in the past, it is not a happy industry and the future doesn't look all that bright.

I'd be p.o'd too if it had happened to me. However, since it's this guy, :ok:

AcroChik
10th Oct 2006, 20:34
As a point of general information, home ownership in the US is extensively subsidized by the government in a few ways:

1. There are a variety of government programs citizens and legal residents can take advantage of to receive complete or partial loan payment guarantees. This enables lenders to re-evaluate the risk low income borrowers might otherwise present.

2. Mortgage interest is deductable ~ under the terms of a formula ~ from one's taxable income, when filing annual income tax returns. This is a tax break. Tax breaks are one form of subsidy. My understanding is that this tax deduction was phased out in the UK over a period of time.

3. Individual states have similar loan guarantee programs that take up some slack for those potential borrowers who do not qualify under the terms of the federal loan guarantees (1., above). Of course, no combination of programs reaches all people.

I'm a student. I paid a little less than US$50.00 for my "log line," thinking it disrespectful to Danny ~ who owns this site ~ to use it and not show my appreciation. Advertising doesn't cover all costs of the site, he says. I believe him. I'd be embarassed not to "share the wealth," such as it is.

About flying for a regional, the "pay," doesn't allow a junior FO to buy much more than basic groceries. Pay scales in the UK/EU are very different, indeed. I would have liked to save my last pay check as a memento ~ it wasn't worth depositing ~ but we were on electronic transfer.

As an addendum: it seems that the most expensive oil on Earth to extract is in North America. The least expensive to extract seems to be elsewhere. It's interesting that Americans complain mightely about $3.00 gas, and complain mightely about the places foreign oil comes from. But if we get weened off of foreign oil our gas prices would go up substantially. Life's full of ironies.

As usual, Davaar's analytic abilities are off the charts.

noflow
10th Oct 2006, 20:35
He stated he was a regional captain, so if so, he's not well paid. [/SIZE]

At least Brickshithouse and I can agree on something.

chuks
10th Oct 2006, 20:59
It's not just the cost of extracting crude oil but that of refining it, when the sulphur content comes into it, just like here on Jet Blast!

Boy, some of you folks sure are crabby! No cat to kick?

Umm, do I have an excuse for not buying a title? No. Do I feel I need one? No. Does that make me a bad person? Perhaps... cheap for sure, but my wife knows that already.

Not to drift too much, but does anyone know what happened to the teacher whose firing kicked this whole thing off? I hope she packed everything into her Volvo and headed for the coast, any coast. Well, so long as it wasn't the Gulf coast.

brickhistory
10th Oct 2006, 21:03
It's not just the cost of extracting crude oil but that of refining it, when the sulphur content comes into it, just like here on Jet Blast!
Boy, some of you folks sure are crabby! No cat to kick?
Umm, do I have an excuse for not buying a title? No. Do I feel I need one? No. Does that make me a bad person? Perhaps... cheap for sure, but my wife knows that already.
Not to drift too much, but does anyone know what happened to the teacher whose firing kicked this whole thing off? I hope she packed everything into her Volvo and headed for the coast, any coast. Well, so long as it wasn't the Gulf coast.


Unfortunately, most teachers can't afford a Volvo.

And I've got a cat, "Here kitty, kitty....!"

Crepello
10th Oct 2006, 21:06
There may have been some unreported elements to the teacher's story. CNN now mentions performance concerns and an early termination to her previous teaching contract. What's unclear is whether these were big issues before the museum incident...

noflow
10th Oct 2006, 21:15
There may have been some unreported elements to the teacher's story. CNN now mentions performance concerns and an early termination to her previous teaching contract. What's unclear is whether these were big issues before the museum incident...

Got a link to that story?

She was at the same school or district for 28 years. So an earlier contract would have been back in the late 1980's.

Be interesting to hear more. I know there was a sentence in the original article about her getting some bad marks on a review after the incident. Sounds like she's being railroaded by a bunch of narrowminded Puritans but please give us a link to any followup stories.

AcroChik
10th Oct 2006, 21:32
Yesterday on CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/10/08/art.teacher.fired.ap/index.html

Imagine how dire her situation would be if the dreaded "E" word had been uttered in her classroom!

obgraham
10th Oct 2006, 23:39
Imagine how dire her situation would be if the dreaded "E" word had been uttered in her classroom!It was worse: she wore flip-flops to work. Next thing you know, she'd show up without hairspray.

Ignition Override
11th Oct 2006, 01:14
Re-entry and Ppruners:
That school board somewhere in Texas must consist of hysterical people.
But the people in the Texas, for the most part (except for certain elements in Austin etc...), believe in personal responsibility, whereas in much of the US, we live in a culture of excuses and legalisms bred and inspired by a certain closed-minded (far left) segment within academia.

Yes, also quite close-minded and intolerant of contrasting viewpoints.
Oregon and Alaska are both attractive states and appear to be normal, especially east of the Cascade Mountains.

Well, with the exception of activities by the 'eco-fascists' (radical Greens or Anarchists-any difference?) west of the Cascades who would rather put hundreds of family providers out of work, in order to avoid the proven factor that predatory larger birds are responsible for the disappearance of a major portion of the endangered spotted owls, not just tree-cutting. Many large forests, as a whole, should be protected, don't get me wrong.

But Oregon, WA state and Alaska are attractive places to live, if we can assume that free speech and open debate could be possible, instead of eco-radikalismus :cool: (what is the icon for the Ultra Smug?). Alles klar dort druben?

Gone2Baja
11th Oct 2006, 06:05
Re-entry and Ppruners:
That school board somewhere in Texas must consist of hysterical people.
But the people in the Texas, for the most part (except for certain elements in Austin etc...), believe in personal responsibility, whereas in much of the US, we live in a culture of excuses and legalisms bred and inspired by a certain closed-minded (far left) segment within academia.

Yes, also quite close-minded and intolerant of contrasting viewpoints.
Oregon and Alaska are both attractive states and appear to be normal, especially east of the Cascade Mountains.

Well, with the exception of activities by the 'eco-fascists' (radical Greens or Anarchists-any difference?) west of the Cascades who would rather put hundreds of family providers out of work, in order to avoid the proven factor that predatory larger birds are responsible for the disappearance of a major portion of the endangered spotted owls, not just tree-cutting. Many large forests, as a whole, should be protected, don't get me wrong.

But Oregon, WA state and Alaska are attractive places to live, if we can assume that free speech and open debate could be possible, instead of eco-radikalismus :cool: (what is the icon for the Ultra Smug?). Alles klar dort druben?


Not sure how much time you've spent in the Pacific Northwest and Alaska so you may not be aware how technology put a lot more loggers out of work than the spotted owl ever did. What used to take a team of men hours is now done by a single man in minutes. I've found people like you rarely have spent time observing modern logging operations. You just don't need as many people as you used to.

Machines replace people. It's happened in factories too. When Chevy figures out a way to replace a hundred workers with a robot we don't hear much of an outcry about the evil left. Technology has hurt the loggers more than anything.

Good news is there's still a lot of money to be made importing and milling wood, especially from parts of the world where old growth hardwood is lying at the bottom of lakes and ponds waiting for enterprising businesspeople to figure out economical recovery methods.

The environmentalists are an easy target though so carry on mate.

Nicht so klar BTW.

chuks
11th Oct 2006, 08:08
The teacher in question wore flip-flops to school. That's it! Take her out behind the dumpsters and shoot her. Can't have our kids seeing authority figures wearing Jap-flaps. Next burning issue of the day, please!

In our on-going geography quiz here someone has just spoken up in favour of eastern Oregon, a howling wilderness (quite literally, thanks to the coyote, a very musical beast).

Well, if you like lots and lots of sagebrush and not much else I guess that is correct but 99 out of 100 visitors queried went for the beautiful Pacific coast or the very green and fertile Willamette Valley instead. Number 100 was dressed in cammies on his way to kill something, so that he didn't count.

I can speak on this one from a position of authority, having spent some of my formative childhood years in Bend, Oregon. Daytime entertainment consisted of watching the tumbleweed rolling down the street when the wind was up and often in the evenings we were treated to concerts from the coyotes. My poor mother, from back East, felt as though she had been plunked down among semi-savages there.

That was in the early Fifties, though. Who knows, it might have changed since then. I think they even build airplanes there now.

Mr Lexx
11th Oct 2006, 08:15
As you have said, the flip flop issue was brazenly missed off the first article. Had it been included, much of this thread would have not been neccessary, we would all have nodded sagely and vilified the teacher for her obvious lack of judgement.:p

One is liking noflows new personal title :ok:

brickhistory
11th Oct 2006, 12:10
Excerpted from the CNN report:

Her dismissal has stirred up familiar stereotypes of Texas conservatism run amok and the intemperate prudishness of suburban life.

The Frisco school board suspended McGee, with pay, on September 22 for the remainder of the school year and the superintendent has said he will recommend that her contract not be renewed. District officials have vigilantly maintained that the decision stemmed from separate personnel issues and not one child's exposure to a nude artwork, which has never been identified.

On the school district's Web site last week, administrators posted that "we have tried very hard to take the high road" and said they asked McGee for permission to make her personnel files public. In a memo to McGee dated almost three weeks after the field trip, Fisher principal Nancy Lawson lists performance concerns that include not updating lesson plans and wearing flip-flops to work.
McGee's attorney, Rogge Dunn, said he would approve the disclosure if the district superintendent and McGee's former principal also disclose their personnel files.

Dunn said he is reviewing what legal options McGee might have. He downplayed news this week that McGee accepted a buyout of nearly $8,300 at her last teaching position in nearby McKinney, saying the documents, which include parents' complaints about her teaching, don't reveal the reason for the buyout.


Perhaps the smoke actually points to a fire and this lady wasn't the paragon of free thought she's being portrayed? I don't know her, all the facts regarding her, nor what other factors are in play between the school and she.
However, the highlighted lines do at least raise my eyebrows. And as for the flip-flops, no it is not the end of civilization, but if she accepted the job and that job came with a dress code, then she is not abiding by her contract. That's an IF. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

the_hawk
11th Oct 2006, 12:33
One is liking noflows new personal title

:eek: in reaction to the posts in this thread?

btw did anyone explicitly mention the best reason for being glad not to live in Texas?...GWB ;)

Gone2Baja
11th Oct 2006, 15:36
I can speak on this one from a position of authority, having spent some of my formative childhood years in Bend, Oregon. Daytime entertainment consisted of watching the tumbleweed rolling down the street when the wind was up and often in the evenings we were treated to concerts from the coyotes. My poor mother, from back East, felt as though she had been plunked down among semi-savages there.

That was in the early Fifties, though. Who knows, it might have changed since then. I think they even build airplanes there now.

Chuks,

You wouldn't recognize Bend these days. It's been Californicated so to speak. Many Californians took their huge gains in equity from selling their ridiculously overpriced homes and purchased homes around Bend and Sun River. So now real estate in Bend is quite expensive and it's very crowded. The locals are concerned about the shift in voting patterns as the newly arrived tend to be progressive if they're from the Bay Area. The Southern Californians are more conservative and fall in line with local preferences to an extent. Much like Colorado in the early 90's there is a bit of anti Californian sentiment in central Oregon these days. Bend is not really eastern Oregon although it is east of the Cascades.

And yes they do build airplanes there. I can't remember which manufacturer is in Redmond (RDM) but I think it might be Columbia. Anyhow it's an interesting area to visit in the summer months but too cold for a beach lover like me in the winter.

chuks
11th Oct 2006, 17:42
One thing that you cannot blame on Texas is George Walker Bush. He was born in New Haven, Connecticut and spent his formative years in the North East, later being educated (?) at Yale University and Harvard Business School.

That much is on the record. I have to guess about the rest but my best guess is that when GWB turned out to be just an embarrassing dimwit f*ckup the family sent him off to a place where he just wouldn't do much harm, Texas. There he met a local girl whom he married and then settled down, giving up his rowdy ways and getting religion big-time.

With a lot of help from his family and not a little from the Bin Laden family he was allowed to impersonate a businessman, a Texas oil man to be exact.

He failed abjectly at finding oil in the oil patch, being the sort of guy who walks across the room to the light switch and then forgets what he was going to do, so that he was re-directed into politics, where he has succeeded beyond all reasonable expectations.

Just because GWB affects a rustic accent, likes to wear big belt buckles and cowboy boots and enjoys assaulting mesquite bushes with power tools, that doesn't make him a Texan!

I don't mind trying my best to start by slagging off Texans for living on stolen territory and then going on from that but I won't stoop so low as to associate Texas with this village idiot from Down East! That is just what his family want us to do!

B Sousa
20th Oct 2006, 13:31
I guess I will cast my vote with Panama Jack..........as I don my Flak Jacket.
Although so far I have not seen the Bible Thumpers here in the states running around with road flare look alikes strapped to their dumb a55e5, they can certainly be a pain in the proverbial.
Its also pretty much geographical, take a look around the states......

They are also usually the first ones to cry foul to the Mods on this website.....AFTER they get their say in........

152wiseguy
20th Oct 2006, 17:45
Anyone see the similarity here

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-22-robertson-_x.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/26/newsid_2542000/2542873.stm